I been seeing a lot of opinions about how tanks suck this season
#Tanks and their items are utterly pathetic
wild saffron
Can anyone explain a bit why this is true or not?
the op isn't explaining why any of these changes are bad, so if anyone wants to try to give a better explanation
oak anchor
tanks have lowkey sucked for a long time because they have the problem of no matter how fed you get, you can't just 1v9 your game because they are not a damage dealing class (same is true of enchanters). Giving a tank a bunch of extra gold doesn't make their impact all that much higher than if they had a normal amount of gold. If, however, instead, you give that same gold to a damage dealer, it has a dramatic effect on how much impact that damage dealer can have on fights.
dawn mantle
I deteled the post, will make a detailed version later
mellow cove
the only thing tanks are good is that there the team meatball that tanks almsot 5000 dmg per teamfight
no tank has alot of damage and none can really 1v9 (maybe ksante) they mostly rely on their team. u can pull of a 5 man ult ornn or zac or sion but at the end of the day if ur team cant
A follow up with ur perfect ultiames
B they dont do enough damage for the stun time you do making ur ult kinda useless
golden maple
The weird thing with tanks is they are never really ahead but also very rarely are they useless
wild saffron
I genuinely cannot understand how people think tanks are bad
you have access to some of the strongest items in the game
the hp stacking tanks just gotten buffed as well
honest relic
I genuinely cannot understand how people think tanks are bad
they arent and frontline is essential to good comp, and bruisers kinda explode if they arent ahead or doing well
wild saffron
and tank themselves are one of the class who are the best teamfighting class in the game
And just because you land a "5 man ult" doesn't mean shit
It's about landing a good ult even if its only a 3 man ult when your team can follow up
if you land 5 man and you lose the teamfight, that speaks more about your lack of ability to land your game changing abilities
when it is properly needed
junior mauve
Imagine saying tanks don't do much with gold advantage :L
It's such a low elo take lmfao
honest relic
tanks have lowkey sucked for a *long* time because they have the problem of *no ...
u can 1v9 as enchanters, u wont do all the dmg but u can create insurmountable leads where much much worse players will still always win
wild saffron
Imagine saying tanks don't do much with gold advantage :L
It's such a low elo ta...
EXACTLY
Enchanters and tanks (unless they aren't meta), can easily 1v9 games
Being able to disrupt the enemy carry is the best way to win games and tanks are some of the best champs at that
junior mauve
And just want to say tanks have not sucked in a long while. They've been pretty strong for the last 2 seasons.
Sion, Shen, Ornn, Zac, Poppy, and Ksante (if we can even call him a tank) have been dominating as tanks in both solo queue and pro play
wild saffron
And just want to say tanks have not sucked in a long while. They've been pretty ...
So true, especially ever since mythic items, tanks had access
to so many strong and cheap items that Riot wouldn't touch because of their low pickrate
junior mauve
Chogath kinda died in s13 s2, but he's always been the "i get fed it's gg" type champ anyways
honest relic
And just want to say tanks have not sucked in a long while. They've been pretty ...
shen sucks id replace that with gragas or something in ur message but ur point is correct
wild saffron
idk about Shen sucking, when xPetu did his Shen boycott it was never about Shen being weak
junior mauve
shen sucks id replace that with gragas or something in ur message but ur point i...
Shen has been in an amazing spot all season wym
wild saffron
But was about Shen losing his champ identity
honest relic
Shen has been in an amazing spot all season wym
hes neg wr in m+ with almost no pr atm
havent seen a shen in new split once
junior mauve
hes neg wr in m+ with almost no pr atm
what patch?
honest relic
current
junior mauve
He's at 51% in Master+?
honest relic
are u looking at lolalytics and not looking at the tier avg wr? lol
wild saffron
hes neg wr in m+ with almost no pr atm
Are you sure?
