9.2 Feedback and Discussion

[nova nexus]

fuu i have to say with no context your labels are confusing.

[delicate osprey]

fuu lives in the clickbait world

[wind furnace]

basically tier set impact with legendary switch

[nova nexus]

what is just sub or assa?

[wind furnace]

1 legendary + 4 piece

[grim rover]

Tbf enh has variance and to achieve maximum gameplay to get to 18k, youd have to have 100% uptime, perfect wolve rotation and get high hotnhand uptime

[wind furnace]

vs default legendary no tier set

[grim rover]

So the sims ppl are looking st face value for arent exactly what it should be

[buoyant gyro]

I mean sure, that's fair but 18k is so far beyond anyone other than Fury (which has a similar issue with staying on target)

I don't really think that's an appropriate tradeoff

[nova nexus]

and in a perfect world sub needs cdr, wm, sht & rng

[wind furnace]

this

balance seems whack

[buoyant gyro]

Doesn't really matter what the conditions are or if they are "unrealistic"

there really shouldn't be a condition where 18k is possible

if other specs are doing 13k

[grim rover]

It isnt possible lol tbh. Its just a sim.

[buoyant gyro]

Still means the design is bad

[nova nexus]

13k with 2x 259 weapons

EVEN WORSE

[wind furnace]

iirc wordup did clerify that enh would never reach 18k

because uptime shananigans

[grim rover]

See

[buoyant gyro]

If it's "impossible" then the design for the bonus should have safety valves

To allow it to not happen at all

[grim rover]

Ppl eat up the sims at face value

[nova nexus]

if it’s impossible why is it in the apl?

[grim rover]

More realistic would be like 15-16k

There is just so much variance

[buoyant gyro]

I mean proc variance isn't really the reason. SimC already considers that.

[grim rover]

Yeah you run multiple sims and take the average no?

[buoyant gyro]

If you're talking about utilization, the issue is still a design issue. The mechanic should be self-limiting to a reasonable value.

[nova nexus]

if there is absolutely no way to achieve that then they shouldn’t be writing the apl in such a form that says it’s possible

[grim rover]

Haha I mean Im just playing devil's advocate

[buoyant gyro]

Like to give a hypothetical example

[grim rover]

You have to speak with wordup and surge

[buoyant gyro]

Say you had a buff that stacks on a target every 10s up to 1000000 times

And in sims that means you do 20k DPS

[grim rover]

But i feel like people are trying to persecute Enh for having their sims somewhat finalized

[buoyant gyro]

Then you argue "well that's impossible to reach 23465 stacks on a real boss, it will fall off"

[nova nexus]

i’m in on board with enhance being a banger. i just don’t want a shit show of 4k dps difference

[buoyant gyro]

The real solution is: why does Blizzard allow it to stack 1000000 times?

Cap it at 5000

Cap it at 500

Something reasonable

There's no reason to leave the high end possibility at all

[delicate osprey]

juggernaut debacle all over again

[grim rover]

I agree with you kojiyama

[delicate osprey]

it is kinda funny when it happens tho

[grim rover]

But you want every class/spec to be within 1k of each other on single target?

[buoyant gyro]

I mean it happened in Legion outside of like 3 specs

[grim rover]

Like arent their different classes for specializations?

[buoyant gyro]

But Legion they actually seemed to care about tuning and balance 😄

[nova nexus]

when the ST only specs are 6k behind it’s an issue is it not?

[grim rover]

Sub has way better prio

[nova nexus]

assa

[grim rover]

And pretty sure beyond 5 target

Ppl are fixated on one facet of a class is just weird to me

[buoyant gyro]

a 40% swing in min/max sim DPS right now is far too extreme though, even if it is artifacts of less plausible things imo

[nova nexus]

sub is propped up on daggers and copium

[grim rover]

Like enh isnt even the top single. Demo locks are the real culprit

Lol

[buoyant gyro]

Think Fury is the worst

best

however you want to look at it

[delicate osprey]

fury also have banner value

pog

[weary pasture]

whats other classes/spec standing so far next patch for ST?

[winged fiber]

And all these classes have actua utility

Instead of being pure st Dps bots

[grim rover]

Sub has a specialty

Unmatched in prio dam

[winged fiber]

Bruh

Do you even know what prio dam means

[grim rover]

Im not argueing rogues shouldnt have utliity

[wind furnace]

sub had for the entirety of bfa the speciality of prio damage

[buoyant gyro]

I mean as per this discussion, balance is so fubar atm I think everyone is expecting some major tuning from Blizzard at some point

[winged fiber]

That’s not what we’re saying

[buoyant gyro]

So the answer is "we don't know"

[wind furnace]

and even on fights later in bfa, it wasn't picked

[delicate osprey]

yea even if you have good funnel other classes eclipse all the other things too much

now it is kinda fine on st

even if giving no utility

[wind furnace]

subtlety is palyed atm because it does the most dps

in st

for m+ due to funnel

[delicate osprey]

but we know rogue is just not a progress class anymore now that actual guilds min max every aspect of a fight

[nova nexus]

@buoyant gyro & @wind furnace legitimate transparency question. if the number of rogues that have say 5 or more mythic sylvanas kills is extremely low compared to all mythic parses does it still make sense to include those daggers in the sim profile?

[grim rover]

@buoyant gyro I agree big dog its just ppl keep attacking enh like its the main issue and dont realize the sims come with a lot of reading inbetween the lines

[potent vault]

Reading between the lines?

[buoyant gyro]

I mean it's more likely that people will have daggers than a max ilevel Phial, so I don't see why not 😛

[potent vault]

High uptime is not an excuse for how much of an outlier they are

[grim rover]

Hahah

[limpid lance]

[wind furnace]

given the impact yes, you can't simply remove 1k dps

[limpid lance]

Way to kick people when they are down koji

[buoyant gyro]

I'm in the No Phial club so that is why I used that example lol

😄

[nova nexus]

i mean if less than 4% of the player base has even a chance at it, is it still a legitimate option where you can still get a max level phial

[winged fiber]

rogue is used for single target @grim rover if it’s tuned we’ll you aren’t brought to raid for “prio damage”

[buoyant gyro]

The default profiles are full BiS Mythic

The % of the player base that has a chance of getting that is low regardless of how you look at it

[winged fiber]

If other specs with utility and or other strengths as well as good st can match or beat us then rogue is effectively a bad class

[grim rover]

Agree and disagree. Depends on the fight

There are a few fights with great funnel which intern turns into beautiful ST

[buoyant gyro]

Although I think you're underestimating the percentage of Mythic players with daggers

As obnoxious as it has been

A lot of people do have them

[nova nexus]

which is fine. maybe we need the havoc momentum no momentum simc setup. daggers / no daggers. lol

if I had time I’d look, but I don’t have the energy to do so. ultimately it won’t effect me either way, short of maybe getting me off rogue

[wind furnace]

i mean daggers are low in impact for bis gear profiles

they are however high in impact for early 9.2

[nova nexus]

1k is low impact?

[mellow urchin]

its not gonna be 1k

[wind furnace]

1k compared to 9.1 gear yes

not 1k compared to 9.2 gear

[mellow urchin]

its not even 1k now

its like 800 dps

cus they had no weapon enchants

[nova nexus]

which is it ?

