Strongest level 6 power spike for all roles? Most impactful ult and least impactful. Explain why🤝

[lapis galleon]

Opinions are fine but if you want to back it up with facts you can do that too. Just want to see everyone’s take or thoughts on this.🐸
————————————————————-🙏

[digital dust]

I would say Kayle for strongest maybe ?

[silent lava]

qiyana. AOE stun and lets her 100-0 people

[haughty mesa]

ksante is definitely up there for top lane. you have to afk your early because of your high mana cost and awful damage. 6 is a powerspike that turns you from a wave catcher at your tower into a scary duellist with high kill potential, if not (far) behind of course

[graceful badge]

Kennen for top, or darius.
Jg nocturne.
Mid prob qiyana
Adc nilah
Sup maokai prob

[cloud bloom]

Top: Rumble or Ksante
Jgl: Sej, Vi, maybe Kindred
Mid: Tf, Ryze, Azir
ADC: Lucian, Kalista
Support: Alistar, Blitz (only vs shield enchanter), Bard, Renata, Nami

Rumble and Ksante have an Ult that allows them to get advantages or at least even out disadvantages, eg a rumble that hasn’t manipulated the wave properly can still ult it to fix the wave, or to get the cs and exp while being out of the thread range of a gank or all in etc, ksante can do that too by being able to turn around fights or just win cos they blow all of their damage into his tank form and he just turns on them with his damage form

Sej and Vi get so much value out of their R cos they do the same stuff differently but effectively, Sej gets a non commital engage, meaning her R can be used as an engage and whatever happens next is up to her and her team, if it hits a tank then they can decide not to fight whereas if it hits a damage dealer it’s pretty much a guaranteed win, plus the slowing zone will just be a nuisance to deal with no matter what she hits, if it’s positive the slow allows for more time to follow up on the stun, if it’s negative the slow prevents the enemy team from following up quickly. Vi is the opposite but has more guaranteed value cos of it, she has to go all in but can choose the target, offering an easy engage with easy follow up if you do it properly and your team is there, plus it’s an unstoppable knock up which is quite literally the best cc cos there is nothing but Zhonyas and Tahm/Bard R that can prevent it from happening besides you dying. Kindred R is quite the opposite but still allows her to play the game differently since it can potentially prevent all of her team from dying, yet it also affect enemies, that’s why it’s conditional but if used properly it’s one of the best

TF and Ryze have the same thing going for them with their lvl 6 spike which is map mobility and map impact, which is why they are so strong over all, plus Ryze gets bonus damage on his e q which is needed cos unlike tf he doesn’t have the early wave clear to make good use out of it. Azir’s R being so high on the list is actually due to his overall kit and how much value in both offence and defense it provides, sure the damage isn’t the highest but the utility of it is why it’s so good

Well, for ADCs, their lvl 6 spike isn’t always due to spells being good, but what they actually get, if we talk about raw damage then sure a cait or mf or Samira have better Ults and Cait even gets a better passive, but they all have those abilities tied to a condition, like standing still for Cait and MF or having to have an S for Samira, Lucian just straight up has a nuke on his R while keeping his mobility and Kalista R has just so much utility in one ability that it doesn’t even need to deal damage, it’s a good engage, disengage, peele tool, follow up, etc that the value and spike you have with this ability is just insane. Varus and Ashe would probably also qualify for this segment of just being good utility but they have the huge draw back of being countered by Cleanse which isn’t true for Kalista cos it’s a knock up and unlike nilah, kalista herself isn’t in danger for the most parts, like she should walk up and auto the targets, but if it isn’t advantageous she can just decide not to, while also giving her support a way out of danger if they ever are in danger