junior mauve
are u looking at lolalytics and not looking at the tier avg wr? lol
Game Avg Wr is 51.21%
junior mauve
Pick rate 3.5%
wild saffron
362 games
wild saffron
junior mauve
if u think sample is too small then u can look at d2+ and its 50 even
There's no way you're using u.gg which fails to record 1/10 of the games played lmfao
wild saffron
Use lolatyics has way more games then ugg especially during beginning of patch
junior mauve
U.gg either has a database leak or something because they're missing so many games of data
I have plenty in my own match history and my friend's that are missing
That's why I hate that website. Completely lost all credibilty after that
honest relic
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/923009762759696417/1242353889433485342/im...
now compare him to smt meta like gragas
wild saffron
lolatyics on top 
honest relic
with over 53% in 2 roles and like triple the pr
shen compared to other tanks is not good
wild saffron
now compare him to smt meta like gragas
I think any champion compared to gragas will suck lmfao
But if we are going to talk about Shen as a champion in relation to every other champion, I would say he's in a stable state
junior mauve
but no one plays gragas as a tank
that's completely neglecting the whole point we're getting at
honest relic
I think any champion compared to gragas will suck lmfao
ok poppy then
junior mauve
Shen has been fine as a tank, and tanks have been fine. I also did add poppy there. Gragas is irrelevant
wild saffron
ok poppy then
But if we are going to talk about Shen as a champion in relation to every other champion, I would say he's in a stable state
honest relic
but no one plays gragas as a tank
he builds ap health items and is unkillable
junior mauve
he's not a tank
honest relic
he is the vanguard class of champs and builds hp items and is unkillable, he is a tank
wild saffron
He has stats closer to a bruiser then tank, no?
junior mauve
Since when is building 5 ap items a tank
honest relic
Since when is building 5 ap items a tank
they are ap items with hp on them?
junior mauve
since when is building 1 HP item a tank?
honest relic
what do u think gragas core build is
junior mauve
seraphs cosmic rabbadon
wild saffron
It's RoA Seraphs Cosmic
junior mauve
ROA is optional
honest relic
It's RoA Seraphs Cosmic
exactly
wild saffron
But the only hp items that he builds is RoA and Cosmic
honest relic
ROA is optional
roa is over double the pr of seraphs for first item
wild saffron
Which is 650 hp bonus, versus any other tanks who would build way more hp and resistances then gragas
junior mauve
ok? so Lichbane and Stormsurge are 5x the playrate
And how does building Roa make you a tank?
honest relic
ok? so Lichbane and Stormsurge are 5x the playrate
???? where are u getting that from lol
junior mauve
I guess Tryndamere building Hullbreaker is a tank now lmfao
junior mauve
???? where are u getting that from lol
Global across all ranks
honest relic
roa is more built on him than stormsurge by far not even close, and more built than lichbane
junior mauve
wild saffron
Yall's argument is getting weird who cares what items has more pickrate
honest relic
https://prnt.sc/QtwFOJt2flMB
so ur metric is bronze elo
wild saffron
If you think building two hp ap items makes you a tank, then you need to explain that first
honest relic
sorting by all ranks means u are looking at 90% bronze silver gold
at least go em+ lol roa is built far more
junior mauve
What you think is core and what other people is core still doesn't matter because in the end, none of the items are tank items.
man you just keep wanting to bring moot points
you genuinely think, that building Roa makes you a tank?
honest relic
on its own no
wild saffron
I mean in the end, Gragas is only build two hp ap items. One of which one gives 250 hp which is way less then any other tank items in the game
The only other resistance would be like Zhon but literally every other tank items gives those stats + hp
junior mauve
Gragas isn't played as a tank anymore. Gragas is called a vanguard because he used to be played as a tank. So his kit matched vanguard playstyle perfectly.
Building HP AP items don't make you a tank any more than building HP AD items on a champ like Sett or Xin zhao doesn't make you a tank.
Gragas is an AP bruiser, or a full AP assassin right now.
