#ADCs Should Outscale Everyone at 2 Items

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

novel goblet
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Saw a post about someone complaining that adcs are outscaling everyone at 2 items is too quick and unfair.

Here's my take, adcs should outscale everyone at 2 items. On average, adcs get their 2nd item at 20 minutes while the the average game in plat ends in 30 minutes. Meaning that adcs are mostly relevant at 33% of the average game.
So if the adcs have to wait until 3+ items then they are looking to become relevant at 24+ minutes, so if you were to push back adc scaling to 3 items adcs will only be relevant for 17% of the game.

raven condor
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You mean 67%.

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“After all adc is the hardest role in the game.”

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👍

forest dust
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This again....: " adcs get their 2nd item at 20 minutes"
I already did the math in the last thread to show that 20 minute 2nd item completion is late. most expensive 2-item ADC build is 7900 gold (maybe add a bit for potions and a D blade in the worst case. Even 400 GPM is 8k at 20 minutes, and 400 GPM is low. Anyone who is good at finding farm should have at least 450 GPM if not more. So 2nd item is more like 16-18 minutes, 3rd item is like not later than 24 minutes or so. Many 3-item ADCs are still pretty impactful at 2 items+some components (and often their 3 items are somewhat cheaper). ADCs are arguably stronger than most other champs at 3-items and it only gets more 1-sided in the favor of ADCs from there.

Moreover, I am assuming ADC doesn't get fed, if they do that time comes down quite a bit and because they never fall off (and in fact, only get stronger in terms of relative power to other archetypes of champion) a fed ADC can quite easily just win the game for their team (why do you think permagank bot lane is such a meta strategy these days?) ADCs taking time to become strong is the counterweight to their fantastic late game. You start letting them reach late game to early and teams will start picking 2-3 marksmen every game because they're just better champions at that point.

novel goblet
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You can just get the actual stats by looking up when adcs get their 2nd item every game

edgy nymph
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legit no point in taking any other class if adcs scales that quickly

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they would be thanos every single game considering how insane their dmg are already at 3 items

gaunt plover
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adc scaling at 2 items is fine it was kinda aids playing adc and u literally did no damage until 4 items(3 item spike was tolerable)

my current issue is that they literally cannot be killed because they are way too tanky or have too much mobility

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if an adc is able to survive a rengar 1 shot combo by himself there is a massive issue without exhaust

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you pair this with a enchanter and like most classes cannot even touch u through sheer stats

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a adc and enchanter can pretty much nulify most threats with a few exceptions

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theres no reason why lucian should be able to have 3 e flash galeforce

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literally adding stridebreaker dash on juggernauts was broken because giving mobility in a class designed to not have mobility was broken

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adc is a class designed to not have mobility and not have good defense options in exchange for the highest damage scaling and consistent damage

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thats why champs like caitlyn and kog are significantly more balance than newet champs like zeri and aphelios

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unless cait has galeforce

full niche
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What would late game even be like 💀
Both adcs would be speedrunning pentakills when at 4+ items

gaunt plover
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they already do that at 2 items thdy just become harder to kill

novel goblet
# edgy nymph legit no point in taking any other class if adcs scales that quickly

I don't think anyone waiting more then 20 minutes to be relevant in a game isn't fair
games are ending on average 30 minutes, so it's not that long of a period
I think people shouldn't be complaining about how unfair it is to be an adc (because it's really not)
But other roles should be buffed to be better in the later stages of the game

edgy nymph
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it seems that he wants to add more power to the bot lane when we are already in a giga hard bot lane meta

gaunt plover
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esp if ur fighting a good adc who isnt stupid and greeds for kills

full niche
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Also kayle and kassadin would become hella irrelevant

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Since they're weaker than adcs early game and would get outscaled

gaunt plover
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adc got damage creeped hard which is fine but needs like their mobility and defense mechanics halved

edgy nymph
gaunt plover
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galeforce needs to be straightup removed
remove movement speed stat on all adc items

