patch 14.10 changes (big for adc)

[steep solstice]

https://twitter.com/Spideraxe30/status/1785377265880072682
https://twitter.com/Spideraxe30/status/1785378215667589184

Spideraxe (@Spideraxe30) on X

Marksman itemization changes for 14.10.

• Phantom Dancer is being changed to no longer have AD and a passive but has more attack speed, move speed and a cheaper cost.
• Blade of Ruined King, Kraken Slayer, and Terminus are getting significant changes

Twitter · Apr 30, 2024, 6:34 PM

Spideraxe (@Spideraxe30) on X

Rune changes for 14.10:

• Predator and Lethal Tempo are being removed
• Font of Life is being changed to heal both you and ally after immobilization
• Press the Attack's damage amp will last until end of combat
• New rune that heals after a killing target, tuned for late game

Twitter · Apr 30, 2024, 6:38 PM

stormrazor is gone 🦅

[void brook]

https://twitter.com/Spideraxe30/status/1785377267922710866

Spideraxe (@Spideraxe30) on X

• Kircheis Shard and Stormrazore are being removed
• Rapid Firecannon and Voltaic Cyclosword are getting some changes
• 2 new components, Scout's Sling that deals magic damage and one that causes crits to bleed

Twitter · Apr 30, 2024, 6:34 PM

why the random adc item changes

[steep solstice]

they said adcs hate the mythic removal most and they didn't wanna change shit so they waited an entire split or smth

https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/split-2-gameplay-preview/
somewhere here

[void brook]

https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/split-2-gameplay-preview/

[steep solstice]

"our surveys told us that ADC players (compared to all other champion roles/classes) were the least satisfied with their item systems."

classic adc players crying into complete rework of their role for the 20th time

[void brook]

"Stormrazor is leaving the system once again since the hit and run nature of the item never really found a home on many users" TF U MEAN

[steep solstice]

but yeah 25% crit on adc items is coming back so

[void brook]

I USED IT SO OFTEN ON SO MANY ADCS

[steep solstice]

https://twitter.com/Spideraxe30/status/1785381719933153485 probably good

Spideraxe (@Spideraxe30) on X

English article also revealed that 25% legendary crit items are back

Twitter · Apr 30, 2024, 6:52 PM

[void brook]

Replacement of Overheal for ```Absorb Life is the new sustain option that aims to give precision tree users the ability to heal up off of lane minions and jungle camps in the mid to late game, with some lane sustain as a bonus.

NO WAY THEY'RE REMOVING GHOSTING FROM PD!??!!?!?!?!?

[steep solstice]

i need the exact changes asap

they can't just drop "yo we're changing half ur items x33" and expect an applause 🙏 give us numbers

[void brook]

In our new system, it instead gives an upfront 60% AS, no AD, and it no longer has a passive. This allows us to make it slightly cheaper and have even more movement speed

please kill me. What is PD without ghosting

[steep solstice]

60% as with no AD

feels like a worse runaans atp

[void brook]

Also most likely that hexplate is gonna be removed

[steep solstice]

literally 1 champ builds hexplate it needs a fat rework or just to be gone

patch 14.10 changes (big for adc)

[void brook]

welp I already hate it. I know I'll get used to it, but man it's gonna kill vayne and adc snowballing a lot

[steep solstice]

i have no idea how zeri/jhin are gonna exist with every item giving a ton of AS over any actual stats now

[void brook]

unless they're saying that crit AS items will have 0 AD and IE/BT will have 80 AD

[steep solstice]

i might be overthinking it but it just does not feel good

[void brook]

this reminds me of double BF sword IE age. I hated that era

[spare mulch]

holy shit

phantom danced with no ad

[steep solstice]

the future of pd does not look bright

[spare mulch]

into the garbage bin with it ig

[steep solstice]

it's gonna be a super niche pickup on like 2 adcs and maybe a roaming support or some shit, no clue how it's gonna be viable with 0 ad and 0 passive

[spare mulch]

fr

[void brook]

they're basically making a big separation between on hit builds and crit builds

basically meaning that if you go on hit, you will get like no AD stats, but some MS in return

[steep solstice]

i'm genuinely surprised shiv is untouched considering they fucked with half the items

[spare mulch]

I wanna see the bork changes

[steep solstice]

item isn't very good either

[void brook]

im guessing botrk is gonna be movement speed buff instead of slow now lol

[pliant grotto]

NOOO STORMRAZOR QUINN

my jumpscare phase rush stormrazor quinn jungle build is cooked now

run into lane with ult, shoot em a little bit and leave before they know what hit them

I always get "????"s in chat after these mini ganks

Horrible playstyle but it was funny

[void brook]

Jhin meta incoming

[spare mulch]

true at least we get the cool adc in meta

[visual horizon]

anger

😠lt gone

[paper kestrel]

Cho'Gath passive as a rune xdd

[obtuse robin]

I don't think Vayne will mind the changes, tbh, LT going away is going to make items that give sizable chunks of AS more valuable because you can't just lean on systems to supply missing AS.

[steep solstice]

SO MANY MORE CHNAGES

TABIS NERF, MOBIS GONE, BERSERKERS EVOLVES

NEW ITEMS N STUFF https://twitter.com/Spideraxe30 STILL COMING

Spideraxe (@Spideraxe30) on X

I post Riot stuff. I also work on the League wiki. I have strong opinions about Flash games and DragonFable. DNI with non-followers (too many people).

Twitter

@void brook

PD kept the ghosting, it's perma now

[paper kestrel]

Jhin's passive gives him pretty massive AD based on AS and Crit so maybe he'll go for more of a lethality build with some Crit items mixed in?

[spare mulch]

jhins gonna have a good time genuinely

[visual horizon]

jack of all trades with infinitely scaling items:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1075904699657629818/1235021737046052914/GMcboWOWIAAHXMv.png?ex=6632db1f&is=6631899f&hm=9c6b3b007c839b12cba8b2767eca13a71383a5e8110a22b70c872c51d2f6b819&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=550&height=311

mundo is so back

[spare mulch]

dude is actually crazy

that item is insane

[tacit rose]

Wooho more tanks one shotting me :(

Sion foaming

[livid mulch]

IE will behead everyone

[livid mulch]

is this an item for summoners rift?

[visual horizon]

yes

[livid mulch]

lmfao 💀

[visual horizon]

eh seems balanced to me

[livid mulch]

im thinking off sundered champs with that item

[visual horizon]

mundo at 5k hp will have 270 ad counting his E

thats not a lot to be honest

[livid mulch]

that item is basically meant to be played with sundered

if you get that item but you dont get sundered i will have to personally call you out for inting

[visual horizon]

so with this item, titanic and 5000 hp, mundo's autos will deal 470 damage (not counting activating E or hydra)

the 470 will increase twice with E's active and also that item's passive

[livid mulch]

its not good bro
its +100 gold for
FIFTEEN AD and FIVE PERCENT crit chance

for comparison 1 ad is worth 35 gold

draven will behead you with a single fucking crit

[frozen raven]

holy shit we're gonna thrive this patch

[visual horizon]

frozen heart + randuin's

[obtuse robin]

Sion's going to love this item even more tbh

[simple ermine]

Let’s hope they just change the entire game to be even more snowbally and bs

[spare mulch]

I cant wait for mundo adc

[simple ermine]

Just what league needed to be fun, exciting and interesting

[spare mulch]

while building all health items'

[gentle gorge]

ADC gonna be busted

[spare mulch]

does more damage than kogmaw

[simple ermine]

Idk why they removed preseason

[gentle gorge]

The only class that gets a free boots upgrade and tabis nerf

[simple ermine]

Just test all of those changes in pre season and not in between splits, pro play is gonna be a mess

[spare mulch]

adc is gonna be fun till you get one shot by a tank with the new item and heartsteal

and lord doms passive is gone so your bullets are just little pea shooters

[simple ermine]

It’s fucking over

[visual horizon]

new item + heartsteel + titanic

[spare mulch]

literally

[visual horizon]

mundo with that will easily deal several thousands of damage just in autos

[spare mulch]

who cares about fucking mundo getting kited bro has to just wait in a bush

[simple ermine]

I honestly think, riot is trying to ruin the game

[spare mulch]

kills you faster than annie

[ashen mantle]

Interesting they’re removing tempo

[spare mulch]

yesterday I would be more optomistic but I actually cant see a world where overlord is balanced

[slate osprey]

Not a fan of this patch, ADC meta is one of the most toxic meta's behind mage meta.

[spare mulch]

and they removed lord dom passive in the same patch like what

[simple ermine]

I can’t see a world in which league is actually enjoyable to me after this patch since it just feels even faster and even more degenerate

[slate osprey]

Giving ADC's too much damage invalidates the Fighter class entirely as they will be bursted before having the chance to even get one auto in

[simple ermine]

Which would be great for the game cos nobody needs equal parts damage and tankiness

[visual horizon]

i played mundo jg before the LT nerf (yes, mundo with LT, it was very powerful with Titanic) and once they nerfed LT my build uses hexplate with ghost so that i can stick to the adc

but now that LT is being removed i guess i'll just use pta

[ashen mantle]

Cycle of metas:
(Insert class meta here) I miss (insert class meta here)
Class meta happens
I hate this new meta!!!
Repeat

[slate osprey]

It's not exactly exciting to see Malphite Ornn draft in pro play only because picking Renekton is a one way ticket to uselessvile

[spare mulch]

I dont think itll be the adcs that are having the fun man, maybe but I think tanks are just gonna run them over

[simple ermine]

That’s not an issues cos they won’t pick Malphite Ornn but stuff like Ksante Ornn or Ksante Gragas

[slate osprey]

That is not any better

[simple ermine]

It’s still stale but leaves open more variety, since now Jayce is playable or ranged tops or even stuff like singed or kennen etc

Just not stuff like Renekton, Darius, Garen, etc which wouldn’t be too bad

Even GP could become Meta again, which would be nice

[slate osprey]

Why do they need to be pushed into the meta in the first place?

[obtuse robin]

Yup, this is why Season 6 was the worst season of LoL so far in the game's history

[slate osprey]

The reason they weren't meta to begin with should be obvious. They aren't fun champions to play against

[simple ermine]

Oh they are much more fun than Darius, Renekton, Garen, Sett or Morde

[slate osprey]

All those champions have obvious and clear counterplay...

I cannot argue what is "fun" for that topic is purely subjective. What I will argue however

[simple ermine]

They do, doesn’t mean it’s interactive to deal with. Same as yone is on paper a weak champ and yet he’s utterly unhealthy for the game

[slate osprey]

Is that I don't believe a GP, Jayce, Kennen meta is healthy for the game. Champions that deny you from playing the game entirely if too far ahead

[simple ermine]

Well, what’s the difference between them denying you stuff and a Darius or Renekton doing it?

They can actually mess it up if you outplay them, out playing a Darius or Renekton is in theory possible, yet they have so much free stats in their kit and pressure that it’s 99%of the time just easier to not interact with them cos you are far more likely to lose than to win, whereas a Jayce missing his ranged E Q or being melee on a bad timer is just free food

Same with kennen, once you get mercs the champ loses 30% of his strength, therefore they are far healthier to deal with since their counter play is generally accessible

Whereas the counter play to 90% of the bruisers is just to have more stats

Which isn’t the healthiest or most interactive way to design a class in any game, cos it’s just stale and repetitive and boring

[split stream]

vast majority of these changes are not good.

[livid mulch]

I care not if they are not good as they are meant to liven things up

My concern would be if they stay that bad for too long

[dark merlin]

idk about gp

dont think hes going to like this

er is fucked navori is fucked futures market gone

[pliant grotto]

Future’s market gone?!?!?!?!

[dark merlin]

yea

[pliant grotto]

Qiyana players boutta be sad about that one

[dark merlin]

timewarp tonic is also gone

[pliant grotto]

Eh no one gives a shit about timewarp except maybe toppy players

The early dirk qiyana strat gonna be nerfed tho rip

[dark merlin]

i like what they did with cut down though now its useful

[pliant grotto]

Not a HUGE nerf but slightly significant

[dark merlin]

do more damage to any champion who has more than 60% max hp

[pliant grotto]

Oh shit it is actually good now

Assassins gonna like that, even more one shot potential. (As an assassin poppy enjoyer, that shit boutta be crazy)

[dark merlin]

and the new rune you get some gold when you buy legendary items sounds interesting

[pliant grotto]

Wtf? That’s an odd rune

[dark merlin]

and this stupid rune i dont understand

for each different stat gained from items, gain a jack stack.each stack grants you 1 ability haste and gain bonus adaptive force at 5 and 10 stacks

[dark merlin]

wait no its not removed

[pliant grotto]

💀

[dark merlin]

futures market and minion demat is removed mb timewarp is in middle row now

[pliant grotto]

Minion demat AND future’s market? Qiyana players are sobbing rn

[dark merlin]

also they made pta so when you proc it you get damage boost till the fight ends

[pliant grotto]

Yeah that’s a cool change

I’m sad they are removing predator though 😦

My movespeed assassin predator poppy tech getting nerfed

[paper kestrel]

nope it's not

For some reason they decided to keep the most useless rune in the game but replaced one of the most useful ones on the inspiration tree (future's) with something that's kinda trash

[swift drift]

MY FUCKIN ONESHOT THRESH NO

[pure raft]

shen is so back

what else changed anyway

[pliant grotto]

That new hp -> ad item gonna be really good on shen

[pure raft]

potions removed too i think

[pliant grotto]

Potions weren’t removed?