[mellow urchin]

add more agility, more secondary stats, 285 daggers with lots of increased agi and secondary stats

[hushed comet]

I agree with @winged fiber

[mellow urchin]

and it adds up

[wind furnace]

idk, both item strings have the same enchant

[mellow urchin]

well there was a diff

of like

1.5%

so somethings up

[weary pasture]

would you say sub rouge - played optimally - is harder compared to other classes ?

[mellow urchin]

nah

[winged fiber]

The other specs like enhance fury warlock etc do other things through so needing you to be able to funnel to even match their already existing st Dps doesn’t suddenly make your spec good my dude you severely overestimate our funnel

[buoyant gyro]

I mean at least according to WCL the vast majority of Guardian parses for Rogues have a dagger of some difficulty. IMO it would be ridiculous to remove them from the BiS profiles just due to obtainability. There are far less obtainable items on many default profiles.

[nova nexus]

I ask about them not being in 9.2 profile and it’s 1k we just can’t remove. then it’s not 1k.

[potent vault]

Why would you even entertain removing them

[hushed comet]

Daggers are a lot more common than you’d think

[mellow urchin]

1k for 255 gear man

theres a difference

[potent vault]

BiS lists have ton of last boss items to begin with

[mellow urchin]

or do you think the gear is static between 280 profiles and 255

[potent vault]

And daggers can drop from vault

[nova nexus]

that’s not what I asked

[hushed comet]

I’ve got like 4? Sylv kills and 2 mythic daggers, almost full bis

[nova nexus]

we were fucking talking 9.2 simc profile

jesus fucking christ

[potent vault]

Yeah why remove our best weapon for 9.2?

[grim rover]

You kinda spoke yourself into my point. Every class/spec has its specialization

[potent vault]

It’s our off hand

Why remove it

[hushed comet]

3 if you count heroic

[winged fiber]

And if we’re not good at st then we don’t have ours I.e. dead class???

[mellow urchin]

the 1k quote is not from a 9.2 simc profile discussion

[hushed comet]

[nova nexus]

it is

100%

[wind furnace]

giveme a sec to find the issue

[buoyant gyro]

I mean for 9.2 you only even need 1 Mythic dagger which would be a much larger percentage of people. I get some folks aren't going to have them but like... what's the alternative? Adding in a weapon from the end boss of the raid? Somehow an item people won't have for 3-6 months is more obtainable than an item a high percentage of Rogues already have? I don't think there's any way we remove the OH from the 9.2 profiles.

[mellow urchin]

no its not

it was a comparison to 259 daggers

[delicate osprey]

yea that is the joke imagine getting rygelon dagger when most of us will only kill him once before jail boi

[mellow urchin]

without the passive

[nova nexus]

just stop

[grim rover]

Haha idk man I feel like you are looking at it wrong. At a high end raid will it be in for every fight no.....but at a medium and lower end sub is perfectly fine

[mellow urchin]

[livid ferry]

[potent vault]

Base M daggers aren’t going to lose to M daggers by 1k

That’s absurd

285 daggers are 300 dps down

7 ilvl on main hand off hand

Doesn’t equal 700 lost dps

[winged fiber]

You can play literally anything in a low tier raid balance doesn’t matter when you massively out gear every boss because you kill it in 10 months

[delicate osprey]

yea that is the reason most of us are sad rogue is just not a progress class right now sure many of us will play it on prog but we are relying on some serious crutch

at least it is not bfa sub right? ahaha

[hushed comet]

Think he means going into 9.2, not the end of it lol

[potent vault]

Do you plan to do nothing in 9.2

[hushed comet]

Don’t think he plans on having 285 daggers week 1 no

[acoustic cobalt]

But hey sub still boss in m+ right? Silver lining betwixt all the doom and gloom?

[hushed comet]

[potent vault]

Where did I say 285?

I said a base M

And again

[hushed comet]

You meant 252 or something?

[potent vault]

You’ve always had big advantage

With previous raid tier

[hushed comet]

Huh

What does that even mean 👀

[mellow urchin]

the main point is that the 259 sylv dagger is 800 dps better than 259 dagger with stats

[hushed comet]

Oh previous

[mellow urchin]

and that number will drop

as you get more gear and higher ilvl daggers

[hushed comet]

For sure

[potent vault]

Luckily you know come early prog

There are multiple ways to farm higher than a 259 dagger

[hushed comet]

I’m not saying I agree with scath

[potent vault]

So people can stop bitching about not having the dagger

[hushed comet]

Just pointing out what I thought he meant

[nova nexus]

you’re the last person i need tying to point out what i meant

[hushed comet]

[nova nexus]

I asked a specific question. got a specific answer.

so either the answer was not accurate or my question was not understood

buff the EoN for all I actually care

[hushed comet]

Don’t need to be an ass about it

[grim rover]

Haha scath going off

[golden agate]

A little late to the discussion about SylvDagger in default profile, but I do agree it should be kept in the profile. Though maybe a disclaimer should be put into the FAQs regarding it.

Does having a dagger shift the recommended covenant for say ST?

If it does that should probably be noted in the FAQs come 9.2

[hushed comet]

Don’t think so, but you can sim yourself to be sure

[mellow urchin]

i mean the answer wasnt accurate

[golden agate]

Not asking for me personally

I will sim, if it comes down to it, but not everybody will

[nova nexus]

fuu gonna need to make a google sheet just for fucking dagger sims

[mellow urchin]

i mean he was talking about 9.1 comparisons

not 9.2

so ye probably misunderstood the question

[wind furnace]

i need to first know why there was a diffrence in kojis sim

[nova nexus]

hehe

[wind furnace]

as i did copy/paste the dagger with enchants from gear compare to double check

but had no damage change

[nova nexus]

have whispyr do it too. get a third variant

[wind furnace]

XD

[nova nexus]

we can rename the dagger to Loki

[steel meadow]

is there any sims with t28 profile

[nova nexus]

i honestly think at this point we are just a twisted social experiment being observed by the devs

[hushed comet]

Then they are lost to us already

[golden agate]

Seeing your name Scath, reminds me that both the DK and Mage Kyrian legendaries were reworked to work in ST and how strange it is that Deathspike wasnt

[potent vault]

The fact they made covenant lego the pick

And didn’t bother to ever balance them

Is hilarious

[nova nexus]

welcome to rogue

can’t fix the lego. manage to break SoD on the release candidate.

getting closer to WW monk in jank bugs

[slim plover]

Are there already sims for trinkets?

[wind furnace]

no

[mental estuary]

Wait. They broke SoD? Oof.

Like Symbols or the old raid? Lol

[nova nexus]

symbols

[wind furnace]

its not broken

[nova nexus]

it’s not working as intended

[wind furnace]

yes, but broken implies that its not working at all

[nova nexus]

broken means it’s not working

[mental estuary]

Maybe it's a feature. Like deathspike.

[hushed comet]

What’s wrong with symbols?

[wind furnace]

#916284169057878037 message

[buoyant gyro]

Is this just a macro issue?

