log analysis | Ravenholdt | Page 1

woven grove May 9, 2022, 9:13 PM

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opened a thread for you

marsh tusk May 9, 2022, 9:17 PM

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thanks

woven grove May 10, 2022, 6:44 AM

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you did miss one of your first anima charged cp

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rupture uptime seems a bit low

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 6:45 AM

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think thats related to the add phase

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since I focused more on killing adds than continue fighting the boss

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also since I am asking, when the boss enters synthesis phase, its there a point in applying rupture on the blueprints?

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since its all about killing it super fast and the duration of the entire rupture wont go through

woven grove May 10, 2022, 6:49 AM

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rly depends how long they survive

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usually not

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for your opener, i am rly not sure why you have 2x rupture

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 6:50 AM

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not intentional

woven grove May 10, 2022, 6:50 AM

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not sure why you did backstab in dance there

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 6:51 AM

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performated veins

woven grove May 10, 2022, 6:51 AM

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but you wouldn't

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because it is so late in shadow dance

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this is the 7th global

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the backstab here is fine

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but

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you probably had quite high pv stacks when entering dance

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this is why you did end bs at the start

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you should have used bs before dancing

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same with rupture there

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that should have been used in the "finisher" cast before the dance

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your 2nd er cast is delayed

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the backstab here again should have been after dance

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the last gcd you want to use a backstab in is the 6th one in dance

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7th/8th just make no sense as you don't get enough benefits

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also letme check something

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 6:57 AM

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so on 6th gcd, I have 6 cps

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and the way I assumed it was supposed to go was

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use a finisher

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then use backstab

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so I atleast get a cp

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hence I use it at 7th gcd

woven grove May 10, 2022, 6:59 AM

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you basically want to have 3 or more sec left of dance

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also

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you got lucky most of the time

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but you need to have shadowblades up

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when you use bs during dance

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e.g. here

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 6:59 AM

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ok so I get 3 cp instead of 1

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:00 AM

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i am not sure if you had it up

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:00 AM

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but then I wonder, if I have a <1 sec left

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of shadow dance

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I should rather use a finisher

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with 6 cp

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then try to bs

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:01 AM

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i am unsure what the question is

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if you have only 1 or 2 secs left of dance

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you never backstab

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rupturing in dance is a repeat mistake

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you can just apply it before dancing

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:03 AM

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does that also include the opener

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on #subtlety-faq the kyrian opener shadow dances b4 rupture

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:04 AM

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opener is a exception

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but you rly love to rupture in dance

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#

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marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:04 AM

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ngl here

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:04 AM

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marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:04 AM

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I didnt think it was wrong

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:05 AM

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marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:05 AM

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so it wasent like I did it on accident

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I assumed how shadow dance + rupture worked was that the 20% extra dmg was applied for the entire dot

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so during pandemic I would reapply it during the dance

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:06 AM

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it is not a mistake that will cost you heavily on dps

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but in general you want to refresh your maintainance spells outside of dance

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:06 AM

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so that also includes Slice and Dice

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:06 AM

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shadow dance and symbols both are dynamic

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:07 AM

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I could have also done that during the dance

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I am not 100% sure

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:07 AM

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slice and dice is fine to refresh in dance

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rupture you usually either refresh in preperation for symbols/dance

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or after it

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your shadow dance uptime is also fairly low

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means you probably sit to much on dance charges

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:08 AM

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I usually only burn dance charges when I have 2 stacks, but no symbols or shadow blades

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so I stack it at max, burn 1 charge

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:09 AM

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you are not playing venthyr anymore

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venthyr would plan dance more towards flag

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so you would usually just use 1 charge or charges when about to overcap

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kyrian use is very agressive

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you basically still want to use dance with symbols

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but also just fire it on cd most of the time

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you get enough cdr from er/dance that you can (with low pv stacks and low combo points) just use dance most of the time

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ofc if symbols is about to come up

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and you are only barely on 1 charge, you won't use dance

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but wait for symbols to line it up

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:12 AM

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also while ur mentioning venthyr, during anduin, I wanna burn shadow dance after I get 30% vers/haste

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if I wanna set them up with flag

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:13 AM

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venthyr is more planed

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so you usually dance 2 times with flag

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kyrian due to the high cdr amounts it creates is more "just use it" more or less

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so from what i see in the log:
#1 use your ER on cooldown (outside of dance) - you have 7 casts on a fight you should have 9-10
#2 use shadow dance more aggressively - on cd on low cp while considering things like cp/pv stacks and symbols
#3 Use BS in dance more carefully and when in doubt don't use it during dance. Also always keep track of your PV stacks to not start dance with high stacks
#4 apply/refresh rupture outside of dance, you can in preparation for symbols also refresh it pre pandemic if symbols is about to come off cd. exception: opener

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:18 AM

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I think that summarizes it pretty well

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thx 4 the help

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:34 AM

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I have 1 last question (not challenging, just curious), why is bad to use backstab during the last 3 sec of shadow dance (if I have 6 stacks of performated veins)?

