thats based
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
dry night
belly button and i'm down
steep rampart
This is even more reason to sell NFTs for sims so we can ensure on the blockchain that devs never gain access to them 
raw thunder
sup whisp
proper veldt
This is even more reason to sell NFTs for sims so we can ensure on the blockchai...
The blockchain would never lie
proper veldt
It’s 11am
raw thunder
2 pm here rad
raw thunder
@molten ore maybe i was wrong i see it says season 3 now
i made a promise not to ever lay down unless im going to sleep >.<
molten ore
i don't know if it's possible to negatively impact the view on rogues at this point, many people who play other classes already have their own views cemented, especially pvpers. but i get where you're coming from. though boomkins have well placed themselves in the begging for buffs even though they're good meme for quite a while now.
steep rampart
lol well, I dunno. I still am not sure about the cause and effect there.
molten ore
i wasn't like, backing him up for doing it or anything
steep rampart
I don't really think Tettles is pulling a fast one on a dev or anything with him saying their legendaries are bad
I just think there's some dev that really likes Balance Druids 😛
molten ore
idk why such a reaction like i'm right there with him or something
dry night
Classes / specs just have a certain way of presenting themselves. It doesn't change whether or not they get balanced or whatever
steep rampart
There's definitely some specs/classes that get far more attention than other specs and that's decisions being made internally for reasons we don't really have good visibility on.
lethal hull
I don't really think Tettles is pulling a fast one on a dev or anything with him...
I won’t forget him say moonkin was average weeks into 9.0
weary nacelle
ex: no one at blizzard plays feral druid
steep rampart
e.g. it's not like we were pretending Sub was OK in BfA
molten ore
and this also may be a super hot take, but just looking at sims isn't a good way for a dev to balance imo
steep rampart
We said Sub was trash tier over and over and over and over again
And it never got buffed
molten ore
actually looked at it and testing it in practice should also be done
steep rampart
That was clearly just a decision made by someone somewhere that we can't really understand
dry night
It's not the only piece of information they have
molten ore
you make no sense
steep rampart
Also the unfortunate reality is that with so many specs in the game, there's really never going to be full coverage of either workload or experience internally. Not like they have 30+ systems devs and one for every spec. 😛
dry night
You've had bad takes for a few days now
steep rampart
I mean it's a two-way street right? It's looking likely the Outlaw set is going to get properly buffed and that's not because someone called it omega trash tier on stream, it's because Guy and others put together numbers showing it was underbudget weeks ago and presented the data appropriately.
dry night
The point is the devs aren't dumb. They don't just look at single target patchwerk sims and balance around that. Nor do they buff something cuz some guy who just got into a world first guild that occasionally plays a spec said it's meh
steep rampart
If devs trust the numbers to be accurate they are more likely to act on them, both ways
molten ore
The point is the devs aren't dumb. They don't just look at single target patchwe...
did i ever say any of that?
no i didn't
i was literally joking and pointing out why it was "Meh" on Max's tier list
steep rampart
Providing knowingly false information is a good way to just get ignored in the future in my experience. 😛
molten ore
yeah it's also just going to hurt the majority of people's perception of sin going into next tier
i wasn't ever trying to agree with or praise what he did, hence why i'm confused at the reaction some give
steep rampart
Like I'm kinda sure at some point everyone is gonna eye roll the next time Tettles says a legendary or set for Balance is bad on stream for the next few years after the whole Venthyr "it's not even very good, it's just burst" debacle. 🤣
dry night
Yeah I think that's how stuff like that usually ends up
Boy who cried wolf reversed type of reputation where nobody takes what you say seriously any more
raw thunder
sup blades
molten ore
LOL
wooden wharf
This is even more reason to sell NFTs for sims so we can ensure on the blockchai...
great idea
lets spend my last 60$ on savings to cretae a 9.2 nft
nova solstice
For buffs and nerfs, it's all business imo. Buffing which class could possibly attract more players back into this game? If this kind of question comes to play, the answer may be bluish.
proper veldt
But hunter sucks right now and it’s by far the most played class
So your tinfoil argument kind of shatters instantly with no need for historical data
desert hull
weary nacelle
It also feels really really really bad on some bosses
You wanna slam vend as much as you can because of potential lost casts, downtime makes it feel really bad.
Also multi targeting feels STRESSFUL. Like last phase of Pantheon
weary nacelle
You've had bad takes for a few days now
Remember when he said that sins primary strength wasn't prio/boss dam?
dry night
na i dont remember stuff like that tbh. it's chill
pearl maple
isnt dusk not like spending energy? so even with downtime you can just fok??
proper veldt
Sure
steep rampart
I mean won't really be as effective since without DoTs up our energy regen is awful, but yeah it's worth considering if you're running Dusk and have full downtime doing some mechanic you may wanna burn with FoK casts
weary nacelle
Also multi targeting feels STRESSFUL. Like last phase of Pantheon
you said this and im getting stressed thinking about it
weary nacelle
isnt dusk not like spending energy? so even with downtime you can just fok??
Yeah. But as Koji said, you're losing all of your Regen from dots (and the sped up pace of dots during vend) during downtime, which can be a big deal.
Super hypothetical since it was testing but like, on artificer mythic testing, we had our whole DPS team go to the platforms when they popped up. This happens early enough in the fight that you'd hold vend on the boss itself, which then also reduces your overall energy regen and later casts.
Ultimately I'm sure that won't be the strategy on live (and it wasn't the optimal strategy on testing I'm sure), but as a general example, I get sweaty palms over the thought of sitting on vendetta for too long, thinking about missing an entire cast during a fight for it
Final phase of Pantheon was also weird. With 4 targets and running CT it felt like there was never a good moment to use envenom, which meant you risk SnD falling. And keeping up full dots on 4targets is sketchy.
yeah the little bit i tested i noticed I was greeding for envenom a bit too much
nova solstice
So your tinfoil argument kind of shatters instantly with no need for historical ...
Thinking about m+ and the legendary bow and the cool quiver and new pet and ohhhhh
And what I said is IF this kind of questions come to play, I didn't say that is exactly the question. Nevertheless blz can justify their buff or nerfs based on many metrics.
pale roost
ptr
Wha-ha-haat? Are you saying that Survi hunters with their 200k aoe pulls will get nerfed???? no way :O
Sub rogues 23%+ tier set will get nerfed???
but legit
stop looking at ptr numbers altogether
never, ever, ever compare numbers in ptr
they mean literally nothing
raw thunder
he has spoken!
wooden wharf
cev has a good point, peope got burned way to often from this
you saw it happen in the sl beta too, when people thought subtlety was the best thing ever
even tho simulations did paint a different picture and logs too once there was enough data
rose grail
would be nice to see more raid testing done with 2L
rapid tree
wise blade
At the end, they finally swapped set piece to tokens drop @steep rampart alleluhia
weary nacelle
never, ever, ever compare numbers in ptr
How else will we get enh nerfed?
That spec flying so under the radar it's crazy
wooden wharf
i don't think that blizz is blind
they are well aware that survial or other things are too strong on ptr
pale roost
I am genuinely shocked I don't see more mention of how giga enh is.
