whoracle log review | Ravenholdt | Page 1

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 10:24 PM

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aight give me a quick sec

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 10:24 PM

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i reckon skolex is a good fight to check for any mistakes

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:00 PM

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maybe even https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CF2cWvQjyKhPLqpt/#fight=29&type=damage-done&source=16 as he mentioned he was playing wrong setup for skolex. but i'm still uncertain if that would make such a difference

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:01 PM

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sorry bout that, had to do a bit of housework real quick I'm taking a look now

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:02 PM

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yeah no worries, i appreciate any help

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:02 PM

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first thing I see in that log is some really weird opening for flag, usually you would see like strike->slice->dance->strike to 5->flag->rup->symbols

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with blades going wherever

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but here the symbols gets popped super early and then we strike 3 in a row because of a tier proc, just completely ignoring it

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they're also running into the classic venth mistake of just sending dance like a lunatic

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this is the third dance in a row here

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and it's just not up in time for the symbols, so it ends up getting held

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looking at the symbols casts backs that up

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are you semi-familiar with how sub plays? I'm not sure if I should just point out the mistakes or explain the reasoning behind it as well

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:06 PM

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i've played it a bit, but i'm not too indepth with how it currently plays

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would you save for funneling combo point into flag or when the flag buff is running

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or is that not an mistake he's making

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:07 PM

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symbols should be used after the first finisher of flag ideally

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so like build to 5, flag, finish, symbols

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this is.... fine

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the dance into eviscerate is jarring to look at

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but it's one missed gcd, not the end of the world

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symbols into eviscerate is fine

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the bigger issue is that there's no follow up

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:08 PM

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yeah, looking to help with the big problem first, small kinks can always happen

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:08 PM

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the end of the flag looks like this

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and now I'm starting to see some similar issues arise again, holding symbols, not understanding the combo of flag, empty gcds after flag

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:10 PM

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that's alot of wasted damage

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so his main goal would be to work on his flag windows ?

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:11 PM

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well

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kinda

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I think his main issue isn't actually the flag window being terrible

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it's his dance logic is non-existent, which causes the flag window to be terrible

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like looking at this

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he's just chaining 4 dances back to back to back to back

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that's not sustainable as venth

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so he's running out of dance charges

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and it's throwing off everything else

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no dance charges, but symbols comes up, so now we have to hold symbols and get into this situation

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and because we're holding symbols but it should be cast with flag, now instead of every minute, we're casting it every 1:15

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so now the flag casts are coming right before the retch interrupt

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and that's why we need to run out and waste the stat-overhang thing on flag

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it's just kinda snowballing out of control

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bad dance -> bad symbols -> holding cds -> not only missing casts, but also coming in at a bad time -> bad timing on cds leading to bad cd usage -> repeat cycle

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I think the best advice I could give is symbols is the clock that holds you honest, every 30 seconds, the symbols comes out

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every other symbols, has a flag

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you can hold a couple seconds to make that happen

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usually they should line up very close

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:16 PM

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yeah that's what i've remembered playing sub too

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:16 PM

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dance should only be cast if you're going to: 1. overcap on charges, or 2. are going to cast symbols

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so naturally, you cast symbols every 30 seconds, and flag with the symbols every minute

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so you're going to be naturally dancing on flag as well

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and you should see a second charge almost overcapping on flag if you do that properly

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to where you get into a rhythm of symbols dance, symbols flag dance dance, symbols dance, symbols flag dance dance

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it's a 2+1+2+1+2+1 kind of thing

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and if you're going to overcap, just burn a charge and continue on the 2+1+2+1+2

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:18 PM

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yeah i'm talking to him and it seems like he was told to just send dance

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:18 PM

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MonkaS

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idk who would tell him that

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let me look at this kyrian log

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kyrian has a lot more access to dances

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so the issue would be hidden a little bit

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:19 PM

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alright, i'm interested to see if there's another issue

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:19 PM

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but the symbols problem

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is still there

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that 30 second internal clock of symbols still doesn't exist

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:19 PM

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ok that's good, well bad but should be a simple thing to fix

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:19 PM

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so we're getting huge gaps

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similarly, echoing on cooldown also isn't happening

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:20 PM

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echo is just a send-on-cd iirc right

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as far as i've known

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:20 PM

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yeah, as long as you're not in dance

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this opener is fine, albeit curious

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shouldn't be using rupture in dance first off

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but if you ER, it empowers your cp, you don't need to strike

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can just er->finish

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:21 PM

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would you build to rupture first and then send it?

