9.2 Feedback and Discussion

[proper veldt]

The 2 piece is still incredibly weak, and should get a rework in some way, maybe to help out the m+ boys or some cleave/aoe. It's still incredibly weak as a bonus, but after testing, it's probably fine if the 4 piece stays as is.

The 4 piece is incredibly strong with the snapshotting bug, as you're able to get about 30-35 of empowered bleeds. It's a huge amount of energy which when paired with duskwalkers, makes empowered bleed uptime really high.

I personally think the snapshotting is a little janky, and have been starkly against unintuitive snapshotting, but it does provide an outlet for "player skill" or a "change in rotation", whatever buzz word you fancy using. If it stays, I have fears that the 4 set would be overwhelming on the 2 set, essentially requiring it to be weak in order to let the 4 set live. My suggestion would be to get rid of the bug, and rework/buff the 2 set to spread the power out a little.

other things to note: with the loss of frost set and the incredible energy gain for the 4 set, mastery, haste and crit look to be fairly equal.

[dry night]

As much fun as i've had snap shotting bleeds inside of the vendetta window and trying to think of different ways to abuse the obscene amounts of energy it generates in such a short period of time, I also agree that implementing this as is wouldn't feel great.

My dream changes would be to have the 2p have shiv's nature damage amp also apply to bleeds and have the 4p speed up the tick rate of bleeds/poisons inside of vendetta by 50%, as opposed to just cutting the duration down. This accomplishes the same general idea of cranking up the bleeds during vendetta but in a more controlled way. Also by swapping to an increased tick rate it would likely need the nerf, but the exact numbers can always be tuned appropriately of course.

In my opinion this shifts some of the power away from the 4p and into the 2p while also ensuring that the 4p doesn't get too crazy when combined with other stuff and makes the tier set as a whole very synergistic, which is also something it's currently lacking.

[pale roost]

I personally think that the 4p bug allows for a change in rotation, which is very much a welcome change of pace. The spec and rotation has been essentially been the same for 4+ years, excluding the 8.3 patch in Nyalotha which was a breath of fresh air. In Legion we had Kingsbane, but the current Flag works the same way as KB did in many ways. That's about it in terms of rotational difference since Legion, it ain't much. BFA played the exact same way as current Assassination does, with the occasional overpowered azerite trait changing things up momentarily.

I think refreshing bleeds at the end of Vendetta feels janky because it's a new concept and we haven't really done it before. I much more prefer the bleed-focused gameplay and having to press and track rupture/garrote more actively. The bug existing also means that we would have to let the empowered garrote/rupture drop off before reapplying new ones on top, which in my mind is more tailored for the bleed-tracking nature of Assassination and a good move away from the Envenom-heavy gameplay as of now. It rewards you for actively tracking your bleeds and planning your rotation ahead of time, instead of the usual "press button when weakaura goes ✨✨✨".

[supple yacht]

Is the 2 set definitely working on doomblade and bloodfang? I didn't think they could crit.

[proper veldt]

It’s supposed to

I can’t remember the crit rules for them honestly

[proper veldt]

But it’s a bleed right

[stiff fossil]

I don’t recall doomblade’s dot ever critting. Does that mean we got robbed in 9.0.5?

[true prawn]

what’s the bug on the 4p atm?

[stiff fossil]

It snapshots bleeds. So if you refresh rupture before vendetta expires the effect stays on that rupture after vendetta’s over

[proper veldt]

Yeah guess that wouldn’t work

[true prawn]

ahhh ty oxi

[dry night]

Yeah thanks oxi

[proper veldt]

I was gonna post to the forum post

But then turns out I have parental controls turned on for some reason

Gotta get support to turn it off

[wooden wharf]

rip

[weary nacelle]

Next potential build would be Weds?

[stiff fossil]

should be ye

[proper veldt]

we're also still waiting on a forum post

every class seems to get one

[indigo surge]

So, wouldn't a toned down shrouded suffocation be a thing for 2 piece?

[dry night]

Yeah it would actually need to be slightly toned up actually imo. It would just be one shrouded buff not x3

[indigo surge]

Think so, yes. Would also help with cleave/aoe

and play into 4 piece

[dry night]

It really would "fix" most all the complaints people have with the set bonus as a whole especially the aoe bit. Though it seems they're wanting most everything to be unique affects and not recycled stuff

[indigo surge]

seems so, yep

[weary nacelle]

Does blizzard know rogue is a class still?

[proper veldt]

Yeah we’ll get a forum post don’t worry

:)

[weary nacelle]

We were gonna get crimson vial compensation flavor too :(

[proper veldt]

Sin 2 piece will change
Outlaw 4 piece will probably change too

It’ll be fine

I promise :)

[weary nacelle]

Whisper in their ears to leave the vend bug :)

[proper veldt]

Welllllll

The 4 piece will have to see something nerfed if we want to see a decent 2 set probably

And that bug is the prime target

[weary nacelle]

Is a decent 2 set with current 4 set going to be that big of an outlier vs sub/other classes though?

Subs a good big ahead atm, no?

[proper veldt]

my estimates have sub 2 and 4 piece between 15 and 17%

just as an estimate

its super hacky

but yeh

sub is strong

[weary nacelle]

Couldn't sin 2set get buffed and 4set left alone then? Or assuming sub nerfs Inc?

[stiff fossil]

Depends on how they buff it, because right now by itself the 2pc is kinda bad

Our tier set stonks is in the 4pc

If they buff the 2pc too much we become an outlier and it will get nerfed

But I trust that they’ll tweak things

[proper veldt]

well if it gets buffed, it would need to be like 100% crit

and even that is just not great

[dry night]

Na I'd rather have a sizable 2p buff and they can't do that with the 4p bug. It'd be too strong

And by sizable buff I mean changed

[weary nacelle]

4p is fun with the bug :(

[dry night]

4p will still be fun trust

[wooden wharf]

subtlety likely has quite a high dps variance with the tier set given how much it relies on proc chances ^^

[proper veldt]

Reopening the thread for people with the announced change

[dry night]

Now maybe to work on the 4p ? Or asking too much

[stiff fossil]

I don't know what would need to be tweaked. We'll have to wait and see how it works out numerically first

it kinda buffs the shit out of the 4pc "bug"

[dry night]

Yeah it does. It'll be good for sure I'm just concerned about the synergy being a bit 'too' good I guess

Also while this change is obviously omega better, there's still the point that it doesn't change gameplay all that much and while there's clear synergy with shiv inside of vendetta, it's not the kind of direct synergy that makes things more interesting

[pale roost]

I haven't slept and I feel like shit, but at least we're getting great news!!

