So instead of us staying more relevant you're just afraid that people with daggers are going to outpeform you easier. Its not actually got anything to do with prog
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
civic terrace
nova nexus
and realize they aren’t going to buff the spec to make up for it
livid ferry
Man i hate loot being good
livid ferry
Just give me template characters
nova nexus
9.2 dreadblades gamers
livid ferry
Just weird weird individuals
civic terrace
wind furnace
nova nexus
livid ferry
Ye i want daggers nerfed so much we just equip a stat dagger instantly
That would make me so happy
civic terrace
🤢
livid ferry
Bruh
nova nexus
our tier set not being a joke would make me happy
livid ferry
civic terrace
lol
livid ferry
💀💀💀
nova nexus
Daggers in an execute sim
it fits their agenda
wind furnace
Daggers in an execute sim
somone asked about it
potent vault
No it’s just using it as a comparison tool is moronic
It’s fine to see the value of the execute
But the dagger ain’t gonna be at 4 stacks from start to finish
civic terrace
Good old times 
livid ferry
Someone do like a 246 2x sylv daggers compared to +15 dungeon daggers from next patch
Can even throw an lfr offhand into the mix for dungeon dagger
Cause if you dont have an lfr dagger then youre really just lazy
wind furnace
for what its worth, a normal sylvanas is about on par as a max itemlevel dagger in offhand
dps are a lot more relevant in mainhand
livid ferry
Ye give the dungeon dagger setup an offhand sylv from like normal or lfr
Idk how you wouldn’t have at least that
rapid ledge
lol i leave for 45 min and people are still arguing about the dagger. just because you have it doesnt mean its not OP.
livid ferry
Just because you dont have it doesnt mean its op
rapid ledge
no but the sims say so
livid ferry
How so
rapid ledge
so maybe im dumb. or maybe you are. either way we wont know
wind furnace
can we not insult each other, thanks
livid ferry
The loot piece is powerful
I dont see the issue
You just want every patch to replace every piece of gear you have?
Seems like you’re just chasing green numbers on sim
Dopamine demon
empty pulsar
Is the sodium content always this high or what
civic terrace
Your definition of OP is "better than current tier items whilst not from the current tier"
I think thats rather narrowminded
livid ferry
Im just telling people stuff they dont wanna hear
rapid ledge
this guy raise it by a lot 
rapid ledge
man i dont need your condenscending tone.
mental estuary
Lol.
Idk, whole thing just frustrating. I like the Dagger, I think it's cool, and having powerful loot is a good thing.
The thing is the loot system is so shit that when one piece of loot is that powerful it just skews and ruins the game.
civic terrace
It ruins the game because you dont have it?
mental estuary
Half of you were up in arms when you were late on getting Dom shards, is the same shit.
livid ferry
Bro it just sounds like you’re worried other rogue is gonna own you on the meters during your trial
wind furnace
was there balancing done in mythic week last 2 tiers
livid ferry
How many times have you non dagger havers killed sylvanas on heroic normal and lfr
mental estuary
Except Dom shards are guaranteed drops. :D
pliant minnow
Dopamine demon
mine wont give up the goods :/
livid ferry
Ye im with you guys on the loot system being dog shit
Being mad good loot exists that carries over into next patch
Weird individual activities
Odd behavior
wind furnace
the bottom line is, there is a big incentive to keep the dagger good because we don't know how tuning will be done
livid ferry
Its also just.. cool
mental estuary
I have a Heroic Dagger. Killed her every week on Heroic. Killed her over 10 times in mythic too, but no dice. Which I know is low.. I'm not saying I couldn't have killed her more.
rapid ledge
its not 2007 my dude. tbc is done and gone. wow has been a new patch new gear since at least legion
civic terrace
I cant wait to not have to get any new weapons next tier at all
That sounds pog AF
wind furnace
on the flip side, if they tune around having the dagger, it also means that we will be weaker than we could be 😛
potent vault
its not 2007 my dude. tbc is done and gone. wow has been a new patch new gear si...
No it hasn’t
Legion had some previous tier sets being stronger than current
wind furnace
convergence of fate was nerfed
potent vault
And a weapon you kept in off hand into next tier
livid ferry
🤣
wind furnace
just to make the "nerfs never happen" argument
potent vault
None of the BFA items were nerfed
Despite being used into late next tier and for all of prog
wind furnace
ye probably
livid ferry
Man its crazy
mental estuary
But you're also being disingenuous to some degree with the argue you're making. Hard to kill a hard boss more if you lack the items to get in a group that is better than your typical group.
But you're right, it is possible. I just think it's really crappy design.
livid ferry
People cry about lack of rpg elements in modern wow
Then people cry about rpg elements being too strong so they cant get their green number fix
potent vault
But you're also being disingenuous to some degree with the argue you're making. ...
You don’t need the best gear to climb guilds
wind furnace
People cry about lack of rpg elements in modern wow
you spelled rng wrong 😛
livid ferry
Nah
civic terrace
more rng? 
wind furnace
so, 9.2 announcement soon?
pliant minnow
tmrw
livid ferry
Can i ask what big content are people pushing to be so up in arms against the dagger
pliant minnow
promise
wind furnace
Can i ask what big content are people pushing to be so up in arms against the da...
i can't see anyone at the top being up in arms against the dagger, most had more then enough time to get their hands on it
i think its even very nice if you have 2 mythic ones as it removes any care about daggers during the entire next tier
civic terrace
Got 8 months to get a dagger across 4 different difficulties, not quite sure how you could have no version at all at this stage tbh
rapid ledge
Got 8 months to get a dagger across 4 different difficulties, not quite sure how...
class reroll?
empty pulsar
I just don't understand the argument that you have to pushing 'big content' for your opinion to matter
wind furnace
for offhand
nova nexus
Can i ask what big content are people pushing to be so up in arms against the da...
my 2 day a week ce guild was more upset about not having the mog than the dps
livid ferry
Im not saying your opinion doesnt matter im saying you dont need the dagger for the content
You are saying its like mandatory
To even enter a raid
Or dungeon
civic terrace
I just don't understand the argument that you have to pushing 'big content' for ...