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:21 PM

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nah

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:21 PM

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or send it and afterwards rupture

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:21 PM

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you just full skip rupture if you're in dance

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and get it up if you have a second between dances

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:21 PM

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alright

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:21 PM

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the other thing to note

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dance is 8 seconds, I should see 8 gcds

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this is 6, maybe that backstab is in dance for 7 but would be a terrible cast to put there

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the next dance is 4 gcds

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:23 PM

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yeah the whole sending dance whenever threw him off a ton

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but it's good to know all this have a bunch to improve on

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:23 PM

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wasted a 4 piece proc the dance after that again with the triple strike

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also since he's playing perforated (as he should), there should be a backstab before that second dance

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more wasted gcds, the symbols is delayed and gets cast into nowhere

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this is just a wasted symbols

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yeah this kyrian log might actually be worse

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this dance looks okay at first glance but you got 3 strikes in a row again, then a 4 piece proc which gets completely blasted through, 3 more strikes

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the slice should've been refreshed earlier

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there's a vanish during the dance as well, you want to use that out of dance to replace a backstab

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the slice should've been the eviscerate here

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slice pandemic timer is like 10+ seconds

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:27 PM

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yeah i see

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:27 PM

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so either it's already in pandemic before the dance

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:27 PM

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so he dropped it during his window

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:27 PM

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and you can refresh it fine

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or you can wait till after the dance and refresh it there

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but refreshing it during the dance just shouldn't happen

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you can actually clip the pandemic on rupture/slice early by a couple seconds if you're going to go into dance

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just more missed gcds

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oh my god

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just

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so many

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he's off the boss a full 20 seconds

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:29 PM

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yeah he might've ran away from the boss during that point during the waves or whatever they are called on the fight

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:29 PM

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yeah but even for that 20 seconds is a long long time

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:29 PM

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he's been the whole ill do this type of guy, sacrificing alot of his dmg

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yeah 20 is waay to long

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:29 PM

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you can skip the waves by shadowstepping the boss

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or door of shadows works

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or cloak

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:29 PM

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that aswell yeah

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:30 PM

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only cast 3 shadowsteps the whole fight actually

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and they're with cloak?

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very weird

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idk what's going on there

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if you cloak you can just stand on the boss idk why you would need to cloak something and then step it as well

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anyways

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I don't want to be completely negative, there are some good things here too

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glimmers of hope in the darkness

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:31 PM

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that's good to hear

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:31 PM

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this for example looks great

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slice before dance to make sure it doesn't drop

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kyrian out of dance

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using a finisher before dance to go in at low cp

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recognizing the 4 piece proc and using it properly, getting all 8 gcds in

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the backstab after to reset perforated, using evisc again to get on low cp going into the next dance

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that's a beautiful 15 seconds right there

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even the continuation looks good aside from the random 2 seconds of downtime on that first dance

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:34 PM

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yeah ill keep an eye on those windows in the future

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:34 PM

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when something like this happens, you would want to symbols into echoing first

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then dance

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yeh and then it's just back to a missed gcd and slice at the start of dance

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and then count with me for a second ready? dance ends at 219, the perforated gets used 220

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this is all nothing

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this is all nothing

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and we're back at 257

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almost a full 40 seconds of just running around for mechanics I assume, basically just doing some glorified auto attacking

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that's this gap in symbols casts

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and then yeah it's just more of the same

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so in general, gotta stop afking for a quarter of the boss, use the tools of the spec to avoid the downtime and avoid falling off the symbols every 30 seconds treadmill

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dances should be planned out a little better

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can loosen it up on kyrian

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general rule is if you're at 1.3-1.5ish charges of dance on kyrian, you're probably fine to send one

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otherwise just follow the 1. don't overcap 2. with symbols rule

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get the maintenance out of the dances, don't slack on the perforated/tier procs

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:41 PM

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alright, this has been a huge help

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got plenty of information i can help him out with, hope to see some improvement. and then see if there are any remaining problems

