#Adc anti tank items

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fossil prism
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Am a lower elo, trying to learn adc. It mostly just fits my play style but thats out of the topic. I just wonder after the removal of its passive, are lord dominiks ever like ever a good buy option. And what am i supposed to do when theres a 5k hp tank in the enemy team but my champ js cant build bork?

storm kestrel
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which champs are u playing

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and you can't really do much besides build ldr

neon viper
storm kestrel
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bork for ranged is kinda balls iirc

neon viper
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if its a bruiser who still has 3k hp while building 0 armor u are just fucked

fossil prism
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I overall only struggle with those things. They js REFUSE to sie

neon viper
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start learning varus vayne kog theyre the only ones who will benefit from the changes next patch

fossil prism
neon viper
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who fits ur playstyle

fossil prism
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Maybe kog, but still his ult is pure disappointment in my eyes

fossil prism
neon viper
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but only nilah really can deal with bruisers

fossil prism
neon viper
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jinx can with items but takes too long to get them

drifting sun
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like there is litteraly no other advice than to widen ur champ pool tbh

fossil prism
fossil prism
drifting sun
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any champ that u like, vayne kaisa varus kog

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try them and see for urself

fossil prism
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Kalista

drifting sun
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yeah but i doubt u can pilot her well enough

fossil prism
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Ill maybe give kog maw another chance😭 am not a big fan of on hits

drifting sun
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no flame she is just mega hard even among the adc

fossil prism
drifting sun
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maybe u can try kaisa ? idk shes kinda mobile and short range like samira and nilah + flexible build

fossil prism
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Tho when i think about it i doubt that low elo bruisers will be able to deal with nonstop dash champ

fossil prism
red mesa
# fossil prism Am a lower elo, trying to learn adc. It mostly just fits my play style but thats...

they are generally something you want to pick up like 3rd or 4th item in most games. Yes it doesn't counter hp, that's not why it's valuable. It's valuable because it nerfs your opponents physical mitigation from armor. Which even a ranged champ with 0 armor items will end up with around 50% reduced physical damage taken from just base armor alone (100 armor=you take half physical damage, without armor pen in the mix). LDR's % armor pen causes your physical damage to ignore 40% of their armor, this would put a 100 armor target at 60 effective armor, which is would result a 25% increase in your damage output against them (they would take 37.5% reduced physical damage from having 60 effective armor instead of 50% less from having 100 armor) The math is that you go from 0.5xraw damage physical damage output to 0.625xraw and 0.625/0.5=1.25 -> 25% more damage.

raw niche
red mesa
raw niche
red mesa
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kraken is flat dmg, and also doesn't give lifesteal (keep in mind to get 100% crit, you need 4 crit items, add boots and that leaves 1 non-boot, non-crit item slot, and no crit items have lifesteal atm).

raw niche
# red mesa 3500+ hp juggernauts/tanks is a prime example

even against that much hp i feel like kraken deals more more dmg idk if you said 3500+ randomly of if it's the threshold were botrk deals more dmg I would likely know if there's stats on this also you won't rly focus tanks you will try to dps backlane as much as possible so even here kraken does better. Also you often do those items in 1st and kraken is way better for laning than botrk and lifesteal doesn't value that much on adc if you don't lane against poke.

red mesa
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Kraken currently does 180 at levels 1-8 and then scales up to 240 at level 18, this is every 3rd auto, as it takes 3 stacks and it stacked on-attack, not on-hit (so rageblade passive doesn't speed this up)

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BotRK is 5% current hp dmg (both sets of numbers are for ranged champs)

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Kraken dmg is amped by up to 50% based on targets missing hp (so 270 scaling to 360 against a 0 hp target)

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current health scales down in the opposite direct (5% current=5% max against full hp and 0 v. 0 hp), BotRK actually has a minimum of 15 dmg (which is reached when the target has 300 hp left, 15/0.05=300)

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so splitting the differences, we can take the median values for both passives to compare (I will be generous to KS because it has more stats and use the level 18 dmg values)

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median dmg for kraken slayer passive is 300 (per 3 autos, so 100 per auto average)

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for BotRK, it averages 2.5% of max hp (twice that at full, none at 0 hp), this is every auto though

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100/0.025=4000

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higher than I thought tbh

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I think the fact that is has lifesteal is still pretty relevant because it covers your need for a lifesteal item and gives good on-hit dmg at the same time, letting you build 100% crit

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whereas, with KS, you are giving up either 100% (settling for 75%) or lifesteal item to have it.

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levels 1-8 the cross over hp is 70/0.025=2800, so considering duo lane xp and leveling, 3500 is a decent crossover for like 3rd/4th item.