Well the fact is just that in the "less big" content you really dont need the bleeding edge of gear
mental estuary
I've been CE every patch I've played. Lower end though, like world 5k or so. @DK
But even still, like I said, just inherently a bad design to have so much power locked where most people can't get it depending on rng.
wind furnace
i think the argument is that not having a certain power item makes the content for your guild harder, not only you
potent vault
You’ll have full tier set and double lego and just higher ilvl in general
wind furnace
and this is correct
nova nexus
I've been CE every patch I've played. Lower end though, like world 5k or so. @D...
play a fire mage in 8.3. one dagger ain’t shit
potent vault
You nerfing the dagger basically just fucks any rogues playing at a higher level
And probably kills sub this tier
civic terrace
I would keep it at possibly but ye
rapid ledge
And probably kills sub this tier
for 1% of the rogues
mental estuary
I don't want to nerf the Dagger. -_-
Yall don't listen, lol.
potent vault
for 1% of the rogues
Yes because history has shown when assa and sub are close
livid ferry
Ye i mean the most hilarious irony in all of this is
potent vault
That sub is the preferred choice to most raiders
livid ferry
The people that want it nerfed
potent vault
Definitely
livid ferry
Dont realize the spec and class will be substantially worse
nova nexus
would have solved this by just making it orange
livid ferry
So they won’t even get brought anyway
Because they’ll never actually do counterweight buffs to a nerf like this
So ye i mean get your class nerfed cuz you don’t have an item then enjoy bench pov
nova nexus
at the rate they’re going I expect more tier set nerfs
mental estuary
would have solved this by just making it orange
I'm surprised they didn't make it orange, tbh.
nova nexus
and OWS should be an orange trinket
or we can just have powerful item
and not be a little bitch when we don’t have them
fuck i really wish mystler got CE as NF Sub
buoyant schooner
and OWS should be an orange trinket
That'd be great for the warrior in my guild that has gotten it 5 times in a row from the box but still doesn't have mythic jaithys
nova nexus
That'd be great for the warrior in my guild that has gotten it 5 times in a row ...
say hi to critcake
livid ferry
We’ve never seen it since 1st kill
Or it was 2nd ider
but we've probably seen like 40 necks
civic terrace
Last week we saw the first veinripper in 15 clears
livid ferry
civic terrace
Good times
nova nexus
jpc first raid to gear his warrior fir loot trading got it. haha
wind furnace
That sub is the preferred choice to most raiders
unsure, i think a lot of ppl like assassination a lot
nova nexus
unsure, i think a lot of ppl like assassination a lot
they do
buoyant schooner
Yea, it's crazy to me that even with 5ish 2h users we still haven't gotten him any
potent vault
unsure, i think a lot of ppl like assassination a lot
Yes I was being sarcastic
wind furnace
oh, sry missed that
mental estuary
Oh, lol, I was confused too.
nova nexus
fuck at this point i may like it better come 9.2
mental estuary
Lol fuu
nova nexus
wind furnace
maybe we get a release candidate
mental estuary
Yeah, that would be good. I'm still curious to see if blizzard does any tuning with Leggos with some of their tier set changes.
nova nexus
sub rogues already have 2 excuses for bad dps in 9.2. no daggies and bad rng.
potent vault
maybe we get a release candidate
mental estuary
sub rogues already have 2 excuses for bad dps in 9.2. no daggies and bad rng.
You forgot the classic "I'm actually stopping dps unlike the rest of you animals."
nova nexus
https://tenor.com/view/what-are-you-talking-about-huh-what-what-are-you-saying-stirring-gif-17820207
mellow urchin
i am hyped to see ptr update today
wasnt it yesterday
or did blizzard just post notes
wind furnace
the updated yesterday was iirc not labled as release candidate
mellow urchin
yea but why would there be a ptr build today if there was one already
wind furnace
the twitter about 9.2 news
nova nexus
the updated yesterday was iirc not labled as release candidate
only to give feral a glimmer of hope that they’ll revert some of the nerfs. 
wind furnace
i could remember it wrong but isn't RC usually 2 weeks before content release?
mental estuary
https://tenor.com/view/what-are-you-talking-about-huh-what-what-are-you-saying-s...
You telling me you didn't spend half of prog for the tier pushing too fast and getting told to not touch the boss?
Man I need a new guild. Lol.
civic terrace
i could remember it wrong but isn't RC usually 2 weeks before content release?
Depends how stable it is i guess
Think a lot of lower ranked guilds are just too insecure to improvise and would rather do it exactly by the "book" provided by top end guilds
Thus having you stop dps on dumb shit like eye of the jailer just so you dont have an add in the intermission
nova nexus
holding dps is just a game of chicken. get your cds in before the other dps gets theirs in and assume they are in the wrong
nova nexus
well with assa, two jobs. PUMP and stay awake
mellow urchin
On any fight
civic terrace
well with assa, two jobs. PUMP and stay awake
Latter is very hard tbh
Only for the most advanced players
nova nexus
it was easier in a 3 hour raid night. hour 4 being from 11p-12a and the struggle is real
civic terrace
6 hours a week is plenty tyvm
mental estuary
Biggest problem for me I think is, particularly with my current guild, usually I've figured out my shit on what we dying to hours ago.
mellow urchin
That means replace or swap guild
mental estuary
Yeah. You probably right.
civic terrace
I mean thats often what progress is. Boss dies when the slowest guy in the raid catches on
livid ferry
is uhh having 2 heroic sylv daggers instead of 1 252 and 1 heroic sylv dagger a gain on sub
mellow urchin
I mean thats often what progress is. Boss dies when the slowest guy in the raid ...
In bad guilds ye
One thing making mistakes, another not even understanding the fight
civic terrace
Well even in good ones right, unless you're all pulling up at the same time but ive never seen that in any guild to this day
I did mean mistakes too. Some people just need more time than others
mellow urchin
Well, you replace them continuously
Until you are the one thats slow
And then you quit
civic terrace
But ye if that gap is very large you may want to weigh your place in your guild
mellow urchin
guild building is a fun thing
wind furnace
I think that not every guild has the luxury of a big amount of ppl to replace
mellow urchin
we replaced like 4-5 ppl after every raid up until like EP?
and after that its at most 1-2 if any
wind furnace
the max raidlead thing also did spark some funny things
mellow urchin
I think that not every guild has the luxury of a big amount of ppl to replace
bad excuse, we play on a dogtamer realm with like 3k players
and can do it
wind furnace
yes ofc
but e.g. the level of play your guild is at determinates how likely it is for people of a higher play level to join
mellow urchin
you shouldnt aim to find a bunch of wr 200 players if ur wr 800
wind furnace
if you build a guild that clears heroic, going to go world 200 won't be easy
civic terrace
I havnt actually seen a lot of rotation in any guild ive been in
But tbh usually it was me that was rotating out to greener pastures 
wind furnace
also you need to be very drastic with replacing people, social aspecs can't matter
mellow urchin
it took us like 1-2 years to reach wr 250 from 1500
you need a very good core i think
me and the GM in my guild are the 2 ppl remaining since the 1500 days
wind furnace
you need a lot of ppl who are motivated enough to push a certain goal
mellow urchin
and we decided to just ramp hard as fuck back then
yea and you need leaders that are willing to put in the time
its not all about recruitment either, need to be smarter about strategy as well
wind furnace
thats what i mean, if you have a more community-like guild you won't just replace 2/3 of your raid team
what you probably need to if you want to get a good core
mellow urchin
i mean my guild was a community guild, filled with terrible players. We said "sorry but we are going to push harder so we have to replace you, but you will always have a place in the guild and our discord to hang out"
wind furnace
and they will leave
civic terrace
I dont have the patience for that stuff honestly
mellow urchin
they dont always leave, we have like 5+ players still in the guild from the 1500 days that join us on normal clears when a new raid releases
civic terrace
I just skip the line and find a good guild
wind furnace
i can only say from experience
mellow urchin
I just skip the line and find a good guild
but then ur just another trial
to me, building something has been very fun
and rewarding
wind furnace
that we did replace people that did peform rly rly bad only, so you would need to be hyper pepega to even get close to that
civic terrace
I always got through to the core very quickly
potent vault
to me, building something has been very fun
Stepping stones Push
wind furnace
and everyone we did talk with and did say, we like you... etc. did just straight out leave
mellow urchin
i mean my guild is 95% scandinavian, there is a very collectivist culture in our countries that put high value on doing something as a unit, not individual ranks or whatever
wind furnace
because people inherently don't feel like underperforming even if you talk to them directly about mistakes
mental estuary
Well even in good ones right, unless you're all pulling up at the same time but ...