As for support, well, all of their kit revolves around lvl 1-3 and lvl 6, lvl 6 and maybe their first item are their biggest spikes in the game, excluding Senna but Senna is more or less an ADC that just happens to not farm cos it’s more advantageous for her, so virtually every support has a strong R, yet the champs I chose have more going for them than other supports. Alistar’s R is hands down one of the most op abilities in the game, so he’s pushed to being a tank so that his R doesn’t become broken, you will see how broken it really is if you ever get to play against a sylas with alistar R. Bard, Renata and Nami are all on the same level of being semi long distance disengage and conditionally engage, zone or catch tools. For Blitzcrack his R just seems like a random silence with a bit of damage, however, if you play against a Yuumi, lulu or Karma his R becomes one of the most OP shit ever, cos you simply destroy their shields which means for Karma and Lulu that a huge portion of their peele is gone just cos blitz pressed R, which is why I added this as explanation already in my list

[muted pebble]

Midlane Zed > Qiyana.
However, in terms of spike, as in difference between pre6 and 6, Kayle, Fiddlesticks, and Kassadin have to be in the top 5.

They go from being a cannon minion to a champion at level 6

[graceful badge]

Nilah spikes harder at six than kallista varus ashe and lucian do. She always gets 6 first and can just freeze and all in you on 6. Nilah's w lasts long enough to keep her alive during the engage and her r guarantees a winning fight at lvl 6 vs lvl 5 unless your support follows late + they flash ur r.

If you are on a bad base ashe can maybe kite you at even 6 if she rushed boots and you don't have a good support, but for the most part nilah wins 6 vs her. Lucian can just have his r stopped by nilah r and Varus/Kallista just lose 6 to nilah

[safe magnet]

Twitch

[lime token]

Top lane: Boils down to Darius/Yorick/Trynd

Jungle: In terms of impacting lanes and overall jungle presence it's Nocturne. In terms of the champion itself, that is a hard one. Ekko gets a strong power spike at 6, Diana gets a strong power spike at 6, Eve gets a strong power spike at 6. Just way too many junglers that get a large chunk of value for hitting 6.

Mid lane: Zed for sure. You have to adjust your play style as soon as he hits 6 or you die.

ADC: Yasuo but for actual ADC marksmen I guess it would be Vayne. Good Vaynes are very hard to stop.

Support: No doubt about it it's Lulu

[stoic prairie]

I'm gonna say amumu if his flash is up

[grand mirage]

Vayne's not terribly reliant on her ult tbh, like it's a good ult but it's hardly a requirement for her to impact a fight. If you want an actual marksman whose ult is a big powerspike, Kalista is probably top of that list. Her ult is basically a Tahm W+R or Ashe ult+ on one ability.

[cloud bloom]

You see, in a role that’s centred around range the fact that she and her r are both melee just means that against good players she won’t have that much of an impact, especially cos they can just deny her all of her strengths by freezing the wave in their favour and just auto and spell trading her when she walks up to get cs

[graceful badge]

Nilah just freezes and hits lvl 6 first. She can g uarantee getting on u with double e basically. If she has enchanter support she loses, but with engage / a dmg sup she is much stronger lvl 6 than basically every adc lvl 6 apart from mayb xayah

[cloud bloom]

This just won’t happen, cos the side with the range advantage can always control the wave state in bot lane

[graceful badge]

You have not seen a typical nilah lane

[cloud bloom]

So there is no world in which a competent bot lane gets overrun by Nilah in lane

[cloud bloom]

I have seen Nilah Senna in pro play and if it wasn’t for Keria being a good player the game would have been over minute 3:30

[graceful badge]

Yeah the typical soloq nilah lane will just be her freezing for lvl 6 and just getting a double kill. The only real time to punish nilah is her weak lvl 1 since if she ever engages on you you trade sums but nilah and her sup trade more hp in the end which doesn't allow nilah to all in lvl2/3 which is where nilah likes to all in

Nilah always reaches lvl 6 in an even / slightly losing lane before the enemy.