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(KS passive dmg is based on your level)

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ohh woops I used the wrong numbers

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I used max dmg instead of average for KS passive

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baseline dmg is 120-160 for ranged, increasing based on missing hp to 180-240

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lemme do it right this time....

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median passive dmg for kraken is actually 200 at level 18

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so 66.(6) per auto
66.(6)/0.025=2,666.(6) (for level 18)

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median for KS (levels 1-8) is 150

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50 per auto
50/0.025=2000

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so actual cross over is like 2500ish give or take how late in the game we're talking, but keep in mind, you want to consider all members of enemy team, not just frontline.

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Kraken passive is excellent for destroying squishy opponents (and the item being a cost efficient stat stick in comparison further incentivizes it being built early)

raw niche
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keep in mind that Bortk passive deal dmg on % actual hp not % max hp

red mesa
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If their frontline has 2+ champs at 3500 hp, BotRK will be better

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Yes, but I halved it's values for that reason. it's 5% current, which will average out to 2.5% of max over their hp bar

raw niche
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oh ok ty for all those maths that interesting

red mesa
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yea, keep in mind, people think BotRK is trash now because it was busted af for years

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I think we had it at 12% for melee, 9% for ranged for a while, then ranged got nerfed to 8% but then it stayed there for a long time, then finally melee came down to 10, ranged to 6, and then 8/5 we have today

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8/5 is where it was for years back before they buffed the hell out of % dmg in like season 6 or 7

raw niche
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yeah that last nerf was too much

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i fell like 10/6 were fine

red mesa
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Eh, I think it's fine, what's not fine is that BotRK is the only % dmg item ADCs can build.

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they need like old giant slayer passive back, but not on LDR.

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Having that on the armor pen item made it way too good of a 1-item tank stat counter.

raw niche
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i'm not sure in whitch way but they definitly need to find a way to help adc to kill tank

red mesa
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they need a way to make their flat DPS better v. the tank without it going up v. squishies or were back to season 6 problems again

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the real culprit here is that the divide in effective hp between a tank and a squishy ranged champ is a giant chasm (and kinda needs to be)

raw niche
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I wasn't already playing in S6 was it that bad ?

red mesa
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so you have to give ways for the ADC to do more dmg to people who build defenses without increasing them dmg by the same amount v. squishies.

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S6 we had 2-3 ADCs per team every game, and everything that wasn't a support, tank or mage was unplayable, and even mages and tanks felt shitty

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ADC dmg could match a mage's burst combo, but keep going...it was insane that it stayed that way for a whole season....

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I literally figured out within a month that divers were useless and stopped playing them entirely and that was and kinda still is, my favorite class of champion in this game

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Like had too many times I'd dive in, land everything and then still get stat checked by the ADC...and lose

raw niche
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getting stat checked by an ADC sounds like nonsense

red mesa
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yea it was bullshit and everyone knew it, so multiple ADCs per team became meta (yes they were winning solo lane matchups then too pretty often)

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Now we're back in a world where ADC actually needs 3 items to be a powerful foe (like it should be tbqh)

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and some people are not happy because they remember what ADC felt to play as like when it was busted.

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Not only did ADC have giant slayer passive once upon a time (% increased physical damage based on hp diff, or enemy bonus hp, depending on iteration of that passive)

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but there was a rune that did the same thing (% increased dmg based on hp diff, Cut Down)

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so you could legit have like +20% dmg from item and +15% dmg from rune and those stacked...multiplicatively...

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(against a tanky af target only though)

raw niche
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i can agree with the 3 items to be powerful if you can actually deal relevant dmg to tanks and if I.E. stop being a joke item

red mesa
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IE is actually not bad atm

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crit itself got a major nerf a while back (from 200% of AD to 175% of AD)

raw niche
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3600 golds for less AD than a BT

red mesa
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the marginal value of IE passive is possibly better now than it was back then

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3600 does feel a tad steep imo

raw niche
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with an horrible build path btw

red mesa
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I'd be happy with 3400g again (even if the AD has to come down to 65 for that)

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IE has always had that build path pretty much, it's ok to have that too because it's not a good rush item.

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IE passive's value is a function of how much crit chance you've built.

