golem log analysis | Ravenholdt | Page 1

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:10 AM

#

dry acorn Mar 31, 2022, 7:12 AM

#

nice 🙂

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:21 AM

#

only 7 globals, also i am still unsure if you had 5+ cp on each finisher

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:21 AM

#

How many should be possible?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:21 AM

#

i am not sure why you wait with your 2nd dance use that long, you can usually fire it after you consumed your pv stacks and are on low-ish cp

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:22 AM

#

tight inlet How many should be possible?

8

#

rogue has a 1 sec global cooldown

#

means you can do 8

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:22 AM

#

But only possible with symbols?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:22 AM

#

no

#

always possible

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:22 AM

#

Or do you pool before?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:22 AM

#

you did 8 too

#

but you didn't in the opener

#

its usual when the boss moves, likely due to tanking

#

e.g. here ^

#

also your dance was ready back there

#

😉

#

*symbols

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:24 AM

#

Yea i delayed SD that is a big mistake

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:24 AM

#

er in dance angery don't do that

#

i see some repeating issues

#

you lose one or partly more globals during dance, often probably due to boss mechanics or tanks moving the boss

#

you forget to keep slice and dice up

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:26 AM

#

Do you use dance always on CD? And just delay it if symbols are up in few seconds?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:26 AM

#

it is 90% uptime should be close to 100

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:27 AM

#

Or can u delay it till you do not cap the charges?

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:27 AM

#

As kyrian u always do SD i think

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:27 AM

#

your anima charged combo points seem to not be used always, i see quite some buffs that run for a long time

#

you don't

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:27 AM

#

inner bane you forget to keep slice and dice up

Yeah i saw he had just 90% over the whole fight.. should be nearly 100%

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:27 AM

#

if you are barely on 1 charge

#

and symbols comes up soon

#

you wait for symbols

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:28 AM

#

What is definition of soon?^^ approx?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:28 AM

#

i mean its common sense

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:28 AM

#

Also i noticed that S&D cannot be casted with animacharged

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:28 AM

#

if you have only one charge

#

and symbols has 8 sec cd

#

you won't generate enough cdr to get a 2nd charge

#

so you hold

#

if you are far higher in charges

#

you can dance-symbols-dance (with bs etc between)

#

but you rarely are

#

due to in general very agressive dance use

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:29 AM

#

So>=8sec u hold

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:29 AM

#

so what you see in logs

#

and i did talk about this a few times now in log reviews

#

is ppl using dance

#

then have symbols ready

#

even wait for dance to run out

#

then use symbols

#

and do 8 secs of backstab

#

just logically, this isn't great

#

you waste all of the damage amp on backstabs while you could have it lined up with dance

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:31 AM

#

So it is no loss of damage if i hold dance if symbols are not rdy

#

Depends on the cd of the second charge

#

But symbols is only up for one dance isnt it?

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:32 AM

#

yea

#

symbol 1 dance

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:33 AM

#

rupture uptime is also fairly low

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:34 AM

#

inner bane then use symbols

You mean they dance, then gettign symbols rdy and using them without a dance?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:34 AM

#

it is not a high impact ability for sure

#

but still should be used

#

they use symbols on cooldown

#

and thats correct

#

but often also dance on cooldown

#

what isn't exactly correct

#

so what happens is

#

they get their 1 charge of dance

#

and if rly unlucky

#

it just aligns to end when symbols come sup

#

so they use symbols on cd

#

bam- no dance charge

#

what to do?

#

backstab-evi till you get dance back what can be 8+ secs

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:35 AM

#

It looks like they are all small mistakes, but at the end they will increase dps

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:35 AM

#

i mean thats how improvemnts work

#

you fix one thing at the time

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 AM

#

Yea

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 AM

#

inner bane backstab-evi till you get dance back what can be 8+ secs

But this is not correct? Or did i missunderstand?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 AM

#

no

#

thats bad

#

you want to use dance during symbols

#

thats like ultimative basics of the spec

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 AM

#

Ok so symbols should never used without dance but used on cd

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:36 AM

#

symbols on cd

#

dance to symbols

#

thats like the thing everyone should understand

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:37 AM

#

Ok so dance should not be used on cd but lined up with symbols

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:37 AM

#

how you use dance outside of that depends

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:37 AM

#

But in a lot of logs i rarely see rogues using backstab 🙈

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:37 AM

#

like with kyrian you have so many charges

#

you can just fire and forget

#

just with this minimal time window

#

where you don't want to fuck yourself over with dancing when losing symbols-dance

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:38 AM

#

tight inlet But in a lot of logs i rarely see rogues using backstab 🙈

backstab between dance?

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:38 AM

#

inner bane backstab between dance?