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idk why like half of the adc items give u movespeed

novel goblet
gaunt plover
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yes bro

novel goblet
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The champ averages a sub 50 wr

gaunt plover
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no melee champ can ever touch u as lucian come midgame u literally just have to worry about the enemy adc

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winrate literally dosent matter in this context its literally only one group of people van stop a lucian

novel goblet
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It really does tho, Lucian isn't winning any games

gaunt plover
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actually 2 but one of them is literally a class out of meta for like 6 years

edgy nymph
gaunt plover
novel goblet
edgy nymph
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or 3 camp gank bot

gaunt plover
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the thing stopping lucian from running over the game is the enemy adc

novel goblet
gaunt plover
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if u play any melee subclass u either cannot touch them or they dont die

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no im saying that its your job for your adc to stop a lucian if they cant stop a lucian you pm just get steamrolled by him

novel goblet
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So Lucian has a low winrate because every adc in the game can keep him in place, yes or no?

gaunt plover
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idk his winrate

novel goblet
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sub 50%

gaunt plover
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uk why its sub 50?

novel goblet
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because the champ sucks in the current meta

gaunt plover
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adc winrate are sub 50 because adc champs have the highest pickrate out of any champ due to the low champ size as compared to people playing the game

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the more games u have the closer to are to 50%

novel goblet
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How... what...

gaunt plover
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normal distribution

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champs with low playrate have stupidly high or low winrate

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and looks true up until lulu

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and aphelios

novel goblet
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So with normal distribution all champs with a pickrate of 12% will be closer to zero, right?
So what does it mean for a Lucian who has a 48% winrate, doesn't that mean that thanks to normal distribution that Lucian's winrate is being inflated right now?

gaunt plover
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what

novel goblet
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Also you know that's not what normal distribution is, right?

full niche
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High elo lucian wr is above 50%

gaunt plover
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the closer u get to 100% pickrate the more likely it is to be 50%

novel goblet
gaunt plover
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if u have 2% pickrate that can still be a 50% winrate

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thats pm why winrate is a horrible balance measurement

novel goblet
gaunt plover
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yeah

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whats other adc wpickrate in challenger

novel goblet
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Kais 27% pr with 58% wr

gaunt plover
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those two champs are similar in power level i believe

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im not entitely certain on that oen throw another stat

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oh yeah also total amount of games

novel goblet
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How many games is enough?

gaunt plover
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can be infinite games not really sure how we even got to talking about this

novel goblet
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Yeah idk why I'm trying to argue against about how every champion will balance out to a 50% winrate because normal distribution

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When every champion is balanced around their own specific winrate

gaunt plover
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idk why u brought up winrate from me daying lucian cannot be touched by s melee champ

novel goblet
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I'm saying it doesn't matter if you can't touch Lucian because Lucian isn't a broken champ

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Just because a champion counters your champion, doesn't mean that it's automatically broken

gaunt plover
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that champ gets counteted by other adc which keeps him in check

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adc should not be checked or countered by other adcs. assassins used to counter adcs but do not anymore
theres another class that still counters adc

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but that class has been irrelevent to the meta in quite a while

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duelist can go even into adc but usually beat them since gold advantage and lvl advantage

novel goblet
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yk you can look up an adc's winrate against assassins
to easily prove you wrong, right?

gaunt plover
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a class weakness should not be its own class

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u cant compare classes with eachother

novel goblet
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Even with large sample size?

gaunt plover
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nope

novel goblet
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aight

gaunt plover
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adc are fighting against other adc mages and sometimes yasuo

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assassins are not fighting against adc

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also im not sure how you even compare the winrate from adc going against an assassin

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lane counters exist but this isnt talking about lane counters

forest dust
unkempt sundial
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yes and no, i dont think they should be outscaling during the midgame

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i do think they shouldnt be absolute paper so they walk a think line, its why the whole "adc satisfactory" thing kind of came to light