[pure raft]

i read thi,,,s online

the 500 gold one i forgor the name of

[pliant grotto]

Corrupting potion?

[pure raft]

it says that it'll be removed

[pliant grotto]

Ah I thought you meant red pots/refillable pots. Yeah corrupting will be removed iirc

How tf did “iirc” get autocorrected to kircheis?

[pure raft]

kircheis??? lol

[pliant grotto]

My iPad keyboard tweaking

[pure raft]

so did they add anything for lane sustain?

[pliant grotto]

There’s a new rune replacing overheal that gives a little. Apart from that, just red pots and refillable pots or dshield sustain

Or whatever sustain yourself champion may have

[pure raft]

no more perma-in-lane nasus

[pliant grotto]

Wdym? I’ve never seen a corrupting pot Nasus before

[pure raft]

try manaflow + gs on nasus start dshield and buy refill 1st recall then if you have gold spare buy cpot

[pliant grotto]

Jesus that sounds annoying

[pure raft]

YOU CANT BE PUSHED OUT OF LANE YOUR ONLY WAY OUT IS DEATH

[void brook]

I meant crit vayne gonna die

[void brook]

oh they did? whew..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4bfc7WwPWU

I thought they removed ghosting because they said passive was removed

[tardy cairn]

Lethal tempo is getting removed?? Is it bcs a lot of champions are using it?

[simple ermine]

You couldn’t take them together anyways since they were in the same row

[simple ermine]

Futures market is useless too, minion demat is the huge one that’s removed for no reason

[sterile sedge]

Btw do magical soles give u permanent baron recall or im tripping

[sturdy canyon]

This item rework, in theory

should completely break Jhin

[void brook]

future's market is useless to those who don't use it. It was used a lot by junglers and item dependent champs

[void brook]

not break, enhaance

[verbal edge]

pta changes are net buff for panth right?

tho bork is worse on him now since he didnt rly need the attack speed that much

[void brook]

yep

[void brook]

botrk is worse because of the passive nerf

[verbal edge]

yh thats what i mean

i just meant the stat changes dont help him

[void brook]

but that doesn't matter much as he doesn't go it often anymore

[verbal edge]

usually my go to if i was hard winning for the sheer burst

then id go harrass top lane or something 🙂

[obtuse robin]

Cut Down has always been the best of those 3 runes for champs that don't tend to build health (all marksmen), Coup de Grace is the weak one in that tree.

[obtuse robin]

Naw it won't die, crit vayne exists because of the buffs to her Q allowing her to have good damage without focusing AS (and thus creating strong on-hit synergy), also W nerfs contributed to this shift too.

[void brook]

Crit vayne was around Qmax with essence reaver and stormrazor to hit and run with huge damage. It will die without it

Essence reaver sheen proc*

[obtuse robin]

You don't need either of those to make a viable crit build on her.

and with crit chance going up to 25%, you can 1st item bork now and still hit 100% crit at full build.

(old school vayne builds from like season 7 are back)

things like Bork->PD->IE core etc.

heck you could even go Lifesteal vayne if youre last 2 items are BT and ISb

That would be 18+12+8+rune for LS (38%, 43% LS w/ Legend: Bloodline) if my math is right.

[void brook]

Not talking about viable, just talking about meta. It's Qmax crit vayne is mostly going to die. What will end up happening is getting a ton of AS from PD for on-hit builds with kraken and guinsoo will become basically the only build for vayne

ofc everything is viable for all the adcs then.
It's just that any crit AS champ is going to suffer a lot more pre-3 items than they currently do.

[obtuse robin]

Eh, I think builds like the one I just described are going to be common, on-hit vayne is mostly anti-tank vayne and rn, we aren't seeing super tanky comps much (it's dmg meta).

LT kinda needed to go though, it was warping itemization because of how much free AS it was giving (rune was more balanced when the AS had a fixed duration and then a CD).

[void brook]

I've been playing vayne extensively this season and I've found that the only reason why the Qmax vayne took off was from the sheer amount of MS you got from storm + fleet alongside the poke nature, allowing a form of the old draktharr vayne build where you go invis, nuke with Q, then go invis again.
On-hit vayne isn't just anti-tank vayne, it also has really high dps and allows for more flexibility in build for utility.

[sturdy canyon]

it doesnt matter though

Q max Vayne is here BECAUSE of her synergy with energise and the sheen ER

[void brook]

in terms of damage output, on-hit is actually higher. Qmax crit vayne exised for the stormrazor MS, and with that gone it's going to die

[obtuse robin]

a balanced AD+AS+crit build does more damage against people that don't build much defenses been that way for 14 years.

[sturdy canyon]

Q max Vayne without those is just going to be bad

[obtuse robin]

naw W isn't work ranking 1st anymore becuse it's only 1%/pt.

Q was already not terrible to max 1st compared to W before the buffs, just wasn't as good overall.

[void brook]

Tf you think an on-hit build is?

[obtuse robin]

on-hit builds are where you stack on-hit effects (thinks like bork->Guinsoo's->terminus etc.)

[void brook]

it's been literally reverted back to season 5 vayne

[sturdy canyon]

Q max became good the moment they MEGA BUFFED her AD scaling on it

[obtuse robin]

This

[sturdy canyon]

THAT is going to be weak after sheen ER is gone

[void brook]

and alongside on-hit was kraken slayer :L

[obtuse robin]

It used to just get CD before

yea, KS is an on-hit item that just happened to also give 20% crit.

[visual horizon]

i just thout of crit garen with DD

since crit items are 25%, he only needs 4 to get that 100% crit 30 hits E

so 4 crit items, dd and boots

even better with zephyr boot upgrade

[tacit rose]

wait

[bleak sonnet]

arent they removing crit from KS

or was i mistaken

[pliant grotto]

they are i think

[simple ermine]

Not 4secs but 6 and yeah kinda

[simple ermine]

Nah there wasn’t one champion that would prioritise futures market over minion dema or cookies, they legit give you way too much lane value to skip on them and even then futures market is only really worth if you have a power increase of like 30% on one item and manage to mismanage your recalls, it’s a low elo rune, as in it’s meant to make your mistakes less impactful, which just isn’t good. Sure, I get the point of having a tempo advantage in pro play because of it, but even there cookies and minion dema have way more value than futures, cos they allow you to bypass certain problems in lane or straight up allows you to contest certain push scenarios and prio moments

[void brook]

Why are you always confidently incorrect? Always making baseless claims without an inkling of a source go back you up. I can already tell you that AD assassins like Zed, Khazix, Qiyana all would prioritize future's market over demat or biscuits.
Also, taking from the website leagueofitems, Future's market has a higher pickrate than Dematerializer. Biscuit only has a higher pick rate thanks to botlane.

In jungle, it's just future's market for anyone that goes first strike. That makes up a significantly larger amount of champions than "none".

[pliant grotto]

A lot of supports that take inspiration also prefer future’s market over the other two like pyke and some poppy builds.

Especially pyke though, every pyke I’ve seen either takes resolve second with bone plating/I forgot the other one or they take inspiration second with future’s market with I forgot what else

[iron shard]

EXPOSE THAT FRAUD

🚓

[void brook]

XDDDD

[paper kestrel]

I took it whenever I'd play Kha'Zix and Blue Kayn, earlier spikes for earlier deleting. Really good rune for early game oriented champs like assassins

[simple ermine]

Idk haven’t seen anyone in pro play playing that rune in over 2 years, possibly cos the rune sucks, it either balances out your inability to reset properly to have your items or it simply makes you win more when you are already winning, it’s just not a good rune, since if it was it would be broken

[simple ermine]

I mean, ngl, inspiration second on Pyke is pretty much useless since you don’t have any value in it. Let’s assume you take futures market, what else would you do want to have? First row is pretty useless since you want boots early, you can’t take tripple tonic cos you don’t have a significant spike in power except for levels 3 and 6, meaning you can’t make use of the skill potion and the bonus damage to minions doesn’t matter either since you are not the one responsible for pushing out, the one time you do last hit is when you have support item stack, but you get to execute them at 50% max hp meaning you don’t need that 5 extra true damage for push, the adaptive force is nice on level 6, but again, it’s one out of 3 that has some use. Hex flash on pyke is useless as well since you are already mobile enough and don’t need that extra engage. On the third row you have cosmic insight which could be useful in some lanes where you want to have more ignites up but by no means is it a stable pick, approached velocity is just useless since have a hook and a dash that stuns, which means you just don’t need that extra move speed and the last rune is time warp which is just a dead rune. In any case, going for resolve with second wind and overgrowth is just the better strategy, since you actively increase your lane presence by having more sustain, which is one of the problems pyke has. Yes his passive heals him a lot in the early game, but with second wind it’s literally a difference between a 150hp heal and 200hp heal, which is quite significant

[pliant grotto]

I only take resolve into heavy poke lanes where I cant engage as easily. I take inspiration second into lanes where I want to snowball and get items quicker

[void brook]

Spoken like a true non-pyke player, Lukas

[pliant grotto]

Also I like cosmic insight for the extra flashes and ignites

I used to take hexflash a while back, but nowadays I only take that on thresh and poppy

[simple ermine]

Yeah but do you need extra flashes and ignites in lanes where you simply can’t play the lane unless you have second wind? Or in games where you’d get disengaged anyways, no matter how many dashes you have?

[void brook]

what are you basing anything on....

[simple ermine]

Hex flash on pyke 💀 yeah let’s stick an extra machine gun to a tank while making the casing of it out of cardboard, makes sense I suppose

[pliant grotto]

I just said I used to take that when I was new to pyk

I dont take it anymore??

[simple ermine]

Oh the fact that it’s quite literally stupid to take certain runes on certain champs since it’s just committing too strongly to one part while not trying to cover your weaknesses, it’s legit useless

[void brook]

This is such a bad faith argument... this why no one should ever listen to you

[simple ermine]

Yeah, it’s just that the idea of it is outlandish as fuck

[void brook]

No that's not trueu whatsoever. Min-maxing is a legitimate build strategy in the game, and not acknowledging that makes you dumb af

[simple ermine]

Tell me, would you rather have a dirk 30 seconds earlier while not getting to play the game or have a decent lane phase and wait a bit longer for your power spike?

[pliant grotto]

I take inspiration second into lanes where I can play aggressive. If they have disengage like Janna imma just take resolve second. Also if it's a lane that I need second wind in, I will take resolve, how hard is that to understand?

[void brook]

what a strawman buddy

The point was taking future's market to get faster spikes. Who said anything about playable vs unplayable lanes?

[simple ermine]

Do you know what min maxing is? It means to minimalise your weaknesses while maximising your advantages

[simple ermine]

Well, you are making your lane which would be perfectly playable unplayable by taking that rune

[void brook]

Min-maxing is about minimizing worse stats and maximizing your best stats...

[pliant grotto]

Also in unplayable lanes, I'm still likely to take inspiration because earlier items means earlier roaming. If vs a lane that I cant get on top of, the inspiration is nice still

[void brook]

Yeah no one should ever listen to you. Always confidently incorrect without a single fact to support you. Why do you do this to yourself? Do you like being in the wrong and doubling down onto it?

Go google Min-maxing right now buddy. Before typing anything else and cementing yourself 10 feet under

[simple ermine]

Just not true, you minimise your weaknesses or spending on stats your champ can’t use, while maximising your pressure

[simple ermine]

Yeah let’s make decently playable lanes where you can’t force an advantage unplayable and roam away from it since that’s how you play league I forgot

[void brook]

and we're done here. You refuse to look it up and double down on being wrong. You can ask any WoW, League, Dota, etc. gamer and ask them what it means

[pliant grotto]

I just said in UNPLAYABLE lanes, not decently playable

[void brook]

he's doing this all in bad faith

can't reason with someone who didn't come to his standpoint with reason to begin wtih

[pliant grotto]

If into a decently playable lane where I need sustain but can still engage, I will obviously take resolve second

[simple ermine]

No lane is unplayable, not even as pyke, you just make your life harder by taking insufficient runes and playing like you could force an advantage, that’s a you problem

[pliant grotto]

idfk what it is with league players who love to argue about shit (This guy, dumbo, tbs)

[void brook]

Even DnD is a source for min-maxing lmfao

[pliant grotto]

High mobility lanes with disengage

cant get on top of them

[void brook]

He just loves doing bad faith poor arguments

[void brook]

This paragraph in itself just shows how confidently incorrect he is on a regular basis

and loves to have arguments that don't even support him.

Just all baseless claims for misinformation

[simple ermine]

Well, ask a rumble player if it’s min maxing for him to not pick up a mana item cos it’s a bad stat or if he doesn’t cos his champ doesn’t have mana to begin with and therefore gets no value out of it. It’s legit that simple, your champ can’t use certain stats in the game properly due to innate abilities, fine you just don’t build those things while trying to optimise everything else like uptime and damage out put, but therefore you have to invest some gold into stats that just allow you to bypass some weaknesses, eg. Assassins going a defensive item to not get blown up

[void brook]

I didn't even comment about it, because if he doesn't see what's wrong with it, then he's a lost cause

[simple ermine]

No you can’t, but you still have more value then them if you simply said sit back, do nothing, get your items and play for team fights with executes, again, you can’t force an advantage in that lane, but you have more impact later on

[void brook]

Assassins going a defensive item to not get blown up
That's fine to build, but it's not min-maxing

[simple ermine]

It literally is in some games, not every game, but then again, min maxing isn’t stale and can be applied to every game the same way, you have to adapt and adjust to the given situation

[void brook]

[simple ermine]

Tell me, do you think every champ has to pick up a certain item in every game?