Makes me feel less shit

[proper veldt]

What’s wrong with the 4 piece

The exsang mechanic just serves to feed energy tbh

Idk what else you want it to do

[dry night]

It's not that there's anything WRONG with it.

Its just in my opinion if I could have everything I wanted I would change it from being expiring faster to ticking faster

[pale roost]

So that the rotation doesn't change at all?

What's the point?

Why do you want to play the same stuff

For years and years

[dry night]

Well imo if you want it to change rotation then it wouldn't be that at all on the first place

It's slightly different just because you reapply bleeds in vend but it could've been a lot different

[pale roost]

It changes a lot in terms of rotation

Our entire rotation and priority list changes

[stiff fossil]

Yeah you have to be mindful of bleed application

To minmax the windows

[pale roost]

It's not judt about "reapplying bleeds during Vend*

[stiff fossil]

And energy spent during the over saturation of energy to get the CDR on vendetta

[dry night]

Fair then

[stiff fossil]

Like it’s a good shake up

[dry night]

I agree I don't not like it

[stiff fossil]

But let’s be real that’s probably the best we’re getting outside of a new expac

[dry night]

Yeah it is that's true

[stiff fossil]

@pale roost you gonna public log so I can steal your secret tech in 9.2?

[pale roost]

Yes

[stiff fossil]

The return of Cev

[pale roost]

No promises of any gigaplays though

[stiff fossil]

Naw you were a gamer before method and you’ll still be after

[proper veldt]

I will say

2 piece shiv in aoe

Is nice

I like having a button to press in aoe

[pale roost]

Yeah definitely

NS/MFD/CT shiv

[proper veldt]

[pale roost]

But for realskies, can't wait to play with it

[proper veldt]

Idk if that’s better than gar gar gar gar ct

[pale roost]

Sounds amazing

[proper veldt]

But yeh

[pale roost]

Nah def not

[proper veldt]

We’ll have to see

[pale roost]

Garret too good

[dry night]

Garret is way too good

[proper veldt]

@lean glen btw I know you were interested in dungeon stuff

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/up11e46VLK2tp4jfXBPa9o

and for fun @rocky carbon https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qVwdAApSzsBm5rs7uGf6fG

[rocky carbon]

how did i know you were gonna do it

i literally stopped talking and arguing earlier

because I knew you would sim it

[proper veldt]

because I'm waiting on this

and I'm bored

koji got to 13.2 apparently

and I'm determined to find out how

[rocky carbon]

@proper veldt did you optimize between vanish and no vanish

[proper veldt]

optimize how

[rocky carbon]

like make the apl better or something

why would they all sim the same

ish

[proper veldt]

oh good question

let me see if i scuffed it

[rocky carbon]

besides dust

oh i think you only applied it to dust

[proper veldt]

no doesn't look like it

duskies doesn't have it either

[rocky carbon]

then why is it the same dps

using vanish might not be giga gain

but its definitely gain

[proper veldt]

yeh

[rocky carbon]

oh well

i dont want to take you away from your other sims or anything

[dry night]

Cringe it slices after flag

[rocky carbon]

definitely the move to garret garret garret slice fok flag ct

[dry night]

It Garret Garret muti flag slice

[proper veldt]

I can't see how I scuffed it

[rocky carbon]

has to be somehow

you dont have to fix it if you dont want to

[proper veldt]

yeh I agree

[rocky carbon]

[proper veldt]

I just

am not seeing it

[rocky carbon]

i wouldve liked to see it but its whatever right

i know its not bad to hold vanish sometimes currently

i know its very bad to hold with dust

[proper veldt]

I'm scared

this looks to be apl related

[rocky carbon]

uh oh

[proper veldt]

[dry night]

Yeah

mutilate,if=talent.subterfuge.enabled&combo_points<=3

For some reason [e] is prio over [G]

[proper veldt]

it should be

I should mutilate

[dry night]

Really thats weird to me

Regardless I think that is what's triggering K before G

[proper veldt]

you think triple garrote is the way to go?

over a mutilate?

[dry night]

No I'm looking at something else

But yeah I think slice after trip garrotes if slice isn't up

[proper veldt]

oh

I got it

the garrote line on subterfuge checks for a time remaining

and exsang crushes it

to less than that

wow that's cringe

[dry night]

Lmao

[proper veldt]

so subterfuge + vendetta doesn't work atm

fun

that's my project for the next hour and a half I guess

[dry night]

That still doesn't solve this one though does it ?

[proper veldt]

solve what, the slice before flag?

[wooden wharf]

exsang apl 😰

[proper veldt]

yeah

whats weird about that

[rocky carbon]

youre welcome for being obtuse

[proper veldt]

dot compression mechanics when half the apl is based on time remaining

[dry night]

I'm confused why not garretx2 slice Mut Mut flag.

[dry night]

Can't wait for all the when is pandemic in vendetta questions

[wooden wharf]

tbh its exciting

[proper veldt]

cause that's delaying flag

[dry night]

Does it have to do with ttk?

[proper veldt]

no it's just not a gain to hold it for 3 gcds

but everything subterfuge related is a mess

so dunno

[dry night]

Is that what we will do for subt flag in st too?

To solve the snd awkwardness

[proper veldt]

idk what we'll do for subt flag in ST too

I assume getting dots up first then flag vendetta to speed it up

but like

this is all messy

[dry night]

Yeah

Nice to have new stuff though

[proper veldt]

yeah I have a new headache

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vWBAP7QB78EoR8VrigegXn have this though, fun talent sim

[dry night]

It's only just begun

[proper veldt]

with dust

[wooden wharf]

[dry night]

That CT looking at me funny

[proper veldt]

it's like 160 under dusk

but honestly if there's some burst

shadowdust double shiv

[dry night]

Yeah

It all comes down to fight timings with that stuff

[wooden wharf]

shiv buff should stack

make it happen

what could go wrong

[dry night]

That'd be too nasty

[wooden wharf]

nf + shiv stacking would be so busted haha

[dry night]

Actually maybe not I don't think it'd matter much

Since your vanish subt garrote is roughly same time as shiv is coming off

[proper veldt]

well, it would be a fairly large problem

shadowdust would almost double in value

[dry night]

Oh you mean actual stacking buffs not extending duration ?