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even if theyre strong they arent fun to play for this reason

full niche
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Well adcs are generally the weakest in mid game

forest dust
full niche
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If marksmen weren't squishy them they wouldn't be marksmen

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They would be bruisers like graves or urgot then

gaunt plover
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jg sup and adc having satisfactory changes
meanwhile top and mid 💀

near harbor
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dude talks like adc isnt the most powerful role

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consistent ranged high damage? check
mobility? check
survivability? check
burst? check
what the fuck do they lack

gaunt plover
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a reality check

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adc complaining about assassins one shotting them

near harbor
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thats how its meant to be, assasssins MUST kill adcs

gaunt plover
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so they get a massive mid season durabillity patch so they dont just get one shot

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meanwhile juggernauts get perma kited by adc
riot adds stridebreaker
OH NO NERF STRIDEBREAKER SO BROKEN

near harbor
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but good luck killing zeri or miss fortune

gaunt plover
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idk adc community literally trying to get overbuffed so they counter everything and not lose to their intended counters

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like if zed is not 1 shotting you thats kinda of an issue

hidden vault
gaunt plover
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oh good luck if a enchanter is on an adc

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theres like one class that counters adc enchanter combo but that class has been so irrelevent for like 6 years

hidden vault
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tbh most assassins don't care except maybe like kha zix beacuse of isolation

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except for milio, that kid is just built different

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like rengar, has a free cleanse, just r jump kill repeat fuck the enchanters

gaunt plover
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if u use cleanse u dont 1 shot

hidden vault
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you dont need cleanse because draktharr passive

gaunt plover
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one time use old duskblade was better on rengar

hidden vault
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old duskblade was too much

gaunt plover
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old duskblade u can 1v5 alot easier as rengar

hidden vault
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tbh as much as I liked the invis its toxic to the game

near harbor
hidden vault
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adc community is delusional at this point

gaunt plover
hidden vault
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idk when you have ever seen an adc not being able to carry after jungle giving them 1-2 kills, literally rarely happens

near harbor
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fuck them just like how mojang devs ignore people asking for end update

gaunt plover
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i mean i wish man but we literally dont have a person who plays top lane on the balance team

hidden vault
gaunt plover
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if there was a person on the balance team who played top we would literally see massive changes into the top lane meta

hidden vault
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i wish people could care the same about adc community as they do with toplane

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everyone says different shit, they argue over crazy stuff, half are deluded

gaunt plover
near harbor
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and remember
each role cannot kill some others, assassins cannot kill tanks, ...
adcs can kill ANYONE

gaunt plover
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to playing bot lane is crazy

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i remember when ziggs was being op in bot lane and adc mains did not like that
meanwhile top lane

hidden vault
near harbor
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also if you ever felt that marksmen arent broken, remember that adcs can be played in all roles (yes, even jungle for some champs) but no one else can play adc except yas/serapig/karthus

gaunt plover
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ranged top aatroxDerp

near harbor
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ranged top is just disgusting

gaunt plover
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the vayne with ghost in question

near harbor
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and there are two concepts
one is powerful/weak
one is annoying/feeling good
like nasus isnt too powerful, but he is annoying to play against. same as teemo, and a lotta stuff.
ranged top is annoying

hidden vault
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there is definitely a reason why toplaners always whine about bot gap

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I used to main top and I never remember myself whining about any lane except bot gap

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literally if enemy mid/top/jungle is ahead and they are the carry, it is possible to shut them down and win the game from a comeback but if its the adc, yes its still possible but chances are very slim

hidden vault
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like they created such a delusion in people throughout years "oh adcs are so weak look i got oneshot by assassin it happens every game" like thats definitely not the point of assassins

forest dust
polar urchin
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A meta where ADC’s are too strong is a meta no-one likes. Not even ADC players though when are they ever satisfied

That’s all I’ll say on this matter