Most Controversial Hot Takes

[formal elm]

maxing akali W now gives bonus hp for every second you’re in stealth and converts to shield when out of it in combat

[civic kettle]

if youre in stealth for the maximum duration youre awarded 100 permanant hp

[echo bolt]

I deserve challenger, but challenger doesn't deserve me

[gentle pasture]

Giga nerf ghost on ranged champs.

And nerf Ie. A 50% crit damage buff is a lot m8.
And revert the kraken slayer buffs.

[hoary relic]

graves needs his cigar back

[glacial pivot]

Why is it still 15 seconds?

[opal frost]

Not a hot take when its the truth.

Shitty ass meta that allows Ranged to use Ghost when that was never seen in 11 years of League. Heal/Cleanse should be perma meta for ADCs

[gentle pasture]

15s

[cobalt turret]

Kraken slayer changes need to be reverted. They made it absolute ass on adcs but buffed it for solo laners???

Ghost will only fall out of meta when heal actual ly becomes useful again

Nobody runs heal unless they are low elo, or in a very diffiicult lane.

[bold shell]

terrible take, ghost has been reworked to make it good and the game is completely different than it was in the past

there is infinitely more mobility in the game and adcs need it to keep up

its been used for 2+ years now for a reason, the game has shifted

[opal frost]

The only thing I agree with what you said is "The game is completely different than it was in the past"

Saying there are infinitely more mobility in the game is total bullshit btw. Heal/Cleanse was meta forever even when champs had insane mobility, it was patch 12.10 that made heal essentially "useless". Ghost meta never rose because of high mobility in the game, it was the only summoner spell that was worthy of using besides Cleanse/Exhaust.

It was never fun to play with in the beginning, most ADCs are just solely relying on Ghost to carry them in team fights.

It is not what lol

The introduction of Ghost meta for ADC was in 2021, there were only 6 mobility champs that were added (7 if you add Nilah)

So what was the issue before? Patch 12.10 of course ruining it all

Mobility was still the same before Ghost meta rose besides 7 champions

[bold shell]

you think a 10 hp nerf was enough to kill heal?

[opal frost]

?

[bold shell]

and ghost is more prominent because more people take it realizing its actually good

[opal frost]

It was more than 10, per level add by 1

[opal frost]

Wow I couldnt see that! Its like its the only viable summoner spell besides Cleanse/Exhaust!

[bold shell]

why do you think its better to run now

when other adcs didnt realize to take it in the past?

[opal frost]

Because Heal is nerfed? Lol

Like what, obviously? And even then, ghost was seen in the past on ADCs such as Lucian

[bold shell]

it got nerfed from 90-345 to 80-318, it quite literally lost less than an autos worth of hp at all stages of the game

like what r u even smoking thinking its bc heal got nerfed for caster minion damage

@opal frost hello?

like even if heal wasnt nerfed, if you were ever going to use heal aggressively ghost is just infintely better, lasts longer, has actual worth late game, and makes literally everything easier for an adc to survive / play the game

and ghost has been viable since they made it so that it resets in season 10, which was insanely broken

like you could nerf ghost back to 20-40% 10s and rebuff heal from 80-318 to 90-345 and everyone would still go ghost because ghost is just better

[gentle pasture]

Nerf ghost for ranged. It's not just adcs. It's mages.
Ghost syndra is a Monster I wish not to see again

[gentle pasture]

Ghost or cleanse.

[opal frost]

It does though?

You are able to heal one extra auto from the enemy which matters a lot in bot lane.

And you just answered why Ghost meta is so bad for ADC's mechanical skill, makes it "easier" for an adc to survive/play the game. Yeah, talk about crutch lmfao.

[gentle pasture]

Ghost on adc is bad for the game , it gives them the total ability to perma kite most melee champs for 15s.
Unless it's a darius with ghost and Stridebraker. Most Juggernauts and tanks ain't getting close to you if your decent.

[bold shell]

there is literally no point in picking heal to play for early game when ghost is just infinitely more useful throughout the game, and its literally a necessity for adc to play the game

an auto doesnt mean anything regardless of the nerf

[gentle pasture]

With modern adc damage.
200-300 is less then a 3 item adc Auto attack.

Early game exhaust or ignite is better.
Enemy can't attack if they are dead.

Mid game + ghost is better.

Late game heal and ignite lose value.
Ghost does not.

[opal frost]

Thats the issue, main reason WHY im arguing the first place, Ghost SHOULDNT be a necessity for ADCs to play the game. Its a terrible meta that crutches ADC to rely on Ghost in order to make plays in the later games.

Just look at old League gameplay with the same annoying Mobility that ADC's struggled to deal with, so all of a sudden new meta needs Ghost to help ADCs to play? Like what?

[gentle pasture]

Tbh, mobility needs to be toned down a bit generally.
Even the newest adcs all have dashes.

Zeri. Nilah. Smoulder.

[opal frost]

They are fine besides Zeri (Im not sure about Smoulder), because the older champions had the same mobility ability

Lucian/Vayne/Cait

[gentle pasture]

And vayne should be deleted

Caitlin isn't on the same lv as the others.
1 dash back. It has a slow
But vayne is yeeting around at the speed of sound every 2s.

[fallen dock]

Nilah having dashes makes sense imo, she's more of a skirmisher than a traditional ADC, but Vayne, Lucian, and Smolder having some insane mobility is pretty BS at times

I understand kinda why they have it, since they need to get pretty close to people to actually do anything, but it's still pretty annoying having a supposedly immobile squishy class outmaneuver people like that

[opal frost]

Worst when they have Ghost

Again, going back to why its such a bad meta, but oh well. League does its thing :D

[cobalt turret]

Adc players finally have counterplay?

Ghost is a scaling rune, they suffer with a worse early game because heal is a laning spell. People just whine and complain when they get kited by a good player.

[cobalt turret]

Nilah NEEDS her dashes or else she will the worst champ in the game btw.

If you had played adc at all you would know why adcs NEED movement in the current game.

[cobalt turret]

Also if you are losing to a syndra with ghost, you played lane horribly

Heal in this meta just is useless. It won't help an adc survive the burst of an assassin, and ghost on average lets u dodge more damage than heal would have healed you. If ghost gets nerfed most of the adcs will plummet in winrate

[opal frost]

Explain, Im curious to see your explaination

(If it involves with anything that has to with Champions having a lot more mobility/game has more mobility, I am not responding since that is a joke of a reason why ADCs need movement)

[cobalt turret]

Adcs are literally unable to kite any modern champ nowadays? There is WAY too much mobility creep in the game which requires adcs to also have that mobility creep.

LIke it's such a simple explanation if you want to ego not responding you can, but everyone has acknowledged the mobility creep in the game.

It's getting to a point where every single mid and botlaner is going to need some sort of dash or ms boost + slow to be any amount of useful

[opal frost]

Ghost was meta for ADCs in 2021 to now, so youre saying ADCs couldnt kite WITH heal/cleanse against the champions that were made before 2021?

Mobility was just as bad before 2021, whats the difference now? LMFAO

[cobalt turret]

Because cleanse is only good versus specific things and heal isn't good anymore because there is too much damage in the game. Ghost makes it easier to dodge more damage than heal would have healed and cleanse is a situational rune...

Cleanse is like only taken when you are playing against hard cc or against yuumi/ a double combat sum botlane that is cleansable

Adcs have no o ther option than ghost because of this

Adcs carry potential has been gutted over the last decade and ghost makes it easier to carry than heal since ghost is a scaling rune

[opal frost]

Wow! I would never thought the reason why Ghost is ran is because Heal isnt good anymore lol

[cobalt turret]

Half of the assassins in the game will oneshot an adc through heal with little to no lead

[opal frost]

Mmhmm, so what is the root cause of that happening

Keep in mind, Assassins still could one shot through heal back in the days

[gentle pasture]

They have "counter" play by removing the enemy's counter play.
Ranged champs should be dead if the enemy melee champs reaches melee range for prolonged period of time.
Ghost makes that almost impossible for juggernauts and a good portion of tanks.
They can self peel without the team.

[gentle pasture]

For Nilah it makes sense.
But it's still mobility. It's needed for her.
I used to be jungle then a Adc main(s10-11). But I like playing fighters and tanks so went back to jungle and top as a side option . I like being the Frontline.

There are champs who legit can't do anything to a semi good adc with ghost without there team needing to land cc.

[gentle pasture]

Don't play mid.
But the cancer that is fighting a mid game syndra running around at 500ms with Strom surge and ghost..
And if you try and dive her she has self peel.

I've seen my enjoiment and wr when I started rushing Stridebraker on legit every fighter I could. Even if it's stats are not the best for my champ.
Haveing a mini faze rush allows me to keep up.

[gentle pasture]

That's not how it works. A team needs a bot laner .
They might feel worse, and champs might rearrange in order. But bot as a role can't change form 50% wr.
I don't use the term adc for this post, cuss bot lane mages with ghost is also a ishues .
And yes, mages bot should be a thing.
And i think it's worse on mages, they have larger range then auto attacks.
But by far the most painful adc is Ashe with ghost. Not because it's strong but because it's pain incarnate. Thank God they gave deadmans slow resist.

Il not complaining because I think it's overpowered (( on some champ it is))
But because Its unhealthy for the game.

[opaque grove]

meanwhile, durability patch happened and increased base hp of all champs, so the heal is proportionally even less. It got a 2nd indirect nerf though that.

[placid igloo]

Idk what y'all yapping about again so all I am gonna say is that heal is a broken summoner before lvl 3 and then pretty useless except for the move speed

[formal elm]

which ghost does better late game

[placid igloo]

Depends on what you need

Cos yeah it gives you more move speed but only you

[bold shell]

its still shit regardless of the nerf bc it doesnt do anything in the mid/late game in comparison to ghost

[placid igloo]

Yeah let's ignore the 300 HP heal

[bold shell]

thats like max rank

buff heal by an additional +10 even and most adcs will still take ghost 95% of the time

[placid igloo]

No that's lvl 14

[placid igloo]

No, that's just wrong, since a kalista doesn't benefit from ghost

Or a Lucian or an Ezreal or a Samira etc

[bold shell]

"most" like yea exceptions apply

not 95% of all adc games in total, ghost 95% of the time on adcs that already go it

[placid igloo]

And yet most of the adcs would also love to have a cleanse vs Varus Ashe or Kaisa Naut

[bold shell]

over heal*

[placid igloo]

That wasn't your statement cos that already entails that they'd use ghost meaning it can't be an argument as to why ghost is better than heal since you already imply they'd use it to begin with

[bold shell]

they go it bc its the best summoner spell and heal isnt even close to the strength

[cobalt turret]

You do realize without ghost it's practically impossible for an adc to stay outside of a melee champs range right?

[glacial pivot]

how about we just revert ghost to extended takedowns

15 seconds all game is diabolical

[worn musk]

Garen Takes Skill

[placid igloo]

It's not in every game

Or even a majority of games

Ppl just take it cos it makes it easier to play the game

[opaque grove]

I wasn't disagreeing with that idea, if anything I agree heal feels too weak these days. The combination of it's numbers getting nerfed and then champion base hp's getting buffed has made it contribute a lot less of a % of your effective hp.

[gentle pasture]

Phantom dance gives ms, Rfc gives ms.
You have the support to peel.
On top of some adcs if not most have some form of self defense.
Jinx traps, caitlin trap + net , Lucien dash, ashe slow and ult. Vayne Q+ R.

Its the best peel, no. But they aren't meant to be good solo.
Its a skermisher or team fight role. Some are duelist adcs like Vayne, who are ment to be Hyper mobile, same for zeri.

Stacking ghost on top of them removes the counter play form 33%+ of the the champions.

[cobalt turret]

support to peel xd it's solo q bro. rfc you lose so much dmg

[gentle pasture]

Now that I've started to face emerald. Diamond and even a few master Adcs.
The amount of self peel a Adc can have is good. Jinx traps used properly are are a godsent.

[cobalt turret]

Jinx is also jsut broken currently?