[proper veldt]

ye

like 200%

[dry night]

Yikes

4 rogue comps inc

[proper veldt]

oh god

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6Xpghehprgbtiaxi3xjouY

subt is 1.5% down

[dry night]

Hmmm

I mean I know that flag + MA are besties but that seems kinda weird no?

[proper veldt]

yeh that's the APL pain

[dry night]

That opener slice is so annoying I knew it

[proper veldt]

yeah

[dry night]

Like prepull mfd slice might have to be a thing

[proper veldt]

definitely

and not this

[dry night]

What the

Heck

[proper veldt]

set bonus breaks subterfuge hardcore man

I'm watching the bot crumble before my eyes

[dry night]

I don't envy you

[proper veldt]

where vend

oh there it is

20 seconds later

after the garrote already fell off

[dry night]

Was it on cd or is it just fully broken

[proper veldt]

I mean the vanish line

just doesn't seem to care atm

it just wants to refresh garrote

[dry night]

Yeah I was just gonna say kinda weird champ vanish at 430

[proper veldt]

ook ook refreshing

[wooden wharf]

just put in more crit

😛

[proper veldt]

it's not even close to a shiv

[rocky carbon]

oh my its tartaglia

[dry night]

So what you're saying is that we should submit these Sims and say our 2p doesn't need to be nerfed

[rocky carbon]

wwtd

what would tettles do

[dry night]

Since you know roughly half the playerbase plays like this

[wooden wharf]

na, rogue is never hiding information

[rocky carbon]

[wooden wharf]

at least we didn't in the last 5 years

[proper veldt]

wow crazy

insano

[dry night]

True ethical gamers only

[proper veldt]

who would've thought

[rocky carbon]

how ethical

[proper veldt]

wait

that's dust

fuck

ABORT

WRONG PROFILE

[wooden wharf]

all fine, relax

[dry night]

Weeeewoooo

This is the sim police

You have posted false information I am here to take you into sim custody

[proper veldt]

oh wow that's a grainy emote

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3gWJ5GXDykLb9vijWNKpmv

it's getting there

[dry night]

[rocky carbon]

our boy sim on the come up

[dry night]

You know Cev gonna want that NS rup sim too

[rocky carbon]

mfd ns gaming

[proper veldt]

[wooden wharf]

mfd ns pog

[dry night]

I don't see it winning in practice but it will probs sim really well with the current 2p

[rocky carbon]

with MA leggo

obviously

cev's favorite

[proper veldt]

if I sim NS

and it breaks

[dry night]

Then just quit

[rocky carbon]

thats what im rooting for

😈

[dry night]

You can at least tell him you tried

[wooden wharf]

Ns might not be as broken

subterfuge was kind of expected

[dry night]

Idk vanish rupture during vend it might break

[wooden wharf]

ye potentially room for optimization

[proper veldt]

yo NS actually looks legit

[dry night]

Does it

[proper veldt]

this is lookin good

[dry night]

Pog

[proper veldt]

damage wise though it's looking like dogshit though

[rocky carbon]

dslice saved

🙏

[proper veldt]

it's 4% behind

[dry night]

I mean kinda makes sense though

[wooden wharf]

[rocky carbon]

no its good

the sims are lying

dont listen cev

[wooden wharf]

vanish into sepsis 🤔 with ns

[rocky carbon]

dont let them take your freedom

[proper veldt]

[dry night]

The true cursed tech

I'm not gonna lie though having shadowblades as sin without deeper feels bad

TO needs some more love

[proper veldt]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4Cnu6rksnkQndgB8kzAFYv

[rocky carbon]

📈

[wooden wharf]

ct stonk ?

[rocky carbon]

the up and comer

dp on trinket

[proper veldt]

yeh

I originally was doubling up the effect on helmets

but I just tossed the effects onto trinkets instead

makes it a lot easier to work with

[rocky carbon]

all this is cool whispyr but can you make ep deeper good

lets see some wizard powers

[proper veldt]

like I just do this now

and then can just comment trinkets in and out

[wooden wharf]

you can also throw it on a shirt

like i do usually

[proper veldt]

yeh I tried that

but it didn't work for some reason

so I just tossed it on a trinket instead

[wooden wharf]

oh might be due to top gear shananigans

[proper veldt]

yeh it's possible

[rocky carbon]

wait we dont want ct

[proper veldt]

I didn't look too hard at it

[rocky carbon]

[proper veldt]

I don't make the rules man

[wooden wharf]

why don't we want CT?

[proper veldt]

cause CT single target is terrible gameplay

[rocky carbon]

just general angst

[proper veldt]

4cp CT during vendetta lasts 5 whole seconds

and you start to struggle keeping up snd and all sorts of yucky stuff

[rocky carbon]

normally ct in st is whatever but with this exsang shit

a little less so

[proper veldt]

yeh

like it was bad during nyalotha

this is worse

[wooden wharf]

I probably focused to much about CT being more universal usfull than actual gameplay implications

[rocky carbon]

we were already gonna be doing it in m+

doing it in raid too is

zzzz

[proper veldt]

not enough gcd's on the planet to keep up a 7 second gar with a 10 second rupture with a 5 second CT, and then trying to extend snd with envenom, and worrying about clipping them at the end of vendetta for the overhang

[wooden wharf]

Blizz needs to fix Toxic

so we get lower gcd during ar on sin/sub

[proper veldt]

celerity coming back?