[wind furnace]

no macros included

its regular use

i don't have symbols on any macro

[delicate osprey]

so as i told fuu it seemed to work no changes to that right?

we found that one quite a while ago quite decent for aoe/cleave

strike hits decently hard

[wind furnace]

wdym hacha?

oh symbols crit all strikes, it is a funny thing i saw in the log when testing

the symbols thing above is something diffrent

[delicate osprey]

ye i also found out in some testing with dummies in 4p

[wind furnace]

its rly nice, adds some gameplay flavour

but the mentioned bug might be not that big, seems time sensitive

[feral schooner]

What do you mean all strikes?

[delicate osprey]

the ones from 4p

[wind furnace]

^

[delicate osprey]

benefir from SoD autocrit

[feral schooner]

ohhh nice!

[delicate osprey]

now i wonder if it works with rotten

[feral schooner]

try rotten

[delicate osprey]

for some krangled cleave/etc

[wind furnace]

should only work on 1 for rotten

same with premed

the bug with symbols def. seems to have a very small time frame

pressing symbols (first button on the top row) and dance (2nd button on the top row) fairly fast

symbols is not a macro, but dance + strike is

its interessting, i did put it in a macro and it did consume the crit buff

[delicate osprey]

nice

so there has to be some timing

we back to dfa times

[wind furnace]

ngl, the bug seems almost irrelevant

its just interessting to have it reproducable

[coarse quiver]

doesnt seem worth trying

[wind furnace]

you gain nothing

as i pointed out before

all it does is to not get the crit buff on the first strike

so instead of symbols-strike(crit)-strike
you get symbols-strike(non crit)-strike(crit)

[coarse quiver]

thought so

[wind furnace]

it would be nice if both would crit

but it is seemingly an irrelevant but funny bug

(at least i didn't fuck up my recordings this time)

[lament ore]

wondering if it's an issue if with PV you'd want to go Symbols -> BS

[delicate osprey]

yea it is only pog on cleave/aoe if it procs but i could not always reproduce

the thing is if that if it does not consume you can still SoD finisher backstab

[nova nexus]

time to unleash secret technique symbols cheese

[clear zephyr]

Someone told me tier sets secondaries got reworked

[mellow urchin]

they did

[clear zephyr]

Can anyone confirm I’m at work still 🤔

Ok Ty

[mellow urchin]

or do you mean

again

from last night

[clear zephyr]

I’m not sure they didn’t specify

Just said secondaries were changed

[delicate osprey]

possible can't check rn

but leather at least was all krangled last build

[delicate osprey]

so unless something popped today

oh

[wind furnace]

from earlier

[delicate osprey]

do we have any leggo on hands

[wind furnace]

akaaris can go on hands

[delicate osprey]

well now we know where it goes kekw

[wind furnace]

unity can always go on hands

[delicate osprey]

or well you can just skip hands

aakari can go on neck too that one can be also good

[wind furnace]

tbh not sure

head piece has a high stat budget too

[delicate osprey]

unity ring seems lit

i really hope they unkrangle jailer trinket i want it to be good

[mellow urchin]

no good gloves in the game right

[delicate osprey]

even if you get ayayad

[mellow urchin]

makes the most sense

to put akaari on gloves

[delicate osprey]

we can get pvp gloves for crit vers

[mellow urchin]

ehh

272

[delicate osprey]

but yea aakari on gloves can go a good run

[mellow urchin]

unless ur gonna tell us to go 2400+

[delicate osprey]

2400 does not give better loot anymore

[mellow urchin]

so its always 272

kinda bad

[delicate osprey]

it would be a stopgap at most ye

there are a lot of good necks tbh

aakari can 100% be on hands most likely if not tier fucked

[mellow urchin]

bis neck from that dungeon

[delicate osprey]

at least if i get vanquisher token i would trade 1st week of normal after hc

[mellow urchin]

high vers

with crut

crit

[delicate osprey]

ye big one

[trim cedar]

I have a question

all the simulation here are only ST ?

[hushed comet]

For sub? Think so yes

[trim cedar]

yeah for sub

And isn't it possible to make multi target simulations ?

Since assassination have some

[nova nexus]

we generally don’t care about multi target. BP go brrr

was there something you were trying to sort out?

[unkempt peak]

Ye as sub you either have enough targets to fully ape BP or you spam evis into a priority

[hushed comet]

it's possible yes, but that's all up to the people putting in all the work whatever they feel is good info to make readily available for everyone

if you'd like to do some yourself with current gear, you could. or even with the gear they used for the 9.2 sims, but that gets slightly more complex.

[lament ore]

wrong channel

[hushed comet]

true

[trim cedar]

Well its for the dps i know it's just ape but i'd rather like being an ape and don't have too much tricky shit to do than going assassination

[hushed comet]

In 5-6+ targets sub will always do more aoe with how things are set up atm

2-4 targets is more outlaw/sin territory I think

[winged fiber]

it is

[quasi socket]

is T28 profile for sub done?

[acoustic cobalt]

are dom sockets just totally disabled come tuesday? as in they wont provide their individual bonuses

[lament ore]

they still work in the Maw and thus Torgie and SoD

not active anywhere else, like M+, though I'm unsure about the very first week, since that's still current M+

[acoustic cobalt]

kk thanks

[astral dragon]

is torgy still relevant next tier?

@lament ore

do we need that shit for new legos ?

torgy mats for 262s + new currency for higher?

[lament ore]

if you're crafting a new R7 from scratch, gonna be the same requirements as R6 + new stuff ye

new stuff is available from basically every content I think, but also Torgie farmable

[astral dragon]

💀 hate torgy

we still buying sockets with soul cinders?

[lament ore]

not a clue

there's no info about season 3 socket item apart from a wowhead post saying there's no info

[astral dragon]

ur doge is different

[lament ore]

[winged fiber]

you get it from ce, 2400 or a +20

all condis

there was a post

oh wait socket

LOL

[lament ore]

ye

[winged fiber]

sorry for ping fam i can't read

[lament ore]

there's no clue about the socket item

[winged fiber]

yea

well tier i think they said is no tertiaries

or socket4s

so we'll see what they decide to do

maybe they just not doing a socket grind

[lament ore]

would be kinda odd when it was made a thing to alleviate RNG on getting sockets on rings etc

[winged fiber]

yea

[potent pawn]

pretty sure it's 2.1k now not 2.4k

and you need 3k IO which is all 20s

[winged fiber]

Oh word

2.1k in 3s only?

Cuz doing that in rbgs is free af lol

[potent pawn]

2.1k in anything

wait whats elite

2.1k right?

https://www.wowhead.com/news/278-conduit-upgrade-item-no-longer-requires-zereth-mortis-reputation-325987

[unkempt peak]

That's pretty cool

Shame it isn't account bound

[unkempt peak]

I feel like if your able to do all dungeons at + 20 your alts should get a bit of a free pass

[potent pawn]

yeah too bad blizzard hates accountbound stuff

[unkempt peak]

Gotta pad that playtime

[plucky storm]

[plucky storm]

so that you can what

still not play sub?

trinkets are just flat out broken though

I doubt we'll have any stable profile in the next week

[quasi socket]

look at my profile I got 2 sub parses in there

[plucky storm]

@torpid iris

can just add you like this as well I guess

:)

[torpid iris]

tyvm

[plucky storm]

np

bro why do you keep doing this

[shrewd wedge]

So, how important is a Sylv dagger as an off hand for the new patch?

[quasi socket]

jesus I didn't realize so sorry

[shrewd wedge]

Cuz I have been seeing some people saying that it is almost a 10% diff from a max ilvl dagger from a heroic sylv dagger?