I think this patch was particularly rough because of how much personal responsibility in some of the fights.
Painful doing Painsmith or Sylv 100 times right while the same 3 wipe you continuously.
mellow urchin
and everyone we did talk with and did say, we like you... etc. did just straight...
yea those exist, but fuck em
if they cant take it as a normal person, who cares, let em move on
civic terrace
i mean my guild is 95% scandinavian, there is a very collectivist culture in our...
Im a team player through and through, just dont mind changing my jersy so much
I cba playing at a rank that doesnt suit me for a long period of time
mental estuary
The other one I've seen is you talk to one and say they need to be better, then them and several buddies leave. Then you're in roster boss hell.
civic terrace
Thats just frustrating
mental estuary
It is cringe. But it's common unfortunately.
civic terrace
Ye
mellow urchin
from the get go
civic terrace
Out with that shit
wind furnace
absolutely
mellow urchin
its very bad
civic terrace
Idk why people do that either..
If you're even somewhat intelligent you have to realise that the second you or your friend doesnt perform up to par you'd run into issues
You pick one side you get shit with your friend, you choose the other and you get shit with your guild
Lose lose situation 100% of the time
mental estuary
ye and you NEVER accept friend packages
Yeah but friend packages happen naturally sometimes too.
civic terrace
Established players befriending oneanother is a different story. As long as you both understand that your position within the guild isnt something to take for granted just because of that friendship
And friendships and cliques are 2 entirely different things
mental estuary
Yeah, I don't disagree.
Just very possible for them to develop. You throw 20 people together and make them spend 8-16 hrs a week working at a common goal, friendships happen easily.
Not much of a stretch for that to turn into cliques.
civic terrace
Well you should be on the lookout for that and stop it before it goes too far
Its fine for people to be friends, its not fine for people to end up putting their interests above that of the guild
buoyant gyro
ye and you NEVER accept friend packages
Have been in guild leadership since vanilla and the number of packages that have worked out easily has to be in single digits lol
Agree it's almost always a really bad idea
Unless there is some known factor about both players, relationship with other guildies already, or you're like 110% sure both will be perfect fits etc.. you're just always gonna run into problems otherwise. It's just super rare for it to work out.
robust lotus
Do set pieces still have placeholder stats on ptr?
wind furnace
maybe they are not placeholder stats
nova nexus
maybe the devs actually think EVERYONE loves haste because it’s noticeable
or sub is just an emotional experiment to see if the players will crack between the rng and shit stat allocation.
civic terrace
mossy carbon
Do set pieces still have placeholder stats on ptr?
Yes they do, as fuu says they may well not be placeholder. To be fair there are still clearly some dodgy values, the trinket from the council boss has like 1k secondary stats on mythic
robust lotus
I did think as much
buoyant gyro
maybe the devs actually think *EVERYONE* loves haste because it’s noticeable
I guess they probably feel like putting Crit/Vers on everything is "boring" even though that'd probably be the most optimal for 3 different specs
wind furnace
is "haste on everything" a better option tho
buoyant gyro
Depends on if you're an Assassination player or not 😄
But realistically I'd say for sets they should round-robin the stats a little better
nova nexus
I guess they probably feel like putting Crit/Vers on everything is "boring" even...
it is what it is. I’m not quite at feral levels of disappointment yet with the spec, but getting closer by the day.
mellow urchin
maybe they are not placeholder stats
idk id hope they just didnt copy stats from SoD and call it a day
its literally the exact same stats on the exact same slot
you dont think thats sketchy?
the haste/mastery gloves in 9.2 are the only ones not copying SoD gear
wind furnace
it is, but we assume a release soon, and time to change things get tighter if that is true
mellow urchin
not to mention that the tier sets were literally just SoD items both visually and stat wise in the first ptr build
and likely not changed since except for the appearance
pale jetty
I don't think those are the stats
Plus there are variants of the pieces anyways
Which must have diff stats
nova nexus
I think stat allocation is least of their concerns.
mellow urchin
i did a comparison between the set pieces and its literally the exact same as sod
pale jetty
Yes with exception to gloves
mellow urchin
y
pale jetty
I don't think final stats are in place yet
Seems highly unlikely
And as I said, there isn't only one piece in the raid
You're not gonna have just one pair of pants
Also accessories haven't even been touched
nova nexus
the other pants are boe probably.
pale jetty
What rings/necks drop from raid
buoyant gyro
ngl the thing that bugs me most about the set is the whack shoulder animation when running
nova nexus
quite possible this is it
pale jetty
Each boss will have 1-2 leather items
buoyant gyro
I'm transmogging this set to something else immediately 😦
pale jetty
On average
Meaning there's going to be at the very least 12 pieces of leather if you're being realistic
nova nexus
but now your leather is also a tier loot item
mellow urchin
ngl the thing that bugs me most about the set is the whack shoulder animation wh...
the spikes break apart
yikers
mellow urchin
stats are static
pale jetty
We prioritize agi above all else at the beginning anyways
nova nexus
trying to figure out wtf they are thinking is hilarious and futile at the same time
pale jetty
Wym push
buoyant gyro
stats are static
Actually I thought people had confirmed the stats mutated in the GV forge mechanic
pale jetty
So if you turned a Crit vers piece into tier it won't have Crit vers?
mellow urchin
no thats to prevent ppl feeling like they have to farm perfect stats
nova nexus
have fun pvp
coarse quiver
too similar to reforging
pale jetty
But people want to farm gear
People like farming gear as long as it isn't locked behind some stupid system
mellow urchin
how do you farm it
the items from m+ are 272
you would have to luck it out in the vault
buoyant gyro
I guess it's just for the fake "tier" pieces that aren't tier pieces but just for xmog then?
e.g. boots?
mellow urchin
ye
buoyant gyro
Right ok
pale jetty
Ye but like if you get a good piece from vault
Idk man just put mop reforging back in
Stupid ass game
nova nexus
it’s pretty crazy how little customization you can do in all aspects of the game.
south osprey
Reforging with hit/exp was dumb but reforging now would be so good
nova nexus
color in the lines. 3 colors to choose from.
south osprey
Get shit stat high itemlvl, make it usefull
mental estuary
it’s pretty crazy how little customization you can do in all aspects of the game...
I mean, even if there was "customization" ultimately will never be lots of customization because people will just pick the most efficient highest dps option.
nova nexus
I mean, even if there was "customization" ultimately will never be lots of cust...
do better at making the talents interesting and more competitive with each other
spend some actual time developing the specs
vs copy/past assa 6 tiers running
shit probably longer than that
time is a blur now
mental estuary
Is there actually any value to that?