He's not a tank.
honest relic
I mean in the end, Gragas is only build two hp ap items. One of which one gives ...
roa gives 400-650(plus a level) of hp, and cosmic which gives 250, and seraphs provides him its shield ofc which is a significant amount of ehp but we can ignore it along with starter item. gragas also has tank base stats. compare his base armor to poppy (a tank) and kassadin (a champ that can go roa/seraphs who isnt a tank), gragas has 38 – 123 armor and 32 – 66.85 magic resist, poppy has 38 – 117.9 armor and 32 – 66.85 magic resist, kassadin has 19 – 87 armor and 30 – 52.1 magic resist
wild saffron
roa gives 400-650(plus a level) of hp, and cosmic which gives 250, and seraphs p...
I'm p sure most champs have similar stats, tanks get most of their tankiness from items
honest relic
Gragas isn't played as a tank anymore. Gragas is called a vanguard because he us...
full ap would be lichbane stormsurge raba type builds he is obv building items that allow him to play front as well as do dmg (tanks can do dmg and still be tanks)
honest relic
I'm p sure most champs have similar stats, tanks get most of their tankiness fro...
theyre statted according to the type of role they draft into
junior mauve
I don't think you know what a tank is at all.
Because everything you described was a bruiser
honest relic
why is that
honest relic
Because everything you described was a bruiser
so you think doing dmg means you arent a tank?
and are instead a bruiser
junior mauve
Your focus was being a front liner who does damage.
A tank's main focus is being a frontliner who soaks up damage
wild saffron
Would you say Zed is a tank since he has similar base stats to poppy?
junior mauve
I actually don't know why I'm having this argument. You can go clown around, talk to gragas mains and try to gaslight them into thinking that they're playing a tank
wild saffron
Your focus was being a front liner who does damage.
A tank's main focus is being...
Tanks can deal damage if they are in the Vanguard class tbf
honest relic
@wild saffron assassins are given high base resistances compared to mages who build roa and seraphs, not sure how that means anything
wild saffron
<@342346772703608832> assassins are given high base resistances compared to mage...
That's why I'm saying that base stats are a weird argument to make
junior mauve
Tanks can deal damage if they are in the Vanguard class tbf
His focus was on being a dealer rather than a damage soak. Even while doing damage the whole point is being a damage Soak.
Everyone I mentioned is a damage soak
wild saffron
junior mauve
Gragas aint a damage soak whatsoever. He's in the same lines as every other bruiser who builds steraks
wild saffron
But here you go another champion who has similar stats
honest relic
His focus was on being a dealer rather than a damage soak. Even while doing dama...
his focus is more on engage and cc if u are not ridiculously ahead
playmaking with r or e flash
junior mauve
his focus is more on engage and cc if u are not ridiculously ahead
I don't believe that you're high elo at all. Either that or your understanding of RPGs and class vs role is warped
junior mauve
Ok, then your understanding of RPGs and class vs role is just fundamentally flawed. I'm fine with that
wild saffron
roa gives 400-650(plus a level) of hp, and cosmic which gives 250, and seraphs p...
Also you believe that building 2 hp ap items makes you a tank?
honest relic
Also you believe that building 2 hp ap items makes you a tank?
its 3 defensive mage items, 4 if you count him building zhonyas after, and his kit is full of cc and survivability
wild saffron
its 3 defensive mage items, 4 if you count him building zhonyas after, and his k...
What are his 3 defensive mage items?
honest relic
roa seraphs cosmic
wild saffron
Thoughts on Seraphine building ROA Seraphs and Rylais?
Or Swain building Rylai Riftmaker and Zhon?
honest relic
they are defensive items but its about compensating for innate low survivability and play into her liking longer fights, also swain is one of the best dmg soakers in the game so im not sure thats the best argument for u to make
wild saffron
So you believe Swain is a tank
honest relic
not really because its entirely abt his r
junior mauve
Again, flawed understanding of Role vs Class. He's not going to admit he's wrong lmfao
honest relic
gragas is literally the vanguard class
junior mauve
@white void This guy is a master shen main and he disagrees that building hp items itself is a tank. Apparently since you being masters means u understand RPGs better lol
Class vs Role buddy
honest relic
lmao, when did i say anything about rank meaning i know better? u called rank into question and then i said my rank
junior mauve
U called rank into question. I said I refuse to believe either that you're high elo or that you understand class vs role. And it shows it's the latter
wild saffron
So with your line of thinking Swain would be a tank?