Like eg. Jinx Kraken, Ornn Sunfire, Talon Profane etc

[void brook]

wow you're changing the argument again....

[pliant grotto]

You literally just proved my point. I cannot get on top of them, so I should play to impact other lanes?

In order to impact other lanes earlier, inspiration second would be better. In fact, if I really wanted to, sorcery second with celerity/waterwalking might even be better than resolve

Earlier dirk powerspike allows me to be strong enough to have more impactful roams

[simple ermine]

You could if you wanted to, but it won’t change the fact that you can’t get onto them at any point, just cos you have a dirk minute 6 doesn’t mean the janna tornado knocks you up for a shorter amount of time

[pliant grotto]

Exactly, so I ROAM and dont even try to get on top of them

[simple ermine]

Sure it does, but it doesn’t resolve any issues you have, it doesn’t resolve the fact that you will be starved off of exp and level

[void brook]

man do you even play league?

[simple ermine]

Apparently not with the bonobos you are playing against no

[pliant grotto]

💀

[void brook]

Everything you say so baseless and has a low elo mindset, it makes me wonder if you even play the game you love arguing about

[simple ermine]

I mean, your mindest is more damage more good

Which just isn’t true, not even on pyke

[pliant grotto]

Pyke is all about early impact

[void brook]

says who? and based on what is it not true?

you're constantly making up things I'm out. HF Lethal furret

[simple ermine]

Yeah try to have that early impact with HoB against naut or thresh without being blown up

[pliant grotto]

that's like the entire point of pyke. His executes are good lategame but he is an early game menace and should be played like one rather than just sitting in lane and being poked by a janna nado

If I cannot get on top of my lane opponents, then I go commit terrorism on other enemy laners

[simple ermine]

Cos you don’t get any impact from damage if you can’t apply it

[pliant grotto]

I had plenty of early impact vs a blitzcrank miss fortune bot yesterday

[simple ermine]

That’s cos the lane is just very easy for pyke to play

[pliant grotto]

and are you listening at all? I'm starting to wonder whether or not you are Lee Sin's physical incarnation cuz you obviously cannot read. If it is a hard lane for me, just roam???

Idk why you bring up thresh or naut here, but I can just roam vs hard lanes

[simple ermine]

That is valid but you also deny your team late game scaling by doing so, you just leave your adc behind and offer nothing to them except for damage and unreliable cc, it’s just that your champ has nothing but damage and therefore does stuff that’s just not winning if your opponents have a brain

[pliant grotto]

Snowball other lanes? Idk wtf you mean homie. If I get my laners some kills, that helps us win the game

[simple ermine]

But the lane is quite literally a free win if you just adapt to it and go after shock, cos then you don’t have the issue of being blown up, you can’t be proactive that’s still not an opportunity, but you can level out your weaknesses and have impact

[simple ermine]

If you finish before minute 25 that is

[pliant grotto]

Go aftershock into tristana janna???

That sounds such a shit idea. In fact, taking aftershock on pyke at all sounds kinda shit cuz you sacrifice so much early power

[simple ermine]

No, just against engage lanes where you can’t be proactive

[pliant grotto]

HoB worked fine for me into engage lanes

[simple ermine]

Yeah, we sacrifice 20% of early game for winning lane how bad can that be I can’t imagine

[pliant grotto]

Always has. I've never played anything other than HoB on pyke and it's worked out fine for me

Like I said, worked fine vs a blitzcrank yesterday

[simple ermine]

That’s cos your opponents aren’t aware of how squishy you are and that you just aren’t a threat if naut blocks every hook with W into auto on you

[pliant grotto]

Im pretty sure poeple know how squishy I am, I just blow em up before they blow me up because of my early dirk and HoB

Pyke is an assassin and is kinda meant to have high burst without as much survivability as a thresh

If you want a tanky engage support, just dont fucking play pyke and go Rell, naut, or smth else instead

Dont try to pull some hybrid shit with aftershock Pyke

[obtuse robin]

That's not min-maxing. min-maxing is basically another term for hyperspecializing: being incredibly good in 1 thing at the expense of not investing in other things. What you're referring to, covering off weakenesses so that you don't have many exploitable vulnerabilities, is kind of the opposite style of building to min-maxing (which in LoL, both styles have their merits).

[pliant grotto]

^This. I used to be a WoW classic player, and people in that game LOVED min-maxing so much

[obtuse robin]

Yea, some games systems are biased towards min-maxing being optimal, some games it's the opposite, some are in-between enough both styles of building make sense.

LoL is in the middle enough that both styles have a place in the game.

[void brook]

idk why but he refused to admit that his idea of optimization is not min-maxing

it's all about maximizing a certain output by being willing to minimize other things. I.e. maximum AD jhin. You don't go "oh no I might get 1 shot" and build GA or "I cant get in range" and build RFC. No, you build for the maximum AD stat possible because that's what the max ad jhin build is.

Another one is the FAST jhin build. You build as much CRIT + AS as you can to move as fast as you possibly, then secondary concern is damage output. I've experimented with Wit's end and guinsoos for that build and got more MS at a certain patch than I did from building only zeal items.

But of course he won't try and see if he's wrong, he'll just argue and strawman

[obtuse robin]

Yea, a good example where min-maxing can make sense in LoL is lethality builds on assassins.

(I say can because sometimes you need a maw or whatever to not get blown up for trying to go in)

ADC itemization through 3rd item is usually aimed at min-maxing DPS

which is why ADCs basically never had build variety except in longer games (or they have multiple viable build styles, e.g crit, on-hit, etc.).

[untold fern]

adc is back

[pliant grotto]

fr

[simple ermine]

Yeah blow up the Nautilus with aftershock and w shield level 3, it’s surely gonna work and you’ll surely be able to even get a lead in that lane that way, you definitely shouldn’t adapt to the given situation, it’s not like you ignore the entirety of why some players, even in pro play, are better than others, it’s definitely not because they adapt to the given situations better and know how to get the highest amount of benefits with the least amount of losses

[simple ermine]

Yeah I would definitely hyper specialise in one thing that is just useless at some point in the game and gamble that it will never get to that point, cos that’s how you play league properly, cos you definitely aren’t able to get more rotations of a bit lower damage off when you are a bit tankier, that’s just not gonna happen I assume

[simple ermine]

Because I can tell from the sound of it that it’s just a bad idea to begin with. It’s like the people in the 1900s that specialised in being horsemen cos they didn’t believe the car would make the horse obsolete. It’s like you have the opportunity to invest a certain amount of gold into one stat and the other part in conveying your weaknesses, but you prefer to only look at the parts you can do already without giving the rest a single bit of thought. Why would you wanna build full ad Jhin if you already delete everyone at 3 items? Yeah you could kill them in two autos instead of 3, but that’s it, you don’t do anything to make sure you get those 2 autos off, you throw a coin and hope it lands on your side and no matter how loaded that coin is, it might just land on the opposite side. Let’s make this concept easier to understand: let’s say your success in league is based on a coin flip and every item you purchase simply loads that coin relatively to the overall power strength, let’s say 100% per item and I will generally only focus on offence and defence, meaning if you have 100% offence on no item your probability of winning over all is 50% since you’re defence stat is 0%. If you opt to focus just on one stat, you simply load your already loaded coin even more, if you are instead opting to cover your weaknesses you throw to two a little less loaded coins and still have a higher probability of not losing, doesn’t mean your chance of winning is bigger, just means that over all you don’t lose. If, at two items, you have 100% of your offensive strength, meaning 300% of where you started, you still lose 50% of the time cos you will always lose on the defensive side, which is fine for high dps classes cos that’s what you need at least, but you don’t have to go for the all out 600% damage increase relative to your base line, 500% more damage while also tanking 100% more compared to your baseline is fine, it just means that you actually used your brain and adapted

Cos in the end you will still have around 83% of your maximum damage while also tanking about 17% more, which means that you actually get to survive a less optimal scenario, sure it will cost you dearly, but you didn’t lose, that’s the point of it, being an all out glass canon is a kamikaze mission, yes in theory you can kill everyone but in practice you will just die on your way to get there

The point is not to always win, it’s to lose less than you win

[obtuse robin]

Sometimes 1 rotation is all you need if you build for it. That's the point of min-max, when something like that is true, it's worth it to focus that to pretty much the exclusion of all else.

[simple ermine]

Okay, so you prefer of 50/50ing every fight cos you may or may not get into the position of actually dealing damage rather than having a way higher chance of at least not losing

[obtuse robin]

Depends on the champ, situation etc.

Often times on champs like mages, a bit more defenses doesn't buy you another rotation, and so it's functionally useless (similar to how GA passive sometimes just doesn't save you)

[simple ermine]

Ah so you agree that you actually have to adapt to the situations given huh?

[obtuse robin]

No one here was ever claiming that wasn't the case, but you claimed that was min-maxing, which it isn't.

[simple ermine]

Yeah, I’d rather get one shot cos I don’t have my zhonyas as counterplay to at least wait for them to burn cooldowns and to give me time to properly react

[obtuse robin]

and, much like GA, sometimes those 2.5 seconds of stasis don't do anything for you.

[simple ermine]

Nah it is, you actively min max your uptime and damage output, not over one rotation or one fight but many

[obtuse robin]

That's not min-maxing, that optimization, there's a difference there

[simple ermine]

That’s just the skill of using zhonyas, other than GA, which is shitty cos you can’t decide when to use it and when not

[obtuse robin]

min-maxing is a specific type of optimization (trying to maximize one variable, without raising others; i.e. hyperspecialization)

Sometimes zhonya's active is functionally useless.

[simple ermine]

Yeah you actively do that by building defensively since you actively maximise your one variable by giving yourself more freedom and time to apply that one variable, it’s like deciding between going for one strike that deals 1k damage or 2 that deal 500 each

[simple ermine]

That’s cos the person using it is using it poorly, not cos the item is shit or cos it wouldn’t be maximising your damage

[obtuse robin]

Or because the situation is such that the active literally doesn't save you?

Much like what happens with GA passive sometimes.

[simple ermine]

Why are you in such a situation to begin with? You are a mage, not a human ward

[obtuse robin]

You seem to assume that zhonya's can answer basically anything.

[simple ermine]

Cos it literally can

As long as it has a cast time or travel time

[obtuse robin]

Experiment for you to try, go back over say 15 games, look at every fight a mage was in, and ask yourself: was there a useful zhonya's they could've gotten off there? I think you'll find in a sizeable % of fights, the answer is: no.

[simple ermine]

Again, GA passive is shit cos you as the player spend gold on something you can’t influence

[obtuse robin]

I mean, you influence the passive by deciding where to be when you finally take that last bit of dmg (not possible on every occassion, but at least some)

[simple ermine]

No, that’s just wrong, zhonyas will always guarantee you 2.5s stasis, if you are so far out of position or did something so stupid that 2.5 seconds of time isn’t enough for you or your team to react to what’s happening that’s just a skill issue

[obtuse robin]

...use your brain. Classic case where ga doesn't save you is it gets popped and during that stasis time, enemy pushes your team off your position. Same thing can happen to Zhonya's active.

and late game, if you hold it there, chances are, no fight again before 120 seconds have gone by, so it's not like holding it saves anything for later.

[simple ermine]

Sure, ig, but that doesn’t alter the fact that sometimes you just don’t want the passive to prock cos the fight is already over, which doeanr apply to zhonyas cos you can just decide to not press that button

[obtuse robin]

Yea, you have less control of GA passive than zhonya's active, that much is true, but that doesn't guaratee zhonya's active is useful enough to justify the opportunity cost of building it v. other options in all cases.

[simple ermine]

Then don’t press that button and accept that you are dead cos you mispositioned, easy as that, don’t burn that cd

[obtuse robin]

sure, but the point is: it doesn't save you

sometimes that will be a common enough outcome that the item isn't a good buy.

[simple ermine]

Nah if you actually use it correctly with proper positioning it does, it just isn’t a get out of jail for free card

[obtuse robin]

and you're better off with something else.

mages especially have to really consider their options because if they just build for burst they usually maintain the ability to 100-0 1-rotation squishies whereas building for safety means not enough burst to do this during midgame, which is their time of peak relative power.

If anything, if you actually position well, you often don't need zhonya's active and the dmg buy would do more (again, not 100% of games, but in plenty of them).

[simple ermine]

Again, to me it’s just a skill issue if you don’t know how to use your zhonyas and sure if you’re boosted to your elo and don’t know what to expect you shouldn’t buy it, same as randuins or jak sho on adcs, if you don’t know how strong you are or how much you can tank just don’t buy it cos you obviously haven’t been using your brain enough to figure it out, or read item descriptions

[obtuse robin]

I know how to use, and in fact I use it well

I also know, because of that experience, which situations it's not worth the opportunity cost.

Just remembered a good example of when not to build zhonyas: when versing a competent Caitlyn.

she will just W under you if you stasis in a fight.