[wooden wharf]

ar proc from celerity did never affect gcd tho

[proper veldt]

not yet

[wooden wharf]

but ye, celeity gamers 👀

toxic + celerity night fae

haha

[proper veldt]

truly cursed

[wooden wharf]

don't think celerity would end up beating other options tho, it just sounds incredibly stupid in theory

[lean glen]

thanks, king

[deep sleet]

@proper veldt did you already sim the energy talent row with the dusk optimization you were talking about in subs channel? something about MFD being killed

[proper veldt]

mfd was fine

it was subterfuge that was a problem

[proper veldt]

#916546791472783371 message

this ended up being the fruits of that labor

dust was also borked

but that was an easy fix

[deep sleet]

damn so mfd was still the winner in that event

[proper veldt]

yeah

I know a lot of people were rooting for deeper

but idk

I don't see it happening

maybe with some vendetta optimizations that I haven't seen yet

[deep sleet]

shit i was hoping for non mfd tbh

but if we got CT i guess we have to put our money on MFD

[proper veldt]

stay strong brother

I'm trying to get mfd out

but it's hard

[sour plank]

its so weird to use CT during vendetta lol

[deep sleet]

MFD helps set up the CT opener, but god i wish sin had a good way of setting up SnD to be up

that alone would make the opener so much better feeling

[dry night]

gar mut flag snd mfd rupture?

[deep sleet]

tried a couple of openers not sure which feels best

with how strong the set is for bleeds, i have to wonder if SnD is still prio

[dry night]

yeah melee is still top 3 dam

[deep sleet]

having issues reprogramming my shiv windows to shiv directly into a CT

because i assume thats just what we do now

[dry night]

CT first is better but yeah

[deep sleet]

i ASSUME theres no value in using CT ST outside of shiv/vendetta

as then theres no synergy working with it

so thats not too bad

[dry night]

normal rules are keep CT up outside of shiv so

[deep sleet]

man where the hell is our envenom uptime then LMAO

maybe I gotta see double leggo ffs feels like we're dropping envenom uptime almost entirely but whispyr mentioned it barely drops somehow

[dry night]

it's about equal to CT now

28 CTs 28 envenoms in the latest sim i saw

[deep sleet]

so foreign

[dry night]

i think with tier it'll be CT if in shiv + vendetta and outside of shiv if no vendetta

then envenom if just in shiv no vendetta

[deep sleet]

yeah id like to think if theres no vendetta/shiv up you just envenom

but thats odd to hear

[dry night]

yeah that's current rules but dashing changed it up

[deep sleet]

maybe with our stat distribution ill see CT uptime being better

more haste might make sense to use CT more

[dry night]

it'll never truely make sense i think lol

[pale roost]

What good is Envenom uptime for?

Envenom is a shitty filler ability that we press whem we don't have anything better to press

Literally the very last thing in the priority list

(except now it's a bit higher up because of CTTC and only because of it)

[deep sleet]

i like the idea of a maintenance buff

scratches that itch of another plate to spin

bit of an antiquated idea, but openeing with gar/mut/gar has you coming back to vanish double garrote at the perfect gcd basically everytime

[pale roost]

That makes no sense because CT is a maintenance (de-)buff and Envenom is not.

Wouldn't that make you like CT more then?

[deep sleet]

envenom buff uptime

CT being aoe kinda ruins it for me, doesnt feel like i should be pressing it ST

[gray anvil]

Too many maintenance buffs can get annoying

[pale roost]

But you literally don't maintain Envenom

Like you can take it off your weak auras entirely

You never have to track it

It's completely passive and happens if we're forced to use Envenom because nothing else is available

[deep sleet]

sure, but you can maintain a high uptime if it were actually a big part of your damage

[pale roost]

You don't actively go out of your way to maintain it

[deep sleet]

im aware

but thats why id like to do that

lol

[pale roost]

Our class doesn't work like that though

We're bound by energy

[deep sleet]

im aware of this too

im not sure where Im miscommunicating

[pale roost]

A bit crisscross saying you like maintaining a buff that doesn't need maintaining.

But sure.

[deep sleet]

i enjoy the idea

of maintaining

the buff

more often

than pressing an aoe finisher

[pale roost]

Just change your CT trackers color to green

And it does the same thing

Another thing to maintain

[deep sleet]

at this point im positive ive communicated what ive said

a dot that does not connect to anythign in our kit

and is aoe

somethign specifically not meant for ST

is not as fun

[pale roost]

How does it being aoe have to do with anything though? Both are finishers that you can press

[deep sleet]

as a buff you maintain that increases your damage somewhere else in your kit

a feeback loop

because i dont enjoy it

?

this is a subjective arguement im not talking about what is best or worse

[pale roost]

Yeh I'm just trying to understand

Because Envenom is literally a filler ability at the bottom of the priority list

It's the least exciting thing we have

[deep sleet]

im talking about wishing to not have to press a specifically aoe button on st over a specifcally ST button that gives us a buff that also increases our damage elsewhere

im aware

[pale roost]

CT is a finisher just like Envenom, except it does more damage

[gray anvil]

He’s just saying he’d rather envenom be a buff you have to maintain rather than CT

[deep sleet]

but CT is even less exciting

yeah im not sure where the hangup is

[pale roost]

Exactly and I'm trying to understand where's the difference

CT tracker is red, Envenom is green

[deep sleet]

one is specifically not meant to be pressed

no dsude this is not green or red

[gray anvil]

CT is supposedly for AoE

[deep sleet]

im not a world fuckin 1000 player im not just annoyed by the color lmfao

im just talking about feedback loops

id rather have

[pale roost]

Definitely sounds like it

Feedback loops?

How does Envenom have a feedback loop where CT doesn't?

[deep sleet]

pressing envenom gives us more damage somewhere else, which makes you want to press that button more often and maximize when pressing it

[pale roost]

It doesn't give us more enerrgy or anything

[pale roost]

That's not a feedback loop

Feedback loop is doing something that allowd you to do that same thing better/more often

[deep sleet]

show me the passiv ewith Ct

show me

show me a passive connected to Ct

and i will give up

lmao

[pale roost]

Wut

Your using terms that are just incorrect

[pale roost]

I'm just trying to understand the reasonibg

[deep sleet]

sorry thats not the exact definition im sorry i guess

but

idk how i havent gotten my subjective opinion across yet

lmao

this button

is meant for st

it has a passive

CT

does not have anythting conected to it

and its meant for aoe

thats literally it

[pale roost]

"I like the idea of a maintenance buff"
Goes to flame CT which is a maintenance buff, praises Envenom which isn't.