[plucky storm]

mythic slv offhand beats everything

there's sims in the pins

[vernal folio]

reckon they'll nerf it?

[plucky storm]

no

[vernal folio]

feelsbad if people pick up rogue in 9.2 and dont have it

[quasi socket]

isn't that the case that has always been though?

with op stuff from previous tiers

[plucky storm]

font

coral

[vernal folio]

hey i guess you're right lol

mb

good thing i have mythic dagger on my alt rogue 😛

[pale jetty]

is clinch of unity bugged on ptr

i thought they fixed that

but it doesnt work with flag

[wind furnace]

i don't think any of the profiles is "done" before trinkets are finalized on ptr/live

[quasi socket]

fair

[pseudo crown]

Really intrigued by the jailer trinket

The one with the chain

Kinda giving me soul cap vibes

[limpid lance]

[austere swan]

Hey guys are there any Information for trinkets in the new raid? 😄

[wind furnace]

Raid trinkets are still in change, a lot of them have dummy spell data and tuning changes are expected.
A reliable list for trinkets likely won't be aviable before the patch hits.

[spiral glade]

Proving your point, Elegy of the Eternals just got tuning

[coarse quiver]

its a little more than 100 secondary

so youre giving like 11ish to allies in party/covenant

[limpid lance]

brb trying to convince the enhance to go venthyr next tier

[coarse quiver]

yeah its going to be annoying having to convince people it doesnt fucking matter

even if you could 5 man stack it and everyone gets 44 secondary LOL

just not worth the hassle

what would be harder asking the shaman to go venthyr or kyrian

[shut valve]

Night fae assa + enha + dh + warrior party

[nova nexus]

people have been rogue since the start of sanctum and don’t have it.

it is what it is. if not having the dagger is going to rain on your meta swap parade I’d suggest find a different class.

[wind furnace]

just to state this, subtlety looks to be ahead even without the daggers.
There is a wide spread opinion that you require sylvanas dagger to play subtlety that is incorrect.
It will be worth a lot for the spec, but subtlety will even without it likely end up ahead

[nova nexus]

or just take the liquid approach 💰

[wind furnace]

i don't rly like to go in that topic again

but i am still stunned that people do this for this little compensation

i wish liquit the best tho

[nova nexus]

i mean if they have it and don’t need it, it’s free gold

[wind furnace]

you only get gold if you trade

so there is no compensation for your time expense if you don't get a drop

but again, its nice that they have this options and people are willing to help out

[nova nexus]

so you lose 30 minutes?

maybe a hour

[wind furnace]

you lose your lockout too

[nova nexus]

the last week of the tier

[wind furnace]

[nova nexus]

especially if you’ve been say afk for 2 months after doing all your reclears that is just easy gold

[mossy carbon]

I think limit could say that you need to pay them 1m gold if it drops and you trade it and there would still be people who would sign up

[wind furnace]

haha true

[nova nexus]

farming it for bucket drop toons. love the state of loot in this game

[wind furnace]

to be fair, you can't rly remove the benefits from bucket chars without redesigning how loot acquisition works.

[nova nexus]

that would be “state of loot” in the game

[wind furnace]

only 2 ways to make bucket chars bad is to:
#1 have low impact items
or
#2 have a loot system that is deterministic and will give you predictable loot at similar rates for everyone

[nova nexus]

people are genuinely upset that blizzard is talking about trying to increase the acquisition rate for the love rocket. like it was some type of massive achievement they did high rolling a 0.03% drop for a daily quest.

[wind furnace]

but #1 means loot is boring
and #2 is possibly something risky in a fundamentally drop dependent loot system

and there is a big incentive to not make gear aquistion finite to keep players excited for loot

[nova nexus]

re 1: how exciting is EoN?

you don’t play around it. it just does dmg

but yes I know dmg is exciting

[wind furnace]

i mean

getting a upgrade for .2% dps is not as exciting as getitng one for 3 or 5%

even if you try to make the case for it with your argument

[nova nexus]

that’s excitement in the sims. gameplay wise you don’t do anything different

[wind furnace]

thats a entire diffrent discussion

[nova nexus]

is it?

[wind furnace]

yes

[nova nexus]

how?

ink and coral as trinkets = something to play around and exciting when it popped off

a dot application that you don’t manage and just gives you free dps isn’t “exciting”

[mellow urchin]

a guildie of mine has done over 1300 love is in the air dungeons, this year alone

doing it on 61 characters above level 50 every single day

[nova nexus]

[mellow urchin]

on 4 different accounts

[nova nexus]

all for a red butt plug

[mellow urchin]

he is a collector

[nova nexus]

i get it

[mellow urchin]

very serious business

[nova nexus]

to each their own

[mellow urchin]

ye

he only raids at our level to get achievement semi-early

in case its whats required for him to "win"

[nova nexus]

honestly I wish I was numb and ignorant to loot and sims

[wind furnace]

by saying that gear needs to have rotational impact you basically limit the gear chocies that could be exciting to a number you usualyl can count on a hand per xpac.

[mellow urchin]

loot doesnt matter much to me

loot is simply a tool to reach the goal

[nova nexus]

then design better gear

[wind furnace]

i don't disagree that things with rotational impact or similar are more exciting (tier sets?, legendary items?)

but i am unsure what your perfect loot system look like then

[nova nexus]

the lack of quality design should not shift our level of excitement towards an item from it being exciting in game to just being exciting on a spreadsheet or sim

[wind furnace]

having each loot piece in the game providing unique gameplay changing elements sounds like....

[mellow urchin]

i mean not a single game in the industry does this

[wind furnace]

... you would drown in options, and it wouldn't be anything special anymore

[nova nexus]

getting the heroic dagger after 8 months was like finally going shit after months of constipation.

[wind furnace]

what do you refer to exactly?

[mellow urchin]

special loot

most of them are just stat upgrades

in most games

[wind furnace]

it makes sense

[nova nexus]

they also have specs with some depth

we do not

[mellow urchin]

do they tho

[nova nexus]

so we are hoping systems

improve our gameplay

[mellow urchin]

or are you biased because you have played wow for a very long time so you have kinda solved the gameplay

[nova nexus]

huh? other games have more depth to the class/specs

[wind furnace]

you can't rly design this amount of new/exciting and gameplay changing effects in a reasonable timeframe

[mellow urchin]

I am not sure i agree with that, but each to their own. There are some games with depth to their classes but in the end, the optimal way of playing those usually also boils down to 3-4 things

[wind furnace]

just to do a bit of math on it, it would mean they need to consider a minimum of 3 unique items per slot to have a non binary choice, this with 15 item slots across multiple classes/specs

[mellow urchin]

Its easy to look at wow and say "this has no depth", but thats also because it has almost an entire workforce trying to write down how you're meant to play it and produce numbers on how much each playstyle gives you

so in the end you have 1 option

which many other games doesnt have

[spiral glade]

And then those 3+ unique items x 15 slots x multiple classes and specs would have to be thoroughly checked for balance in both pve and pvp, it would be a nightmare imo

[wind furnace]

exactly

i think special items are exciting if they are not the standard

[nova nexus]

i’d honestly rather see them bland out the weapons and major slot items where people won’t feel so tilted with a weapon that no one else can trade and make, rings, trinkets & necks more than stat sticks. change up some aspect of the items you equip. at least those items are raid wide tradeable

[wind furnace]

and i do think power level upgrades have a excitement factor to it. But as shown with sylvanas dagger can have frustration if aquisition is problematic

[nova nexus]

our hunter is just as frustrated, but he even said at least I’m replacing it. lol

[limpid lance]

Problematic is an understatement when you have to rely on lady fortune not shitting down your turtleneck each week

[nova nexus]

but apparently raid currency and vendors are bad

only feels good getting if after killing the pixels 20 times

and taking it off the corpse

[limpid lance]

I mean. Half of my frustration was progressbased.