[simple ermine]

No that’s just not true, not against teams with a bit of coordination, the reason why you don’t want zhonyas early in many games isn’t cos you’d lose damage, it’s cos you don’t need it cos the active has no value, cos the enemy doesn’t have enough damage to kill your front line yet, but the same holds true for you, you want more damages to be able to kill their front line not their squishies, they will die anyways, however, if you have enough damage to kill the enemy frontline is when you start building zhonyas, again it just comes down to whether or not you face people that actually know what positioning and zoning is or not, an exception is heavy engage where you always want that zhonyas cos you can just dodge their entire pressure with one button, and afterwards you simply kite with your CC or flash if you have none

[simple ermine]

If she does that in any game I play she’s trolling cos she’s too close to the engage then and would just get one shot

[obtuse robin]

If you want to kill frontline as a mage you just build Crypt or void.... (and ofc never skip or overly delay hat)

[obtuse robin]

She can place those at least as far as her auto range (650) if not a bit more.

and what if you're a mage like kassadin or kat whose job it is to try and get on her and delete her?

[simple ermine]

Yeah, but that also places your Zhonyas on like 4th item, which is way shorter than most games, which is why it’s absolutely troll to build defensive before your 4th item as a damage class, not saying min maxing before that has to be offensive and defensive, just that you have to adapt to your game and that min maxing may just be getting a bit of defence if needed

[obtuse robin]

"that min maxing may just be getting a bit of defence if needed" Except that not min-maxing...please go read the definition of it....

that's smart, but not min-maxing.

[simple ermine]

Well, those champs are just unreliable as fuck anyways, they legit throw a coin, which is why they are utterly useless if you have at least somewhat of a brain

[obtuse robin]

(turns out league isn't dominated by min-max builds)

[simple ermine]

Well, yeah cos thatd be stupid, no game is the same, so min maxing just shouldn’t even be an option, it’s like predicting the weather based off of what clouds were on the sky yesterday, or how we measure a year as being how many spins the earth takes to circle around the sun, the one thing has nothing to do with the other, you should just look at what you need and what’s there to reach that goal and then adapt to whatever comes up on your way. Same way the calendar was adjusted several hundreds of times your league item build should adapt too, since they are doing the same thing, trying to make a tie between two vaguely related things, whether that’s the amount of days in a year or building inefficient items cos those have the highest win rate

Applies to runes too, just cos something has a high win rate doesn’t mean the rune is broken, or champion win rates etc, the one thing, being the win rate, has nothing to do with how well you perform on that champ or whether that champ should even be picked in that game

[paper kestrel]

This argument falls apart when you realize that the champions that use the rune best (such as assassins) aren't featured in pro play much at all, and as other people here have explained, faster spikes for early game oriented champions (SUCH AS ASSASSINS) allow you to play the game for longer and be useful for longer

[iron shard]

Lukas is unreal

[cinder sierra]

wondering wtf ill build on kindred now

kraken seems worse

[paper kestrel]

I've been thinking the same for Nilah

[scenic forge]

buffs or nerfs (big for ADC)?

[paper kestrel]

Since Navori is getting butchered, ER is kinda worse (probably still usable), and the only item that seems relatively untouched is Collector

[cinder sierra]

I mean Crit kindred will probably still be just as good if not better, but the onhit kinda suffers here I think

It was nice to go kraken first into trinity, word end but now krakens buildpath won’t feel great imo

[wraith pagoda]

https://x.com/spideraxe30/status/1786136505620009047?s=46

Spideraxe (@Spideraxe30) on X

Heal buff:

• Range increased from 850 to 900 (835 live)

Twitter · May 2, 2024, 8:51 PM

[simple ermine]

Don’t you think that the concept of having earlier power spikes such as an earlier 1st, 2nd, 3rd full item could be exploited and played around way better in pro play where everything can be timed?

[ashen mantle]

One of the changes of all time

[visual horizon]

jungle with heal spell

[void brook]

I wish he'd get banned for the ridiculous amount of bad faith arguments he starts. He actually starts most of them

not to mention the severe amount of misinformation and whataboutism he spreads

[iron shard]

Unfortunately #953796890095411281 is territory that mods do not often visit

[split stream]

fascinating person.

[simple ermine]

Nah I just don’t consent to whatever point you trying to make, if certain things just don’t make sense except for one scenario in one soloq game they aren’t correct, doesn’t mean they are necessarily wrong, just that they aren’t correct, it’s like saying player XY in my soloq game is a good player cos he has a 70% wr, they aren’t good, they are better than you are but being better than garbage still leaves you at trash level. You are looking through your point of view and try to justify things based off of what you know, whereas another point of view might disagree with you. Imo it just doesn’t make sense to look at soloq to compare power levels Hof champions, everything can work there, whereas pro play leaves you with way less options since everything is controlled and you get to have a good look as to how strong certain champs are if you actually play correctly

[iron shard]

So true king, pro play is the determining factor for what is strong in soloQ.

[paper kestrel]

Looking exclusively at proplay to see what's strong is a very stupid outlook when we're talking about soloq

For example: K'Sante and Azir are both really good champions in almost exclusively pro play because their abilities work well in coordinated teams that have comms and such, but they're bad in soloq because of the lack of coordination (along with the fact that proplay jail champs get reworked and nerfed every other patch lol)

[simple ermine]

For me it is cos it basically means certain champs are too strong in their current state

[void brook]

He unironically said "I don't consent to the point you make." Yeah, 100% bad faith arguments. Even when he's straight out lying he'll double down and back it up.

[void brook]

Lying or weaponized ignorance, I don't care. After that min-max "conversation", it's obvious that Lukas doesn't care about facts whatsoever. He base everything on false premises that were derived in biased shower thoughts and anecdotes based off of what seems like 1 or 2 games.

You are looking through your point of view and try to justify things based off of what you know, whereas another point of view might disagree with you.
Is hilariously a self-aware wolves moment. Constantly basing things off of what he thinks he knows while denying every other point of view or the facts that exists in order to feel correct. It's not even like he tries considering another's points. He just circumvents the argument by either taking a strawman, moving the goalposts, or ignoring it altogether.

Lukas, you're a hypocritical liar and don't do a single drop of proper research or study to back up your claims. You're basically the League version of the Reddit Armchair Psychologist.

[native stump]

1. what's a reddit armchair psychologist or do you just mean literally what it says on the tin.

2. it seems more like a player that treats only the highest level of play and disregards everything else. no need to attack the person.

[void brook]

1. It's pretty much what it sounds like. Someone who sits at home and gives diagnosis and advice to other people without really any basis or qualification.

2. No it's not. There's so much of his "discussions" throughout the league serious posts. He always starts up an argument, most often in bad faith.

[paper kestrel]

I mean, at least his name isn't lying

[void brook]

It's nearly always just spoken in confidence without a shred of evidence. What he said was that no champion builds Future's market, but dematerializer and biscuit was better in response to me. I told him there's plenty of champions that went it, especially junglers. Then he kept bringing up pro-play and random crap into it lmfao

[void brook]

The problem is when he's not arguing about opinions, such as the term min-max and whether or not future's market was used

[lavish kernel]

collector sucks on nilah nowadays

doesn't feel good as a rush anymore

ie will be incredibly strong on nilah, she is also getting a lot of power in the patch cuz of getting more crit + she will be able to buy 1 non crit item without consequence

she will be turbo strong with the new bt i feel. and spike incredibly hard at 2 items with shieldbow ie prob

[simple ermine]

Because I don’t regard anything as valid that doesn’t have its basis in pro play. In pro play Futures market isn’t used because the runes has no value compared to any other rune in that tree, therefore it’s not a loss that the rune is gone since it actually doesn’t influence the game at all, at least not the part of the game that matters and for which the game should be balanced

[paper kestrel]

Okay well let's steer away from pro, how will futures market being removed affect the other 99.9999999% of the player base?

We're talking from a soloQ perspective here

[simple ermine]

Why would it matter? Like honestly nobody cares about your points in an online game with no impact on your life whatsoever, however, riot does care about their game being entertaining to watch and about there being a certain style of play in it, which is somewhat close to so low but entirely different, since they actually make money cos of it, sure they also make money through you and by you buying skins if you decide to do so, but that isn’t influenced by you winning or losing but rather if you like the champ or not and if the skin looks nice or not

[void brook]

Riot makes more money from skins than through tournaments. Tournaments run just about at even. Rarely do they profit much more than its running costs.

[paper kestrel]

It matters because the 99.999999% of the player base is what actually makes Riot money, if they don't find the game satisfying to play due to balance changes and things being removed, they're gonna leave and Riot will make less money

The game isn't about being entertaining to watch, it's about being entertaining to play

[void brook]

And skin sales are heavily influenced by buffs and nerfs as well :L

[paper kestrel]

It's a video game first and foremost, a form of media and entertainment that can be interacted with. If people don't find that form of media fun/entertaining to interact with, such as due to decisions the team behind the game makes, then the team will be making less money

Yes, pro play is ginormous, and league is the number one pro game in the entire pro gamer industry, but it's not meant to make profit, it's meant to bring more players in to play the game so Riot makes money from the players

[lavish kernel]

They make profits off of tournaments, at the least they will barely break even from only the tourney itself but the publicity after it brings in a lot more

[simple ermine]

Well, that’s your point of view as someone that focuses on playing the game itself, riot doesnt, riot needs to keep their stable customers at hand, who dont care if their champ is strong they just want cool skins

[lavish kernel]

Hosting large tournaments is one of the best ways to gain popularity for your game which elads to more profits

[void brook]

Oh and in Worlds 2023 main event, they played exactly 3 AD assassins: Pyke, Nocturne, and Khazix. I guess AD assassins wouldn't affect the game at all if they were all deleted right? Not to mention they played future's market for kha lmfao

[simple ermine]

Ah yeah 3 games out of 80 what a nice quota

[void brook]

exactly, so the tournament brings people to the game, which is the main focus and source of revenue. The tournament itself doesn't bring much revenue.

[lavish kernel]

pro play is definitely atleast 20% of the revenue

I don't tihnk u realize how big pro play is in some countries. People love to watch pro play and LOL pro play is the most watched thing on twitch when it goes on

[void brook]

so them improving the state of solo queue is 10x more important than in pro play

[lavish kernel]

They are improving solo queue currently with vanguard and 14.10

[simple ermine]

But then you just kill your pro scene by improving soloq over pro play

[void brook]

which is also proved by Riot's prioritization towards solo queue than pro play. It just happens that they have been skewed towards high elo rather than low elo, or vice versa quite often

[lavish kernel]

pro scene will just go stale

if there is no incentive to get to high elo people will stop playing soloq and people will just pick the same meta champs

[void brook]

Current MSI picks and bans are so much more fun thanks to solo queue buffs and nerfs

We're getting FNC vs TES close games as well as LLL vs TES

[void brook]

you think the incentive of high elo is the pro scene?

[lavish kernel]

most peoples incentive to hit high elo is to either play pro scene or play in high elo to flex

[void brook]

who is this "most people"

[lavish kernel]

if the high elo scene is just stale same 4 champs cuz it's balanced around low elo then people wouldn't care about high elo

[simple ermine]

Loud vs TES wasn’t close, FNC griefed game 1 completely minute 1 by not lane swapping etc, the game isn’t more fun, it’s just that you have new ways of playing the game due to riot adjusting systems while not thinking about what happens in pro scene

[void brook]

So new ways of playing the game isn't fun, but the game being the same 4 champions is stale?

[lavish kernel]

if riot would balance around low elo high elo would be the same champs every game yes?

[simple ermine]

No it’s fun to see new stuff, for a few games, not every game tho

[lavish kernel]

specific championis are balanced around being at 46-47% wr cuz they are so potent in high elo...

would be so fun seeing azir every game mid oh boy and zeri bot

welp my team didnt get azir or zeri gg guys !

[native stump]

just to point out on this assassins are meant to be specialist picks and not something commonly drafted. soloqueue just lets the player engage in w/e form of gameplay they want where it largely doesnt matter :)

[lavish kernel]

assassins are also easily countered in pro play

[paper kestrel]

How is it not fun to see new stuff every game? It would make the game more interesting to watch and would expose new people to the game to more than just the same 20 pro meta champs

[lavish kernel]

riot literally tries to make the pro meta not be stale too ^

[simple ermine]

Yeah exactly it doesn’t matter what you do, soloq is just a useless stat, you won’t be able to pay for food with your LP, assassins are just not a viable role because the champs themselves are too bad

[native stump]

that's where you're wrong with "soloqueue being a useless stat."

[lavish kernel]

assassins have always been viable

easiest class to play easiest class to counter hence why bad in pro

[paper kestrel]

Assassins are better in soloq than in pro because the class thrives in uncoordinated chaos, which is exactly what soloQ is

[simple ermine]

Cos you completely screw over any type of draft adaptation by having those things implemented. Right now Blue Side is completely OP, the advantage of Red Side has always been the R5 counter pick, which you can’t do anymore, at least not for top lane since you will get lane swapped on, so you basically have to R5 Mid to get any value out of it, which means the enemy can just B1/B3 mid lane and you are completely screwed

[lavish kernel]

pro play games have low kills which don't let assassins snowball, a class that doesn't scale so they get outscaled in low kill games

[simple ermine]

How does soloq influence your life?

[lavish kernel]

what does assassins have to do with draft order

[void brook]

How does playing the damn game affect your perception of how the game's state is?