"I like a feedback loop on my ability"
Neither has that.

[deep sleet]

its not a buff

in any way

[pale roost]

And sure does

[deep sleet]

now youre using the wrong terms

🙂

its a dot

that does nothing but damage

[pale roost]

CT does damage over time, just like Envenom does damage over time

[deep sleet]

no

not at all

lmfao

[pale roost]

Just like Envenom

[deep sleet]

IT HAS A PASSIVE

AM I IN THE TWILIGHTZONE

[pale roost]

You press it and you do more damage during the buff

[deep sleet]

im going to make lunch idk

[pale roost]

Just like with CT

You press it and it does more damage during the debuff

[deep sleet]

thats literally not the point and you know that

very weird take

despite my take being odd, you upped me

[pale roost]

I don't have any takes

I'm just saying facts, you're the one with the takes.

I don't mind either or

[proper veldt]

Cev are you good homie?

[pale roost]

Wut

[proper veldt]

I’m just checking

[deep sleet]

"i wish i could have a ST button with a maintenance B U F F to min/max, instead of a fucking aoe button that literally only does damage over time"

that is my point, plain and simple

off to lunch, glhf

[pale roost]

Yeah so you want an ability that does not do AoE damage, that's it

[deep sleet]

stg

this salad better change my life

[pale roost]

Why bring in feedback loops/maintenance buffs when those don't have anything to do with it.

[proper veldt]

Idk what’s confusing about his opinion

[pale roost]

Just derails from his first opinion

1. I like a maintenance buff

Incorrect

[proper veldt]

That is his first opinion

[gray anvil]

Because it’s about how the gameplay feels

[pale roost]

2. I like feedback loops

Incorrect

3. I like a st ability

Ok

[deep sleet]

feeback loops are not explicitly a rotational thing bud

they exist in life

[gray anvil]

This convo is just going off the rails

[deep sleet]

in feelings

LIKE MY FEEELINGS FOR KEEPING UP ENVENOM

REEEEEEEE

lol

[proper veldt]

Yeah Idk cev

[pale roost]

[proper veldt]

I don’t get where you’re misunderstanding

[pale roost]

I do understand not wanting to press an AoE ability in ST

Don't care for arguments about maintenance/feedback loops though

[proper veldt]

You don’t get the difference between a buff like envenom and a bleed like ct?

[gray anvil]

That’s just personal preferences in gameplay then

[pale roost]

I do, but you don't actively seek out to maintain Envenom

Unlike you do with CT

[proper veldt]

Yes we all know that

He’s saying he would like it if we did

He would prefer that

[gray anvil]

But we’re not talking about what we currently do

[proper veldt]

Over ct

[pale roost]

Okay, cool

[deep sleet]

dusk/obe with priest fairies 👀 30 second vendetta perhaps?

[lean glen]

100% vendetta uptime 破碎的, op build 我自己拉屎
, 200% crit现实不是真的 , jpc 他爱我

[dry night]

dusk + obed + PI + faeries omega buffs

[proper veldt]

opening this back up for ptr

[proper veldt]

Also for some of those more interested for raid testing atm, some findings for optimizing and some profile things: https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pQsSVzjhQgffSjJZTxdTB4

TLDR:

1. CT is neutral to PB for single target
2. Theo with haste > vers > crit > agi tea, nadjia is bad
3. Duskwalkers is the go to for single legendary
4. MPSubtMFDPB is simming best combo for dusk (if you run MP, don't run CT)
5. Crit/Haste with a bit of mastery and vers, stats are much closer than with current dom socket stuff

[stiff fossil]

MP?

[proper veldt]

dusk MP with the tier set being at 100% atm was always a contention

it goes away when you add double legendaries back in

but with single legendary dusk it gets kinda whack

[dry night]

MP gang

[scenic saddle]

MP

[desert hull]

MP at the start of the tier ehh? hell yea ty for info

[proper veldt]

should be noted this is currently with the 100% bonus for testing today

MP is probably dead on arrival when the 2 piece gets nerfed

[scenic saddle]

out of curiosity: " variable,name=single_target,value=spell_targets.fan_of_knives<2"

does this mean the bot foks whenever there are fewer than 2 targets?

[proper veldt]

no

that means the variable "single_target" is true when there is less than 2 targets for fan to hit

[scenic saddle]

o gotcha

[wooden wharf]

fan of knives is used because the target condition is linked to a spell

[pale roost]

Thank you for your hard work, @proper veldt . A lot of great stuff here. We appreciate ya, you beautiful catboy.

The hype-train is back in action

🚄

[scenic saddle]

@molten ore just in case

[dry night]

noob

[molten ore]

Oh

This didn’t show up on my phone

[dry night]

I can't tell if it's better to perma keep CT up or not

I imagine if they nerf 2p then it's not gonna be as good as traditional envenom spam during shiv

[pine karma]

I actually wouldnt mind keeping 3 dots up. :X

[mint current]

it makes sense as for some reason envenom is not coded to work with many of the effects

shiv while on vendetta windows will be funny

[dry night]

It's a true uptime buff now instead of spam envenoms

[mint current]

cool that vendetta will be 1 min cd and you also get blades and ar while on shiv to go mongo kek

every 3 vendettas you go omegacaribou time

[dry night]

Well vend is a bit less than a min so the lineups are a bit weird from what I was testing yesterday

And you don't really want to hold it and lose dusk value

I was having the same issue with shiv and sepsis since you for sure don't want to hold shiv so I was holding sepsis for the next shiv and idk if that's better than just sending it. Can't sim on beta

[mint current]

i was talkin nf but yea venth works too

also have to wait for double leggos

a lot of unsync shit like you said

[scenic saddle]

write new apl king I believe in you

[dry night]

Me too 😂 I played it in testing yesterday

[dry night]

I'm down but I think it'll get hammered out for the most part before I get access

[mint current]

trying all syncs with nf seems like a nightmare

good shit assa has shit conduits so the nf conduit is kinda good with shiv

and vendetta making it pop in 5 secs instead of 10

is also cool

[dry night]

Yeah I was finding success holding sepsis for the next shiv, and usually vendetta was somewhere near that

