is that fun?
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
winged fiber
to you?
koffing / push?
that if you dip below a certain hp threshold you lose the stats
limpid lance
Idk, is the chest piece you are wearing interesting to you?
winged fiber
is that fun / interesting / engaging?
limpid lance
Is the gloves you are wearing engaging?
mellow urchin
What’s the issue with it? Ppl did play around the eye trinket on prog, that’s interesting to me at least. Ur just spitting for the sake of it
mossy carbon
I like it because the jailer one specifically will maybe mean it's not worth macroing because you want to press it when it's safe (for the move speed slow), which to me is adding thought to using the trinket
winged fiber
Is the gloves you are wearing engaging?
if they're tier sets yes
if they're stat sticks no
but trinkets have a broader room for design
than just stat stick armor
which is why i want them to be fun and or interesting
limpid lance
Ok so 10 of the items you are wearing right now isnt engaging, interesting or fun to you
Lets revolutionize gearing bois
winged fiber
What’s the issue with it? Ppl did play around the eye trinket on prog, that’s in...
it's not interesting to me it's just annoying, and no i'm not just being annoyed for the sake of it
i generally just don't think this is good trinket design
winged fiber
oh i'm popping cd's, oh random raid aoe went out, oh my stats are gone, lemme waste a potion
so engaged
or as i've stated before a while ago
mellow urchin
it's not interesting to me it's just annoying, and no i'm not just being annoyed...
Sure, I mean you’re entitled to your opinion. Just think the outrage about every single thing that doesn’t fit your idea of fun is being spammed in here on the daily
winged fiber
you can also make trinkets visually pleasing with cool effects and or animations
to counteract engaging affects
i haven't been outraged about anything
?
for a good while
mellow urchin
Not you specifically
winged fiber
in fact almost nothing about the next tier outrages me
crisp lichen
oh i'm popping cd's, oh random raid aoe went out, oh my stats are gone, lemme wa...
hope u didnt actually pot for that on prog
winged fiber
hope u didnt actually pot for that on prog
depends on the situation / if you know what damage instances are coming out but no that's more of a farm thing
didn't really do that on prog
i'm not even outraged about the trinket design
i just think it's annoying
crisp lichen
idk obviously gland has that downside but I feel like most of the time its non existing
crisp lichen
I do agree its not an "exciting" trinket
but what trinket is if you think about it
phial isnt either
winged fiber
either A. visually pleasing trinkets with cool animations or B. fun and engaging trinkets with unique design
yea phial is not a fun trinket
like terminus signaling beacon in legion
crisp lichen
soul cap was probably one of the most exciting ones ever
winged fiber
it did good damage so you used it but it also summoned a spaceship that orbital nuked mobs
which was very visually pleasing
crisp lichen
cause u got a good dopamine hit from the big hit in the end
winged fiber
and made up for it just being a regular on use
yea that's definitely
a very cool trinket
or the cdr one from elisande i forget the name
that one was pretty interesting
but i've had this conversation before anyways
doubt things will change until one of the devs feels like doing something neat
mellow urchin
It’s hard to please everyone
winged fiber
i mean i don't know who their pleasing with the current trinket design but i'm sure it's more of they're just very busy and making really cool unique trinkets for each differen't mainstat type isn't high on their priority list
mellow urchin
Soul cap is prob the one trinket ppl will agree was fun to use
mossy carbon
I mean scarizard designed the jailer trinket and I get the feeling he likes the kiss/curse design, so unlikely to go away soon
winged fiber
i think a trinket with changing effects like the jailer trinket is very interesting
mellow urchin
i mean i don't know who their pleasing with the current trinket design but i'm s...
Idk if that’s the case
Nobody knows
winged fiber
especially if you play around them / their differen't benefits
winged fiber
Nobody knows
true
but the downsides don't make the trinket any better
and they don't serve to balance it's power either
so at the end of the day I'm just baffled
why there's an annoyance tax on an otherwise cool trinket
spiral glade
Isnt that a problem of the upside not being strong enough
mellow urchin
Downsides can be fun if they are not overly punishing
spiral glade
instead of the downside shouldnt be there
limpid lance
Imarri out here with the good takes
winged fiber
no that's quite literally this is an interesting trinket but there's an annoying affect on it that serves basically no purpose other than to annoy its user
the trinket could turn me into nyalotha fire mage for 20 seconds with combust
the downside is still just a plain annoyance tax
spiral glade
but you agreed the guldan trinket was good
winged fiber
it serves no purpose
winged fiber
i said the guldan trinket was ok
and i also said the downside was annoying
you just dealt with it to use the good trinket
mossy carbon
But the downside let the upside be more powerful
winged fiber
in that case yes
mellow urchin
What about draught of souls
winged fiber
in this case it doesn't
the downside her doesn't give a negative dps margin
it's literally just little annoying affects
mellow urchin
So you are agreeing with imarri then
mellow urchin
It locked you in place
winged fiber
and that it played off class abiltiies
mellow urchin
For like 2 seconds
spiral glade
but even if it doesnt give a negative dps margin it still allows them to push the upside to be stronger
winged fiber
can make a trinket good
i liked droughts animation
you got locked in place and popped out souls
spiral glade
if the upside right now isnt strong enough thats a different problem
winged fiber
it really felt like you opened up a can of angry ass souls
mellow urchin
Alright
winged fiber
if you use the downside to balance a trinket like the guldan haste one @spiral glade that's an entirely differen't situation that just an annoyance tax
you're quite literally saying
hey we want to put a fat ass haste steroid on this trinket
mellow urchin
It’s hard to make trinkets fun for everyone when your definition is very loose and all over the place
winged fiber
one you can really FEEL
but in order to do so
we have to make it slow you at the end otherwise it's way too powerful
this is not that
a slow, an hp hit etc
does not balance power
mellow urchin
1 person that wants visually pleasing giga strong trinkets that don’t just give stats and doesn’t have any downsides
winged fiber
balancing power with a downside is ok
it's slightly annoying but it's ok
an annoyance tax
is not ok
imo
limpid lance
Imarri is literally the most based person in this chat right now. Considering the opinions is "idk fam, idc about trinket power as long as the animation is visually pleasing" is an opinion being thrown out
winged fiber
Imarri is literally the most based person in this chat right now. Considering th...