Even if say gloomblade is say 0.25% DPS behind Weaponmaster... everyone is still going to play Weaponmaster.
And you're increasing the design / balancing effort required probably 10 fold...
mental estuary
Only real benefit is to non-competitive players who could be appeased by blizzard spending less time and money into making fun mini games and shit.
mental estuary
they just tossed it there
Same thing goes for every row of talents.
Hell even conduits.
nova nexus
balancing bad talents isn’t going to make a bad talent a good or interesting talent so why do you care if wm and gloomblade are balanced? answer is you don’t.
carmine wasp
Id much rather them spend more time and energy on the base toolkits and abilities and talents of a spec rather than attempt to cover up poor design and inadequacies with borrowed power systems on top of borrowed power systems, and then having to attempt to balance all of those systems
mental estuary
balancing bad talents isn’t going to make a bad talent a good or interesting tal...
Right. We don't care.
So why are you asking blizzard to balance them? Lol.
carmine wasp
Just look at outlaw in 9.1, it would be awful if there wasn 17-20% of free damage coming from frost shards, and then another 10%+ from trinkets that perform very well for outlaw, and then sylv dagger etc. The base spec power varies wildly between specs, which is why it doesnt make much sense to me when they say they want to try and make everyones tier set approximately the same 12-14% dps or w/e
nova nexus
Right. We don't care.
So why are you asking blizzard to balance them? Lol.
are you really this dense?
between EoN and this. lol.
mental estuary
Ah. The personal attack.
I just don't see how blizzard buffing gloomblade changes your post experience at all. Why should they bother?
nova nexus
i know words are a struggle for me at times.
pulsar axle
Just look at outlaw in 9.1, it would be awful if there wasn 17-20% of free damag...
But it is a better strategy holding less variables as making tier the same power
nova nexus
where the fuck does that say make GB and WM equal?
mental estuary
OK, but whether they're equal or just "more balanced" what does that change in the equation?
Whether gloomblade is closer to WM or not, you're going to play WM.
pulsar axle
OK, but whether they're equal or just "more balanced" what does that change in ...
Why?
It could be situational
mental estuary
Because it's not actually a choice, it's an illusion of choice. Just like conduits, Leggos, or gear.
nova nexus
OK, but whether they're equal or just "more balanced" what does that change in ...
are you just trolling? please stop
pulsar axle
Your words don't make sense. If it is close and situation permits, you can choose it.
pulsar axle
Just look at outlaw in 9.1, it would be awful if there wasn 17-20% of free damag...
It is also like 18% for assassination. Null point.
pulsar axle
Because it's not actually a choice, it's an illusion of choice. Just like condui...
Actually you can choose whatever you want as long as you don't care your personal damage, your raid still loves you, you don't feel guilty for your raid and the boss is killed.
mental estuary
Your words don't make sense. If it is close and situation permits, you can choos...
Sure, but they never will be that close. It's like MtG, there will always be good choices and bad choices.
The other thing is actually making them that close takes a ton of extra work. Blizzard already struggles to balance just the specs they have. Now you add an extra viable talent choice for every single dps talent in the game.... you've literally tripled the effort.
But no one is going to play "sort of close to WM" gloomblade. That's just wasted dev time that's not value added.
I would rather that time be put into content.
mossy carbon
So why do talents exist in your opinion?
Surely they are a waste of dev time and you shouldn't get to choose
pulsar axle
Sure, but they never will be that close. It's like MtG, there will always be go...
But it is not always solely determined by dmg. GB certainly has its own advantage like not so needing back position compared to backstab. It's not a clear one but it exists.
mental estuary
So why do talents exist in your opinion?
Because not all players have the same goals. Here at a class discord we're competitive players that will choose the strongest choice. Some players just want the most convenient or the most fun. For those players, they'll play gloomblade because they like the shadow theme whether it's actually 5% less damage than WM or not.
So what is actually gained by balancing or making then closer to one another?
mossy carbon
Gloomblade is a bad example because it should be baked into the base kit and is overall really bad, but if it was tuned stronger it could potentially be an alternative on fights where you can only hit the boss from the front like Fallen Avatar (some people did play gloomblade on this as I remember even if it wasn't actually best) or Eye
nova nexus
when your talents are boring & unimaginative the talents need the rework. find balance once you have good talents and not some shit spell that should replace backstab by default or actually do something impressive.
you’re only working under the assumption that they put more than an hour into designing some of the talents.
they need to fix the base talents of the specs so the choices are actually interesting and there maybe a real reason to take a different talent in a different encounter instead of lulz patchwerk sims.
go look at Havoc. you can actually play close to 85% of the talents competitively
but ya know. keep focused on 
mental estuary
Really. Kind of strange, seems like DHs just play an AoE and a ST talent spread and that's it.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/28#class=DemonHunter&spec=Havoc
I wonder why that is, if they have all this competitive choice?!
coarse quiver
idek what the discussion is about or what side/position youve taken but im willing to bet thats a really bad example either way
mossy carbon
You can literally go here and check what different talents they are playing on a pure single target boss, and there is a significant variation on most rows
Here is sub for comparison
Taking bets on what your next trash argument is btw - so far we've had "muh daggers" and "muh talents"
coarse quiver
yeah, told ya that was a really easy arguement to deconstruct either way
mental estuary
I'm actually not the one complaining about talents...
buoyant gyro
You can literally go here and check what different talents they are playing on a...
I mean for as many issues as Havoc has with the core rotation
Havoc easily has one of the best designed talent trees in the game
But it's also the most recently designed talent tree in the game
nova nexus
ask koji how much fun checking all the havoc talents are lol
buoyant gyro
The downside to this however, is I feel like the diverse talents make it very hard for them to do things with the core spec correctly. Their options for a set bonus for example are very limited when half the spec's abilities are optional.
So borrowed power for Havoc tends to be like
When you Chaos Strike your Chaos Strike Chaos Strikes 10% more Chaosstrikier
So there's pros and cons to that model
coarse quiver
The downside to this however, is I feel like the diverse talents make it very ha...
i feel like it can also have the opposite effect, in that if you have so many good talents you REALLY need to reach and make a more unique tier set
buoyant gyro
All that being said, yes I do feel like far more talent trees should be like Havoc that actually see more varied situational usage
nova nexus
i think thats the argument
this all started for a jumping off point of there's very little customization with any aspect of the game. someone decided that we're just going to pick whats best so who cares. my entire tirade is that if the talents were well designed first, then balanced accordingly people would actually care.
buoyant gyro
Rogue talent trees are very limited and have been for a long time
mental estuary
Also they don't even have that much variation. When you check at parses above 75% it drops quite significantly. Yeah it's 60/40 with entire pool, but the best DH are don't 85/15 for all talents that effect dps on a given fight.
buoyant gyro
I mean it tends to be 1-2 specs are dominant in a particular tier gearing meta
mental estuary
Does it really make your experience better to have to use 4 books every time you clear?
mossy carbon
Also they don't even have that much variation. When you check at parses above 75...
can you just stop typing
buoyant gyro
The difference being they have the opportunity for quite a few different build-around builds
Havoc has had more different builds in like 3 tiers than Rogues have had in 3 expansions 😛
nova nexus
assa's big game changing design, shiv after sepsis and profit lol
yay subterfuge again
except no SS
sadge
if specs got 1/2 the dev time that they spent fixing poorly implemented borrowed power systems, all of them would see improvement in their gameplay loops
hell, how many bugs did premed have when it was done?
can't get one talent change done
BFA we had 2 missing talents or incomplete talents on the last row basically up until launch
buoyant gyro
Like Sub is basically locked into WM/Deeper/ES/MoS for anything non-AoE for the indefinite future with the only thing even close being SF vs. NS, which is purely an energy regen threshold.
mossy carbon
The downside to this however, is I feel like the diverse talents make it very ha...