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that was the question u were confused with

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:36 AM

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first of all

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the most important thing about backstabbing in dance is to have shb up

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if you don't have shb up

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you never ever do it

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the thing with backstab in dance is it is rarely a damage gain to do so

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because you trade off casts in shadow dance

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so you rly need to get all benefits from doing so

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shb is a multiplier (50%) on top of the other multipliers

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and the 2p can give you shb during dance

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akaaris is also one of the few ways to get 5+ stacks mid dance

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basically by doing backstab mid dance you still generate more pv stacks and get a very heavy hitting backstab

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then later you use it in dance then less benefits you get

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if like you did you use it at the very last second of dance or the global before that

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you lose benefits from doing so

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the cutoff when the benefits get to low is 3 secs of dance

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with 3 secs you still generate pv stacks on top of the benefits of a hard hitting bs

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every later use just means you can wait for dance to end and use bs after

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so it is about the trade offs you take when doing so

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side note is that using bs in dance is only a marginal damage gain

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it is only like 0.3% dps gain if done correctly

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you lose the gain if you e.g. backstab on 5+ cp during dance regardless of dance duration

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and if you don't have shb up, you are just losing output

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so, it is a fairly high level optimization for a very low amount of gain

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a lot of higher ranks don't use bs in dance due to that

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and just use it before/after dance what is always the default use case

marsh tusk May 10, 2022, 7:47 AM

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understood

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ty for the very detailed explaination 🙂

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but it is good to know, bc that was my default style b4 I looked up a video (Infectious) saying that I should backstab during Shadow Dance when I use performated veins

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he forgot to mention that it should not be done unless I have shadow blades AND if I have over 3 seconds of shadow dance

woven grove May 10, 2022, 7:51 AM

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well it is not as easy to understand

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the dance duration was something a lot of people struggled to relate to when i introduced the change

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and it is still that a lot of ppl forget that the backstab during dance is a high level optimization

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and the main use of pv stacks is outside of dance

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 9:32 AM

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hey @woven grove I got some more logs I wanna review if thats ok?

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one pantheon and one halondrus

woven grove May 13, 2022, 9:32 AM

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sure, just post it

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i will come back to it when i have a bit more time on hand

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 9:33 AM

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1mFnzgBd3wZpWXf7#fight=7&type=damage-done&source=1

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pantheon I felt I did pretty well, just need some minor improvements

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https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1mFnzgBd3wZpWXf7#fight=11&type=damage-done

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halondrus kinda needs more work

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cause idk how to amp up the dps there

woven grove May 13, 2022, 4:36 PM

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i think this 2 buffs did run out

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you should have used a backstab here before dancing, if i am not mistaken you had 4 or 5 stacks there

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you lost globals in this shadow dance, make sure to use shadowstep to get back to the boss faster

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idk what you did there

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but halondrus is a fight you can stick close to 100% on the boss

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symbols was ready earlier, no need to delay there (but this was also with your downtime i am not sure what the cause of it was)

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you lost a global there

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2 here

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you did delay symbols

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the backstab here is to late and should have been used after dance

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shadow dance should have been after symbols here

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again backstab to late in dance, should have been after dance

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same

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 4:46 PM

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woven grove idk what you did there

oh yea crushing prism

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I was looking for a swirlie

woven grove May 13, 2022, 4:47 PM

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you should be 100% on the boss on the fight ^^

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 4:48 PM

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so I should move back, cloak it, shadowstep and continue

woven grove May 13, 2022, 4:49 PM

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basically the mistakes i see a lot are:
#1 downtime during dance or in general boss downtime
#2 backstab usage in dance too late, only use it during the first 5 secs of dance, else just use it after dance
#3 slight delays of cooldowns
#4 some missed anima charges

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 4:50 PM

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atleast I improved holding rupture 🙂

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and not use it during dance

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but the boss downtime

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I still gotta do mechanics :/

woven grove May 13, 2022, 4:51 PM

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you can run out and cloak if you get the mechanic

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and step back in

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should not cause a lot of downtime