Probably not in the rogue discord
but I can assure you that it's being talked about very openly everywhere
But it's not even the worst of the bunch
weary nacelle
In general. I see lots of whining about sin and surv but haven't seen much about enh
pale roost
there's plenty other specs which are downright broken, overpowered or awful
got all colors of the rainbow
pale roost
In general. I see lots of whining about sin and surv but haven't seen much about...
sin?
weary nacelle
Yep
pale roost
not sure which forums you go to
the only complaints I see are in here
everyone else thinks it's shit because of Max and JPC
weary nacelle
Mostly in game/guild discords
Either super randomly non representative sample, but a handful of guilds in the 50-80 range are bitchin
steep rampart
That spec flying so under the radar it's crazy
Yeah, like Feral and Survival, I'm sure the DOZENS of Enhance/Feral/Survival players will dominate meters 😄
weary nacelle
I've never seen feral mentioned as OP but it's so big
steep rampart
Feral has been OP for the entire xpac
weary nacelle
Tbh just makes me wanna play feral but RL won't let me
steep rampart
Doesn't mean anyone is gonna play it
weary nacelle
I know :(
weary nacelle
I wish more people ran ferals
steep rampart
You should want Enhance to be good
weary nacelle
Well run an enhance regardless tbh, our enh is cracked beyond belief
steep rampart
Because certainly there are still going to be a small number of Enhance players and it's best if they are strong enough to be included in raid comp without us having to beg 😛
weary nacelle
I get that feral has no utility, but there hasn't been a ton of mandatory soak shit these past two tiers, I'm surprised more people haven't opted for a feral over like...a rogue
steep rampart
Enhance has basically been unplayable for infinite xpacs in a row at this point it seems like, so I don't really think anyone is overly concerned if they have some time where they are strong
weary nacelle
True enough I guess. Our enh has been core for ages but they're just unbelievably good
weary nacelle
Who are they putting??????
Unless it's all arms warriors or you're playing bad, that sounds wrong
steep rampart
Stop letting DHs con people into thinking they are good in WFT groups
weary nacelle
You should be in over the dks and rets unless you're playing bad as fuck
molten ore
"we don't care about your dps or parses we have more than enough dps to farm"
dry night
Yeah DH wft gains are so overinflated it's dumb
molten ore
the tank that arranges the groups just doesn't care
he just puts people in it
we don't have an enh rn anyway
weary nacelle
Our tank puts himself in wft over the DHs and DKs.
molten ore
i'll prolly play it myself if we go that route
steep rampart
The only spec that it's better for than Rogues are Arms Warriors. And Feral is about equal to Rogue.
molten ore
we all know the values n shit, they just dgaf lol
dry night
But yeah just reading up a bit, we shouldn't be upset enh is good. Obviously yes it should be balanced down from where it is a bit but I'm glad it seems like it'll be tuned highish
molten ore
yeah i'm hoping it's good tbh i like playing it
i was almost enhance main this tier until i guild hopped
dry night
Like in no world you would take more than 2 enh anyways so we don't have to worry about our melee slots being taken by them, if anything it being tuned high increases the chance of taking a bit more melee
raw thunder
sup trickz, blades
steep rampart
Meta CDR is real except when it's not
scenic saddle
is meta even a real cd
steep rampart
They're gonna have significant fight length breakpoints just like in Nighthold
scenic saddle
molten ore
Na DH is gonna be solid I think. Meta cdr is too real
except is does literally 0% gain in fights 6 minutes or under
dry night
How
dry night
I was seeing it down to 2mins or was that fake
molten ore
it'll be good if you want to burst something around the 3 minute mark
but meh
i don't know that's not what i've seen and heard
dry night
It's not really about burst it's more about just being in meta the whole fight with demonic
molten ore
nah i think maybe it was nerfed or something? no idea
you're definitely not in meta the whole fight or every 2 min
dry night
I'll have to mess around with mine on ptr. Can never trust what dhs say these days so I'm not surprised I got bad info
molten ore
our dh stays pretty well informed i think
steep rampart
I mean I do SimC for Havoc in addition to Rogues so... 😄
dry night
Well I trust you Koji lol that's not what I meant
molten ore
hahaha
steep rampart
Rogues also said they were getting Vendetta down to 45s too
People love overestimating CDR 😄
molten ore
yeah i'm not sure about that lmao
i haven't actually tested it as NF so i have no idea
but isn't like 55 seconds max?
steep rampart
Whispyr went on a bit of a rant about it when he did a bunch of testing and found people were saying a whole lotta bullshiiiit 😄
dry night
Well uhh ackkktually you can as venthyr with PI and lust
steep rampart
🤣
dry night
But yeah I was there
steep rampart
But either way, regardless of the CD like the value for Havoc will vary pretty significantly with the exact fight length
Depending on if they get an extra use
dry night
Ye
steep rampart
Just like the legendary in Legion
molten ore
But either way, regardless of the CD like the value for Havoc will vary pretty s...
yeah that makes me think that particular bonus is actually kind of troll
steep rampart
Sometimes it'll be big, other times it'll be smol. Just don't really know yet
molten ore
it sounds really good but it could be useless for some fights :\
steep rampart
Yeah I think they tried to offset it with the increased Meta duration also
But that's such a mild effect
dry night
Also separate I think dhs get a bit obsessed with certain builds and forget about other options that they have
steep rampart
DHs have a number of possible builds atm but it changed a lot when they redesigned the bonus
With the original bonus design they were looking at a Chaos Theory build as being the only real thing that made sense, but now it's a little more open again
Then again I do think the new set bonus is omega boring too, so it's kinda a shame in a way
rose grail
@steep rampart you must have missed the secret paywalled APL from kib for 2 minute meta. 
steep rampart
Kinda went from a design trying to react to people wanting to press Blade Dance more (since it's been a shit button in SL) but then they compromised and made it +CS and BD damage which brings Havoc right back to not caring about BD at all again.
Think most were hoping for something that changed the rotation in some way, either pushing BD or pushing something unused like Throw Glaive again (Bloodlet concept)
But just ended up being passive damage increase, no rotation change
🤷♂️
dry night
Yeah instead it's looking like eyebeam spam again
rose grail
that discord loses its shit anytime you say momentum best
dry night
Must be rough having so many viable talent builds to chose from
steep rampart
I mean Havoc sims have a lot of really close build setups and it's a pain in my ass when testing stuff
For Rogues I never have to check any talents at all 🤣
dry night
Exactly
rose grail
i wish we had that issue
dry night
Which is good for you but makes me sadge sometimes
rose grail
set it and forget it 6 years running.
steep rampart
Outlaw probably could have gotten away with the same talent build for at least 3 xpacs with it either being optimal or close
wooden wharf
For Rogues I never have to check any talents at all 🤣
nigthstalker on venthyr/subtlety 
steep rampart
Assassination had a mini fight between Deeper/Blindside and Vigor/EP
For a while
Glad that is over
🤣
dry night
Ye same
steep rampart
Not that it ever made any significant difference though lol
rose grail
i’m sure it did to someone.
dry night
I never minded blindsided like some people seemed to
molten ore
watch everyone still play EP/Vigor
"bEcAuSe 70% oF pEoPlE oN wCl UsE iT sO iTs BeTtERRRRrrrrr"
dry night
Ehhh with no flag, deeper doesn't feel as bad in opener
molten ore
and sepsis also gives cp as well doesn't it
dry night
Yeah
dry night
1
proper veldt
For Rogues I never have to check any talents at all 🤣
Stay vigilant, crimson tempest is always lurking koji. Do not let the red army win. We must hold the lines against the cringe amber winds
But also like
steep rampart
lol
steep rampart
tru
proper veldt
Make me want to kms
steep rampart
I mean DS talents are still like "Just make sure you have CT otherwise mash talents blindfolded and you're good"
proper veldt
When in doubt go straight down the middle you gon be aight
sacred sonnet
nigthstalker on venthyr/subtlety <:pepe_smoke:854628541085909002>
I want to move through Legacy raids quickly, fuu 
steep rampart
Like mostly we end up debating about the first three tiers but like
Those talent tiers actually mostly suck
molten ore
HB confirmed. Recommend by whispyeereer
steep rampart
Compared to a lot of DPS talent tiers some of our choices are like
So meaningless really
molten ore
yeah it's kind of a let down tbh
proper veldt
Honestly should just copy paste well received tier sets as talents
molten ore
hopefully they make some decent changes in 10.0
steep rampart
You can pick the WORST possible combination of the first 3 rows
proper veldt
No dev time needed
steep rampart
And only be -4.5%
dry night
Venom rush ?