I agree with this, but I think having closely balanced talent choices offers you the potential for set bonuses that benefit a particular playstyle (although not everyone will like this ofc) and you can mix this up across tiers to introduce variety.
If you wanted to do the same thing with rogue you would have to make the set bonus extremely strong to counteract the loss from selecting a normally sub-optimal talent
nova nexus
there is no viable choice in trying to adjust how my damage output flows. the patterns (of anything remotely competitive) from what fuu has shared all have very little variance.
buoyant gyro
And time flies when you're having fun, but by the end of the xpac that basically means Sub players will not have needed to even think about changing any talent other than Tornado (and even then.. probably could get by without it lol) for 2-2.5 years since the prepatch at the end of 2020, based on whenever the next xpac comes. 😄
Which is kinda hilarious
nova nexus
2 dance charges. one talent an amp, one a cdr. ITS NOT HARD
delicate osprey
bring back anticipation
buoyant gyro
Feel like it's certainly problematic and a really large indictment on the state of talent design if nobody changes any talents for an entire xpac due to complete lack of need or viability.
civic terrace
Or a complete lack of time due to preoccupation with bs systems
buoyant gyro
We just haven't found the right niche for SecTec yet 🤣
nova nexus
we did. it was dfa
now please add sectech to the talent pruning
the sequel rarely lives up to the original.
buoyant gyro
If SecTec got buffed probably everyone would end up using it over MoS, but MoS is also easily one of the most lame talents in the history of talents
nova nexus
mos and poison bomb when will they end
i would just like to see a little passion, any little bit, redirected to the spec designs themselves.
buoyant gyro
Most everything goes into borrowed power
nova nexus
yea
and then thrown overboard when they realize they should have listened
still triggered by azerite
can’t even test it proper and the feedback was dead on
nova nexus
i enjoyed the raids
which is usually the case
3 hamster wheel expansions in a row, really hoping something changes with 10. not holding my breath
civic terrace
Yep
pulsar axle
It seems if you cry hard enough, the nerf could be for only one day. Oh, my blz
pulsar axle
Yes, they can alter time
mellow urchin
the nerf killed frost completely tho
winged fiber
same with the rogue nerf
UNBELIEVABLY DISMANTLED
we demand justice #revertthenerf
civic terrace
Meh rather not tbh
mellow urchin
their icy veins went from 99% to 60%
iirc
imagine a frost mage without icy veins
not a functional spec
thick wren
well now when tier works with legendaries and ER I think it is even a buff, the amount of dps gained from synergy and scaling outweights nerfs.
I dont have numbers tbh
mellow urchin
Ye make the entire spec useless cus you didnt get the item
mellow urchin
well now when tier works with legendaries and ER I think it is even a buff, the ...
Its not
Its according to numbers that might be inaccurate around 1000 dps lost, give or take
Add potential destruction of daggers cus of casuals complaining and the spec is probably dead cus its an rng shitfest
thick wren
Oh, thank you
Potential destruction you mean EoN nerf?
Well at least sub is (or soon was) playable and it’s good
Not a fan of going full assa again ):
sharp pebble
how is them nerfing an item from last tier making the spec useless
thick wren
A reasonable guild that sells/farms Sylvanas for mountscould provide it, given that we can cross 3 DomGems and 4pc, sylvanas should fall in turbo mode
10 minutes
silver forum
the daggers are like a 2% difference from the preliminary sims right now. It's definitely not going to be as impactful as font was
thick wren
for minmaxers 2% is a lot, same for casual minmaxers who never finished mythic painsmith 2% is a good enough reason to cry on forums
got my first dagger yesterday and I thought game is over, would be okay with 1 in offhand. Then I checked pins and starting this newgame+
it is good reasoning to get them now and don't bother for couple of weeks/months until getting 285's. So IMO having 2 almost-endgame weapons from the start is as impactful as font was
civic terrace
None of this shit matters unless you're playing in HoF
And if you are, you have them already
A nerf to eon wouldnt be a buff to you, it would just be a nerf to everyone that has eon. Your run of the mill WR500 guild isnt going to clear the raid any slower because you've not got eons 
buoyant gyro
I mean the impact is maybe slightly higher than average, but don't really see how this is any different than any normal gear that will be replaced. Getting BiS in the previous tier will always have some small advantage until you replace it. But having only 1 isn't gonna be a major problem.
thick wren
Not calling for a nerf but as a typical rpg enjoyer I think it’s ok to want to kill bosses and get best gears, no matter hof or not
unkempt peak
its hard to say if they will nerf it or not, I think the latest they could nerf it is heroic week? and usually they are pretty good at giving heads up a week or so in advance that a certain item is on the nerf radar, If they do nerf it I think they are full embracing that WoW is a seasonal game, rather than a live service model because they usually allow a couple of powerful items people tend to enjoy through the cracks - and EoN is really just contained to rogues unlike font.
question is, if they nerf it - would you rather see a flat number nerf or would you rather see the stats stay the same, but 'Unique Equip'
buoyant gyro
Considering MH is a huge upgrade as per the pins, I'm not really sure it's something I'd be overly concerned with
OH is a terrible slot for us anyway, it's not like it's really ever exciting to get an OH weapon upgrade 😛
unkempt peak
is MH 278 a upgrade as well? or is it only 285? because the latter only drops off the second to last boss on mythic
100% agree, long run its not gonna make the biggest difference, but if it gets a big divers folly style nerf its gonna hurt sub on prog
buoyant gyro
Diver's Folly didn't get nerfed during active content though
wind furnace
We just haven't found the right niche for SecTec yet 🤣
right niche, you mean it dealing shadow damage and working with fw?
buoyant gyro
Shadowy Clones not dealing Shadow damage smh
wind furnace
To be fair, secret would probably be the play if BP was never introduced
the main reason it is now a dead talent was that power dynamics of talents were not considered when changing other parts of the toolset (buffing BP, Tornado interaction with FW)
Also i think the dark/ES/alacrity would not be as extreme if the spec stayed with the bfa/legion shadow dance + talent setup
wind furnace
Considering MH is a huge upgrade as per the pins, I'm not really sure it's somet...
