Most Controversial Hot Takes

[rocky perch]

I think her existence is fine but it’s very obv they shoved her so hard cause they wanted money off arcane it’s an obvious cash grab

[radiant cosmos]

writing all this when s2 is very clearly going to include her in a MUCH more prominent role ||and her relationship with the black rose and her plans to conquer piltover|| is kind of insane, obviously they wouldnt release a side character just because, and if they were to they would do a hot marketable anime girl

also there is nothing on earth that you cant make sound boring using such reductive language, its so pointless

i for one think ambessa's kit is cool, a flashy toplaner with lots of mobility, but also very skill expressive (passive) and for the first time in a while doesnt have every single base covered

no burst, no cc, not blindable, just like champs of old you people love to say were the peak of lol

[turbid sinew]

I feel like she's very similar to riven in terms what she does, but somehow even riven feels like she has more charm

[turbid sinew]

she can't have burst, a champion that sticky with high burst damage would feel too unfair

[turbid sinew]

and my hot take is that adc's belong mid

[opaque grove]

I've been saying ADC in solo lanes would become meta eventually for years and we were seeing it for a bit there (and I think it will return eventually).

[oak nest]

Vayne and quinn top meta

[opaque grove]

yea but I mean team play marksman in solo lane instead of in the duo lane.

[dawn plume]

Regardless of how weak ambessa may be she feels god awful to play against because it feels like she gets onto you from absurd ranges even without ulti and can stick to you like super glue

[turbid sinew]

top general is not the ideal lane as it's super gankable and long enough to be run down, main issue of adc's is that they are squish but in a solo lane they get several levels more than on bot making them a lot more durable

[rocky perch]

trying to play sion into lux, twitch, brand, vayne is the least fun iv had in league

brother is just perma cc cause tenacity sucks ass

tenacity needs a big buff is my hot take

[turbid sinew]

tenacity does not provide slow resist only reduces their duration so it's kinda useless into a ton of slows

and sometimes it doesn't even work because of how game works, how leauge servers work

in small amounts that is for example tenacity you get from chemtech drake might not even do anything against very short cc's

[rocky perch]

hell on earth

i mean we had a shaco smite lose 2 drakes and a herald so enemy team ending up with 4 moutain drakes and soul

kinda ggs at that point when adcs are that tough

[tepid plover]

Antiheal is actually almost as useless as the tenacity stat

[true schooner]

A lot of frustrating to play against champs (eg Zed and Darius) and frustrating because there is a mechanic (or lack there of) you need to abuse rather than the character just being inherently busted.

[grand gate]

Please elaborate

[opaque grove]

some ADCs have good tools for top lane

And it's only gankable if you don't control the wave state well.

[true schooner]

Zed: Shove waves, abuse long CDs, Ult puts Zed behind you

[rocky perch]

GPs barrel count should be hidden again

[stark mason]

Jayce should be able to shoot 2 Q's through his gate again without having to build full cdr / sojin

[shell hamlet]

HAHAHA real

[shell hamlet]

nah thats OP

[shell hamlet]

nah thats OP

[stark mason]

It's og jayce

[simple jewel]

league shouldn't have a chat, only a voice chat (u wouldn't be able to disable it)

[ornate dome]

Removing Autofill on JG role

[rocky perch]

How bruh

[rugged depot]

true

[shell hamlet]

id quit my job to play league if this happened ngl

[worthy sparrow]

how can one take be so based

[inner lynx]

Can we have +2 ad for Lee sin

[shell hamlet]

nu

[elfin yew]

Bot lane minions should have a fuck ton of MR forcing mages to go back mid.

[obsidian finch]

IMO, the old mastery system was way better—I really wish they’d bring it back!

[limpid grove]

i agree with the dumbest people play jung and jung mains having an enflated ego. but stats wise and the options there are in jungle it is the hardest role

jungle diff really

[rocky perch]

tahm kench needs another nerf

53/54% wr post nerf is goofy ahh

[limpid grove]

he is only the tankiest tank in the game lol

honestly thats not a hot take just facts that he needs a slight nerf

[rugged depot]

wait a few months cause that tahm streamer was in a coma waiting for times like this

[shell hamlet]

still think its crazy that no arm whatley came back after getting brain damage irl to play league and get even more mental damage. Truly league players are masochists

[shell hamlet]

I think people here deliberately say dumb/wrong shit they don't even believe as "advice" so they can drag others down, rather than help them climb imo

[simple jewel]

can u give an example?

[shell hamlet]

look at the board "Bronze to Gold?"

then scroll up and look at what scodabased and miracle type

[simple jewel]

ok, glad i`m already on the right chat

[simple jewel]

i don't agree, but i can see why you think that.

there`s a very difficult thing to balance in this server which involves game knowledge, and ofc the "simple" solution would be to just give everyone roles based on rank and, with that, solve all issues relating to what is good and bad advice, however, by doing so, u create a extremely toxic environment where only the opinions of x rank + matter, which i agree in part with, i think diamond+ has some idea of how to play this game, and gm+ knows how to optimize it, thus makes sense to only hear advice from dia+.

problem is that a good chunk of people that play league r very difficult to deal with, be it because they r currently tilted, or they watched too much of X streamer n now they(even on iron) believe diamond to be low elo, or they have an ego and because of that, even if they are good or bad at the game, those roles would empower them, Good players would use "yeah but u r iron so who cares" every other sentence, and iron players would say what they already say, so on and so on. Thus, the extremely toxic environment is created.

Now, what would be the optimal way of doing it? idk, i`m not a mod, nor i'm being paid to figure it out.
At the same time, i don't think it's healthy for new players to come in the game and receive advice from iron players, in any situation. U can call me elitist, i don't think your talon bot that worked 2 games out of 25 ranked games is an insane pick and "everyone that's not playing is a dumbass" is something someone that just picked the game should hear, does that mean they can't pick it? ofc not, most of us played league for at least 5+ years, we have had our share of stupid shit, had fun with it, but i'm sure anyone above plat is not recommending you to zoe jg on your ranked game. Hell, my first game was a custom that my friend killed me 14 times and said ashe was supposed to build thornmail vs ap LOL.

With that all said, when it comes to #953796890095411281 , it makes no sense to me when someone in bronze wants advice on how to climb to gold, and anyone below gold is answering it, but u can't just silence peoples opinions.

TL;DR: just give up trying to argue with these people, go play ur ranked game n if someone needs help with specifics, help'em out, if they want general advice, say pick brand and move on.
Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.

[turbid sinew]

Impossible, ap supports, kai'sa, kogmaw, varus, ap twitch

and even minor ap damage most adc's have

Would also make ad junglers better because they can fix waves bot, same with mid. It's a horrible change

[turbid sinew]

Whole game is pure luck, 0 skill. You get into a march and riot rolls a dice to see if you will win or not. You can go 0/55, afk or 28/0 it doesn't matter. You can destroy all 11 towers, a Nexus, kill enemy team 1v5 eight times in a row, that dice roll upon entering lobby decides if you will win or lose

Everything you do, you as a player is irrelevant, everyone above iron IV is just lucky. Chall players just got lucky for years

Faker is lucky too, he mushes random buttons and clicks with eyes closed and a crowd of monkeys cheers

[rugged depot]

Hear me out. Zoe

[shell hamlet]

pls no more

[rugged depot]

think about it, shes old as fuck

[shell hamlet]

I already main jax man, I dont need more heat

[rugged depot]

nah u wierd for that

[elfin yew]

didn't even think about that. Maybe not a fuck ton you're right but enough MR to where you can't get a lost chapter item and then just push waves from range on cooldown.

[opaque grove]

Or maybe just adapt and play solo lane ADCs, a lot of them are actually viable mid in a fair amount of matchups

[elfin yew]

no.

[shell hamlet]

I just think people who actually desire to climb will climb to a certain 'peak', and others wont due to lack of effort. Effort takes you way further than you would believe in league, compared to talent.

I just want misinformation to be limited, as to help the ones who want to get better, get better.

[turbid sinew]

This begs the question why did aspect of twilight take interest in her and went "inside" her when she was a child

[turbid sinew]

I just think ego is your biggest enemy when trying to improve at anything and this includes Leauge

[rugged depot]

baited by a window is crazy

[fallen dock]

I think the fact that he can still climb with brain damage using Tahm should really say something about either his skill or Tahm being broken, either/or really

[shell hamlet]

LMAO

[strong comet]

GUT irelia
nerf ap kata
nerf tahm kench

please just fucking GUT irelia the champion is so fucking unbalancef

anf if someone comes at me with "antiheal! skillful champ!"
antiheal does literally nothing against her and shes full bulid after botrk, and it doesnt take much skill to play a champ that relies on turning off target champions only

she has requires maybe a tad bit more skill than veigar who is already piss easy to play

every overloaded overbuffed champion loses its skill the moment it can bulid tank and outdamages the whole fucking team

• buff reksai

[simple jewel]

irelia either builds dmg and only has W to save herself or builds tank and does barely enough dmg to kill 1 person in any given teamfight that she doesn`t land either E or ult. She's far from the strongest top or the weakest, and most of the mechanical stuff requires u to understand waves, her dmg levels 1-9, and enemy movement, which aren't necessarily hard, just annoying to keep track in any fight with more than 2 champs. Also if healing is an argument, warwick should be there

i agree on tk, kata is w.e, reksai nah

[strong comet]

the "understand wave" is a fucking simple skill you learn after playing a few games its knowing when ur dash wont oneshot minions

warwick healing is balanced hes literally a healing based champ + he falls off late

[simple jewel]

nope thats not it lol

[strong comet]

i FUCKING HATE warwick and he deserved a nerf but irelia is far worse

[simple jewel]

understanding wave is understanding wave states and setting them up so u can play a lane in a way that favours the matchup

be it pushing, freezing, stacking

[strong comet]

such fancy ways to counter that no matter how shitly you play you still win every duel and teamfight

2/8 krelia melted 2 people that were 2 items ahead of her in a teamfight

also whst does w.e mean on katarina

and why should reksai noy get buffed

[fallen dock]

Irelia is annoying but I don't think she needs a nerf, maybe a bit of rebalancing to get rid of her reliance on BORK

[simple jewel]

katarina is w.e because rarely someone picks her, when she's picked people tend to cc lock her or negate her of resources, or just picking counters.

when rek'sai n kayn r meta, game is unfun to play.
rek'sai is a bruiser n has the same gank as zac but she can just walk up to u from behind your tower n force a flash or flash as well n get a kill, then proceeds to build the bruiser package giving her the dmg of an assasin for some reason, has a somewhat strong regen on passive and her clear is rlly fast since her main skill is an AoE AA enhance, and mobility is not an issue to her since lvl 3 because of tunnels, which makes her naturally ahead of enemy jg

kayn has the same issues of rek`sai, except this mf is either one shotting u with little to no outplay or is a bruiser that never dies cuz he has about 4 health bars after 3 items and really low cds with a line knockup

[strong comet]

what the fhck is this reksai take holy shit

[simple jewel]

what do you disagree with

[strong comet]

are we in 2015

[fallen dock]

What Rek'Sai builds tank lmao

I mostly see them go Eclipse>Cleaver or Stride>Cleaver

[simple jewel]

yeah bruiser tank, same shit, it`s 5k hp with 4k ad

cleaver eclipse is pretty much just a tank at this point, u have health and shields on low cd

put on a tabi and some regen, there u go, u have a tank that does dmg = bruiser

[fallen dock]

Might as well start calling Riven a tank

[simple jewel]

okay, i see ur point, shouldn`t generalize

[strong comet]

Reksai has one of the slowest clearspeeds as a jungler , Her Q aa aoe does like 1 tick damage. Corki outspeeds her clear by fucking 16 seconds

Her dmg is miniscule at ALL stages of the game, she barely holds the title of an early game jungler anymore

Her passive regen sucks ass and CANNOT be utillized perfectely in 90% of the games (you must preplace your tunnels before a teamfight to slide in and out then rely on your team to actually do anything)

They killed her assassin bulids forcing her to be this tanky , bruisrrish champ with the kit of an OBVIOUS ASSASSIN

Also, even when rek is strong no one plays her because shes a monster single champ lockdown easily punishable jungler, if u actually struggle to play against her in her current state thars sad

RIGHT now, a FULL DMG bulid cannot one combo an ADC

[fallen dock]

Her passive def isn't the most pointless thing ever since her rework, it's gained a bit more value

[strong comet]

including your ultimate execute

[strong comet]

yeah thats good the healing works now but you cant utillize it 90% of the time thats my point

[fallen dock]

Although yeah assassin Rek'Sai was way more fun, and made a lot more sense, than current bruiser Rek'Sai

[strong comet]

her cooldowns are SO FUCKING LONG , q is short, w is 10 seconds per knockup for a single champ, e is 9 seconds at max for bite and 16 or somethihg fkr tunnel

awful shit chop everything in half to comepensate for lulu dmg

[simple jewel]

i didn`t say she's strong right now, i said she's unfun to play against when she IS strong
also i'll add, i didn't know she had a rework recently, will take an L there

[strong comet]

also shes supposed to be "AGILE, PREDATOOR JUNGLE..... !!" then gets magic dmg on half her spells and true dmg removed

[fallen dock]

Remember when Rek's bite was true damage at full fury? Kinda wish that was still a thing

[strong comet]

• mobillity reduced on w so its usledss

im not even joking right now they should triple her W movespeed gain

you max it last anyway, will make sense because shes ASS late

[strong comet]

she got nerfed 11 patches in a row or more

[simple jewel]

tough love

[strong comet]

❤️

they remove prowlers and then they gut her to take a fat shit on the 100 players that stilll play her

[simple jewel]

okay i'll give it to u, maybe revert it a little, 11 is just brutal

[strong comet]

kata is wild still bro

one spell that CANNOT be missed does 8k dmg

i still have a clip of me playing bruiser kayn going to gank mid, kata teleports onto me with dagger from the other side of mid

and my lifespan was 0.14 seconds

[autumn bough]

Yes tank build died lmao

[shell hamlet]

?

[turbid sinew]

idk build res, ult her, cc her
kat is just miserable into point and click cc

when some1 stacks flat pen, just megatron cloak or any mr component counters their whole build

what most people don't understand is that even small componennts can hold immense value

if enemy stacks lethality just get some armor, if they stack flat mr pen, get some mr and you suddently are much tankier
often to a point where they can't 1shot you anymore

with a minimal investment

[shell hamlet]

just have more gold duh

[rugged depot]

remove all ranged champions

[rocky perch]

nerf ambessa shield

[worthy sparrow]

nerf ambessa

[bold shell]

nerf every ambessa ability

[strong comet]

false

[dawn plume]

Not at all

Any hard cc is a death sentence for katarina

Literally just root or stun her and shes dead

If you can't reliably hit or kill her with some hard cc its a skill diff not a champ diff

Easier said than done since she can shunpo everywhere but if you land it or have point and click cc like pantheon her life is over

[limpid grove]

whoever made this horrid gatcha bs for the new skins is an idiot and should be fired or fired upon

bro was not cooking, aint no one but losers gonna pay the amount of money it would cost for these gatcha tokens

[vivid sinew]

well they keep doing it so it's probably worth it

[strong comet]

pantheon and reksai cc her and then get obliterated by her daggers and autos anyway

[mossy adder]

New champions being nightmares is the fault of Riot and the Players for not acknowledging that a champion is going to perform poorly on their release before people have optimized their build and runes, as well as finding how to play them to begin with (first time in ranked people)

So, stop overbuffing new champions riot, and stop telling them that a new champion is ass a few days in. (K’sante, smolder, YUUMI.)

[dawn plume]

You're just playing completely terrible then

Shes completely killable with one hard cc

Even if shes fed

36-8 and died because she got nautilus R'd

[limpid grove]

Yeah it's cringe lord shit

I don't really care about the new skins anyways their mid af

[thorny hinge]

Get rid of prioty role

[sick mesa]

Katarina takes 0 skill

[dawn plume]

Katarina does take skill

The problem is people feed the hell out of her so she can do whatever she wants regardless of how bad she is

If you don't let her be 4/0 by end of lane she can't just mindlessly pentakill your team by Eing them into WR

Seeing that you have the bot lane role im gonna go ahead and tell you that you are your own worst enemy when katarina is in the game because 90% of the time I play her or someone else does she gets out of hand thanks to bot so just pay attention to her roams and she actually has to use her brain to play

Been on both ends enough times, if im playing kat and enemy bot lane actually knows what a roam is and doesn't die to it I actually have to play the game

If they don't i just faceroll

Same goes for literally any other assassin too game is basically over if i double kill you twice on my akali

Resets just make a fed katarina feel that much more oppressive

[rocky perch]

Katarina as lame as she is has an incredibly dogshit laning phase

You play any champ that can mildly harass her and she just has to sit and beg for ganks

[opaque grove]

Also, if you want a solution to seeing kat mid, Quinn as bot ADC hard counters her (just save your E for when she tries to R and you can always deny her ult every time).