a visually pleasing trinket with cool animations is fun, obviously the trinket has to be worth using on top of that though
you're not just going to use a firework that does nothing in your trinket slot
dunno why that's a crazy take
mossy carbon
you use this trinket, you get slowed
But getting slowed is not just annoying, it could kill you. The one that echoes damage means you probably don't want to pop it during something like guardian aoe
limpid lance
Youre literally dismissing opinions about player power being a part of the fraction, then go on a tirade about pleasing effects and visuals
limpid lance
"But that means the upside of the trinket isnt strong enough, right?"
"NO blablabla"
spiral glade
But getting slowed is not just annoying, it could kill you. The one that echoes ...
This, just because a negative effect doesnt directly reduce your overall dps doesnt mean it doesnt count as an actual negative
mellow urchin
Lots of people liked corruption
mellow urchin
That should give you an idea of what ppl think about kiss/curse effects
winged fiber
if it was necessary to balance the power of the trinket like the guldan one
that's a differen't story
mellow urchin
Wdym
mossy carbon
It allows them to give it a bit more of a budget for power though, in an ideal world
winged fiber
that's in response to imarri
mellow urchin
The power of the trinket was made with the downside in mind
spiral glade
but isnt that literally saying if the upside was better the trinket would be fine?
winged fiber
it's not a downside to the power though
no
because the downside doesn't affect the power
mossy carbon
It is though, I get slowed and I die in sylvanas aoe
winged fiber
the downside is quite literally an annoying affect added on for arbitrary reasons
mossy carbon
Because I pressed my trinket
winged fiber
i don't understand why this point isn't getting across
limpid lance
I swear it feels like Im going insane
spiral glade
the downside does affect the power though
because the people designing it can make the power stronger
mellow urchin
i don't understand why this point isn't getting across
I think you’re just wrong
spiral glade
because every item has a power budget so to speak
and downsides let the designers make upsides more powerful
mellow urchin
Because you have to think about using it, instead of just looking at a simc number
mellow urchin
It’s a choice you have to make
winged fiber
trinket A gives you 50 haste when you use it
trinket B gives you 50 haste when you use it but also deals 5k hp damage to you
does that 5k hit have anything to do with the trinkets power, and or budget
spiral glade
no because youre not making the proc stronger
limpid lance
Trinket A: 100% power
Trinket B: 150% power, but 50% "annoyance tax"
Theoretically the same power budget.
winged fiber
EXACTLY
spiral glade
the designers can literally
mossy carbon
To make this a worthwhile example trinket b needs to be 60 haste
spiral glade
make the power stronger lol
winged fiber
so when you see a trinket
winged fiber
where the downside DOESN'T affect the power or it's budget
mellow urchin
And have been for like 30 minutes
winged fiber
it doesn't balance the power budget
mellow urchin
Whatever man
spiral glade
that what I literally said LOL
winged fiber
no
limpid lance
Yes
winged fiber
you said the downside lets them balance the trinket and increase the power
spiral glade
the problem isnt that the downside exists its that the upside isnt strong enough to counter act it
spiral glade
which is a balance problem not a problem with the downside lol
winged fiber
and downsides let the designers make upsides more powerful
HE LITERALLY SAID IT
limpid lance
Imarri, idc what the outcome of this.. Whatever the fuck this is, is. But I like you. 
livid ferry
winged fiber
????
like what
he literally said downsides let the devs make the upsides more powerful
limpid lance
Yes, and the problem here is the upside isnt strong enough
mellow urchin
He said they have to buff the trinket to make the downside worth it, like 30 mins ago
limpid lance
AAAAAAAAAAAAH
winged fiber
and i'm saying that downsides that DON'T AFFECT THE POWER BUDGET doesn't make a trinket better
mellow urchin
And here you are, coming to the same conclusion
winged fiber
bro
mellow urchin
Just 30 mins later
limpid lance
Mhm
winged fiber
what
winged fiber
i really don't know how to explain this better
mellow urchin
You don’t have to explain anything
limpid lance
You dont have to, you are one person arguing the same point with just words at this point
winged fiber
no y'all really just not getting my point at all
limpid lance
We do
mellow urchin
No we are
winged fiber
no you're quite literally not
limpid lance
We are.
winged fiber
i'm not arguing against using downsides to balance power budgets
i'm arguing against downsides that serve no purpose
i.e.
spiral glade
your point is that downsides with no upsides are bad yes?
winged fiber
that 5k damage DOES LITERALLY NOTHING to balance the power budget of the trinket
limpid lance
"This downside doesnt sevre an effect"
"Ok, lets make the upside bigger to counteract that"
"NO DONT DO THAT THATS NOT MY POINT AT ALL REEEEE"
mellow urchin
winged fiber
"This downside doesnt sevre an effect"
"Ok, lets make the upside bigger to count...