They are also very strong by boosting our baseline by ~1k dps, what makes rogue a class that can stand out when losing domination
nova nexus
people worrying about daggers. have fun when “the other rogue” has 4p and you’re sitting 
with only having 1p because loot acquisition is still bad and the BLP doesn’t kick in until way later.
delicate osprey
dont worry blp kicks in just right enjoy rings and necks
nova nexus
true
delicate osprey
or maybe some cloaks too to be daring
nova nexus
getting MA as your 12th Lego was fun. 
wind furnace
i am not saying that you are correct, there is no rason to complain about daggers. They are rly good!
nova nexus
make all loot the same, also why is all loot boring?
wind furnace
but saying tier set rng exist as a argument against dagger power level is not rly clicking for me
nova nexus
it’s loot acquisition
people wouldn’t give a shit about daggers if they felt they actually had a chance for them blp or something mentally that says you’ll get one at some point
facts be facts weapons suck on specs that have no one else to share with
nova nexus
sitting yourself on mythic boss reclears (if you have the option) to avoid taking away heroic vault options for the dagger during prog tells you how bad the loot acquisition is.
wind furnace
yes and 9.1.5 had a lot of issues that could have been avoided if wow did use a iterative development model
what i try to do here is not to paint any person who works on the game bad or say they are wrong
i am sure they all do their best to deliver a great product
but you can't ignore the fact that systems and problem get repeated every xpac and often even within a xpac
a iterative approach would usually allow to take a step back, eveluate and see what was recived well and what wasn't
what would not eliminate the problem of creating new problems but would reduce it
e.g. the lesson learned from corruption was that having something with a high power level bound to random acquisition was bad
the solution was a vendor back then
now in SL in 9.1 we again had a high power budget bound to random acquisition with domination sockets + shards
nova nexus
everything just seems to fall short of being really fun and enjoyable (torghast, rep grinds, rng power acquisition …). maybe the majority of the player base plays with blinders on and doesn’t care and we’re just “entitled raiders”
torghast was awesome on beta. then it died
at some point, there is actually someone that is in charge of managing the game and its development. call it out or remain silent.
I can love my job, but if I’m pissing people off at every turn eventually I have to answer for it unless I’m the owner. then I answer for it financially. just seems to be a bubble that surrounds “passion” in game development that gives a pass at times. it’s ok to try something new and make mistakes. just please learn from the feedback instead of doubling down.
mellow urchin
you dont think blizzard, one of the biggest gaming companies in the industry knows what iterative work is
it might not be executed perfectly on every level in the company, but thinking ur bringing something new to Blizzard by saying they should "iterate more on their stuff" is very weird
delicate osprey
they know but can just ignore it
same as i know the shit programs we use for work could be improved if they invested a bit
but they have been the same since 2015
nova nexus
why invest if you don’t need to
mellow urchin
i mean ye when you have 6000 employees or wahtever, making huge changes is very difficult
delicate osprey
yea use the pokemon way
what they dont know is usually when you invest more you get more returns
sometimes blizz just does not want to make money
mellow urchin
i am sure their money men are very aware of the benefits of doing certain things
nova nexus
a major retailer in the US was using 386 based PCs for their POS systems forcing stores to basically keep them running with duct tape and a prayer. They finally replaced their POS systems after investors questioned why the company was not reinvesting in itself.
mellow urchin
i dont have a lot of faith in that company personally, but knowing BASIC organisational structural things is not one of them
having out of touch devs that either dont play the game or the spec they work on
is a bigger one
mellow urchin
i hope they have finally realized that wow is not too big to fail and will either invest more or let it die. By the looks of the recent recruitment work they have done it seems like they are gonna fight for it
delicate osprey
yea it is 2022 we can live with more mtx if it means more investing in the game
you know like actually use the money you get
delicate osprey
for sure the art team does amazing but maybe the timeframes are just too oof for game devs
mellow urchin
but the answer isnt always to hire more, in this case it seems to be since they have been on a hiring spree
delicate osprey
it does take a lot of work to design and implement and as you said getting more people into it is not always faster
but if they stop offering shit pay maybe they get better people is what i mean
nova nexus
I always worry about the operating margins. it not that they aren’t in a bad spot, is the company willing to alter those margins which shows up on inventor sheets
mellow urchin
i really really hope they have some money man that understand that the core of their product is how the game plays, its a simple fucking thing. But the lack of focus on classes specifically has been awful the past couple of years and the lack of invention is actually yucky to witness. They reuse passives for like 3 expansions in a row, its time to invent or come up with something new that freshens up the gameplay, cus its incredibly stale atm
and ppl give up on the game cus its just the same old thing with a new name everytime, if its not artifacts its azerite or conduits
but the passives themselves are largely the same
nova nexus
every time I made my supply budget for the year, my next years supply budget was reduced. you know what went up in cost each year? cost of supplies. 
mellow urchin
like blizzard actually used the community to come up with legendary ideas and what did they ask for? old passives
...
like come on
oh wow we have 2 artifact traits as legendaries, cool beans
and a 4pc from wod nerfed by 50%
nova nexus
like blizzard actually used the community to come up with legendary ideas and wh...
would you rather have sub tier sets or replace them with stats that give similar dps increases. 
mellow urchin
i mean when we first heard there would be tier sets
nova nexus
though the sub stats would probably be haste, cause everyone loves haste.
mellow urchin
i was hoping for something about symbols
blizzard has such a warped misguided fucking idea about haste
"its the stat you feel the most"
fuck off
nova nexus
i don’t expect everyone to know everything about every class, but come on figure out some of what people actually enjoy (fun & performance) about the specs
mellow urchin
using that as a reason why the stats on things like m+ powers is typically haste is stupid, it does nothing for some specs/classes and is incredibly good for others. 0 regard for the specs that has 0 interaction with haste, or they simply dont understand that they have designed some specs to not benefit from haste
nova nexus
and design around that
mellow urchin
actually mindnumbing
big revelations, casters love haste
typically
melee dont feel it as much
since this is war of castercraft, lets make it haste
also how can you not feel crit
only fire mage doesnt benefit from it
having huge numbers all over your screen isnt fun apparently, but casting something 0.3 seconds faster is
nova nexus
at least from the impression of the EoN Nerf consortium in here yesterday it’s too much to ask for specs to have their talents actually developed into something interesting since they will get ignored for the meta talent.
wind furnace
you dont think blizzard, one of the biggest gaming companies in the industry kno...
they do def. know but they execute it badly
and its not apperent for the end user why this is the case if the same mistakes get made over and over again
nova nexus
I still think they don’t actually want our feedback on system design. assuming the post scari made about not having time to fix the FDK tier set was the cutoff point, there was a very small window we got to play with the set (working or not) and give input.
wind furnace
I am sure they want communication/input
nova nexus
then allow for more time for feedback
wind furnace
however doing communication/feedback is hard
nova nexus
ret paladins would like a word with ANYONE
wind furnace
time to organize feedback/etc is time you can spend on something else
esp. if you have time constrains and multiple classes/specs you work on
nova nexus
or they can hire someone to actually get and deliver feedback
it’s not like this is a small family run pet store where the owners live there and can only hire 2 teenagers part time to help when it’s busy times.