steep rampart
Master Poisoner + Nightstalker + Vigor hype
proper veldt
If alacrity wasn’t so huge venom rush is actually probably good
But like the fact that alacrity wins out even if you got like 150% haste
Is pretty silly
dry night
Yeah
steep rampart
I mean we did convince Sephuz to buff Venom Rush by like over double in SL beta.. but competing with Alacrity is a lost cause
proper veldt
Add double dose to venom rush
dry night
10% haste basically for free is just nuts
proper veldt
Call it a day
dry night
Combine MP and venom rush ?
steep rampart
But anyway the fact that you could pick 3 non-optimal talents in the top 3 row and only drop 2.5-4.5% DPS is either very good or bad depending on how you look at it
Technically I guess there are options
But that's just by virtue of them being meaningless
Not because they are equally "strong"
The first 3 tiers just contribute very little DPS
rose grail
you’re already getting carried as assa in keys. why not make it 4-5% worse. 
dry night
Well yeah it'd be a but different if stuff was 2.5-4.5% worse but fulfilled a niche use case
But like, just being 4% worse for no reason is dumb
steep rampart
Like kinda wild to think that if you compared the DPS difference between someone who didn't socket any of their gear
And someone who literally never clicked any talents in the first 3 tiers
it'd be about the same
rose grail
meaningful choice
steep rampart
So yeah it's a tough one, it's hard to make them fulfill a niche when they aren't impactful either
That's why we just tend to go with the energy ones as a default initially because energy actually does something
Then towards the end of an xpac it doesn't matter so the value falls away
rose grail
i really hope at some point they actually look at talents across all specs.
just get a good base kit
doesn’t have to be amazing, just not shit
rose grail
assa is getting gloomblade from sub and sub is getting hemo. all fixed.
10.0 talent tuning
winged zephyr
If they add back armor pen as rogue utility I wouldn’t be mad.
desert hull
🤔
azure pilot
If they add back armor pen as rogue utility I wouldn’t be mad.
shroud to skip directly to last few bosses
weary nacelle
Well uhh ackkktually you can as venthyr with PI and lust
Do you even faeries
proper veldt
Fae Sync Logic found here: <#916546791472783371 message>
@nova solstice @azure pilot
gonna repin everything
dry night
weary night
gonna repin everything
why you gotta repin everything? is fae sync logic that intense? 
proper veldt
No
I just get questions
All the time
Worth a pin
But I don’t want it at the top
weary night
true 👍
azure pilot
why you gotta repin everything? is fae sync logic that intense? <:monkaW:6756918...
9.2 belongs to fae assa
weary nacelle
Cleaning with set feels so weird
Cleave*
can’t apply garrotte to anything else cause vendetta >_>
dry night
Well you can garrote one other thing but yeah it's rough
pine karma
Sin will always be overshadowed by sub on trash though, blacksand to stronk
nova solstice
So far Sins' set would be the most interesting one only compared to OL and Sub, itself is still boring imho. They really need to think out of the box. I was thinking something like after shiv your melee attacks on a target with bleeding and poison spill poisoned blood to all nearby targets...
rose grail
so useless in ST?
or am I missing something.
the set isn’t crazy, but it changes up the spec’s play which is nice. end of the day assa rogue gonna be assa rogue.
nova solstice
all nearby targets, which means also useful in ST
the set is not impressive but changes your play for some reason. They claim it solves some problem in aoe, but at the end of the day it does quite limited.
rose grail
if you’re looking for an aoe powerhouse it’s not going to be this spec. low key you can probably do some nice gameplay with necro and the set in aoe
having a utility cd tied to dps is more of a worry to me
scenic saddle
de-enraging is someone else's job
nova solstice
It is not about what i want. if i have to say it, it is like they know how to give power aoe to a spec that does not do good aoe, but now it give you something sweet but the problem remains.
rose grail
de-enraging is someone else's job
rogues complain about utility and when given it they don’t use it.
nova solstice
apparently you will say it is not even close to the end of the ptr. i do agree. however, their attitude certainly gives ass sin a limitation here -- the instant nerf, while keeping other specs continuing with their numbers to test.
stiff fossil
rogues complain about utility and when given it they don’t use it. <:kekw:610125...
Tying a soothe to a 25s cd is toxic
Almost a toxic blade if you will
I’ll be here all week
rose grail
Tying a soothe to a 25s cd is toxic
miss this? >having a utility cd tied to dps is more of a worry to me
stiff fossil
miss this? >having a utility cd tied to dps is more of a worry to me
I can’t read you know this
rose grail
and your joke was toxic
rose grail
shiv doing what it does is just bad design, but apparently assa had too many buttons coming out of bfa
nova solstice
maybe the logic is like when multiple/stacked enraged buffs need to be dispelled, eventually it will be dispelled by shiv.
rose grail
that take and that logic both need to get fired
scenic saddle
but 9.2 comes and that's off the table
rose grail
or just let shiv be utility and give an actual cd back to assa
molten ore
Hard agree
weary nacelle
It is not about what i want. if i have to say it, it is like they know how to gi...
I'd rather have my set bonus improve my strengths and my niche than cover my weaknesses and make me a jack of all trades
rose grail
just wait for the tuning to take place again. snapshotting go poof could change a lot or nothing. welcome to ptr roller coaster. strap it in and enjoy the ride.
lone owl
why you gotta repin everything? is fae sync logic that intense? <:monkaW:6756918...
yes now have to use brain instead of hitting glowy buttons on cd
raw thunder
shit man
i was just hoping i could press wasd and get CE
now u tellin me i gotta press wasd 123 too?!?!
nova solstice
I'd rather have my set bonus improve my strengths and my niche than cover my wea...
exactly on the point, id like to say. Certainly the nerfed version of 2p is still powerful, but on a general perspective Sin lost its great impression on aoe after the nerf. In this case, while players like me started to wonder if blz really want to give Sin a try on aoe, more are looking at ST situation and how Sin doing in that. is it going to be a well balanced jack of all trades, or Sin is losing some edge on ST and getting not enough in aoe.
proper veldt
sin aoe will never be giga
that's not just in the design of the spec
but the single target power from the tier is crazy
pale roost
And a good thing is that we will be playing almost identical talents in m+ that we would in the raid
proper veldt
so in that regard, the tier does play to the strengths tbh
pale roost
so we don't lose much power in m+ compared to raid
nova solstice
ok, this is interesting to hear.
mint current
also it seems scari will try and push deathspike fixes
that can end up really well for m+ assa
as most of the dungeons where assa is decent even the bosses have adds for resets SoA, ToP, Plaguefall
rose grail
also it seems scari will try and push deathspike fixes
where or what gave you that impression
scenic saddle
where or what gave you that impression
scari on wow general asking for a detailed list of deathspike bugs and saying he'd talk to the team about it.
rose grail
scari on wow general asking for a detailed list of deathspike bugs and saying he...
Ah neat. The hastag movement is working
sacred sonnet
Soon Necro will be the play in 9.2 and we'll be talking about Heirmir windows or something.
rose grail
kevin uptime 😄
sacred sonnet
thin torrent
necro hidden op in 9.2 
azure pilot
Night fae supremacy
rose grail
Night fae supremacy<:starege:923197272064426075>
until it’s nerfed.
rose grail
we’ve been on this hype train wreck more than once before. 
rose grail
have to see if those 4pc gains stay or not
rose grail
oh it’s good, but you have a 4pc outside their target range (which probably needs it), but you know. numbers
molten ore
How is the 4pc outside their target range?
rose grail
18% gain total
molten ore
Ours? No way
rose grail
again, not saying it doesnt need it, but when people just look at numbers that is what it breaks down to.
could be worse. could be warlocks and their 2% gain from 2L 
wooden wharf
18% gain total
rly depends on how you look at it
the 18% is assuming no change in legendary choice
rose grail
you also don’t have a legendary choice
much like some other specs. there’s one that works
wooden wharf
yes, but the tier set value esp. early on will depend on your legendary choide.