[gentle pasture]

It's a role ment for team based fighting.
If your team is only worse then the enemy 50% of the time. Not counting yourself

[cobalt turret]

You will not recieve good peel from a support below diamond and half of the diamond supports still tunnel vision and don't peel you

[gentle pasture]

Even before she was hyper op.
I've seen a jinx mid legit solo Zed's, graves and such.

[cobalt turret]

Those players just suck if they are losing to jinx mid lmao

[gentle pasture]

Yah, that jinx was actually a giga chad, the zed played decently for plat ( old plat, aka current low emerald). The jinx was just a god incarnate.

[cobalt turret]

So a good player smurfing means it needs nerfs?

[cedar cove]

wat?

[gentle pasture]

No.
Im saying that skill does matter, ghost is not a "requirement"

Imo it's actually makeing adcs worse off. Cuss if they are expected to always use it. They will be balenced around it. Meaning if you don't take it. Your at a disadvantage

That's why they removed Galeforce and Stridebraker dash, prowlers Claw grab .
Certain champs are not ment to have a dash

Same as certain champs are not ment to have +24-44% ms for 15s

a darius with old old Stridebraker with dash was a unhealthy for the game.
Same with A vayne with ghost running at mach 5.
The game does need champs to have weekneses and flaws.
Perfection =/= fun in video games.

Yes heal is underpowered.
But even if it was buffed.
Ghost or cleanse would always be a better fitting side option if Ghost doesn't get nerfed on range.

[cobalt turret]

The reason ghost is good because of the current meta. If you nerf ghost adcs become much weaker than what they already are? Heal is a useless rune because it won't save u from being oneshot this season and ghost allows you to get more hits in fights while also being safer with the ability to actrually kite champions because of the insane movement creep in the game. Every melee champ is able to easily get onto an adc?

Out of every mechanic that is unhealthy for the game adcs have the least amount of them.

[formal elm]

okay this is my most controversial take ever. Faker does NOT deserve any of the trophies he has

[opal grail]

Why?

[formal elm]

why not?

[opal grail]

I mean do you have like a genuine reason for why you think that?

[pliant barn]

Idk if u remember but this was contributing to way longer durations than we have rn

[worthy sparrow]

There's controversial hot takes and then there's just bait. This is bait.

[vague arch]

^

[austere escarp]

controversial: giving rise or likely to give rise to public disagreement.

[opal grail]

Most of the controversial takes that have been listed atleast have some sort of reasoning behind it. Like when someone makes the claim "bring back 3v3" atleast there's is a reasoning like despite the nonexistent playerbase, my nostalgia makes me reminisce about the good times

But if your hot take doesn't have any reasoning behind it, then it's just a bait

[glacial pivot]

yes but atleast they have to get kills for it to extend, and even then its 3 kills just to get past 15 seconds and by them, if you get 3 kills you prob won a fight regardless

15 seconds lets you abuse it at all times

[pliant barn]

it was takedowns not kills and if u got one (which will happen even in losing fights) then it exceeded current duration, past that and youd still be ghosting after the fight ended lol

it was 10 seconds base with 4-7 (based on level) added on takedown

so u matched current duration with one takedown at lvl 5 and exceeded it at lvl 10

[formal elm]

it worked really well on trynd and jinx

[glacial pivot]

Gonna drop mine I always believe

Leesin isn’t a hard champ.

[rocky perch]

Why’s that? Dude requires some hella fast combos to weave in and out

Also aiming but that’s not exclusive

[opaque grove]

Maybe to play him to potential, but tbh, even a modest amount of work on mechanics and you'll be able to get pretty good results out of him in most situations. A lot of the fancy combos have rather limited niches for application.

[rocky perch]

heres one

[glacial pivot]

Just QQ and EE, W out or if you want max dmg, W in with ward, EE to slow and dmg and then just weave autos as they try and dodge Q

Insecing does take a bit of skill, but im not going to say its impossible, and with flash its just a matter of QQR flash/

[rocky perch]

leblanc is ridiculous and people need to stop downplaying

[opal grail]

That's an extremely shallow idea of what Lee Sin is as a champion lol

[spiral beacon]

The mentality "if you lose, it's your fault" is one of the cringest things of all time. This is a 5v5 game, there are times you won't be able to carry/get carried cause you have a dogshit teammate.

Also, League of Legends in an amazing game. If you're a new player, you should try playing it. Don't listen to the playerbase, they're annoying. You can surely make fun out of this game. Being flamed/having toxic people is part of every multiplayer games, that's it.

lol playerbase be like: lol is bad
then proceeds to queue up and play for 3 more hours

[merry vapor]

so real

[worthy sparrow]

So brave

[merry vapor]

towres need to do more damage

as in % max hp true damage

and make them actually scale so they're actually a thing late game

[worthy sparrow]

no

[vivid sinew]

rarely seen such a bad idea

[mint verge]

40min turrets dealing 50% max hp true damage:

[opaque grove]

Issue with towers isn't their damage output, it's their lack of durability later in the game (plates are making outer towers frankly unduly tanky)

[severe matrix]

More resistance to AP on towers would be nice, full build mages auto a tower thrice and it falls over

[pliant barn]

Everything obliterates tower hp honestly

If its not 3 autos its 5 from an adc who autos faster

3 from a toplaner

And etc

[opal grail]

After a certain point in the game, towers don't do enough damage and are too squishy

the amount of games where I could end from 25+ mins because someone can just tank towers is a bit absurd

Also fed tanks just tank tower shots like it's just another enemy champion

[severe matrix]

Very true but imo it’s the total autos, usually top laners have an ability to shred turret which is then also on (short) cd while mages have their entire kit still left when they one shot a turret

[dreamy snow]

the truth of league balance is that if the playerbase learned to critically think about itemization and runes it would be a completely different game at all skill levels and personally i think it'd be worse off for it. optimized build paths and runepages are force multipliers for exhibiting how poor Riot's approach (or lack thereof) to counterbalance patching is. the illusion of having a maximum of two "solved" and "viable" build paths and optimal runes per champion without factoring in draft is already debilitatingly boring from a creativity standpoint, but the reality of how league and its items in particular work is even worse. this is the only exception of when i would validate that it's actually a good thing that the playerbase (and majority of the pro scene) have no fucking idea what they are doing yet.

[opal grail]

Everyone overfocuses on itemization and runes

[cobalt turret]

Just buff inner turret damage to minions and damage overall, turrets become weaker the closer they are to your base btw.

[fallen dock]

I kinda get why that's the case with towers, since they dont want games to last forever so the closer the turret is to base , the weaker it is, but it just doesn't make sense from any other perspective

[severe bough]

not sure if controversial but Id like 3 summoner spell slots

[rocky perch]

It is controversial but if they made a game mode for it then it could be fun

Then again everyone will prolly take flash ghost ignite or flash ghost exhaust

[opal grail]

Yep

If you don't take flash ghost then you are not going to have a fun time

[rocky perch]

Real

[severe bough]

almost everybody already takes flash

si its more like 90% of champs already only have one summ spot really

cos considering the amount of mobility they cant play without it

idk maybe they should just have a look at the summ spell system, it doesnt feel great

[rocky perch]

Yh but 3 gives people way too much mobility and dmg/utility

That’s why I’d limit it to a side mode like one for all and urf

[placid igloo]

If league keeps going down the path it has taken the game will be dead within 3-4 years or becomes a kin to Fortnite in the public reception

As for community, it will become kinda like dota or wow, as in, a select few still play it and are dedicated to it, but the player base won’t grow, at least in the west, simply cos the icons that promoted it begin to die out or become upset with the game and there aren’t any new ones following, in Korea, China, etc you will always have pro players to follow and they will amass great success in their career as influencers since they are successful and are usually treated like celebrities, whereas in the west there are a few successful ones but nobody outside of the league bubble knows them (excluding team owners like Kamet0 or Ibai), meaning established names like Tyler1, IWD, or Caedrel will eventually move away from the game cos they aren’t happy with the game since it has little resemblance to what they actually liked about league and there is no one to follow them since the community doesn’t allow for them to grow, as in, they are used to the established people and treat everything else as non existent. Therefore, riot should have an interest in making them stay, at least until esports becomes an established field in the public opinion, they are who carry the game’s attention after all

[formal elm]

the eastern countries are the only places that matter anyways

NA doesnt give two shits to fix their competitive scene and grow new talent

NA has been irrelevant since 2009 in league they've never ever made it to worlds finals and never will

the day they win worlds is the day that the east has moved on from league and found a new game to dominate

[placid igloo]

This isn’t about esports but community

[formal elm]

ye who gives a flying fuck about the community in the west of league tho literally noone

[placid igloo]

Which is true, the east has the highest player base, but riot should still focus on the west since they’d be ignoring 30-35% of their community if they do

[placid igloo]

Well, ask any dev of any game with a somewhat good community structure, they will tell you that ignoring 30-35% of your community is basically a death sentence to the game for those parts of the community, same for politics btw

[formal elm]

those parts not the entire community

[placid igloo]

Those parts include 4 continents and about 5 billion potential customers

Like if they want to hyper focus on Asia, sure go for it, but don’t question why your game is losing popularity then

[formal elm]

the community grows through esports somewhat doesnt it though>?

[placid igloo]

It’s legit one of only reasons why league is still a thing in the west, esports done right by Riot and influencers giving their soul for the game

[violet mulch]

Master Yi is harder than most champs

[worthy sparrow]

league has been dying for the past 10 years apparently. this is basically like the us housing market crashing. will it happen at some point? yes. are the people who say its going to happen anytime soon correct? no.

[zealous osprey]

yeah force everyone to build 1 thing every game with no diversity, very healthy for the gmae

[placid igloo]

Your average ratio of sqft/$ went from .25 to .08 in about six years, idk, guess you guys also had an inflation of 300% over the last 6 years, surely this will end well soon 💀

And yes predictions aren’t perfect but they should scare the hell out of you if you simply hear those numbers and are interested in being a part of it, whether that’s league or housing. Difference is that league could just solve it by making some radical change like offering players the actual possibility to test out new stuff without there being any problems, like the PBE. But for this to work they’d actually have to promote the PBE, maybe let players come up with their own ideas, and most importantly provide a PBE for every region currently supported by League servers. As of right now there is only NA with a PBE, everyone else has high ping, the US housing department doesn’t have that luxury, so Riot should be happily testing new stuff without there being any consequences since they can just decide to not ship it. Proposition One from my part would be to just cut the damage, especially in terms of scaling, for every class but adc and mages. Assassins and skirmishers can have all the damage they want in early game as long as it doesn’t scale as good as it does now. Their win con is to win early and close fast, so punish them for not hitting that goal

[worthy sparrow]

my point is not that it wont happen. i said i expect it to. my point is that putting a timeframe such as 'league will die in the next 5 years' is incredibly dumb and just serves to make you look like a general hater. people have been saying the housing market wont survive interest rate raises since before the pandemic, and yet here we are 5 years later and the housing is getting more expensive not less like people thought it would.

[placid igloo]

You know that the pandemic actually prevented it from happening? As in, without the pandemic it would actually be much worse now, cos yeah inflation in general rose but the ratio of sqft/$ went up from around .12 to .15 during the pandemic, sure it isn’t .28, but it’s improvement, since inflation doesn’t hit every branch of the economy the same way. When people have to deal with inflated food and goods they can’t buy a house, therefore salesmen need to drop the prices as to not being stuck with them and making no money, therefore the general price for 1sqft dropped, once the pandemic was over the inflation began to lower too, therefore more people could afford a new house again, therefore raising the price again by an incredibly high amount, due to the general willingness of people to buy a house rising.

However, it’s the same in league, the pandemic saved the game cos people were stuck at home, allowing for riot to get away with murder, in terms of murdering game balance. They are still stuck on resurrecting it, but in a bad way. They hyper focus on keeping their game fast and want everyone to be able to carry, but thats just not how league works, you can’t have everyone have gold since certain roles don’t work well with gold while others work too well and everyone having damage causes way too many issues too since you throw everything off balance, which is why gold and damage should both be nerfed across the board while also allowing for scaling to carry the game, not only damage scaling, but all kind of scaling. (And also need assassins, unhealthy role for the game)

[opaque grove]

I don't think it'll die, but it will start to decay and maybe eventually die if riot doesn't try and fix what actually needs fixing. (Lot of the community is correct that 'the game isn't fun anymore' but almost none of them seem to grasp why: Because most of the meaningful choice for teams that get behind even a modest amount early on in the game is gone now). Various system changes over the year have made the game more snowbally and comebacks harder and harder, which isn't good for the game because it renders the later stages of the game less relevant and often not that worth playing because you can usually know the outcome beforehand.