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 4:52 PM

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true

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depends on how important those slow zones are to put down

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but in this pug grp I could have prob just ignored it

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what about pantheon?

woven grove May 13, 2022, 4:59 PM

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neither this backstab nor this evi should be in dance

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you didn't use backstab between dance

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oh well, you didn't run pv

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so peeposhrug

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:00 PM

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nah its venthyr

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but I am considering trying kyrian

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:00 PM

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this means both of this is incorrect

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storm instead of backstab

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:00 PM

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oh yea

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the add

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:01 PM

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you did seemingly only apply rupture to one target

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but mistakes are very similar

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you used dance when about to get downtime

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you did as mentioned above not use storm as builder outside of dance

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your flag use is actually

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not good

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the idea is to use flag-finish-cooldowns

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you always seem to repeat the opener sequence instead of that

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:07 PM

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yea I need to work on setting up my dances and cds with flags

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:10 PM

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it was used correct here

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this isn't great btw

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so basically if you want to min/max

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you would rupture both targets in the first 2 target fight part

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and in the 4 target part just spam aoe

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and rupture or funnel only if you need to equalize

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the rest is just the usual mistakes

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delaying cooldowns slightly

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having downtime during cooldowns

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you also had downtime of snd

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:17 PM

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ok so the delay in cds is basically the same in halondrus

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what I usually wanna set them up with shadow dance

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what is the rule of thumb here

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like how long can I delay my shadow dance

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if a cd is coming up

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:18 PM

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you basically want to use symbols on cd

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and align stuff to it

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the only reason you would delay symbols is if flag comes up very soon

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:19 PM

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and if I have nothing to align it with

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I just use it immediately

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:19 PM

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thats the "up to 10 sec" rule you read in guides or the #subtlety-faq

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if you have nothing to align to symbols

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you fucked up

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:19 PM

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well then my prio was a bit backwards

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:19 PM

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for kyrian you can pmuch use it on cd

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:20 PM

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bc I would usually wanna align other stuff with dance

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not symbols

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:20 PM

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basically follow this what i posted earlier in #subtlety

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you basically align everything around symbols by default

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and then depending on covenant can vary in dance use

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venthyr likes to dance more around flag

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because a lot of its power lies in the spell

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kyrian just wants you to dance as much as possible

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just to be clear

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at no point should you cap on charges

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:21 PM

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ofc

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so I need to work on my cds

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and align around symbols

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not dance

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and for halondrus I just wanna focus boss

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and just remove the debuff fast if I get it (if there is a ball spawner, gr8, if not w/e)

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and work on the pv thing

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also when I use venthyr

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which is only pantheon and anduin

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:25 PM

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it might sounds obviouse

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but you basically at any boss

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always want to attack the boss/stay on the target

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and only run away if rly nessecery

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:26 PM

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ideally

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I want 2 charges when I flag

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:27 PM

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e.g. it makes a lot of diffrence in mythic raiding

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:27 PM

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but as long as I have 1 charge, im fine?

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:27 PM

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a more casual guild will not optimize for melee uptime

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and often have melee dps run around obstacles or void zones

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have them run way to far for mechanics etc

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if it gets more competitive

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people will try to optimize it so that downtime is for dps minimal

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and players will also try to position themself to help with that

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back to flag

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you ideally use 2 charges after flag, but if you only have one thats fine

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the important part is to reach high stacks

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if you can't do that you likely make mistakes

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:30 PM

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that is what sort of bothers me

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bc if I have 1 charge

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and get 30 stacks

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but no 2nd charge

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for the vers/haste buff

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:30 PM

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thats fine

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but you should be able

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to use dance so that you usually can dance 2 times

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:31 PM

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true

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but I prob shouldnt hold cds so I have 2 charges

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its better to use flag on cd

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then w8 10+ secs

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so I have 2 charges

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:32 PM

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you usually only use dance

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(not on kyrian)

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if you get close to capping

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so dance usage is a lot more planed on venthyr

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and you can usually blow 2 charges with flag while getting enough cdr back to have dance again for your next symbols

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:34 PM

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true

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opener guarantees it

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If done right I should get 3 charges chained

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during the entire flag duration

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stack + buff

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:36 PM

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3 dances is risky during the opener

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2 work fine

marsh tusk May 13, 2022, 5:36 PM

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so I should burn only 2

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and then start holding

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till im about to cap

woven grove May 13, 2022, 5:37 PM

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you use it with symbols

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and else when you are about to cap

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and ofc 2 with flag if possible

#log analysis