[grand gate]

Or she can just leave and pick up kills botlane .

[dawn plume]

That requires your botlane to not pay attention

If she's leaving behind a wave like that and your botlane has 2 braincells her roam fails and she misses crucial cs

[tight mountain]

seraphine bot

[mossy adder]

Low Skill floor, high skill ceiling

[rocky perch]

thats a team problem then doesnt make her take 0 skill

just means ur team has 0 awareness also mid laners like panth can chase her down

[stray jolt]

Viktor New Model > Viktor Old Model

[rocky perch]

not controversial

new viktor looks shit by comparison most of his skins got fucked

[mossy adder]

New viktor isn’t bad, just that without arcane his thematic is really abstract and unclear of what he’s supposed to be. He does work better as a character though.

[rocky perch]

ig but u cant tell me the design is better

like look at how they fucked up high noon

i think the lore behind him is better just cause arcane is fairly well writen but holy shit his proportions vs old viktor is too much of a jump

[buoyant hornet]

Why ppl hate draven, it's dogshit champ who can get perma abused on lane, and don't pick yummi if you don't want to get dive evry minute during laning phase 😄

[vague kraken]

shaco

[dawn plume]

Rage bait used to be believable

[mossy adder]

Skarner’s rework was good. They reimagined parts of his kit that were considered boring to the majority of the playerbase and got rid of the spires which were unhealthy for the game.

[ornate dome]

Idiot lux support users idk if they are equally lazy or just clueless

[mossy adder]

Lux support players are “bad” because Lux is a very common autofill pick for support

[gloomy ivy]

yuumi players are insufferable

[pure willow]

Fizz will never be buffed, only have nerfs reverted. And not even completely reverted.

[tranquil crag]

i think listening to players will kill the game

baus did nothing wrong

reddit is grass eating cows

[lusty dawn]

doesn't matter how good you are, if you have shit teamates you'll be hardstuck for the rest of your life unless u make a new account

[bold shell]

insane cope

you can have shit teammates in your games but you wont have them every game

i could play on 99% of accounts in this server and climb it to masters on a high wr

the 1% of accounts being those that are already m+

[lusty dawn]

Just speaking from what I’ve seen tbh, been playing for 8 years now and for the last 2 I haven’t been able to get out of silver, I play flex with emerald players and the game isn’t a problem to me, yet solo queue is impossible for me. 2+2=7

[bold shell]

send your opgg

[shell hamlet]

bait used to be believable :>

[fiery cove]

🥂

[dim condor]

Hextech Gunblade was a terrible item

[fiery cove]

Actually true lmao

[opaque grove]

Your emerald friends are likely macroing for you with their pings and calls and that's why you can play successfully with them

[dawn plume]

Good

[dawn plume]

Lux support is a pick that i wish died long ago nobody plays lux support to actually support

They pick lux to mid lane in a duo lane

[placid igloo]

Riot is actually treating their community like shit and does not care what they think, hear me out. As several pro player and streamer pointed out the next season offers nothing to the game, nothing really changed, the new item (ap black cleaver) is heavily underused and poorly tuned, the new objective and map only further amplifies a snowballing and fast paced game, something especially pro players dislike. At the same time, Riot stated that they want to do more for the community and make the game better for the majority of players, however, how can this be the case if the major part of the main advertising platform for the game, streamers and pro players, actively dislike the changes made? How can you announce big changes to the game, which according to themselves should make it an entirely new game, and then release these changes? How much of a fuck is low enough so that Rioters can still spend the majority of their time playing this game without actively thinking about it? Imo, this game is doomed if they continue this path, not because the entrance floor of the game is too high but because the company in charge of balancing this game and making it enjoyable just does not care about the product and has no idea what is actually good for this game.
Thank you for reading.
P.S.: With the current item system, pls add Giant Slayer back into the game as a passive for crit users, otherwise we’ll just be stuck with Corki chilling at 53% wr for the entirety of a year just cos it’s Phreak favourite champ and APCs bot lane which is obviously not what the majority of the player playing that role wants, thank you for reading.

[opaque grove]

ADC getting pushed out of bot lane was inevitable. I literally said this would happen a good 5 years ago once people started to learn which non-ADC duos were strong

duo lane is won by the stronger duo synergy

and marksmen are not particularly empowering to allies, even if allies can make them a lot more effective (best duos do both for each other to a major degree)

[placid igloo]

P.S. 2.0: For an indication of how little idea of an idea about balancing this game riot actually has just look at Tier 3 Berserkers vs Tier 3 Swifties. 5% attack speed is a gold value of 125 gold, 5 flat move speed is a relative gold value of 150, not considering passives. With passives it’s even worse, Berserker passive which is only attainable by getting the Noxus Blessing has a relative gold value of 110% while Swifties have a relative gold value of 145%, even adjusting for gold differences you are paying 200 gold more on Berserkers for a worse passive and everyone will run around the map with 400 ms, making the game even more unbalanced since it heavily increases the viability of certain classes designed around not getting onto you, which will be much easier next season

[placid igloo]

No it wasn’t inevitable and no riot should have never pushed for this. It’s their core philosophy that the game should have a marksman and that they deal a lot of dmg while providing nth else, playing for adc is a core part of league as stated by several Rioters. Therefore forcing a change while it was completely unnecessary to do so is literally idiotic, it’s the same as with new releases becoming more and more overtuned and feature-crept. There is no need to do that aside from riot feeling like it. Why? Idk. Riot said it’s to make the game more refreshing, but even then there are better ways to do it, they are just more complicated to communicate. It’s easier to say “Adcs suck so you shouldn’t pick them” over “Adcs suck in these specific scenarios which aren’t guaranteed and therefore you shouldn’t pick them in these specific scenarios because X factor makes them useless”. I am not against the idea of having non marksman bot lane duos as long as marksmen are viable in other roles, but they sadly can’t be due to proplay abusing it and riot not wanting it, so bot lane is the only place for them to go but if they just suck, they suck and riots does nth to change that because that’s what they want. If you look at scrims or even preseason data of pro play, the only Marksman picked are utility adcs likr Varus and Ashe, because they don’t have to carry, while actual carry marksman like Caitlyn or Jinx just suck stat wise

[opaque grove]

They didn't push for it intentionally (they may have accidentally, perhaps), but even if they had done nothing, changed nothing, it still would've happened.

I'm not saying the class of marksmen and being late game scalers isn't a thing (it still is even if bot lane isn't their automatic position anymore), and it's good for the game

we've already been having solo lane viable marksmen in the game for a long time

[placid igloo]

Removing Giant slayer so that ADCs are worse against Tanks, which was their main thing, they were designed to kill tanks and bruisers, wasn’t intentional? Removing proper Crit scaling by not allowing you to itemise defensiveness properly without losing at least 15% dmg output wasn’t intentional? Making Corki a problematic character and still allowing him to perform because he’s ought to be easy and one of the few adcs that can actually deal with tanks wasn’t intentional? The issue is not what they did to gut the role, it’s what they didn’t do to provide adequate compensation

[placid igloo]

Yes, 3 if I remember correctly? And all of them were nerfed quite heavily as to where you can’t pick them in a scenario that’s favourable, it’s possible, just not good and you’re still running into the same issues

[opaque grove]

I definite miss ADC class having access to more anti-tank stat effects. IMO it's vital to balancing the class and the overall health of the game (otherwise you have issues w/ effective HP gap between tanks and ranged damage dealers and the need for the latter to have enough dmg to the former in a reasonable time)

[opaque grove]

lot more than 3, just 3 that were seeing regular play.

the 3 that got nerfed were because riot didn't want them in worlds (and also their interactions were typical picks in mid was problematic; hard for other party to interact with them at all in a way that wasn't just losing)

[placid igloo]

Yeah but if 2 completely out of the loop league players that simply play the game and don’t work for the community understand that principle, why does riot seem to be blind about that issue? If they don’t know about that they arent invested in their own game and shouldn’t be balancing it and if they do but don’t want to they don’t care about their community and therefore shouldn’t be balancing the game

[opaque grove]

I think I remember August talking about champion combat TTKs (time to kill) and what they were thinking about it and felt like they just didn't understand the systemic nature of the problems there

[placid igloo]

I understand that idea of nerfing for worlds, I would personally enjoy the macro oriented play style of gen g, where you could see the proper utilisation of Ziggs properly in a game and understand macro, over the fist fight play style of BLG, however, I get that the majority of the player base doesn’t but why not compensating the champions nerfed for worlds afterwards? Oh wait they did, just not the interactive part, just the unhealthy part of their kits

[opaque grove]

I feel like whenever riot changes a champ they either haven't touched in a while or isn't all that popular...they have no idea what they are doing

(and they don't evaluate their proposed changes they way the should: look at from the player's perspective: if this is changed to that, what would a player do with that result?)

[placid igloo]

Yeah I remember that video, but their initial flaw is taking overall average ttk, so they don’t get rid of outliers like Yuumi hitting a Mundo or a 6 items Zed killing a Yuumi, maybe they did, however, even then it’s not a good way of assessing the information about damage. An adc should kill a tank with 6 items in a fairly short time, same way an assassin should kill an adc instantly on 6 items, however a tank shouldn’t kill an assassin on 6 items instantly, that’s the most obvious flaw in their assessment and yet they don’t get rid of it, not ever class should be able to kill every other class, but according to Riot they should

[opaque grove]

August talked a fair bit about class v class interactions

Which is more what I am remembering, and there he even mentioned the whole ADCs have to do a lot damage to kill tanks so ADC v ADC TTKs will be very low (and I was like, they don't really have to be if their damage is affected by how much defensive stats the target has)

[placid igloo]

Yeah, even for systems that are heavily used they don’t know what they do. TP changes are disgusting according to pro players, a change of tp to a quest like system would be better over the prolonged tp duration that just take away a lot of power. Imagine a kennen tp ing into the back line now, you have 4s time to react, short enough that the kennen has impact. With the new tp that doesn’t work, you are too slow to actually have impact or you tp so early that the fight just doesn’t arise and you get collapsed on

[opaque grove]

riot's understand of how their gameplay systems affect the feel of the game imo is very poor, they actually understand how changed to popular and oft tweaked champions will affect them pretty well, but they seem to not even understand how the systems that we have make the game feel as it does

[placid igloo]

Yeah, imo, the best way to target that would be to just make crit max hp based with scaling attached to the items, so you have like a flat 5% max hp that you deal as bonus dmg on crit, scaling to let’s say 25% at 100% crit with IE. It has to be bonus physical dmg to keep it balanced, with the added benefit that LDR actually works again

[opaque grove]

like the whole lane swapping in pro at worlds this year and riot's hamfisted attempt to get ahead of that (which failed and we still saw lane swap at worlds) by just increasing tower resistances on mid and top towers

[opaque grove]

amping dmg w/ bonus hp imo would be even better, even tanks get like 50% of their health pool from base hp

[placid igloo]

Yeah I saw that changed and laughed my ass off, lane swaps were never about gold and platings but about exp and match up avoidance. The way you could target that is by adjusting EXP shares depending on lanes, like 93% on duo bot but only 83% on duo mid and top. Yes that would limit the ability to innovate the game, but it’s better than dealing 9 dmg per auto to turrets after getting fb on top

[opaque grove]

and creating jg gap though jungle control too

a funny side effect of the bot tower not having the protection is that the duo lane is actually the most volatile lane on the map and it's not even close

[placid igloo]

But then the stat would be useless in early mid game, you have to keep in mind that yasuo, yone and tryndamere sadly exist, they need a way to make use of the stat early game to mid game, so you’d have to do it as flat max hp unless you want them to just suffer

[opaque grove]

I was more thinking along the lines of giant slayer type amp of total damage

but crit ADCs also could have access to % damage like BotRK (same name passive so doesn't stack) could be very good

[placid igloo]

That would suck on on hit adcs that build runaans or pd, since you’d pay for a stat that you can’t use

Like Kog, Varus, Kalista, etc

[opaque grove]

I am suggesting a new item, on-hit ADCs still have BotRK

Just that it's now also accessible for crit ADCs without them having to sac their one non-crit, non-boot item for BotRK specifically

(and since it has crit, it can be tuned with far less worry of melees abusing it)

[placid igloo]

Sounds like a nice idea, but then again, we could just give LDR Giant slayer back and give a slightly smaller amount of that passive to Mortal Reminder so that it stays competitive, however, riot won’t do that since they don’t like it when easy champs suffer too much

[opaque grove]

I actually having giant slayer on the % pen item is a bit problematic

there are basically 3 ways in my mind to give anti-tank power to damage dealers:
-reduce effectiveness of resistances against them (% pen)
-reduce effectiveness of health against them (% damage)
-increase their damage against targets with more defensive stats (giant slayer and similar effects)

I fear having more than 1 of those on the same item may make it likely to be far and away the best option against everyone that builds defenses and I want to avoid the one best option problem if possible.

[placid igloo]

Yeah I get what you mean and I think it makes sense

[opaque grove]

It also creates more meaningful choices for ADCs because in some games enemy might have a rather squishy comp and now you'd rather build raw damage output over items meant to bust tanks to an extent

like IE is unironically a great 'I want more raw damage' type item for crit ADCs

Collector is kindof another since it has lethality on it too

I also wonder what value allowing bonus armor pen to exist in item pool again could provide (tricky thing here is the % can't get too high or it invalidates armor buys, but allowing a smaller % of bonus armor pen to exist alongside (total) armor pen could be interesting).

[placid igloo]

However I have the following idea in mind to change crit:
Crit is now a stat that applies on attack, not on hit so that items like tabis and Randuins fulfil their idea but without running into the issues of Caitlyn headshot or MF Love tap escalating the system (on attack things include stuff like Camille passive, an effect which is triggered and calculated as soon as the attack starts rather then when it hits, that way you also don’t run into issues like PTA dmg escalation) which deals no flat bonus dmg (so not ADx1.75) but X% max hp as bonus dmg. This percentage gets increased through stacking crit and crit amplifiers like IE. This way adcs would deal good consistent dmg against tanks, bruisers and other classes with defensive stats, while not escalating the TTK between squishy classes. However, we also have to tune the system as to where you are at some point able to kill those targets too without needing 12 autos, cos a talon doesn’t give you 12 autos to kill him, but you should be able to kill him under the right circumstances, a change like +5 ad on IE should do the trick, but idk haven’t run the numbers yet

[placid igloo]

It’s interesting, but never good, since it basically means that you are only good against armor stacking. Negating 50% bonus armor against a champ with like 15 bonus armor for the price of 3k gold is inefficient, since you’d do more by just buying a dirk. Against 300 bonus armor it’s basically even since you are negating 150 armor, a number close to 35% total Armor pen which is 130 (assuming 100 base armor plus 300 bonus armor), but then again, if the break even point is at 300 bonus armor+, how useful is it?

[opaque grove]

yea I remember when we had old LDR with 45% bonus armor pen and it completely invalidated buying armor on tanks (you just leaned on base armor and hp stacking because it was actually a better use of gold then buying armor that was giving just 55% of it's gold value in effective stats. This even against that same LDR that had the old giant slayer passive.

I was thinking of issues with things like full armor rammus and the like

where even w/ 30% armor pen they feel like physical damage is almost non-existant

being able to, for instance, itemize 25% armor pen alongside 25% bonus armor pen, with the latter stacking multiplicatively with the former could be interesting

you would effectively have 25% pen against base armor and 43.75% pen v. bonus armor with both (I am thinking separate items here)

[placid igloo]

How do you get to the 43%? Sorry maybe I am just having a hanger here

[opaque grove]

I also miss old Cut Down, having a giant slayer esq. effect from runes that could be stacked w/ the actually passive was honestly so good for ADCs v. tanks

[opaque grove]

target effective bonus armor is 0.75x0.75=0.5625 -> they are losing 0.4375 of their bonus armor, or 43.75%

[placid igloo]

Oh yeah sorry, I did indeed have a hanger there haha

[opaque grove]

yea, stacking % pen math is kinda weird

reminds of me mathing out how the dmg amp achieved from flat pen worked (very insightful)

[placid igloo]

Yeah, with your example, plugging in the 100 base armor the break even point of total compare to total and bonus would be 200 which is nice, and yeah it could work it’s just that riot doesn’t have those kind of ideas since they are too overwhelming for the majority of players

So you’d need 200 bonus armor to break even at 300

[opaque grove]

yea, bunch of fancy numbers leaves silver sam going "huh?"