[opaque grove]

Slowing the pace of gold acquisition would both curb damage and allow for a better balance of early, mid, and late game.

I was very saddened when, in the last state of LoL vid they said they were fine with where snowballing and gamepacing was at....

[waxen heart]

That's not very spicy

[violet mulch]

well i also have this one: adc is by far the least demanding postition skill wise and brain wise

[opaque grove]

easy to play, hard to be impactful with.

Like you can get buy being pretty mediocre at ADC and like be at least useful and not a massive liability in most of your games, but if you want to consistently impact your games and carry many of them....you have to be really good at the role.

[waxen heart]

I disagree, that goes to support

[violet mulch]

i meant in the higher ranks
master+

[opaque grove]

Support is super easy to do well in, most of it is just good macro

Like support is legit the most elo inflated role and even riot has acknowledged this

[waxen heart]

Such a weird statement

[opaque grove]

and yes, this is referring to high elo particularly.

[waxen heart]

You are saying that adc is the easiest position when players are already really really good at the game

[opaque grove]

I'm saying ADC is quite forgiving but also very hard to excel in.

[waxen heart]

It's spicy

[opal grail]

REAL

Most based take on this thread

[opaque grove]

definitely fits for controversial hot take.

Only thing that is for real easy AF about ADC is itemization, it's so 1-dimensional

[opal grail]

The role is easy because everything about that role is 1-dimensional

The skill floor is middling at best

[opaque grove]

Hard part about the role is actually outplaying enemy teams in teamfights

massive amount of knowledge+skill checks there

[waxen heart]

Yep, there is almost no difference between Ruler and deokdam

[opal grail]

That's the hardest part but it's dishonest to act like other roles doesn't have similar if not same requirement of that knowledge

[opaque grove]

Not at all, every other role has way more tools or just defensive stats and is also a lower priority target for the enemy

Like a burst mage can drop their rotation and get blown up and still have made a worthwhile contribution to a fight, ADC doesn't have that.

[opal grail]

Sure but that's really not a fair comparism. If the condition for being useful in teamfight is dealing as much dmg in short time span, then of course burst mages are more useful then adcs.

[opaque grove]

The point is that you can not even position that well as a mage and with some skill in execution still make a worthwhile play. If you do that as ADC, you've inted the fight and there's no changing that.

Every other class has a much more forgiving time in teamfights (juggernauts are probably the most forgiving, followed by actual tanks).

[opal grail]

No one disagrees with that but here's an example

if the difficulty curve is 1-10. Most ranged champs in the game lies in the 7-10 range

[opaque grove]

I'd say many mages are more like 5-6 (if they have a simple to execute kit)

[opal grail]

It depends on your scale because if you compare role to role then it is possible to come to that conclusion.

But I'm thinking about the actual difficulty relative to gaming itself.

[opaque grove]

I'd say juggernauts are like 1-3 on that scale

[waxen heart]

Then adc can't be the easiest

[opal grail]

Like 1 would be candy crush, 5 would be like minecraft, 6 is juggernaut and 9 is adcs

[opaque grove]

LoL itself is at least a solid 8 then

[opal grail]

I agree

[opaque grove]

game is legit very complex. Only a few games are harder and part of what makes LoL hard is that it's pvp.

[waxen heart]

Solid 8 indeed

[opal grail]

It's disingenuous to act like mages are that much easier then adcs when in reality, the difference between each role is miniscule, is my point

[opaque grove]

I was talking role to role

because comparing LoL to other games is an out-of-scope problem to the conversation at hand.

[opal grail]

yeah I don't disagree with your take that burst mages are easier then adcs

[opaque grove]

the gap between an average ADC and really good one is also massive which says a lot about the skill ceiling of the role imo.

[opal grail]

That's extremely subjective

The only role that is confirmed to have the highest skill ceiling is jungle and support

[opaque grove]

support has the lowest

[waxen heart]

Who confirmed that ?

[opal grail]

Riot

[waxen heart]

Where ?

[opaque grove]

support and jungle have the highest impact on games

[opal grail]

Riot released info about how the roles with highest differential between winrates based on autofilled role is jungle then support

[opaque grove]

that's the not the same as skill expression.

[waxen heart]

send link

[opaque grove]

That shows that Jungle and Support have the least transferable knowledge that those who main other roles can carry to the autofilled role.

[opal grail]

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/s8cgan/according_to_riot_august_support_iswas_the_most/

[opaque grove]

That's..again. not a measure of skill expression, but of uniqueness of the required knowledge.

[cold sandal]

as a proud fill role main, jungle is the hardest role

[waxen heart]

that's not even the same thing you were stating

[opaque grove]

Jungle is hard mostly because of how different the knowledge and skills required are, and just how important it is to the early game for your team (jungle gap is massively impactful).

[cold sandal]

yeah you have to know everything as a jungler

[opaque grove]

It's knowledge no other role needs or teaches you for the most part, that's what's so hard.

knowing jungle routes, timers, gank conditions, etc. etc.

[cold sandal]

wave management(wave states), keeping control of summoner spells, routes, timers, conditions

but u still get blamed if u dont gank an impossible to gank lane

[opaque grove]

yea, legit good junglers have to able to read wavestates as well as laners without playing a lane to learn it from experience.

[opal grail]

The thing is that supports need to know this as well

[opaque grove]

Yea, basically if a teammate ever complains about my jungle choices, I like to ask them if they jungle much, if the answer is: no. I tell them that they shouldn't try to tell any jungler what to do because they don't even know half of the things I am juggling or need to consider.

[opal grail]

The skill floor of sup is low because they don't need to know that

[opaque grove]

Yea, support has some overlap with jungle in that regard (moreso now that we are in a roaming support meta)

[opal grail]

But the skill ceiling is high because if the support knows that then that's where the gap becomes huge

[opaque grove]

it's not that hard to master, but it's something the game doesn't invite you to learn

[opal grail]

actually this is wrong, support should know this

[opaque grove]

and for which the required learning isn't easily achieved from visceral feedback.

[cold sandal]

you dont have to know this

[opal grail]

the issue is that most support players are bad and don't want to learn this lol

[cold sandal]

but you will have to know this if you wanna be good as a player

[opaque grove]

support can contribute pretty well without roaming, but the difference in impact between one that does roam well and one that doesn't roam at all is big.

[opal grail]

Yep so wouldn't you agree that the sup skill ceiling is high

[opaque grove]

There are some things this game teaches very well (lhings where if you do it wrong, you get punished pretty quickly and clearly for it)

But there are also things that aren't so easily learned from experience (lot harder to connect the impact of pushing a lane at 15:00 to the dragon fight that happened at 16:00 for instance)

I'd say support is still an easy role, just requires learning some things the game doesn't naturally beat into you, but once you know it, doing it isn't that hard.

it's knowledge check heavy, but easy to execute.

[opal grail]

But this is skill floor, no?

[opaque grove]

No, skill floor is how good do you have to be to get by.

For support that's really low, just understanding how to scrap in lane and having a modicum of an idea of how to ward and participate in fights later in the game is enough.

[opal grail]

Easy to execute is quite literally getting by. Skill ceiling is the skill mastery of that same skill.

[opaque grove]

Playing support well requires you to know things, but if you know that stuff doing it isn't hard.

[opal grail]

So are you saying it's easy to master support?

[opaque grove]

Yes, it can be hard to figure out what you need to be doing (and understanding the conditions for when to do what; this is knowledge checks)

But once you learn it, it's pretty easy (compared to other roles, at least) to do it.

[opal grail]

So what are the support skillsets then?

[opaque grove]

A lot of good support play after lane is about macro and vision game. Playing fights is pretty simple overall.

[opal grail]

So let's say this is the jungler skillset

[opaque grove]

They have overlap, yes

it's why I recommend jungler's who want an off role go support, their skills as a jungler transfer there well+they can learn about lane mechanics by playing it, which helps their jungler decision making.

[opal grail]

then what is the laner's skillset, it's basically some of this plus knowing lane fundamentals

[opaque grove]

(I also recommend it to ADC mains because it helps them better understand the 2v2 because they're playing the other side of the pair that way)

Support doesn't have to really know as much about wave control, but they do need to be able to read wavestates at least.

[opal grail]

ALSO outside of learning how to farm the jungle, isn't it fair to say that is literally the skillset of supports

[opaque grove]

Big one for both ADC and sup is understanding 2v2 scrapping.

[opal grail]

aka the lane fundamentals

[opaque grove]

supports don't have nearly as much they're responsible for macro-wise during earlygame, so they aren't as involved in the macro until post-laning.

it's beyond just laning, you can be a good solo laner and still shit at 2v2 lane.

undestanding things like how to aggro juggle via positioning and movement and stuff.

[opal grail]

I would hard disagree, it is extremely common for supports to play the map on first back and the 5 min grub spawn

[opaque grove]

Yea, that's a recent thing, and tbh, ditching lane for grubs is 50/50 a good or awful move depending on wave states across the map.

with the changes to first spawn times for grubs, it's better to play for drake, then roam if you win that play and the enemy contested (if they trade, it's fine, play the lane).

[opal grail]

Now let's circle this all back around, the support must know almost all of the jungle fundamentals (outside of farming camps) and must know the lane fundamentals of the lane.

[opaque grove]

Support doesn't have to last hit, or manage the wave (that's a lot of how to lane well)

[opal grail]

Why is support still considered to have a low skill ceiling

[opaque grove]

Because almost everyone else does most of this stuff (at least post lane)

and more, and often has a lot more to consider for how to play fights well.

[opal grail]

they absolutely must know how to manage the wave. While support do not need to actually last hit, they also need to understand how to play around the last hit.

[opaque grove]

They need to know how to read wavestates.

That's a lot simpler than actually knowing how to manipulate them.

[opal grail]

If you are a support player who does not know how to manage waves then that is a major issue because that is a core fundamental skillset of support

[opaque grove]

I play all 5 roles

[opal grail]

In the laning phase, wave management is literally dependent on supports

[opaque grove]

It's dependent on posturing and understanding how your 2v2 matchup plays.

[opal grail]

Things that both the adc and support must know

[opaque grove]

but it's still up to the ADC for the most part to do the actual wave manipulating (which they are doing while juggling the posturing game and everything else)

[opal grail]

and is not just something that only the adc needs to know

[opal grail]

it is up to both of them

[opaque grove]

Again, it's the difference between reading the wavestate and knowing how to manipulate it.

[opal grail]

Supports directly manipulate the wave

[opaque grove]

support has to be able to read it, but doesn't need to know all there is to know about manipulating it.

there a few situations where support should be involved in wave manipulation, but that's pretty high level (It's rare to see supports below diamond that even know to do it).

[opal grail]

okay im just going to test you

https://youtu.be/o699AiW0QMo?si=fkF8BBBvqbsQvfji

Do you think the Zyra and Zilean is doing something wrong in the first 3 waves

If you can watch this replay and think that supports do not matter for wave manipulation, then I want a good explanation why

[opaque grove]

Yuumi's straight up not using their procs and it would've helped the jhin thin the wave more (still going to crash there, but there's no reason for yuumi not the spend her tributes, this doesn't require wave manipulation knowledge to realize you should do it (knowing when not to do it does)

Also she didn't seem to heal/shield at all versus the poke, but that's about wave manipulation.

[waxen heart]

zyra is trolling lmao

[opal grail]

Whoops sorry, i changed the replay because it was an iron game

[opaque grove]

She was actually helping, but the Kai'Sa wasn't autoing enough (I knew it at level 1 and because of it, Lucian crashed 2nd wave, and I think that was avoidable)

probably could've pulled a freeze there, but tbh, Kai'Sa was the one not playing that right moreso than the Zyra.

[opal grail]

So just to be clear you think that the Support not aa'ing the wave isn't the lack of wave manipulation?