junior mauve
You should take a look at an article about Class vs Role next time
honest relic
U called rank into question. I said I refuse to believe either that you're high ...
you said "i refuse to believe ur highelo" and then i said my rank. and u think that is me making a rank argument, no lol that is me saying ur wrong
junior mauve
I don't believe that you're high elo at all. Either that or your understanding of RPGs and class vs role is warped.
Comprehension struggling a little?
wild saffron
Can yall argue about league instead of whatever you two are doing 
junior mauve
Can yall argue about league instead of whatever you two are doing <:WEIRD:929546...
I am. He's not acknowledging that he doesn't know class vs role at all
honest relic
> I don't believe that you're high elo at all. Either that or your understanding...
"I don't believe that you're high elo at all." do you think its making a rank based argument if you say this to me and i say my rank? u think im the one invoking rank? lol
wild saffron
Point out actual flaws in each others argument about league instead of continuing this pointless who said what first
junior mauve
Keeps talking about Vanguard Class but doesn't understand the Tank role
honest relic
you realize the vanguard class is a subset of the tank role right?
like how artillery mages are a subset of mages?
junior mauve
you realize the vanguard class is a subset of the tank role right?
No, Vanguard is a subclass of the Tank class. Tank role is the role you take on in game as someone who soaks damage
honest relic
do you think gragas does not soak damage
junior mauve
With that build? He's not there to soak up the ADC's dps
He's not there to soak up any damage at all
the point of that build is to either body a bruiser, or dive and hope you disrupt enough
honest relic
With that build? He's not there to soak up the ADC's dps
he cant sit still and tank free damage for 15 seconds like a full tank malphite or ornn but he takes a substantial amount of dmg and has a kit with a lot of cc and survivability
junior mauve
then he's an AP bruiser. Can tank substantial damage, doesn't build much resistances, doesn't face tank DPS, but does lots of damage and has in-built sustain
honest relic
it is much harder to kill a gragas than ur average bruiser
he can face tank just not indefinitely he needs to also use his kit
junior mauve
it is much harder to kill a gragas than ur average bruiser
idk where you get this info from
honest relic
idk where you get this info from
gragas' kit has more reliable escape/disengage than any juggernaut and is much tankier than most all divers (divers are very diverse class though)
wild saffron
it is much harder to kill a gragas than ur average bruiser
Gragas bonus stats at 4 items: 1200 bonus hp +706 shield + 25 armour
Darius: +25 armour +55-125 mr +1400 bonus hp +1120 shield
honest relic
darius is immobile and his sustain is conditional on hitting q sweetspot
gragas is also loaded with way more cc
junior mauve
What are you even arguing?
wild saffron
what
honest relic
ur also ignoring item passives/actives for some reason
wild saffron
ur also ignoring item passives/actives for some reason
No?
honest relic
zhonyas and seraphs active/passive respectively offer more survivability than anything darius builds
junior mauve
yikes we're entering bad faith argument territory.
wild saffron
I included Seraph's but not Zhon
honest relic
What are you even arguing?
that gragas ttk is reliably higher than the typical bruiser?
wild saffron
that gragas ttk is reliably higher than the typical bruiser?
Despite the massive lack of resistances?
Just goto practice tool rq and try it out...
honest relic
I included Seraph's but not Zhon
seraphs shield is like 770 at lvl 14 and u handwaved w/ no mention of zhonyas / roa passive heal
and again his kit is harder to kill baseline, more mobile more cc
wild saffron
seraphs shield is like 770 at lvl 14 and u handwaved w/ no mention of zhonyas / ...