right here you literally just missed the point
it's not about the upside
it's about the fact that the "DOWNSIDE" serves no PURPOSE
limpid lance
Ye I get it, its about the downside not serving a purpose
WHICH CAN BE FIXED BY ADJUSTING TH EUPSIDE
winged fiber
and ill show you very simply
limpid lance
Clearly it didnt.
mellow urchin
Dipping time, ur just talking for the sake of it rn. Please read what ppl are saying or just don’t reply with this vomit
limpid lance
Ima take the same advice, seeya
winged fiber
trinket A. gives you 50 haste on use, B. gives you 70 haste you take 5k hp damage
does that 5k hp damage balance that power budget
no
does it make it more interesting and or fun
no
so what purpose does it serve with the increase to the upside
nothing
it's still quite literally just an annoyance tax
crisp lichen
Dipping time, ur just talking for the sake of it rn. Please read what ppl are sa...
🤮
winged fiber
y'all are legit just
ignoring my point completely
...
and then saying i'm talking in circles lmao
when you're refusing to have the discussion by ignoring said point
hasty jewel
Hey guys I have a question about trinket power and proc budgets
nova nexus
ignoring my point completely
people seemingly just don’t care about the downside. think we’ve hit point where the source of the damage doesn’t matter people just want lol dmg
fun is sims and dmg meters
nova nexus
Hey guys I have a question about trinket power and proc budgets
how can we help you? 
hasty jewel
I was just memeing
limpid lance
You got a snort out of me 10/10 meme
winged fiber
fun is sims and dmg meters
I guess, as long as somethings new and does dam or is bis that's good enough nowadays lol
even with an annoyance tax
nova nexus
it’s a different player base. at least in this discord
winged fiber
is a shame
hasty jewel
Sometimes the tax is part of the budget sometimes it's not there's no consistency in Blizzard development and if that tax is worth it is typically a personal based decision
winged fiber
that's my entire point jeremy
holy shit you actually got it
when the tax is part of the budget and serves as a balancer to allow an amazing affect that otherwise wouldn't be feasible it serves a prupose
hasty jewel
it was like "Do I play 60 corruption or 40"
winged fiber
when the tax serves literally no purpose to the power budget i.e. you get slowed by 10%
it's just.. annoying
celest pewter
it was like "Do I play 60 corruption or 40"
39 or 59 
nova nexus
maybe the tax is more impactful for other specs (I honestly don’t know), my gripe is it’s fucking boring for stats
winged fiber
i think a rotating effect trinket with a big payload at the end is a very interesting design
stats aren't super intuitive though yea
and the downsides serve no balancing purpose they're quite literally just an annoyance imo but to each their own at the end of the day
clear zephyr
i think a rotating effect trinket with a big payload at the end is a very intere...
Like chaos bane?
grim rover
Im not seeing a pin on which pce I should build akaaris leggo on
Anyone know if there was conversation regarding that
nova nexus
neck is safe, or just wait until you see what 4 of tier you get. eventually you’ll probably put it on hands.
clear zephyr
Im not seeing a pin on which pce I should build akaaris leggo on
It’s pinned under subtlety
This is 9.2 discussion thread check under sub
nova nexus
this thread can probably be closed at some point to avoid confusion
wish I had more free time I’d toss fuu’s sims in a sheet and that’s probably the last useful thing found here
wind furnace
this thread can probably be closed at some point to avoid confusion
i will do that once i am done with some other things, so don't worry
i will need to update/renew #subtlety-faq too 😉
wind furnace
to be fair its fairly silent for being this close to the patch
but i assume everyone will storm in on tuesday
clear zephyr
You guys have done a good job with the sims and information
nova nexus
to be fair its fairly silent for being this close to the patch
you had to say “we’re making good time”. hahah
buoyant gyro
people seemingly just don’t care about the downside. think we’ve hit point where...
Well like I mentioned a while ago, most of these downsides are just "annoy the healer" so of course DPS brains don't care about the downside 😛
Just like DPS didn't care about the downside on the Uu'nat trinket
Or corruption
Unless the downside is "you do less DPS" DPS don't really care 🤣
mellow urchin
Our healers had so much fun in nyalotha
Like unironically were happy that we took dmg
They want their parses and gameplay too
buoyant gyro
I could see it if they were trying to HPS parse or something, although I had the opposite experience. Our healers were miserable in Nyalotha and ranted about corruption regularly.
mellow urchin
Ye we have some hps fiends
buoyant gyro
I'd say more healers than not kinda don't really care about HPS parses though. They've been a poor way of measuring healer performance for a long time and are often ignored. Like some people still like getting high ranks but it's not quite the same as DPS.
Can always just under-heal too to some degree
mellow urchin
It’s not always about hps either, simply having something to do
We remove healers quite quickly on farm so they can have fun underhealing, corruption kinda solved that
So idk how dangerous this jailer trinket will be
buoyant gyro
I think if everyone is on board it's fine yeah
But for prog and for most groups idk if it's really gonna be quite so positive 😛
Possibly won't be enough of a negative impact to matter
buoyant gyro
But I still feel like largely it's passing the buck
mellow urchin
Do we know the negative effects
buoyant gyro
I have a list somewhere, but not sure where it went one sec
- Your Haste is increased by 68. 10% of damage you take will echo again 3 sec later.
- Your Versatility is increased by 68. All Healing you take is reduced by 5%.