You can watch any high elo nilah otp explain the same thing of why nilah is so strong in lane with a non enchanter sup

[cloud bloom]

Again that’s just not how I’d play the lane at all, depending on if I am ADC or Supp I either lock in Varus or Ashe and just zone her off the wave levels 1-3 to have a bounce towards my turret for the rest of the lane, an enchanter can’t punish that and if Nilah tries punishing it there is nothing stoping me from ghosting or healing to disengage

And if they decide to draft an engage support vs Varus or Ashe they are already doomed, it’s the entire idea of those Adcs, you simply poke out enemies and with no real sustain compared to the poke it’s just over

But again all you have to do is to use your brain and have a firm grasp of how to freeze a wave, doesn’t matter if you lose heal or ghost for it, if the enemy Nilah is underleveled, has no farm and no kills it’s worth it

[grand mirage]

It always happens because Nilah's passive gives reduced xp loss from duo laning, so unless you're actually managed to zone her and her sup off of even xp (range for that is pretty generous) they will hit 6 before you.

[cloud bloom]

No bro cos you only get the bonus exp for last hitting on Nilah so you don’t hit it earlier if the enemy zones you off of farm

[grand mirage]

even good zoning will still result in them getting some CS, which means they will still end ahead on level timings.

[cloud bloom]

Not it doesn’t, they will if they get jungle help but otherwise it will just be an eternal freeze, think of top lane where you as a melee have to play against a ranged champ and the range champ gets a freeze, you either risk dying to break that freeze or just bleed cs, Nilah vs double ranged is the same, just that the one ranged champ that pokes you has a second one that either pokes with them or heals/shields them up

[graceful badge]

Pick varus or Ashe into me with me having an engage support and I can guarantee you you will lose lane. The only thing u can do is zone me off first 3 melees. I still hit 6 first regardless and kill u on lvl 3 when u attempt to crash.

The only way u win is if you have a good disengage support

Nilahs w allows her to block varus stacking blight and makes ashe unable to get her passive slow unless she has w for those 2.25s

[grand mirage]

You still get some CS in that scenario, if they're so aggressive that they're permakeeping you off CS, they won't be able to also maintain the freeze, and lets not forget that Nilah has pretty good waveclear. So it's hard to even pull a freeze against her if she properly manages the wave (e.g. after the bounce, she slow pushes into hard shove at right time).

[delicate monolith]

Nocturne

[cloud bloom]

The idea is not to pick Varus or Ashe it’s to pick Varus and Ashe and since you play two melee champs the Ashe can go barrier and I can play heal on Varus, what happens is that we chunk you out on level one so that you can’t walk up to get the cs, we always win the trade cos of the sums advantage and we can always last hit and decide the pace of the lane

[cloud bloom]

Yes but in any case you are a Nilah that’s down in cs, maybe even in exp but it’s still a Nilah, she needs to get ahead, and even if it’s just a 20cs lead that’s probably enough for her to be useless against certain comps

[wary grotto]

do i not see anyone saying eve???

[grand mirage]

I forgot that her passive stealth doesn't come online till she hits 6, so yea that's a huge powerspike for her even beyond her R being a good finisher

[graceful badge]

Eve was said

[graceful badge]

You will make nilah struggle for the first few levels, but once she hits 6 she will just be too hard to control as ashe is a terrible support into nilah apart from like lvl 1-2 lmao

Sup ashe cannot kite like adc ashe and is a terrible pick because nilah just takes cleanse and the only way she dies is if she tanks both r's and gets kited which ashe can't really do since she is sup

The only adc really able to match Nilah is mf and xayah and mf is only able to be because she is very broken and her r goes through nilah w. Xayah's feathers still cast through nilah w and she gets an easy root since nilahs engage is telegraphed

At the end of the day it doesn't depend on the adc pick as well. Nilah is the most support locked adc in the game so if her sup picks a bad champ like millio or the sup just sucks then Nilah cannot do anything in lane other than sack and try to farm

[cloud bloom]