[placid igloo]

Yeah and you wanna know the best part? Since Riot’s system of calculating dmg dealt to you after calculating armor lines up nicely with this graph, you’re dealing a total 57.6 dmg more per auto with both items

Now try to explain to a silver player that they are ought to spend 3k gold on an item that gives them over all 57.6 dmg more

[opaque grove]

yea reminds of how I keep telling AP players: deathcap no later than 3rd AP item

[placid igloo]

Assuming your ad is as high as the enemy armor value ofc

[opaque grove]

and lots of people act like that's too early (it's not, if anything, you can go hat 2nd if there isn't a strongly appealing 2nd option and it's completely ok cost efficiency-wise), at 3rd item deathcap is stupidly cost efficient, let alone that most AP champs are burst reliant and so, really need to 'stay ahead' of the curve for having enough burst for their rotation to kill.

[placid igloo]

Also, smth you get from this graph if you actually pay attention to it, as soon as an adc has both armor pen options your armor value per armor drops from 30g (roughly) to 60/7 which is like hilarious imo

[opaque grove]

yea it makes bonus armor pretty weak, but it's also a 2-item investment from the ADC to achieve this result.

[placid igloo]

Yeah it would be fair tbh

I am spending nearly 6.5k gold, so I expect that you’re turning into a piece of paper for that kind of investment

[opaque grove]

problem w/ old LDR is that it was striaght up 1 item w/ 45% bonus arpen and giant slayer passive on top (I legit built it later in game v. no armor frontlines just for the giant slayer and ppl ? pinged that)

like 20% more dmg against their frontline is doing more for me than another item w/ 20 more AD or whatever when I am 4+ items

[placid igloo]

Yeah, it’s kind of disgusting how little many players know about this game but it is what it is

I gotta head out tho, got uni in like 7hrs and I still gotta sleep, so see ya was nice talking to ya

[opaque grove]

speaking of which, there is a handy shorthand for estimating how powerful your lethality is

if you have x lethality, v. a target w/ x armor, it is an x% increase in dmg, versus a target with x+100 armor, it is an (x/2)% increase (half as much) in damage

[placid igloo]

Yeah right now it’s just target armor - lethality and then you have to know that 100 armor is -50% dmg reduction without diminishing return, but that’s too complicated for most ppl

[opaque grove]

the way to estimate it on the fly: take targets armor, remove lethality from that number, determine how much mitigation they are getting from that, scale down lethality% damage amp by that mitigation, you have the actual % amp achieved

One takeaway is that lethality isn't all that bad against targets that are itemizing armor, but that it is, obviously, better v. squishies and in particular, since % pen is applied first, lethality works very well with % pen to further amp your dmg (% pen actually enhances lethality's contribution to the overall picture there a bit).

[lament saffron]

balancing the game with low elo in mind is an absurd take

the entire point of the game is to learn and improve with the tools u have at hand and the rules that set the confines of the game

just because ur incapable of learning doesnt mean it should revolve around making u feel good that u cant play it properly

they dont make chess variations to suit newer players better

ur given the tools and ur given hundreds of thousands of hours of online material to learn from

[drowsy zinc]

Support decides bot lane unless it's Low Elo or the adc is playing a mage

[vague arch]

Ong every day people post this lmao 😭

[fast atlas]

Pyke's hook mana cost is absurd

[vivid sinew]

wdym ? too high or too low ? looks fine to me

[fast atlas]

Too low

Btw I think it wouldn't hurt having actual basic info for champs and their abilities in their champ tab on the main menu client, instead of a vague description. I'm sure the technology is there.

[austere escarp]

The wiki already exists

[lusty dawn]

Yes I don’t have to run from one lane to another 24/7 and spam ping when an objective comes up for them to go it instead of me having to rotate towards it I can actually do something with my lead as they would usually need 2 or 3 to kill me, causing us to win. Basic braincells are something that doesn’t exist, I know how to macro but in low elo it doesn’t exist

You also won’t see things like them dying over a fight over blue for no fucking reason, which happens in almost every game

[fast atlas]

Then it will be even easier to port all the info into the client, nice

[pure crescent]

Based

[placid igloo]

I agree

Riot shouldnt make the game easier, just provide proper tools and information to make the communicatability of the game better and to give new players a better idea of the game from the start

[mossy adder]

August disagrees, I believe he stated in a stream that he balances certain champions around low elo because it’s where the brunt of their playerbase is

[lament saffron]

mental affects between 10 - 30 % of how u play, but skill makes up the vast majority

players need to stop focusing on "working on mental" and develop that energy towards self reflection

[molten marten]

tank meta is worst meta

[dawn plume]

The vast majority of the playerbase is considered low elo, balancing for the top % of players only is what kills a game

You quite literally have to or it will just harm the game

We already have champs terrorizing low elos and that shit is miserable to deal with its not healthy

I dont agree that the game should be made easier i think its fine where its at now you cant really simplify it much more but balancing any game really should be done for majority playerbase

And majority playerbase happens to be lower elos

[pure willow]

memories of Yi taric strat bot lane that actually got silvers to high diamond.

[opaque grove]

yea, Yi is doing this less now because of changes he received that added skill expression to him. Though it does mean that some of those that used to play him aren't enjoying him as much because they aren't having the same success now.

[opaque grove]

heck I've played a ton of non-marksmen bot lanes and that was how I reached the conclusion that ADC bot lane will become obsolete once the playerbase learns enough about what non-marksmen bot lanes work (and why).

[fiery compass]

i dont think this is actually a hot take at all

[dawn plume]

Thats not a hot take at all thats like

The coldest take ive ever seen

[placid igloo]

It’s fun how Riot wants to get rid off of Lane Swaps so desperately and yet there is already a new strategy for it to work, not necessarily a hot take but I think it shows perfectly how little they understand about their own game

[pure willow]

I get it. I was telling others about the champ I play and how he is extremely weak lol. They didn't believe me and sllooooowly but surely feather by feather. He has been indirect nerfed and direct nerf to death lol.

[chilly girder]

The new tp is garbage shit

[lusty pasture]

i had a game once where we were winning every lane but their jg managed to 1v9. he added me after and showed me his challenger account.

[lusty pasture]

how is this controversial

[chilly girder]

Because its fking shit

[lusty pasture]

yeah and everyone knows it is

[chilly girder]

its useless now

Yorick is useless now 😭 they nerfed all splitpushers

[lusty pasture]

nice

i was getting sick of split pushers, 4/0 them, if i die once in a teamfight on another lane the inhib is gone

[wispy ingot]

damn that's crazy, anyways

[chilly girder]

Wait nvm yorick its the only splitpusher than don't seems affected with the new tp

Easy send the maiden to another lane and push another lane and ez

[lusty pasture]

better than it being a champ that can kill my champ

[dawn plume]

Yeah thats the point

Its not completely awful though its still helpful at times its just not mandatory anymore

[keen girder]

Warwick is awful. He needs to go.

[opaque grove]

I don't feel like there are all that many champs that are really in a bad state right now, some are definitely weaker than they aught be but nothing like unplayably bad.

[mossy adder]

League players don’t care about winning, they only care about carrying and trying to be the main character.

[opaque grove]

not even a hot take tbh

[placid igloo]

I fully agree with this take

[placid igloo]

Imo, tp should always be mandatory for scaling or set up champ since they shouldn’t have the dmg to kill you early even with ignite and every other summoner spell is not that useful overall, plus they can actually get more value out of a better reset timer, since they’d get a better wave state and get to reduce their opponents pressure by a lot simply through resetting once and getting a smth

[pure willow]

Play fizz into something like irelia, and watch how fast you change your mind lol. The champ is the definition of unplayable. When youre "ahead." You're actually at best equal.

[placid igloo]

I really don’t get that idea tho: We don’t buff certain champs because it’d be too frustrating and lead to a lot of community backlash and yet they leave certain toxic kits strong for no reason

[pastel pagoda]

-I like the new season.
-I like the Noxus map and hope Riot is gonna continue the trend of a new seasonal map. I'd love to see a Demacia, Ionia, Freljord, Ixtal, Targon, Shadow Isles, Bilgewater, Shurima, Void, Camavor map.
-I like the feats, makes everyone move more as a team, though first blood isn't good, it makes laners think more about the consequences of coinflipping before I finish my jungle clear.
-I like the new UI in the client more than the old one, it looks clean, though the loot page still sucks with the gacha change.
-I think most league players are frightened by change and they can fill the grand canyon with their tears. Stop crying

[opaque grove]

Last time I played FIzz and I was dunking on people. but I can see how that lane matchup might be miserable for Fizz (there are certainly unplayable matchups right now, that's now what I was getting at).

[shell hamlet]

I agree that this split start actually feels pretty decent compared to some of the previous seasons lmao

[dawn plume]

I always hear fizz bad but everyone just gives me the complete opposite of that impression all i hear about is him 1v9ing games if he doesnt int his lane

And thats truly just how it goes sometimes with a fizz on my team or enemy team he always gets giga fed and one shots everything

He'll E your cc or big damage and continue to delete you

I too have played my own fair share of fizz 1v9s

I wouldnt say hes broken but he definitely feels anything but weak

[rocky perch]

yh fizz is hella wack when he doesnt have brainrot and just giga lose his early

[placid igloo]

I dont like the game being so fast paced that I am lvl 16 min 23

and everything else that comes with it as a consequence, like the snowball and stuff, id prefer a game to last on avergae 35min over 15min ffs

It has much more to do with skill to play a long drawn out game with slow tactical manoeuvring than to stomp lane 4 0 and getting a free win cos the enemy doesn’t want to play anymore

[opaque grove]

I 100% agree with this, og season 1 pacing is definitely something we lost along the way that should come back.

[shell hamlet]

haha funny good bait

[placid igloo]

No it’s just true

[shell hamlet]

haha funny good bait

[placid igloo]

Hard stomping lane just requires you to be good at the champ you locked in and the match up drafted, it takes like 30-40hrs of gameplay to do that for a broad range of match ups and champs. Yet, even after several hundred of hours of scrims you still see a huge difference in macro if you compare Gen G to G2, or even between Diamond players and GM players

So, imo, the better or rather more important skill in league is macro. There is a reason pro teams do tests regularly and have an entire staff of people analysing everything into the finest details, with personal coaches in terms of champs are from experience the people who do the least cos there are only small edges that you can get anyways

[shell hamlet]

why are most people unable to climb then if it takes 30-40 hrs of gameplay to learn a champion and have good micro

[placid igloo]

Cos they don’t play enough games to reach their true elo

[shell hamlet]

??? most people dont have 100 games on a champ?

[placid igloo]

most ppl dont play 100 ranked games to begin with

[shell hamlet]

wtf in what world brother

nah nvm wp good bait I fell for it

[placid igloo]

In the world we call reality

The average soloq player plays 86.3 ranked games

Which is not even 1/3 that you’d need to actually reach your true elo

[shell hamlet]

source? and you think you need 300 games to hit your 'true' rank wtf? you mean your absolute peak?

[placid igloo]

Source for soloq stats is Riot August and Phreak and for true rank, no it’s just how the elo system at its core works. You need sample size, a lot of it actually, to be accurate. Just cos you’re peaking Diamond 2 doesn’t mean that’s your true elo, if you can keep that rank over several hundred games it is. People call it “hard-stuck” which just ain’t true. If you are playing on that level over several hundred of games it’s your elo and to get better you don’t have to spam more games but actually get better at the game

Elo isn’t equal to MMR, mmr is the actual elo system, not Elo

[shell hamlet]

where did they post the number of games the average player plays? I just want a page

[placid igloo]

Go to YT, type in “August LoL ranked” or “August LoL hard stuck” and watch the clip

[shell hamlet]

can you not just give me a link

[placid igloo]

Or you do the minimum effort of research yourself

I mean you are anyways not getting the point

[shell hamlet]

minimum research to prove your point of a very specific number idgi man shouldnt you be the one to prove that point since you brought it up?

[placid igloo]

I bring up the point that most players don’t play enough games to get to their true elo, whether that’s on average 86.3 or 186.3 doesn’t matter, since either way it’s not enough, but yeah just for you I will take 3min of my time and look up the clip

Cos you’re a special snowflake 🫠🫠

[shell hamlet]

thanks dad!

[placid igloo]

Okay actually I cba looking through all clips, either way, even if that number is higher, it doesn’t take away from the main point of my statement

[shell hamlet]

HAHAHAHA

[placid igloo]

Watched 4 clips got 2 ads bro fr just sucks as a platform

[shell hamlet]

google AI said on a cursory search the average player plays around 200-300 games per year, if not more. Good cope

[placid igloo]

Yeah but it’s either way not enough

That’s 100 games per split with the 3 time reset of last year

[shell hamlet]

so according to you sir how many games is the minimum a player needs to play to reach his 'true' rank? 500? 1000?

[placid igloo]

Per reset or per season?

[shell hamlet]

you act like MMR is hard reset every split when its soft reset and you barely lose any hidden value, especially if you argue the average player needs hundreds of games per season to hit their 'true' rank. Do you fail to see the logical inconsistency?

[shell hamlet]

I reiterate you say it takes 30-40 hrs of gameplay to be good at a champion and be good or acceptable at micro in lane. You also state that longer games are a larger indicator of skill expression. Do you understand the length of games decreases on average as you move up in rank from iron -> apex tiers?

At the moment, the average game that isnt surrendered in this current split dia+ is 29 minutes, compared to previous split which was 27 min on average for masters+(off the top of my head). In other words, average game length has increased as of the moment. So your entire first point is actually moot for apex tiers. :/

[placid igloo]

No the issue is the following: Elo as a system works kind of like a “win what you take” system. So if you get +30LP in both Elo and MMR your enemy has to lose those 30 LP, so that the system stays balanced, meaning on your true Elo according to your MMR on 50% wr you can’t climb anymore, side effect is that the average of all of the players, no matter how high the highest challenger is, is always the same, since in this system no points can be lost or given, it’s what we call a closed system. In this system you get an assigned start value (average of all players usually) and then bounce up and down for a while, depending on how many games you win or lose, which give you a value that increases through win streaks and stagnates during loss streaks for a while. So, in order for that game to balance you have to play consistently a lot of games, otherwise your Elo will always be non representative of your MMR, since you can have luck by hitting a winning streak or the other way around. We know that League doesn’t work with a clear elo system in contrast to chess, since they want to reward people for just playing, meaning you will always get a little bonus for winning that what you should get. So, in order to balance out this inconsistency as well, to a point where your Elo is representative of your MMR you need even more games.

^ Short version, there is a lot more to explain

[placid igloo]

No, in Apex Tiers people just know when a game isn’t winnable anymore and the enemy players know how to finish a game, therefore you have by default more surrenders. To go back to a chess analogy, in let’s say 300-400 elo chess nearly every game is played out til checkmate, whereas people at 3000 elo usually resign after 20 moves if their position is losing, simply cos they know their enemy can and will finish properly. It’s just smth that comes with experience and knowledge of the game. That said, it’s not perfect. Sometimes players continue playing especially in high stakes tournaments or games, simply cos they might have a tactic or some kind of advantage later down the road (e.g. past pawn or king activity). And imo a long drawn out game is more entertaining and fun than an easy win. Yes chess gms could play completely aggressive and have every game done by move 20 in either way, but they choose not to, they choose to be consistent and play games out, if they actually matter to them, simply cos they have more control over the game and they can actually decide what’s happening on the board. League should be more like that, slower paced and strategic and not fast paced and chaotic, I mean why do you think pro play looks more like a chess game than soloq? Yes communication is a part of that, but even then they could just lock in kata mid and rengar jungle to coin flip the game, does that work? No cos at some point restraint and actual game play is more important than fast wins with the risk to lose hard. Simply said: apex tiers know how to convert an advantage better than irons, leading to shorter games due to ffs and game finishes. Restraint and slower gameplay offer more control and freedom in the game, therefore the game should be more balanced in that regard since it offers a fair playing field for either side to make a mistake and making mistakes is good cos it helps you getting better at the game, however, one mistake shouldn’t mean game over since at that point the game should just be a 1v1 death match

[shell hamlet]

nerd talk blah blah blah

League isnt chess and it will never be chess. If you really think the average player will climb further than they have in 100-200 games by playing another 500+ games in a season without working to become a better player seperately ur a clown

[placid igloo]

No it’s exactly what I am saying, I just don’t think 200 games is a good enough sample size and people should complain about hard stuck or losers Q cos their sample size isn’t enough to balance out inconsistencies within the ranking system of league

[shell hamlet]

idc if ppl surrender thats why I specifically stated without surrendering. Including surrenders the time is cut down even more, furthering my point even more.

why do you keep comparing a static game like chess to a moba where actions are unilateral if proper retaliation doesnt take place. Its an inane take.

League being even slower paced invalidates early game picks that are reliant on ending games before the enemy team scales. Why would anyone play pantheon/samira/pyke etc. if every game is fucking 50 minutes long on average.