[opaque grove]

Autoing the wave to help you carry is something I basically never see other support in Gold MMR do (I do it, because I know when, where, and why to do it)

I was told that it's something almost no supports below Diamond understand

[waxen heart]

Wait, my apologize, you are actually gold ?

[opaque grove]

I play versus Golds, never done enough ranked to hit it (been in Silver I promos from B1 in like 30 games played)

[waxen heart]

How are you so opinionated about the game you are not even doing well in ?

[opaque grove]

I am gold while playing 5 different roles and like 100 different champs though

very few people can play that much at that level.

[waxen heart]

Man, everyone can do that

[opaque grove]

The average player can play 1 role and a handful of champs at that level.

[waxen heart]

Anyway, you are not the topic, but please please please, try to get better

[opaque grove]

Eh, I'd have to specialize to do that

[waxen heart]

Earlier you were speaking about master+ games and you have never been close to do that

[opaque grove]

I'm not freakishly talented, nor do I want to specialize.

[opal grail]

You get used to it lol

I just try to challenge the actual argument instead

[waxen heart]

I mean it's okay, he can be correct, it's just it isn't based on any merit

[opaque grove]

I am not unaware of what's happening in high level games. I don't know enough to play at that level (and nowhere near practiced enough).

I am usually the type of player that understands a game far better than I can play it.

Like I catch myself making mistakes often multiple times per game.

[waxen heart]

I see, oh well, it doesn't make your opinions invalid

I will die on a hill that adc is top 2 hardest roles

[opaque grove]

Yea, too many people naively think: not high elo->don't know anything about the game....which is silly.

It is the hardest to excel at imo.

But it is also more forgiving, especially during early game than some other roles.

[waxen heart]

No way, it's the least forgiving

[opaque grove]

You're not in control of much, but that's part of why it is forgiving, you don't have to be good to get buy in laning phase.

[waxen heart]

If I played adc in soloq I would lose 9 out of 10 games

[opaque grove]

That's because later in the game, the skill diff becomes a hugely relevant chasm.

[waxen heart]

Every other role I would probably win 4

[opaque grove]

Like if you want to not get destroyed in lane as ADC, just let them start pushing level 1, then collect a freeze and play safe all lane, you're very likely to end up with decent farm and not being turbo gapped by the enemy bot duo.

[waxen heart]

No no no

[opaque grove]

That said, if you're no good at the role, GL doing much to impact the rest of the game after lane.

[waxen heart]

If you are not pushing and you can push you are losing !

[opaque grove]

Most bot laners in gold MMR don't really understand wave manipulation, so they tend to perma-shove (which is bad).

[waxen heart]

Perma shoving is better than freezing when you don't have to freeze

[opaque grove]

Only good thing about constantly shoving is the drake prio you get from it, but against a competent enemy duo, it may very likely get you killed.

I love freezing during early lane because it makes it super easy for my jungle to gank, and makes it almost impossible for enemy jungle to do that to me, and then I can choose when to push it out (e.g. when drake is about to spawn)

to create prio when it actual matters.

[waxen heart]

What if you are freezing and they are stronger, so they break the freeze, stack a wave and dive you

[opaque grove]

If you have a strong all-in lane, freezing is super powerful against enemy duo.

(because you can force them to either lose farm or risk getting all-in'd far from their own tower)

Like the hardest gapping I've done to enemy duo lanes have been because of having a strong engage bot lane and freezing against them

(they either drop like half the CS or die to me on repeat).

There's a time and place to play permashove

(it's super good with something like a Sivir+Janna lane, where you're almost impossible to jump on and have monster wave clear)

[cold sandal]

a support atleast needs to know how to hold or freeze a wave

[opaque grove]

Then you can just permashove them under tower and they lose farm to tower and can't do anything about it

Yea, knowing how to pull a freeze is helpful (seen a few Gold supports do that)

I used to do the permashove strat w/ Yasuo bot lane a lot if the enemy plays super safe against me (tries to avoid ever letting me all-in them)

Usually resulted in my having +30 or more CS over them by end of lane.

If you really want to learn how to do wave manipulation properly, play top lane....top laners know how to fuckin lane.

Even Gold top laners actually have decent wave control skills.

[cold sandal]

nah just play trundle and run it down

[violet mulch]

i guess that was a spicy one lol

[opaque grove]

Regarding how hard the roles are, I still think Tyler1 Was spot on after he completed his all 5 roles to chally challenge and then commented about how they compared getting each of them there.

[inner ether]

I dont think this is a hot take. I think people generally agree, especially that Support is easiest to climb with.

[opal grail]

^ yep

[spiral beacon]

hot take: low/mid elo opinions matter. they're literally more than 50% of league's playerbase. It's riot's fault to listen to those stupid suggestions and actually making it implemented into live patch

[opal grail]

Not sure why the wording is "it's riot's fault" and not "Riot listens to those suggestions".

Like do you hate Riot or think Riot is being smart?

[placid igloo]

To put it into an analogy: playing adc is like going down a very narrow street by night. You can’t decide whether people with a knife show up and kill yob or not and if they do you don’t have that many options but enough to make it work if you are good enough

[pliant barn]

The game is not that snowbally, matches are almost all winnable (to the tune of 90-95%) if u/ur teammates dont tilt out of the game and stop playing

And it should have a substantial snowball element anyway like lanes are way more interesting than mid/lategame of shoving waves back and forth before flipping a baron fight or something

People say how much they love “close” games but in reality once a match extends past 35 minutes it gets much less interesting, healthbars explode in one second by that point and the number of champion interactions goes way down as a whole outside of lanephase

[vague arch]

Can't see the clip but tbh early game yuumi shielding mild poke isn't great. If you spam e you end up with 0 mana and you're easy to all in. Yuumi's w should sustain enough unless its like an insane poke champ

[civic kettle]

also, if no one comes to stab you, gg ez you get where your going without any issues assuming you dont get lost

[opaque grove]

Yea, this is a function of damage creep and everyone being full build by then (assuming not garbage tier resource collection)

I think the game would be more interesting if average game lengths were more like 35 minutes instead of 30 (they are lower in higher elos, which is fine)

slow resource accumulation by like 15% too so you don't hit full build like almost every game, but any game that goes long, fair chance you do

rn, laning feels artificially long (and contributes to negative experiences in lane because at a certain point the winner of a lane is a big enough snowball the loser can't do anything about it.

midgame is overly short as a consequence (we almost do see rotational midgame play anymore)

and late game thus arrives to early relative to midgame.

[pliant barn]

Lanes end way too early lol people go mid at like 12 minutes

Lanephase should be 15-20m minimum

[placid igloo]

Yeah it’s like US Mexican border just in league basically

[trim crystal]

hook supports coming to toplane at 8 minutes are the cringiest idiots out there

[grand gate]

idk this take might be ice cold but bork should be like 3 million gold and cost the sacrifice of your first born

[rocky perch]

POV irelia Is 1/5 but just bought bork (she is now impossible to deal with)

[opal grail]

Games have always been 30 minutes

[civic kettle]

my games range from 30 to 55 so that tracks

[severe matrix]

Every time you buy it you sign a bit more of an infernal contract for your next born child

[opaque grove]

That's not really too early imo, long laning phases often lead to unfun experiences for whomever is the worse off party in that lane. Issue is also one of champion scaling, mathematically champs hit midgame with first item completion (it's a huge ratio between the champion's base power level without items and how strong they are with a full complete item (maybe+boots). For instance, back when shieldbow was a thing on Yasuo, I did the math on his attack DPS, without items versus with shieldbow+zerks, at level 9. The difference? About a 3-to-1 ratio. So 4500g in items straight up tripled his DPS (and gave him a useful defensive passive that further increased his damage output when triggered for a bit). Point being that champion power grows very fast to first item generally, and then, in terms of ratio, its growth slows significantly afterwards. This is when champions hit midgame, so unless you want drastically slow gold+xp income, having 20 minute laning phases won't be healthy for the game just because of how it will harm midgame champs and favor picking for late game. Let alone that being in lane after that much time will often mean that you're either gapping your lane opponent or being gapped, with few examples of any in-betweens happening.

To further demonstrate this, we can look up 1st item, 2nd item, etc. completion times. and What you find is that first item is often right around 12 minutes, and 2nd is usually about at 20 minutes, 3rd is often done by like 27 or so (but beyond 2nd item, you start to see a bias towards earlier times because sometimes game's end without item completions 3 or onwards and thus the numbers are skewed to lower values (like avg. last item times are ~35 minutes even though being full build by then isn't common except in very high elos, where games rarely go that long.

[opaque grove]

S1 they averaged over 40minutes

That average has been in the low 20s at some times in the past too. Game pacing in LoL felt better in the early days. (IDK what it was in season 4, but it think it was on the longer side a bit).

[pliant barn]

How would having an item before lanephase ends hurt the game lol

[opaque grove]

Not so much the item itself, it's the nature of power growth in the game, and how that creates massive unequal conditions in a long laning phase (which leads to a very asymmetry and unfun kind of interaction between the involved laners; basically someone gets ahead and then eventually the other party is powerless to do anything about it, but the game continues anyways; this is a lack of meaningful choice that is bad for the game).

Like if you get a significant lead and know what to do with it, you can basically stop your opponent from getting to play the game.

and longer a lane goes on for, the more likely that level of asymmetry is reached.

[pliant barn]

@opaque grove i think a few minutes of that in exchange for needing to earn that lead is perfectly fine, ur saying this like its a bad thing but thats just how the game works

[opal grail]

Check leagueofgraphs it has always been around the 25 min mark

Maybe there were points when it wasn't but from what I saw the majority of the time it was around 25 mins

[opaque grove]

It didn't used to work like that. Used to be if you got a significant lead, you'd take tower and then play the map. That was much better for the game, not just for the fact that worse off side of that lane had a chance to farm and maybe get back into the game, but because the person ahead could also use their lead to try and put their team in a winning position while they are at an advantage relative to the other lanes (lot of good going 7/0 top is if you can't influence the rest of the map till 20 minutes and then the enemy ADC is 2.5+ items and they can totally just kill you in a teamfight despite your lead).

Also lead to more rotational midgame play, which we hardly see anymore (part of this is the the fact that neutral objectives are much more valuable, still easy to take, and there are more of them/more often), but part of it is also how quickly compared to the end of laning phase you hit endgame (laning phase averages about 14:30-16:00 currently, as evidenced by the average time outer tower is taken across all lanes).

[pliant barn]

What elo are you talking about because a significant lead can just mean a good wavestate, that kind of thing doesnt mean ur gonna go barrel down mid or something though

[opaque grove]

like being up a level and a few kills. (The point where what might normally be a rough matchup from an even state is now decidedly in favor of the one with the lead)

[vague arch]

I wouldn't say youre not affecting the map if you're 7/0 in top lane your enemy laner probably can't contest your sidelane pressure alone and you can start taking enemy jungle camps as well depending on your champ

[opaque grove]

sure, you should be able to do something w/ a big lead like that, but you don't get to really start playing the map until you take outer tower, which w/ a big lead is faster....but stll not that fast (like to give a comparison, before we got tower plates, snowballing perfectly versus bots I often took tower before minute 6, now it's hard to do it before minute 9 except in bot lane because of no protection for first 5 minutes unlike mid/top and even there, sub 8 minutes isn't easy). This means the big lane gap is something both parties still have to play for a while even when the outcome is obvious and there's not really any meaningful choices here, for either party). It's bad to not have meaningful choice in the game like that.

Like I consider up 3/0 to usually mean the lane is functionally over and the one w/ that lead will win it barring them doing something stupid and throwing their lead over their lane opponent.

They should be able to force tower pretty quickly off of a lead that decisive.

So that they can start impacting the map early, and the losing party in that lane no longer has to deal with an unplayable situation too (and it's the interest of the advantaged party to allow this because killing the other not gapped enemies is worth more and helps ensure they get a win more than continuing to abuse the person they've already gapped).

The game used to play this way back in the day too.

[rugged depot]

zxammy wammy omg!

[cobalt turret]

low sehn

[rugged depot]

thats MEAN!