As I said I already added Seraph's shield and didn't mention Zhon. The RoA passive heal is like 8-20 healing per ability, no?
honest relic
As I said I already added Seraph's shield and didn't mention Zhon. The RoA passi...
its like 20 per second
wild saffron
Yes but 25% of the mana cost of the ability
So unless your q has a 1 second cooldown, that's not happening
honest relic
i mean, sure? hes also healing 7% of his hp every few seconds with no conditions other than using spells. it adds up
wild saffron
i mean, sure? hes also healing 7% of his hp every few seconds with no conditions...
So every 12 seconds (the cd of e) if you spam every ability off cd (which isn't happening), q heals you 40 hp, w heals 15 and e heals you 12.5 hp.
A single ability at this stage of the game deals like 200-300 damage
junior mauve
Xin Zhao: Builds 4 HP items and 1 tank item with an ult that blocks all damage outside of his circle.
Average defensive item stats: 1800 HP 50 Armor/MR with steraks shield for 80% of that bonus HP as a shield. Bruiser
Renekton: Builds 3 HP items, Eclipse, and DD/GA. Revive from GA > zhonyas in total tankiness and TTK. Steraks shield still there from his 1100 Bonus hp from items and his ult that gives him more HP. Has great sustain with Q. Bruiser
Camille builds Grasp with 3 HP items, hyper mobile, steraks shield, ult to isolate targets. Bruiser
Briar: Builds 3/4 HP items and 1 resistance item (DD/GA) with in built HP drain and lots of healing. Ult gives tons of resistances, and E gives her big disengage. Bruiser
Now let's look at Sion: No mobility, 1 shield ability, stacking HP. Builds tons of resistance items. has 1 reliable hard CC. Classified as a tank
Ornn: Has slow movement, weak mobility, has CC tied to every ability, builds Tank items. Is a tank.
Mundo: Has nothing but hp regen and damage. No mobility but MS from ult. Builds Tank items. Is a tank.
Nasus: Has no mobility, has 1 single target Slow as CC. Does tons of stacking damage, but builds tank items. Is a tank.
On the flip side, some people build crit Nasus. Crit nasus is diffferentiated from Tank nasus. Is not a tank but a bruiser.
Malphite has nothing but armor scaling and a built in passive shield. Ult is his only cc. He's a tank when building full tank items, a bruiser when he mixes with Malignance, and an AP assassin when he builds Full AP.
Gragas: Currently builds 2 hp items, a shield item, and the rest AP items.
Compare this build to his tank builds with IBG Fimbulwinter and Frozen heart.
In comparison to all of these champs, the gragas you're talking about looks like a bruiser.
honest relic
So every 12 seconds (the cd of e) if you spam every ability off cd (which isn't ...
sure and then add passive heal + w dmg reduc + whatever gets avoided by his cc mobility and zhonyas and we start getting a more reasonable picture
wild saffron
sure and then add passive heal + w dmg reduc + whatever gets avoided by his cc m...
We are considering kits now? Haven't we moved the goal post enough?
How many conditions are we going to add?
honest relic
We are considering kits now? Haven't we moved the goal post enough?
why would we not take everything into account? obviously gragas item buildpath doesnt look on its face like a typical tank
wild saffron
First it was building hp items, then it was stats, then it was the passive of the items.
honest relic
its everything combining into the character ingame but ok, lol
wild saffron
You were the one who defined Gragas being a tank for those reasons, not me.
But whenever me or Josu points out the flaw in your argument, you consistently move the goalpost
honest relic
You were the one who defined Gragas being a tank for those reasons, not me.
show me when i suggested that his kit doesnt contribute to how i classify him or that its only about items?
junior mauve
The problem with how you classify him, is that you havent really ever told us what you think a tank is
you just were adamant that Gragas is a tank. We took your defenses as hints of your seemingly sketchy definition of a tank
honest relic
The problem with how you classify him, is that you havent really ever told us wh...
id say theyre broadly classified by their cc and damage soaking, and tend to have engage tools such as malph r ornn r but not always
junior mauve
It's where you take the conclusion and try to find reasons for it rather than coming up with a base reasoning that led to your conclusion that Gragas is a tank
white void
junior mauve
but your idea of damage soaking is in Zhonyas?
white void
bruh with only one item that has armour dont mean you tanky
junior mauve
Tanks have always been classified by their ability to soak damage. That gragas build will kick you out of a fight the moment seraphs kicks in.