And given that you pmuch just go dusk with 4p, you can suddenly look at these values:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jKc7phLfYaN7DsEwhTUo3G/simc
with 4p suddenly being +25% dps, similar to subtlety
rose grail
how they decide to balance it all out is on them.
other classes don’t have that gain happening.
wooden wharf
yes but this matters for early progressin
knowing that assassinaiton gets far more value when switching legendary
it means the incentive to get the tier set on assassination is higher than on others
rose grail
that’s not what was being discussed. it was legit that the 4pc set is higher than other classes. gear prioritizing wasn’t part of any of this
wooden wharf
oh, i must have misunderstood the question then
molten ore
other classes don’t have that gain happening.
Other classes have better bases, or way better legendaries combinations/choices.
wooden wharf
i mean the big issue atm is that the baseline of assassination is fairly low compared to e.g. subtlety
rose grail
which I eluded to. so if they just go off the set it should be nerfed, but if they only do that without any other adjustments it’s not good
molten ore
Early prog with sin will be a little meh looking at current numbers. Getting your tier will have a huge impact.
rose grail
this for example is arms 4p and arms 4p+2L
molten ore
Yeah they’re trying to keep most sets in the ~10% range as far as it seems
rose grail
that’s why on its own assa looks like an outlier.
wooden wharf
early numbers iirc whispyr did say was 10-12%
stiff fossil
Bruh shards were so much dps wtf
rose grail
just needs someone running through a spreadsheet looking at isolated numbers out of the range.
wooden wharf
but its unclear if this is still the case, things like this could change on a weekly base
molten ore
Bruh shards were so much dps wtf
Yeah some specs got 10%+
wooden wharf
domination was rly big for sin/outlaw
stiff fossil
We get double leggo and tier set and do the same damage that we did in 9.1
rose grail
Bruh shards were so much dps wtf
you are your frozen farts 🥶 💨
stiff fossil
wooden wharf
i agree oxi, it feels weird
stiff fossil
I just want this awful expansion over with
molten ore
We get double leggo and tier set and do the same damage that we did in 9.1
Now you see why I’ve had some ”hot takes” lately
stiff fossil
I’m over torghast, legendaries, anima
wooden wharf
9.2 might be a decent/good patch
rose grail
end of the day if the specs are better I don’t care if the details and sim numbers are lower if it’s across the board.
stiff fossil
Bring on the new stupid grinds
molten ore
Same same same
stiff fossil
9.2 might be a decent/good patch
It’s sort of expected at this point, mediocre expansion good last patch
molten ore
end of the day if the specs are better I don’t care if the details and sim numbe...
I mean that ruins the entire feeling of progressing your player power in an MMO
Kinda troll if you ask me
wooden wharf
last patch of a xpac is always better tho given that devs had time to iterate over things
its just that a new xpac always starts fron 0
stiff fossil
I’m glad we got the 9.1.5 when we did. Waiting for it to come in 9.2 would’ve tilted me
rose grail
no? it ruins a sim. if your killing the boss who has health also adjusted it’s just some addon saying you lost power. tell me how winds of winter feels powerful
tell me how blood link is a feeling of power
molten ore
Umm it makes giant numbers pop up on my screen
stiff fossil
Shards were so poorly implemented
rose grail
playing uh around the shards? impacts game play sure. powerful? idk
stiff fossil
Tying that much player power into a grind with no catchup is weird
molten ore
no? it ruins a sim. if your killing the boss who has health also adjusted it’s j...
The entire point of gearing and progressing your character is to do a higher damage output. It has nothing to do with sims or add ons lmao
rose grail
you’ll notice TO going off with speed of play more than anything those offered.
stiff fossil
I mean we already feel the player progression out in the world
With or without shards
rose grail
numbers aren’t the only gauge of power, popping off every 60 seconds vs 120 you are now more powerful twice as often.
if all you care about is the crits on screen. sorry it will probably be worse for you
wow is a seasonal mmo until they change their systems approach. welcome to the new season and redoing power
molten ore
Yeah but what’s the point in doing all the grinding, farming and upgrading gear, etc etc if you aren’t going to keep becoming more powerful?
rose grail
to complete the seasonal goals, which for many in here is CE
molten ore
Going backwards 10% the instant you go into a new raid is just bad design for an MMO, period.
rose grail
so you rather they keep dom shards, force you to that content to max those out on alts, and tune everything harder while locking loot slots with dom shards, tier and 2 legos? or do a soft reset that should make player power easier to acquire for causals and alts
which sounds like bad design?
wooden wharf
Shards were so poorly implemented
domination was just double rng in aquirement, 9.2 seem to improve on that a bit
rose grail
they had a failure with domination shards. they have to rip that bandaid off. maybe new players don’t remember mixing old tier sets because of power levels.
what was it hunters running around with 2T18+2T19+2T20. good times for them farming old raids. lol
molten ore
so you rather they keep dom shards, force you to that content to max those out o...
Anything that feels better than just straight up being stripped of the power you worked hard to get
molten ore
¯_(ツ)_/¯
raw thunder
seemed just like an awful concept
ur also a psychopath u down to do that kinda content lmfao
i dig that
maybe if it wasnt so gross when it came to having alts it'd be kinda cool
molten ore
I mean no, but the deed is already done
Don’t blame for the shit system we had to deal with
raw thunder
plus yeah at that point ur giga loot locked and imo that kinda feels shit
nah ur fault bro u shoulda stopped blizzard
what were u doing zzzz
molten ore
Lolol
wooden wharf
they had a failure with domination shards. they have to rip that bandaid off. ma...
mixing tier sets was also a thing due to lower itemlevel jumps (also titanforging)
rose grail
legion
i may have the tiers off, and hunters were always interesting with what they had going on.
molten ore
Tbh I think Classic and BC had the best player power progression pathing to ever be in this game. You had to begin raiding from the first raid of the expansion even in the last patch.
wooden wharf
That would be great if raids would be preserved well throughout the xpac
molten ore
Exactly. The content is basically thrown to the wayside once a new raid comes out. It’s tragic.
wooden wharf
but reality is, that does not work out well as it only ends up in getting carried for equipment
thick star
are they really looking at 
?
rose grail
they said they are but no promises
thick star
i'm gonna cry if they make it affected by 2pc AND 4pc set
and i didn't say from where
wooden wharf
the necro legendary def. need changes to make the covenant strong
tho not sure how bad it is in multi target/aoe for assassination
wooden wharf
that is kind of my point, it could end up rly strong if they buff the legendary
versed rivet
I wouldn’t mind necro being the go to for low target cleave for assassination.
wooden wharf
isn't it the go to already?
weak kettle
They could do a flat % increase on sbs dmg. If it's one one tgt, let's say 50% increased dmg. If sbs is on 5 tgts, each sbs gets 10% increased. Sum is 50%. This way dmg on aoe doesn't get out of control in relation to other covenants
versed rivet
For m+ yes It can be ok. Lose a lot of ST value though
weak kettle
And it gets "fixed" on st
versed rivet
Was thinking in terms of a fight like pantheon would assassination run necro
wraith sphinx
ye
the legendary makes the ability unplayable
youre better off playing 1 legendary
than 2
rose grail
that’s what they call meaningful choice, right? 
versed rivet
Adding energy regen per deathspiked target 
Well no more targets more energy that contradicts
severe verge
I saw someone mention the 2p and
I could be a liar but I am 99% sure you just have to be in range of the unit when you hit shiv
Bc it applies a debuff at that moment; the debuff doesn’t go away if you move after the fact
So sepsis shiv should always work
rose grail
it worked if I was in range of unit when I was messing with it last week
severe verge
what does that sentence mean
rose grail
apologies brain fart.
severe verge
yeah, I just mean if y’all find that you DoT + Shiv, and then walk away, that they take less dmg from the dot at any point that’s a bug
wraith sphinx
At least in keys it sometimes simply wouldnt apply the debuff at all. Idk why.