I dont care about pro play either this is a discussion on solo queue, as you talk about ranked games necessary to hit xyz rank. Why the fuck does pro play matter in a solo queue environment? No one plays perfectly and thus thats why a lot of picks are viable in solo queue vs whats viable in pro play.

[shell hamlet]

losers queue has been both said by riot official sources and statistically proven by some redditor to not exist empirically. Sure you can get unlucky or get lucky, but in the end thats life. Tough nuts if you get fucked over for a dozen games. I guarantee you'll get on a winstreak you dont deserve at some point for a dozen games as well.

ngl I should probably spend less time talking to people on here. The braindead takes make me want to quit my job irl

[placid igloo]

1. That’s why I even included in my statement that people simply know how to end games therefore shortening game time, whereas iron players don’t. It’s a skill to close games, not micro but macro, proving my point that being good at this game requires more macro than micro, cos yes a bronze Darius can go 4 0 in lane but he might not be able to finish the game in the time before his champ gets out scaled.
2. Cos the games are much more similar than you think. In chess you’re aren’t always punished for every mistake, same as in league. Yes chess is 1v1 but still by no means static, the game played properly is dynamic and does include several stages of the game where people need to do different things.
3. Well, in that case it’s on the players to be better and make their champs work, they simply have to put in effort, since none of the champs are demanding. Compare the skills you need on pantheon to the skills you’d need on Kayle to accomplish the same task. With a longer average game time, both have to put in the same amount of effort for winning, since nth changes fundamentally, just more time being added. Yes in theory it favours the scaling champ more but they are by no means useless, it just requires them to be better to win, instead of having the advantage that their enemy (kayle) in average doesn’t hit their strongest point while they are already starting close to it.
4. But you should. It’s close to the optimal way of playing this game, these people are literally some of the best in this game. You should try to play the way they are playing and also cos the game is balanced around that environment

[placid igloo]

Yeah but the issue is that the ranking system only works if you play enough games as to where streaks don’t matter. Think of it as a literal coin flip cos the system is made in a way that over time you have to have 50% wr, no matter your rank. In a coin flip experiment, streaks are normal, and yet over several thousand of coin flips it’s basically 50. League’s entire system is based around a big number of games played by each player, meaning 200 games is by no means enough of a sample size, since in 200 coin flips you may just have a 40/60 split, doesn’t mean coins aren’t 50/50 it just means that you haven’t done enough of them to balance it out. Player skill at some point doesn’t matter, if you put Chovy into an Iron game he’ll have close to a 100% wr until a certain point, doesn’t mean he’ll always stay on 70% for all eternity if he continues to play on that account, cos at some point he has played so many games at his true elo (challenger) that he is at a 50/50 wr or at least close to it

But again, that system only works if you continuously play a lot of games

Also, pls don’t fall for the trap of saying “your skill makes it better above 50%” cos no that’s not true, until you teach your true elo, yes, afterwards it simply balances out or you get better, which raises your true elo. Either way at some point you’ll be at 50% wr consistently, whether that’s 1800 LP challenger or Gold 4 only depends on you, how much time you spent in this game and how good you become. If a gold 4 player over night gets the skills and macro of a challenger player he’ll hit challenger, if he has an amnesia and drops to the level of an iron player he’ll become iron, again, only after enough games are played, not immediately

That’s also why op.gg reviews are useless, you either are at your true elo or didn’t play enough games, makes no sense to look at champs and win rates, since the only way to get better is to get better and play enough games to prove it. And if you can’t, cos you start dropping again, then you didn’t actually that much better, a bit for sure, but not enough to consistently keep that level. That system is good btw, riot shouldn’t tweak it no matter how many players complain, climbing should only happen by playing a lot and getting better

[lament saffron]

what exactly is ur take here besides the fact that people dont play enough to learn the game

[shell hamlet]

its just advanced level bait dont fall for it

[lament saffron]

the game is static, there is always going to be a right and a wrong play in league. the outcome may be influenced by outside factors, but statistically from a standpoint, like chess, there is a right and wrong play. if a player flashes in and nearly dies but enemy misplays and they get the kill, it was still not the correct play

ur third point is completely worthless, as the meta (which champions are stronger and when) defines game time. emphasizing more strength on late game scalers completely invalidates early game champions as it did in the past in tank metas and earlier seasons where adcs would farm to 6 items before teamfighting once and winning/losing the game. if u cant win playing a late game scaler when prior to the introduction of atakhan and the trials, then thats on u

[lament saffron]

if ur skill didnt decide ur mmr, then how are challenger players speedrunning back to their rank in so few games? how come people complain about smurfs so often carrying and ruining their soloq matchups ?

[placid igloo]

My point is the very thing you don’t seem to understand as well so let me try to explain it

[placid igloo]

1. Yes and I said nth else, I was the one comparing League and Chess while the other person I talked to would deny it
2. But how is that possible? You wanna tell me if I just channel my inner Goku my lvl 6 kayle will our value the enemy lvl 6 Darius? Or my 2 items Cait will just one shot enemy talon by staring at him menacingly? Or my Azir will just not be a uselsss pigeon until he has 3 items cos until then the best you can do on the champ is abusing the enemy for not knowing your champ? Imo each player and each champ has to have the opportunity to be useful and useless in every given game. Just cos you locked in Darius doesn’t mean you should get to insta win the the game against a kayle, your first 15min should be easier but that’s it, sadly a fast paced game simply means that those 15min is all that matters and completely invalidates the main counter play to certain champs which is simply said time and money. It doesn’t mean they are broken by any means, just that their counterplay requires games to go longer so by shortening the game length riot is cutting off some counterplay

[placid igloo]

You’re answering your question within itself and prove to me that you didn’t read it at all: Challengers on new accounts are speed running back cos the system adjusts their MMR, their true elo if you will, meaning the system recognises they shouldn’t be in that Elo and makes them climb, it was literally explained with Chovy and an iron account in my message. The system isn’t meant to make climbing unnecessarily difficult, it just rewards streaks, which is exactly what a 90% wr challenger has, a long win streak. For your second question, it’s literally like you’d load a coin to guarantee a certain outcome for a certain match, but the issue is that the system is made to balance it in the long term. Yes you may get 1 game for doing absolutely nth cos your jgl is a Smurf, after 300 games that one game doesn’t matter and yo most likely have already had a game where the enemy had a Smurf and you lost cos of that, bringing it back into balance. In the end all you have to do is play enough games and wherever you end up on after 300-400 games is close to your true elo, if you play another 200 and don’t climb a significant amount you aren’t hard stuck, you just have to get better to raise your true elo, which is nth else but a visualisation of skill, so yeah, just get better and play more games to prove it

[rocky perch]

damn thats a whole lot of words to say "people should spend even more of their time playing league"

[lament saffron]

and ur telling me in a meta where objectives spawn later that darius will be of any use when u can avoid him for 15 minutes early ? when tanks can run the game, extend fights to 2 to 3 minutes long ? u named azir, which is one of the worst takes u can have since the champion is balanced for pro play. any buffs towards him pushes him to be amazing, with long range harass, escape, lane dominance, teamfighting, skirmish, siege, etc. that champ has almost no flaws when hes strong. another long range harass mage u could have named were ziggs, lux, and xerath, except none of them are bad currently. the entire point of darius is to be a lane dominant champion. his kit was designed that way, hes been balanced that way, and riot developers have expressed the will to keep him that way. he was built to win lane. his tradeoff is sub-par teamfighting. the status of toplane is that u get stomped if u misplay. its been that way for years.

i agree that the new tasks put too much focus in early game aggression, but ur ways of expressing that point are fucking awful. u hate being stomped in lane and dont have a chance to come back because u fucked up and now cant come back? theyve tried extending game times before. look at what happened in all the tank metas in the past. u remember when amumu could microwave the baron himself? when teamfights took 3 to 5 minutes to play in seasons before that?

why not bring up the points that atakhan encourages borderline inting teamfights once u get the revive at no cost to ur own team? what about how it forces mages to shift into the botlane, phasing marksmen towards top?

[lament saffron]

so do streaks matter or not? ur stepping all over urself here.

[placid igloo]

It’s been that way for years but not forever. I do genuinely have issue with champs that deal equal parts dmg and tank it, imo they just invalidate core principles of a game, however, if tanks where actually allowed to be tanks and not bruisers but in green (only from a balancing pov where they are supposed to deal dmg) we wouldn’t have bruisers cos the class would be giga useless. Bruisers should, from a raw analytics pov, not exist let alone be lane bullies, cos what they want to do and the way they are strong is unhealthy for the game; if my opponent is 2 0, maybe not even cos of my mistake but him just bad luck, and my game is over cos the class snowballs so disgustingly, then imma ask, where is that fair?

[placid igloo]

Yeah tbh I enjoyed both; the tank amumu thing is sadly just riot not being able to understand tanks, cos the thing that has 5k hp with good resistances shouldn’t deal dmg but it for some reason does. Like, how about we gave items effects like bonus dmg for team mates and executing minions for lane push for tanks? Or a sun fire that deal huge amounts of dmg to a wave but basically none to champs? But nah impossible, damage creep has to continue

[placid igloo]

They can have an influence if you don’t play continuously (same amounts of games every day) and enough games, however if you do bit they won’t. Reality is that people don’t wanna play this game unless they are winning so riot’s system can’t ever work with 100% accuracy, but very close to it (99.999%) since people would have to be bots and just spam games no matter what happens

[lusty pasture]

turret respawn sucks.

[lapis pasture]

revert the season.

[lament saffron]

this is a team based game. if u wanted a game where u have completely priority over wins and losses, u should have chosen chess. bruisers were created as a fighter class, the same as how melee brawlers exist in rpg games. their entire point is to fight melee, and need stats to do that or they wouldnt survive in a game with so much engage/disengage.

[lament saffron]

because the moment u start fucking with minions, banner of command returns in different colours.

[lament saffron]

tyler1's entire climb to challenger on 5 roles.

[placid igloo]

Or, we don’t allow such a class to exist? Just genuinely makes balancing easier

[placid igloo]

Yeah but banner of command, in a non forcing way, meaning you don’t have to use it, is a good addition to the game. Just makes the game more complex and strategic

[placid igloo]

Bro took several years and heavily improved as a player while doing so, so yeah what’s the point?

[placid igloo]

Also, about your point, we can see it as a team game with 5 individual players playing alone or we add a vc to soloq and allow people to actually communicate with each other. More communication is never bad, just makes the game more complex since you also need to know how to shot call properly

[opaque grove]

fighters as a class have meaningful strengths and weaknesses and fill a worthwhile niche in LoL. Without them the game would be far less interesting to play.

[true falcon]

SEA server merge is just a response that League is dying. Riot thinks they can financially make up the loss of players by adding gacha or removing F2P rewards (focing people to shell money to get skins). Queue times didn't really improve.

Arcane could've enticed people to try League but Riot made it not friendly for starting players. Locked champions and expensive skkins. Even veterans are discouraging their friends to start playing.

I don't think Riot cares about their players and only listen to Tencent shareholders. Or at least they are suppressed to do so.

[placid igloo]

PoV when fighters get removed: Oh no, what do you mean I can’t just stay check my melee opponents for the first 15min of the game, this game sucks, I need to go play Fortnite.
Imo not a bad trade off

[opaque grove]

The only other typically melee champs in the game we have are tanks and assassins, both of which kind of aren't supposed to win that 1v1 (assuming both parties play it properly). Assassins burst isn't generally enough to kill a fighter and unless they can play 'keep away' well enough to buy time, they die before the get a 2nd rotation. Tanks aren't really supposed to be winning 1v1s with melees in general since tanks are more about CC than damage, and fighters are also expected to be durable enough to take in the chin and not just die immediately (how else do would they be able to do their job of threatening ranged champs in fights when they would just die on the way in everytime?)

[placid igloo]

They shouldn’t threaten ranged champs to begin with, if your job is to keep melee champs at bay and making sure they are useless, then they are fulfilling their role without having to be able to threaten ranged champs, since it’s not their job. Would you ask a physician to do a neurosurgery? No. Why? Cos it’s not his job. He still works in a hospital and still has his place to exist but there are some things he just can’t do, including neurosurgery. The same should apply to league. Your champ has one job, depending on what champ you picked and you should be good at that job, not everything. If bruisers are meant to be good against melee champs they shouldn’t be allowed to be good against ranged champions too, meaning you shouldn’t have itemisation that allows them to have access, i.e. dead man’s or strikebreaker. Your move speed and occasional gap closing tools like Morde E should be good enough to fulfil your role to win against melee champs, doesn’t mean you have to turn the numbers up to a point they should threaten ranged champs

If your argument is about competition and that they need to be able to do that to close games, I gotta tell you that that’s the core issue with bruisers and a reason they shouldn’t exist. If you actively have to cross boundaries to win a game, your class is literally just being played favourites with.

[opaque grove]

That's not their job though, they are supposed to be a threat to the backline in fights. That's the entire reason that the fighter class was created, riot had been trying to figure out how to make viable melee carries in LoL for a while (Yi was one of their first attempts, but beta+S1 Yi wasn't ever able to carry games the way they intended), They made Garen and gave his Q slow cleanse to help him get in and it proved to be not enough (Ashe just autos him again and he's slowed again). Then they made Xin Zhao and that worked (a bit too well, because his numbers were bonkers good at first but that was fixable and was addressed over time with patches). And Xin Zhao was the first ever proper diver in LOL (a subclass of fighters). Later on we got a better identity for champs like Garen and some were adjusted to be more like that in the juggernaut patch. More recent champs like Yasuo, Yone, and Irelia among a few others have gotten the skirmisher identity as well.

Fighters are good at 1v1s in general, that's part of their identity, but in teamfights their role is to try and kill the backline damage dealers (in juggernaut's case it's acceptable just to keep the backline busy long enough to win the fight for your team).

[placid igloo]

You see, that’s the issue, being able to keep the back line busy while you still deal dmg is idiotic. We have a nice role called tanks whose entire purpose is exactly that: keeping the back line busy while yours does the job. They aren’t meant to carry games but due to the reason that Riot created bruisers they have to deal dmg, which is why everything else needs to deal more damage creating a spiral of ever increasing damage started by bruisers. So if you want to make league more enjoyable you have to get rid of them, simply cos they cause too much harm. Divers are fine, the class can exist but it should be the only melee class with high dps, yes they have mobility too, but they are much easier to take down than a Darius or Garen, not cos they have less defensive tools but cos they can mess up, you can actively outplay them by being better. Against a Darius, Mundo, Garen, etc you can’t do that as a ranged champion, you have to keep the distance even tho you are supposed to kill them and “just kite them” doesn’t work against a 500 ms Darius as a normal adc, cos he also has a 30% slow which makes him even faster, which is also aoe and deals “damage”. The class itself isn’t healthy for the game, a fair game can never exist with them in the game but riot is either too stupid to understand that, which would mean they should be kicked out of office, or don’t want to implement it cos they think an unfair game is better, in which case they should also be kicked out cos what’s the point of having a competitive game if it’s not fair to begin with. It’s the same reason why professional poker is always player against player, so that the house edge doesn’t matter since there is no house to begin with. It’s also the reason why Shooters are so well liked, since it doesn’t matter how lucky you are with your headshots, you will lose unless you are better, but in league just being better doesn’t matter if you’re playing Cait against Darius, win lane and then still get run down on his strikebreaker and plated powers like with ghost, since the reasonable outcome (him dying) still requires you to play well while all he has to do is to use his stat advantage. If he can win, not by being better, but simply by having more stats, what good is it to play in the first place? Yes you can try to kite him at full speed, yes you can space him until a certain point and yes you will deal damage before he does, but it doesn’t matter if that damage simply isn’t enough to reliably kill him while he can, even tho he is supposed to be weaker

[vivid sinew]

it's me or bro is rly complaining about fighters in s2025 xd

pretty any champion that as been release after s9 can easily deal with them you are complaining about the wrong classes my man

if you complain about not being able to win a 1vs1 against a TOPLANER FIGHTER as an ADC i'm sorry but you don't understand anything at the game

btw it's one of the least played classes in high elo for a reason

[dawn plume]

What year are you living in

Fighters straight up meta rn with tanks

[bronze musk]

renata needs a buff on ratios or a rework :(

[rocky perch]

her ratios could do with a slight tweak but her kit is fine

[bronze musk]

or her ult duration OR travel speed

[true falcon]

imo the only buff she needs is the exclusion of her ult from interacting with Mel/Yasuo/Samira. It does not make sense for it to be coded as a projectile. I guess yasuo for "blowing the gas away"? Still too powerful of an ability to deny entire AoE ultimates.

Still, kinda dumb to be labeled as a projectile.

[rocky perch]

yh windwall being able to grief ults has always been kinda wack to me but like mel exists now so lesser of 2 evils?

