#Warmog's Armor is an outdated item

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

azure berry
#

According to League of Items, it is the least purchased legendary besides Vigilant Wardstone, an item specifically designed to be a niche and uncommon purchase. The only champ building it more than 5% of the time is Soraka, and that's due to an unintended interaction. No tank, the class who would expect to build this item, does so.
I think it's because it represents an outdated approach to the League of Legends metagame. The current iteration of Warmog's was introduced in patch 5.16. Numbers have been changed, but the effect has not. Back then, League of Legends was much slower than it is today. Unleashed Teleport has a 4 minute cooldown, Homeguard and more sources of MS (both in and out of combat) mean recalling before a late game fight just to restore HP is less punishing, and overall champs do everything faster. Warmog's represents a slower kind of game, one where you will take an extended trade, leaving you with middling health, where you regenerate it back before an objective fight. That doesn't really happen anymore. In the 20 seconds it took to heal (plus 8 out of combat), you could have recalled and (mostly) returned - restoring mana and possibly buying as well. It just doesn't feel like a useful passive. Recent iterations have added more out of combat MS, but to me it's too little.
Is there a way to salvage the item in Season 2024? Am I too doomer on it?

compact aspen
#

Nah item sucks. It’s like meant to be bought against liek poke or as a way to stay healthy without basing. But neither really matters unless an objective is coming up. Not to mention it has no combat value and only giving HP is meh on its own

The new move speed thing they added isn’t that bad. But doesn’t really make it a good buy cuz if you want speed you Have DMP

azure berry
#

My point is that the "stay healthy without basing" situation is simply not a strategy thats as useful as it used to be back in a previous decade

crude tusk
#

big fan of Warmog's in ARAM even tho that probably isn't the target

patent trail
#

I get that most champs can't use it, but is the purpose of items to be usable by every champion?

azure berry
#

The issue is that Warmogs isnt an item who is useful on niche champions, its an item thats useful on 1 champion

#

If there is exactly one champ who uses an item, then it's not a niche item, it's basically a second passive for that champ

patent trail
#

Thoughts on Echos of Helia (built 13k times) who has 7 unqiue champions vs Warmog's (12k times) 11 unique champions with a much lower winrate?

crude tusk
patent trail
#

Legaueofitems

#

If the critieria for an item being outdated is the number of champions that use x item, then many more items should be considered "outdated"

#

I also think there could be an argument about the item not being built often because it's a mid-late game item

#

So an item built for a low econ class won't be built often compared to other items who are built by champs who have the luxury of gold to buy late game situational items

azure berry
#

My point is, even the obvious champs who would want to build the item, dont, and havent for quite a while

patent trail
#

So when would an obvious champ build such an item?

#

probably 4th 5th right?

#

I agree it's an extremely niche item that most champions cant use, but it's not like no one uses it

azure berry
#

I mean according to League of Items, even 4th or 5th its still under 5%

#

The only exception being Soraka, who I dont think should count

patent trail
#

And the reason why that's the case is because tanks almost never have the luxury to be full build

azure berry
#

and by tanks i mean the 3 champs who would in theory make the best use of HP stackin

#

like if an item is an unpopular purchase on the champs who use its stats best, at the point in their build when they want the item the most, then whats the point yknow

patent trail
#

And I don't feel like that's the issue because items are supposed to be dynamic

#

If the item was useless then I would agree that warmogs are useless but let's take Sejuani for example

#

During the late game, in 9% of games Warmogs was a really strong pickup for her

#

By taking away Warmogs, you take away her build diveristy against the niche situations where Warmogs would be useful

#

Just because an item isn't being built often by many champions, doesn't mean that the item is useless

azure berry
#

ok but its being built never by any champions

patent trail
#

In the context against items that are built much more earlier then warmogs

#

A niche lategame item built on a low econ class is going to be picked less then any other item in the game

#

If every game was suddenly played until tanks are allowed to be full build, then the pickrate of warmogs will spike dramatically

azure berry
#

again im not comparing it to early game items

#

im not sure how I can make this more clear: if I am playing a tank, and I make it to my last item, its still vanishingly unlikely I will choose to build Warmogs

patent trail
#

I agree most times you wont buy it

#

But are there 0 cases that you will buy it?

azure berry
#

thats not a good heuristic for deciding whether an item should be in the game

patent trail
#

Why is that?

azure berry
#

theres only 100 or so legendary items in the game

#

that's not enough room to have one which is only useful on 1 in a million games

#

if there is an item which is almost always bad, but is on a very rare occasion not bad, then it's not a meaningful purchase

#

its not a meaningful decision, and I don't think it's good game design for it to be in the game

#

When the best case situation for an item it's still not being bought, something needs to change

#

I think that it could do with a rework of some kind, perhaps there is a way to make it more useful in the modern day

patent trail
#

So your point is

  1. The item is not effective in optimal games
    1a. the reason why you believe this is because of it's 1 in a million usage
fierce tendon
#

Warmogs is niche item only rlly meant for like Mundo Ornn.