With enough kills of a boss it evens out, usually

[nova nexus]

usually is the wildcard

[limpid lance]

I just have that kind of way with words

[nova nexus]

or you have some people that have double daggers with 4 kills.

[wind furnace]

its somewhat ironic that the weekly chest that is supposed to help with loot acquisition still does not manage to do so
while the removed system of bonusrolls or the not taken approach of weapon tokens both would have made its impact a lot smaller

[unkempt kelp]

Will Vent still be the go to in M+ and will Sub still out perform Outlaw?

[wind furnace]

yes

(both questions)

[unkempt kelp]

Thank you Sensei fuu

[mellow urchin]

i mean some ppl also expect to be fully geared after having killed something 4-5 times

the expectations on how fast you're meant to be gearing is unrealistic at times

[wind furnace]

totally agree

but i also think that mechanics who aggregate bad luck should be in place

[quasi socket]

true it's kinda nuts

didn't gingi JUST get his legendary bow or something

[wind furnace]

^ the issue is if you require 20 or even more kills to reliably get access to high power level items

i don't see any harm in systems that eliminate or limit problems like this

it is not about giving everyone bis in week 3

but about giving a chance to aquire certain items over time

[quasi socket]

I'd be 100% down to have what FF14 has in terms of gearing

that system (if i'm not mistaken) of killing a boss X times receiving a currency to trade it for a specific loot is real nice

[tight sapphire]

daggers could atleast drop in vault. the so called legendary bow could not. good thing is the bow is so bad that you dont need to farm it in 9.2

[magic peak]

does it matter where you craft your leggos in 9.2?

[hoary zephyr]

Still better than BFA

[flat yacht]

Why ff14? It was in wow ages before...

[kind forum]

dont put it in tier slots but otherwise not really unless you are trying to minmax

[quasi socket]

I'm not a boomer idk about wow loot lore

[wind furnace]

i am unsure

i think bonusrolls did help quite a bit with raid loot

the weekly chest reward structure is a improvement if we look at the weekly chest in isolation

[hoary zephyr]

Bonus roll was good but vault guarantees a loot from 3 different contents of the game

Bonus roll was like what? 2 per week?

Capped too

And costed resources

Or gold

[forest terrace]

bonus roll was %1000000 better for targeting loot

[nova nexus]

they can implement vault plus a bad luck system for content.

it’s not taking anything away from anyone

[forest terrace]

also hollow because of vault they took away 1 loot per boss

its huge

[nova nexus]

and also vault now has even more shit in it (tier) that you’re eventually going to hate seeing with the build a tier approach at week 8

[mellow urchin]

it wasnt because of vault

they reduced gear because they removed WF/TF

and the piece you get is the max version of that piece you will have

so you need less loot to get your bis items

[forest terrace]

iirc it was because of new vault giving 9 options

not wf tf

[mellow urchin]

in a world with wf/tf it was possible to simply never ever be bis

[magic peak]

where are the tier slots going to be? tried to look it up couldn't find it. made it seem like tier slots could be in any slot?

[nova nexus]

where in vault or where in pieces?

[mellow urchin]

"As has been observed in the Beta, loot quantities overall are reduced in Shadowlands. Following the proclamation “let loot be loot”, we’re entering into a world without Warforging and Titanforging, where getting an item from relevant content should feel rewarding on its own more often, without needing to hope for random upgrades."

no it was cus they removed WF/TF

they replaced bonus rolls with the great vault

[kind forum]

There are 5. Head, shoulders, chest, hands, legs?

[mellow urchin]

"Bonus rolls no longer exist, and the Great Vault captures the value they used to provide to raiders. Non-raiders should also factor in the Great Vault, as completing a Mythic Keystone +15 will award a choice of up to three item-level 226 pieces from the Great Vault."

straight from the blizz devs themselves. And I personally prefer 1 less loot piece per raid if it means that loot piece is the best it can be

[forest terrace]

ok

[mellow urchin]

imagine a game where sylv dagger was able to TF +25 ilvls

what a fucking shitshow

[forest terrace]

about wf tf i wish they would somehow keep it for m+ . it killed m+ gearing

[mellow urchin]

ye i agree

m+ items should have some kind of chance to become mythic raiding ilvl

and it should increase by each key level you do

so at like key level 25 you have way higher chance to get mythic raid ilvl loot than a weekly 15

i will never support uncapped TF again tho

that shit was heinous

[magic peak]

@kind forum so if im crafting obedience and finality and i only need 4 tier bonus, id craft head and back yes?

[kind forum]

Well initially you don't really want to block off a tier slot with a legendary to ensure you can get your 4 set with whichever pieces come first

looks like fuu recommends in the subtlety pins finality on back and I dont see a second slot suggestion

for assassination wrists look like the next best place

[glass remnant]

Our tier gloves have kinda bad stats right? So probably wanna go neck until you have 4pc without gloves, then remake for glove?

[wind furnace]

unsure if you mean for unity or for best possible slot

[kind forum]

for unity

[wind furnace]

u will use it on belt

and later on craft it depending on your gear

unity can use all slots

[quasi socket]

belt for sub, wrists for sin

[wind furnace]

idk if belt for sub

esp. if you consider the recrafting stuff

[magic peak]

im assuming sub the best two leggos are obedience and finality?

kinda seem like best for M+ and raiding

which are head and back and chest and back

just want to craft finality and have it ready to upgrade when patch drops

[nova nexus]

why craft it if you’re not using it until 2L are available?

just save your money and craft the r7

[wind furnace]

if you only want to crft 2 probably yes

but akaari is just too strong to miss out on

[wise crescent]

am i blind or didnt we have sims for 278 vs mythic sylv dagger?