Meanwhile tank champs like the ones I listed before will still stay in the fight at the frontlines even at 30% hp.
white void
true dat
junior mauve
Because they can just live that long
lament finch
tanks have lowkey sucked for a *long* time because they have the problem of *no ...
That’s just a trade off playing tank vs damage dealing class.
Tanks have an advantage over, for example ,bruisers in that they do not nearly need as much gold to function and accomplish their role. This also means that excess gold does not benefit as well on tanks vs bruisers which is fair imo.
Could you imagine a tank that could also wipe out a team if they were ahead. What would even be the point in playing a bruiser at that point.
oak anchor
Imagine saying tanks don't do much with gold advantage :L
It's such a low elo ta...
gold advantage doesn't make a tank much stronger at their job. I never said tanks were weak, just that they can feel shitty to play (especially in lower elos where your teammates might suck at capitalizing on good engages). Tanks as a class are good and very impactful in skilled hands, especially with competent teammates to works with, the same is true of enchanters.
steel mountain
gold advantage doesn't make a tank much stronger at their job. I never said tank...
tanks with a gold lead become nearly unkillable unlike damage dealers and with their high base dmg also means they can slowly beat you down. defensive items are always stronger then offensive one generally in early-mid. bonus points if they get any effective ratios or dmg from hp/arm/mr. The whole notion of being entirely team reliant is something else im kind of sick of hearing too. you have just as much impact as anyone else.
I'm not really an enchanter player so i cant comment much on that behalf.
oak anchor
tanks with a gold lead become nearly unkillable unlike damage dealers and with t...
Sure they don't die that quickly, but that becomes largely irrelevant if all of the tank's damage dealers are dead. You're not going to whittle 3+ enemies down 1 at a time and win that 1v3. A fed damage dealer can actually win that, plus they scale into late game in a way that a tank's damage can't. There's a reason the team with more damage to champions wins the game over 95% of the time. Damage wins teamfights (you win them by killing the enemy, which requires dealing a certain amount of damage to them), a great tank player that gets fed still can't solo win the game, they need at least 1 not brainless damage dealer to work with the actually carry teamfights with good engages and follow up disruption. A great damage player who's fed enough can actually just win the game for their team, straight up.
mortal needle
very true, however if heres only a damage dealer who is fed/carrying then they are also at blame if you lose, every mistake (death usually) they make is a mistake for the full team. if a tank is fed (hopefully alongside a damage dealer) making a mistake, which is also dying, has a slightly smaller chance of happening. staying alive is important, if youre dead you cant deal damage so by that logic tanks have a more lenient but less impactful carry side
mellow cove
gold advantage doesn't make a tank much stronger at their job. I never said tank...
tanks can be useless if ur whole team fed the same way of how much times u killed the enemy laner
tanks trade high health, armour, CC for decent/low dmg
rose dawn
i disagree
mellow cove
there armour is difficult to shred but like all bruisers and close ranger they get kited
rose dawn
i havent read the thread neither the message explaining it, nor the conversation but as a tank player i finally feel like i can survive more than a couple seconds for once
things like bork vayne and 40 min smolder don't insta kill me in 3 seconds anymore
mellow cove
tanks only do enough damage to not do any damage
a tank in s14 is strong because of the new items and all the runes and the removal of lethal tempo
if percentage damage wasnt a thing in LOL all tanks would be useless cuz thats whats keeping all tanks above playable during laning
wild saffron
a tank in s14 is strong because of the new items and all the runes and the remov...
What new items?
The same tanks items from seasons before has always been strong
mellow cove
unending despair, (not too sure if its old cuz i didnt play old league) new sunfire raidan kaenic and more
rustic granite