[opaque grove]

So your issue is actually with Juggernauts. It's true they can be hard to kite alone, but if your teammates are there, they're supposed to use some CC on the juggernaut to keep them from getting to you. Juggernauts are supposed to be like wrecking balls in teamfights, you can to react to and deal with that problem, and it will take a while (Juggernauts actually have the strongest defensive steroids in kit of any class and it's precisely because they're expected to eat a ton of punishment. Actual tanks get more effective hp late game because they can build defense, but juggernauts have to buy enough damage to function. So they often have sac resists to do that. Like if you get little if any peel, yes the juggernaut is going to run you down and win, ditto the diver jumping on your and murdering you, same thing with the mage comboing you, or the assassin jumping on you and 1-shotting your ass. That's how it's supposed to work. That's the price marksmen pay for having the highest continuous damage output and excellent range at which they apply it.

[somber perch]

champ would be abused in pro play, shes already being played

[placid igloo]

The two main issue that just separate them from other classes imo is that they can’t really miss play and that they have enough room for error where, if they do, they can still kill you. An assassin just combining you is still outplayable if you have early enough information, a juggernaut sprinting you down over the entire map or simply using his gap closing tools onto you with range is kinda disgusting

[placid igloo]

I am complaining about nearly every champ released since Kai sa cos the champ designs are stupidly overtuned

[placid igloo]

Depends on how that 1v1 comes to be, in an isolated 1v1, like in a Jarvan R, you are ought to lose as an adc, in a long lane you should win, the issue is that for bruisers it’s too easy to get on top of an adc compared to how much more stats they have

[vivid sinew]

Do you understand that it's completely stupid to think about 1vs1 when it's about an adc which a class that rely on is team and support to stay alive and be able to deal heavy dmg and a toplaners fighter that is clearly design to win those 1vs1?

[vivid sinew]

lol

[opaque grove]

class is useless if it loses the iso 1v1, even if the ADC has room to kite, that alone is not supposed to be enough. (we actually got to see what that meta looked like in season 6, divers were unplayable and ADC was the most gigabusted it's ever been).

[placid igloo]

No it’s not, since both can be paired against each other and regularly do so every game, the only difference is that ADCs do require you to play much better than fighters do, which, imo, is better and healthier for the game. Champs should prove you’re better and not that you just have busted stats

[placid igloo]

Class should be useless and lose that 1v1 at some point in the game. Idk why people hate the Season 6 meta in retro spec, it was much better than what we have today, cos every adc you can play rn without gigs trolling is either corki and smoulder, 2 adcs i completely despise as a player cos the first one is literally having too much stats and isn’t getting nerfed cos it’s Phreak’s baby and the second one is the same, just that he is literally a Q bot and has no skill expression, or utility ADCs like Ashe Varus. Maybe if you’re lucky you have a Cait Lux angle but that’s it.

[vivid sinew]

nah i'm done you might be trolling that's not possible

[placid igloo]

No it’s just my opinion that league should be overall more skill focused on overcoming challenges within the game than to focus on snowballing

[vivid sinew]

mechanical skills isn't everything

you complaining about fighters just make feel like you have no clue about positioning, spacing and macro

those are skills too btw

[placid igloo]

And I don’t see how fighters, a class made to win by stats, have to make use of it outside of the minimum demand for every role

[vivid sinew]

they just trade some skills for others as I said everythings isn't about mechanical skills

they rely more on macro, positioning and limit/champion knowledge while adc for exemple is about more about positioning, spacing and mechanics

[placid igloo]

Yeah but knowing your champion and knowing how to position well throughout a fight is just the minimum requirement of every champ and role to have success in league, so once again, why should they have so much power if they only require the bare minimum of you to win?

[vivid sinew]

will you always answer half of what i said ?

[placid igloo]

No I will just pick out the points I disagree with

Cos other points are correct so there is no point in discussing them

[tulip granite]

Smolder's E duration need a buff

[robust jackal]

Briar feet is mid

[shell hamlet]

I come back 3 days later and this guys getting crucified like hes jesus still LOL

[opaque grove]

Better in what way? Mechanically, sure, ADC requires more skill than fighters typically, but in terms of macro and decision making (above the micro level), ADC is actually pretty simple compared to most fighters.

[opaque grove]

I mean they can lose it at 6-items if they don't play it perfectly, or the ADC outplays them. Season 6 meta was the worst in LoL's entire history (barring perhaps brief times where giga-busted things existed and were being abused until they got fixed). It was basically 2-3 ADCs, a tank or 2, and a mage or enchanter every game, because ADC was far and away the strongest class, so you wanted allies that could set up your ADC for success, nothing else was even worth playing. and Mages and even tanks didn't feel great in that meta either, it's just that their CC ensured they were at least useful (mages were often losing 1v1s with ADCs then even when the mage landed most/all of their combo, which was absurd). I think part of the problem you have is you started out in LoL in season 6 playing the most OP role and got used to being the main character, and now that's not always the case in games and you miss the feeling (and the agency that went with it). But it was absolutely god awful for the game as it shut about half the roster out of being viable at most levels of play (not just high elos/pro either even middle elos like Gold).

[fast atlas]

LoL's items are beyond boring

[rocky perch]

tahm kench is still disgustingly overtuned

[fast atlas]

I remember I suggested Cho Gath should be able to just pop-up from his Q if he chose to do so, as a joke. And then they gave that to Tahm Kench lmao

[placid igloo]

Yeah but idc about half the roster if I I feel like half the roster just shouldn’t exist in this game, just cos it makes no sense except for players who aren’t able to play the way this game wants to play but just want to perms fight and be a nuisance

[opaque grove]

That 'other half of the roster' is enjoyed by many (including myself) and imo (and that of many) enchances the overall game experience greatly.

[placid igloo]

Yeah but they are not pro play relevant or in some cases exist explicitly to make this game easier, both reason imo mean that they shouldn’t exist. I like the approach of Soulslike games much more in that regard: make the game a certain difficulty and keep it there for the entirety of the game

[olive quest]

remove marksmen from the game. so scared to buff or nerf the class because of balancing and theyre never in a good spot always piss broken or piss weak so instead of baiting marksmen for a "way to deal with tanks" +5% armor pen (still nothing to stop health stacking) just get rid of the role

[shell hamlet]

then you're gatekeeping most casual players out of the game. Congrats, you now have a niche genre game like gunz the duel where the barrier of entry is disgustingly high and your playerbase is just a bunch of no life degenerates with carpal tunnel at 20

[placid igloo]

I suppose we forget that souls like games are generally popular and well liked as well as the fact that people genuinely like challenges and the fact that they achieved smth. But hey it’s tik tok generation balancing, where achievements don’t have to be earned or worked for but just happen. What’s the point of pushing for the top 1% if you can get to top 10% without any issue except for time? Where is the incentive to actually work for progress if you can just do the same stuff over and over again and be successful?

[opaque grove]

what you're proposing would remove a lot of skill expression from the game, not add it.

[placid igloo]

What skill expression does Darius add to the game except “I fight and win unless you have more stats”? What skill expression does Ksante add? Like, imo, a lane of Shen vs Jayce is way healthier than Ksante vs Jayce for the simple fact that the mechanical ease of Shen micro wide gets countered by the macro scope of the champ, while Jayce does not necessarily have the same macro demands as Shen but has a a way higher difficulty.

[austere escarp]

Darius and Ksante are such bad examples

use something like garen or nasus instead.

[placid igloo]

The issue with those two is riot’s policy of “you can reach every rank with your champ”. Champs like Nasus and Garen are meant to be facilitators for new players into the game, that said they shouldn’t have the stats to work above silver imo. we had nasus and garen in LCK last summer which is smth that should have never happened

[austere escarp]

its called drafting

[shell hamlet]

statcheck champions exist for a reason. Not everyone is blessed with visual acuity and finger dexterity to play something like zed or azir at the apex level. If you want to play a game that embodies pure mechanical skill, again go play gunz the duel.

[shell hamlet]

blah blah blah

[opaque grove]

Darius literally has mechanics and isn't a stat-stick fighter at all (like there is a massive difference between how a masters+ Darius main plays their fights and a novice). K'Sante has an incredibly complex and interactive kit. Even seemingly simple champs like Garen can still have skill expression in other areas (knowing if you win the stat check or not is also a massive knowledge check, and is a skill in its own right).

[shell hamlet]

lets compare a single player campaign experience with niche multiplayer vs. a MOBA where there is no direct answer to every solution possible.

1.) I die to an attack that catches me off guard in souls. Okay, I gotta learn to dodge that skill.
2.) I die to being ganked at 8 minutes in with 2 casters on my side and 3 casters on the enemy team, while I have 88% hp and the enemy top laner has 63% with his W on a 3 second cooldown still and no flash. The enemy jungler probably has all summoners, but hasnt spent gold yet and is a level down on me BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH -

tl;dr souls is the shape equivalent of a pentagon while league is like an icositrigon(23 sided shape) in terms of decisionmaking. The point of pushing for the top 1% is to be the top 1% lmfao. If you can do the same things over and over and reach the same desired result, then there is no external need to change. Who cares?

[shell hamlet]

complex and interactive kit though hehexd

[opaque grove]

I never said it was balanced 😄

[shell hamlet]

W -> R -> W really interactive fr

[dawn plume]

I have no idea how K'Sante made it into his example, as bullshit as the champion is he is actually a bit difficult to pilot

There is a reason his winrate goes up the higher the rank

[vague arch]

Yeah even after they removed an amount of his skill expression he is absolutely one of the hardest tanks to play in the game hands down.

[dawn plume]

I'd say he is the hardest tank imo, he doesn't scale for shit and nobody knows how to play him past laning phase below diamond.

Unless im missing someone else

[placid igloo]

Idc about complexity or anything like that just value to the game and imo both fall flat except for player base satisfaction, neither champ does smth good for the game or their team respectively

[placid igloo]

Well, let me answer your question with one of my own: why shouldn’t riot care about both their game’s complexity and the adaptation of players? Should every kit no matter how idiotic and easy to execute be playable at the highest level of the game?
My answer to question 1 is fairly simple: if you decrease the overall complexity of league by allowing you to succeed in most situations, you devalue achievements within your own game, meaning that your player satisfaction over a longer time drops, since it does not feel like you actually achieved something, it just happened to be that the overall difficulty was lowered.
For question 2: no, definitely not. A design as simple as garen, even if it has drafting wise a certain value, should never be picked in the highest levels of play. They simply do not demonstrate what league is in a way that reflects the game’s structure overall. If Chovy Flash Q E R’s on garen he didn’t play anything better than a silver player would. If the entirety of league at the highest level of play revolves around the question of “how to answer B1”, which it does to some extent since drake soul, then the game is flawed on a deeper level than just champions, it just happens to be that the champions picked reflect the state of the game. Meaning if Garen is lockable in pro play, league is in a bad state since the champ offers nothing other champions can’t provide and is only picked cos you need an answer in draft that fulfils one purpose that has nothing to do with the champion itself, while limiting the amount of punishment you could receive

^this is also the reason you won’t ever see assassins in pro play again unless riot does smth stupid, they simply do not fulfil a good enough role in pro play and do not have any match up they just hard win by scaling, meaning if the enemy mid laner just doesn’t want to fight for push and has a jungle that can punish the assassin for doing so, they are just deadweight. Even in jungle they can’t be picked cos you will never get the free catches you could get in soloq on either enemy jungle or other roles

[shell hamlet]

1.) this is a competitive game vs other humans. You are not looking for an achievement. You are looking to beat the enemy team.
2.) stat check go brr ur just mad that ppl use their brain instead of just their fingers ig? which is hilarious considering your previous argument that macro is a greater demonstration of skill than micro is. If I draft better and have better macro I should be rewarded for it the same way a coked up 16 year old kid on adderall XR is for doing 0.00001 second riven animation cancels to absolutely maximize his dps.

[shell hamlet]

yea cuz ppl are actually not apes and can count in addition to track the enemy jungle(!) who would have thought that the best players in the game can tell their teammates when someone is missing or someone is pathing up/down? 0.o

[placid igloo]

1.) no reaching your desired rank and winning games should still be an achievement. Just winning cos duh I have stats is just not a good way for the game to continue.
2. Macro as in how to read wave states, rotation timers, reset and recall timers, yes. Macro as in knowing limits or finding a 10/90 play that might work but shouldn’t, no, that’s just not macro. To break it down: the macro twisted fate teaches you is better for the game and teaches you what the league map actually is. The macro a garen teaches you doesn’t, it’s just a flip that has to work for Garen due to his stats cos otherwise the champ is useless, which isn’t healthy for the game. At a certain point you just have to acknowledge as Riot Games that your champion is too easy for it to be viable in pro

[placid igloo]

Yeah, I get that, so just add vc to league, the entire game would be much better cos I could tell my bot lane that my enemy is missing and that they need to drop push for 20s

[shell hamlet]

1.) if I am winning then I am getting to my desired rank(?) LOL
2.) the latter part of your statement is champion knowledge, which isnt macro related at all but rather related to overall skill. Garen can know to leave lane and proxy so as to deny losing lanes and then scale into late game by having wave and matchup knowledge. Garen being a statstick is great for the game as much as I dislike to fight him because hes fully necessary, just like champions like mundo, mordekaiser, etc.

[shell hamlet]

no I just want vc so I can tell you with my voice that your mother doesnt love you :^)

[dawn plume]

As much as i despise oogabooga statsticks and wish for them to rot, they have a place in the game

It is frustrating to spend tons of time mastering a champion just for some grandpa to QER you as Garen or Flash R you as Malzahar from his retirement home but that's exactly why they are there, for people who aren't as mechanically gifted

If your macro is better you still just win

[fast atlas]

Dark Souls games aren't even hard to begin with

[opaque grove]

Both of them are a threat to squishy ranged champs and durable enough to not be easily removed. This means their presence controls space by virtue of making their vicinity an illegal location for squishy opponents to be. They provide steady threat in a way that at true tank does not because the latter is only threatening when they have CC cooldown(s) up+allies of theirs with damage nearby enough to prosecute the CC'd target.

[opaque grove]

Yea, they're more a case of 'it doesn't warn you about what's about to own your ass' so your ass gets owned...until you figured out how to not get owned by it, then it's not hard anymore.

Game's 'difficulty' is just in the FAFO stage.

[lusty pasture]

1. feats suck
2. atakhan sucks
3. mel sucks
4. battle pass sucks
5. bring back hextech chests
6. revert to s14 split 2

[fast atlas]

Halve tanks Damage, and double their CC

Also, Dr Mundo is a Tank

(This is a fact, but it is somehow controversial)

[lusty pasture]

who ever says mundo is not a tank

[fast atlas]

Many people in fact. They keep quoting 5 secs from a random Riot dev stream that says he is not a tank

I wouldn't trust a Riot dev to know their own game, personally

[placid igloo]

He has no engage or hard cc, he’s a bruised that builds tank items cos it’s more efficient to do so. Not a great idea imo but still not a tank as in a engage and cc heavy stack of hp and resistances

[placid igloo]

Yes they are necessary to have an easy category of champions but not required to be strong, kind of like “yeah it’s enough to just do good in primary school but in order to get into a good job you have to be excellent on an extremely high level of difficulty and skill”

[placid igloo]

Just this statement alone shows me that you don’t know how discussions work or that you have any meaningful input

[placid igloo]

Okay but how is that important for the game if a normal tank can do the same thing without being selfish or having to be ahead?

I know people don’t like to hear it but League should never be about one person being ahead or behind, it’s always about what all 5 champions together can and should do, so thinking in boxes and just playing for personal gain makes literally no sense, same reason why I hate riot for amplifying snowballing and stomp games, it takes away the need of 5 people to cooperate as a team to have success, something that would be heavily needed and encouraged by less snowball due to there being more time to get stuff done as a team. If your lane is hard losing and the game ends min 22 on average you are spending like 60-80% of that time in a hard losing lane, if it is against a stat check you can’t even outplay the other person. Meaning you get to play the actual game for an entirety of 20-40% of the game’s length, wow, great job 👏

[fast atlas]

All that is neat, but he is listed as a Tank/Fighter on the official website

[placid igloo]

According to the website nasus and aurora have the same difficulty so I wouldn’t be a whole lot on that

[fast atlas]

I play Dota 2, and VC arguments usually led to people becoming friendly. Actually hearing and saying stuff by voice humanizes your teammates

[fast atlas]

Don't they, tho?

Surely there are better examples of them not having a clue

VC is less toxic than passive-aggressively spamming a PNG

But brings no money, the PNGs do

[opaque grove]

a normal tank doesn't do this because they don't have a threatening amount of damage on their own, and if they have used their CC, then they have almost 0 threat until those CDs have elapsed.