- Your Critical Strike is increased by 68. You are bleeding for 456 damage every 2 sec.
- Your Mastery is increased by 68. Your spells and abilities reduce your movement speed by 2% for 15 sec, stacking up to 10 times.
- Your Critical Strike, Haste, Mastery, and Versatility are increased by 136. When the Final Rune fades, explode for 9082 damage.
So yeah I mean basically it's just a healer tax
DPS gonna use this shit on CD until someone yells at them or they die 😛
mellow urchin
question is
the golden question
are these benefits perm
and the negatives perm
and you keep adding
until you cant take more
wind furnace
that would be fun
buoyant gyro
The duration on the final buff is 30s
mossy carbon
Yeah then you get the aoe
mellow urchin
ok so the first runes
mossy carbon
the others are all permanent, or have no duration
mellow urchin
are perm
buoyant gyro
And the use effect is on a 30s CD I think
mellow urchin
so the trinket could just be 68 to all secondaries
in the end
bro imagine the amount of deaths
to the last one
when ppl pop it at the end of a fight
and its like 5+ dps
doing it at the same time
and theres a big aoe nuke
mossy carbon
more or less 68, there's some value in having the final rune lining up with 2 mins
nova nexus
@buoyant gyro it just seems lately that the focus is on just sims and meters instead of the actual gameplay.
buoyant gyro
Good guy item designers putting Mastery last so most people can ignore it and stay at 3 buffs since Mastery is ass for so many specs 🤣
mellow urchin
i mean i dont see the big issue with this trinket
nova nexus
mastery to kill the boomkins
buoyant gyro
Top downside could be bad depending on some mechanics
I'm going to say there's probably some non-trivial chance the first downside is horrifically bugged on some mechanic or another
and just explodes the raid 🤣
astral dragon
doesnt it say on talent?
buoyant gyro
But yeah, I don't see a huge issue with it either. I just am not really sure I buy into this whole "downside balancing" thing when the downside just gets shifted to someone else. Like for a raid team doing prog yeah it's a downside. It'll be up to raid leaders to manage if it's problematic.
mossy carbon
doesnt it say on talent?
good point :), 3 sec
nova nexus
@buoyant gyro do yo recall which covenant fury was using on the sim you saw? assuming it was necro or venthyr
buoyant gyro
But ultimately a lot of DPS folks are just selfish and since the downsides don't really affect them
I don't think they are really much of downsides to most folks
People who wanna parse will slam it without concern so idk if it's really truly a balancing factor
mellow urchin
i mean atm its not strong enough anyway right
buoyant gyro
Curse to me would be something that has the potential to fuck the DPS of the player if they screw something up lol
mellow urchin
since it doesnt have any agility at all
buoyant gyro
But yeah not even sure this one is good
As you mention
(Ironically, will have to sim it hahaha)
hallow gate
Hi, does anyone have an early sim & visuals of enhance vs sub? How much is sub getting gapped on single target?
wind furnace
sub is around 16.5k while enhanc and warrior sim 18k with high mythic gear
but there isn't a bit reason to compare it with close to bis gear setup
also balancing will happen sooner or later
clear zephyr
The latest was sending dance on CD still correct
wind furnace
9.2 gameplay changes are:
- (kyrian) will use shadow dance more agressively with 2p bonus
- You will remain using shadowstrike on 3 targets with the two piece bonus
- you will use backstab during dance when playing pv and on high stacks
buoyant gyro
<@!116203458129821697> do yo recall which covenant fury was using on the sim you...
Necro
clear zephyr
Ok more aggressively I see that makes more sense
wind furnace
more agressively means on cd while considering combo point and pv still
clear zephyr
With no regards on remaining CD for symbols?
wind furnace
yes
clear zephyr
Thank you
wind furnace
but only
nova nexus
Necro
and it was at or close to 18k? i know the stack will come out at some point, but was just trying to make sure I was remember the convo correctly.
wind furnace
if you have the 2p set bonus
slender iris
you will use backstab during dance when playing pv and on high stacks
Do we not need SB anymore?
wind furnace
its basically like this
without the tier set 2 bonus it is irrelevant if you do it only when shb is up
but once you get the bonus you want to only use it during shb
so you essentially gamble for procs instead of consuming the stacks
left bramble
but in shb the pv Bs is strong enough to override a 2p proc?
abstract sundial
how much of a gain is it vs just pv as 9.1.5?
wind furnace
unsure what you ask bullfango
but i think people missunderstand why you would use pv during dance
abstract sundial
Sorry I'll try and word it better:
how much of a damage gain is it to consume those pv stacks during dance versus just overcapping them and waiting for the global between dances
wind furnace
Sorry I'll try and word it better:
how much of a damage gain is it to consume ...
moment
~70 dps
abstract sundial
i cant be the only one not happy about this lol
wind furnace
i mean you already wouldn't use it all the time during dance
due to the shadow blades condition
abstract sundial
Yeah thats my solace
left bramble
but why only during shb?
winged fiber
It buffs backstab
left bramble
yeah so the pv bs in shb overrides the proc gamble
left bramble
kk
wind furnace
i think you missunderstand what i mean with gamble
you basically wait if your next strike procs a bs
so you can have shb during dance or after dance, both can increase the damage of your PV backstab
left bramble
and then the kyrian minigame on top of that 🙂
wind furnace
using backstab during dance is still a gcd sacrifice, that needs to be considered.
abstract sundial
you basically wait if your next strike procs a bs
at the risk of being pendantic, do you mean proc a shb here or am i being an idiot?