It does some juicy burst that's for sure, the soulbinds were annoying though

[rocky carbon]

kinda seems like with nf you always hold shiv and always sync with vendetta but idk

[dry night]

Na not worth to hold shiv ever

[rocky carbon]

sounds so bad

[dry night]

It's more damage to hold sepsis over shiv

[rocky carbon]

oh thats what the apl does

sounds so cringe

[dry night]

I don't think that's what the apl does yet but it will be I'm sure

Whisp simmed for venth and full sending everything on cd was a nice gain

[rocky carbon]

oh because shiv is even worse to hold because it zaps more

[dry night]

I imagine it'd be similar on nf

Ye shiv is our biggest dam now so you want every cast possible

[rocky carbon]

you definitely always want a shiv during vendetta

[dry night]

Not necessarily but it does naturally line up pretty often

[rocky carbon]

but im sure dusk makes it easier sometimes

its practically a double strength shiv in vendetta

[dry night]

You can get two shiv's on 4p bleeds if you shiv on cd

[rocky carbon]

+30%

[dry night]

Instead of holding for the 12s or whatever we do now

You just send it

[rocky carbon]

i think if we hold anything its shiv for vendetta but full send sounds pretty promising

[dry night]

It is like I said whisp simmed it on the 60% venth profile I think and it was kinda big

Let me find it

It was on stream idk if he posted it in here

[rocky carbon]

was it a full send everything profile vs a sync everything profile

[dry night]

It was full send everything vs current apl that tries to sync

[rocky carbon]

hm ok

[dry night]

i'll link it to you

[proper veldt]

access to publicly available apl

[rocky carbon]

i think i got it

[dry night]

with new 2p?

[stiff fossil]

the entire apl is publicly available

including changes people submit

[proper veldt]

literally nothing I do is locked away

[dry night]

ik the apl is available but i'm saying it doesn't matter without being able to sim new 2p ?

[proper veldt]

joe schmo off the street loading raidbots for the first time

can sim 2p 4p, 2p at 51.5%

can change apl

[scenic saddle]

papa bless free open source sims

[proper veldt]

the only thing keeping me in business is people being lazy and not simming themselves

my entire spreadsheet could be recreated in like 15 minutes by someone with enough ram for 30 chrome tabs and enough patience waiting for non-raidbots premium sims

[scenic saddle]

but people trust you

[dry night]

yeah nobody trusts me

[scenic saddle]

if for example agreon did it people would be like "oh fuck that he dumb"

[dry night]

not even me

[scenic saddle]

NO WAY NF is ahead

[proper veldt]

but yeh

tldr

[dry night]

That's why I give all my ideas to whispyr to filter

[proper veldt]

nothing is locked

if you want to sim go sim

[dry night]

but yes ik nothing is locked as far as apl

[scenic saddle]

so what is locked then

[proper veldt]

his willpower I guess

[dry night]

mimiron

and that too

[proper veldt]

you don't need mimiron

[stiff fossil]

mimiron doesn't give him access to magical abilities lol

[proper veldt]

I literally just use it cause I like red

[stiff fossil]

it just gives him priority when simming

[proper veldt]

doesn't even do that

[stiff fossil]

wait you still sit in queue?

[proper veldt]

yes

[stiff fossil]

[proper veldt]

it's the same servers

mimiron is normal raidbots but in red

also raidbots is not simcraft

[rocky carbon]

??????????????????

[stiff fossil]

he's right you know

[proper veldt]

there's no raidbots locks on simcraft other than the normal stuff to not crash the servers

[rocky carbon]

whachu say bud

[proper veldt]

mimiron is for beta of raidbots

like during beta

when I got access

[scenic saddle]

HYPOTHETICALLY YOU KNOW

[proper veldt]

it was much easier to compare soulbind trees

because that was being tested on mimiron

that wasn't available on normal raidbots

[rocky carbon]

nobody trusts me

[proper veldt]

so I had to generate soulbinds from scratch

that doesn't mean that it can't be done though

and that's how many of the beta sims were

[scenic saddle]

generating soulbinds from scratch does not sound fun

[proper veldt]

it's not

[rocky carbon]

everyone thinks im dumb TIL

[scenic saddle]

you're not a dummy, you're dummy thicc

[rocky carbon]

sorry, dont see the thicc

must just be dummy

[mint current]

clapping of

[halcyon stone]

Kinda late to the convo and catching up but what is Mimiron?

Not heard of it.

Wait. Nvm. A bit of googling took me to a GitHub with a link to it.

[stiff fossil]

It’s a beta build of raidbots that’s for theorycrafters

[halcyon stone]

I didn't see a site pop up when googling it before so I asked before looking closer.

[stiff fossil]

It’s just raidbots but red

[halcyon stone]

Fair enough. Does it run faster then?

[stiff fossil]

No, I thought it did but whispyr confirmed it’s the same as the normal one

[halcyon stone]

Damn. Red things don't always go faster it seems :(

[stiff fossil]

We’ve been jebaited

[proper veldt]

it's just used to push UI things out earlier, like the soulbind selection, or conduit menu, which normally wouldn't be available since the live version is behind 1 patch

helps a lot for beta things and sometimes ptr stuff

don't have to do conduits and soulbinds and garbage by hand

but it runs the same version of simc, uses the same servers, and has all the same locks and functions enabled that would be enabled regularly

it's just the interface that might be different

[stiff fossil]

Unarchiving in case people still want to discuss ptr stuff. Enjoy friends

[pale roost]

I've also changed the auto-archive to one week, meaning that it will automatically archive the thread after one week of inactivity, instead of the normal 24 hours.

[mint current]

anyone else salivating at new trinks

[pale roost]

they aight

[dry night]

not a big fan of the phys dam in them but ye they look decent at least

[molten ore]

Where these trinkets at tho

[mint current]

many NYI

but some seem juicy like upgraded gland with a touch of group fuckery

[dry night]

yeah thatone is lit but it's also off of last 3 i think

it's higher ilvl

so might be a minute before that one

i just want something better than faulty so we dont have to grind it out again

[vast cairn]

is faulty trinket going to be a to go one when TW is available?

[stiff fossil]

depends on how these raid trinkets play out

but probably, it's still really really good

[gloomy anchor]

How is assa looking compared to sub currently on PTR?