[opaque grove]

This is more about snowball meta than it is about specific champ archetypes. This is why swiftplay is actually ironically a really good mode, losing lane doesn't end the game, but the lead still matters.

[opaque grove]

his play pattern is 100% juggernaut though.

[placid igloo]

Oh they do, if you just don’t make your community able to succeed simply by playing the game but understanding it on a deep enough level to realise that tanks are busted by design

[fast atlas]

He Tanks tho

[fast atlas]

Even Riot admitted it. They just give tanks damage so they are not "boring". Dunno man, maybe there are more things than damage in the game? Maybe don't force 2 traffic cones in eternal battle against each other, and let them actual do stuff in the map other than statchecking and damage each other?

Crazy concepts for Riot, i guess

I guess everything is getting dopamine from hitting big damages and gatcha pulls now

Also, Mages and Tanks shouldn't delete structures in 3 hits

"But then they cannot advance their lane" good, let it be a team effort

Make Marksman actually useful, at taking structures at least, since everyone else is better at killing champs already

[opaque grove]

He's durable, so are all juggernauts

[lapis pasture]

cope

[fast atlas]

Don't need to, I play tanks

But I feel a bit silly tanking 5 enemies, destroying a full-HP turret in 1-2 hits, and just leaving, alive

[cinder valve]

There should be a punishment system for hostage holders.

[rocky perch]

none of this is hot takes

not a single bit all of those are dogshit moves by riot

no champ should release with a 52% wr

[mild verge]

Having chat restriction is pointless. People who are and were restricted will not learn the lesson by not being able to chat. All it does is put any team with a chat restricted player in a huge disadvantage when it comes to communicating (especially cause they removed the most important thing that you could ping, which is bait). Riot has a huge community in all their games and they will never get rid of the toxic part. Might as well make auto censor messages more accurate and barely bypass able while absolutely stopping giving chat restrictions for general basic toxicity.

[shell hamlet]

just intro. voice chat so I can flame my team on a more personal level ty

[placid shard]

riot stopped making skins for the game in 2015

[placid igloo]

Riot made one huge mistake in the past 6 years which was the introduction of mythic items and ever since then they just try to fix holes or miss alignments in the system instead of improving it overall

[vague arch]

How do people post the same bait every week lmao

[lilac merlin]

Support should get last pick (maybe top)

[mild verge]

Top should almost always last pick. But support is second most important

[wispy ingot]

top should be last pick always

[lilac merlin]

I'm speaking from a pure macro sense. Support determines the identity of the game, whereas top has little agency over that. Meaning if a team is missing a tank, most top laners would opt to play a strong side match up over what a team comp needs. Not only that but support has the luxary of roaming and impacting other lanes for their team so being able to gauge what the entirety of a team needs is pretty important.

But with that being said, from the low elo games I play, support is sort of a "joke role" in that the way players play them in plat and below is just perma glued to the ADC and not understanding roam timers, obj prio, when to abandon the ADC, etc. So at least on top lane you can play what you know and do what you can and hopefully win.

[opaque grove]

pick order depends on a lot on teamcomp tbh. Like it's an integral part of good draft strategy and what order you pick things depends on what you're looking to pick and what the opponent is drafting/banning.

[tight mountain]

game is too fast and predictable by the 10th minute mark

removing hextech for skins that dont even put out the best ones is also bad and makes the f2p aspect of the game much worse

whats even the point of playing aside from ranking but even then its not even enjoyable to the slightest degree because of the changes that made snowballing so heavy to deal with

[mild verge]

Start paying, simple as that

[oak nest]

Hot take: Players who only plays the game to troll and intentionally feeds enemies have a degradation and humiliation kink.

[bold shell]

well yea if you're only doing that in league then you derive pleasure from it

[lilac merlin]

This isn’t a hot take 😂

[somber perch]

couldnt explain it better. I've played comp for about 3 years now and drafting has been a very important thing (you can win the game in draft basically). R5 is mostly reserved for toplaners or supports these days, but if you want to pick a solid toplaner to blind (cause you banned the counters or its just really hard to counter, K'sante I'm lookin at you) then it opens up for a lot of different interpretations of the draft. There have been instances where the priority on some champs is so high that jungle even got to r5 based on our teamcomp

[dawn plume]

Top is way too draft reliant to not be last pick

Whereas support can make do

Bad top matchups basically turn the game 4v5

[somber perch]

I completely disagree

toplane CAN be blindpicked easily (champ dependant), leaving support to have more agency in the game

supports roam to grubs, help push waves, decide the botlane matchup for the most part

streamers like druttut and tyler1 have even acknowledged that blinding support is so much more punishable than having to blind toplane

[vivid sinew]

i would agree in previous season but now with feats of strengh toplane does have a lot more impact and you rly won't your toplaner to give both three champions kill and first + prio for grubs

[somber perch]

I think your first argument is irrelevant. Feats of strength are good, sure, but if id have to choose toplane counterpick or support counterpick id always go for support counterpick sicne the 3v3, 2v2 on botside of the map will just be winning (more likely)

My toplaner being in a bad matchup doesnt decide the whole priority for grubs thing. Its more of an "can we win the 3v3 / 4v4" question.

[vivid sinew]

that never happens in solo queue tho

[somber perch]

and i think if my support picks a counterpick into their team / champs then the fight will be much easier to execute

that when my toplaner picks jax into renekton

[vivid sinew]

and even a support that get counter pick can still lane and roam when a toplaner is just fucked for the entire game

[somber perch]

maybe not for you, for me every game on grubs spawn its a full contest

unless my team accepts to crossmap, take drake / dive bot cause the fight would be hard losing

[somber perch]

toplane counterpicks arent as bad as you think they are, there are alot of blindable toplaners that can just neutralize laning phase

[vivid sinew]

people don't play a lot of champs and some are even otp also not much toplaners are blindable

i only have Gnar in mind and he still have rly hard matchup

[somber perch]

gnar, renekton, jayce, ksante, even gragas if you like it (JDG 369 loves it)

but also champs like rumble or kennen dont have incredibly bad matchups

ambessa, if renekton is banned

you have quite the amount of champs that can make you play lane "normally" in almost every matchup

on support your either an engage champ or enchanter and both can get insanely hard countered by support champs

melees = braum, engage = poppy, enchanters = karma/hook champs , dive comp = renata

[vivid sinew]

Jayce and ksante are just op champs, renekton and kennen get destroy by most tanks, Gragas is countered by ranged champs, ambessa is hard countered by renek so yeah there's rumble and gnar

[somber perch]

renekton is actually doing great into maokai, ksante, shen. Hes doing bad into like ornn ig but even in that lane ornn wont shitstomp a renekton

[vivid sinew]

that won't understand is that when you get countered as support you will still have impact and shouldn't die that much when in toplane if you get countered you can "only" be like 30-40cs behind if you don't get gank by enemie jgl and will just get dive everytime he come

[somber perch]

kennen i agree is somewhat weak rn, rumble is like 20x that champ rn

[vivid sinew]

no he get shit on by ksante and shen

[somber perch]

based on ?

[vivid sinew]

kennen is good but rumble is just "hidden" op for ages

[vivid sinew]

basic game knowledge

[somber perch]

then explain me

why pro players, my competitive toplaner (whos gm atm), and soloq stats state that renekton in k'sante is winning

[vivid sinew]

show it then

also shen just block renekton W

[somber perch]

check dm

[vivid sinew]

as i said basic game knowledge

[somber perch]

cant post pictures here

[vivid sinew]

oh yeah winrate means everything i guess

[somber perch]

they declare there is something going on

[vivid sinew]

they declare win percentage of a game where there's this matchup in toplane

so not much

[somber perch]

so off what do you want me to base it then, besides your word vs my word

[vivid sinew]

i gave you fact exemple (shen counter renek W) and you gave 1 stat that doesn't mean anything alone

[somber perch]

ye and mel w counters everything

[vivid sinew]

projectiles

[somber perch]

any source of damage

[vivid sinew]

at this point you are just making yourself stupid

[wispy ingot]

don't need to resort to insults

[autumn bough]

Mel w reflect projectiles
Her w is free taric ult

[somber perch]

you should see our dm's xd

[wispy ingot]

it's quite embarrassing that some people can't have normal debates over a topic without insulting

[somber perch]

Well I gave him as much opinions, statistics to back up my opinion, yet when i showed him a ss of my rank he said it was fake

[wispy ingot]

some people are just

[somber perch]

then when i told him to wait and i would SS on that acc with disc on the background he said he was wasting his time xd

[wispy ingot]

if i were more well versed on the topic of counterpicking i'd probs have more of a say but it's just lame to see someone just straight up be a loser and insult, regardless if they're "winning" or "losing" the debate

[wispy ingot]

don't expect much from league players

[somber perch]

im just trying to give my take and defend it with what i think is right

statistics back it up, even some pro players pick things to back my points up

[wispy ingot]

now this is something i can get behind

[somber perch]

yet that aint enough

[lilac merlin]

I agree with that on the micro prospective. However, a top laner can easily split to make up for lack of pressure throughout the mid and late games. When I look at draft comps, yes, top is THE matchup lane. But the support is literally in charge of being the glue to the team. And filling in the gaps, and imo that starts at champ select. Again, this is circumstantial, there are some drafts where it makes sense for mid to get last pick. But I still think supp is such a valuable role if played correctly.

[lilac merlin]

The point of the game is to do that lol. Winrate is everything

[placid igloo]

No it’s not, win rate is a useless stat to a point for both champs and players

You can be a terrible player and get to nearly every rank if you just play enough games on champions that are made to win or be a great player and get nowhere if your champion is incapable of doing anything. TF is a great example of that, you can have godlike macro and find insane roams, if your team is able to throw that lead there is nothing you can do. On the other hand you can be terrible on a champ like garen and still get leads and push those leads cos people until a certain level are incapable of understanding what they’re meant to do against you. In both scenarios the outcome is undeserved and yet that’s how the game is

[opaque grove]

There's a gigantic difference between a diamond Garen and a silver one, just because it's not expressed primarily through macro doesn't change the fact that there is a big skill diff there.

[placid igloo]

I agree, but the champ works with subpar skill as well, the main point is that Garen has the potential to just stat check people and win, something tf by design can’t do, and let’s be honest, even in diamond people play poorly against Garen

[vague arch]

Gragas isn't really particularly countered by range. Those are his worst match ups but even then they're completely fucking playable lol

[lilac merlin]

What you deem as deserved and undeserved is irrespective to what wins games. Part of playing any game is "gaming the game." Literally the defenition of meta. Which is inherit to a game like league. If your goal is to climb, than yes, the more games you win, the better player you are. This game heavily awards consistency and skill expression through winning games, the champs that consistently play well is what defines this meta, it's not shitty players pick up Garen and hit diamond, otherwise they're not shitty lol.

[placid igloo]

TLDR: In theory it doesn’t matter, but the sad truth is that the average league player plays too little games for it to even out properly. Meaning a meta will always form, not due to X Y Z being op, but players playing too little games for it to balance. Yes, it’s frustrating but it’s the truth, in theory league doesn’t care about what champion is picked or your win rate, cos at some point it does balance, it’s the entire idea behind the elo system. There is an average set by riot (which is the average rank and MMR value of all players combined) and everything happening up or down is a zero sum game.
Long version:
See, that’s a misconception, they will hit diamond, maybe not in 50 games but in 500 games, yes they will, cos at this point it is guaranteed that they have a win streak no matter what. It’s a simple thing that always happens with every statistic, it’s called variance. Meaning no matter how finely tuned your system is, there is always a certain uncertainty or rather difference between the expected outcome and the true outcome as soon as you run the real life experiment.
League’s system heavily favours people that play a lot on a regular level, meaning it doesn’t matter what champion you pick, if you are consistent over several hundred games you will climb a certain amount and then stop climbing naturally because you have reached your true elo, which is exactly the same amount as your MMR. However, your MMR depends not only on your current elo but also your overall performance. So if you simply have a consistent win rate if even just 51% you could theoretically get from iron 4 to challenger in a rather average win rate, simply by spamming enough games, but even then your win rate would drop to 50% in challenger
Both of these reasons together make win rate of both champions and players completely irrelevant, since both should equal out to roughly 50% over hundreds of games, the only reason why this can’t work is cos league players don’t all play the same amount of games. Meaning champions with a low skill level and a lot of agency, like garen, like Darius, etc. are more likely to win cos the players that don’t play that often are more likely to carry on these champions than on let’s say Azir or TF, cos both champions cannot carry without a team. A Darius doesn’t really care if his ADC is ahead cos he can carry a scrappy fight, a TF can’t do that, since he as a champion has too little personal agency to do so, which doesn’t mean you can’t pick those champions but you need far more games to enjoy the champion than with others.
A kind of weird side effect of the elo system is that theoretically every player at some point has the exact same level of play and the exact same elo points, which would be the death of the game for real, since you literally wouldn’t be able to win or lose elo. Granted this point will never happen in league cos it takes literally billions of years to accomplish, unless riot does a super hard reset, but they won’t cos they are aware of exactly that issue.

[lilac merlin]

I aint reading all that, but you're probably right

I concede

[placid shard]

I play twitch support and ignore bot lane and just try to annoy the enemy team

[atomic glen]

somewhat revert durability patch, increase sources of tenacity, change jungle pets

[worldly cipher]

Double down and take away blue essence and remove player account levels.

[limber veldt]

tanks need to stop doing dmg, %pen needs to be lower so that tanks can be tanky and not do dmg, bruisers and juggernauts need nerfs

[opaque grove]

naw, they nerfed item system but conveniently didn't touch tank items much, so now tank items became OP. ADC (the tank busting class) also lost some of their anti-tank multipliers (no much Giant Slayer passive, no more old Cut Down, which was basically a 2nd Giant Slayer passive and they stacked). Bring back anti-tank multipliers for ADC and tanks will be balanced (and ADC will feel better to play too without being broken against other classes).

[limber veldt]

tanks have lost their identity completely, just like adcs have, adcs are suppposed to slowly kill tanks, which doesnt really happen anymore, control mages do too much dmg to tanks, and in return tanks do way to much burst dmg for themselves. tanks and adcs have both not been balanced for about 7 years now, its always been 1 very far on top of the other, as of right now not a single tank is relevant in toplane, all of them are below 50% winrate, or completely left the lane, the only one that is remotely decent rn is poppy because she counters some of the meta champions, tanks have been shfited to support because they are not tanky, but they are usefull for their cc, its bad right now. tank items are not op, they are some of the least gold effecient build paths in the game, especially compared to items like black cleaver and sterarks gage

ad before you say what about kasante, he is not classified as a tank he is a fighter, neither is tahm, tahm is a juggernaut / warden

[opaque grove]

Control mages barely even tickle tanks once they buy 1 MR item with all the health they have

Only problem with tank's damage is that too much of it tends to be frontloadable (base dmg on abilities that do all of their damage at once), if they move their damage towards dmg over time effects, or abilities with short CDs (so less dmg, but more often=some DPS but less frontloadable). Then tanks won't be 100-20'ing squishies w/ their engage anymore.

Tank items are often at least as gold efficient as offensive items, and because most of them have health+a resist, you are soft-countering all burst champions even if you're buying the opposite resist of the damage they deal, let alone how good it is if you're buying the correct resist for them. DPS fairs better because of being a constant source of damage and having more core stats, but they still have to contend with quadratic scaling enemy effective hp against their dmg.

Tanks being bad in top lane has been true for an extremely long time because it's not a good use of the resources of a solo lane. Tanks don't need a lot of gold to function. A tank with more items isn't much better at being a tank, while a carry with more items will be vastly more helpful in helping your team win a fight. So putting the tank in support is the optimal use of available resources (jungle is 2nd best for this, but atm, tanks have lackluster clearspeed and so tend to struggle with tempo in this position).

[fast atlas]

New Morderkaiser skin is beyond doodoo

[vague arch]

Cold af take

[hidden frost]

I understand that they removed hextech chest

[placid shard]

Riot doesnt make arenas a permanent game mode bc they want people to stay on summoners rift

[rocky perch]

thats steaminghot to the point its burnt

also yasuo passive is too strong

[opaque grove]

it's getting buffed too XD

no more 10% less dmg on crits

[opal frost]

Tanks doing damage is actually balanced for pro play, otherwise if tanks are pure CC, they would be too strong in a coordinated environment. Just look at maokai as an example

Also, you have to look at it from a players perspective, would a player enjoy playing a tank that does no damage. This is the league community you are talking about, of course at least 75% of them want to do damage, otherwise people will say "this champion is so shit riot you terrible company"

However, I will agree the damage to tankiness ratio is too much because of the items

[limber veldt]

but that statement wouldnt stand in terms of statistics, tanks right now have very low playrate, and when did tanks have the highest playrate ever, during season 7 when tanks did 0 dmg but felt like absolute raidbosses to take down, people want tanks to do less dmg, butbe absolutely unkillable when ahead,gold was valuable on tanks, now tanks just provide their cooldowns and die in lategame fights, they dont get to be tanky anymore, the only tanks that feel tanky are the ones with massive healing and shielding ( tahm and mundo ) because you have to do 10k dmg to actually kill them since they have 2 healthbars, while also threatening your hp bar, remember when maokai was at his most played ever, or gragas, when we had them with tripple dorans ring in toplane, cc'ing backlines for 15-20 seconds untill they died

[opal frost]

Season 7 was the season that actually made tanks broken because they actually did damage while being unkillable. They didnt do low damage with high uptime, otherwise, Zac wouldnt be a Ban/Pick during that season.