No but the idea is to never be in a range so that Nilah can engage you, double HOB Varys Ashe bot lane, short trades around HOB and except for that you simply poke and on level 1 you actively trade sums for hp, as in your Simms for their hp, Nilah’s engage range is only 550 per dash, so unless you have never played against yasuo so that you actively try to trade her next to your minions you aren’t in any threat, Varus has 575 range, Ashe 600, and Ashe is the one that walks up to trade so it’s not even close

[graceful badge]

Double hob would be literally useless after lane lmao

Most of the time nilah uses her first dash as a gapcloser and if you're at that 550 range it will hit you and nilah will just aa q e aa again and ult you and you either flash or you die

But still your argument does not matter at all because it is SOLELY reliant on the support nilah has.

Nilah has engage sup -> u lose lane. Nilah has enchanter -> nilah plays for scale and u get to bully

[cloud bloom]

Yeah but the champs you drafted aren’t

[cloud bloom]

Not really, melee supps can’t play vs double adc bot lane

[graceful badge]

We dont leash. We get push we crash lvl 2 with our prio (if you walk up u just die 0 counterplay) and we freeze?

Nilah can also abuse dshield 2nd wind cuz shes melee :)

You also need to remember that Nilah will hit 6 first unless you somehow manage to either zone her off an entire wave of xp or kill her and she has a bad wave state

[cloud bloom]

Depends on what melee supp, and if you try doing that you just lose cos you get kites to oblivion

[graceful badge]

How do you kite when ur lvl 1 vs a lvl 2 nilah

You'll just be one shot right under ur turret. I've played this lane multiple times vs double poke with an engage support. If my support has 2 hands we just hardstomp lane

Had a similar lane yesterday as nilah pyke vs kaisa senna. I killed both of them lvl 2 and me and pyke both died to senna. Come back to lane and kill both of them again as the wave crashes on our turret

[cloud bloom]

That’s cos of two reasons:

1. Kaisa Senna is absolutely terrible
2. They mismanaged the wave

[cloud bloom]

Well let’s say it’s nilah plus whatever melee supp vs Varus Ashe where Ashe has heal or barrier and HOB and Varus has ghost or heal and HOB, it’s legit as simple as both of them open the trade with HOB and then once the trade goes long enough you just use heal and ghost or heal and barrier to extend it for the 2nd HOB trade and that’s it

You just win cos nilah and her supp have like 10-15% hp and you have like 30-40% and more potions and more poke

And the reason Varus Ashe can do that and not Kaisa Senna is that Kaisa has no range compared to Varus and Senna has no attack speed compared to Ashe, those are 2 things you can’t change with runes

Cos Senna can’t take HOB and there is no rune giving you 50 range, cos those 50 range determine whether you can safely place an auto and dodge the Pyke q or not

[graceful badge]

Have you played this lane multiple times or not?

I have and I know how it goes. You're arguing over a shit take that literaly doesn't even matter because it's solely decided on nilahs support and nilahs supports skill.

Senna is MUCH better versus nilah than ashe is btw. And kaisa is much more useful than varus is vs nilah as well. Senna is nilahs worst champ to play vs because she is able to safely poke you the whole lane and if you ever engage she just e's u

Ashe and varus have 0 cc early and rely on auto attacks -> nilah presses w and what do u do

But yet again. It solely depends on nilahs support. Nilah is locked by her supports skill level in lane more than any other adc due to nilah having 350 auto range.

[cloud bloom]

You just run away, wait til her w is in cd and trade afterwards

[cloud bloom]

Not really, a good support will just try their best to carry the lane cos nilah isn’t able to against 2 Adcs especially with 2 that are lane bullies like Ashe and Varus, but that’s about it, if the Ashe and the Varus have hands and know how to properly space, side step and poke you just hard win

[grand mirage]

I think it's time you tested your hypothesis, get a friend who knows how to play ashe or varus and let svor get a good engage support, and test the 2v2 out yourselves. At some point, actually trying it on the rift is the best way to really figure stuff out.