#

It's turbo late game item when there's high tick dmg and you want to curve it

crude tusk
#

does ornn even build warmogs

fierce tendon
azure berry
azure berry
fierce tendon
crude tusk
#

5% pickrate 5th item which seems pretty negligible, barely any pickrate before that

azure berry
# fierce tendon Brand dmg

isnt warmogs especially bad into that? you have to be out of combat for 8 seconds before it starts, and Liandrys means that doesnt start until like 10 seconds after he last hits you

patent trail
#

I feel like the reason why you believe that it's suboptimal is somewhat invalid.

First and formost, I feel like just because people are not building warmogs doesn't mean that the item is suboptimal. Warmogs if anything is probably an underutilized item for tanks, because most people are not aware of the item's existence or aware of it's use case.

Secondly, even when looking at pickrate the item isn't being picked vastly less then any other low pr items. If Warmogs is a 1 in million then many other items should be considered 1 in million.

Third, on every single champion that can build Warmogs it is very clear that it's one of the highest if not highest winrate item. If the item is built into the right team comp then the item is proven to be a very strong pickup.

azure berry
#

so between him hitting you and you being full HP is 30 seconds minimum

fierce tendon
azure berry
fierce tendon
#

Si

#

You get more of it so you can outheal the ticks

crude tusk
#

why not just build any MR item and negate the dmg to begin with

fierce tendon
patent trail
azure berry
crude tusk
azure berry
#

get like Spirit Visage or something to that end

patent trail
azure berry
#

as we agree its a very late game item

#

and tanks rarely have enough gold to get to last item

#

so if you have enough gold to afford last item as a tank, you are already ahead in the game

compact aspen
#

Also Warmog bait on raka. Only good against poke comp

patent trail
#

If what you are saying is true then all items built last should have a similar high winrate

#

But when you take a look at Sejuani's last item stats, it becomes clear that Warmogs seems to do much better then any of the other items

azure berry
#

i am looking at Ornn right now, one champ that people claim is supposed to be good with Warmogs last

patent trail
#

My take away from thsi stat is that Warmogs if build in the right scenario is very strong

azure berry
#

He gets better winrate but more pickrate on Thornmail, Jaksho, Abyssal Mask, and Unending Despair

patent trail
azure berry
#

Cho the only one who looks good with it out of all the champs I checked

#

Makes sense since he scales HP the most directly I guess

patent trail
#

Sej and Cho winrates for last item

azure berry
#

So it's a 5th item for Cho and Sejuani in specific

#

Do you actually think that makes it a good item that's worth having in the game to be forgotten but technically very strong on a whole 2 champions?

#

And technically Soraka but I hope you agree with me that she shouldn't count

compact aspen
azure berry
#

I still think item WR is tough to use as a stat but it's complicated and I don't have a better suggestion in this case

patent trail
#

If you were to buff the item, then for those niche scenarios where warmogs are good. warmogs will become broken

azure berry
#

isnt that a bad thing?

patent trail
#

As long as the item has a purpose and is not toxic to the game, it is fine to keep it in the game

azure berry
#

if nobody builds the item, but they cant buff it because then it will be broken, then it's a badly designed item because nobody wants to run it

patent trail
azure berry
#

im not saying we should buff it, im saying we should rework it

patent trail
#

I think there is a much stronger case to rework helia

#

Since the item is very clearly weak and unpopular, but warmogs atleast has it's use case

#

Winter's Approach is another item I think has a much stronger to be reworked/buffed

#

Because from what I've seen so far from what you said, it doesn't seem like you are arguing that warmogs doesn't have cases where it's not useful

#

The argument I'm seeing often (I could be wrong) is that the item is not good because it's not popular

#

But I don't think you have ever argued against my point about warmogs having it's cases where it is good

azure berry
#

The thing is that Helia has been a good item in recent memory

#

Or at least a popular one, while Warmogs has not

azure berry
fading anvil
#

i present to you ornn with warmog clueless

ancient jungle
#

fights arent in and out anymore. they're one and done. warmogs was good for tanks to help burn cooldowns or stay in even after a rough fight. now it doesnt even matter