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so it's generally a bad first item, but it fine 2nd and strong 3rd or 4th (number of crit items)

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This does create a bit of a problem for ADCs that want a balanced of AS and AD.

fossil prism
red mesa
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the ones that can stack tons of hp and got new fun ways to stack even more hp

raw niche
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again I don't know in what way but actual I.E. needs atleast a little buff I.E. that cost more than a BT and give less AD doesn't make sense to me

red mesa
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I think IE going to 65 ad but 3400g would help it quite a bit

raw niche
red mesa
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maybe 3400g at 70 AD would be acceptable

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5 AD is 175g worth based on long sword price fwiw.

fossil prism
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tbh from my experience the biggest issue there is is how easy it is to shut down an adc lead

red mesa
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in the past, crit did more on it's own, and so IE passive was worth more right out of the gate.

red mesa
fossil prism
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may be a elo issue but a 10/0 adc shouldnt die to a 3/5 tank

red mesa
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Like ADC is a 1-mistake can ruin your game kind of class in fights.

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They don't if they play it correctly, but that's the thing, it's easy to make a mistake and when you're both public enemy #1 and a glass cannon mistakes are often fatal.

fossil prism
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we absolutely need a hp shredding item

red mesa
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welcome to ADCs are expected to have hands to do their job. Like I said, it's an intrinsic thing about the role.

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we have one (BotRK)

fossil prism
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like idk make its stats mid but it deals more and more % max hp the more you aa

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like start with 1 but go up to 10% per target

red mesa
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They need an amp to their dmg based on like enemy bonus hp (i.e. giant slayer or old Cut Down rune) in the item system again and not on a pen or % dmg item.

fossil prism
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what elo ru

red mesa
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I've not played much ranked, but I expect I'd be in like Gold MMR if I did

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sites that estimate MMR usually put me in Gold when I've checked in the past.

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I used to main ADC for a few years because I was playing that role for a team I was on, so I know it well.

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been playing LoL since 2010 and play all 5 roles and tons of champions (bit of a jack of all trades)

gloomy edge
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ashe could be good, she's got on-hit builds and plays a fair bit like jinx? her slows are useful against melee tanks because they cant get to you

red mesa
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Ashe also has quite a bit of utility, which is always useful.

raw niche
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isn't ashe better with crit build ?

red mesa
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You can also totally do things like have a BotRK and then build full crit after and such.

main plume
fossil prism
red mesa
# fossil prism I asked if there was a way to deal w it with champs i play.😭 I can see ur very ...

Every ADC can build BotRK, it's just very hard to justify on some (meaning you need a situation where the passive is extremely valuable to warrant the purchase). In general as ADC, you want to min-max your raw DPS (for general effectiveness against a variety of targets, and even farming speed). So want you really want to do is figure out the most efficient core build and, how soon to build and what are, your best tank-busting options so you know what to build when. Which ADCs do you mainly play?

storm kestrel
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idk if they changed anything since

red mesa
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For Nilah:
Your Q passively gives you built in % armor pen scaling with your crit chance as well as free healing from post-mitigation damage (functionally equivalent to lifesteal for your basic attacks and Q) against champions. Excess healing from that also goes into a shield lasting 6 seconds too. This is already very good free anti-tank stats just for building crit, nevermind that you can stack that with getting BotRK alongside a full crit build including Mortal Reminder or LDR (latter unless you really need anti-heal) means that enemy armor is almost useless against you and your going to be healing a lot because they have poor mitigation against you. IE passive is recommended here as it affects basic attack damage and your Q's damage to the primary target.

Looks like Yun Tal->Shieldbow is probably the best 2-item core on Nilah atm, and this makes a ton of sense to me. Yun Tal gives both AD+AS right away and backloads in the crit chance later as you stack the passive from attacking things. Crit isn't that strong of a stat on a 1st item simple because it acts as a multiplier on your AD+AS dps, so you get more value out of crit chance the more AD and AS you have. This makes Yun Tal's delayed crit not a problem on a 1st item buy and you're getting good combat stats that directly increase you DPS with good marginal utility right away. Shieldbow has always been a great item on Nilah because she's melee and incentivised to build almost full damage with how much free stuff her kit gives her for building crit. Hence any item that has crit chance and provides some defensive value is always really good on her.

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Once your 2-item core is complete then you start option building based on the game situation your in and what you think you need most. IE is good for more raw damage (so good even v. squishy enemy comps), you get some % armor pen for free just for having built crit chance, so you can afford to delay LDR/MR a bit more than a typical ADC because of this (but you will generally want it eventually if the enemy has frontline that's building armor). Lifesteal is quite good on her, especially for helping her live when she commits to fighting, so 3rd item lifesteal is often not a bad option, best LS items for her are Bloodthirster (BT) and BotRK. Latter is your anti-health stacker option, if they don't have multiple people stacking health, BT is probably better overall (the shield passive can help you be even harder to burst and is especially good v. enemy teams with high burst). You may also find that you just need more defenses and can't afford to go LS item+4 crit items in some games, so don't feel like you have to get 100% crit chance every game. Later item choices are more about what lets you find success in fights than optimizing damage potential (though how much additional damage it can give you is not an irrelevant thing to consider either).

