Changes League Needs!!

[fleet badge]

I agree with what he said

Tanks should be able to kill someone in a 1v1 setting

But shouldn't be dealing the most damage

[molten marsh]

Good

I'm glad you changed your previous opinion

[fleet badge]

But you didn't?

In games there is the holy trinity of dps, tank, and support

[molten marsh]

This is what you said

and this was changed

idk what you are going on about

[fleet badge]

Poor phrasing

[molten marsh]

Good

[fleet badge]

Tanks should be soaking up most of the damage if not all

And should either be able to deal some damage or provide util like cc

But their main job is to be a meatshield

Also I said this after that

.

[molten marsh]

Oh

You think Tanks deal the most damage in the game

What tanks are dealing more damage than adcs?

[fallen atlas]

Depends on the match but usually the longer the match is the more the difference between the damage between adc and tank.

[fleet badge]

When did I say that

[hoary mica]

illaoi

[fleet badge]

I'm saying that some tanks should be able to deal damage but provide less util

[fallen atlas]

Not a tank but good try

[hoary mica]

?????

[fleet badge]

But other tanks should provide more util for less damage

One example of high damage tanks or juggernauts

[hoary mica]

if you try saying illaoi isnt a tank you are smoking crack

[fallen atlas]

bruiser

[hoary mica]

you only call her a bruiser because she deals damage lol

shes tanky asf

[fleet badge]

Illaoi is a mix of tank and dps

[fallen atlas]

She has a lot of heal and usually bruisers have tankiness

[fleet badge]

Provides less cc than traditional tanks but makes up for it in the dps section

[hoary mica]

you trying to tell me illaoi isnt tanky?

[fallen atlas]

Not as tanky as tanks

[molten marsh]

illaoi the tank....

[hoary mica]

every single item illaoi builds gives either health + armor/mr or both lol

and u telling me she isnt a tank?

[molten marsh]

Yes

She's a bruiser

[hoary mica]

which is a tank that deals damage lmao

[fallen atlas]

Divinder sunderer, sterak, cleaver arent tank items

[molten marsh]

Yes but that's why they are called bruisers

Because they aren't as tanky as tanks

[hoary mica]

they are because they give a bunch of health

[molten marsh]

and can deal higher damage than tanks

That's why she's in a different class then tanks

[fallen atlas]

Yea they give same amount of health as tank items but not armor or magic resist

[hoary mica]

I guess the 4k health illaoi isn't a tank because she can deal damage lol

[fleet badge]

What definitions are we using?

[molten marsh]

I mean if we want to be real

[fleet badge]

I'm using the league wiki's definition

[molten marsh]

technical she's a juggernaut

[fallen atlas]

4k health with 100 armor and 80 mr -_-

[hoary mica]

I guess none can because you just call them a bruiser if they do

[molten marsh]

Yep

[fallen atlas]

Easy kill with max health damage

[molten marsh]

That's why we have classifications

If you want to complain about bruisers

than complain about bruisers

but tanks

do not deal the most damage in the game

[hoary mica]

I don't care about your classifications, if someone has 4k health and they are tanky as fuck im going to call that a tank lmao

classifications are meaningless, there was some bronze 4 player the other day classifying champions as like wardens/batttlemages/wizards and I was like WTF lmfao

[fallen atlas]

Well they are bronzes for a reason

[fleet badge]

Wizards seems like another term for mages

[fallen atlas]

battlemages is a correct one

[fleet badge]

Wardens too

[fallen atlas]

yea

[hoary mica]

Just people trying to say illaoi isn't a tank is just ridiculous tho

[fleet badge]

Illaoi is a mix of tank and dps

[molten marsh]

So a bruiser?

[fallen atlas]

Illaoi falls in to the fighter category

[fleet badge]

I personally use the term juggernaut

[molten marsh]

True that's what I would use too

Bruiser is the umbrella term

And then Fighters/Juggernauts would be sub categories

[fallen atlas]

Divers 😮

[molten marsh]

Yeah there's a lot of sub categories

Nothing official

[molten marsh]

Also I see nothing wrong with this

Assuming that Wizards are just mages

[hoary mica]

The classifications are not important because it's more of the build that determines what category the champion falls under and less of the champ itself.
For example, Malphite is a "tank" right? Build him full AP and that is no longer the case

[fallen atlas]

Well usually abilities are different for each class and have some in common

[hoary mica]

I don't try to categorize champ by which champion class the league wiki or whatever you guys use say. If i'm using a champion as a punching bag and he's not taking damage, then i'm going to call that a tank

[jolly kiln]