Was kinda frustrating to play when you hit Shiv and it wouldnt apply the 2pc whatsoever
rose grail
I was only dummy testing.
wraith sphinx
And 2pc already works with deathspike, both the initial and the dot. At least it did yday when I tested it again
steep rampart
And 2pc already works with deathspike, both the initial and the dot. At least it...
Yeah 2pc should work with SBS, both spells are in the whitelist
wraith sphinx
now give those whitelists to mastery too so i can have juicy sbs initials 
steep rampart
#1 (id=904845) : Apply Aura (6) | Modify Damage Taken% from Caster's Spells (271)
Base Value: 40 | Scaled Value: 40 | PvP Coefficient: 1.00000 | Radius: 0 - 15 yards | Target: Custom (18) -> AOE enemy (instant) (16)
Affected Spells: Garrote (703), Rupture (1943), Deadly Poison (2818), Deadly Poison (2823), Crippling Poison (3408), Crippling Poison (3409), Deadly Poison (113780), Crimson Tempest (121411), Internal Bleeding (154953), Poison Bomb (255546), Slaughter Poison (323660), Serrated Bone Spike (324073), Serrated Bone Spike (324074), Sepsis (328305), Sepsis (328306), Serrated Bone Spike (328547), Numbing Poison (359078)
Family Flags: 8, 14, 16, 20, 81, 86, 95, 115, 118
steep rampart
There are actually some funny things missing though, not that it's a big deal
wraith sphinx
yeah i mean
almost every assa whitelist has smth missing
think only vendetta has a complete one?
steep rampart
Like Wound Poison and Internal Bleeding
wraith sphinx
IB one will be important for pvp tho
steep rampart
But it's not a major issue in this case
wraith sphinx
for example
steep rampart
For PvE
But yes both are potentially an issue for PvP
Oh actually I lied, looks like Internal Bleeding was added
Just Wound Poison missing I guess 😄
Also random things like legendaries, but not really sure what's intended there (e.g. Doomblade was mentioned in the original blue post but not affected)
Or Bloodfang
(Although that one is a lost cause at this point probably)
wraith sphinx
yeah. the problem with it, is that the wording makes the player think theres internal consistency, but then there isnt. i.e. i personally dont see a difference between sbs and CT. both are spells with initial hits and a bleed component. yet one of them gets boosted by zoldyck/mastery and the other doesnt. both get boosted by vendetta/2pc
steep rampart
Yeah the inconsistency across Shiv/Mastery/Zoldyck/2pc is definitely unintuitive
Or something like Dashing
"increases the critical strike chance of your poisons"
Increases the crit chance of Envenom
But 2pc doesn't increase Envenom damage
wraith sphinx
tooltips have never been particularly informative in wow anyway, but i still think its an issue for a new player who doesnt wanna read up on information outside of the game, and thus lacks the understanding of what affects what
steep rampart
It's definitely something hard to follow if you're trying to make sense of it
wraith sphinx
sometimes we have slight updates to tooltips, like MP stating "weapon poisons" instead of just poisons
steep rampart
And if you look at say Dashing
#3 (id=159997) : Apply Aura (6) | Add Flat Modifier (107): Spell Critical Chance (7)
Base Value: 0 | Scaled Value: 0 | PvP Coefficient: 1.00000 | Misc Value: 7 | Target: Self (1)
Affected Spells: Deadly Poison (2818), Deadly Poison (2823), Wound Poison (8679), Wound Poison (8680), Envenom (32645), Deadly Poison (113780), Poison Bomb (255546), Slaughter Poison (323660)
Family Flags: 16, 28, 35, 66, 86
That's what it considers "poisons"
wraith sphinx
ye
steep rampart
Then 2pc excludes Envenom, but has Sepsis
It's just kinda random
Although I understand why some of these things are
wraith sphinx
its just the downside of these whitelists, isnt it
steep rampart
Definitely makes it difficult to follow if you're not looking at the data
wraith sphinx
you gotta make sure that every new ability gets its spell ID added to every ability that has one
and theres a lot of them, at this point
steep rampart
Yeah that is why they moved to the family flags, but can even see in this case it's easy to miss something like Wound Poison family from 2pc for example
wraith sphinx
ye
certainly doesnt help that a spell like SBS has like 3 different spellIDs for different components of the spell
wooden wharf
i don't think you can expect anyone to look at spelldata outside of a very small subset of players who usually work on simc/apl
wraith sphinx
i mean
thats not true though is it
we should expect that when a new rental power or ability gets introduced, it scales with the same effects and stats that other skills do that are very similar to it
rose grail
tooltip confusion doesn’t help
wooden wharf
it would be ideal to be obviouse
rose grail
should I be able to assume a trinket that does shadow dmg scales with a spec or do I need to go into a discord to find a person who knows how to find and read the spell data?
wraith sphinx
just look at the sylv daggers for example. its obvious that the person who designed it (we all know who it was), made a conscious decision to add it to the appropriate whitelists. thats thorough and i would expect every new mechanic or situation, to be done with the same level of care and attention to detail. if we "cant expect" that to happen, then what can we expect?
steep rampart
Well I think you and Fuu are basically saying the same thing. Like most players won't dive into the spell data whitelists on wowhead or SimC or w/e so to them, if the tooltip text is ambiguous it's just gonna lead to confusion
People who think Zold works on XYZ but it doesn't
Or Envenom during 2pc because they think it's a poison, etc.
wraith sphinx
if something is being excluded from a whitelist, it shoudl be done deliberately. the assa whitelists dont give me the feeling, that the spells missing from some of them werent just forgotten, but that theres a reason for them not being there
rose grail
if something is being excluded from a whitelist, it shoudl be done deliberately....
more of falling through the cracks?
steep rampart
Can't really expect most players will know how this works under the hood
wraith sphinx
oh yeah ofc. but since we were talking from a design pov, were not talking about players making sure they know all this, but the people designing abilities that need to be added to these whitelists. and they definitely should know (and im guessing most of them do)
its easy to overlook some new ability somewhere, but its frustrating when theres no logical consistency behind what abiltiies work and interact with other abilities in a certain way, especially when theyre part of the same "family"
i.e. i never felt like envenom being affected by TB in legion/bfa made sense, cause the tooltip said "increases the damage of your poisons". i dont consider envenom a poison, idk
steep rampart
Yeah idk, that one is borderline, Evenom was always historically connected with poisons (back in the original design when it consumed DP) and tooltip text is "Finishing move that drives your poisoned blades" so like, I can see how it's just gonna be confusing either way right?