For defensive options resist+AD items are generally far better for Nilah than health items because of how much healing she can get (10 health healed is worth more the more mitigation of enemy damage you have; this is also true of shield hitpoints).

red mesa
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For Samira:
Q and R both apply lifesteal (2/3 and 1/2 effectiveness respectively, though your R can also hit multiple targets and will apply the 50% effective lifesteal to all them; damage against minions is greatly reduced, and hence so is the healing from lifesteal from minions). IE passive also applies to both Q and R additively, Q crit normally does 125% damage (25% more), so IE passive is extremely strong here bringing that up to 165% damage (65% more, more than doubling the increase in damage due to critically striking). R crits normally do 175% damage, which is increased to 215% (+40%) with IE (this is the same as for basic attacks). This makes lifesteal and IE extremely strong on Samira. Given then she does a fairly significant part of her damage with abilities, she cares less for AS and more for AD than more attacking focused ADs, hence most of her item choices will be AD+crit items and she actually often builds defensive boots instead of Berserker's Greaves (you get some free AS from E, not a lot though).

IE is actually pretty strong as a first item on her, but the buildpath is awkward and it's probably only good to rush if you're stomping lane early. In most games Collector is the goto first item and is outperforming alternatives that aren't rarely taken. IE 2nd is then the strongest option, giving a 2-item core of Collector->IE. Good 3rd item options depending on the game are: BT, LDR, and Shieldbow. BT is good for just helping you live against enemy damage since you leverage lifesteal extremely well and providing raw damage with the 80 AD on it. LDR (or rarely MR) is ofc the anti-armor option if you're needing to kill enemies that have itemized armor in addition to their base armor (this is probably the right move if you're dealing with 2 or more frontliners that have an armor item each or more, especially if your having to interact with them in fights). Shieldbow is the anti-burst option (LS doesn't save your being 1-shot).

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Often times you'll end up building 2 or even all 3 of those items eventually, with the order depending on how your game is going and what you need.

red mesa
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For Jinx:
Minigun gives a lot of free AS, and rockets do modified damage (110% or normal basic attack) but she loses 10% of her bonus AS. The takeaway from this is that, either you already have a (lot of) free AS or you do more damage of your AD and get slightly less benefit from bonus AS. In both cases, you have a preference for AD over AS (though you still want both, just that you want to lean more towards AD). This is further reinforced when you consider W and R have significant AD ratios (total AD for W, bonus AD for R).

Looks like Yun Tal is once again the top performing 1st item choice. This makes sense as it had 55 AD and 35% AS and backloads in the 25% crit chance (easily stacked, especially by farming with minigun). This also lets you build IE 2nd, and both avoid the awkward buildpath on a 1st item IE and still be able to get the passive and stats it provides by 2nd item, and indeed, Yun Tal->IE core is generally the best performing 2-item core atm. For 3rd item, I'd probably generally either want to get LS or % arpen in most games, maybe shieldbow 3rd v. heavy burst comps. Lifesteal options are between BT and BotRK, with the former usually better, unless they have multiple health stackers (read people like mundo, tahm etc. that might go heartsteel+want a lot of hp). Arpen ofc is between LDR and MR (former preferred, unless significant healing on multiple enemy members).

For later in the build, you generally want to cap out crit chance if possible and mostly want more AD, though getting 1 AS+crit item for 5th/6th item is fine if you just want more DPS. For this purpose, PD is actually better than Runaan's Hurricane unless you want BotRK since PD is the same cost and gives 60% AS and 8% MS instead of 40% and 4% respectively. (The bolts do not do that much damage and are only useful if you're finding that you can actually be in attack range of multiple enemies frequently in fights).

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In comparing the 3, I'd Samira will have the hardest time v. super tank frontlines, especially v. the more hp stacking kinds (your mundo/tahm type of juggernauts) who often have less armor/mitigation than full tanks.

Nilah actually has the best damage output potential against tanks of the 3, but she is melee and often prefers to be diving the enemy backline in fights, so it may be trickier to actually leverage her anti-tanking abilities in actual games.

Jinx is probably almost as good as Nilah at killing tanky opponents, maybe even slightly better v. high hp targets because of how much AS she can get. Her range means that you can often abuse distance to space out enemy frontline and get in a lot damage and remain safely out of reach of the enemy backline damage dealers while doing so (she is by far best of the 3 at taking a 'front-to-back' teamfight, even Samira tends to prefer diving in like Nilah does to fighting front-to-back).