Zac one shotting everyone insight and not dying

[hoary mica]

Zac is another tank that can usually out damage an ADC

[fallen atlas]

kekw

[jolly kiln]

Idk about out dmg, but his dmg is hella high

Even for a tank

[molten marsh]

But we we have different classification for different champs/builds though?

like no shit the full ap malphite isn't a tank anymore

nor does anyone call him that

[molten marsh]

Finally a tank

[hoary mica]

it's just crazy how you are trying to say illaoi isn't a tank just because she can do damage

[molten marsh]

I'm going to ignore everything you say about Illaoi being a tank okay

and focus on actual tanks

Because Bruisers dealing more damage than adcs are fine

So checking on leaguofgraphs

an average zac in plat+

deals 563 damage

the average ashe in plat+

[fallen atlas]

in a match?

[molten marsh]

deals 648

per match

[fallen atlas]

?

[molten marsh]

Sure you will get games where Zacs deal the most damage

But

in the average game to game

a Zac will not outdamage the lowest dmg adc in the game

Next tank please

and not a bruiser

[fallen atlas]

She isnt a tank because she lacks the charasteristics of a tank

[hoary mica]

Here's a challenger zac that plays full tank zac almost every game in challenger lobbies.
https://na.op.gg/summoners/na/KryRa 16
you can see that not always, but most of the time he outdamages at least one ADC in the game

[molten marsh]

Wow nice sample size

[fallen atlas]

1 player

gg

[hoary mica]

you can look at any Zac OTP

gonna look the same and hes gonna outdamage an ADC most of the time

[molten marsh]

Hey I found a Galio top main with no flash

https://www.op.gg/summoners/kr/매콤바삭 애디

[hoary mica]

I was just linking a challenger player to show that those are also challenger ADC's that he is out damaging

[molten marsh]

Galio top is op

[hoary mica]

look up any decent Zac OTP and he outdamages ADC's alot of the time

[molten marsh]

Bruh the last 4/5 games on the otp you sent

didn't even outdamage the adc

[fallen atlas]

And zac is a jungler so it kinda makes the statistic go badly

[hoary mica]

in 3/5 of his last Zac games, he out damaged at least one ADC in the game

those are GM/Challenger ADC's btw

[fallen atlas]

and zac is a jungler

[molten marsh]

Are we looking at the same account?

[fallen atlas]

he was probs looking at the aram games -_-

[hoary mica]

1st game he didn't out damage anyone

[molten marsh]

I even refreshed to make sure I'm not the one that's wrong

[jolly kiln]

Sounds underrated

[hoary mica]

2nd game he outdamages the sivir

[molten marsh]

It def is

[jolly kiln]

Galio with grasp full tank top sounds nice

[fallen atlas]

jungle btw

[molten marsh]

What sivir?

Oh you mean on the enemy team LOL

[jolly kiln]

The only reason he’s played mid is cuz of his Mr but like who even cares, full tank galio too better

[hoary mica]

Yes, at least one ADC in the game he outdamages most of the time

[fallen atlas]

If only he had some abilities that scaled better with tank

[jolly kiln]

Yeah sadly

He’s in an awkard state of full ap or tank

But has no benefits from building tank

Besides the stats

So he’s forced to go full ap

[fallen atlas]

Yea

Tried mixing some ap and tank but it kinda goes weirdly

[molten marsh]

you shouldn't be comparing damages between winning team and losing team

to begin with

[fallen atlas]

also between a jungler and an adc in a short game

[jolly kiln]

But yeah galio is basically a tank, he has all the cc that a tank would want

[fallen atlas]

More mr scaling with every ability ez fix

[molten marsh]

One team will always have substantially more gold and better teamfights to get more damage

So it should be narrowed to same team

[fallen atlas]

Yea also in short matches junglers have more opportunities to deal damage than adc

[molten marsh]

I mean sorted by masters+

on leagueofgraphs

[hoary mica]

.

[molten marsh]

Zac still only does 552 dmg

while Ashe does 633

[molten marsh]

?

Are you trying to make a point about something?

[hoary mica]

I believe I already did

[molten marsh]

How does this even remotely counter what I said?