[simple ermine]

That’s what new stuff does to league pro scene

[lavish kernel]

assassins have never been meta in pro scene

why would it matter how assassins are doing to effect draft order in pro scene

[native stump]

~~ Except leblanc but she's a special case ~~

[lavish kernel]

her and k6 are special exceptions honestly, they function as disruptors well

[simple ermine]

Cos I simply don’t like the direction league is headed, since it’s less knowledge and more micro skill

[void brook]

again, based on what?

[lavish kernel]

macro is easy to teach which is why pro play is becoming more mechanical skill based?

[native stump]

You're stupid if you think that we're going back to old league lol

[lavish kernel]

also if anything league is becoming more game knowledge based

[void brook]

Macro and micro are both still extremely important, as we can see in games with T1

[simple ermine]

Leblanc is theoretically not even considered an Assassin by Riot, however, she’s mainly picked cos she has so much early and mid game pressure and has the potential to play the map other than most assassins

[paper kestrel]

What the fuck is she then if not an assassin? A mage?

[lavish kernel]

burst mage

[void brook]

she's literally an assassin mage which got taken into its own class called burst mage

Burst mage IS assasssin mage

[lavish kernel]

she's more of an assassin mage than burst mage cuz burst mages typically are immobile

[native stump]

Leblanc is an assassin first and foremost, she just has mage-like qualities similar to ahri

[simple ermine]

Well, just look at how many mistakes even the top level teams make when playing lane swaps, how many times they are off timer, etc. which simply comes from the fact that they didnt have to learn it until now

[native stump]

which as you can guess, is also not too uncommon in the professional scene, except ahri focuses more on the mage aspect. :)

[simple ermine]

Annie, the child assassin 💀

[lavish kernel]

ahri is more of a jack of trades rn though so kinda bad analogy

[native stump]

more about the history of the champ but fair enough

[lavish kernel]

bring back old ahri pls

[void brook]

that takes practice to get down so perfectly. If you don't practice a strat for 2 years, I'd think damn well you'd make mistakes.

Tell me what about Annie's playstyle isn't like an assassin?
she literally plays like Fiddlesticks

[lavish kernel]

EVERY single top level team makes massive mistakes still, it's a lot more difficult to play perfectly when you are nervous in a tournament and on stage

[simple ermine]

It’s been 8 years and yeah, but it just shows how much more micro and how much less macro focused league has become over the years, a current league pro player needs to know half of what someone had to know 8 years ago, back then there where even two different styles of lane swaps, different last hitting patterns etc, they don’t need that anymore, since riot tool all those things away by heavily overbuffing early game with platings and early drakes

[native stump]

?

[simple ermine]

She’s in the same class ass Leblanc tho, as in the game calls her and Leblanc both burst mages

[native stump]

like actually

[void brook]

no it doesn't??? it shows how the meta shifts and that you constantly have to learn new macro

[void brook]

Well thanks for agreeing with me ig

Macro has changed heavily with grubs, herald, tower platings, and gold bounty since before

[native stump]

idk if you wanted a genuine answer to this but the difference is mobility but you already know this.

[void brook]

her playstyle is still go for 1 shot combo, which was the point

[simple ermine]

No, it would be nice if you had to, but no, your game plan and macro hasn’t changed, all that has changed is the execution and the impact it has, right now one early game mistake makes you lose the game cos of how snowbally the game is, even in pro play, back then you could legit take 3 turrets on top and bot lane and nobody cared cos you’d still have to scale to 3 items to reliably win games

[lavish kernel]

Dura patch simple

[void brook]

See this is the problem with you. How can you say that your gameplan and macro hasn't changed when you say back then you'd "take 3 turrets on top and bot lane and nobody cared cos you’d still have to scale to 3 items to reliably win games"

[native stump]

you do understand back then people were worse compared to now

[lavish kernel]

There is currently way too much damage in the game, but snowballing is only strong now because of it.

[void brook]

Those are two different game plans and strategies. Not to mention people have gotten MASSIVELY better at leveraging small differences in leads

[native stump]

and didn't really think about like the substantial gold-lead that is and stuff. the past is always filled with lower quality games/things

[lavish kernel]

Old league players suck compared to league players today lmao

[void brook]

in fact T1 was revolutionary for being so good at macro

[lavish kernel]

Being gm in like season 4-5 is like emerald now

[native stump]

gm didnt exist back then

[lavish kernel]

whatever the rank equivalent

[native stump]

masters/d1

[lavish kernel]

when was chall/gm even released

[void brook]

chally was since s2 I think?

[lavish kernel]

^

[native stump]

chall was released in season 3, masters was s4 gm was like 2019 iirc

[lavish kernel]

I feel like the 3 apex tiers have been around for a long time

[native stump]

dont take my word for it and fact check it its just going off memory atm

[lavish kernel]

Theres no way gm was 2019

[native stump]

2018

[lavish kernel]

huh weird

[native stump]

yeah... old ladder has some very real bottlenecking that the current system doesnt have

[lavish kernel]

the whole ladder needs to be shifted down imo

[native stump]

wdym

[lavish kernel]

new accs have been starting like g1 with high plat mmr for like 2 yrs now instead of the old bronze with high silver/low gold mmr

[void brook]

imaqtpie top 70

[lavish kernel]

I have friends who are brand new to mobas and have hit plat in league while inting every game

old players who have been slowly climbing over the years are now in very low quality games from gold-plat

I played a few games recently on a gold account and a high bronze account and the games on the bronze account were also more difficult and the players seemed better overall which is just sad

[native stump]

That really feels like an oversight on how seeding works.

if what you say is true.

[lavish kernel]

It's being changed soon (may have already been changed) they spoke about it recently.

I had a hellenwong account have negative wr in promos(2-3) and negative wr at 15(7-8 iirc) games climb to plat2 from g1 starting placement

full fresh accout, it got banned aftrer like 20 games too cuz it's clearly botted

[simple ermine]

Cos your game plan is still the same, it just happens faster than back then

[native stump]

what???

[native stump]

ouch. hopefully that doesnt come back to bite you in the arse.

[simple ermine]

The plan hasn’t changed it’s still getting your carries to 3 items, it’s just that those 3 items don’t require you to take 3 turrets and some kills but just whatever is there, cos there has been so much gold added to the game

[wraith pagoda]

Ie rush nilah

With bt ldr

[lavish kernel]

ldr is so giga bait for nilah players xd

[paper kestrel]

How is it gigabait? Nilah loves having armor pen so an item that gives both crit and armor pen goes hard

[native stump]

i'd only consider it much later, nilah likes flat over % more since she gets % innately from her qp

[simple ermine]

It’s like putting a rocket launcher on a tank, yes it works but no you don’t need it, especially now that the giant slayer passive is gone

[pliant grotto]

It was pretty good before against pure tanks like Ornn, but with giant slayer passive gone, idk if it’s worth anymore

[simple ermine]

Giant slayer being gone is quite literally a problem for game balance cos of how much damage tanks are dealing rn

Cos you are facing the problem of tanks having too much damage due to their items getting buffed with the reasoning that tanks die faster and don’t get as many rotations off, whereas now they just deal more damage due to not dying as fast and therefore they and their damage will be indirectly buffed

[mossy notch]

adc patch as usual wish we had some variety

[simple ermine]

Nah it’s fine if we just agree that assassins shouldn’t exist

[paper kestrel]

Assassins shouldn't exist? What?

[native stump]

"Tanks are doing too much damage cause their items got buffed"

What even is this correlation, sure some tanks have armor/mr scalings, some get hp scalings on abilities that dont often translate to damage.

tanks dont die faster, if youre being hammered by 4-5 people you should explode just like anyone else. Tanks damage feels high to anyone who doesnt build any hp/resistances. and guess what most marksman tend to not do?

mages sometimes dont build defensive items or assassins either but ig thats too much to ask.

im genuinely curious why this is such a hard thing to understand.

[undone latch]

mages go defensive have them everygame ( seraphs., hourglass, banshees (kinda cryptbloom) and assassins have edge of night lmfao

[pliant grotto]

Ngl edge of night barely counts as a defensive item. Has some hp, but the main use is the spellshield, so no one buys it for the hp stat.

[wraith pagoda]

Assassin have dd , ga and maw

[simple ermine]

Compare Season 8 Sunfire to now and tell me it got nerfed since then, meanwhile for you to understand what I mean: every tank that doesn’t deal damage doesn’t get played in league of legends, meaning tanks are obsolete in league cos as of right now you don’t need to have a good team composition to win, you just need to kill the enemy faster than you die (in soloq) and there is way too much tank shredding in league, therefore riot did something stupid to keep tanks viable which was to give tanks more damage since in their minds they don’t get their cc and spells off that often and yet they should have some impact, just compare Ornn and Ksante to the likes of Sejuani and Shen. However; that’s utterly stupid, because that’s not how tanks should work, you shouldn’t deal damage and be tanky with CC, dealing damage isn’t the task of the tank anyways, so they should make the class tankier or give them more opportunities to influence the team fight without the need of dealing damage, a tank shouldn’t explode just cos 4-5 people hit the tank, it’s literally their job to tank them all, however, they shouldn’t deal damage while doing so

[iron shard]

If tanks are so tanky that they don't explode when 4-5 people are hitting them, then how do you ever deal with tanks if you don't have 5 people?

[native stump]

i think youre focusing on one sentence instead of the entire point.

[native stump]

???
if you genuinely think tanks get played because they deal damage then idk what to tell you, get rid of the completely delusional aspect. it's like you completely disregarded what ive stated to try and paint a false picture about the arctype of these champions.

there is too much tank shredding in league
No, there isn't. tanks still operate perfectly fine within the game. as stated before you should die just like anyone else if youre being focused down by a large number of people.

riot did something stupid to keep tanks viable which was to give tanks more damage since in their minds they don’t get their cc and spells off that often and yet they should have some impact, just compare Ornn and Ksante to the likes of Sejuani and Shen

So you're telling me these three-four youve cherry picked, two who are literally designed to duel can deal some dmg? In Ornn's case it can be a lot.

that’s not how tanks should work, you shouldn’t deal damage and be tanky with CC, dealing damage isn’t the task of the tank anyways, so they should make the class tankier or give them more opportunities to influence the team fight without the need of dealing damage

Good thing the way this champion arctype influeces teamfights with the very thing you describe as if the damage matters since they don't build any traditionally.

so like, lukass. I can understand why people don't like you or your point of view as it feels very misleading, or attemping to do so.

[lavish kernel]

she gets pen from her passive

pen is a large bait item to most nilahs, you get better value of a fighting item like shieldbow or bt, ldr 3rd item is only good vs 2+ tanks and should be delayed till atleast 4th item if less tanks

the only real time u should be rushing early % pen on nilah is when ur against 2+ tanks OR need heal cut badly, but you also shouldn't be finishing that item since it's buildpath sucks

Nilah players need to start following what the samira otp was doing and avoid ldr until late because outhealing enemies damage worked better in fights, Nilah has good backline access like samira with her double dash and r flash plays

[lavish kernel]

too much shred was lost from the game and yes tanks are currently too strong.

tanks are outputting too much damage currently, they shouldn't have tankiness AND damage

[native stump]

Name them.

[lavish kernel]

ornn has been one thats been doing it for years

tank volibear build is finally getting removed which was another extremely unhealthy one

[native stump]

Ornn was adressed in the post.
Volibear isnt a tank.

[lavish kernel]

tank volibear bulid is definitely a tank

the whole build was literally to just draintank as much damage as posisble but the build does too much dmg

[wraith pagoda]

Only tank forgot mention zac

[lavish kernel]

zac has been turbo for a while too

[wraith pagoda]

Zac sleeper

[lavish kernel]

especially since the removal of rune armor/mr, they never actually nerfed him back to a healthy amount

[simple ermine]

Idk if you’re trolling or not but let me get this straight: no, tanks shouldn’t die if you focus them, it’s their job to draw attention and to tank damage, it’s literally their name. You are stating that tanks should be as tanky as everyone else which is like saying an ADC should deal less damage than an assassin or that a Mage should deal physical damage. Tanks being designed to duel and to deal damage is literally the worst statement I have ever heard especially cos you bring up Ornn and Ksante, Ornn is not a good duellist vs most champion, he just has pretty high burst damage for no reason, whereas Ksante has a dedicated duel form which synergies with his tank stats which should be a war crime but isn’t. However, Shen is meant to be a duel tank, since he has no damaging ult, meaning all of his base spells will deal a lot more damage they should go off set his lack of a damaging R, sad part is that he just doesn’t have wave clear before bamis compared to other tanks hence why he isn’t played at all. The problem is that their damage does matter, 18% max hp damage from Ornn WP is too big of an amount compared to what else he does, same for Ksante. The problem with tanks should be that you can’t kill them while they try their best to stop you from freely operating on the battlefield, the problem we have with tanks as of right now is that you can’t necessarily kill them while they can very easily kill you, hence why there is so much tank shred in the game, which intern means tanks need to deal more damage cos assassins got tank shred too nowadays.

[simple ermine]

You literally argue like you were trying to make some kind of weird non existent point since the facts tell you that tank damage has gone up, the releases tell you that riot wants tanks to deal damage and the class description says that both of those statements shouldn’t have happened since it’s not their job

[simple ermine]

You don’t and just wait for team fights or initialise team fights around the enemy tank, not every class needs to be countered or killed by every other class, it’s fine that you can’t kill certain champs 1v1 as long as they can’t kill you either

[native stump]

Once again i ask you to read the statement.
This will just be a circlejerk if you do not choose to do so.