[graceful badge]

The issue is is that it depends on how good nilahs support is. if you take all 4 players being diamond, it'll be like a 55% of the time a winning lane for nilah and her support. the other 45% would be losing

Nilah is able to play sustain in lane with dshield 2nd wind and play for engage when they misstep. That's her primary way to play actually is just punishing enemies misstepping.

[grand mirage]

Hence why I'm suggesting you get a support you trust and test this matchup

[graceful badge]

I've played it quite a few times with double poke botlanes vs nilah + engage support

[grand mirage]

The Rift itself is the best place to 'beat the truth bodily' into people

[graceful badge]

It quite literally just comes down to how nilah's support plays

[grand mirage]

Again, why I suggested you get a support you trust.

[graceful badge]

I'm not coping when saying this it's just nilah is incredibly support locked in lane due to her range and kit

[graceful badge]

I don't have a support I trust lmao. All of the high elo sups I know play enchanters like janna

[grand mirage]

XD fair

[graceful badge]

I am a certified janna hater

[cloud bloom]

Or you watch Worlds 2023 Quaters T1 vs LNG, it’s legit the last series of worlds where you see melee engage supps drafted against T1, except for Game 1 of T1 vs JDG and there JDG got fisted, which happened to LNG as well btw, just that they got fisted for 3 games straight. T1 themselves picked Nilah once but paired her with Senna, to not run into the problem of having 2 melees in bot lane and even there T1’s bot lane wasn’t allowed to play at all against Kai sa Blitz, they won that game cos top side smurfed. I mean sure we can 2v2 that lane for sure, all I am saying is that pro play and experience does benefit the double ranged bot lane, especially vs 2 melees

[orchid dune]

The most impactful ult in the game is Malphite. You cannot cc him out of it, and it's an AoE knockup that can potentially nuke one champion (AP build), and at the very least disrupt a team's formation for an engage.

The least impactful is probably Vayne's ult. Her power comes from her successive autos onto the same target, and her Condemn knockback/stun. Her ult is a steroid, but she can carry without using R at all.

[fathom nova]

zed 6 mid

[agile pagoda]

Fiddlesticks

all of a sudden his ganks are crack-head death sentences for the enemy team

[graceful badge]

Soloq != pro play with perfect communication.

Also senna is counterpicked by blitz.

[cloud bloom]

I like to compare strengths of champs at nearly 100% accuracy cos that way skill doesn’t matter

[graceful badge]

senna was picked to help nilah drainktank the lane the casters even said it themselves agreeing with that

[cloud bloom]

At nearly 100% accuracy you can’t say “Blitz played bad” etc

[graceful badge]

Everyone can always player better?

Scout got his flash forced lvl 2 -> he played bad early

[cloud bloom]

No Senna was picked cos she would stabilise the lane and help with the wave cos she’s is a range adc, now imagine any support that isn’t senna or any other adc as supp and play the lane again, it’s just not even close

[graceful badge]

She has range to help nilah safely scale through lane. Nilah doesn't get to play how she wants in this lane and just farms. She draintanks any poke from kaisa

[cloud bloom]

Not really it’s always a question of relative value, if you get your flash forced early it means cos the enemy did smth that wasn’t predictable which means it probably wasn’t a good call if you anticipated it, which you can’t that’s why it’s well played from the enemy team not bad from scout

[graceful badge]

In Soloq kaisa blitz would win this cuz blitz in soloq is good

[graceful badge]

Scout walked into the river when being pushed in lvl2 to try and dodge orianna qw lvl2 as azir? He got his flash forced and chunked down to 20% hp for 20% of oriannas hp.