Can you not take what I said out of context

and read

please

It just makes you look silly

[hoary mica]

I literally proved you wrong and then you change it to "you shouldn't be comparing damages between winning & losing teams"

[molten marsh]

can you not take what I said out of context

[fleet badge]

I think the point is that zac will normally not outdamage an adc

[fallen atlas]

^^^^

[molten marsh]

As I already said, winning team and losing teams will be in a much different circumstance

such as gold leads

also why sample size is important

[pine lintel]

why are ya'll still going here

[molten marsh]

so that these high variable issues will be ironed out

[sterile sonnet]

I think it depends on the marksman you're comparing to :)

[fleet badge]

I'm bored right now

[hoary mica]

My point is that Zac is a high-damage dealing tank and if you disagree then you are smoking something

[pine lintel]

[molten marsh]

I compared it to the lowest damage one to prove a point

[sterile sonnet]

who would that be

[pine lintel]

I'm just gonna take a shower with hot water

[molten marsh]

sorted by masters+
on leagueofgraphs
Zac still only does 552 dmg
while Ashe does 633

[pine lintel]

just give me a summary of what's going on rn

[molten marsh]

Unless you want to go on a rant about how masters+ isn't high elo enough for you

[hoary mica]

thats still high damage for a tank do you disagree?

[fleet badge]

We went back to the tanks should/shouldn't do high damage

[molten marsh]

Not at all

[hoary mica]

that's my point then

[sterile sonnet]

Does that use game length as a metric? thats roughly around 20 with dp/m right?

[molten marsh]

As long as tanks aren't dealing more damage than adcs

It is fine

[hoary mica]

lmao whole argument started because I said zac was a high damage dealing tank

[molten marsh]

Liar

[fallen atlas]

nah you said illaoi tank kekw

[modern bison]

yea bro, masters+ sucks. im 10000x better than all the masters players

wish league would give me real competition

[molten marsh]

But please keep changing your goal post

[hoary mica]

he said he was ignoring that, but I stand by what I say. Illaoi is a tank

[molten marsh]

If this was your argument I would have agreed with you

[fallen atlas]

Does she build tank items or what?

[hoary mica]

I dont lookup league wiki shit to classify tanks, If they are tanky then I call them tanks

[modern bison]

illaoi normally builds fighter items no?

sunderer dd etc?

[fallen atlas]

yes

[modern bison]

would be odd if i saw tank illaoi

[fallen atlas]

and this dumbo thinks building divine makes a champ a tank

[hoary mica]

I literally just said if they are tanky I call them tanks

lmao

[modern bison]

it shouldn't, but thats how divine has worked for the longest time

[fallen atlas]

Nah it give just healing but it got nerfed

[modern bison]

yea its finally nerfed 🙏

[hoary mica]

Next, you guys are gonna try telling me the 10k health chogath isn't a tank xD

[sterile sonnet]

bad terminology on the "tanky =/= tanks"

[fleet badge]

If a champ is tanky then either they are a tank or are building tank

[molten marsh]

[jolly kiln]

League is holding you back from challenger

[sterile sonnet]

this is also a bad take.

[fleet badge]

Why

[sterile sonnet]

simple stats from level up and other sources of durability not inherently tied to tank items

[jolly kiln]

Bruisers are basically mini tanks

[fleet badge]

Bruisers are like a mix between tank and dps

So it wouldn't be wrong to call them a tank or dps

[fallen atlas]

They share some similar characteristics

[fleet badge]

But calling them only one of those would be wrong

[hoary mica]

It's pretty simple, if you are a beefy boi and you can frontline and soak alot of damage in teamfights, you are a tank

[fleet badge]

You forgot to put a y at the end of tank

[sterile sonnet]

guess that means aatrox is a tank now

[jolly kiln]

Y’all don’t build warmogs on aatrox?

[sterile sonnet]

guess that means swain is a tank now

[jolly kiln]

[modern bison]

guess that means urgot is a tank now

[jolly kiln]

Guess that means hecarim is also a tank now

[modern bison]

all shieldbow adcs are tanks too

because they soak damage w/ the lifesteal and shield

[jolly kiln]

Oh damn

[molten marsh]

Silly definitions gets silly responses

[hoary mica]

You guys can work on your in-depth classifications of champions, meanwhile I'll be smurfing in your peak while calling tanky champions tanks

[jolly kiln]

Wait so is Diana also a tank… with yas and yone… :sadge:

[hoary mica]

tHe 10k HeAlTh cHo'gaTH isn't a taNK he Is A bRuiSER SpecIAList

[molten marsh]

low effort bait

I seen better baits from BlightKnight

[hoary mica]

hE iS nOt a mAge He is aN aRTiLLerIST bAttLeMage

[hoary mica]

Yes, if they have enough beef

There is no exact number of beefyness you need to be called a tank, but if a champion has enough beef you will know

[modern bison]

ouch

that cuts deep

[fleet badge]

You can call a champ by their class or subclass and be right

[hoary mica]

that's true, but you are also a clown if you try telling me a 10k health cho'gath isn't a tank