[simple ermine]

Once again I simply ask you to google sunfire aegis and sunfire cape and compare the damage numbers on either item to completely invalidate your claim

[wraith pagoda]

[paper kestrel]

I think tanks having some form of damage to pose at least a teensy bit of a threat in the top lane 1v1 (where most tanks that are being talked about in this discussion are played the most) is fine, but tank damage scaling has been getting a little absurd

[wraith pagoda]

Tank are balanced however item become weak

[paper kestrel]

I'm watching Phreak's 14.10 rundown rn and he said that tanks have been weak this season so far, like am I just stupid and biased or is that statement completely fucking bogus?

[wraith pagoda]

Nah he right

No one run sunfire just need bami and frozen heart

[paper kestrel]

Next patch is definitely gonna be League of ADCs and tanks imo

ADCs getting 25% crit back, a lot more attack speed on items, along with a butt load of movement speed on a lot of ADC items

[wraith pagoda]

And there go knight vow

Strat

[simple ermine]

Yeah but giant slayer is gone as a passive

[wraith pagoda]

That point

[simple ermine]

Will love to see 8k HP 250 armor 300 AD Mundo running around and oneshotting everyone

[wraith pagoda]

Adc get hit squishy champ

Instead

[wraith pagoda]

More damage

[native stump]

Mundo isnt a tank :)

[wraith pagoda]

@native stump what thought about fiumble winter buff

[native stump]

overall nerf no? 15% bonus mana isnt as desirable as max mana since you get more value out of your base stats through current fimbul

the buildpath getting a little better is nice.

[wraith pagoda]

Good items for those have mana scaling

[native stump]

those that have mana scaling is only ryze/kassadin. tanks wont really be purchasing mana outside of this or fh

[wraith pagoda]

Fh still cheaper

[simple ermine]

I know he isn’t but it’s still valid cos the 6k Hp, 300 resistance Ornn can still kill me with one rotation while I don’t even have a good item against him anymore

[native stump]

it isnt but we can pretend it is

~~ PS build MR vs. ornn, not difficult ~~

[native stump]

hmm, im not sure since fimbul gets an extra ruby crystal worth of hp, it might even out though i dont think it will.

[simple ermine]

Which MR item gives crit and AD again?

[native stump]

you sacrifice dmg for survivability, next question

[simple ermine]

Plus it feel ridiculous to build defensive vs tanks, they just shouldn’t deal any damage past 20mins

[simple ermine]

Thankfully assassins, mages, divers and bruisers need to do the same

[wraith pagoda]

Nah

[native stump]

hes being sarcastic

but thats the price you pay for playing the glass cannon. you cant have your cake and eat it too

[simple ermine]

You see, adc isn’t meant to be the class canon, that’s the job of an assassin, they are actually meant to be the machine gun and you can’t tell me that a machine gun gets broken after one shot

[native stump]

? you're literally a class engineered to build 5-6 damage items, assassins are geared towards the same thing and can opt for better survivability because theyre melee so they have easier time building into things like death's dance or better base/ratios on stuff like maw etc. :)

[wraith pagoda]

Don’t forgot ga

[native stump]

"A machine gun gets broken after one shot" is such a weird way to look at the marksman role.

surely you understand the advantage of being ranged in this game right?

[simple ermine]

Doesn’t mean they are a glass canon, since the idea of a glass canon is to deal an insane amount of burst or rather kill the target in one shot as to not being hit themselves cos they’d die, an adc on the other hand just prefers to have consistent damage and attacks while trying to survive

[native stump]

yes because 300-600 criticals being vomited isnt high damage.

[simple ermine]

Surely you understand that the range means nothing if 2/3s of the roster can just engage onto you without any problem unless you have one or two people actively stopping them from doing so

[simple ermine]

It is, but again it’s over a longer period of time

[tacit rose]

Wait so

Why 25% crit?

[stuck island]

why not

[wraith pagoda]

Trade raw damage for less antitank

[tacit rose]

Oh cuz giant slayer passive?

[wraith pagoda]

Yes

Now can oneshot squishy harder then tank

[tacit rose]

Tristana gaming time

[obtuse robin]

No, the champion is a juggernaut. Being durable does not make a champion a tank. People keep messing this up because we often use the term tankiness to describe how durable a champion is, but being a tank (champion archetype) has less to do with how durable a champion is and more to do with how much and how good of CC they have.

[obtuse robin]

For many years, dealing damage with 3rd on the list for things tanks are expected to do (because disabiling important enemies and taking damage)

[obtuse robin]

Wow...you really think ADC shouldn't be the squishiest class in LoL? They have been for the entire history of the game. Only MOBA I know where that's not true is DotA2, which tbh, I think you'd like more than LoL in many respects.

[lavish kernel]

I mean due to the nature of mages they should be since they have the highest range

[obtuse robin]

Mage's damage output is gated by CDs, and is significant lower over medium-to-long durations, and especially very late in the game compared to ADCs. They pay their dues for having such good range, burst, and CC.

[visual horizon]

crit garen with zephyr and deaths dance

[simple ermine]

Yeah but that’s just cos the philosophy of riot is flawed, it should always be: Tanking, Zone Control (to which I count disruption) and Engage/Disengage, damage just shouldn’t be a priority

[simple ermine]

No they should be squishy just not a glass canon, they should be able to sustain some damage, not as much as a bruiser or diver but some, cos as of right now the glass cannon in league can’t one shot while the full tank deals more damage than the glass canon for nearly 50% of the game

[obtuse robin]

By the time laning is over, most tanks cannot solo-bolo a marksman that's building properly.

[simple ermine]

Which is? Cos if I run the numbers they very well can, since tanks just like adcs are meant to be a scaling role, sure unless the tank is called ksante the adc needs to play atrociously bad for it to happen but the simple fact that it’s an opportunity is a concern

[native stump]

proper tanks are not a scaling role, they have good defenses in early-midgame. when players are accumilating multiple completed items you'll notice tanks get outpaced :)

[simple ermine]

But ofc they get outscaled and yet every analyst will tell you that tanks want to scale up and get items rather than finishing early, their stats scale off one another, their armour gets stronger if they have more hp and vice versa, their abilities get stronger with AH, etc

[obtuse robin]

Tanks hit peak relative power at 1 item complete

[simple ermine]

They do scale, it’s just that the insane amount of tank busting in this game makes it look like they are useless compared to someone like renekton, cos he deals damage and heals off of that, not his stats

[obtuse robin]

Quadratic scaling isn't very impressive against damage that tends to scale ~cubicly.

[simple ermine]

No, that’s too universal, maybe a sejuani does, but not an ornn, or sion, or cho gath

[obtuse robin]

(ADCs can arguably hit quartic scaling with the right buildpath)

Sion is a juggernaut, cho is a specialist, Ornn gives his team a lot of power w/ his special items.

(legit a major reason to play Ornn, and a major reason why it's in top lane is because of Ornn items for your other champs, especially carries)

[simple ermine]

No sion is not a juggernaut and no cho gath isn’t a specialist

They are legit classified as tanks, they do everything the role wants them to do, it’s just that riot for some reason keeps on buffing their damage to an extent where they feel like they aren’t tanks anymore

[obtuse robin]

Other than his R, Sion doesn't have 'lets start a fight' button of any consistent effectiveness (and even his R is fairly dodgable)

Cho'Gath kinda does have that engage if he's good w/ Q, but....he can also legit build AP bruiser and it's probably better than full tank unless your team is stacked with damage and needs more frontline durability.

[simple ermine]

Does Malphite have that besides his R around which you can play as to where it’s not a problem? I’d argue he’s a tank or is he an ap bruiser now?

[obtuse robin]

malph R is one of the most reliable engages in the game

[simple ermine]

So is Sion, if you use it for what it’s intended for which is team fight disruption or hard engage, but even then it’s more of a zoning tool than an actual engage like malphite r

[obtuse robin]

Sion R is pretty unreliable by comparison

Being a hard to kill nuisance that does steady damage is juggernaut play pattern and it's exactly what Sion does

heck, he was reworked into this form in the juggernaut patch.

[simple ermine]

No, that’s just not true, ap cho has the same issues as tank Cho while having less survivability, it’s just that people try to use Cho gath as an engage for some reason which he isn’t, just like Sion he’s a disruptor not an engage champ, which is fine for a tank

[obtuse robin]

Good Cho Q can totally start a fight, but that's his only way to do it. AP cho does way more damage than tank cho and is still fairly tanky

[simple ermine]

Sion deals no damage, his Q and his R are simple zoning tools that are dealing some damage but the main part about them is the cc, his E is an armor shred to further support his team and his W gives him free hp and a huge shield, plus his passive is good for a weak side champ

[obtuse robin]

He does when I play him. People mistakenly build him straight tank and it's a pathetic misuse of the champion

you can get like 80% of the durability while still hitting 300+ AD with a proper build, and then he's a menace against most teams.

[simple ermine]

He just isn’t vs an adc that gets ldr or Bork, as in AP Cho isn’t, tank Cho is cos he has more stats to actually make his massive amount of bonus hp worth it and no even a good Cho can’t initiate a team fight vs somewhat decent opponents with Q

[simple ermine]

Ah yeah why haven’t pro players caught up to the secret strat of having an unreliable damage source and half a tank in their games I can’t imagine

[obtuse robin]

pro teams usually draft solid peel and that is every juggernaut's kryptonite.

(it's why the archetype is bad in pro play most of the time).

juggernauts, like assassins, thrive in chaos.

[simple ermine]

Or it’s because they understand that having a mix of an unreliable damage dealer with an insufficient tank is just the worst of both worlds and they prefer to have either the one or the other cos it just makes the game so much easier and better to play ?

[obtuse robin]

because of the good peel, just building to maximize time alive and letting your teammates be the damage is fine.

tbh, smart opponents would actually stop prio'ing peeling/CC the sion as much

[simple ermine]

Yeah we just don’t peele the Sion so that he can cc and disrupt our back line so that we lose the fight smort

[iron shard]

Sion is on the higher end of damage dealers relative to other tanks

Ornn does 19k dmg per game, Sion is 23k

[simple ermine]

Yeah same is Cho which just shouldn’t even exist cos they shouldn’t deal damage, tanks aren’t meant to carry games by damage but by clever positioning and creating space

[simple ermine]

Sources?

[iron shard]

lolatyics

You can also use leagueofgraphs who lists dmg per min

759 vs 653

[simple ermine]

Ah the same website that rates games as Master games if there is at least one master player in the lobby? How reliable, but anyways, 23k average damage per game is just insane for a tank

It’s legit too high

[iron shard]

Sure, if you don't want to believe it then just take a look at leagueofgraph's data

btw Ksante does 630 dmg per min

[simple ermine]

It’s still too much damage

[iron shard]

Can you prove that the data is false then?

[simple ermine]

No I can’t, but if it’s true it just shows that there is too much damage in the game, that’s the point I am trying to make, tanks deal too much damage per game

[iron shard]

Sion isn't a tank

He's a juggernaut which is a bruiser subclass

[wraith pagoda]

sion tank

alway have be in past

[obtuse robin]

The willful ignorance in this thread....

[native stump]

Sion is first and foremost a tank. granted he's a bit special.

[pliant grotto]

Reading this conversation right after I finish a match where I got some of the highest damage on my team as tank poppy

Tbf the only person with more than me was a fed fiora and everyone else was super negative (2/10, 3/10, 3/11)

[native stump]

your anecdote goes unappreciated.

[ashen mantle]

Your anecdote is, without any further consideration, insignificant

[pliant grotto]

Yeah makes sense

[simple ermine]

He’s legit classified as such by the developers and is played as a tank 99% of the time idk what to tell you

[iron shard]

You're right, he is classified as a tank by Riot.
My issue with Sion being listed as a tank is because he doesn't fit into the definition as a tank.
So tanks have two subclasses, vanguard and wardens.
Vangaurds: Durability, Engage, Lock down
Warden: Durability, Ally Protection, Disengage

Sion is def not a warden so Riot probably classifies him as a vanguard.
But is Sion really a champion who excels in engage and lock downing enemies?
All of his cc abilities are unreliable and his only form of engage is his ult which only ever hits if the enemy is distracted.

But let's say that Sion is a juggernaut
Juggernaut: Damage, Durability, Survivability

Sion is one of the highest damage dealing beef cakes in the game and is extremely durable.
Doesn't Sion fit into the definition of Juggernaut more cleanly then Vanguard?

[obtuse robin]

Yea, afaik they used to classify him as a juggernaut

[simple ermine]

His Q and R both being quite literally made to zone off enemies and to cc them don’t agree

[iron shard]

Zoning isn't lockdown or engage

It is a form of cc, but not all cc has the same function

[simple ermine]

It’s like arguing that Alistar isn’t a vanguard cos you can flash his q w, or cos he can’t always engage etc, Sion is doing basically the same as alistar does, just with more damage an less reliability because of it

[iron shard]

So if your champion has a less reliable skillset of a Vanguard but much more closely matches the skillsets of a Juggernaut, then maybe Sion is a juggernaut?

[simple ermine]

For that to be true you’d have to pick Sion specifically because he deals damage and not because he’s tanky and he has to have a way of dealing consistent and reliable damage which sion has none of

[iron shard]

Juggernauts can be tanky as well. Sion also does damage, I already showed you the dpm for Sion compared to other tanks, no?