[proper veldt]

Worse after the nerf

But sub will get tuned too

[gloomy anchor]

Do we generally expect one to come out on top due to encounter design, from what we know until now?

[proper veldt]

Have to wait for tuning

[dry night]

imo they will be pretty close

[rocky carbon]

cant know before tuning passes

[dry night]

ye

[rocky carbon]

everything is subject to change

you know i have to say it

[dry night]

always

[rocky carbon]

this btw

if anyone wanted further confirmation

[zenith fiber]

buff rogue

[dry night]

i'm just wanting to know how long it takes to get revered

[molten ore]

Can you not just buy it on PTR either? Have to have revered?

[rocky carbon]

you can get it in oribos

its crit vers though

[molten ore]

So we can finally test double leggo?

[rocky carbon]

ye

[molten ore]

Thank god

[molten ore]

[dry night]

You still have to be revered in ptr to test it

[rocky carbon]

nah they said its in oribos

[dry night]

yep and it requires revered

[rocky carbon]

bruh

💀

[dry night]

i'm literally sitting here

staring at it

[rocky carbon]

ok good now i dont have to go check

that was definitely an oversight by them

[tepid sky]

doesnt require rep anymore

[halcyon stone]

Note that the rep requirement removal is just for testing.

According to blue post here:https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/us/cant-test-2-legendries-until-we-reach-exalted-1166260

[weary nacelle]

Anyone have a good tip for how to get details to stop wiping when I vanish

Makes dummy testing sad

Also super inflated sylv dag dam

[molten ore]

there's a way to do it in the settings i think

not sure though

[weary nacelle]

Obe feels really...weird with duskwalkers

My brain is conditioned to not garrote during flag

And the two CDs come up close together but not perfectly aligned

[deep sleet]

i THINK i remember whispyr mentioning the apl for obe/dusk hasnt been optimized, but is it at least decent?

like how optimized was he thinking it could be

[rocky carbon]

theres probably just more things that need to be tested in it

I believe it does a full send strat right now but I think they weren't sure how much of a gain that was with the level the nerf is at

[deep sleet]

full send feels so akward, but i understand increasing the strength and reducing the cd of shit is going to completely change prio

[wooden wharf]

there is always room to improve things

you can look at the sample sequence and see how it plays it, and if you find bigger issues just give feedback

[deep sleet]

see thats my weakness i can play well but my anylytical skills are dogwater

you could show me a green parse on gaurdian and i probably wouldnt catch most of the shit

[wooden wharf]

thats fair ^^

[deep sleet]

so i just twiddle my thumbs and wait for whispyr and co. to tell me how to mongo bongo

wait does this have full dom set

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3VHMFcnEP9jxyB7i5uUmYC/simc

[wooden wharf]

yes

but probably the set bonus dissabled

[deep sleet]

does that also diable base gems

or just the set

[wooden wharf]

only the set bonus

but you can just remove the gems from the set in the input string

or replace the item

[deep sleet]

oh the sims also just dont use food/pot/rune/flask

okay looking at the sample sequence hurts my head

[stiff fossil]

How lol

[deep sleet]

im trying to internally reason things that i just dont have the tools to unerstand

[wooden wharf]

you can basically go through what abilities are used one by one

[deep sleet]

like its using MFD at 46 seconds outside of a shiv that it could have gotten inside

but again idk how shit works well, i just accidentally do shit

maybe the double mutilate/envenom is worth more, but then you could just MFD envenom and still get two mutilates

yeah im using the sample sequence, im just bad at "creating rules" for the spec, better at adhering to the rules you computer nerds tell us

wish i had an oz of computer skills to help and deep dive, i think I'd be a better rogue if i had the understanding of all the guts and gore of sims and APLs

[wooden wharf]

everything helps, if you see a specific use that you assume is incorrect. It can be tested

[dry night]

The issue with really diving into the apl right now is that we don't know what other changes might come

[deep sleet]

oh i just mean in general

youd be amazed how many dumb ideas and questions about basic shit rogue does that id be able to answer myself if i knew how to handle it myself lol

[dry night]

But yeah to your point true it would make you better to understand why we do what we do

[proper veldt]

The variable for vendetta cdr timing with dust had to be changed to allow proper syncing, that was changed, so the dusk apl should be fine. I’m gonna sim some full send stuff today to check again, not syncing anything was a gain last time. Also the gems were still in for the sims since those still worked on testing. Now that we have a halfway decent loot table it’s time to start making t28 profiles and stuff so that’ll just get rid of dom shards entirely. Some other things I need to check are cd hold conditions for dungeonslice and some other edge case cooldown usages

But for the most part, single target should be good to go

5 min patchwerk is basically there in terms of apl

[gloomy anchor]

Yo, what is the optimal talent/legendary setup for Assassination you would use for PTR testing this Thursday?

[dry night]

the same thing we've been doing pretty much

[gloomy anchor]

what second legendary would you pick for the lihuvim encounter?

[proper veldt]

Dusk

Always dusk

[gloomy anchor]

aight

will our stat prio still be crit/haste with dusk and without frost gems?

[proper veldt]

Ye

[gloomy anchor]

ty

[zealous geyser]

badge is the best trinket with the 1min vendetta/flag or ?

[deep sleet]

thats a cursed question. delete this immediately

please god no more pvp, not again

[glad oasis]

Do we know yet which of the crafted 262 gear optional component does the most damage?

[stiff fossil]

If I had to guess it’d be the slots with the highest stat weights, most of which are tier set items

[desert hull]

has there been any talk on dusk for chest possibility for main stat? we just gonna go with ring?

wring channel sorry

[stiff fossil]

Naw this would be appropriate still

Early on dusk on chest will likely be a better option because of the stats ye? Until you get your tier piece

So like if gold isn’t an issue I don’t see a downside to rocking it on chest if you’re missing the chest tier piece

[desert hull]

ahh i was curious bc of the big boost to MS unless they do higher ilvl llast boss pieces and ones a chest w good stats

since we only need 4 slots

xD

[stiff fossil]

Yeah I wish they’d remove the slot restrictions on all leggos tbh

[wooden wharf]

isn't the 2nd legendary slot dynamic?

so you can at least fit that one to your needs

[molten ore]

Is Dusk even viable without having your tier?