[fleet badge]

He is but his kit is unique compared to other tanks

[hoary mica]

Every tank's kit is unique in their own way. His job is to frontline and soak damage in team fights, just because he is not a tank according to the shit wiki, that doesn't mean he's not a tank lmao

[fleet badge]

What I'm saying is that his kit doesn't fall under either of the tank subclasses so he's a "specialist"

[stuck cypress]

Cho isn't a tank, he doesn't do damage

[hoary mica]

If I asked an average league of legends player to name some specialist champions they would be like "what the f*** is a specialist" hahaha

[fleet badge]

We all have our own definitions like juggernauts or bruisers for champs who can tank and deal a lot of damage

[jolly kiln]

@sterile sonnet he’s baiting I’ve seen him do it in another post kekw

[hoary mica]

exactly, "we all have our own definitions"

[stuck cypress]

How is it bait

Also I've never baited

[fleet badge]

Yeah

[jolly kiln]

[fleet badge]

Different terms, different definitions, etc.

[sterile sonnet]

considering the fighter/diver/juggernaut thing is pretty solidified

that phrase doesnt really apply.

[hoary mica]

I said illaoi is a tank and then these weirdos started coming at me with weird subclass shit

[fleet badge]

Do you think illaoi is exclusively a tank?

[hoary mica]

I dont and never said that she was

[fleet badge]

Then you're not wrong

[hoary mica]

But a few people told me she wasn't a tank

[jolly kiln]

Because “technically” she isn’t

[hoary mica]

just shocking that some people will say that a champion with over 5k health isn't a tank

[stuck cypress]

Because Illaoi isn't a tank

[fleet badge]

Illaoi is a hybrid of a tank and dps

[stuck cypress]

Sunderer disqualifies all champs from being a tank

[sterile sonnet]

illaoi is a juggernaut first and foremost. the champion is designed to deal nothing but insanely high damage in her zone

[stuck cypress]

Any champ that builds Sunderer isn't a tank

[sterile sonnet]

she has 0 defensive properties and relies on her missing hp healing to 'tank'

Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility.

[hoary mica]

can you define a tank for me?

[fleet badge]

In the holy trinity, tanks are those who soak up a lot of damage

[jolly kiln]

Ok but where tanks and juggernauts differ is juggernauts usually have the dmg and slowness and tanks have the cc and actually benefit from tank times

[fleet badge]

They usually also have utility like cc

[hoary mica]

I agree, illaoi usually soaks alot of damage right?

[fleet badge]

Fighters are a mix between dps and tank

[sterile sonnet]

Tanks are tough melee champions who sacrifice damage in exchange for powerful crowd control. While able to engage enemies in combat, a tank's purpose isn't usually to kill opponents; rather, tanks excel at disrupting enemies and diverting focus to themselves, allowing them to lock down specific targets (or several targets at once), as well as remove (or peel) threats from their allies.

[fleet badge]

Juggernauts lean more towards tanks

While divers lean more towards dps

[sterile sonnet]

In addition to strong base defenses, tanks generally have a means of amplifying their tankiness even further with their abilities, and tend to fully invest in defensive items to maximize their resilience. However, tanks lack the tools to truly succeed in single combat, and their influence is limited by their low overall mobility, preventing them from constantly staying on top of their targets.

[fleet badge]

Juggernauts are tanks who deal a lot of damage but have little to no cc

They are also slow

[hoary mica]

@sterile sonnet and the site that you got that off, just described cho'gath perfectly and says that he isn't a tank

[sterile sonnet]

Specialist was a newer brand when it was originally conceived as a 'zoner'

[fleet badge]

By the definition provided by the wiki, cho wouldn't fit under either tank subclass

Doesn't have a kit that starts a fight or is dedicated to protecting his team

[sterile sonnet]

since the main focus with the introduction of the sub-class thing was to try and make it easier for guidlines for the balance/dev team.

[hoary mica]

All i'm saying is that if I see a champion with 4-5k+ health and they eat alot of damage i'm calling them a tank whether the shit wiki likes it or not

[fleet badge]

Then you go do that

[sterile sonnet]

just to clarify.

Specialists are a diverse group of champions who do not "fit into a neat little box" in regards to other class/subclass specifications. The majority of these champions were once part of other sub-classes but were reclassified in the V7.10 update, including a large number of champions from the former Zoner subclass of Controller. As a consequence, many Specialists exhibit "zone control" either as a dominant or secondary attribute, including many of the pre-7.10 Specialists

[hoary mica]

I think cho'gath fits into the tank category perfectly

exactly how they describes it as well

[sterile sonnet]

cho'gath has no defensive part in his kit innately other than health stacking

and has no benefits on any of his abilities building health outside e size/width

[hoary mica]

they classify amumu as a tank, what is his defensive part?