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never had someone review a log on this level hah it's an amazing job

atomic zealot Apr 27, 2022, 11:47 PM

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Ty ty

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@torn widget let me know how it goes! We can always take another look in a couple week

torn widget Apr 27, 2022, 11:56 PM

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yeah that'll be great

torn widget Apr 28, 2022, 12:28 AM

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so just a quick question since i'm going through openers and cd usage with him

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on icyveins the venthyr opener states: Strike - Slice and Dice - Shadow Dance /Shadow Blades /Strike - Symbols - Flag - Rupture

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on the discord here it says: Strike - Slice and Dice - Shadow Dance /Shadow Blades / Strike - Strike - Flag - Symbols - Rupture

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is there a main reason to why flag/symbols are swapped

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and only 1 strike

atomic zealot Apr 28, 2022, 12:32 AM

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Yeah so there used to be a bug that made flag auto crit from symbols without consuming it

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So we wanted to symbols flag

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But that got fixed

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So now we want to avoid that

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It’s super minor though

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Like 20 dps difference

torn widget Apr 28, 2022, 12:33 AM

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ah okay, good to know

atomic zealot Apr 28, 2022, 12:33 AM

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Yeah the icyveins writer is a high end raider in FSY

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But he kinda employs the “the guide doesn’t have to be exact, it’s a bunch of noob losers who read it anyway” mentality

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So stuff like that just doesn’t get updated

torn widget Apr 28, 2022, 12:34 AM

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yeah that's a shame

atomic zealot Apr 28, 2022, 12:34 AM

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Cause it’s so minor it doesn’t make a difference

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Usually the info follows a sort of trickle down from the discord pins/faq/etc into the wowhead guides, and then the method guides

torn widget Apr 28, 2022, 12:35 AM

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so i think the opener is looking better , but i'm not sure what he's supposed todo afterwards

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don't look at the fireworks haha

atomic zealot Apr 28, 2022, 12:35 AM

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Missing the perforated veins between the dances again

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After that sequence it’s refreshing the maint stuff and then prepping for the next symbols

torn widget Apr 28, 2022, 12:37 AM

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alright,

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probably also not best to practice this at 3 am haha

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it's quite a sequence to get your head around at first, but it should become 2nd nature once you're used to it

atomic zealot Apr 28, 2022, 12:38 AM

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It can be overwhelming if you’re looking at the whole thing at once

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It’s easier to think about it as just get slice up, build, flag, finish and cds

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Then do a dance

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Backstab, do a dance

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Backstab

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Refresh stuff

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Dances will all look the same, start on low cp, strikes and eviscerates

torn widget Apr 28, 2022, 12:39 AM

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yeah

atomic zealot Apr 28, 2022, 12:40 AM

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Breaking it down into chunks

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Huge tech

torn widget Apr 28, 2022, 12:41 AM

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i've had people be overwelmed with icefury/master of the elements ele shaman aswell. it's incredibly simple for me now

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but they're like spinning plates. if you're not sure what to press next you're just going to miss casts

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i'm sure he'll learn it too

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he just has to get rid of his bad habit

latent lantern Apr 28, 2022, 6:20 PM

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i know this isnt probably the correct place for this but it came up when i searched for 'symbols flag'

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but if i so a quick sim on raidbots, the sub APL is still saying to symbols before flag

atomic zealot Apr 28, 2022, 6:48 PM

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latent lantern but if i so a quick sim on raidbots, the sub APL is still saying to symbols befo...

Without tornado yeah?

latent lantern Apr 28, 2022, 6:59 PM

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yup

atomic zealot Apr 28, 2022, 7:10 PM

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latent lantern yup

Yeah that seems fine. The difference is really minor, almost margin of error

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Wouldn’t surprise me if it just wasn’t worth the hassle to change the logic around and risk breaking something in the process and causing a headache for it

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As a general rule for TC’s, changes usually have to be about 0.3% or more to even warrant a change

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Sometimes smaller changes go through if it involves major changes to a rotation where it makes sense to reflect it

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But typically if it’s less than that and doesn’t have a big rotational change it’s just not high enough impact to warrant micro-optimizing for

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Sims at the end of the day are meant to compare items/talents/covenants for 99% of people

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The class writers and theorycrafters that use it to test rotational theories are in the vast minority

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As long as it informs us and estimates items properly, it’s all good

#whoracle log review