Some people will be "it's not actually a poison" others "well it says poison"
From an intuitive standpoint, probably the easiest from most players' pov is likely nature damage for Rogue == poison
(Otherwise we're Druids, and since we're not Druids, anything we do that is Nature damage must kinda logically be a poison right? lol)
wraith sphinx
yeah, it just didnt make a lot of sense cause MP also buffed poison damage, but not envenom
steep rampart
yeah
wraith sphinx
now that MP is specifically affecting weapon-poisons, its a lot more clear and consistent
steep rampart
That's true
wraith sphinx
but in legion/bfa it wasnt. we had tb and MP both boosting poison dmg, one worked on envenom the other didnt 
steep rampart
Although even that wasn't totally normalized I think
wraith sphinx
and these small changes matter a lot, imo. its now a lot more clear to someone who isnt super knowledgeable on the matters of whitelists etc. that MP will not boost his non-weapon poison dmg
steep rampart
Improved Poisons still says "Increases the application chance of your poisons" instead of "weapon poisons" but I get it's hard to keep up on all this stuff 😄
wraith sphinx
yeah
im still not sure if i evne like poisons being a proc chance
its very frustrating, especially on aoe with crippling
dunno if much would be lost if youd just normalize the damage around 100% procchance and give envenom a different kind of temporary damage buff that makes maintaining it a high prio
severe verge
yeah a lot of this stuff is tough bc like. design intent for one single spell or feature doesn’t always apply across the class. sometimes that’s intended and sometimes it isn’t; in the case of stuff like shiv’s 2p and 4p - it’s designed and budgeted for ‘periodic effects applied by the rogue’ bc that’s the part of the fantasy we’re enhancing
so there’s a weird space of like ok, to the average player what’s the easiest way to explain that generally - poisons and bleeds
but then as you say there’s things for balance or other reasons that previously have counted as poisons that don’t here and vice versa, and so
on one hand there’s an argument of inconsistency - but on the other it’s like, should these bonuses be a ton weaker because they follow the functional definition of poisons (that many players don’t intuit) or should they follow the written definition
wraith sphinx
Yeah, from a players side the biggest issue I think is that its easy to fall into a cynical trap when something doesn't work as expected/advertised and say "oh, they just forgot about it, our spec would be so much better if they fix that bug"
severe verge
in the end, I try to focus on things that make sense as you play with them - not everything has to make perfect sense instantly, but if after a small period with the new Thing you can figure out ‘oh this works, this doesn’t’ that’s sort of good enough for me
It’s a bummer when something appears to be a bug or feels lower quality bc it’s worked on by different people with different goals for sure - it’s not ideal
wraith sphinx
Yeah, people often seem to forget that if these "bugs" (if you can even call them that) are fixed, the spec would be tuned to make up for it anyway. In the case of Assa, I'd welcome that, frankly, cause I don't like playing a spec with a 51% aura buff
severe verge
like sylvanas daggers were just going to say finishing moves and not damaging finishing moves because - you will get so many procs with these that you’ll be able to observe that behavior even if you aren’t using addons over time
and it’s not like you’d ever want to fish for using Slice n Dice weirdly to proc it anyways, so you’ll note it and be like ‘ok I get it’
wraith sphinx
Mhye
severe verge
anyways that’s just my approach to it. sometimes you can tooltip and make stuff that doesn’t have a level of weirdness or complexity and it just always makes sense yknow
I don’t want anyone to be like BUT HE SAID -
But like there’s some trinkets in 9.2 that only sort of explain what they do
and that’s bc like. think about how often you use a trinket after you get it
A lot, right
you will figure out how it works pretty quickly
proper veldt
IQD 
feral echo
its in a macro half the time 😄
molten ore
IQD <:SMH:887994777595965472>
severe verge
I mean IQD is pretty wild for that tbh but also it’s so unique I let it slide
I don’t think anything in 9.2 will be that wild but more like
The jailer trinket
proper veldt
Gotta write a dissertation on iqd effects
molten ore
Honestly I like the idea of some trinkets being more intriguing, rather than just cut and dry “this does x damage”
sterile swift
There will be no inscrutable chad device slander here mr. whíspyr
proper veldt
Yeah interesting is good
rose grail
soul cap part two
severe verge
It feels a lot cooler to say ‘you apply a rune to yourself, which is good and bad’ and then you look at it like ‘uhhhhh’ bc the moment you or someone puts it on
You’ll get it
sterile swift
molten ore
severe verge
but the alternative is like - okay I write paragraphs and get messy in a little frame
feral echo
do we turn into Goku
molten ore
Ss3 for sure
severe verge
and now the mystery of this sort of end boss trinket is gone, and it’s not clear the replacement is better
sterile swift
So no change?
molten ore
LOL
proper veldt
Thanks scarizard for enforcing parse culture
stiff fossil
So no change?
in-game hostile, not just emotionally hostile
severe verge
Equip: affix a domination rune to yourself, getting your ass beat in the QRTs
proper veldt
sterile swift
Ahhh thanks for the clarification oxi 
stiff fossil
Ahhh thanks for the clarification oxi <:yejoice:591717432087806000>
that's what I'm here for friend
well that and answering "how much haste do I need" questions over and over and over again
sterile swift
Yeah :^)
molten ore
Is there any shot that SBS sees any kind of ST help? I’m assuming no as it sort of fills its own niche 
severe verge
anyways. hopefully that all makes sense. if there’s things that 1) are inconsistent and don’t make sense when you read them and 2) are also confusing after spending time with the effect then to me that’s not what we’d want. but sometimes 2) is a useful tool is all
rose grail
@stiff fossil how much crit do I need?
sterile swift
What’s our stat priority for 9.2 mr. oxi? I have to know right now, before any and all announcements 
stiff fossil
<@192059095279337473> how much crit do I need?
yes
stiff fossil
What’s our stat priority for 9.2 mr. oxi? I have to know right now, before any a...
stack vers because vers increases damage done, and more damage is good
sterile swift
proper veldt
anyways. hopefully that all makes sense. if there’s things that 1) are inconsist...
I’m catching up a little but people were talking bugged set?
Is that a thing
severe verge
like the jailer mace. no shot am I writing every possible buff you’d get there bc it’s less exciting, looks bad, and doesn’t change your gameplay. All u gotta know is hit soul get money
severe verge
oh this was more just like inconsistency with what’s a poison for the tier set and what’s a poison for other effects
wraith sphinx
I think IQD is perfectly fine. At first its surprising, but it doesnt take much to figure out how and why it works
stiff fossil
I have yes. is it 36% yes or 40% yes?
117.3473%
proper veldt
Oh I see
wraith sphinx
So playing around it is not that difficult, unless you have HOW ARE YOU OOOM situations
severe verge
yeah I don’t wanna see IQDs forever but it’s the kind of item that made me want to work making cool items lmao
stiff fossil
So playing around it is not that difficult, unless you have HOW ARE YOU OOOM si...
I have a clip of gromnak screaming "HOW ARE YOU OOM" like 80 times
stiff fossil
i saw on a youtube video it’s 36%
tell infexious his video's wrong already
wraith sphinx
Yes, thats what I was referring to 😄
proper veldt
I thought something broke and I’d have to curse your name to the wowhead heavens
You’re safe for now scarizard
sterile swift
i saw on a youtube video it’s 36%
34 actually
severe verge
Yaya I’m just waking up and wasting time
sterile swift
Glad you’re here mr. scarizard (no ping) 
stiff fossil
Yes, thats what I was referring to 😄
I just want you to know that I read that in his voice
proper veldt
Glad you’re here mr. scarizard (no ping) <:happybear:629579632349413387>
Very cool yoppa
wraith sphinx
The rune makes everyone in your raid hostile to you
thanks for the spoiler
sterile swift
Let me hit two @s rq dw
pale roost
#remove-externals
molten ore
Glad you’re here mr. scarizard (no ping) <:happybear:629579632349413387>
I’m glad you’re here quake (yes ping)
stiff fossil
Very cool yoppa
but I'm sad I can't exploit a bug for higher numbers so I can get a bigger number than other people now 
sterile swift
nothing else matters when externals are in the game
Winds crit %, checkmate
proper veldt
pale roost
Winds crit %, checkmate
gone
stiff fossil
im about to main kyrian druid next tier to make fat gold
pale roost
next
stiff fossil
WTS Kyrian Link, PST
stiff fossil
Did you see my winds crit yesterday cev? I played sin on 2 bosses
no, and neither did you
wraith sphinx
what winds crit?
stiff fossil
molten ore
#remove-externals
#buffdeathspikeST
wraith sphinx
pale roost
Did you see my winds crit yesterday cev? I played sin on 2 bosses
I didn't no, I'm guessing it was nutty
stiff fossil
I didn't no, I'm guessing it was nutty
solid 0%
sterile swift
Opposite
stiff fossil
pale roost
LUL
stiff fossil
I'm not allowed to play sub, otherwise seli won't let me out of his basement dungeon anymore
wraith sphinx
But yeah, I would personally prefer a "cleanup" of all missing whitelists for tooltip consistency, even if it means some abilities hit less hard outside of some of the temporary buffs to make sure the DPS stays the same. Trying to explain to someone which spells are affected by mastery and Shiv and Zoldyck and the setbonus gets really confusing really fast.