[formal elm]

yuumi is the hardest champ to play in league

[rocky perch]

yh and malphites very complex

garen requires a lot of skillshots fr

[vague arch]

cait ult is really hard to hit

[slender island]

soraka is a hypercarry

[robust jackal]

Hot take: balance team leads should be atleast legit none boosted masters in ranked for every 3 out of 5 roles.

[mint verge]

unending despair should have 5 sec cooldown

[opal grail]

This is true tbh

[deft rover]

Unending despair will suck now no ingenious hunter

[cerulean wind]

Not hot take

[robust jackal]

Maybe

[rocky perch]

They should completely neuter malphite r scaling

let it exist idc but im not a fan of horizon focus into 1 shot

[placid igloo]

Hot take: the current patch proposal of 14.10 would be good if they decreased the damage for all classes especially tanks

[opal grail]

Nah it's p hot

[heady ledge]

my hot take is that vanguard is fine, people are being overdramatic.

[severe matrix]

Lots of people have problems with their pc, not league, after installing which requires some very technical stuff if you’re unlucky

[rocky perch]

People need to stop defending champs like Garen and malphite cause they have “simple game plans” when the gameplan is toxic af (more so aimed at Garen here fuckin goofy ahh worlds pick)

[daring oasis]

I just call it the “old and simple ≠ good champion design”

[opal grail]

This is actually based ash

A lot of the really complicated kits have gone on to be really popular and fun champions

[daring oasis]

i've held that opinion since Akshan was released

and also more words ≠ super complex

[fallen dock]

BASED AS HELL

I love getting poked out of lane by point and click that steals my movement speed

My main issue with Garen is just his passive, unless I'm playing someone with a skill shot or two like Panth or Morde, it feels pretty rough needing to walk up to him every couple seconds so his passive doesn't just get him back to full health after he takes an ass cheeks trade

[heady ledge]

I have people complain about champs like the Skarner rework broken, hell even fiddle for some reason, when there are champs like tryndamere who are blatantly unhealthy for the game

"as yes, imma defend the champ who relies on rng from crit chance to snowball laning phase and nothing else"

[placid igloo]

I mean yeah it’s toxic but no you can do stuff against it, garen can’t do anything against you if you simply anticipate how far away you have to be to not get Q’d, same for malphite, just take d shield and second wind, everything else is just you being able to flash the R or not and whether your jgl wants to punish him while his R is down, yeah trading offensively or trying to be proactive against them is not gonna work since they have several things in their kit to punish you for being proactive towards them, all that really matters is that a champ like garen can’t do anything against you unless you allow him to, by trading during bad trading windows or not respecting his damage or stuff like that, same for malphite, he can ult you but he can’t kill you if you don’t panic and just fight towards your strengths you will win

[rocky perch]

brother if not a whole lot u can do if the malphite flash rs you for example and kills ur dps and or jungle

cause his combo is nigh unreactable

cant say ur wrong about garen but as i posted earlier champ was consistently performing at world which for that kind of champ is kinda lame

[placid igloo]

1 player in 4 games = performing at worlds 💀 anyways, yeah it’s just a skill issue if your dps can’t flash a malphite R or if you take a fight while your carry’s flash is down and malphite R is up, that’s cooldown tracking

[rocky perch]

that 1 player also cooked with gasoline using a complicated combo of q e r

[placid igloo]

Don’t forget the stride breaker, but again, it’s one player out of 160

[tall hedge]

She isn't the weakest adc perse her champion just functions better when her duo is farming because it nets her more souls

[opal grail]

It's probably one of the slowest and readable ults in the game

If you are in dia+, you should never be getting hit by a Malph ult

Garen I can see arguments because of his insane sustain (and nothing else). But Malphite? AND your reasoning is his ult?

[rocky perch]

lowkey think thats cap on the slow part but ill admit that i dont have a argument for point 2

like slow would be something like skarner r

[opal grail]

If you don't think it's slow / reactable, all I'm going to do is make some assumptions about your rank

And not much else (sorry lol)

[rocky perch]

end of the day its controversial hot takes

[vivid sinew]

his sustain isn't that insane in laning phase, all others toplaner that have sustain in their kit sustain more than him

but i can understand that is frustrating

and malphite ult is reactable decently if he does it at half or more of the range

btw like most of the dashing ability the speed does scale with the actual movement speed

[opal grail]

Fair fair

[cobalt turret]

malphites main issue is his poke and him just countering low sustain toplaners

kennen is a good example of an absolute unplayable champ into malphite, if you don't rush sustain + verdant you can't play the game

[placid igloo]

Fleet as keystone and you giga stomp the lane

Plus it’s AP vs Malphite idk 💀

[cobalt turret]

unless u buy mr it wont save u

[placid igloo]

Idk he has no passive and no w passive vs you idk 💀

[cobalt turret]

no sustain pokes you with q

kennen can't bully malphite hard enough early and malphite has kill pressure at 6, i've played the mu quite a few times and it sucks and if the malphite decides to go ap u can't play the game at all until late game where u outscale ap malphite. The only way I've started going even in the lane was following a chall kennen's advice of rushing mr vs it so he never gets you low enough to have kill pressure

[vivid sinew]

Kennen hard win the match-up you can definitely bully him enough in early

[placid igloo]

Nah trust I am just spreading misinformation again trust 💀

[cobalt turret]

tell that to the challenger kennen player

you aren't able to bully him enough early and if you don't receive a gank pre6 the matchup is hard lost for kennen. Kennen also struggles to force malphite to base pre1100g which is kennens main gameplan

[hearty cove]

Idk why people like Jhin I think he is literally the most annoying adc to face

Only reason I don’t use my ban on him is because I don’t want to ever see naut/blitzcrank

[dark aurora]

Jhins very charismatic to a lot of players, not necessarily his gameplay or any of that, though it certainly helps as big numbers make people feel good.

if anyone tries to tell you people dont play champs because of their design just look at jhin.

[hearty cove]

I’ll admit his personality is definitely pretty well done

[rocky perch]

My opinion of Caitlyn pretty much

Just felt like the most rice and water gameplay and I don’t think hee characters interesting either

[turbid wolf]

league feels the most balanced it has ever been, any role can now solo win a game

also they should do a mobility/ah nerf to slow the game a bit

[tacit loom]

malph ult is reactable if you are far enough range and have flash but otherwise not really?

[placid igloo]

Clever movement or just generally maintaining range works as well, you simply don’t face a malphite without flash up as an immobile carry

[glacial pivot]

Wait till 14.10 when adcs take over

[tacit loom]

yes but if a malphite is smart he can basically take you out of the game for 5 minutes at a time, and even then malphite is likely not the only threat on the enemy team

[placid igloo]

Yeah but that doesn’t mean you can’t play the game, you just can’t fight, which is a difference cos it doesn’t invalidate your wave clear or map control, it’s not like you’re dead for 5 minutes you just can’t fight which isn’t nice but it’s manageable

[tacit loom]

well that depends on your team comp and enemy team comp because it can make the game unplayable in certain situations

[placid igloo]

Yeah it can if you mistime your flash and don’t have it up for a drake fight or baron or whatever, but it’s not your job to decide when to fight, that’s on your front line, so if they initiate a fight that you can’t win cos you’d get malphite ulter and die afterwards just don’t fight it and either wait for that ult to go on cd or leave them to die, cos it honestly doesn’t change whether or not you are there

[leaden canopy]

Not sure if this is a hot take or not, but I really want Riot to bring back Rell jungle. There are very few of us Rell jungle enjoyers out there, but she was super fun to play, whether you went AP or tank.

[glacial pivot]

lets not bring back nautilus 2.0 into P/B again

[opaque grove]

You weren't around for season 4 were you? That's my answer to 'what's the best state LoL has ever been in?'

[opal grail]

If you are in melee range of a Malphite then ult being unreactable is the least of your issues

[tacit loom]

you dont have to be melee range to have malphite ult be undodgable. if you are slowed/cced in any way, malph has speed boost from teammates or items, fow, other abilities restricting movement, etc.

[opaque grove]

Yea, malph R is fast enough without anything else that even at max range, you're not walking out of it from dead center before it lands. So it takes at least a dash if not a flash to avoid.

[turbid wolf]

nostalgia my boy

[opaque grove]

It's not, game was in an incredibly good state that season (only abberation to that was the juggernaut patch towards the end of season, and it was just the few reworked champs that were imba after their changes, not really the game overall being in a poor state).

Season 5 would've been just as good had it not been for nerfs to jungle gold income that kinda ruined the viability of carry junglers that season. Then we had season 6....the worst in the games history....aka...league of marskmen.

[tacit loom]

s6 was the best season tho?

[opaque grove]

No...it was literally the worst season the game has seen, the entire class of divers was unplayable that whole season, and it also ended with the goddamned ardent censer meta.

[tacit loom]

i quite enjoyed it as an adc main : )

[opaque grove]

Yea I played a lot of ADC too because it busted AF

But that doesn't mean it was good for the game, just good for ADC mains (and we learned that when ADC is fun, the game is misery for just about every other class).

[tacit loom]

tbh league of tanks was probably my least favorite meta

[opaque grove]

ehh, tanks being OP is mostly bad because it pushes the overall game towards tank+ADCs and pushes most fighters, mages, and assassins out of the meta.

Ironically, same thing happens when ADCs get too strong too, but for different reasons.

[opal grail]

If you are slowed or ccd by anything then even morgana's Q is unreactable

[tacit loom]

not even close

max range if u are slowed vs morgana q much more dodgable than malph r, plus someone can just eat it for you if its that bad

[opaque grove]

This

[tacit loom]

malph ult is literally like 150% faster or more lmao

[cobalt turret]

could say that about half of the abilities in the game

[placid igloo]

Which is good cos except for mages neither assassins nor divers nor fighters provide anything to your team comp except damage, they can’t really engage as well as a tank nor can they tank as much or have as much cc as a tank does and they don’t have the same carry potential as marksmen do if your opponents start to play with their brains and actually walk out of their range before being killed, sure they are fun but they aren’t useful in a coordinated environment except for jungle, but even then the elite teams seem to prefer to play them less like fighters and more like engage bots in cases of champs like vi or wukong which can skirmish very well during early and later on they are just there to engage and die, or they play for picks and resets with champs like Viego or Lee sin, either way they aren’t the main component of your team comp, which is good, they can exist, they just shouldn’t be so strong that your team is required to have one

[opaque grove]

That last sentence should apply to every archetype in my opinion.

[opal grail]

That's the reality if you are an adc tho

You are playing the adc role, you should never be getting hit by anything

[cobalt turret]

yeah but its harder to dodge things on 325 ms than 345

[opaque grove]

It's not always possible, but as much as it is possible, that is definitely the goal.

[cobalt turret]

im a demon on movement on faster champs like gp

[opal grail]

Harder doesn't mean you should be getting hit

[cobalt turret]

depends ur champ as well though

[opal grail]

Play your role properly, stop getting hit by slowest ult in the game

[cobalt turret]

its easy to dodge things when u can 800 range, also malph ult is not that slow lmao

malphite ult is only really dodgable when U see him so you know it's a factor + you are high range, everywhere else is coinflip whether or not you flash in time, also ping is a big factor

[opal grail]

It's slow and even if you don't think it's not, it's def the most predictable

[opaque grove]

Good Malphite's don't telegraph that ult.

[cobalt turret]

^

[opal grail]

You can literally say that about everyone

[cobalt turret]

Lots of malphites will just walk at u until they see a good double or triple stack then vroom

[opaque grove]

Sure, but the point is, if you are reacting to it, it's not a lot of time

[opal grail]

But the reality is that Malphite is an extremely telegraphed champ

If you are below diamon, I can understand not having the hands to consistently dodge the ult

[cobalt turret]

Yeah, but he can also bait and make it difficult for enemy adc to auto if he holds ult

[opal grail]

But you are in diamond, malph ult is nearly impossible to get hit by

[opaque grove]

With flash, sure

but that's a 5 min CD, many of the slower dashes (or shorter ones for that matter) aren't fast enough (or far enough), to get out of it.