wind furnace
tbh i think it has a interesting balance, opens up some new gameplay elements
left bramble
I wish I was 20 again, then i might not feel stressed about it
wind furnace
at the risk of being pendantic, do you mean proc a shb here or am i being an idi...
shadowstrike does proc blades
but you can't say "when"
so if you are on 5 stacks -> lets use another strike and see if blades come sup
nope -> well then don't use it
yes -> nice, send backstab
(assuming dance lasts at least another 3 secs)
abstract sundial
I assume unmentioned here is the general combopoint economy as well?
ie i wouldnt backstab just to consume it if i was at 6 cp
wind furnace
you only use backstab on low combo points, so not instead of a finisher
wind furnace
it isn't that bad
blissful elk
abstract sundial
I mean i hated the original PV rotation and then got used to it
this is gunna be one of those things tbh
blissful elk
A lot of little things to remember !
wind furnace
i think the most dramatic changes will come for kyrian
using er with the set bonuses is not inherently different but will feel a lot worse initially
blissful elk
using er with the set bonuses is not inherently different but will feel a lot wo...
Because of what ?
abstract sundial
both bonuses mess with our cp generation
2pc by giving shadowblades 4pc by giving procs of strike
I imagine that combined with new BS logic makes it way harder to actually plan out the charged cp
blissful elk
There's a way to delay I guess
wind furnace
Because of what ?
having shb up at less predictable intervals or having a 4p proc when you would have had a good alignment with your sht can lead to delays in using your animacharges combo point finishing
wind furnace
it just means you need to pay more attention when planing
blissful elk
A little practice is necessary anyway !
We're at the ball and we'll all have to dance !
Can you lose animacharge charges due to too high a proc rate ?
Logically, a high proc rate is superior to spend ER ? am I wrong ?
buoyant gyro
I mean technically you could get into a situation where you could lose animacharges if you luck with WM and 2pc procs is insanely high
winged fiber
Suffering from success
buoyant gyro
But then again, your luck with 2pc and WM would also be insanely high
And your DPS would be good anyway
😛
This is why people shouldn't really be overly concerned with the hit rate in these types of conditions. If you randomly lose a 2 buff because you never have an opportunity to hit it over 45s, likely your DPS is going to be very high as a side-effect of this anyway
blissful elk
abstract sundial
This is why people shouldn't really be overly concerned with the hit rate in the...
right but its BLUE and it SHINES 😦
blissful elk
TRUE !
Objectively ! after testing on the RPT, BS during the dance, it's not so bad
opal token
Are the pinned sims here comparable to Whispyr’s sin sims/is there an easy place to see 9.2 sub vs sin comparison sims that I’m just missing :3 (the sin ones im looking at are like 15-16k vs these are 11-12 and that doesn’t seem right to me which is why im asking)
nova nexus
these sims are progression sims with 252 gear. assa has “bis setups”
opal token
the sims are for comparing daggies, not specs
I was looking at the double leggo sims, not the dagger ones, I think the difference is that there are double leggo + 4set sims for sin but the sun ones are just double leggo no tier, I’m just curious what the difference is going to look like when both specs are borrowed power optimized (even if not in bis gear)
nova nexus
I was looking at the double leggo sims, not the dagger ones, I think the differe...
sub will be higher
opal token
sub will be higher
But by how much? :3
nova nexus
ultimately comes down to the fights and comfort level of rng reactionary game play
nova nexus
But by how much? :3
you’ll have to wait for simc stack chart
opal token
Yeah, Ik 😂 the fact that I’m personally better at/more inclined towards sin also plays a role so if they’re close I’ll just stay, but if sub is oceans above I’m gonna have to make the swap and I may as well do it for heroic week, but it’s hard to tell without seeing numbers, so I was asking if we had numbers yet
lament ore
I was looking at the double leggo sims, not the dagger ones, I think the differe...
ah, but ye it's what scath said
difference in gear
in sims
nova nexus
if you want to play sub, go for it. major difference is sub can do more funnel and aoe while not changing up the talents
if you like the bleed stuff you’ll be more than fine
opal token
I’m aware 😁 it’s not about what I like though it’s about what’s giving my guild the best chance at HoF
nova nexus
if you don’t like either, join me in Valhalla
opal token
I like both
buoyant gyro
I was looking at the double leggo sims, not the dagger ones, I think the differe...
Double legendary sims for Sub vs. Assassination are quite similar at this point
opal token
Is the difference larger than it is right now?
nova nexus
difference on what?
buoyant gyro
The issue being double legendary is a long way away and we have no clue what hotfixes might come down in 6 weeks
Sub is looking a fair bit stronger initially
opal token
Or is it about the same where both are super viable and high performing and it comes down to what the player is better at
opal token
difference on what?