the eventual M$ABK has more than enough resources if they choose to use them
ABK had the resources.
when you can pay someone nearly $400 million to fuck off after buying the company, don’t tell me there’s no resources to put people in place to communicate
wind furnace
I think having a middle man also has some issues
e.g. it can happen that the entire conversation is one sided
what means the feedback feels like people screaming against a void
there is also a big diffrence on somehting being a one way or a two way communication
nova nexus
no, it means they would have to listen and try to understand why people are tilted
communication isn’t communication if it’s one sided.
wind furnace
I think you talk about very obvious problems
nova nexus
no conversation takes place if it’s just statements
wind furnace
but you don't rly need to do a lot of research to find them
nova nexus
obvious problems should be some of the easier ones to address. when you don’t know what the issue is, it takes more effort to figure that out
wind furnace
a lot of those topics are even within the wow forums discussed very actively discussed
nova nexus
my dog is shitting in the house after they eat… did you let them out after they ate? no? maybe you should let your dog out.
wind furnace
some bugs/issues are also very obviouse
e.g. ig you have 100ts of threads complaining about the same thing, its likely that there is some merit to look at it
nova nexus
vs my dog has an GI issue cause by colon issues that we can’t track down
wind furnace
btw. to be clear of this, i think they have talented people and are aware of some of the missed oppotuninties
nova nexus
e.g. ig you have 100ts of threads complaining about the same thing, its likely t...
and to solve this problem, we will make even more forums for community feedback.
nova nexus
btw. to be clear of this, i think they have talented people and are aware of som...
I don’t doubt they have very talented people. It comes across as being run like a 3 ring circus without a ringmaster.
mellow urchin
or they can hire someone to actually get and deliver feedback
community managers
isnt that the role of some of them
to read the forum
and spread the most upvoted posts to the devs
it seems like that should be their orle
nova nexus
for all I know they are volunteers
mellow urchin
no
they are not
its a full time job
ur thinking of the green names
those are just "super users"
different thing
mellow urchin
Lore is a community manager
nova nexus
or in streamer discords
mellow urchin
but he is a community manager for twitch
they have different ones
or according to himself, he handles streaming relations
for blizz
nova nexus
didn’t they fire the majority of them, overseas at least?
mellow urchin
they have community managers whose sole purpose is to moderate the forum and/or read/deliver feedback to the appropriate dev
but idk how well it is working
nova nexus
my first question is do they have appropriate devs?
mellow urchin
they fired a lot of CMs but you dont need 200 ppl to read forums
nova nexus
or is one dev doing 40 other things
nova nexus
here you be our web designer. oh can you also keep our IS stuff going?
mellow urchin
and as someone who is working in a similar role (communications/marketing), you definitely do share findings with in my case researchers
nova nexus
we can’t afford an IT person
mellow urchin
IS stuff?
nova nexus
and as someone who is working in a similar role (communications/marketing), you ...
and I would hope so.
mellow urchin
blizzard has a communications team believe it or not
mellow urchin
what are those
nova nexus
a position in a company that should not be attempted to be done as a web designer in addition to their normal design work to save payroll
pulsar axle
I'd always prefer a holistic design rather than read and nerf.
For this mage's nerf and revert, apparently the unbound of aoe cap change was not exactly planned for the whole shadowland, which backfired so much on the case of frost
mellow urchin
ye but perhaps they shouldnt limit ppl
its the 2-3rd expansion in a row where they simply make things worse
for classes
in how they play
for some weird gameplay reason that we cant really see
like the GCD change or the aoe cap
their goal with these changes just seem out of touch with how their game is played
delicate osprey
baseline abilities waiting room instead of borrowed power
mellow urchin
i mean we can understand why they have these systems right
it makes sense at least
from a "trying to sell expansion" point of view
but gcd change and aoe cap makes 0 sense for regular gamers
ur not going to get ppl hyped to play something that makes the gameplay worse
wind furnace
like the GCD change or the aoe cap
i think one of the blueposts explaine it well
and i don't think it was to much out of touch
pulsar axle
not like limit ppl; holistic design not waterfall design; it should be like candidate systems for things to happen and let ppl choose based on many things and conditions.
For recent expansions, i'd say i see contradiction as devs try to do something but they also not want to touch too much
wind furnace
the problem rly was they had one idea, but the execution failed because they had not enough time to solve everything
kind of like rogue was balanced well in 9.0 but they totally throw the ball seemingly everywhere else
pulsar axle
the problem rly was they had one idea, but the execution failed because they had...
This is however quite understandable
it is like trying to transform a complex system into parallel systems while too many things twisted together
wind furnace
i mean, there is def. a discussion topic about wether either change is good for the game in general
but a lot of the problems esp. with aoe caps are just rules being applied inconsistently
its understandable that there is a incentive to create niches
but one class can do 100k dps in a aoe pull vs. a other being at 15k is a big diffrence for something that is a common thing
pulsar axle
from what i see, the aoe cap is really something they try to do this expansion, but executed badly or something.
tight sapphire
there is no reasons why for example outlaw and marksman aren't softcapped beyond 5 targets like other classes
pulsar axle
The reason is simple; they dont want to repeat history
nova nexus
baseline abilities waiting room instead of borrowed power
ngl lost ark made me realized how a simple thing like skill leveling can be enjoyable
pulsar axle
ngl lost ark made me realized how a simple thing like skill leveling can be enjo...
I think this is somehow the most boring thing when playing wow year after year, expansion after expansion: no new stuff or abilities
nova nexus
the new stuff isn’t new
pulsar axle
and sometimes, they even remove new stuff, like DFA
wind furnace
uncapping BF would def. give outlaw a very strong power budget
so i don't think its "for no reason"
this does not mean that i agree with the target cap
nova nexus
I think this is somehow the most boring thing when playing wow year after year, ...
all the “new stuff”
pulsar axle
i think one thing for uncapping BF is that it is so universal, which makes it again back into one system.
although i cannot really say this, but Sin is now being somehow diverting into two paths with borrowed powers; like two candidate systems.
pulsar axle
all the “new stuff”
Im not sure about 5.x and 6.x, but sub looks even quite the same like what happened after the rework in 4.x
wind furnace
all the “new stuff”
he is not wrong
nova nexus
i know
wind furnace
but i am unsure if there is a easy way to fix talents without reworking them again^^
nova nexus
the entire talent system needs a rework tbh if they are doing this seasonal tier expansions
mellow urchin
they do it for other classes
nova nexus
gloomblade is still bad, even buffed
mellow urchin
only outlaw has seen talent buffs in recent memory with the dreadblades shit
pulsar axle
tbh, it should be renamed for like training system rather than the name of talent...
nova nexus
it’s still bad
mellow urchin
no
when its equal in strength
to wm
its not bad
its equal
and it has practically 0 rng
and you cant be dodged/parried
it clearly has use cases
pulsar axle
why you put a condition as they're equal and then still blame it as bad...
nova nexus
it’s an unimaginative skill that should have just replaced backstab and replaced with a better designed talent.