"so you have this poison thats not really a poison except for this ability where that other poison thats totally a poison doesnt work btw"
It's more of a cosmetic thing, because it doesn't really matter for performances sake, but I think a lot of people get disproportionally invested into learning these details, assuming that a "deeper understanding" of the spec on that level somehow leads to higher DPS, while more severe issues are overlooked.
steep rampart
On the topic of new trinkets, I do feel like healers are basically gonna stage a walkout once all the DPS start using the rune one to 5 debuffs every pull
😛
molten ore
Lmao
wraith sphinx
Reminds me of Uunat Mastery trinket
steep rampart
I do understand the kiss/curse design principle, but the problem with it in the context of WoW is most of the "curse" is just "healers, keep me up so I can parse" and has almost no responsibility for the player themselves
Corruption was the same way
wraith sphinx
"Do you really need it to last the full 30 seconds?"
"No, but I want it"
steep rampart
If I die, healer's fault
wraith sphinx
Just play leeching poison
steep rampart
And even if I don't die, it's more work for them but I don't really care.
wraith sphinx
steep rampart
Which is more of the problem actually
Because there's no consequence
Other than healers being pissed off
molten ore
Except getting yourself benched
stiff fossil
Except getting yourself benched
just do more damage than everyone else
steep rampart
That's why all DPS will do it in solidarity 🤣
molten ore
just do more damage than everyone else
LOOOL
wraith sphinx
It's gonna suck a bit in Prog, but in farm healers are typically just bored so people taking extra damage isn't something they are gonna be upset about
steep rampart
To some degree I think that's true
But healers did have a lot of conversation around this topic in Nyalotha
wraith sphinx
If you 5healed a boss in Prog, you can bet your ass that by the time you finish the raid, even 4healing it will bore most of those healers
rose grail
it’s wrong perspective Koji, healers need you taking dmg to parse well.
wraith sphinx
Corruption was a bit special though
steep rampart
And I do think the underlying feeling was "it's pretty fucking annoying to be responsible for the curse part of kiss/curse, while DPS get the kiss and we just have to be annoyed by the extra work"
wraith sphinx
Cause it made boss abilities hit harder
steep rampart
Healers by and large don't give a shit about their parse because HPS parses are a meme
wraith sphinx
Having mechanics that make players take a certain amount of damage that has nothing to do with the boss mechanics, is usually fine.
Being unable to avoid a boss mechanic cuz you got corruption slowed, was just annoying, that's true
steep rampart
At the end of the day it basically creates more work and damage patterns for them to deal with with random absorbs or AoE cleaves due to DPS doing bullshit and they have to keep on top of it
And the DPS is just going on their merry way
Being like "cool I'm doing mad deeps"
rose grail
as it should be
wraith sphinx
Depends on how impactful the "curse" side of it really is
It's not like you add another 20k or so damage tick on the entire raid that comes out of nowhere
steep rampart
I feel like unless the curse is "I deal less damage if I do something stupid" DPS players don't care about the curse 😄
wraith sphinx
Irresponsible DPS wont, and who cares about those, you just put them on the bench or kick them
wooden wharf
kiss/curse effects can be interessting in progress as it means you can have diffrent levels of healing requirements
i don't think it matters much in farm
steep rampart
Yeah I don't disagree this can be managed somehow, I just think it's a bit odd in the context of WoW that the "curse" actually gets shifted to someone not getting the "kiss"
wraith sphinx
If a bad raiding attitude is being made visible through a kiss/curse trinket, the trinket design is the least of your worries imo.
steep rampart
It becomes very abstract
It's not like the player themselves often has to deal with the consequence (until they get benched)
severe verge
I def think healer tax is a big thing to be aware of. I’ll say the hope is this trinket 1) won’t tax healers as much and 2) isn’t as ubiquitous as your whole team having corruption right
wraith sphinx
I do agree with the general notion though, Koji. I.e. when they changed explosive to essentially be a oneshot for almost every class, it just became a tank/healer job again, same as all the other affixes. I don't think anyone really liked that.
steep rampart
I'm of course also a DPS brain so I'm ok taxing my healers too in order to parse (to some responsible degree) but I am sensitive to what our healers have said about this
severe verge
a big part of that issue was the built in damage (the eye and the ghost) AND the snares across 15-30 people was just like. Well every healer has to multiply their output significantly
wraith sphinx
Yeah, and some bosses simply didn't allow for the eyes at all, i.e. ilgynoth was a big problem.
steep rampart
Hopefully nothing as dramatic as Thing from Beyond lol
wraith sphinx
Whereas on smth like Vexiona it wasnt a problem at all
steep rampart
Our healers I think wanted to murder half our raid team by the end of the tier
wraith sphinx
I think the bigger issue with corruption was that some classes naturally could afford to wear more than others
steep rampart
Curious if Demon Hunters can just VR out of the trinket slow and ignore it like they did with Corruption 😄
wraith sphinx
If you didn't have a reliable tool to deal with it, you just had less rental power bonuses. That kinda stung
severe verge
yeah don’t burn me if this doesn’t prove to be the case but. the person wearing the trinket should Feel it. and healers will too which is inevitable, but like constant spawning Things from beyond for your whole team is like. not gonna happen lol
there’s also more control to this so shrug
steep rampart
TfB being random didn't help the feeling either I guess
wraith sphinx
Healers are sissies anyway, they dont play the game, they just fill bars up again like whackamole.
steep rampart
Since the timing of it was a big factor
wooden wharf
wasn't think from beyond just gone if you used vanish?
severe verge
the intent was for it to feel like a cursed item. like it will probably sim well for just about anyone, but the player should make a choice like. Is this something I want to do to myself
Some people will say hell yeah brother and windmill slam
steep rampart
Getting a B2B TfB during the final phase of Carapace 
wraith sphinx
I think having these items where the raid makes a decision as a group on who gets to use it/gets grouped up with whom are pretty neat. I liked the SLG/Castertrinket groups in Nathria, for example
Reminded me a bit of sorting groups for group-specific buffs in Classic/TBC
severe verge
the dream for me was like. it drops. and the question isn’t ‘who is this best on’ but ‘which of you actually want this’
Bc some players simply do not want that evil on them
wraith sphinx
And then everyone raises their hand and you gotta play musical chairs to see who gets it
steep rampart
Bc some players simply do not want that evil on them
Haha that's fair yeah
wraith sphinx
I mean, every raid has a few people that you know are going to be responsible with an item like this, while you know the people who are gonna be greedy and overdo it once or twice.
weak kettle
I bet the curse is to get transmoged as a gnome, dunno if I want that for myself tbh
steep rampart
Although if it sims high enough, probably most people will windmill slam then die a lot and then stop using it 😄
rose grail
I think having these items where the raid makes a decision as a group on who get...
I enjoyed that as well.
severe verge
Although if it sims high enough, probably most people will windmill slam *then* ...
If this happens I could not be happier
rose grail
welcome to the group when you get it
wraith sphinx
Same as every raid has that boomy that keeps prepulling when the timer is at 2.
steep rampart
Same as every raid has that boomy that keeps prepulling when the timer is at 2.
