#Early magic resist itemization on tanks

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rare crow
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saw this post earlier and was kinda confused considering what usually happens in my games: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/17lde7a/armour_vs_mr_riot_got_their_maths_wrong/

i've been trying some tanks recently like ornn, mundo, and ksante and it feels really shitty when i have to delve into MR itemization. sunfire and iceborne feel so insanely strong and components like wardens mail and bramble vest seem bonkers efficiency-wise. whereas when they have even one liandrys user and i build something like force of nature or abyssal mask i still feel super squishy and the utility is severely lacking (especially on ksante with a mostly AD comp). plus not being able to tank tower shots with MR. so even if i rush MR early it feels way worse than just going for sunfire + mythic and just ignoring mages lol.

idk just doesn't seem ideal, what do yall do for early game itemization for tanks into heavy magic dmg? like last game i played ksante into lillia and ate shit until i got my iceborne, even an early negatron cloak doesnt seem helpful half the time.

also on a related sidenote, i miss adaptive helm lol

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sinful ether
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after your first item and boots look to buy a negatron before going for your other item well depends as mundo you'd prolly want spectre's cowl first

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as ornn and ksante id look to buy a negatron cloak before i go for my 2nd item

rare crow
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yeah almost seems like you just wanna stack negatrons lmao

sinful ether
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kinda yeah like fon after nerfs its ok but mask is better if you can run that

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if your team has a few more ap users abyssal mask is really ood

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as ksante fon is probably still better unless you have 3-4 ap in team because you deal physical damage

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but like these are usually 3rd items if urgent and 4th items if not just buy a negatron and keep it in inventory

rare crow
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yeah feels really bad on ksante, might as well just get gargoyles

sinful ether
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that also works

rare crow
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at least mundo works with spirit visage but even then, feels bad to delay mythic and sunfire. i'm always pretty big on finishing important items as quickly as possible cause power spikes make a big difference in top lane

sinful ether
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go mythic unless they are full ap

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you will be laning by the time you end your mythic so

rare crow
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and even if they are full ap, then u still die either way lol

sinful ether
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mercuries first base mythic then negatron/spectres depends on how much ap they have you can go negatron of spectrs before mythic

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but like i wouldnt rush the completed mr item since they don't really boost much against ap champs for the gold you spend

rare crow
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spectres cowl is mostly regen right? wouldnt be finishing that on ksante or ornn so idk

sinful ether
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yh that items specifically for mundo lol

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ornn benefits more from flat mr rather than those extra item passives

rare crow
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yeah bonkers passive, maybe i will just buy 6 negatrons lol

sinful ether
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p sure he has scalings off armor though idk about mr

rare crow
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e scales off both i think

sinful ether
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i never really played ksante but from what people build on him it seems like gargoyles at worst fon

rare crow
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gargoyles synergizes really well with ult, you can get it 2nd if you need it and u still one shot folks lmao

sinful ether
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ksante moment

sinful ether
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the amount of mr you can get is like half of that of your armor except if ur ornn or something like you can't have 1k mr like rammus has 1k armor

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yet mages do more damage with abilities than ad champions do with their ad damage considering 0 armor 0 mr 💀

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i guess thats kinda fair because a mage has to be rewarded for hitting abilities since thats the entire gameplan

rare crow
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not like there arent big ass aoe abilities

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or point and click

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and just getting tagged by random shit and burning to liandrys is the worst, it's always some random support with 1 item at 30 mins doing more than the rest of their team cause of that item

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or support lux with 20 kills in lane and 3 items plus mejais at 20 xd

sinful ether
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playing rammus

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against 4 auto attackers but losing to lux support

lucid solar
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The math for armor and MR and pen is very off, but ironically enough it's on the pen side, especially flat pen, and most magic damage sources are more burst oriented, and so just health alone is already a 'soft' counter.

gaunt shore
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yea mr sucks and is borderline useless anyways

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i just build hp

lucid solar
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As for dealing w/ magic damage against something like a 4-1 AD-AP comp, Gargoyle Stoneplate is an amazing item for this purpose and you also still get 60 Armor alongside the 60 MR on it (and it amps your bonus resists as well), item is a stupidly strong source of resists and imo hugely underrated by most players rn (it's not broken, but it's really good and an amazing 1-item solution to resist needs on champs that have to balance defenses alongside damage in their itemization).

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MR is far from useless, but it's largely unneeded unless enemy has multiple sources of magic damage (or the 1 they have is especially fed/good vrs. tanks)

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Thing is, mages that build right often end up with 44 flat pen on top of void staff's 40% pen, so you need like 180+ total MR before it really starts to gimp their damage (180*0.6=108, then 108-44=64 effective MR).

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This is something you build into later in the game after your max hp is already quite good, since mages have few if any effective answers to health stacking

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For armor, Lethality (flat armor pen) is bad to stack because the amounts you get per item (18 max, excepting some Ornn items) are awfully low. % pen becomes better at just 60 armor if not less if the person buying pen is <level 18 (34.2 at level 1 if memory serves to give you an idea how much that threshold drops with levels) As a result, assassins rn always build 1 Lethality mythic straight into Seralda's because it's just better for dealing with armor than anything else. With base armor already being at like 90+ at level 18 for most champs, even 1 armor item puts into good effective armor territory against most enemies (and non-on-hit ADCs only have maximum access to 18 Lethality from Collector+30% pen from LDR (which also has the hp diff amp, maxing at 25% at you having 2500 more max hp), so armor is a very effective answer to most ADCs). On-hit ADCs are a different story thanks to Guinsoo's mythic passive (another 20% armor pen at full build+access to on-hit magic damage, so they're now much better able to counterbuild your defenses, especially since on-hit can also justify BotRK and it's % current hp damage on-hit effect).

silk wolf
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Just do a normal build path if 4ad-1ap and just throw an anathemas on that ap champ and one shot them with the reduced tenacity, they wont be an issue unless they have hard % dmg

vale tide
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Fon needs a slight buff.
Like - 100g cost and +5 mr.