Sin vs sub damage
nova nexus
sub is more dynamic out of the box
and tuned higher
assa is assa
no winds of winter
no tier
throw on DB and mutilate
until you get tier
but we have a ways to go until 4p2l is a thing and stuff can (and probably will) change
opal token
Yeah, that’s been said, idk maybe I’m crazy but I just want to see the numbers for sin vs sub with tier + double leggo so I can make informed decisions. If those numbers don’t exist then I already know the information that’s available, i just figured with patch being close the numbers might be out
opal token
sigh
nova nexus
sigh what? if you’re optimizing for each fight a simc of gear you don’t have won’t tell you anything. sim what you have come that time and optimize for what your guild needs
if you get a bit load of assa gear and force it to fit into sub you maybe in for a bad time
as you said you like both. be flexible
you literally had one of the TCs tell you they’re close with sub slightly ahead.
signal nacelle
When do FAQ for sub and sin usually get updated with new patch?
nova nexus
it’s been asked a number of times. same answer. neck is safe. head or hands depend on tier. sim yourself when 2L is available
nova nexus
When do FAQ for sub and sin usually get updated with new patch?
when fuu has time
livid ferry
im sure its been asked a lot I just don't know where to find the info lol ty tho
nova nexus
search friendo 
lament ore
control + F + "akaari"
nova nexus
6 more weeks of people worrying about stuff that won’t matter until 2L.
livid ferry
I dont have gold to buy the highest ilvl leggo lol
next patch
may as well have a 262 version
livid ferry
yeah, I just went to go check prices, ill def still wait just a bit longer
mellow urchin
so theres approximately 0 chance ur crafting akaari on head
the most likely scenario is that you start crafting it on neck, depending on tier rng
and then after you have all 5 tier pieces you make it on gloves
and use the m+ neck
wind furnace
head has rly good stats
buoyant gyro
yeah honestly the min-maxing for a higher ilevel slot is really a very long-term thing anyway, by week 5 it's not even statistically likely to have more than a few mythic set pieces and you're going to want the flexibility to swap them around as you get all of them
mellow urchin
ye
idek when we are crafting legendaries yet
and i am in charge of the leather crafting
buoyant gyro
haha
mellow urchin
cus like
291 might not be worth crafting
until you have ur best set pieces, but idk
lots of gold lost if you craft 291 and then wanna swap to be optimal
mellow urchin
biggest piece
without 285 tier
honestly gearing next tier is quite complex
which is why its hard to answer these questions
cus im thinking from my own pov
and i am sure what ill end up doing is prob not what a lot of ppl will be doing
buoyant gyro
Yeah a lot will depend on timeline pressure
nova nexus
i’d also say most guilds aren’t paying to have legos crafted for players. I totally understand trying to save some gold by playing. the market now. 262 maybe go up in price since people aren’t krystal farming
blissful elk
I guess at first whatever happens you craft according to your 4 part
clear zephyr
Think there has been 10x as many questions about BiS item slotting than actually proper rotation or gameplay 💀🤣
wind furnace
to be fair we only have some minor changes in gameplay
nova nexus
stab during dance is minor?
granted its not groundbreaking, but that’s gonna trip people up
wind furnace
it might be only .3% dps or so
wind furnace
i think people overestimate the impact of tier set slot
this is why they panic and are confused now what to do
nova nexus
or they don’t want to waste 100k+ gold
robust lotus
100k is nothing
wind furnace
and there is also a big question wether its worth to uprgdae covenant specific legendary powers early
or just wait for unity and go with the covenant agnostic ones up to that point
robust lotus
if you did calling every day since release of shadowlands
you'd have 1.4M
on average
nova nexus
you’re on crack if you did that
robust lotus
casual players be casual
they are the ones who worry about gold
it's literally 3k gold every day for free
as a pleb that's worth doing
blissful elk
nova nexus
not for my sanity. lol
wind furnace
it's literally 3k gold every day for free
3k? are you crazy
you can create 50 characters, so you just need to do this little amount of effort 50 times every day
just image how much gold you would make
robust lotus
blissful elk
By respecting the rules !
robust lotus
for one calling a day it's 10 mins
if that
wouldn't do it myself cos it's not worth the time
but for the average idiot it probably is worth it
on top of mission table existing
as well as just playing the game
nova nexus
you can create 50 characters, so you just need to do this little amount of effor...
maybe Push’s collector guild mate can do this
delicate osprey
you can literally make more buying shit on sunday and selling on tuesday/wednesday
im glad there are lot of money/gold illiterate people around tbh
livid ferry
Hey !
I saw that we will be using finality as second legendary.
The thing is it drops at Denathrius and.. nobody is tagging in LFR ^^'.
Will there be an easier way to get it in 9.2?
livid ferry
robust lotus
can buy the random legendary for catalogued research
or just ask your friends to do it
delicate osprey
you can play dust or aakari in m+ the loss is not much and they have sinergy with our job in the dungeon
even looking forward to the cdr power thingy
livid ferry
I gave it a try 4 times, no finality ^^"
2000 catalogued is a pain to farm 😦
robust lotus
like
wind furnace
idk about dust
robust lotus
2.5 mins in maw
wind furnace
akaari i think should be okay
robust lotus
no, 10 mins sorry
wind furnace
problem with akaari is rly that it does not translate that well into aoe
robust lotus
how much research is it eevry 15 mins I forgot
8k per 15 mins
so 4 legendaries every 15 mins
delicate osprey
you know me im a dust enjoyer looking forward to try it out on ptr it seemed quite fine
but idk if they will change how cdr shit works
robust lotus
did they fix all the pre-pull shenanigans with it
wind furnace
a lot of the benefits from the pre pull shananigans are gone if you remove shadow dance on talent swaps
robust lotus
so it's essentially the simplified version now
wind furnace
the 2 sec pre pull stuff is rly not that important
shut valve
am i reading this wrong?
did they actually fix dust or are you talking about a potential for fixing it?
wind furnace
they did not fix dust
nova nexus
was it fixed on that?