You just mean "every raid" right
You didn't need the rest of that
rose grail
hunter boomie
wooden wharf
Same as every raid has that boomy that keeps prepulling when the timer is at 2.
unlucky shadow dust users i guess ^^
steep rampart
We all have that
wraith sphinx
They deserve it for playing sub
severe verge
ok I’m gonna eat my burrito and continue packing. good luck finding something new to be mad about today gamers
wraith sphinx
Yeah, its usually boomies or SPs
severe verge
I’m rooting for y’all
wraith sphinx
Enjoy, and thanks for taking the time to be here
molten ore
rose grail
wraith sphinx
I think about 90-95% of our prepulls were from boomies or SPs
And the occasional missclick on a gateway
stiff fossil
Vanish on 2 always
that's why you do what I do, you just mutilate as soon as you see the boomie casting wrath
troll them
stiff fossil
I remember in a pug where this hunter autoshot sylv
and goes "my bad wrong bind"
mfer you have auto attack bound?
rose grail
one hunter named his pet after the healer so it looks like the healer screwed the prepull up
wraith sphinx
But everyone would see the pet running towards the boss, no?
stiff fossil
72 on sylv 
rose grail
But everyone would see the pet running towards the boss, no?
apparently not.
stiff fossil
But everyone would see the pet running towards the boss, no?
I'm convinced half the wow population plays with their monitors off
steep rampart
mfer you have auto attack bound?
Actually
Some of this issue I think is with gate macros
raw thunder
I'm convinced half the wow population plays with their monitors off
im cnovinced they do their opener then just afk tbh
rose grail
one time someone accidentally turned the monitor off trying to plug their phone charger in while doing rives
steep rampart
iirc if you don't have a focus target and use your "Interact" button that people used for gate focus stuff it starts auto-shot
If your target is hostile
rose grail
just use the toy?
steep rampart
Now it's just a toy
wraith sphinx
Nova sometimes sticks her head out under the screen when she chills behind it. Too bad the screen (de-)activates through touch, not a button.
steep rampart
Just talking about the jank everyone used before the toy
And some people still use
wraith sphinx
I'll never use the toy
rose grail
change is hard
wraith sphinx
Has nothing to do with that
Say you have 2 gateways down, and you want to use one specific one. The toy uses the one thats closest in proximity, so when youre about to use it, you gotta make sure you stand closest to the one you need. With the focus macro you just pre-set which one youre gonna use 10+ seconds in advance and dont have to worry about that at all.
rose grail
imagine having 2 locks
wraith sphinx
Happens every prog that a gateway is set down incorrectly once in a while. If you use the toy, that's likely gonna lead to a wipe cause one or two people will fly off through the wrong one
stiff fossil
Happens every prog that a gateway is set down incorrectly once in a while. If yo...
we had our lock put down a 10yd gate on sylv last night
rose grail
ngl with my vision i can barely see the gateways to update the focus during combat. the toy is perfect for me.
wraith sphinx
yeah we do that too
efficiency
why have 30y gate when the veil is only 10 anyway
stiff fossil
you tell that to the 2 people who get hit by veil
wraith sphinx
Nah im good
steep rampart
Gateways for Veils are pointless imo
I always ran out even on prog, never really understood why anyone took the gate
Wasn't even that hard to dodge with the larger radius
And especially once they did the hotfix it was ezpz on farm
weary nacelle
Our warlocks eat that shit up for breakfast
proper veldt
I always ran out even on prog, never really understood why anyone took the gate
I can get 2 gcd’s in by taking the gate
;)
Stonks
steep rampart
What do you mean?
proper veldt
In p2, you can get 2 gcds in on sylv burns during veil by taking a gate
Where are you don’t get any if you have to walk out
steep rampart
How is that different than not taking the gate
wraith sphinx
as sub youd probably just wanna step out and back in again so you only lose 1gcd at worst
steep rampart
You can 100% get GCDs in when she reappears and are running out
proper veldt
wraith sphinx
ye
proper veldt
And sprint or what
proper veldt
Cause I’ve had some close calls just walking out
proper veldt
Well yes
wraith sphinx
with the nerf its just a meme
proper veldt
But if you want to get gcd’s in
steep rampart
Before the nerf sometimes you could find a corner to stand in without Sprint but it was a little random
Usually there was some little triangle somewhere close
runic tree
And then it saves gate to let you get gcds in right before waves
steep rampart
Jump the waves like boss
wraith sphinx
technically the best play is almost always to step out, and gate back in, not the other way around
steep rampart
It's actually unreasonable how well jumping works on the waves if you get the timing right 🤣
wraith sphinx
only issue is that the veils trigger slightly delayed
so you cant just get back in instnatly, or you risk getting hit still
steep rampart
yeah
runic tree
so you cant just get back in instnatly, or you risk getting hit still
Definitely done that once or twice before
rose grail
now i need to find a clip of jumping waves
runic tree
Too trigger happy on the step
steep rampart
Jump 3 times in a row as fast as possible with the first jump being around ~0.2s before her cast bar finishes
Works like 75% of the time lol
It's actually somewhat amusing, but I always have cloak for backup
So it gives me more courage 😛
rose grail
got it
wooden wharf
nice trick
molten ore
Where are you don’t get any if you have to walk out
Def possible to get 2 gcd’s in and run out-no sprint. I generally do this because I’m back in much faster than if I were to gate.
weary nacelle
what slot will dusk be on most likely? strongest non tier piece right?
sterile swift
Yes
weary nacelle
likely chance i buy it on a ring and regret it later?
wooden wharf
ring is a safe choice, but might not be the ideal.
So if you want to be ideal in the long run it might be worth to wait a bit before crafting
weary nacelle
yeahhh but i just don't have the gold for it if its going to be some absurdly high cost
sterile swift
and dusk won’t be a thing until 4p iirc
So we can relax, wait for tuning and see what next tier brings.
Then last second scramble for legendary stuff
What would be a big brain play is getting food/flasks n shit now.
Because come next tier they’re probably spiking (if there’s no better food/flask in 9.2)
molten ore
If you want the max ilvl as soon as it comes out it’s going to be a high ass price no matter what, no real way around it. Though the RWF being over before we even get them might help with pricing not being absolutely abhorrent
weary nacelle
if there was no token i would have no money
molten ore
That’s crazy. You never boosted?
molten ore
I mostly make gold on the AH but my guild did heroic carries every week for a little while
I started playing wow in CN
molten ore
O
weary nacelle
my guild doesnt do anything like that tho
molten ore
Yeah mine just started not long ago, and now they banned the communities :/
molten ore
Yeah we’ve been on farm for a while now
weary nacelle
okay that was a while ago
molten ore
molten ore
I got my first M dagger from vault yesterday
weary nacelle
apparently 167 pulls
molten ore
PB?
weary nacelle
have a lot of players struggle to not die in intermission, pretty cringe
they start dropping like flies
warlocks >_> and healers
molten ore
Oof, yeah, that never goes away really
weary nacelle
we clear first platform usually on second phase and start hitting sylv, but most ppl are dead
eh, that just how it goes
molten ore
Yep
weary nacelle
its kinda hard on the mental when you do everything fine consistantly, but hey im a rogue c:
molten ore
We pulled her like 550 times lmao
weary nacelle
😳 we prolly don't got time tho until new patch hits
raw thunder
u never know
weary nacelle
unless its in early early march
molten ore
We could definitely still have a few weeks until patch I think
molten ore
we pulled her 549 times and we're just getting to p3
The nice you start getting into p3 reliably it should just be a matter of time tbh
raw thunder
yeah?
we'll see tonight we just benched this shit toxic paladin who was doing less than the tank every pull so
now that we have our sub rogue idk we should be making better checks on the bridges
steep rampart
@proper veldt
Looks like 2pc affecting Doomblade now so enjoy re-running sims I guess 😄
proper veldt
Looks like 2pc affecting Doomblade now so enjoy re-running sims I guess 😄
won't beat dusk
pale roost
aight