[cobalt turret]

Also you aren't dodging a well placed malphite ult unless you instantly turn the fastest way out with good ms or flash.

malphite flies at ~1900ms

[opaque grove]

MS isn't enough unless we're talking like Draven W levels or above.

[bold shell]

mustve never seen the banana combo

[cobalt turret]

U need 400 to get out of his ult if it's perfectly centered on u at max range

[opaque grove]

that assumes perfect, inhuman reaction time (i.e. he telegraphed it)

[cobalt turret]

yeah U have to travel 325 + ur hitbox while he has to travel 1k at 1900ms

[opaque grove]

and also that you were facing the perfect direction already (turn rates exist)

[cobalt turret]

turn rates r minimal on lol it's not dota

[opaque grove]

minimal compared to DotA, but...that's still time your not moving

we're talking about a <0.500 second window here.

Alerted human reaction time is seldom below 0.2 consistently.

[cobalt turret]

yangi left real quick 🤣

[opaque grove]

let alone that you lose maybe 0.05 to turning if you're facing the exact wrong way

[cobalt turret]

you lose another .05 to ping

[opaque grove]

yea

[cobalt turret]

malphite ult is dodged by anticipation not reaction mostly

[opaque grove]

and then the good ones love to just run at you until they can like flash+E on you and if you flash away, they R

[cobalt turret]

lots of malphites I see just sit and frontline till someone stacks

[opaque grove]

yea, if you're looking for the juicy AoE R

[cobalt turret]

don't always have to play for initial engage if u have good ocmp

[opaque grove]

I'm glad AP malph at least got nerfed to where it doesn't consistently 1-shot squishies.

[cobalt turret]

he still pretty much does, but he's useful after going in like a rengar

[opaque grove]

that was such misery to play against back in the day

[cobalt turret]

why play ap malphite when u can play rengar yk

[opaque grove]

I legit preferred dealing with zed because at with w/ zed, you can outplay him if you're really good.

yea, Rengar's burst being on autos via Q is honestly not OK.

can't flash it, you still die to it.

[cobalt turret]

you can also double auto reset -> fly in e land (autos instantly) q w q

[opaque grove]

Yea

If the windup wasn't uncancellable maybe it wouldn't be so bad since then flash would actually do something.

[cobalt turret]

the only thing with the full damage combo if it they flash in time you can lose a stack and be stuck with no fero which means death

[opaque grove]

yea, it's not like it's guaranteed to always work, but when the flash has a good chance of not even saving you at all, it's a bit....unfair

[cobalt turret]

I mean on some champs it's kinda bs though like for talon, his auto got cancelled so much after q'ing that he gets bonus range now

at the beginning of this season with the lichbane stormsurge build you couldn't range q on talon against certain champs and land your auto after which meant no passive procs on lots of champs

[tacit loom]

so are we just making up fiction for fun or what

[opal grail]

If you are in diamond and can't even react to a Malphite ult, I think that's a major issue

[tacit loom]

id love to see a game of u vs malphite dodging every single ult

malphite ult moves 6x faster than the player but yes its purely reactable and dodgable every instance

[bold shell]

https://tenor.com/view/malphite-banana-malphite-banana-combo-banana-combo-malphite-combo-gif-5193087016109473603

[placid igloo]

No you definitely need to have someone to carry your ad damage and someone to do the same for magic, doesn’t mean it has to be an adc they are just the most consistent at doing so

[opaque grove]

sure, but there are non-marksman AD champs that are primarily damage dealers. Yet it's pretty rare to not see a marksman (sometimes more than one) in most teamcomps.

[placid igloo]

Yeah cos they are the most reliable option for your team to get ad damage and have the highest dps peak in the game, they should be picked in every team comp cos you otherwise completely lose in terms of scaling

[opaque grove]

There are some melees that match late game ADC damage output, but they are way more exposed while doing it.

[cobalt turret]

I mean we literally just mathed it out

[placid igloo]

I have to agree btw, it doesn’t matter how fast you react there is mathematically speaking no way to run from the centre to the edge of a malphite ult before the hit box hits you, you need around 638 move speed and 0ms reaction time for it to be remotely possible

[rocky perch]

quicksilver is a scam item that your forced to buy in heavy cc mu

dog stats but cleanse

[heady ledge]

Bel'veth is the best addition to the void champ roster since vel'koz.

[leaden canopy]

Design-wise, yes. Mommy wise, yes. Gameplay wise, why the fuck does she scale infinitely

I don’t remember the last time I saw a bel’veth not carry

[vivid sinew]

minimum 4 dash, Infinite scalling but still have a good early game, 55% damage reduction but keep doing dmg
don't compare this to Vel'koz ty

[opal grail]

People think that just because Belveth scales that she's a late game monster, but the reality is that she's an early/mid game champion.

[leaden canopy]

Yeah her early game is deceptively strong for an infinite scaling champ

[gentle pasture]

She is just strong at every point In the game.

[tacit loom]

If she doesn’t get ahead early she’s pretty bad tho

[rocky perch]

so most jungles?

[tacit loom]

early game jungles yea

[mint verge]

botrk should get 25% crit
thats it thats the change, no drawbacks whatsoever

[vague arch]

I love having a big split pusher champ on my team like no matter how badly youre outscaled late they can always end the game if the enemies get stuck in a fight for too long

backdooring brings me an unnatural amount of joy

[severe bough]

you can unironically get to high gold if not better by picking a split pusher, turning off the minimap and just perma pushing top

[mint verge]

pick trundle build bork and perma top with mute all

[vague arch]

actually lol late game trundle and yorick can take tier 2 to inhib by the time enemies can recall after a fight its crazy

[glacial pivot]

hot take: new mastery dont look bad, people ajust hate change and like the og look more

[pearl zinc]

Hot take.. hmm Lethal tempo was fun and I don't care what balancing issues it brought to the game?

[mint verge]

i'm not sure if i hate its removal or if i appreciate it. being able to cheese matchups with it just because it was that overpowered was fun, but now unfair things like vayne and yone are less annoying

[severe matrix]

That’s exactly what the problem is, an unnecessary change and the old one also looked better

[opal grail]

^ this

League players just hates change

[opal frost]

The new mastery when flashed looks better and gives out the more toxic side of it.

However when shown on the champion portrait when you kill an enemy vice versa, it looks pretty bad compared to the old one

Like I cant even tell which is which without reading what new style they gave out for each mastery milestone

[torn lintel]

The decline of this game especially in terms of people's interests in streams started when Riot removed high elo duoing. A lot of the streamers(esp pros/ex pros) end up playing less or quitting, lots more unranked to challenger streams and a lot more of the annoying sweaty "efficient pathing" pve jungle streamers that are toxic towards any other playstyle. One the fun content got removed, you only get smurfing and "my way is the only way" toxic streams which is reflective of the community.

[formal elm]

it just got added back bro

a bit late on that post

[torn lintel]

Good news but imo too little too late

[torn lintel]

Also i just checked. It is only for masters, not grandmasters and challengers which means a lot of the pros expros that likes to duo queue wont play it.

[opal frost]

Competitive integrity plays a lot into the removal of High elo duoing.

Riot either had a choice of making the game balanced for higher elo or ruin the competitive integrity and keep high elo duoing. Ultimately, its a lose lose scenario for Riot and their best decision was to make it fair for high elo.

I generally dont blame Riot in this case, but I do agree duoing in high elo was good content before.

LL Stylish and Yassuo duoed was good content

[torn lintel]

I think the problem is that whatever people in high elo do gets shown on streams and their behavior gets followed by people.

Duo queue is banned but people are dodging champ select until they get the perfect comp, and this gets followed by all the people that aren't even in low elo.

Streamers aren't having fun without duoing so they spam ff whenever a little bit is not going their way. This also gets copied by the low elo players.

Etc

[opal frost]

I dont really think thats the problem, FF culture has been a thing since a long time and high elo streamers have no impact in this.

But it really depends on the person I guess, if a high elo streamer says Yone is broken, then their audience will majority side with them.

[dark aurora]

sheeple yes.

Regarding duoing in higher brackets there's not really any integrity left since riot hasnt really been aggressive with people doing shady stuff.

[glacial pivot]

oh yeah on inventory, it looks horendous. But the thing itself doesnt look that bad

[rocky perch]

i was perfectly fine with the old item system

[trim crystal]

new masteries look like they stole assets from a garbage mobile game

old ones were distinct and had the oomph, these are worse than fucking emotes even

[formal elm]

not a hot take anyone with good eyes can see that the old masteries looked better

[rugged depot]

This game is solved and is kept intentionally solved because that way balance can made on a maximum revenue basis instead of actually caring about the health of the game.

[opal grail]

What would a solved game look like?

[rugged depot]

It plays the same for a decade plus

It hasnt meaningfully changed at all and any attempts by the playerbase to change it get nerfed to the ground. Its just a rollercoster of buff x group for 3 months so their skins sell followed by group Y

[summer tide]

Lets fundamentally change the entire game and invalidate all the knowledge people have built up pog I think that is a good decision that riot games should make

[opal grail]

You two are claiming that League changes constantly but the core gameplay loop and fundamentals are still the same, no?

[opaque grove]

It's a concept known as "perfect imbalance"

[summer tide]

Shouldn't the core gameplay loop and fundamentals stay the same? If a player is looking for a different gameplay loop and fundamentals just play a different game?

[opal grail]

I'm asking how has League's core gameplay loop and fundamentals changed.

Oh nvm

I see what you are saying now

[rocky perch]

people need to stop overreacting to everything had to afk to help a family member urgently and people crying like i was actively trying to sabotage there game

[opal frost]

When league players take their Pixel rank that serious, it really doesnt matter what you are put in.

If you slightly sabotage the game even if its on accident, League players will be league players.

[rocky perch]

literally u could be having a heart attack and players would cry over a draft match

[turbid wolf]

hot take: riot should drop balance updates for at least a year

[severe matrix]

in what meta? the one where your main is S+ tier?

[turbid wolf]

idc any meta

they dont give people enough time to learn the meta, so people that have a harder time adapting have an unfair disadvantage

just let people hone their skill for a while

[opaque grove]

adaptation is part of the game because it's ever changing. It's a skill that should be learned....and rewarded. Learn how to cook XD

[bold shell]

?XDDD

[turbid wolf]

promoting rage meta abussers isnt a game mechanic bro

how would it be if chess changed rules every month? lol

[formal elm]

Queen no longer can move anywhere she wants she can only move like a pawn unless more than 2 rooks and knights are down

[turbid wolf]

yeah queen needed a nerf for longest time xd

[formal elm]

King now can teleport across the board and one shot any chess piece on sight

[bold shell]

the game itself is always fundamentally the same

you can do the same shit on any champ playing consistent and climb

getting to the point where abusing meta actually matters isnt a place you're at if you cant adjust to patch notes

[dark aurora]

So you're basically asking for stagnation right?

This game always tries to keep itself fresh and if youre saying a year (or longer) isnt enough time to learn a meta/adapt then you severely underestimate the human ability to... well, adapt.

If you want to compare chess to this its incomparable as chess isnt meant to change. straight up.

you can make chess analogies regarding strategical things but that's as far as it goes.

[turbid wolf]

why isnt meant to change and why isnt lol meant for stagnation?

both things are arbritary

[dark aurora]

LoL is completely designed with change in mind. is that not obvious? The game thrives on perfect imbalance and opportunities for said change to take place.

[turbid wolf]

how can a game be designed with change in mind? we are talking about monthly patches not about skins/gamemodes. or are you trying to say that they keep it unbalanced on purpouse?

[dark aurora]

A game can be designed with change in mind when it comes to things like MOBA's due to being able to influence the entirety of the game at its core and everything around it., chess does NOT have this level of flexibility for example. Yes, League of Legends is designed to be unbalanced on purpose for the sake of being able to do the aforementioned.

The people who you mention are slow to adapt needn't worry about this either as more often than not your favorite champion is likely still operable in any given meta. this method keeps the game fresh.

[turbid wolf]

im dumb explain to me why lol can be changed monthly and chess not?

[bold shell]

do u play chess

[dark aurora]

Chess is already incredibly rigid in whats been set in stone. its evolution of change was before it became what it was today.