mellow urchin
nah but there might be some fixes
coarse quiver
it doesnt feel changed
winged fiber
Prob worth it to look over things
They buffed the ret tier set without even saying anything 
robust lotus
ret be ret
winged fiber
Is my alt but I’ll prob swap off it
The tier set is just beyond awful
Prob one of the worst ones tbh
coarse quiver
the problem with that change is that its not even another global inside seraphim most of the time
it just guarentees 2 globals
unless youre in lust, then its normally 3 globals
signal nacelle
Phial nerfed by 15%
astral dragon
rly??
signal nacelle
If I didn’t need to get lucky from vault with m+ trinkets, I would be quite happy
winged fiber
that's suprising
signal nacelle
winged fiber
i mean you probably still have to get it for early prog
not like you can guarantee you get raid trinkets while progging
this just makes it worse and possibly not bis
actually
signal nacelle
Im totally fine farming it and upgrading with valor for prog, but not fine having to be lucky from vault if it’s bis over raid trinkets
winged fiber
doesn't this make it worse than infinitely divisible ooze
i mean the 246 version is bis over a lot of stuff right now
but yea
this might make both the 246 and 252 equivalents next tier not
nova nexus
rip phial
winged fiber
i'm assuming either shadowgrasp, soleahs, or infinitely divisible ooze is what we'll be aiming for now
for prog
off my shitty napkin math
signal nacelle
We had about 65 items in the loot pool this tier. In 9.2 we have about 85 items in the dungeon pool + some slots of the vault will be tier items, which is nice at the start of 9.2 but will become quite annoying after 1-2 months when we no longer need them and they waste a slot in the vault.
winged fiber
i mean i haven't gotten a 252 phial all xpac
and my rogues done keys every week since launch
so yea i'm on board with you fam fuck that trinket
mellow urchin
dmg proc trinkets are kinda dead with the tier set
it favours stat trinkets
so idk if this phial nerf has a lot of meaning
nova nexus
@winged fiber guess my complaining about phial being boring worked.
winged fiber
<@!211263213872873472> guess my complaining about phial being boring worked. <:o...
bro i was literally thinking the same thing
like oh shit they're watching us
signal nacelle
I wish in 9.2.5 with like 3k io we could upgrade dungeon gear all the way up to vault level
winged fiber
probably kt trinket
a 259 kt trinket is worth less than a 252 grasp though
and that's not even counting the valor upgrades
to like what a 270 something grasp
nova nexus
better phial than EoN
winged fiber
please don't nerf the daggies
dusky oracle
winged fiber
not really
well
i'm talking purely in perspective of
very early prog valor upgrades
it's probably dead in an optimized set up yes
pale jetty
i hate farming the same m+ dungeon for 2 years for the same boring shit trinket
mellow urchin
all these dmg proc trinkets are almost exclusively good if you play venthyr
but then ur already gimping ur dmg by playing venthyr
winged fiber
shadow with venth is giga stonks
mellow urchin
like the "top trinkets" on both bloodmallet and herodamage are simmed with a venthyr profile
winged fiber
well yea it's diffy with that vers juice
all these are prob shit for kyrian lol
there seems to be quite a few stat sticks in the new raid though
for kyrian
pale jetty
just wish they'd give us proper trinkets again
mellow urchin
i think there are some cool trinkets
like the chain one
idk how good its gonna be
but its shadow dmg
and seemingly uncapped aoe
winged fiber
it's been a long time since we've seen a really good aoe trinket
signal nacelle
Curious about that one too
signal nacelle
pale jetty
they generally just dont feel as good to get as they did before
winged fiber
there used to be
winged fiber
yea
mellow urchin
to be actual aoe
winged fiber
you talking about the timewalking one or the upcoming one
mellow urchin
upcoming one
winged fiber
oh my bad
yea looks to be the first one if it's not nerfed
dude the raid rings
are fucking awful
what's with all this mastery man
mellow urchin
ye
im thinking ur just gonna m+ ring
and perhaps cov legendary on ring
but idk yet
mellow urchin
there is one with massive crit right
astral dragon
💀 pvp for rings
mellow urchin
crit/mastery
winged fiber
180 crit 80 masteryish one
mellow urchin
that might be ok
winged fiber
that's like the only useable one for sub lmao
winged fiber
yea there's a good bit of other crit vers sources
maybe can swing the high haste ring
if you venth u prob can
sins bing chilling
can just use high haste and high crit one
mellow urchin
both BoEs are crit/vers for leather slots too
winged fiber
oh snap
mellow urchin
crit/vers legs
astral dragon
hope not to get tier on those slots first
winged fiber
tier set is crit vers legs
astral dragon
winged fiber
winged fiber
honestly that chain trinket looks pog
mellow urchin
double shadowstep
utility
step to ranged and back to break the chain or whatever
sprint and step
astral dragon
show trinket
coarse quiver
5 minute cd
echo crypt
5 min cd
lament ore
5 min cd lole
astral dragon
winged fiber
yea
coarse quiver
AHAHAHAHAHA
winged fiber
it's still fucking hilariious tho
coarse quiver
everyones just like "yeah no"
mellow urchin
its like 20% vers
astral dragon
venthyr gaming bruh
winged fiber
echo crypt
imagine it resets your main ability
astral dragon
echo crypt
+1200 vers
winged fiber
it's like cube but better
mellow urchin
should have been flag
coarse quiver
that would have made it good
echo crypt
switch trinkets prepull ? 
winged fiber
bruh
you might honestly
use this prepull
i'm ngl
it's 20 seconds
of 1200 vers
mellow urchin
i mean if the fight is between 5:20 and 6 minutes its very good
lament ore
imagine it resetting the actual cov ability, and now imagine it on current Venth boomie
echo crypt
buff should go off if you unequip no?