[astral dragon]

Thats only when we get double lego tho right

[wind furnace]

yes

rc und obedience are too strong else

if we would play nf or necro we would switch to akaaris

[astral dragon]

It doesnt beat venthyr or kyrian lego even with tier right

[wind furnace]

it is not extremey benhind for kyrian

if you get the 4p

[hushed comet]

We do

[astral dragon]

Cool

[wind furnace]

so you could potentially play 4p + akaari as kyrian

[hushed comet]

Oh no it’s only 285

Just sim yourself when raidbots adds the new gear

And see

[wind furnace]

the 3rd link is with 278 iirc

[wise crescent]

but with hc sylv dagger, or? i have myth dagger and will not get access to 285 dagger 12 weeks. only 278 is possible for me. but i will just sim when i get new weapons

wait im stupid

when hc dagger is better than 278 offhand myth dagger will be also better xD

[hoary zephyr]

Idk, I personally find the vault better than bonus rolls tbh

But just my opinion

[nova nexus]

mythic eon + heroic eon offhand will probably last you until prog is over

[nova nexus]

bonus rolls if I’m remember correctly let me go back and kill say a heroic boss twice and have a chance 3x per week on a specific item

that was better

[wind furnace]

it depends on the context, it is better for general gear aquisation as you have more options now. It is worse for targeting a specific loot piece.

but i don't see why both couldn't co-exist

the discussion wasn't to gut the vault and re-introduce bonus loot, but to have bonus loot as a bad luck protection system

as it is exactly what it fails at

[nova nexus]

honestly in your vault by week 3 you’re praying for specific items

and it’s worse for targeting those

[wind furnace]

else you wouldn't have people with 17 or 20 kills on sylvanas and no dagger

[nova nexus]

rogue vault: daggie prayer circle. bless my phial luck

[wind furnace]

phial is a similar thing

[nova nexus]

anything else and you pretty much don’t give a shit about

[wind furnace]

people did vault every week and still have no max item level phial

9.2 you probably want phial and soleaths

so you increase the chances of getting a powerful item you want

but also get a bigger item pool so have a lower chance to hit the exact one

[nova nexus]

I wonder how tilted people would get if the trinket effects didn’t scale, but only stats.

so if you had a phial you’d just be missing agility without having a max lvl

[wind furnace]

you are funny tbh

you complain that loot is boring, but then suggest to make it even more so

[nova nexus]

i’m asking a question. scaling the effect of phial does not make it any more or less exciting

memory maybe foggy but tier used to scale

[wind furnace]

reducing the power level of any item makes it more or less exciting

tier set did not scale but azerite did

[buoyant gyro]

Back in my day we used gear from a previous tier all the time and we liked it. It was called playing an MMO before they started all this seasonal crap. 🤣

But I’m old school. I think progression should be maintained across multiple raids and all this catch up stuff is ultimately detrimental to the game.

[wind furnace]

I don't know

I like the idea of a clean slate start every tier instead of hopping from mythic to mythic with little upgrades

[nova nexus]

so fuu by your defenition of exciting. having the base phial effect static and multiply the agility based on ilvl is less exciting than having the effect increase but the main stat lower if they accomplish relatively a wash in dps.

[buoyant gyro]

There are pros and cons to both but I personally feel like the game functioned better when there was stratification of progression rather than abstract stratification of “difficulty” only.

[nova nexus]

and it would be less exciting with more agility.

[mossy carbon]

This wouldn't work at all though? A 285 phial with 226 effect would be totally worthless

What is this argument

[nova nexus]

we’re playing a seasonal mmo that is trying to capitalize like mobile games

[nova nexus]

still worthless if the agility scaled accordingly?

[wind furnace]

I wouldn't say its a issue but i think having only mythic relevant for the top end does feel less exciting

[mossy carbon]

yeah

[buoyant gyro]

That being said, I don’t really see why it’s considered strange for a rare proc effect item with higher base ilevel from the current tier to be used for some time. I’d personally find it more dumb to throw it away for some Heroic shitter dagger 2 days into the patch.

[nova nexus]

it’s all just numbers on a boring trinket

[grim rover]

Lol

Koji

[clear zephyr]

Dagger is not a problem the acquisition is

[wind furnace]

scath, my only point is that power level is relevant for excitement

[buoyant gyro]

Sure, acquisition is a problem

But will be this tier too

Will always be

[nova nexus]

so 9.2 is less exciting since we’re dropping power

[clear zephyr]

Agreed

[quasi socket]

sure passive trinkets can be boring, but doing damage is super fun as well

[crisp lichen]

actually so true

[quasi socket]

passive items actually

[buoyant gyro]

Until Blizzard realizes that dagger acquisition is fucked and does something about it

[hoary zephyr]

I liked the idea of going back for previous tier set @buoyant gyro

But

It’s really shit for returning players

[wind furnace]

i would say it def. will feel a bit strange to have a "reset" in terms of power budget in this significance during a xpac

[quasi socket]

yeah I feel like having "chase" items is super fun (as long as you can farm them)

[nova nexus]

but is strange less or more exciting? our power is down so it’s less exciting by definition

[clear zephyr]

Iirc your like -180 dps if you have a 278 mainhand heroic sylv offhand vs 259 off hand

[nova nexus]

unless you didn’t fine blood link and winds of winter exciting

[clear zephyr]

So that’s reasonable if people can’t get the mythic version

[wind furnace]

i can just say from what people told me in previouse xpacs

[buoyant gyro]

People will realistically be farming Sylv for quite a while for the mount. It’s not like people are going to stop killing her anyway.

[hoary zephyr]

The skip exist too

This wasn’t a privilege back in Azshara

[buoyant gyro]

Selling Sylv runs I expect will be a large source of income for many Mythic teams this tier

[wind furnace]

the fight just gets easier, i still think the aquisition is not solved what makes it the biggest problem

[clear zephyr]

Mount sales should be very relevant with set bonuses double legendary and shards imo

[hoary zephyr]

Had to clear entire raid for Font for mages LMAOOOOO

[wind furnace]

you just fall into the farm loop people are already for a while chasing a item from a old raid

[buoyant gyro]

Just wait until we have to do sims for what the best SoD farm gear setup is with set bonus + shards + double legendary…. Smh

[wind furnace]

i think the item is exciting, but the aquisition does take a lot of it away from it

[nova nexus]

if you want older items to be relevant I’m fine with that. I’m used to that. stop making wow a season game then

[grim rover]

Damn boy am I glad I got my mythic daggies on my first kill/first vault

[clear zephyr]

Will be killing sylvanas after the first arrows in p3 🤣

[wind furnace]

people are not excited to loot sylvanas dagger

but releaved

that says a lot

[south osprey]

There are reasons wow peaked with wotlk

[buoyant gyro]

Yeah I mean our power level is dropping in the new raid but not the old one. Some combo of 2x leggo and set bonuses with gems is gonna be omega dps in SoD

[mellow urchin]

i was excited about sylv dagger

[buoyant gyro]

Sylv gonna get obliterated in a few weeks lol

[wind furnace]

sylvanas oneshot soon

[buoyant gyro]

Looking forward to doing like 20k dps in sod sales

[nova nexus]

people still can’t figure out H Sylvanas and we’re expecting M to ge obliterated

[mellow urchin]

guild boosting i guess

[buoyant gyro]

I mean for Mythic guilds doing sales

[clear zephyr]

Yes talking about mount sales

[wind furnace]

just wait some weeks for Rextroy and a "insane oneshot video"

[buoyant gyro]

I pretty much expect to be doing Sylv every week for the next unknown period of time even not needing a dagger

It’s gonna be good money for mount sales and quite easy with new gear

Big reason Font was annoying is there was no Azshara mount

So it was always just an alt/farm run with no sales

[wind furnace]

font was also annoying because of the 25 sec pull timer

[magic peak]

for ST sure but finality is so good for M+ and still decent ST

[buoyant gyro]

On the other hand I killed Jaina like 297474 times

[wind furnace]

yes

[buoyant gyro]

We did Jaina mount sales like the whole damn xpac haha

Sylv gonna be more like that

[wind furnace]

understandable, who does not like to kick jainas ass

[buoyant gyro]

Hard to casually farm, easy to guild farm. Mount drop.