Also, youre again explaining the problem with Pro play, not regular ranked/draft. When tanks can CC backlines for that long and not die, it creates a problem for pro play. However, when you create that same scenario in solo Q, obviously it wont be much as a problem until you hit higher ranks since most likely your team isnt coordinated enough for the tank to be a problem.

[limber veldt]

maybe i have that issue because i play in the higher ranks, in low elo most problems wont be problems in general, most things are trivial in those elos. In season 7 tanks did NOT do even similar amounts of dmg compared to now, they would slowly widdle players down, but most champions would have healing ( either through runes or itemization ) and in return they would quite easilly outheal said tanks

[opaque grove]

@limber veldt Is right, if memory serves, season 7 is when we had 45% bonus armor pen LDR with Giant Slayer. Tanks were being played specifically because they could build almost pure health and still CC people and hence enable their ADC to pump out damage without getting exploded themselves. Armor was literally trash in that meta because of LDR (and it was worth building eventually just to punish the health stacking with Giant Slayer). Divers and Juggernauts were weak because ADC dps was still nuts and defensive itemization couldn't keep up (this was a problem that started in season 6 with the ADC+ADC item rework that season). Issue with tanks isn't even how much damage they do, but the fact that most of it frontloadable (burst) and hence layering that with someone elses damage becomes extremely oppressive. (Their base damage is quite good, but most tanks can't scale their damage much if at all, hence they feel like CC bots past 25 minutes, and because of how frontloadable that damage is, it can't be buffed or becomes broken). Solution is to move damage onto abilities that don't frontload it, and allows those abilities to scale their damage with defenses a bit.

[limber veldt]

that would make their early game even worse though, and i dont think a lot of tanks would survive that, most already got pushed to building either damage, or they went towards the support / jungle role ( think maokai, gragas and naut, which used to be the big 3 for toplane ), tanks always did %hp dmg, so they can do dmg to other tanks and bruiser ( that mostly hp stack ) and their low flat dmg makes them not do much dmg to adcs mages and assassins, and in turn assassins and mages neveer had enough pen to outright kill the tanks, but with the addition of a lot of flat pen over the years, increases in %magic pen it gets harder in the late game to be tanky and tanks do too much flat dmg to not nuke squishy targets

[opaque grove]

Moving towards more % damage is a good idea too (I remember when Amumu W actually hurt and wasn't hilariously low on dmg and it was because the % was much higher than now). I'm not suggesting them getting less damage (if anything, they can allowed to have more if it's not frontloadable and they need time to apply it).

[limber veldt]

i think itsvery hard to not make tanks into burst based characters, drain tanks tend to build offensive items and then turn into bruisers ( or juggernauts ), rather then tanks, i think frontloaded dmg is fine, as long as its not flat dmg, flat dmg is most of the time either useless on tanks or overboard, its hard to balance ( think heartsteel, its never been a balanced item )

[opaque grove]

drain tanks are drain tanks because they have ways to heal over time while dealing modest, steady damage

I don't think most tanks should have healing like that

if anything I am suggesting making tanks a bit more like juggernauts in terms of how that class does steady damage over time (but less than them, because juggernauts are actually pretty strong, especially if they have teammates with the right kinds of CC/utility to enable them more.

[limber veldt]

the big thing about juggernauts is that they tend to have less cc / engage tools, think darius, mundo etc, they provide dmg pressure, not cc pressure, build 1 or 2 offensive items and then opt for defensive items with high build in healing / shields. tanks tend to have reliable ranged cc, maokai W and R. ornn R etc, giving tanks similar sustain while also being cc bots is going to make them very strong imo

[opaque grove]

Yes, which why they are allowed to have incredibly strong steroids (usually for defense, offense in Darius' case)

level 18 Darius literally gets over 7000g worth in free bonus AD from Noxian Might.

[limber veldt]

mundo sitting at 700 ad

[opaque grove]

yea he can get there from health stacking and E

Sion having his W have like 13% max hp in shield value.

Like tanks don't have those tools and shouldn't for the obvious reason that they actually have good CC.

[limber veldt]

but i think keeping a clear difference between tanks and juggernauts is healthy for the game, making armor and mr have value as a stat, and letting champ identities dictate their role, don't give champions an identity by the items they build, let items just be stat sticks, the effects are too strong in their current state

[opaque grove]

I mean the items you build are a function of what you scale with. Typically at least 3/4 of an item's gold value is represented by it's stats and this why some items aren't built on champions that would ostensibly love the item's passive/active effects.

[limber veldt]

items like despair, heartsteel, stridebreaker, sunderer, they give champions tools that they were not designed to have, it being healing, stick potential, or burst, imo thats not a good thing, the champs that are strongest are the champs that abuse the items, not the champion itself, look at riven right now for example, she is only broken because she synergizes as one of the best with the best items in the game right now, rather then riven herself being broken, the items have too much impact, similar to tanks like mundo and skarner that love hp and build some of the best items, and perform so well because of said items.

[opaque grove]

I don't think Riven's particularly strong right now tbh

Like she was 100% worse in AH meta a few years back

I'm not even that good on her and I was stomping people with her then

[limber veldt]

52% wr on a champ like riven is crazy, its one of these champs that is only balanced if she sits at 48%~ similar to stuff like zed, because its a champ mostly designed for the onetricks and mains that refine their skills on them, august did a segment on it "recently" on his stream, some champs ( especially the high skill ceiling ones ) shouldnt be picked up by the general public and instandly perform, which is the state where riven is in

[opaque grove]

What item is she breaking currently?

Eclipse?

[limber veldt]

its the combination of, sunderer, cleaver, eclipse, deathdance, maw, which are all insanely good ( i'd even dare say broken ) items, she abuses them as one of the best out there

[opaque grove]

sunderer hasn't been in the game for years, you mean sundered sky?

[limber veldt]

yeah, ngl, i thought the item was called sunderers sky xD

but ur right lmao

[opaque grove]

fair, imo Eclipse has too much AD for it's cost, could more of something else if needed to compensate it, but 70 AD in 1 item is nuts for champs that have generous AD ratios (Riven is one of them)

Cleaver is over-statted for what it costs (probably drop AH to 15 there, maybe 35 AD, 350 hp if it's still too much stats).

DD and Maw are fine and have always been high-synergy items for Riven.

[limber veldt]

dd makes it so that riven can never be bursted by assassins, and maw makes he basically immortal vs burst mages while also providing her the healing she is not supposed to have. its rather the combination of it all where she has shields, A LOT of healing, lots of anti burst, very high ad and burst, all while having resistances and a significant hp pool

[opaque grove]

Also, sometimes a champion performs well because most of the other popular champions in that position have an unfavorable matchup into that champ.

[opaque grove]

Riven's always gotten a ton of value out of both of those items for their entire history of existing. That's nothing new.

Riven is a fighter, she shouldn't be that burstable by an assassin or even burst mage for that matter.

[limber veldt]

her unfavorable matchups are mostly being played into her right now though, except she just wins them now ( darius garen renekton, ambessa are all her unfavorable matchups, however they are equal or not too bad right now ), also coming with the point that 6 item riven % wise "almost" always wins the game even compared to actual lategame demons like asol, kogmaw, smogler, karthus etc.

[limber veldt]

these items were never top of the line, they were decent, never the best, now they are just the best items to build on anyone that can build them

[opaque grove]

Renekton's doing very well against her: 44.96% for Riven there.

[opaque grove]

They are the only resist+AD items left unless you count GA (built mostly for it's passive), and Mercurial Scimitar (lifesteal item, mostly built for active).

[limber veldt]

look at last patch, new patch just dropped, she had a 51% wr into renekton

51% into garen, 55% into darius, 52% into aatrox, 51% into renekton, 55% into ambessa, 55% into sett, only lane she lost was malphite with 48%

and her easy matchups like yone, kasante, and jax are allabove 55% wr, thats insane

[opaque grove]

Yea, didn't riot buff Riven pretty recently?

I know her ult used to only give 20% AD, not 25%.

[limber veldt]

yeah, they gave her bonus dmg on Q iirc

[opaque grove]

This may be a simple case of riot overbuffed her (because she was languishing until fairly recently).

[limber veldt]

right before the buff she became strong, then they buffed her and she isturning into a demon

AD ratio changed to 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85% bonus AD from 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 / 70% AD.
Base damage increased to 45 / 75 / 105 / 135 / 165 from 15 / 35 / 55 / 75 / 90. its supposed to be a lategame nerf and early buff, since her late was so broken

[opaque grove]

Like I remember AloisNL saying Riven was just not good anymore and citing that so many other top laners now have true dmg or % max and other stuff that make them just stronger than her.

Oh yea, that's a huge buff to her early+mid game

I'm not even sure if that's much of a late game nerf considering her build

[limber veldt]

yeah, but now she just statsticks like a garen over all the 200 years champs, and its horrible

[opaque grove]

yea, this has nothing to do with item balance and everything to do with riot giving Riven too much of a buff.

[limber veldt]

15% ad is like 60~ dmg on her Q late, so yeah its like a 30 dmg nerf

[opaque grove]

% AD went up, but it's bonus now

so you need enough bonus AD to overcome the gap. which is -75 base damage+70% of base AD.

[limber veldt]

it has to do with item balance, her winrate didnt spike after this "buff", it stayed consistent untill they changed the items this season

the buff was in season 14, not this season, she was stable untill they adressed items for the new season and bruiser items became the best items in the game

[opaque grove]

Buffs shipped in patch 14.20 (queue lots of people returning to this champ unaware of the current best tech)

I'm not surprised her WR didn't move for a bit

To illustrate how big this buff is:
level 9 Riven, Q at rank 5, 84.22 base AD

[limber veldt]

in the highest elos it didnt change at all, the onetricks noticed close to 0 difference as it just was a onetrick champ, nothing changed untill the system changes and miraculously the second the system changes for the new season came rivens winrate omega spiked

[opaque grove]

damage per cast before: 90+(84.22x0.7)+70% bonus AD, now 165+85% bonus AD

so 148.954+70% bonus ad to 165+85% bonus ad....

I bet the OTPs actually started doing better gradually, item changes may have helped her, but DD and Maw have basically not been touched much

DD's last change was v14.19 before the Riven buffs

[limber veldt]

i think its disingenuous to say that the system changes had nothing to do with it, when in 2 months post her buff her winrate didnt move an inch, but now that her build doesnt opt for a tiamat anymore and she builds the best bruiser items in the game her winrate spiked like crazy

[opaque grove]

Same with Maw.

[opaque grove]

Not at all, people suck at innovating

I've watch people build champs wrong for a year+ or never even learn that a certain item was gigabusted before

new season encouraged people to experiment and some found that tech that was good and spread the word.

happened many times before.

[limber veldt]

well, we can agree to disagree then, i think the data shows that bruiser items are the issue here as champs like xin, vi and j4 all saw insane spikes in winrate and the second they started building the exact same items as riven does ( sunderer cleaver ) instead of their usual items

[opaque grove]

Cleaver is overtuned, no argument there

item has like 120% gold value in stats even ignoring the passive or some stupidly OP thing like that

also one of the few 20+ AH AD bruiser items

[limber veldt]

i think sundered sky is unhealthy for the game, the same as eclipse in its current state ( as was divine sunderer when i abused it on poppy )

[opaque grove]

Sundered isn't that strong tbh

Eclipse is too cheap for how much AD it gives imo, item is very heavy on primary stat (AD) as a % of total gold value, so it's an insane spike on hard AD scaling champs (all the bursty AD divers)

[limber veldt]

unhealthy =/= strong, its the combination of items that makes it strong, not the actual items itself, sure cleaver and gage are broken by itself, they have always been since their release, but they don't really provide anything that is truly an issue, outside of their raw stats, giving champs healing and shielding is always problematic as champs are not balanced around getting healing and shielding from their items, some champs deliberately didnt get said stats because it makes them an issue ( like how tank diana is an issue now because she shouldnt get healing thats why her shield cd is so low, but she does through items now )

[opaque grove]

Diana was balanced for a world where we basically didn't have proper AP bruiser items, and now we do, so it's not surprising she's benefitted from it.

[limber veldt]

she didnt build any new items, i've been playing bruiser diana for 2 years now, but it was never as good, because she lacked 1 thing, and that was healing, she was tanky but at least she would be wittled down eventually, with the addition of unending despair that issue has been solved, and now everybody is playing it ( imo wrong they build too many dmg items ) and its performing VERY well, even though its nerfed this season with the abyssal mask changes

[opaque grove]

yea. Why riot ever let mask have 30% reduced enemy MR absolutely baffles me...

[limber veldt]

and it gave 100 mr for 2650 gold, truly the only good mr item you would need

[opaque grove]

Unending Despair became completely not OK even since they let the passive heal off of total damage instead of being based on how much the instance did.

[limber veldt]

despair is a cool item,design wise its super interesting, however, its unhealthy for the game

[opaque grove]

speaking of Diana, she's an example of people building wrong for years. before the rework no one was building her the way I was and I would stomp so many games with it

(Nashor's Tooth was OP af on old Diana, and people were hard sleeping on it for years.)

[limber veldt]

yeah, new diana cannot build like old diana, old diana just does more dmg then new diana, its stupid but its how it is, your combos of Q W R dont do 4k dmg anymore, your kit is ult loaded now, you can't stay in to get yourult off most of the time on ap diana or you insta die after zhonya, combine that with nashors being the worst item in the game right now

and its like why even get nashors, its a pve item, it does nothing against players, unless you are gwen that buildsthe only attackspeed item she can build

[opaque grove]

eh I still think it's good on her

she shouldn't be played like an assassin imo, she is a diver.

I actually tended to do a lot of splitpushing on old Diana (and current one too)

Old Ludens+zerks+nashors+deathcap 3rd was my build, actually ran lethal tempo too

Legit midgame you outduel almost anyone with that

[limber veldt]

on old diana i used to go sorc boots into deathcap with tripple dorans ring with aftershock 🫡

[opaque grove]

Like I'd have 2.0 AS at 2 items with LT stacked.

[limber veldt]

ap is all you needed, as much as possible, now you need utility, and with your high attackspeed the attackspeed is basically worthless if you have nashors, the passive onhit doesnt exist, the ratios are mediocre at best

[opaque grove]

you also delete towers with that build.

[limber veldt]

3 autos per tower :^)

[opaque grove]

They actually nerfed her passive AP ratio and base dmg compared to old Diana, that's the crazy part

used to do like 280+80% AP, now like 250+50% AP

[limber veldt]

old passive was great, i still have the habit of 3autos, use skill 3 autos use skill

🙃 gimme back my mana regen

[opaque grove]

LT btw is actually really good on her

[limber veldt]

i dont see it

[opaque grove]

with that+your passive (and perhaps Nashor's) you're dueling is actually really strong.

[limber veldt]

i tried it on an alt in emerald, went 17/0. never felt so useless

lt + nashors that is, i tend to build usefull items on her when ap either stormsurge (utility ) or lichbane ( dmg ) or liandries for tank

nashors just does neither, unless you hit mobs, you take dragons and whatnot extremely fast

[opaque grove]

it's very useful in 1v1s

less so for the passive and moreso for the AS while still getting AP and AH.

[limber veldt]

👀 i have more dmg otuput with the in out of liandries and dmg amp or lichbanes burst

[opaque grove]

maybe if you're target is an ADC or mage w/ 0 health items

[limber veldt]

attackspeed is not a stat on diana imo, having 1.4 is more then enough

[opaque grove]

I'm over here outdueling master yi's at 20 mins into the game.

[limber veldt]

i hope so 💀 you are 3 items at 20 minutes

[opaque grove]

You'd never kill a competent yi w/ a burst build

he either Ws or Q dodges that and you don't hit all of it, and even if you did. W mitigation would keep it from killing and then he shreds you.

[limber veldt]

nope you dont, thats why i dont build it, since you dont have an ult button vs him, its a waste to go anything resembling dmg items

[opaque grove]

I legit got ganked by him in river and won the fight.