I figured we’d probably be running Dashing or Obedience until we got our tier

[stiff fossil]

Probably not, but some peeps like to preplan out their leggos and stuff

[molten ore]

Since double legendaries seem they will be gated as well

[stiff fossil]

Hence me having a 235 doomblade cloak still

[molten ore]

I feel like the best option would be to get your 4 tier pieces first, and craft around that

[stiff fossil]

I agree

I won’t make that mistake again

[molten ore]

You may have to recraft once you have all 5 pieces, for “bis” later in the tier but idk

[deep sleet]

100% you wont care what secondaries are on your teir pieces at the start of 9.2

[molten ore]

At the start nah I agree

Having the bonus is what’s going to be most important

[wooden wharf]

you initially just want the 2p/4p

you can only get 3 pieces in heroic week

2 tier pieces are from the last 3 bosses

[stiff fossil]

Timegating yay my favorite

[deep sleet]

just means its even more important to clear heroic and normal before even stepping into mythic

[glad oasis]

How many rogues are WF people gonna level until they get 3 set in heroic week 😉

[wooden wharf]

the top end will def. do gear funneling in the first week

[glad oasis]

I seem to remember reading you can't trade set pieces, might be wrong though.

[molten ore]

I highly doubt that

There’s no way

[wooden wharf]

i don't think there is a trade restriction

itemlevel still matters as it means you can or can not trade

[glad oasis]

That makes sense, can't trade the first one

[wooden wharf]

there are boe items on the tier slots

[deep sleet]

yeah funneling off normal is gonna be huge first week

[wooden wharf]

but thats somehting only the top end needs to consider, the average will just obtain the tier sets manual

[deep sleet]

i wont be popular enough to be funneled why even play

[dry night]

Git gud Mr parsley

[rose grail]

you should be able to if your lego is in that slot and a higher ilvl

[deep sleet]

if the vendetta overhang from 4pc sticks around, im 100% making a weakaura sound go off at like 8 seconds to remind me to throw a garrote

[mellow ether]

@proper veldt did you update the apl to make Venn/flag sync instead of full send?

[proper veldt]

syncing when not missing a cast is the default atm, there were some talks about full sending instead of that and just mongo outlaw mode "if button avail, hit button", but a large part of that was crazy 2 piece power, so we'll have to recheck stuff. I'm trying to get it done for testing but no guarantee

[mellow ether]

Gotcha. This was just my first time checking it out for 9.2 but I had read ppl saying full send was the play.

ty

[proper veldt]

it's definitely something to consider

looked like a sizable increase on the first round of sims

[mellow ether]

seems like it after hitting dummy a bunch

[proper veldt]

also I'm just simming a janky version of my own char atm

but @rocky carbon https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rQQGtmrWpksqV2uT9YWLSA

[rocky carbon]

[proper veldt]

do you see what I see

[rocky carbon]

its coming

[proper veldt]

its happening

[rocky carbon]

I SEE IT

[proper veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/mind-blown-mind-explosion-explode-gif-4740219

[scenic saddle]

deeper

[deep sleet]

NONONO

[scenic saddle]

[deep sleet]

NO NO NO STOP THAT

I JUST GOT USED TO MFD

[stiff fossil]

EP/DS

my body is ready

[scenic saddle]

whispur delete that

[rocky carbon]

ds is just vigor with less energy except we have really high vendetta uptime so it doesnt matter

[proper veldt]

you are powerless here wheatgrass

[stiff fossil]

[proper veldt]

I waved at you on ptr

[rocky carbon]

yes dude

[proper veldt]

and you didn't wave back

suffer

[rocky carbon]

this is sooooo cool

[stiff fossil]

you shouldn't interact with the normies

they're weird

[rocky carbon]

[stiff fossil]

your first mistake is discussing assassination with mr. decaf

[proper veldt]

I /wave every rogue I see when I'm out in the world

[rocky carbon]

he was playing it on ptr

think he wants to play it next tier

[stiff fossil]

zoomer brain rot is real, and our outlaw rogues need help

yeah hard to maintain your spot in a top guild one tricking one spec of one class

[rocky carbon]

especially if its outlaw

[stiff fossil]

I /wave @ruby finch and he ignored me every time and then got mad at me when I left ZJ

[rocky carbon]

see whispyr may wave at every rogue

but when he needed a turnip to test healing parse cheese

I was there

[stiff fossil]

does whispyr feint on cd in raid?

[lean glen]

i do, i soak every mechanic so my healers can parse better

[rocky carbon]

[dry night]

yeah subt is only 50 over MA

wait is this double leggo only no tier bonus

[proper veldt]

nah it has tier

[rocky carbon]

crit vers unity

[dry night]

mastery neck

filthy sub players

[proper veldt]

?

I use a crit/vers neck

on sub

but the mast/haste simmed higher

[deep sleet]

this feels disgusting

i feel dirty

[rocky carbon]

Im gonna feel so optimized

[proper veldt]

mother fuck

[deep sleet]

oh please say you made a mistake

dont tell me you found something worse though

[proper veldt]

@mellow ether can't sim the syncing/sending stuff atm because obedience is still fucked

that makes the first sim wrong too because it's just dusk

[rocky carbon]

[proper veldt]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uonK9rqYy3e5YMjUk1fmkV

this is just dusk though

if that helps

[mellow oak]

full send zug zug

[deep sleet]

if we go DS im just syncing either way

@proper veldt have you done sims with double lego/no tier set/only 2pc?

[proper veldt]

no

[mellow ether]

thanks. I will be trying both

[jaunty bolt]

so nf TO vs Venthyr Obed sims arent working because obedience is pooped on ptr?

[proper veldt]

Correct

The sims pinned in the channel are accurate though

[deep sleet]

wait whats wrong with obedience

[molten ore]

It was pushed with the wrong spell data on the belt they give you on PTR

[deep sleet]

yeah i woke up and saw people saying it was broke and in my haze i forgot that weird issue

[stiff fossil]

ye its been broken since the last build was pushed

[deep sleet]

so if im testing necro sin today, do i use sudden fractures? im almsot assuredly still hiermir right?

[stiff fossil]

belt is actually working fine