[simple ermine]

Just because his dpm compared to other tanks is higher doesn’t mean his dps compared to other juggernauts is, since your dps depends on your consistent damage while dpm is influenced by your cds, he doesn’t have the same dps potential as someone like Darius, or Sett, or any other juggernaut, not does he have a kit which is designed to specifically enable him to deal a high amount of dps, other than juggernauts, all he has is high base numbers and ridiculous scalings and that’s it, but those things don’t make a malphite an ap bruiser

And it’s for that same reason that Sion is no juggernaut

[iron shard]

Have you looked up how much dpm Sion does compared to other Juggernauts 💀

[simple ermine]

Idc about his dpm I care about his dps and no they aren’t the same

You can’t take the dpm and divide it by 60 to get the dps, since it’s not an adc meaning their pressure comes through spells and there is only a give amount of spells you can cast per second and with the cds available, adcs skirmishers and juggernauts to an extent are an exception since their damage is heavily tied to their auto attacks and less to their abilities, meaning their dpm compared to their dps is lower than it should be

[iron shard]

Sion does a lot of damage through aa's as well tho?

What is Sion's damage distribution if you think most of his ablility comes from abilities?
akali dmg distribution would be like AA 30% Q 35% E 10% R 25% (just an example)

[simple ermine]

But??? Have you ever seen a Sion auto attacking past minute 25 in a team fight?

[simple ermine]

Yea cos her passive legit empowers her auto attack after using an ability but even then it’s like 20% AA Max

[iron shard]

I'm asking you what do you think Sion's dmg distribution is using Akali as an example

[simple ermine]

Like 20, 15, 30, 20, 5, 10

Items, Autos, Q, W, E, R

[iron shard]

30% Q???

[simple ermine]

Over the entirety of the game yeah

It’s his only real damaging ability

Which has a reliably low cd and high damage

Again, this makes his dpm higher but doesn’t really contribute to his dps cos it takes like 2.5 secs to get that damage off and it has like 7 secs cd

[iron shard]

Do you not auto attack in lane or something?

I was only considering a teamfight, but if we are including lane dmg then 15 from aa is disgusting low

Also are you just afk during your passive?

[simple ermine]

Nah he just doesn’t have a high enough attack speed to auto attack properly trade with them, plus you usually short trade as sion in lane

[simple ermine]

Nah I just use it to farm the wave as to use the OP part of the passive, which is to make your death less punishing

[iron shard]

During teamfights?

I get arguing for your points but acting dumb is just silly

[simple ermine]

You get kited and get like 2-3 autos off

[paper kestrel]

The undead juggernaut

Broke: Argues about his kit and gameplay design to determine if he's a juggernaut or a vanguard.
Woke: Looks at his title.

[wraith pagoda]

https://x.com/riotaugust/status/1787899841747759399?s=46

August (@RiotAugust) on X

Throwing a bone to lane Viego next patch.

Q Mark
Healing vs. minions: 10% damage dealt >>> 50% damage dealt

Twitter · May 7, 2024, 5:38 PM

[void brook]

welcome to the club. It's like arguing with a flat earther. No point in reasoning with someone who didn't come to their point through reason or actual facts/testing to back it up. It's just a fantasy in his mind glorifying pro play in 2013 with an hour of nothing gameplay.

[void brook]

Also Sion damage spread is pretty much 60% from items. AA damage is only if you get titanic hydra, and even then it's mostly from the item.

[simple ermine]

Not true, just look at the base values of his bad AD, his W explosion damage, hit tAD scalings etc

[simple ermine]

Like what? The fact that something should never be tanky as fuck while dealing damage?

[void brook]

It's very much true. I mean unless you're advocating that AD sion is his main build, the majority comes from items. i've played several games of tank sion, which is definitely more than you can say, and find most the damage comes from heartsteel and immolate

[simple ermine]

The fact that you actually build heartsteel on Sion an get to deal damage with it just proves to me that you’re playing against people without any knowledge or understanding of the game and even then, no I can guarantee you that nearly 70% of your damage dealt as sion will be physical which can’t come from items since every tank item except heart steel deals magic damage

[void brook]

No, that tanks somehow should be surviving 5 people focusing them down and that it's a part of tank game design. You should see how game design and player experiences are towards tanks and tankiness.

[void brook]

Doesnt prove jackshit as youd dont play the game at all

[simple ermine]

It’s literally their job to tank 5 people in a team fight

[void brook]

Surviving doesnt have to a part of it

Tanking and surviving are different things. You can go see how Overwatch, WoW, Dota, Hots, HoN, etc. all handled it as well

[simple ermine]

Heartsteel is a bad item since it does nothing to actually help you survive, all it does is giving yoh HP, which means nothing if you still get 70% of the damage an ability does overall since you don’t have resistances to use that hp

[simple ermine]

You shouldn’t explode, you should die yeah but not after 3-4 seconds but rather 10-15

[void brook]

There should never be one champ that solely soaks all damage. Rather it'd make sense for 2 tanks to be able to do that. Otherwise just 1 tank is all it'd need for games to last a century.

[iron shard]

Isn't core build Sunfire -> Heartsteel -> Titanic?

[void brook]

Then also consider stages of the game.

[void brook]

Yeah

And I consider titanic damage to be item damage, as it's literally damage coming from the item rather than its stats applied to the champ

[simple ermine]

But again you want to have 1-2 tanks that should be able to last long enough for your damage carries to deal damage, since those are usually not burst champs but rather dps machines you need to survive at least 5 seconds to get any value, afterwards you should try to survive as long as possible

[simple ermine]

No it most certainly isn’t above 300LP masters where it’s like Sunfire/Unending Despair (yes I just remembered the name) plus boots and then whatever the hell you need, can be kaenic, can be Frozen Heart, can be Thornmail/Randuins etc

[void brook]

I mean 5-7 seconds for end game ttk is pretty good. At a stage where adcs reach a state where their ttk is less than a second, I think it's good enough, and tanks do last that long

[void brook]

Again lying or making stuff up for what

[simple ermine]

Nah just go ahead and look it up

[iron shard]

Actually I don't think he's completely wrong about that part

[simple ermine]

Nobody in high elo buys Heartsteel cos the item sucks

[iron shard]

I'm looking up every single masters+ Sion mains and it's a good mix between heartsteel core and unending cores

[void brook]

Im reading it as we speak. Heartsteel picked 50% of the time

Most common build path by Sion OTPS as well

[simple ermine]

I can find exactly one pro player from LGD esports who purchases heartsteel and he’s running it down every game with it, it does make sense in the games where he does buy it cos they play like 4 melees and yet it still sucks, idk what to tell you guys

[void brook]

Pro players arent good sion players

They just play him to be a meat shield. They excel at duelists much more

[simple ermine]

Ah wait not true, he had one good game cos Jayce with it cos he actually used his brain and went comet

[void brook]

You have to understand that pros pick safe picks not because they're necessarily good at them, but because they want to fulfill a particular role

Not that it has anything to do with their skill or optimization of the champ

[simple ermine]

Nah the top 0.0001% of the player base with a complete analytical staff and coaches that evaluate literally every item, champion and rune change every patch as well as every item combination that somehow makes sense will definitely not know what an optimal build path is or how to properly use the information given to them, it’s not like they have weekly meetings about exactly that

[void brook]

In fact, Zeus went Comet Gragas against Bin"s jax. In what univverse does comet do better than phase rush lmfao

It's quite clear (and well supported by several interviews with pros) that they don't always utilize a champ to its fullest or optimize a particular champ's build. They go for safe options that will be consistent and "good enough" for them

[simple ermine]

He can’t use phase rush if the Jax is good, which Bin surely is, cos he will just use his E to dodge your W or normal auto attack and deny you the phase rush prock, after which you are dead cos you can’t dodge his E stun anymore since you don’t have your E to dash away or phase rush to sprint

[void brook]

And then we hear this bullshit fantasy

[simple ermine]

No it’s because in that situation not going for optimal damage but rather optimal survivability is better since they have enough damage and know that their carries will do the damage for them

[iron shard]

There are currently 8 300+ lp Sion mains.
3 of them build Heartsteel in a good chunk of their games (17-30%)
2 build it every game
3 never build it

[void brook]

Man, do you even watch pro league? If you even watched that match, you'd see the hundreds of times he wouldve been fine if he had phase rush. Literally procc'd EAAQ so many times

[iron shard]

Heartsteel isn't core for every champ but it's not like no one builds it

[simple ermine]

Okay, so 17-30% of the games they build that item, now compare that to sunfire

[void brook]

No one argued about sunfire

[iron shard]

It's higher then those percentages because a lot of players opt for Heartsteel 2nd

[void brook]

You just said heartsteel isnt core and it's used by people who have no idea what they're doing lmfao

[simple ermine]

No but heartsteel definitely isn’t and shouldn’t be a core item on Sion cos the item gives you no resistances and only hp, which doesn’t matter since you get enough of that from your Wp

[void brook]

The hp stacking damage is a huge reason why sion gets it, since it synergizes with W passive and sunfire

Any time you get ahead you just pick up heartsteel and snowball to victory

[simple ermine]

Nah that’s just the reality of how the game works at peak level, and yeah that because Bin knows he doesn’t have to deny this combo and can opt to play a bit more reactive, against phase rush he can’t play reactive but gragas can’t use his rune meaning he will still lose every trade

[void brook]

Hence the reason why its pick rate and win rate weights are so good

[iron shard]

But either way, don't make up claims and then tell other people to look it up when you won't even do it yourself

[void brook]

Zeus was losing every trade by getting clipped by jax E lmfao

You definitely didnt watch worlds

[simple ermine]

And then the enemy carry has a brain, picks cut down and maybe even opts for a BORK if possible and you are just useless cos you have way too much hp with no resistances and just die

[iron shard]

You can argue that Heartsteel shouldn't be Sion's core all you want, but the reality is that high elo players do build Heartsteel

[void brook]

Wow way to fantasize again. Why do you keep talking but never play the game

You have 0 experience to back up anything lmfao. The data you pull is faulty all the time as well

I've played plenty of sion, watched plenty of high elo sion, and seen dozens of sion games in pro play with the stats.

They all show that Sion snowballing with Heartsteel wins games more often than any other full tank build

[simple ermine]

No you just do something very stupid which is to argue that something will always happen that way and that people will always play the same cos they did it once, which just isn’t good, they will adapt, that’s why they are where they are, you just don’t get that playing patterns change every single game and aren’t the same at all

[void brook]

Irony is lost on you

[simple ermine]

Yeah nice that you in your echo chamber get the feedback that what you’re doing is good, it doesn’t mean it’s good objectively speaking, every single analyst would swear that Heartsteel as an item is just not good since it does nothing but providing you with a huge amount of hp and an occasional damage tool, which is nice if you are Mundo and useless on every other champion

[void brook]

Now you're just using words you dont even know how to use. How is statistical support and going through reliable information from sion mains, pro play, and my own personal anecdotes an echo chamber. I swear you have an embarrassment or arguing fetish

Especially with your arbitrary notions of objectivity and 0 experience on your hands, do you not find it completely hypocritical to say this?

[simple ermine]

Because you just ignore everything that doesn’t make sense to you, yes your high elo Sion otps stuck in Masters for 10 seasons build the item you want, your personal experience in which you built the build path you want to be presented in a good light will always come down to the good games and not the bad ones, statistical evidence is nice if it wasn’t flawed, just cos 30000 people play something in some way doesn’t mean it’s the optimal way as to what the champion wants to do. If the item was that good on Sion and if all the things I listed as problematic wouldn’t matter since pro players would build it reliably and consistently, they don’t which means there are flaws too heavy as to where you just shouldn’t buy it but rather opt for a better build path

[void brook]

Who's ignoring what now? Seems like you just intentionally ignored hundreds of thousands of games in conjunction with the games of those pro players you adore so much, as well as the ideology of pro play in general.

Safe picks and safe builds are what pro players enjoy

[simple ermine]

The reason why I call you out for just listening to your echo chamber is because you have done nothing to discredit any of the counter arguments I made, you simply pretend they don’t exist and argue that it works because it works, even if it works for 30000 people doesn’t mean it’s optimal or somewhat better, if just means that 30000 people don’t get punished for building wrong or suboptimally, which isn’t a good strategy, just hoping to not get punished should never be a reasonable call

[void brook]

And they make build errors too. One of the biggest analysts out there for Eastern championships is Caedrel and often points out mistakes in what they di

[simple ermine]

The problem with Caedrel arguing is that he actually gives arguments which can be proven wrong or right, most of the time they can be argued either way but he doesn’t go into any depth, I agree that they make mistakes but I still haven’t seen one pro player building heartsteel in a professional match

[iron shard]

I don't get it, he has made counterpoints tho?

Like several counterpoints now that I'm rereading

[simple ermine]

He hasn’t done anything to prove my arguments as to why it’s bad wrong

Cos my points are that it offers nothing to enhance your effective HP, can be easily countered by runes and items and is basically useless if you can’t hit

[iron shard]

That's your point?