[sterile sonnet]

his E reduces a lot of basic AA damage. maybe not so much now-a-days and amumu has something cho'gath lacks. engage primarily

so amumu falls into their little vanguard section

[hoary mica]

you wouldn't say that the extra health from cho'gath's R isn't enough of a defensive to call him a tank?

[sterile sonnet]

Health only goes so far.

[hoary mica]

I would argue that a couple thousand hp is more valuable than the E passive from amumu

[sterile sonnet]

it in theory gives amumu more effective hp overall

granted its not as universal as health. it's still applicable.

[hoary mica]

also champions like maokai are categorized under tank

where is maokai's defensives?

[sterile sonnet]

maokai gragas etc. havent really aged that well in regards to the standards

maokai builds more like an ap bruiser currently and so does gragas. if memory serves.

when maokai was changed in that tank update in season 7 he lost his main defensive tool in trade for longe range engage

[cerulean mortar]

Idk about gragas, Played a game again tank gragas and yummi, and we couldnt kill him late game.

[sterile sonnet]

that's with yuumi

this is straight up the champion by itself.

[cerulean mortar]

but it wasnt even close

people just need to learn to play him

[sterile sonnet]

you cant really factor in something like enchanters items etc. when it comes to this stuff

because they can alter your champion to fulfill a different playstyle.

like predator giving you an easier time in ganks or a 'soft' engage due to high ms.

you go only by the baseline of a champions kit and what it can do

nothing else.

[cerulean mortar]

fair, honestly, he isnt all that good top lane

His sustain is aight, but against other champs, there are better options

But if we need changes, we should factor in op champs too?

[fleet badge]

Point and click dash that roots the target, sapling in brush slowing enemies in an aoe, and 5 instances of roots with ult

[sterile sonnet]

he means in regards to defensive steroids

[hoary mica]

that's not a defensive my guy

[sterile sonnet]

which is only his passive.

maokai used to grant himself and his allies 20% damage reduction in an area.

his only 'defensive' tool also gets a shorter cd when you're hit by a shitload of spells. making him into an awkward anti-magic tank that doesnt really fulfill its purpose anymore

you'd just be better off picking galio in a scenario like that unless you want vision control over brush.

riot give my tree a mid-scope update damnit.

[jolly kiln]

No he can stay irrelevant

[sterile sonnet]

but why

[cerulean mortar]

If he is so bad and in need of an update, why do soo many pros play him in pro play?

[sterile sonnet]

i'm not saying he's bad. im saying his kits outdated similar to sivir and could use a small scale update to bring him back into toplane and potentially jungle.

don't misinterpret what i say.

[cerulean mortar]

Ahh, I also feel like a lot of them are tbh

[molten marsh]

lmfao stop trolling you are infamous in the #esports channel

[molten marsh]

Maokai?

He hasn't seen play in a long time

[wet nymph]

REVERT MAOKAI R

[cerulean mortar]

I might be thinking about past pro games then. Mb.

[molten marsh]

All g

[cerulean mortar]

Im just waiting for them to overturn the item system

I miss being able to build multiple of the same items

like double ie on draven

[sterile sonnet]

sorc shoes stacking would become a very real thing

very fast.

[cerulean mortar]

dude, nothing (other than maybe zeri) was as fast as released jihn...

Remember that? That was CRAZY

[sterile sonnet]

not for MS. youd get 36 flat pen for 2200 gold

[cerulean mortar]

Not gonna lie, this is a weird meta

[jolly kiln]

i hat playing against hi

[raven hare]

Think he meant legendary items and not boots

But idk

[stuck cypress]

Honestly I wish they just stripped down the items so each class builds the same items every game

[jolly kiln]

basically what alrdy happens

[steep oak]

sunfire moment

[nocturne bramble]

sometimes but it's pretty consistent across all top champions to deal a lot of damage.

[molten marsh]

Not all top champs are tanks

Bruiser are going to deal a lot of damage every game

But tanks won't

[sterile sonnet]

Never trust the damage charts of a toplaner. they can get pretty skewed because of how much toplaners like to scrap and generally have sustain to take such trades. leading to inflated numbers.

[fallen atlas]

Inflation

the enemy of all

[ruby jasper]

nah bruiser top laners are assassins

does more dmg with 1 ability than like 6 autos from an adc