[mellow urchin]

EP didnt have a skip either

iirc

[buoyant gyro]

Yeah true

[mellow urchin]

imagine creating a raid without skip

[buoyant gyro]

That also sucked. EP was a cursed tier.

[mellow urchin]

ye we did azshara during heroic nyalotha

staff + font too good

gearing fire mages

[wind furnace]

i did like some fights in EP

[buoyant gyro]

And I know this doesn’t make people without the dagger feel that much better. But at least I am trying to say there is some silver lining here. That there will probably be a lot of Sylv kills this tier anyway for mount sales.

[wind furnace]

but i think the final boss was not well designed

I am unsure if the people who don't have the dagger fall into the same group that would provide boosts for sylvanas mythic

[buoyant gyro]

I am actually curious what a gear set would be like for that. Why did I have to start thinking about that. 😄

[mellow urchin]

you can do 4pc + dom set right

[wind furnace]

head, shoulders, chest, hand feet for domination

[mellow urchin]

ye ok

[nova nexus]

we don’t do sales and can pretty much guarantee we won’t touch slyv for mounts until 3 months into the patch as they rather focus on doing better with prog than mount farming

[mellow urchin]

doesnt work

[quasi socket]

Hardest part of sales is gonna be kt anyway

[mellow urchin]

i think we killed guldan like 50+ times in legion

for mounts

[buoyant gyro]

lol you’re probably right

[wind furnace]

to be fair, i think you can catchup somewhat if you invest valor

[nova nexus]

also the joys of 2 day raiding and people with a lot of real life commitments

[quasi socket]

Fucked up timings with the massive damage increase is gonna be nice.

[buoyant gyro]

Just blaaaaast

[wind furnace]

also you can always run heroic, as it still would be a strong offhand

and sylvanas heroic might not be that hard to get

[nova nexus]

honest to fuck I rather kill myself than do one more heroic slyv kill

[wind furnace]

(has a lot less pre prequirements to find a group)

[acoustic cobalt]

Would be pretty cool if they figured out a consumable that adds it to a weapon while removing secondary stats, but at a lesser potency to account for higher ilvl

But that’s just me inhaling the copium

[civic terrace]

During prog?

[buoyant gyro]

I mean yeah, we only raid 2 nights so usually we do sales on off-nights 😛

[rapid ledge]

the sylv dagger acquisition is frustrating. but im done with it. fuck this dagger. CE gang no dagger represent for ever.

[civic terrace]

That sounds exhausting, we just stop selling at least until after prog

[buoyant gyro]

Yeah it depends on what's going on

We didn't really do it this tier since there wasn't much to sell. We did do some heroic sales once we didn't need it for gear, but CN sales weren't really a thing since there was no mount

But like we did Jaina sales every week during Nyalotha

[rapid ledge]

the thing is sylvanas will always be an execution fight. banshees fury will still one shot people. i dont think she will get much easier

some dumbass will still find a way to drop between platform in p2

[shut valve]

?

sylv becomes trivial with more gear

WAY more than jaina ever did

1. don't run into your own chain in p1

[civic terrace]

Idk I have successfully pugged heroic sylvanas for months and I would hope that your guild doesnt have people falling off the ledge in mythic

[rapid ledge]

how trivial? the issue isnt about the damage or healing. its about avoiding all the fucking 1 shot

[shut valve]

what fuckin 1 shot

just don't walk into your own chain

and don't jump off in p2

and just dispel in p3

3 trivial mechanics

[civic terrace]

Theres no 1 shots lol

[glass remnant]

the 1 shot of people not getting dispelled when they wander over pools??

[civic terrace]

You dispel them, problem solved

[rapid ledge]

if it happens during reclear imagine how much more it will happen when you havent killed her for 2 month

[quasi socket]

it shouldn't be that hard to not grab a puddle

[glass remnant]

idk i've been pugging it, and you'd be shocked at how stupid some people are in these groups

[rapid ledge]

pugging h sylv is hell

[glass remnant]

i came to terms with it being a fresh and exciting form of self-harm, and then the dagger showed up in my vault

[civic terrace]

You can literally have as many people as you like picking up pools, fury only kills people if they are still on when it ends

Just mass dispel as it ends

No problems ever

[mossy carbon]

But nobody is ever going back to do h sylv, and mythic you can kill it with 12 people next tier, so who cares

[glass remnant]

point is, sylv is a very griefable fight if you're either braindead or a dickhead

[rapid ledge]

the double chain in transition will be tough

[civic terrace]

Its really not. If there is even 1 priest paying attention fury and pools are no factor

With gear arrows arent a problem either

All thats left is falling off the bridge

And idk about your shitty pugs but I don't see that in mine

[glass remnant]

i've had some fucking abysmal pugs

[civic terrace]

And scream, but if you're stacked with someone else thats just as much your fault as it is theirs

[rapid ledge]

pugs are pugs. sometimes you get great ones. but theres terrible ones

[civic terrace]

You leave those

[clear zephyr]

No shot we will get another PTR build right

[glass remnant]

yeah the problem is doing 2 pulls to find out how dogshit the pugs are ends up taking an hour between waiting for the group to pull and then actually fighting the boss for 20 mins lmao

[civic terrace]

Play on wednesday/thursday when it doesnt take an hour to make a group

[glass remnant]

it sure doesn't help that i'm ||australian|| so i can't play at the normal peak times

[vernal folio]

Did you read what I said idiot??? I’ve already got the dagger hahaha.

[vernal folio]

@nova nexus

• I plan on continue playing it as an alt so yuh.

[nova nexus]

who the fuck are you and I don’t give a shit what you have or don’t have.

oh it doesn’t matter who you are.

[vernal folio]

Hahaha who are you???? And you clearly do give a shit or you wouldn’t have said anything.

[nova nexus]

read into shit much?

[vernal folio]

Clearly you do champ

I hope you don’t have a dagger

[steep spear]

[weary goblet]

Someone had their Cheerios pissed in this morning

[clear zephyr]

@wind furnace does haste benefit running NS

[wind furnace]

possible

i assume your question is if running haste is good when playing NS

or the other way around, if NS could become dominant with more haste

[clear zephyr]

Yes both are correct

I am sure it benefits but did not know if it was so negligible you wouldn’t

[wind furnace]

Only venthyr rly benefits a lot from haste

so if anything m+ could benefit from using ns

[clear zephyr]

Makes sense

[acoustic cobalt]

What are the default stats on the unity belt you get from the campaign quest?

[hushed comet]

LMFAO

[pseudo crown]

I managed to get a NM dagger, guess that's that sorted.

[wind furnace]

thats a good start

[pseudo crown]

Had no luck with HC unfortunately

Gotta pray on these last few weeks before sofo.

Doing SoD afterwards seems pretty doomed

[unkempt peak]

Now I feel bad sitting on 4 mythic daggers

[lethal night]

does sound painful

[wind furnace]

whispyr does sit on 7 or so

[barren forge]

JPC is sitting on a set per rogue.

I’m happy with my 1 heroic. Considering I didn’t really raid outside of a pug or 2. Just let it carry me for awhile

[wind furnace]

jpc gets gear funneld tho

[barren forge]

Very true.

Tho he does have crazy good rng.