[turbid wolf]

peak 1000 if it means anything

[dark aurora]

It's more of a history lesson then an explanation as to why.

[bold shell]

so like beginner rating anyways if u dont theres no point in even bringing it up bc u dont even know the game

and chess actually has had "updates" albeit centuries ago

[turbid wolf]

yeah bro lemme search how to move the pawns

[dark aurora]

^ this

[bold shell]

chess isnt just about knowing how to move the pieces

[turbid wolf]

no shit

you are missing what i was trying to say

[bold shell]

in league theres champs items being added to the game which changes things

[turbid wolf]

one month is way to liitle of atime frame to determine what needs to bechanged or not

[bold shell]

and yes things legit are kept intentionally op phreak said it himself

[turbid wolf]

i belive august said it too

their updates are based mostly on pro play

[bold shell]

its not considering theres millions of games played in that time frame testing these changes

[dark aurora]

false! it's based around both soloq and professional play

if it was just pro play briar wouldnt have been nerfed like 7 patches in a row or something hilarious for those players.

[bold shell]

if you look at any patch note it says x thing is being nerfed bc of x skill level

they divided skill brackets so ppl would stop saying that

[turbid wolf]

the numbers doesent really mean much, all the players need time to explore all the options before becoming stagnant

[dark aurora]

are you insinuating that people dont experiment daily across thousands of options (this number is way higher prob i just use thousands since its easier to relate to.)

[bold shell]

theres stats on winrates for basically every action, if you go on lolalytics you can see winrate differences between items 1 2 3 and all the different options

[bold shell]

way higher yeah

[turbid wolf]

experimating isnt the same as finding a long term plan for playing

and most people dont even read the patch notes and play whatever they did before the patch

[bold shell]

so like it literally doesnt apply to them

in any elo where it matters (like i said) they are looking it up and adjusting based on build wrs

[turbid wolf]

it does? they heavily influence the statistics

[bold shell]

most stat websites default to emerald+ for a reason

the players that ur talking about are almost all low elo and arent counted

not to say that low elo isnt balanced for at all

but meta isnt defined by whats good in low elo

[turbid wolf]

then how come in ten years they didnt manage to get to a point where they dont need to patch things up anymore?

this means the balance team is either incompetent or they are not getting the correct numbers

[bold shell]

bc champs items are constantly being added reworked removed

map undergoes changes

before you say ok then just stop that, do u rlly think league would maintain its playerbase with the original 20? champs and map

[dark aurora]

you're asking for perfect balance in this, right?

I just want to make this a bit more transparent since i dont wanna take it the wrong way

[turbid wolf]

2 champs per year, a rework in like 3 years and big item changes like twice a year💀

[turbid wolf]

it litteraly changed this year in like 5

[bold shell]

you're saying in a 10 year span

[turbid wolf]

yeah but with million of games it shouldnt take them more then a month-two to fix things right?

[turbid wolf]

more or less

[dark aurora]

kv has already explained this to you, they keep things unbalanced intentionally for periods of time.

[bold shell]

wdym fix things

[turbid wolf]

if its a balance team problem then there is nothing more to discuss

[dark aurora]

If you want an example of this ironically lethal tempo is right there in your face now that it's gone.

If you want something pertaining to items look at Divine Sunderer

If you want a champion example the one that i always remember vividly is Camille jungle as they let it run rampant for like a year and a half.

[turbid wolf]

like balnce things out so that every champ sits around 48-52 wr

[turbid wolf]

good changes none the less

im not sayng they should stop, and one year is a bit too much yeah

[dark aurora]

it is very naive (and in some aspects very disrespectful) to try and paint the game this level of black & white

[turbid wolf]

but changing the time frame from one month to 2-3 months would help the player base

[turbid wolf]

i mean besides ranks and playrate there is nothing more to take into consideration

im sure the riot smart guys can find a formula for rank wr distribution/playrate

so that every champion has a "balance" score

[bold shell]

thats like practically impossible

[turbid wolf]

techincally its not

[bold shell]

even balancing with just champ classes isnt doable

lets say you want to nerf midlane mages

then you have to buff assassins (which they did like start of last season)

but now every assassin can one shot every adc

[dark aurora]

Nerfing mages directly indirectly buffs assassins and marksman. just gonna throw this into that example

[bold shell]

yes this too

then lets say okay u want to just reduce all damage then, well now tanks r op because they just dont die (durability patch)

its not like chess where the counters arent the pieces but instead strategy, in league some champs r legit just counters to other champs

[turbid wolf]

of course you can do it

its just hard

they have 10 years of patches where they can draw conclusions as to what impacts what

and take everything into consideration

and finding a balance score isnt impossible either

they could also just patch differently for different ranks/proplay

it should make the game "fresh" no?

[trim crystal]

different game versions/balances?

jesus christ do you realize how many rings of hell that would awaken

[opaque grove]

Not what he said, pro play is one thing they consider among many.

[pliant barn]

that is the definition of a fair advantage

[inner ether]

technically it's not impossible as long as you don't care for accuracy. It's near impossible to make an accurate model for balance score as qualitative data and quantitative data are constantly changing because it's all reliant on the execution by the players.
There's not a regression model or perfect formula that builds up the balance of the game.

[weak latch]

Meta doesn't matter.
Counters doesn't matter.
Champion doesn't matter.
Your teammates doesn't matter.

I'll give example of Camille
Picks Camille cuz she's meta then proceeds to lose to an one trick Quinn. Then proceeds to complain about Quinn being ranged and she being broken.
You pick Camille then enemy counters with gnar. Loses lane and complains Camille can't best gnar when she can.
Man I can't play garen because he sucks so I gotta play Camille.
Oh Camille is good for picks but my teammates are only 5v5ing. Man it's not like the enemy adc is alone sometimes and Camille can lock adc down.

[glacial pivot]

so what yout saying is skill/mastery>>>

[weak latch]

Exactly

[ember gorge]

Ranked games are coinflip, or you stomp or get stomped

with some rare excessions

[formal elm]

not a hot take

[weak latch]

You definitely not getting the point

I gave the idea of Camille into Gnar as normally Gnar has advantage. But that advantage is overrided by player skill.

Ok you play Sylas and I play Poppy as one of 3 top lane champions.

Normally Sylas can struggle into Poppy because of her W. But we both know, that Sylas can bait W since it Poppy W has long CD.

Ideally a diamond player Sylas would lose into a Grandmaster Poppy.
While a Diamond Sylas will easily beat a Gold Poppy player.

Although a Diamond player can beat a Masters player if Masters player is first timing Poppy. And can lose to a emerald and possibly Plat if Diamond player is new to Sylas.

[fast comet]

A well implemented performance based ranking system would be the greatest change in the history of ranked. It will fix so many issues such as smurfs, MMR leveling out, trolls,etc..

Wins would still be the most important factor in determing whether or not some climbs the only difference will be the amount someone gains or loses

[dark aurora]

you are stupid.

[opal frost]

WHAT THE FUCK LMFAOOOO

[fast comet]

Lol.. Care to elaborate since Riot themselves have already implemented performance based ranking system in both Valorant and Wild Rift. Also they are already planning to add it to League of Legends as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18tv4gb/comment/kfy0rat/?embed_host_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportskeeda.com%2Fesports%2Fleague-legends-season-14-new-mmr-trueskill-2-systems-explained

[vestal token]

Nasus don't need rework or redesign,

[weak latch]

Extreme examples yes but it's generally true

A skilled player that truly knows how to play their champion will be fairly versed into counters. As player skills shine more

It don't matter how hard you beat Malphite with Sylas

When a Malphite 1trick decides to counter with poppy will likely to lose harder

Because they only see that it's a champ that they think they know how to play. And it counters Sylas but doesn't know why

While a sylas player who knows how to win that, will win regardless and now the malphite player isn't on their strongest form.

[dark aurora]

great! the ranked ladder gets less integrity. as if it had any to begin with.

[fast comet]

Less integrity in what regard? lol?

[opal grail]

If you are able to understand the algorithm and gamify the climb then you can theoretically cheat your way to the top

We all saw what happened when different factors outside of win/loss caused strange behaviors in those who wanted to cheat their climb.

A prime example, is 5 stacking norms with high mmr, dodging in promos and whatever "mmr hacking" league players came up with through the years.

A separate fear is if an algorithm uses performance to dictate your mmr/lp, then certain playstyles/role/off meta champs may be unfairly impacted because it is different from the standard performance. This may unintentionally cause for a less diversification in the league playerbase.

[inner ether]

What they mentioned about trueskill v2 by another reddit thread was that it would still just be based on Winrate, but the adjustments from Trueskill were to get smurfs and boosted players out of the ranks they don't belong in. Basically nothing to do with performance-based LP gains (unless someone can quantify qualitative data into performance score without losing any nuance towards gameplay like Baus and Adys had), but more to do with increasing MMR accuracy, which may affect LP, but not nearly as much as performanced based gameplay.

[fast comet]

What? That is not how trueskill 2 works at all lol. Wins/Losses are still the most important factor. Riot gets to look at various data in regards to performance from millions of matches that has higher probability of winning. It is honestly one of if not the best ranking system.

[fast comet]

Wins/Losses are the most important factor but you are factoring perfomance based of millions of matches of data that Riot looks at. So it wont just be KDA.

[opal grail]

That's literally what I said?

[fast comet]

How can you cheat the climb then lol? Ur examples have literally nothing to do with true skill lol....

I can tell no one here has ever played a game with true skill 2 ranking system

[opal grail]

My examples were to show times when league players cheated the system because of changes made to the system not to show how to cheat true skill 2. By implementing TS2, there will likely be unintended consequences as every change before it.

[fast comet]

What? How can you abuse win/losses and performance... That is all on the player lol..... It is way better than the current MMR system where people just make a fresh account to climb (or people getting made at a losers que)

[opal grail]

You seem pretty confident there won't be any unintended consequences. Is there a reason for such confidence?

[fast comet]

How would you abuse that though? Like how do you abuse wins/losses/and performance?

Its actually amazing because Riot evaluates everything into ranking up now.

[opaque grove]

The only variable that actually matters is did you win or lose? Everything else is just noise, and will become irrelevant to your ranking if you simply play enough games of ranked in a split so that the RNG of teammates and enemies averages out. Trying to use other metrics to measure how good someone performs will inevitably fail in some corner cases.

[fast comet]

I completely disagree. With the current MMR system it is terrible in every regard. Atm it is much easier to climb a fresh account that an account where the MMR has leveled out. With True skill 2 there will be no excuses at all anymore and it will place smurfs into their appropriate ranks much faster. Performance always matters in any game you play and the beauty with True Skill 2 is that it factors multiple stats as well. Riot can choose how they classify which stats are most important by analyzing the millions of matches they have to determine which stats are more likely to win games as well. Its a win/win for everyone tbh.

[inner ether]

You keep saying this without understanding what stats and what nuances there are to winning. It's a loss for trying to play outside the box like Ady did. Instead of constantly generalizing that there are more numbers to consider, try to think about what edge cases (which there are a handful) it wouldn't ever be accurate for without making an arbitrary line for what constitutes as carrying and what constitutes as team play.

You also keep talking about fresh account climbing as if it's an issue for MMR? I don't get why you keep talking about that. New accounts get placed at most gold 4 and your MMR is the same as if you're climbing with an older account with the same winrate at the same rank.

Losers Queue also isn't a thing.

[spring yacht]

i have a hot take

ksante isnt broken

[vague arch]

he's my favorite champ to watch good clips of

flashy as fuck

[hoary relic]

bcs he takes skill, so he is bad in low elo and broken in high elo and pro play where he is played to the highest level.

[spring yacht]

i have some skill expression and he still sucks

[fast comet]

What? You are completely confused here. I will link you a video that explains the system because I don't think you know how true skill 2 works. And yes you can factor in stats since there is definitely correlation between performance and winning/losing games that is just a factual statement lol. Also yes 100% climbing a new account with fresh MMR is much easier than an existing account in which the MMR levels out that is literally just factual since your gains will now be terrible. People constantly do this all the time especially streamers who are doing challenges.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GedzkYVOzM

[opal grail]

Good take

[echo bolt]

I deserve Challenger, but Challenger doest deserve me

[opal grail]

I'm curious, what performance metrics should be analyzed?