Yea

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:38 AM

#

if they don't play pv, they don't need to

#

if they do use PV

#

thats bad

#

rather not use PV then

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:38 AM

#

Whats pv?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:39 AM

#

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:39 AM

#

Ah ok 🤦🏻‍♂️😅

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:39 AM

#

we initially missed to optimize for it in the sim

#

and pv was still okay-ish

#

but not the top conduit

#

but once we fixed that the trait became the best one for single target

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:40 AM

#

In m+ no rogue is using it and in raid when i see the logs also stiletto is the conduit they use

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:40 AM

#

and this remains the same up till now

#

m+ has a lot of options

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:41 AM

#

M+ play vent

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:41 AM

#

Pv offers strong single target

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:41 AM

#

differente gameplay

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:41 AM

#

PE is strong allways

#

stiletto can be strong if it means you have blades up to the right pulls

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:41 AM

#

Y especially for forti weeks

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:41 AM

#

I play venth for both because i do not progression raid atm.. just wanted to do some M+

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:41 AM

#

so all options are good

#

what you want to take depends

#

its the same as the discussion about treasure cache trinket

#

it is rly rly strong

#

if you can line it up with a big pull and potentially even lust

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:42 AM

#

I must get it^^ will it get a nerf?

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:42 AM

#

As Vent u shot double dance during FLAG and then an other symbol dance before flag comes up, right fuu?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:42 AM

#

but

#

is it generally better than other trinkets you can control

#

that also might do better prio damage or good aoe?

#

i am not the analyst for mdi teams, but they will need to look into how relevant the trinket is for their pulls

#

and might go with diffrent ones

#

sigil can be e.g. rly strong too, but has a 5 min cooldown so isn't up that much

#

chains can be insane in aoe as its uncapped and is rly good in st, but also won't beat cache in aoe esp. on this gigantic pulls

#

for venthyr you usually double dance

#

but you never sit on dance charges to get that

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:46 AM

#

I still dont know exactly how to use my SD charges…
In M+ if you do big pulls you dont have any problems with your charges due to CDR

#

But if there are some small packs or boss fights, it is no problem to hold it for symbols unless i dont overcap the charges?

#

Then i dont understand how other rogues doesnt get out of charges during their fights

#

It seems they always have SD charges^^

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:48 AM

#

boss fights just play like single target

#

and you will usually generate dance charges back

#

just don't waste your charges

#

e.g. you barely have 1 charge

#

one mob is up and has rly low health

#

rather not use dance here and have 5 secs of dance wasted

#

it is overall very logical

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:49 AM

#

And if i know after this pack the boss will pulled next?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:49 AM

#

and you will get dance charges back fairly quick in m+

#

its your call to make

#

you need to decide when to use

#

and "on cooldown" can lead to just the things you mentioned

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:50 AM

#

For tyrannical maybe it would be better?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:50 AM

#

sub rogue is not a warrior

#

who can just mindlessly spam

#

even tho m+ esp. with 4p will allow you to spam a lot

#

if you use your cooldowns bad on sub

#

you will fuck yourself over

#

thats just how the spec is

#

losing a dance means losing combo points and they create cdr

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:51 AM

#

Yea thats the reason why it is so hard to decide whats right or wrong… needs more practice but not without help because then you learn it wrong

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:51 AM

#

what leads to less dances

#

...

#

in general its never good to delay any cooldown for too long

#

you want to use your cooldowns

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:52 AM

#

And how can i figure this out by myself in warcraftlogs?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:52 AM

#

just like with treasure cache

#

if you look at the top logs

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:52 AM

#

It‘s very difficult for me to find this issues

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:52 AM

#

the trinket has 3 min cooldown

#

and is partly hold for 6 minutes

#

what means used rly inefficently

#

holding somehting for its duration is just bad

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:53 AM

#

But this trinket cant be just used on cd right? Should also be lined up?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:53 AM

#

but given how you can pad on aoe with big pulls, the trinket still can come out ahead

#

its complicated

#

because it cycles through weapons

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:53 AM

#

Oh nice^^

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:53 AM

#

and you want to use the right weapon

#

but back to dance use, if you are unsure, don't use it to agressive

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:54 AM

#

This is no On Use trinket?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:54 AM

#

just use it with cooldowns or if higher on charge is usually a good thing to do

#

it is

#

it cycles through weapons all 12 secs

#

when you activate it gets the active weapon for 20 sec

#

its considered one of the stronger trinkets in m+

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:55 AM

#

inner bane just use it with cooldowns or if higher on charge is usually a good thing to do

But i often have to decide if i use SD because symbols are also up and next pull will be the boss or a big pack

#

And i would think this is a little bit of waste

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:55 AM

#

you have enough charges and generate charges back

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:55 AM

#

But only shuriken storm or backstab is also fail^^

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:56 AM

#

so rarely rly have the "i have symbols but can't use dance"

#

well actually never

#

if the pack is about to die in 3 secs

#

you just won't use stuff

#

and wait

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 7:56 AM

#

Thats bad having symbol up and no dance

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 7:56 AM

#

yes

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 7:57 AM

#

So if that happens it was a fail of using Cooldowns?