Loot* rng

[clear zephyr]

James has looted one on jpthree and jclone last 2 raids 👌

[barren forge]

Rngjesus loves the boulder shoulders

[wind furnace]

you just need to work out more to get the dagger

💪 = 🗡️

[barren forge]

I work to much for that, tho I am getting equipments for a home gym. Shits expensive tho

Guess I’ll play a mage till then

Flimsy caster arms

[wind furnace]

just reroll balance

i did hear they are good in bribing the devs to remain overpowered

[barren forge]

Straight up, I’ve tried balance. I can’t do it

[dire perch]

Btw 13 kills and no dagger. Love this game

[barren forge]

Just doesn’t click for me

[next cradle]

Feel the pain bud. I'm around that number too

[silver stratus]

anyone know if this trinket benefits from deep daggers? I tried it in the ptr and it hits around 90-100k but I couldn't see if it benefits from DD

[delicate osprey]

it shoudl do

seems like a cool trinket to pair up with downtimes sadly i think it is a strenght trink

[pseudo crown]

Yeah it's only strength

[unkempt peak]

i do wonder if any of the new trinkets will shake up our bis, or if we will continue to farm phial

maybe satchel from taz

[cerulean prairie]

Refarming phial again 🙃

[mellow urchin]

nerfed

its trash now

[unkempt peak]

i mean the jailer trinket seems interesting? also am i making this shit up or is there a trinket which resets your covenant ability? that would be pretty cool for venthyr

[unkempt peak]

damn, didnt see it got nerfed

[mellow urchin]

door of shadows

not obedience

flag*

[unkempt peak]

well nvm then, that sucks XD

[gusty orbit]

@wind furnace for the unlucky few who are rocking heroic or normal versions of sylv dagger. What is the viability of them as offhand vs any other dagger going into next patch? I saw sims with the mythic version but didn’t see any with other ilvls.

[astral dragon]

its in that same pin isnt it?

@gusty orbit

"comparison of diffrent dagger itemlevels"

[mellow urchin]

its like 150 dps diff right

between mythic/heroic OH

[gusty orbit]

Ah man, I was only looking at the embedded pic, I didnt see the simc had more then the first 4

[wind furnace]

you will use it in offhand on heroic difficultly for sure.

[gusty orbit]

Thanks man for the investigation work 🙂

[wind furnace]

the dagger is just very strong, so you don't want to miss out

[unkempt peak]

the real waifu knifu

[jolly kelp]

Soleash Trinket Nerf impact? Live 233 Trinket: 111 to you and 22 to your partner.
PTR 233 Trinket: 103 to you and 20 to your partner.

[blissful elk]

[blissful elk]

It's still pretty strong from my point of view

It was quite legit, knowing that there is no counterpart, like the one in the eye oO

[winged fiber]

i don't understand the current trend of trinkets with downsides like the eye

hey we made this trinket we think it's cool and we hope you enjoy it, but also if you turn left you lose 30k gold

ISN'T THAT NEAT

like no

no it's not, it's fucking annoying lol

like the jailer trinket

has 3-5 effects and 3-5 different downsides

[blissful elk]

It makes some trinkets huge

[winged fiber]

it isn't necessary though

it doesn't "add" fun or engagement or make things interesting

it's like an annoyance tax

oh hey this is your bis trinket? welllll when you press it if you take damage you get slowed by 1-20%

that's not fun, that's not cool, that's not interesting design wise it's purely just annoying

[limpid lance]

Oh, its one of those fridays. Time to peace out.

[winged fiber]

i mean that's basically the end of my opinion but

yea

i just don't get it lol

[mossy carbon]

What did you think about the gul'dan trinket for spellcasters? gave you faster cast speed then slower cast speed on a proc

[spiral glade]

There was also a buff to the Cache of Acquired Treasures, specifically the axe
"Acquired Axe Grab the weapon from the cache, gaining its benefit.
Effect #1 Apply Aura: Dummy Modifies Damage/Healing Done
Value: 0
(Coefficient :7.70048 > 9.17897)"

[winged fiber]

wasn't that from arcway

[spiral glade]

no that was guldan

[mossy carbon]

Yeah I saw that, you can type "acquired" on wowhead and look at the other buffs you can get

[winged fiber]

regardless it was ok

[mossy carbon]

Procs don't look that great, who knows though

[winged fiber]

mostly just because the steroid was powerful

but the slow didn't make it better

the slow was definitely annoying you just played around it

which is my point though

[mossy carbon]

I would be fine with the jailer trinket if it didn't have the slow, otherwise I don't mind it

[winged fiber]

these "downsides" don't "add" anything positive to the design

it's just oh hey this otherwise fun and or good / powerful trinket has a downside I have to deal with to u se it

an annoyance tax

[spiral glade]

It lets them make the upside more powerful though

[winged fiber]

it doesn't in this case though

[mossy carbon]

If it's good I know most people will macro it to symbols and slam it on cd, personally I like the idea that I can hold off on pressing it if I know I need to move soon

[winged fiber]

or in the oculus trinkets case

oculus trinket has a 100% uptime on every boss

a slow or a slight hp damage

[limpid lance]

U rite, just make trinkets statsticks again so they dont have to think about balancing them at all.

[winged fiber]

doesn't balance the power of a trinket

now the guldan trinket

the downside there actually did balance the power yes

but these don't they're quite literally just annoying little effects

and you can make trinkets interesting without annoyance taxes koffing lol

[limpid lance]

Bruh

[winged fiber]

annoyance taxes on trinkets aren't interesting or fun by any means

[limpid lance]

Thats what Im saying

Just make them stat sticks again

[winged fiber]

oh you weren't being sarcastic

you were being literal

my bad lol

[limpid lance]

Surely thats better right?

Im being sarcastic as fuck man

[winged fiber]

some stat sticks are fine

they're good

but you can just design trinkets other than statsticks

it's not that hard

[limpid lance]

Nononono, just make them stat sticks. All of them. No need for "annoyance tax" or power at all.

Just raw stats.

[winged fiber]

guarantee if you sit down for 5 minutes you can come up with an interesting idea for a trinket

like coral

[limpid lance]

"Stick of power - Increases agility by 50"

[winged fiber]

or font

etc

[limpid lance]

OOOOOOH BEST TRINKET

No annoyance tax at all, just straight power

OOF

[winged fiber]

thought font was mostly just cool because it let you double on use

coral was actually fun

[crisp lichen]

bring back soul cap

[mossy carbon]

I don't understand the love for coral, could be misremembering but I thought you just put it up once and then popped it at 5%

[limpid lance]

"I dont want 125% power trinkets with downsides because that just isnt interesting. Fuck playing around trinkets. Reeeee"

[winged fiber]

that was warriors

[limpid lance]

Is just a minenumbing take

Its so mindnumbing I have typos

[winged fiber]

how is annoyance taxes aren't fun or engaging and don't make good trinket design a mind-numbing take

[limpid lance]

Not at all because of old grandpa fingers

[mellow urchin]

There is just so much negativity about things ppl have never even touched yet

Read a tooltip

Screech

[winged fiber]

i'm not talking about anything specific i'm just talking about the trend of annoyance taxes on trinkets lately

[limpid lance]

"I just want my regular run of the mill 100% power trinkets REEEEE"

[winged fiber]

like the eye trinket