[limber veldt]

i just kill him with liandries despair and abyssal, does more then enough dmg

you can 100-0 people and you are tanky enough to survive fights, its just worth it

cheap items, you farm jgl faster, you beat him early, you dont have to rely on opponents standing still and fighting you ( otherwise theattackspeed is useless )

[opaque grove]

enough AH+QE chaing=you're plenty sticky, and melee champs largely don't get a choice.

I remember having Maokai try to duel me when I was sidelane (he even had 150 MR and like 3k hp) and I actually destroyed him inspite of that (I was only around 2 items then too)

(he also couldn't run away despite his best efforts)

[limber veldt]

maokai should always just beat you , you dont get E resets against him

[opaque grove]

if he Ws to me, I just trade autos till Q off CD

and my Q CD is shorter than his W as well.

[limber veldt]

and his Q stops your E and makes it not reset

[opaque grove]

he never did that too me, the timing is pretty narrow to that

[limber veldt]

he also just beats you if he walks towards a bush

[opaque grove]

he did try that and I didn't care because W

[limber veldt]

get this maokai a wheelchair

[opaque grove]

he'd use Q after W in

to deny me attacking time (once he realized I hurt)

[limber veldt]

istg, people in the last 5years have gotten so much worse at league, nobody places ctrl wards on thresh lantern anymore, no ctrl wards against twitch or eve, people just use their skills off cooldown like madmen

💀 remember when champs used mana and had actual mana issues

[opaque grove]

I remember old Chalice of Harmony...XD

I was right that that item was busted and proved it to my playgroup at the time.

[limber veldt]

😅 best times man, item was wild

[opaque grove]

OG version was actually so broken

[limber veldt]

when items were broken, but not game breaking😂 peak lol

[opaque grove]

7.5 mana/5, 25 MR and the passive....
1% increased mana regeneration per 1% missing mana.....

that worked on base mana regen too....

[limber veldt]

like dfg, it got removed because it was broken and the champs that build dfg went up in winrate after its removal thats peak league

[opaque grove]

legit learned to abuse that by keeping my mana at around half and perma-pressuring my lane opponent, basically did Faker's smothering technique long before I ever knew it by that name.

[limber veldt]

wasnt it likesomething that gave hp regen when you bought mana regen as well or something like that i remember it was good on soraka

[opaque grove]

that was a much newer item (Athene's after it was reworked into a support item)

Chalice of Harmony used to not have an upgrade path back in the day.

[limber veldt]

Unique – Harmony: Gain 25% base health regeneration for every additional 25% base mana regeneration.
ah yeah that waas the new one

[opaque grove]

then they noticed midlane mages buying it a lot and decide to give it an upgrade path (how we got 1st version of Athene's Unholy Grail)

[limber veldt]

bring back old items

[opaque grove]

Item I miss the most from the old days is probably Frozen Mallet.

[limber veldt]

ohkay hearme out, hot take, twin shadows and glp was a cool combo with glacial and had to stay inthe game

[limber veldt]

mallet was super cool

[opaque grove]

Most recent item to be removed that I miss is Silvermere Dawn, was actually so nice to have a good QSS option for bruisers.

[limber veldt]

im not mad at them removing that

[opaque grove]

eh it wasn't broken or anything, if anything they removed it because almost no one built it, and that's because people are bad at recognizing good items.

[limber veldt]

it was bad, mercurial was better even on bruisers

[opaque grove]

Naw, not even close

[limber veldt]

it didnt give the movespeed, only tenacity and slow resist

[opaque grove]

300 hp and 40 MR, worth infinitely more than the lifesteal on Mercurial.

[limber veldt]

movespeed is worst more then the hp

[opaque grove]

the MS on the active was pitiful, only lasted 1 sec.

SD gave you a lot of effective magic health (and even some effective phys health) while still giving you AD and a useful active.

[limber veldt]

both gave 40 mr, it was litt 300 hp for 200 movespeed and 10% lifesteal, which is good on bruisers, both of the stats

[opaque grove]

iirc, mercurial had crit back then

we got current no crit version after SD left if memory serves

and the active is not giving you 200 MS (50% is affected by soft caps)

and again, 1 sec of MS on 90 sec CD...

[limber veldt]

65 ad, 35 mr, 10%lifesteel, 1.5 sec movespeed at first, then it turned to 30 ad 30 mr 20% crit and 1% speed

[opaque grove]

old LS version was nice for attacking fighters (like Yasuo)

current one is also good on Yas as well for instance.

[limber veldt]

10% ish reduction

[opaque grove]

more than that, 2nd softcap is like 35% or something.

[limber veldt]

bfore 490 its 20%

[opaque grove]

Nope
When the raw movement speed is greater than 415, there are two soft caps applied:

The raw speed between 415 and 490 gets multiplied by 80%.
The raw speed over 490 gets multiplied by 50%.

[limber veldt]

you dont hit the second cap most likely

[opaque grove]

so 20% less till 490, then 50% less beyond.

400ish MS isn't unrealistic on melees (380ish maybe more common)

[limber veldt]

yeah, 415 to 490, so most of the bonus speed doesnt interact with the cap

[opaque grove]

it interacts with the 1st cap, not the 2nd.

also, that's raw speed, so 400+200 is 600, so 110 of that is x0.5 and 90 is x0.8

[limber veldt]

380 aws already high at the time

[opaque grove]

naw, some fighters base was 355, most are 340+

+45 for boots 2, and that's 385 or more.

[limber veldt]

dont forget that they added a ton of movespeed to the game in thelast years, before 380 was like good, 330 340 was the norm

[opaque grove]

there is less MS now that a few seasons ago,

old boot meta was the only time base MS was changed (in conjuction with boot MS nerf)

[limber veldt]

less then last season, not less then lets say season 6-9

[opaque grove]

fighters have always been able to 400+ with 1-2 items with some MS effects on them.

and have basically always had at least 370 with 0 MS items besides tier 2 boots.

biggest change to MS has been how many sources of % MS, especially temp effects with bigger values that have existed.

and MS as a stat is grossly overvalued anyways.

[limber veldt]

exactly so 370 movespeed, steroids are not consistent

[opaque grove]

370 is lower than most were able to get.

[limber veldt]

under*, its a broken stat, needs fixing

[opaque grove]

385 is a 340 base fighter w/ T2 boots. Some Fighters have 355 and thus 400 with just T2 boots.

[limber veldt]

some also have 335 movespeed

[opaque grove]

very few

Usually those are the ones with repeatable mobility and hence don't need the MS that much.

[limber veldt]

in general you never needed a qss on bruisers / fighters anyway, since you always had sterark in your core build and if needed mercs, tenacity in runes before as well, elixir, you never really cared about cc's

[opaque grove]

like only ones with 335 that aren't tanks and are immobile melees are Morde and WW

[limber veldt]

irelia

[opaque grove]

you use QSS for the active so you can actually get out from under a CC train and flash (It was nice to be able to do this on Renekton and flash in for stun combo)

[opaque grove]

mobile af champ (I didn't count champs with repeat dashes or ranged forms)

[limber veldt]

thats some pretty heafty limits, no tanks, no dashes, no ranged, that removes like 90% of the champs kekw

[opaque grove]

no repeatable dashes

so xin would be considered, but not Yasuo or Irelia or Ambessa for example.

[limber veldt]

almost every top has low cd on dashes

[opaque grove]

those that have them, yes usually CD isn't super long. Generally if a melee has a dash on a basic ability it's because they're meant to dive in.

not the same thing as the 3 examples I gave above who wouldn't make the cut.

[limber veldt]

tenacity is key, cc's dont matter much if you reduce thetime by 50-60-70%

[opaque grove]

tenacity stacks multiplicatively

so even cresting 50% reduced duration is really hard, also, CC layering is a thing.

Tenacity also doesn't affect several things that QSS does, like Suppressions.

[limber veldt]

you about hit 45-50% with boots, sterark and elixir, at the time you also had the runes for even more tenacity, itsnot as hard asyou think

[opaque grove]

In fact, if you got Merc, steraks, and wits, CC would still last 51.2% of their original duration (those that tenacity affects)

[limber veldt]

only supression and drowsy ( the slowbefore sleep)

[opaque grove]

yea, there was a time when we had some actually good access to tenacity (bigger % effects)

[limber veldt]

and knockups at least

[limber veldt]

you can still get 95%, its not too bad assumingyour champ can use wits end

which is what 60%ish~

[opaque grove]

No actually, airborne's are not affected.

[opaque grove]

doesn't stack additively

[limber veldt]

i know thats what i said

[opaque grove]

besides the items, what else is there, Legend: Tenacity is gone.

[limber veldt]

i know which is why i said 60% ish

[opaque grove]

but that's true for both QSS and tenacity.

[limber veldt]

its still there right, tenacity and slowresist rune

[opaque grove]

I forget what the % on that is

[limber veldt]

gives like 10%? or smth

its garbage, but it exists xD the health is imo more valuable

[opaque grove]

10%, not much, can get to below 50% duration with that 46.08% duration w/ that

so 53.92% less duration with absolutely every source of tenacity in runes+item pool stacked

[limber veldt]

youcan total hit 105% tenacity from items and runes, somemore with qss, 155%, and milio R to 205 while playing garen to 265 tenacity

which is as close to 100% tenacity as you can get ig, which turns every hard cc except for knockups and supressions into 0.3 sec cc's

[opaque grove]

yea there are specific situations where you can make a lot of CCs almost ineffectual

but they're not reliable, and that's what made SD so good, it was a reliable option for AD fighters against magic damage and CC.

[limber veldt]

i mean, in general a garen pressing W makes cc's close to uselesson him

[limber veldt]

thing is, you get at the time the tenacity rune, which was iirc 20%, mercs for 30, gage for 20, at that point that qss does almost nothing by just having the best items on your champ that you were gonna build anyway

so like its cooltaht the item exists, but nobody will ever buy it, because its a lost slot

[opaque grove]

ok, math is weirder than I thought: https://wiki.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/Tenacity

[limber veldt]

not gold effecient at all, and the effect basically doesnt matter

[opaque grove]

item is gold efficient enough, it was only 3000g (on stats alone at the time it was over 100% cost efficient).

[limber veldt]

afaik is jsut for 2 items of 20% tenacity you do like 0.8x0.8 and call it a day

i dont see how it would match up to just building a gage or a cleaver

Silvermere Dawn's base stats are 97% gold efficient. how can it match up against 120 or 130% gold effecient bruiser items when its active barely does anything in the first place, especially compared to the loaded passives bruiser items have

[fast atlas]

Since I have seen it resurfacing with the new human Morde skin:

Human Morde concept art for LoR is one of the worst design I have ever seen. Just an uninspired rough old white dude with a scar, with an allegedly ancient armor that looks/is more modern that post-resurrection Morde's one made centuries/a millenia later.
I can't understand how someone thought it was a good idea, or like it. Mongolian Morde clears, althought the skin sucks ass.

[dawn plume]

Riven's always been a snowball champ, her late game being that strong was a problem. She might be a tad overtuned atm but she's still a champ that takes hands and her power being shifted to the early game makes a lot more sense

Honestly it's just another case of bruiser items being overtuned

[limber veldt]

👌 exactly

"bruiser items op, riven abuses them better then anyone, riven op" is the short version of how the convo started

[dawn plume]

Imo id let it sit like that for a bit because honestly its about time people get rewarded for learning a difficult champ instead of drool daddy Garen. Definitely would need tuning at some point though

[dawn plume]

Fair enough

Wukong and Riven definitely abuse the hell out of those items

ESPECIALLY Wukong though, Triforce is disgusting

[limber veldt]

idm riven being good at all, should be rewarding, especially with the meta's we've had in toplane the last 3 years

but bruiser items are at that point where most ad junglers are getting a bit overtuned as well to point of become drooler champs

[dawn plume]

Absolutely. I've never really enjoyed the whole "spend 50 hours on a champ just for a first time Trundle to win" dynamic. And I don't understand how anyone can agree with that sentiment tbh

Easy champs shouldn't be "bad" but some of them are just flat out silly

[limber veldt]

akali, camille fiora, ryze, cassio, irelia, riven, jatce etc. should be rewarding to learn, not just feel worse then the point and clickers we have today

[dawn plume]

Garen just gets a shit load of frontloaded stats and a silence + his main damage source is literally just an aura and a true damage click for doing nothing

[limber veldt]

remember when garen build bc into full tank and was for silver and below, that was peak league

[dawn plume]

To achieve what a first time Garen is capable of on someone like Qiyana takes days worth of game time

That's just not okay imo

[limber veldt]

based take

[dawn plume]

Making "complex champions" weaker to balance out their complexity has always been ass backwards because complexity means difficulty which means the reward should be worth the time

[limber veldt]

but riot rather be nerfing hextech chests then stat sticks

[dawn plume]

People get upset when champs like that are strong knowing full well if they played that champion they'd turbo int and FF

[limber veldt]

like i can get omega fed and stomp a mordekaiser on irelia and that man will just get 2 items press R on me and ill be dead how is that fair and fun, i learned my champ, he just clicked 3 buttons

[dawn plume]

I got turbo fed on Ekko last night and almost died to a 0/2 Morde after playing it near perfectly all because he hit one of his 5 Qs he missed

Because he just tanked that shit

Took like 3 rotations to kill him

He landed one Q and I almost watched my health bar disappear

Actually made my jaw physically drop IRL

[limber veldt]

😂 the other day i was in a game, i play diana, man was 2 items down 3 levels down, pressed R on me missed all 3 q's missed E and killed me rmb and passive, what is my play there, i can't be more fed, i can't run from rylais ghost mord, he flash R'ed me on the objective so we lose that as well, can't buy a qss

[limber veldt]

-1200 hp 1 q

[dawn plume]

Like what the fuck is that bro 0/2 and he almost outbursts me

[limber veldt]

and im like i have 200 mr, i have more ap as him, more hp, more mr, he has rmb and w

[dawn plume]

I was like 6/1 i think

And i only had like 20 less cs than him

So realistically it was still like a 4 and a half kill gap

[limber veldt]

yeah i dunno how people can say thats fair, his winrate is ass, i get it, he is not broken, but he feels unfair

[dawn plume]

A lot of statcheck champs feel unfair and some are straight up unfair to play against as a higher skill champion

Garen has no reason to have so many stats just handed to him on top of a true damage ultimate and a damage aura

[limber veldt]

it just says similar to garen this 1 person idecide to click on will die, and there is nothing they can do about it because i pointed my mouse curser on them

but like renekton i have no issues with, also a big stat stick, but i feel like i can outplay him, i dont have that with the point and clickers

[dawn plume]

You have to play your cards perfectly and MAYBE you have a chance to kill the 0/1 6cs/m Garen on akali

Just MAYBE

There's still a chance he just wins purely because he threw a rolling pin at his keyboard

[limber veldt]

with his full dmg build

theitem that makes garen tanky: attackspeed boots

[dawn plume]

Don't forget going like Mach 5 (why does he need this? Fuck if I know)

If the 60% tenacity, free armor and MR, and the silence and true damage wasn't enough he also just outruns 90% of the roster

[limber veldt]

😂 ngl, hot take, revert his R to magic dmg, or the attackspeed change on E

and champ is fine, at least i can build against him, 1500 true dmg is not smth i can build against, 1500magic dmg i can work with

[dawn plume]

Don't forget the RESETTING Darius R (which also does true damage)

Ngl its always the fucking juggernauts bro the true culprits

Even mages have some skill expression

[limber veldt]

at least he has to stack it up, get his reset, hit abilities that are at least semi hard to hit in the higher elos

[dawn plume]

And skirmishers have skill expression too

[limber veldt]

im not too mad at darius

[dawn plume]

But juggernauts just get overtuned stats and there's nothing you can do about it

[limber veldt]

😅 juggernauts are the only viable frontliners right now though, tanksinsta die

[dawn plume]

Its such a flawed class because they're a class designed to beat the shit out of everyone that gets in melee range but it's like, what do you do as a melee champion? You just eat shit

[limber veldt]

juggernauts lack reliable engage / cc, you have your botlane sort it out for you

[dawn plume]

Thats fair

[limber veldt]

im part of the problem withtank diana tho, im basically a juggernaut

[dawn plume]

Im still not a big fan of the whole "get a shit ton of gold worth of stats for hitting someone a few times" but id rather deal with that than whatever Garen is

[limber veldt]

imo its cool that mundo has 700 ad, but im not scared of mundo, im more scared about funny i Q you so you die champs

same iwth like tahm or darius or whatnot, if they fall behind they are useless, if they are fed you canat least outplay them, garen its just every 5 min i have flash and you will die no matter what

[dawn plume]

I have flash and you cannot flash*

[limber veldt]

by the timme you can flash urdead

[dawn plume]

Silence on Q is a sick joke from riot

"I have reached you with my flash and 600 move speed, now you will do nothing because you can do nothing."