#

As a venth for sure

#

What to do in the situation if i have 2 SD charges and symbols up if the pack contains only 2 mobs and you know after this 2 mobs you will pull a big pack

#

Especially in Mists

#

Just dont hesitate to use all the charges because u get them back anyway?

#

U dont have cds directly on pull then but get charges during the big pull?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:02 AM

#

i think its best to just watch ramfam, jpc or a other high m+ streamer

#

they usually have ability timeline

#

and you can see when they use their cooldowns

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:02 AM

#

I am watching JPC sometimes but i cant figure out that fast what he is using 😅

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:03 AM

#

and if you want, you can e.g. try to find out if they use symbols without dance ^^

#

i can spoiler you here, they don't

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:03 AM

#

He is using an addon to see the abilities but i would need a video to pause and analyze^^

#

Do you also use SB on CD with 2pc and double legy? Or line it up?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:04 AM

#

thats probaby the hard part

#

because you rly need to focus on what happens

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:05 AM

#

Flag always with symbols? Never without dance?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:05 AM

#

like, don't missunderstand this

#

i do 15s and have fun there, and don't care as much about pulls (also because tanks do not rly share routes)

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:05 AM

#

inner bane because you rly need to focus on what happens

Yeah thats very difficult for me to have the overview for pulls and what he is using

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:06 AM

#

but people who push the highest optimize a lot for that

#

so its better to watch somone who does know the dungeon and pulls inside out

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:07 AM

#

inner bane i do 15s and have fun there, and don't care as much about pulls (also because ta...

15 keys are boring and no competition and in my opinion you cant improve your gameplay because you can do so much fails and its still intime…

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:07 AM

#

and i guarantee you they make mistakes too, quite a lot probably

#

they are

#

but not everyone play m+ for competition

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:07 AM

#

Ok sry maybe false meaning

#

No competition to other rogues or something

#

Competition for myself to get out the best of my rogue

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:08 AM

#

15 keys are the most efficient time wise, doing a bit higher is fine too

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:08 AM

#

I dont wanna just intime the key, i just want to do the best

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:09 AM

#

doing 24+ is just for the fun of getting r.io

#

there is a small subset of players who enjoys that

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:09 AM

#

Yeah and thats what i aim to, get on my limits

#

But limits are reached fast if you dont get over 10-11k dps overall

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:10 AM

#

well, then its time to self reflect

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:10 AM

#

Thats the hard part 🙈

#

To know what u should improve^^

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:11 AM

#

i don't rly get why

#

you have logs, can record gameplay, etc.

#

the rotation and impact is layed out in guides

#

so you rly just need to utialize the tools you have

#

and on top of that you can ask in discord

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:12 AM

#

Yea if you know how to read them exactly or know what you have to warch out for

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:12 AM

#

and ultimatively there is a point you will also need to experiment

#

e.g. with talents or trinkets

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:13 AM

#

Is there any change of the rotation with 2pc and double leggy?

#

For venth and finality + unity

#

With stiletto

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:14 AM

#

nothing thats not stated in the pins or guides 😉

#

also if you want to push high

#

you rly want 4p

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:15 AM

#

I read them and didnt understand everything^^

#

Yea i try to get them actually

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:15 AM

#

the tier set 4 bonus

#

its essential if you want to push a 25+

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:16 AM

#

But you can reach 20 without?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:16 AM

#

you can do 22s without

#

but the 2p is barely relevant in m+

#

so if like you say you want to push the highest

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:17 AM

#

Double legy and/or 4pc doesnt change anything if you dont play with PV? Is the pin saying this?^^

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:17 AM

#

getting your tier set should be a high prio

#

so normal/heroic/mythic /lfr should all be done if you have chances to get your tier set completed

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:18 AM

#

So 4set is better than any of the 278 non set ?

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:21 AM

#

yes

#

the set bonus is better than any 285 items in the slot that would complete it

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:23 AM

#

Also from Lfr?^^

#

I wasnt sure if this is worth

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:24 AM

#

yes

#

but i mean

#

just sim it

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:24 AM

#

Ok thats what i would have done anyway but i thought simcraft isnt working proper atm

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:25 AM

#

also i think we are already quite a bit away from a log analysis 😉

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:25 AM

#

Using sim for singletarget is clear but for M+? Still dungeonslice good?

#

Oh yea you are right sry 🙈

#

I dont wanna „waste“ more of your time by sending a log

#

U helped me a lot 😉👍🏻

inner bane Mar 31, 2022, 8:30 AM

#

haha, good luck 🙂

tight inlet Mar 31, 2022, 8:31 AM

#

Thank you really much for the help and your time 😊

flint talon Mar 31, 2022, 8:45 AM

#

Ye Fuu is our sensei, much respect to him! It is not easy to find ppl that help you

#

Thank you

#golem log analysis