Your logic of 'this wasn't a bad play, but a good play on the enemy's part' isn't valid since its just circular logic

[cloud bloom]

No in soloq blitz Kaisa would win cos soloq players only think about kills and kills and then obj, they care about wave states but not to the same extent as pro players, meaning they won’t do what pro players do cos they don’t think 3-4 minutes ahead

[graceful badge]

I mean in soloq blitz will just get free hooks and nilah will play more aggro in this lane trying to get a lead to carry

[cloud bloom]

No that’s is just well read by the ori, she knows azir doesn’t have the move speed to side step her qw without reaching river, this isn’t circular logic that’s just how it is, scout has to make a bad decision no matter what, so it’s probably the right call to get your flash taken rather than your life or having a non prio kid for 5 minutes

[cloud bloom]

Yeah as I said they don’t play with a brain past minute 5

[faint hazel]

Eve literally gets perma stealth from 6

[cloud bloom]

Which is completely useless if you have proper game sense and knowledge

[wispy ginkgo]

rengar 6 spike much more impactful than nocturne, rengar is barely a champ before 6 and after hes turbo strong whereas noc is fine in early lvls

[graceful badge]

The only thing rengar gains at lvl 6 in combat power is to be able to gank mid. Rengar actually loses potency at lvl 6 since other champions have better ults.

It is only a powerspike when its in jg since its easier to gank, but nocturne is literally the same thing but blinds the entire enemy team

[grand mirage]

Good evelynns know to rule-break on purpose precisely because you won't actually know if she's trying that or not.

[cloud bloom]

Yeah but that’s just inefficient then and you can punish it otherwise, like if she potentially gains let’s say 600 gold for smth that breaks the rules like a gank bot even tho no camps are up and she’s just been there to take a flash, that’s not worth it if the enemy gets 700 gold in return by let’s say taking her top side and void grubs/herald plus with both of these objectives you also gain something that’s much more worth than a kill, which is either some dot on turrets and the ability to spawn your own void mites or a herald, vice versa if she tanks top, it’s just not worth it if the enemy at least anticipates it

And even if she isn’t rule breaking this just means that she’s predictable enough for you to capitalise

[grand mirage]

Good Evelynn's aren't predictable intentionally. Heck even on other champs I often use different routes than standard ones for specific reasons (a favorite of mine since first drag>first void grubs is to do reverse route where I start top side instead just so that I am transitioning to bot side with camps up around 5:30 or so (so unless they try and just take it as soon as it spawns, enemy jg doing standard route has to either force it or trade void grubs for me getting dragon and I usually go ward the dragon as soon as I'm bot side so I can punish them trying to sneak it). It's been working great

[wispy ginkgo]

Its much easier for nocturne to close on someone pre 6 than rengar

Rengars only option apart from walking at you pre 6 is to lane gank

Nocturne can actually come in, he has q ms to close

[graceful badge]

If you are ganking mid on rengar you are inting.

[wispy ginkgo]

Im talking about ganking sidelanes

[graceful badge]

He has an extremely potent gank in sidelanes with inlane ganks

The only thing rengar can't do pre6 vs nocturne is gank mid

[wispy ginkgo]

Thats situational and dependent on the waves though

[graceful badge]

Rengar also doesn't really abuse his strong earlygame anymore as a lot of rengars just power farm for 2 items and go funny sclaing hubris moment

[cloud bloom]

Yeah cos your enemies don’t have a fundamental understanding of the game or don’t know what early deep wards are, like idc who I am jungling against I always get my yellow trinket on their jungle side to spot them, then full clear into deep warding the other side, that’s it, that’s all you have to do to punish your strategy

[graceful badge]

Sweeper exists

[wispy ginkgo]

I mean if rengar could consistently get early kills he would just be the best jungler in the game

Not even really close

[graceful badge]

I mean his old playstyle was to abuse his early game because he fell off very hard lategame so he would perma invade?