[fast comet]

Everything that contributes to winning

Riot already has all the data and a great system that keeps track of multiple stats

[opal grail]

Can you explain what they are?

[fast comet]

? When you look at ur match history lol

They already have a grading system lol....

[opal grail]

Do you know how easy it is to cheat the grading system?

[fast comet]

what? It doesnt have to be what riot currently calculates in the grading system

[opal grail]

We all can agree Riot collects a lot of data, but how are we confident that Riot can accurately judge what metrics are contributing to wins?

The grading system is def not the answer because of how faulty it is

[fast comet]

because it is very easy lol.... Riot looks at stats that most likely lead to wins lol.....

[opal grail]

So this data is some magical number that only Riot knows, right?

[fast comet]

No its a number looking at actual data lol....

[opal grail]

But we have no idea what the data is

[fast comet]

Makes it even better if we dont know

That way you cant abuse it like you said lol

[opal grail]

So you agree it can be abusable?

Well that wraps up my argument lmfao

[fast comet]

Dam you clearly you lack reading comprehension

its ok

[opal grail]

If knowing what metrics are being measured leads to abuse, maybe we shouldn't use such an abusable metric?

[fast comet]

Well first of all in true skill 2 we dont know what metrics Riot is weighing the most if you actually watched the video

Second if we can all abuse performance then we would all be challenger lol...

[opal grail]

Sure, if you don't think those metrics will never be discovered by the player base then there's no need to continue this discussion.

[fast comet]

What?

Watch the video please

Then respond

[opal grail]

I already did

[fast comet]

Then why are you asking these questions that are already answered?

[opal grail]

Because your take is directly counter to what theScore has said

I'm literally repeating what the video said

[fast comet]

In what way explain?

[opal grail]

This is literally what was basically said in the video

[fast comet]

Watch the full video

[opal grail]

And the fact that you didn't realize it was is weird

Do you need me to timestamp it?

[fast comet]

Yes and look what he says after my guy....

[opal grail]

After is a quote a rioter about why performance metrics probably won't be introduced into the game

[fast comet]

Exactly they are looking to explore other factors

[opal grail]

Which only supports my argument...

[fast comet]

Which states that if there were metrics that affect wins/losses after Riot does the research they will experiment with it

I never said Riot was going to implement it to begin with I said it is something they are suggesting

Personally i want them to implement it which is why people consider it controversial

Which is literally the whole point of the entire question brought up here lol.....

[opal grail]

Chat am I being baited?

[trim crystal]

people consider it controversial because any system they cook can and will be dissected and exploted eventually, with players suffering from either oddball games/strategies, or getting shafted unintentionally by the system

[fast comet]

People are such trolls lol

The current rank system is even more obscure lol...

We dont even know what our MMR is lol

[trim crystal]

isn't the current system just the usual MMR system with a sprinkle of historical data bias

which is why people keep saying they get permastuck, because system basically softlocks itself into thinking they're right where they should be, and idk, thinks their recent bout of wins is only temporary based on their mmr history or something

[fast comet]

One of if not the biggest complaints in League is about the ranking system

Whether its smurfs, coinflips, MMR/LP gains, etc...

Which is Riot is looking to experiment with new ranking system

[trim crystal]

smurfs won't get fixed by altering the rank system

[fast comet]

True Skill 2 can help alot with it

Much better than the current system

[trim crystal]

mmr/lp gains/losses should be able to be dealt with by tuning the existing system

[fast comet]

In what way just curious?

[trim crystal]

fuck if i know lol

[fast comet]

Its hard to tune MMR tbh

[trim crystal]

anyway, is there a proper writeup of what trueskill2 does?

none of the medial/PR mumbojumbo, just plain info

[fast comet]

Yeah there is a 20 page document that is pretty complicated but the video i posted simplifies it a bit

[opal grail]

He's gonna just say "watch the video"

[trim crystal]

well give me the document then

[fast comet]

ok

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/2018/03/trueskill2.pdf

[trim crystal]

nice, i'll read that along the day. any similar doc for existing mmr system in league?

[fast comet]

That I wouldnt know

But it is basically the chess system which works great there since its a 1v1 game

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/paulliu//files/www-2021-elor.pdf

[trim crystal]

so we can only guesss... again, afaik its just the elo/mmr/chess system with a sprinkle of historical data bias

[fast comet]

Actually i found this one

[fast comet]

Yeah Riot has tweaked it a bit thats why

It is not the exact traditional one since Riot has tweaked it alot

[trim crystal]

alright, didn't even finish first page and i can already say this is iffy at best. trueskill seems tailored to shooters, not mobas

[fast comet]

But MMR is the most important factor used in Leagues current ranking system

[fast comet]

Well not really because its based on performance that factors into what is more likely to get a win

In FPS it is KDA in LoL it could be something else

[opal grail]

You literally just said

[opal grail]

@trim crystal

[fast comet]

?

[opal grail]

Riot as of right now has no intentions of adding performance metrics

[fast comet]

I never said they were going to add it though? I said it is something they are considering

[trim crystal]

they can't even get the item tooltip metrics correctly sometimes, and stil don't let us view them on the post-game screen
so yeah, that is ages away from now

[fast comet]

As clearly shown in the comments Rioters have made

[opal grail]

Then don't say this as if Riot is adding performance metrics

[fast comet]

Are you trolling me right now?

Or do you just lack reading comprehension?

[trim crystal]

already planning to add it

[fast comet]

Planning/Looking into/etc.. It is something they never said they were not going to add but they are clearly experimenting with the idea yes or no?

[trim crystal]

planning is not looking into... planning by far suggests it's something they already looked into and want in league

if that's not what you meant, then please choose your wording a little more carefully next time

[fast comet]

It is what Iksar literallly said my guy....

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/18tv4gb/comment/kfy0rat/?embed_host_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportskeeda.com%2Fesports%2Fleague-legends-season-14-new-mmr-trueskill-2-systems-explained

Like how more much do i need to post?

From Iksar himself "We're moving to a different proprietary (riot-made) system at the start of the new year (ish) and then tentatively planning on moving to a new system later in the year called trueskill 2"

I never said it was fully going to happen i am quoting the Rioter word for word lol

[opal grail]

https://x.com/Spideraxe30/status/1742257793480941966?t=f90GkYOfPkdZfnSGVfv35w&s=19

Spideraxe (@Spideraxe30) on X

BarackProbama clarified some info regarding Elo, MMR, LoLMMR, and TrueSkill 2

Twitter · Jan 2, 2024, 6:53 PM

[trim crystal]

you're suggesting they're already planning to implement trueskill2. that is not true, as Iksar back then said they were planning to move to another of their own solutions, and then tentatively planning (aka looking into) trueskill2

[fast comet]

Read the Iksar comment lol

I said what he said lol... Are people just refusing to read lol.....

[trim crystal]

We're still evaluating on trueskill for now but it sounds promising.

[opal grail]

Something @fast comet conveniently keeps on forgetting about

[fast comet]

Now read this part "We're moving to a different proprietary (riot-made) system at the start of the new year (ish) and then tentatively planning on moving to a new system later in the year called trueskill 2"

[opal grail]

Which was also in the video

[fast comet]

yes it further proves what i have been trying to tell you lol

[trim crystal]

they are not PLANNING to implement it, theyare TENTATIVELY planning, aka nothing set in stone, pretty much testing to see if it even sticks to the wall

[opal grail]

^

[trim crystal]

very, very different meanings there

[fast comet]

yes which is why I literally later said Riot was experimenting with the idea lol.....

Initially with Iksar statement he said they were planning/experimenting with the idea which is what I have now repeated multiple times now

[opal grail]

Also you

So confidently proclaiming what Trueskill does 😂

[trim crystal]

fucks sake, did probama delete the post that spideraxe tweeted?

i wanted to get the "paper" link

[fast comet]

yes I was correct thanks for pointing it out

[opal grail]

I don't think so, I saw it back when it was popular (could be wrong)

I would blame Reddits horrible search function then anything

[fast comet]

Also this was my intial comment on this thread "A well implemented performance based ranking system would be the greatest change in the history of ranked. It will fix so many issues such as smurfs, MMR leveling out, trolls,etc..
Wins would still be the most important factor in determing whether or not some climbs the only difference will be the amount someone gains or loses"

Keyword "would"

[opal grail]

I totally agree that's definitely what you said

[fast comet]

Since people are looking at previous comments I made and not looking at everything entirely

[trim crystal]

it might help fix the mmr deadlock some players get, but it absolutely won't fix smurfs and trolls

[fast comet]

I mean I think it can if Riot decides to go with it I would love if they tried it at least

It could even be for a short time period and based off community feedback will decide if they keep it or not

I perosnally would love if Riot factored more performance based matchmaking but again it is all on how Riot decides to implement it

[trim crystal]

The TrueSkill2 model modifies the classic model in the following ways:

1. A player’s latent skill is inferred from their individual statistics such as kill and death
   counts, in addition to team win/loss.
   very bad, leads to anticompetitive and antifun gameplay patterns when players try to abuse the system
   A player’s skill in a game mode is assumed statistically correlated with their skill in other
   modes, so that when a player starts a new mode, their skill rating from other modes is
   borrowed.
   as long as SBMM is kept out of non-ranked modes, this should be fine (and i think riot already does that, with normals mmr affecting your ranked mmr to some degree)
   When a player is part of a squad, their performance is assumed to be better than normal.
   Already done in the existing system. Duoing will typically put you up against higher ranked enemies.

Coming back to point 1 - trueskill2 can work in league but the biggest hurdle is figuring out what metrics to use, how to weight them, and how to detect and smother any kind of potential system abuse

[fast comet]

That is where what BarackProbama says Riot themselves would have to look at the data of the millions of matches being played in league to deterimine which stats are more likely to lead to wins

In FPS it would be KDA in LoL it could be a combination of everything where Riot could weight it appriopriately

[opal grail]

2 and 3 are already being implemented

[trim crystal]

biggest issue with that paper i see is that it pretty much only mentions analyses and data from shooters, where everyone is pretty much equal in strength at all times (varying with gun choice and pickups, the latter being skill-based). League has 10 champions with vastly different roles, capabilities and gameplans, plus actual objectives other than "kill everyone" or CTF

[opal grail]

1 is very uncertain on wether or not it will be added

The only benefits of TS2 is faster seeding for new accounts

[fast comet]

I have a question do you think there is a direct correlation between performance in any game and wins/losses?

[trim crystal]

KDA - absolutely not. just look at Baus hitting challenger with what most people would say is iron kda

[fast comet]

Yes but does he not have high CSPM,objectives etc...?

Is that not performance?

[trim crystal]

cs/m metric is dangerous, could lead to people avoiding fights altogether in order to farm their mmr gains

[fast comet]

Same in Halo you could have a terrible KDA but if you got alot of objectives your performance would still be great

[opal grail]

And what about the other challenger Sion players who does not like play Baus?

[fast comet]

You weight it accordingly

[opal grail]

Performance on League is individual based, not every champ has one play style.

[trim crystal]

oh, so we should have different weights for every champ? every role?

[fast comet]

You would look at the current matches being played atm but remember wins/losses is still the most important factor because you would still lose LP for losses and Gain Lp for wins

The only difference would be the amount someone gains or loses

[trim crystal]

i'm aware of that. we're talking about the metrics potentially affecting the outcome.

[fast comet]

Yes Riot has all the data and as they stated if they see a factor that was highly predicitve of what leads to wins they would factor that in

[trim crystal]

cs/m or kda metrics affecting final lp change would lead to players who are behind to possibly just avoid any fights altogether, and trying to splitpush in order to minimize their loss at the expense of their team's chances to win due to them not grouping up, helping with objective fights etc

[fast comet]

Also i disagree there is a correlation between performance and wins/losses

[fast comet]

Well Riot doesnt have to give the full breakdown in what they are factoring

[opal grail]

There is literally 0 performance metrics that will always directly correlate to win/loss

[fast comet]

Which they likely wouldnt

[opal grail]

Every performance metrics is uniquely game dependant