[simple ermine]

It’s why it’s useless

[iron shard]

I mean 99% of what you said was just
"nobody in pro play builds it" "every analyst said it is bad" "they have a complete analytical staff and coaches" etc

Josu is only responding to what you are saying

[simple ermine]

Yeah and I even laid out the reasons why it is that way, it’s literally three messages above this one and was put up several times by myself

[iron shard]

Like looking back, I can see that you brought up those point. But it really doesn't help your case when you are making new points when the old one wasn't even addressed yet

[simple ermine]

That’s not on me but on the other party which is part of the argument

[iron shard]

It's on you to make your points clear

If the argument is being derailed from the points you want to talk about, then instead of going with the flow of the discussion. Bring it back to what is actually important

[simple ermine]

I did, you literally said that when you go back to my messages you can see them being brought up, if the other person would actually get to respond to those points before I feel like they just didn’t get it because it’s too difficult to understand for them then ofc I will move on to simpler points or simplify them enough

[void brook]

You ignored the fact that Sion is picked in pro play to be a safe meat shield in pro play. So tell me when has a sion ever played their role in pro play to snowball or get ahead? Never. They always play weakside to be a meatshield for the adc. They dont ever try risking playing for Top laners at all, much less tanks.

Also, most proplay is dedicated towards team fights rather than laning. So they always want to pick the cheapest highest value item out there. Hartsteel requires longer laning phase, which doesnt happen especially in this fiasco meta. So, they opt to go Jaksho, which has stats on components which are applicable at face value.

If the meta shifts towards a longer laning phase for top laners, I can guarantee that you would see heartsteel pop up.

Notice how it has nothing to do with how ideal the item is, just how it places with their playstyle. Not being able to proc is a choice they made when they locked in Sion. They pick Sion to weakside and be a damage soak. Never to have a winning lane or become a big issue.

It also would be bought more if there were any players who were actually good at Sion in the pro scene, but I digress.

Heartsteel is a hard buy, you could start with that. Or you could say Heartsteel takes too long to gain value. Those are valid arguments

[iron shard]

If a third party person who wasn't actively perticipating in the conversation had to go back and read your replies to see your points, then I'm sorry but it wasn't clear.

[void brook]

What you said instead was "you cant proc it so it's useless", which is a weird claim to make without seeing it in play.

The argument "all it gives is hp" was answered long ago, and it's clear that if you're snowballing with heartsteel, botrk isnt going to be procc'd well enough to knock him down

[simple ermine]

Someone might say that the tank isn’t meant to be snowballing but rather to sit back and fulfil the role of a tank and allow the damage dealers to deal their damage, meaning it’s literally his job to not snowball and be weakside. Furthermore as already discussed Heartsteel offers nothing in terms of effective value, it deals quite a bit of damage if you get to hit, which will never happen against high prio targets. Just looking at the facts as they are presented it will never be a good item in league since it does nothing to allow you to reach your goals unless you are already ahead which means nothing on a tank since you will still get kited and will be focused, it just means that your team has no damage or chance to win a fight

[simple ermine]

No, bork will still kill you. 3000 HP means nothing if you only prevent 30% of the damage, since you are only able to tank nearly 4K damage, if you however have 2500 HP but negate 2/3s of the damage you get to tank 4100 damage, while having 600 hp less, just because of your resistances

[void brook]

Choosing to pick Sion as a meat shield and nothing more is again a choice. Just like choosing to build varus as a dps or sniper is a choice. Just like choosing to play Poppy as an engage tank rather than a bruiser is a choice.
Pro players dont aim for perfect optimization. They go for safety.

Sion with heartsteel sunfire and 4 stacks of heartsteel is already over 4k hp with over 150 armor. What adc at 2 items is going to burst him down other than Vayne?

Botrk will take ages, not to mention the hp regen bonus from heartsteel as well

Heartsteel isnt always about getting damage on high prio targets anyways. That's what Sion ult is for. Heartsteel is for hyperscaling hp to improve immolate and jaksho effectiveness

[simple ermine]

Varus, Kalista, Kog maw with BORK and Guinsoos

[void brook]

If there were just more confident sion mains in pro league, you'd see heartsteel being built against 2 tank comps

[simple ermine]

They aim for being not to always carry

[void brook]

Ok kog I give, but varus aint gonna do it and neither is kalista

[void brook]

It's their choice to be a sack of stats to be safe.

[simple ermine]

You just don’t know how much damage Kalista or Varus do with their % max HP magic damage which is not negated by armor

[simple ermine]

Yeah cos that’s literally a tank in a nutshell, you don’t snowball and win by yourself but by having a winning team

[void brook]

They choose safety and consistency over anything. The only team that hasnt been doing that recently was T1 and bds

They never choose full optimization for tanks, always utility. And sometimes that safety delays their wins because they hate taking risks

Gen G is a prime example of that. It doesnt mean that they always win in the most optimal way

[simple ermine]

Yeah why taking risks when you can just win by 100% if you simply play slower

[void brook]

They just win in a way they know they can win

That's the main difference. And that's also why you'll see a lot of overly cautious builds and teams. They end up getting railed by someone who takes a more confident stance towards the game. That's what adam did, and that's what Keria did.

[native stump]

Nobody and I mean Nobody considers kalista a tank-buster.

Sure, ap varus can anihhilate a tank but im pretty sure that's fallen to the wayside rn and he wont offer much else outside of that.

[simple ermine]

It’s not about tank busting which she surely can during mid game she’s an onhit adc which usually builds Bork and has a passive on W that’s literally meant to deal with tanks but again it’s not about one shotting a tank it’s about killing them eventually, which both can do, especially Varus cos of his W passive

[paper kestrel]

What are some good tank busting ADCs? On hitters like Kog, Vayne, and Ashe? Nilah with her upwards of 50% armor pen if you buy LDR/Mortal Reminder?

[simple ermine]

Everything with % max HP damage/on hit is usually a good enough tank buster, Vayne Kog Maw Varus and Kai Sa just have the best ways to do so since they have easy ways to apply their tank busting capabilities

[lavish kernel]

Nilah bad vs tanks

[simple ermine]

Nilah has ways to deal with tanks cos she is an adc and has to deal with them somehow but no she’s more a kin to samira which means she wants to go in an kill squishy targets first

[lavish kernel]

Can't safely hit tanks, she can only focus them when the fight is already over or to stack conq before going in

Tank busters are also the worse class of tank shredders

[paper kestrel]

Yeah her entire kit is pretty much just "dive the backline" and her current build of Collector>Navori matches it

[simple ermine]

Yeah unhealthy for an adc but whatever

[paper kestrel]

Water Samira moment

[lavish kernel]

She has large drawbacks and is countere dby half of the adcs and countered by other lanes (she struggles with top and midlaners heavily)

[simple ermine]

Yeah it’s still unhealthy no matter how bad it is, it’s kind of the yone syndrome where something is unhealthy but also weak so people say “it’s not so bad” yeah nah it’s just unhealthy

[lavish kernel]

I mean there are so many champs in the botlane that are more unhealthy xD

[paper kestrel]

Nilah gets bullied out of lane by like 60% of other bot laners btw, sure she scales hard as hell but it's easy to bully her early

[lavish kernel]

Nilah just punishes people who odn't know how to play against her and she's only a champ that performs well in diamond because higher tier players know how to beat her and lower tier don't know how to pilot her

yall know xj9?

[native stump]

her build is currently bortk/rageblade as core, sure. Do you genuinely think a static 10s on her wp is enough to shred a tank? in the midgame tanks are at their strongest with items like wardens mail/one of its completed items. Kalista build tries to opt for some scaling but goes against her identity with being earlygame skewed. this results in the champion by nature being significantly weaker.

[simple ermine]

Like?

[simple ermine]

Well it’s good enough to make the champ strong against tanks but not too strong, don’t forget her passive which was literally made to bully melees and skill shot dependant champs

[native stump]

In regards to nilah. she's a time bomb, not through her scaling but the snowball effect she has. she isnt as unplayable as many think, her only bad matchups iirc are things that can super easily kite her (which is surprisingly hard to do.)

[lavish kernel]

seraphine apc , senna, draven's design sucks etc

[simple ermine]

I agree 100%

[lavish kernel]

Yeah nilah only really struggles with bad synergies + disengage and xayah

[simple ermine]

Or Kalista if played properly since Kalista’s auto attacks can’t be cancelled but only missed, meaning even if she uses her W she still gets the spears, something that happens to jax too or people inside of Shen W

It’s the same reason why you can barely outplay Kalista with vision cancelling since she doesn’t stop her attack animation or the dash, she just doesn’t deal damage to you if you aren’t in vision range when the auto would connect

[obtuse robin]

She definitely was good at it back when on-hit was godly at tank busting w/ mythic items allowing you to stack % pen with LDR+Guinsoo's. With that gone, she's decent at it but not amazing (still 1st item's BotRK, so she does itemize % damage all the time)

[wraith pagoda]

https://x.com/riotphroxzon/status/1787933947277832377?s=46

Matt Leung-Harrison (@RiotPhroxzon) on X

https://t.co/NhnT6skK8n

Some changes we're making for Split 2 Ranked in 14.10

Some additional clarifications:

• We intend for promoting over a tier to carry the same LP over. However, due to some last second difficulties in the migration, this change didn't make it into…

Twitter · May 7, 2024, 7:54 PM

[visual horizon]

demotion protection is so ass

i wont be able to troll a lot of games after getting promoted

[obtuse robin]

That's the point.

[visual horizon]

gatekeeping is fun, they're going to remove that

[simple ermine]

You’re a terrible person if you do that anyways

[visual horizon]

well, some people have fun playing the game in different ways other than focusing in LP

well guess i'll piss off some silver players in a smurf by permanently gatekeeping since i can always stay at the same lp range

[simple ermine]

Yeah but it doesn’t change that you’re a terrible person and doesn’t obey the code you consented to obey

[iron shard]

Least obvious attention seeker

[verbal edge]

Bro self admitted to being a douche

Crazy bait used to be believable

[visual horizon]

its not a bait im actually toxic

[verbal edge]

Sure brother

[dark citrus]

boys

ksante getting buffed after last patch nerf :-

https://twitter.com/Spideraxe30/status/1788711138915475671?t=YuWUZHTw-hZh-sLa0TZDkw&s=19

Spideraxe (@Spideraxe30) on X

K'Sante buffs:

• Health growth increased from 115 to 120
• Health regen growth increased from .85 to 1
• E base shield increased from 50 - 210 to 50 - 250

Twitter · May 9, 2024, 11:22 PM

[paper kestrel]

Finally

I know this champ is constantly seen as hella broken no matter how bad he actually is in the meta but he's needed buffs for a while

[dark citrus]

bro ksante sucked this patch

[paper kestrel]

44-45% WR rn, that's insane imo

[dark citrus]

why do ppl think hes strong? he was nerfed like shit ever since his Q at all out didnt slow and his W doesnt speed up

[paper kestrel]

Reddit logic, probably

[dark citrus]

:/ thats just shittty

[paper kestrel]

And people really hate the windshitters, K'Sante plays somewhat like a tanky windshitter so people hate K'Sante

[dark citrus]

whats a winshitters lmfao

[paper kestrel]

Yas/Yone

[dark citrus]

oh oh ok

[dark citrus]

ksantes hate is justified cuz hes a tank as a skirmisher which is strange af

but i play him from time to time so hes ok ig

[paper kestrel]

Yeah those are two classes that I don't think should interwine lmao

[dark citrus]

those 2 classes intertwined is like teemo

[paper kestrel]

Assassin skirmisher? Sure! Mage Skirmisher (think Sylas)? Sure! Tank skirmisher? WHAT?

[dark citrus]

its strange af

[paper kestrel]

Yasuo and Ornn's strange child, K'Sante

[dark citrus]

is K'sante even a good teamfighter?

[paper kestrel]

I think he's good in teamfights for the same reason Morde is good in teamfights

He just kidnaps some poor soul and makes it a 4v4 for his team

[dark citrus]

morde can win teamfight easily cuz of his Ult

same with ksante

[mossy notch]

Awful buffs but buffs are buffs it’s a crime if he was kept in that state

[visual horizon]

wait what the fuck

he gets 120 HP per level or am i being stupid

[paper kestrel]

Yeah

I think that's what health growth is, bonus health gained per level up

[dark citrus]

bro its kinda fair but shitty. srsly ksante averages 42% WR

[cinder sierra]

because of pro play

ksante won 5 games in a bo5 yesterday

[dark citrus]

whats bo?

[spare mulch]

best of

[cinder sierra]

best of

[dark citrus]

oh ok. im only 13 so i dont know slangs its my birthday soon

[spare mulch]

he's crazy with professional teams but soloq hes in the dumps rn

[dark citrus]

he sucks in tf tho

[spare mulch]

so its a tough spot for the devs

[cinder sierra]

just put him in pro play prison

or start remoing things from his kit

[visual horizon]

isnt 120 per level kind of a lot

[cinder sierra]

its a lot I think

[dark citrus]

yeah it is makes hearsteel on him kidna strong

at least gives him 2160 health. NOT including base health and items

[cinder sierra]

he wants resitances

his abilitie scale with mr/armor

[dark citrus]

his Q scales with health

makes his early game more viable whichi is craszy

[cinder sierra]

u sure? I dont see any hp scaling on wiki apart from on his e

[dark citrus]

i think scaling was the wrong word. i meant once he reaches to health point his Q speeds

[cinder sierra]

cast time is faster.

[mossy notch]

people gotta know ksante has low base hp especially for a tank let alone top lane, he already is weak early so this will help with the first few levels. its kinda toxic buffs though

[livid mulch]

ksante early agme hp is really low but its scales just fine

and stat gain only gives more stats the higher level you get, its not equal at all levels