[cloud bloom]

Yeah but you can see that someone sweeps on the mini map

[graceful badge]

You are realistically not going to have her jg perma warded. After 6 you will only know where evelyn is when she shows up somewhere and you know her pathing for the next few minutes but she could always just cheese gank

Thats why eve is so hated cuz she doesn't have to play the game normally and she doesnt need to farm

[wispy ginkgo]

Yeah people invaded because you couldnt be very consistently proactive when it came to early ganks just because hes poor when it comes to those as a champ, like in terms of normal ganking pre 6 he has worse ganks than graves

[cloud bloom]

Yeah and as I tried explaining, her doing something cheesy isn’t worth it if you at least anticipate it

[graceful badge]

Rengar would just invade or inlane gank and a lot of the time he will be able to find good tempo players to carry off of

[graceful badge]

You cannot anticipate every single play an evelyn will do lmao idk why you keep trynan state that

[wispy ginkgo]

I never disagreed with anything ur saying atm

[graceful badge]

People who play under that logic will sac everything bc eve could be here

[cloud bloom]

No that’s the point you just don’t sac anything but trade it off and yes you can very well anticipate what eve is gonna do, it requires you to have a basic overview over everything but it’s possible and if she doesn’t do what you anticipated then you will at least have gained something as well that’s the whole idea, you don’t sac stuff but trade it and try to spot her as good as you can, don’t fake random fights without proper vision, etc playing against Eve basically only asks whether you have a fundamental understanding of vision and tracking

[grand mirage]

Sure, they're not smart (it's gold mmr after all), but it doesn't change the fact that if they do standard route (bot to top side) and I do reverse that because of when camps were taken, then will run out of respawning camps to take bot side around 5:30 and have to choose between ganking, attempting dragon then, or going top side. I don't even need a ward if I know they did standard route to know this. So I can just wait for them to choose and punish the choice (only time it goes bad is if my bot lane lets them get a good gank and then they have prio to force it, but I can see that coming and at least still trade for grubs.

[grand mirage]

THIS, this is why good Evelynns get results, you either have to play like their always there....or gamble.

[cloud bloom]

But thats not beneficial for an Evelynn, like you are the assassin and yet you trade direct power for long term power, which isn’t good for your champ and all you have to do to fix it is simply using trinkets properly

[cloud bloom]

Or you deep ward her camps to be sure she’s there, or you play TF mid and reveal her, or you do one of 300 other things against Eve and win

[grand mirage]

I didn't say I specifically did this on Eve (though in general, it's the better route than standard atm because the grubs are actually kinda shit unless you get both sets).

[cloud bloom]

And it’s still not a beneficial trade unless you have a very specific type of win condition which is scaling into siege, which is way too difficult for soloq and I doubt that you consciously decided your team comp at all

[grand mirage]

Hence why I prefer reverse route now, it's just better to play for drake 1 (&2 usually) than try for the objective top side in soloque.

[cloud bloom]

What champs?

[grand mirage]

Most junglers in general at this point, it's just the better objective usually, like unless your teamcomp is really good at splitpush pressure (e.g. 1-3-1 comp) grubs ain't that good.

[cloud bloom]

No I meant what champs do you play

[grand mirage]

I play like 100 different champs across all 5 roles.

I was already beginning to thing reverse route was good before the change to grubs because 1st herald spawn time was later than 1st drag, (8:00 if memory serves), so it just lined up the camp timings better to do reverse route at the start.

[graceful badge]

Oh man its super useful being able to see evelyn for 8 seconds every 3 minutes

[graceful badge]

People don't do early drag routes due to how much tempo you lose. As an adc if you are walking to the lvl 4-5 drag you lose too much tempo and the only reason you should be there is if you already shoved wave out

[grand mirage]

I usually just solo it tbh, kinda prefer it that way that early on. Like unless the enemy expects me to do it, they're none the wiser most of the time (bot laners in gold elo rarely ward in front of dragon pit instead of that pixel brush near their lane).

[graceful badge]

No one in gold expects anything

[cloud bloom]

It is if those 8 seconds are in an obj fight

[cloud bloom]

Yeah but it’s not always the most efficient thing to do, sometimes you have to adapt this is what jgl is made for