winged fiber
there's no way you don't prepull this
mellow urchin
ye thats not gonna last
mellow urchin
well ofc not
winged fiber
you'd basically guarantee yourself 15-18 seconds of 1200 vers
winged fiber
yea
winged fiber
yea
bruh
1 agi dagger class in the entire game
constantly puts bad stats on dagger
mellow urchin
wdym
winged fiber
haste vers
mellow urchin
theres a crit/vers dagger
coarse quiver
you guys do remember this is the expac where they took trinkets like that and forced a 40 second cd on it
mellow urchin
aswell
coarse quiver
so it might not be worth
winged fiber
only one that matters is the higher ilvl one
coarse quiver
when they do that
mellow urchin
i mean i dont care about the rygelon dagger
its not like im gonna have it for prog anyway
winged fiber
true
mellow urchin
thats a farm thing
winged fiber
the dagger off 2nd boss is yuuge tho
mellow urchin
ye
winged fiber
with bis stats
mellow urchin
and its early boss, big
winged fiber
big poggos
astral dragon
is that 278ilvl?
mellow urchin
ye
astral dragon
nice
mellow urchin
its equal/slightly better than sylv dagger
winged fiber
the one off lihuvim is bis stats for sin too
astral dragon
any execute fights
mellow urchin
but on bosses where execute is important, you prob still want double sylv
winged fiber
maybe they just tried to please both specs with the rygleon one
since sins wants crit haste and sub wants crit vers
they just like
ok u each get half
haste vers
mellow urchin
haste/vers isnt awful for sub
coarse quiver
you just make a very elaborate macro that swaps dagger when youre using shadowstrike and then swap back to sylv daggers when you press evis
mellow urchin
sure haste isnt ideal but vers is nice
mellow urchin
since there might be 278 legs with crit/vers you can buy from AH
astral dragon
yo
mellow urchin
you might actually just be decked in crit/vers
hushed comet
Think so ram
mellow urchin
you used to be able to swap weapons
astral dragon
wow
civic terrace
Ppl always be like "whoa, thats not my top 2 secondary stats, trash item" 20 ilvl upgrade
coarse quiver
you can
astral dragon
just do mainhand 278/285
mellow urchin
well yea
astral dragon
then execute hits
coarse quiver
but i dont think it would ever be worth
astral dragon
swap double sylv
mellow urchin
then your just gonna swap to sylv dagger in execute
winged fiber
didn't they fix that
hushed comet
Sylv weapon macros inc
winged fiber
i swear they fixed weapon swapping in beta of shadowlands
astral dragon
but i dont think it would ever be worth
ofc it would be worth
winged fiber
cuz frost dk's were gonna do some omega cringe shit
mellow urchin
i mean it was a feature
astral dragon
i just dont know if u can do it in raid
hushed comet
You can swap in dungeons
winged fiber
yea but not in combat right
mellow urchin
cringe if they changed it
astral dragon
u can do it in combat
hushed comet
Yeah
winged fiber
gross
hushed comet
u walk out swap walk back in
I walk out mid raid boss pull?
coarse quiver
ofc it would be worth
nah i was referring to swapping in between every finisher LOL
winged fiber
if you pull a boss with the wrong weapons equipped your just dumb reset the boss lol
hushed comet
We were talking both
civic terrace
Kinda wish we had weapon swapping more akin to the way that guild wars does it where you actually get like different abilities for it
It doesn't have to be any good, just not actual trash so you feel like you can do something from range
hushed comet
astral dragon
nah i was referring to swapping in between every finisher LOL
mh yeah it doesnt work, it has a gcd
winged fiber
well i mean if it does stay
you keep double mythic sylv daggers
and swap to them when boss hits 20-30%
astral dragon
hushed comet
mh yeah it doesnt work, it has a gcd
Downtime
astral dragon
Downtime <:poggers:652288776021999626>
no he wanted to swap between every ability
hushed comet
Oh yeah nope
coarse quiver
LOL
hushed comet
Nevergonnahappen.jpg
astral dragon
out of combat its not on gcd tho
i think u can swap 2 weps at once in m+
but in combat only 1 at a time
coarse quiver
and swap to them when boss hits 20-30%
im willing to bet you swap long befoire that
hushed comet
Still worth for execute imo
coarse quiver
you probably would swap when the boss hits 75%
astral dragon
yeah ofc this would be worth
hushed comet
you probably would swap when the boss hits 75%
Why
coarse quiver
we all know the daggers are better if theyre at 4 stacks constantly
but like
even 2 stacks begins to outweight the small difference between the sylv daggers and 278
hushed comet
We’re gonna need sims of every stack count VS every diff ilvl dagger
winged fiber
probably true
hushed comet
winged fiber
at least 50%
coarse quiver
i feel like 2 or 3 stacks
winged fiber
it'd be worth it
coarse quiver
would easily beat 278
winged fiber
so dumb lol
mellow urchin
idk
winged fiber
hopefully is not a thing
astral dragon
i hope this works
hushed comet
Can we manipulate boss health on raidbots?
mellow urchin
278 is slightly better than sylv on a whole fight
hushed comet
Or just execute/no execute
pale jetty
Can we manipulate boss health on raidbots?
execute does more than 278 and oh
was already simmed
hushed comet
That’s not the point
hushed comet
The point is to figure out what HP % you’d swap to sylv
coarse quiver
both
hushed comet
Both ye
coarse quiver
thats how they interact lol