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And we need a new Good mr item for tanks and Brusiers. Since maw can't be built if you have Steracks.

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Tbh a Mr burn item. Similar to demonic or Sunfire

lucid solar
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We have good MR items, only real issue atm is how good of access AP has to flat pen (entirely reasonsble to be facing 24 flat pen by late laning phase; e.g. Luden's/belt+sorcs) rolling up to 44 by full build, and that's on top of void's good 40% pen (needed as an answer to MR stacking).

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Note that mythic items going away is going to nix 20 of that pen from mythic passives going away, so unless they change MR items to have more access to flat pen, I expect AP to actually get nerfed pretty hard by mythics being removed, even if the underlying items are otherwise unchanged.

rare crow
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yeah not that i think sunfire is a reasonable item but there should be a legitimately good equivalent for mr

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seems like a lot of disparities between ad/ap and armor/mr itemization

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like i keep playing into 80%+ magic dmg teams and i still go mythic + sunfire first without issue which seems silly

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then by the time i get FoN or visage or abyssal it feels like i didnt even buy the damn things lol

vale tide
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By 4-5 legendary items

vale tide
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Fon is shit. And Spirit visage is ehh. Even God dam aatrox doesn't even want to rush it.

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Chemtank exists but legit Dead item.

silk wolf
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you typically just sit on a mantle or a negatron if u need mr but the variety is so mbad

vale tide
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Yah

silk wolf
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Mythic removal is such a good change though

vale tide
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Since every other popular tank item has a good passive. Sunfire burn is amazing for wave clear and does respectful damage during team fights.

silk wolf
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well the whole premesis of bamis is for waveclear

vale tide
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Yah.
Almost Every tank wants it.

silk wolf
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The removal of mythics will add a lot more diversity to most champs build paths apart from maybe tanks

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Super hyped for it since talon finally gets back duskblade ghostblade

vale tide
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Yah
Sunfire. Abysal mask. Stone plate?. If the items don't change that mutch

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The ornn build on every champ.

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Even if you don't have a lot of inate magic damage. Sunfire magic damage burn and grasp will still do a substantial amount.

silk wolf
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kat build gonna go wild

vale tide
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Yah.
Heartsteel ain't probably going to exist or at least major change

silk wolf
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Item should have been gutted/removed ages ago

vale tide
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It's shit on 95% of tanks

silk wolf
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Singlehandedly responsible for botrk damage inflation

vale tide
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Bork was buffed in start of season 12( 10 to 12% current hp) .and only nerfed the healing and magic dammage

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That was 1 season before heart steel.

vale tide
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Shen heart steel is a low to mid elo only. Iceborn or heal bot build is better.

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Also again. There is no Mr anti heal

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If the enemy has a Gwen, Vladamir. Mordikaiser, so on.

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And the fact if There are physical damage healing champs. Your bramble vest doesn't help you survive a Cass, Shyndra, Oriana, brand.

main palm
main palm
vale tide
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No?

rare crow
rare crow
vale tide
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Thats more a meme , but yah

rare crow
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yeah goredrinker is too good but i like the funni noise

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but yeah sunfire does such absurd dmg, like botrk or liandrys tier powerspike

vale tide
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and goredrinker passive is a lot better then Heartsteel

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75 hp > 1% hp

rare crow
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but i wanna be big

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and it's better once u have 7500 hp intent

lucid solar
silk wolf
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Probably the take yyangi is getting at but with less words.

lucid solar
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Sure, Void's never been a rush item, neither is LDR for similar reasons (lack of core stats, item is made of multipliers)

main palm
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Blighting Jewel is the worst component item in the game

silk wolf
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1100g for 20 ad 15 as even after buffs is not the best

lucid solar
vale tide
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It's cheeper, so now it's not a bad choice , especially since it has components

main palm
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Can someone do a gold efficieny check, the item is about a 150 gold cheaper

vale tide
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Void staff is the only % magic pen item

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We can't do a eff check since there is no base Value.
Void staff sets the value of % magic pen

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For armor. Mr. Ad. Ap.hp. Haste
We have base items to calculate the value.
Like long sword. Ruby crystal. Cloth armor. So on

lucid solar
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^ This. btw, we don't actually have a true base item for AH, but there are a number of components with AH+stat for which we do from which we can compute a reasonable average for AH.

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Also trying to use gold eff for multiplier stats is always a bad idea because their value is actually a function of how much of the underlying stats/effects they are amplifying, and by how much.

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That is to say, there is a big difference in RoI between building Blighting Jewel right off the bat (no other items, so the increase here is applied to a very small amount of base magic damage output), versus after 3 items, where including deathcap you can hit 500 AP (now the 13% pen is leveraging all of that 500 AP for a lot of additional damage).

vale tide
vale tide
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Liandres, demonic, void staff.
It hurts a lot.
Even saw a morgana jungle GO Liandres Void staff. She fucking hurt

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Death cap is good. But 1 ability doing 1/4th of your hp as poke is a lot in team fights.

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You don't even need to commit to the combo. Just poke.

lucid solar
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Yea, Void vrs. deathcap is a matter of two things: how much MR do the targets you want to damage have, and how well (or rather not well) does your damage scale with AP.

silk wolf
devout meadow
vale tide
silk wolf