mellow urchin
i would really want an alternative to WM, to reduce the sheer amount of rng in this spec
quartz idol
he is not wrong
I don't know every pull I start with completely different talent and then change them 😄
even a different legendary 😄
pulsar axle
i would really want an alternative to WM, to reduce the sheer amount of rng in t...
totally agreed
mellow urchin
sub mastery should buff all shadow dmg or something, would give gloomblade a reason to exist
wind furnace
gloomblade is just to weak to compete, but buffing it to be good would mean pv would be broken
pulsar axle
to me, WM is somehow even a worse choice but just bc it is high on number and i have to choose it.
nova nexus
but yes the easy fix would be buffing undertuned stuff
wind furnace
i did like the legion t15 tree a lot more
pulsar axle
for a big if about rework, i'd like to see a more focused desgin around FW for sub, and make mastery on that as well.
wind furnace
master of subtlety as a more single target oriented choice
weapon master as a better choice in aoe/multi target
gloomblade as a pvp choice
but wm was changed to be a pure st talent
and having 3 talents for pure st means you just pick the best
mellow urchin
the last row for sub is a yoke
wind furnace
i think it worked well in bfa
as all 3 talents had clear niches
mos for st
secret for aoe
tornado for aoe into st
shut valve
What if sectech applied full duration fw to all targets hit 🤔
pulsar axle
for that path, my thinking would be mastery increase shadow dmg on FW
mellow urchin
its not like we're starving for FW
shut valve
It does drop in aoe from time to time
mellow urchin
and ye why do we have a damaging finisher that doesnt have the shadow dmg component
add 40% of the main value as shadow and that talent might be good
south osprey
Blizz simply forgot that sectec is not an eviscerate and then didn't care because maybe 10.0 removes it anway
10.0 will have only 2 talents per row
nova nexus
maybe no talents.
nova nexus
10.0 all talents are removed. you have your base spec and a dragon crystal that allows you to upgrade 6 different power rings by farming dragon soul non stop.
nova nexus
Be pretty cool if they implemented banshee blight into eviscerate
people will mald because a heroic offhand will still be mandatory to increase the proc rate of the new eviscerate.
clear zephyr
That would be on par wouldn’t it 🤣
sharp pebble
is there much of a difference between heroic vs mythic offhand, since it's mostly for the effect
wind furnace
there is some difference in output, but not a significant one
kfr should be lfr, just a typo
feral schooner
@wind furnace what are the sims with a 278 dagger??
feral schooner
Ty
pure shoal
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qeMgBWFA5FN2X9BDWgfh39/simc>
Do you, have equivalent sims for sin spec?
Considering dodging dagger drop till the end of progress but I guess sin benefit faster from new daggers
wind furnace
i don't but you can just simply use the same copy statements
keen ravine
I assume the 2x sylv daggers are mythic lvl
nova nexus
yes
wind furnace
oh, i think i forgot to change the itemlevel of the 2 ones in the last sim
no wait, thats fine they should be mythic
keen ravine
I'd just like to say yall do amazing work theory crafting and simming this stuff to bring us the numbers we need
wind furnace
the daggers just don't go that well for assassination
278 is similar, just with 2x sylvanas about on par with lfr offhand
i also love how i still forgot to correct the labeling from kfr to lfr
but to get to the point, sylvans dagger just isn't that strong on assassination
outlaw/sub just benefit a lot more from them
outlaw does look similar to subtlety, expected tho:
but all of that is kind of known, both outlaw and subtlety just utilize the effect from the dagger way better
tired ether
Just crazy that an EoN is worth ~20 ilvls for sub in the main hand for mythic atleast. Heroic and Norm would be similar surely?
delicate osprey
tier set gives a lot more cps
wind furnace
the tier set has surprisingly low impact hacka
delicate osprey
and we lost some general borrowed power that didnt interact with dagger like shadow set or blood set
delicate osprey
i think it is a combo of both of those ones
wind furnace
i did sim relative value of the dagger with/without and it was about on par
delicate osprey
having more of our dmg overall interact with the dagger makes it better
i mean losing the dom sockets/set
clear zephyr
I’m sure increased versatility from ilvl will also benefit sylvanas dagger
Later in tier
delicate osprey
apart from frost they were in kind of a vacuum
yea crit/vers help too and in a lesser way haste
wind furnace
the reason why sylvans can be this powerful is the slot tho
offhand just has nothing special to it, its a very weak slot
clear zephyr
Wonder why they would make offhand so insignificant
Easier to balance or is there some interaction
wind furnace
the logical explenation for me was 1h weapons
classes with 1h would only require 1 drop to perform
and classes with 2 weapon slot would lack behind noticeable up to the point they have both weapons
delicate osprey
miss rate % and some mechanics not working off off hand dont help either
clear zephyr
That makes sense
wind furnace
offhand does get a penalty on its damage
that one is not applied to effects, what makes any effect weapon a lot more appealing
but also powerful in this case
it creates a scenario where a non impactful slot suddenly contributes a lot to your output
just for reference a jump in 13 itemlevel in offhand is worth about .3% dps
(what is the jump from one to another difficultly in raid)
rapid ledge
it creates a scenario where a non impactful slot suddenly contributes a lot to y...
i think its pretty cool if they would bring back this but they should make it more accessible. having it drop from the last boss which is a 14min fight is such a pain
wind furnace
aquisition is def. the issue here
neat dagger
imho its bad game design to keep an item from last tier 😄 it was the same with the azshara trinket in bfa.
and i dont think, cause of the trinket, that they going tochange it
wind furnace
25 second pull timers
i member
blizz did and didn't adress stuff like this
they did nerf cof for example in nighthold (legion), but they did not nerf some carry over items in bfa
wind furnace
the offhand issue could be just adressed by giving effects a similar penalty in offhand
it would still allow daggers like sylvanas to stay relevant, but wouldn't create this big power budget gap
neat dagger
yeah
im still a bit confused about the not given release date yesterday, warcraft instagram had a weird post and ybarra had also a trolling twitter.
my guess is that something went completly wrong with the "release candidate" and they just skipped the deployment
rapid ledge
im still a bit confused about the not given release date yesterday, warcraft ins...
i think that lost ark is driving too much attention for their taste
wind furnace
it could be that they don't release on the 22nd
rly hard to tell
for what its worth, its unlikely that won't release it soon (within the next month)
neat dagger
but the pvp event is already announced or im wrong?
wind furnace
i did see max explenation too
marsh drum
i did see max explenation too
what was it?
wind furnace
what was it?
he basically declared the 22nd as the release date due to how events are planed
what is fair
problem is, we have no inside on how development goes and how far they are
having a certain specific date as a "we aim to release there", can easy go wrong
and then there can be a delay of a week or two
rapid ledge
its a balancing act. they want a lot of visibility for it. and they want the game to be in a stable state
wind furnace
there is a reason there is no release date in advanced ^^
and esp. in sl it is not uncommon to have very long content cycles
a new content comes up every ~7-8 months in sl, compared to the ~3-4 in bfa/legion
but i still think of the 22nd as a reasonable estimate
rapid ledge
but i still think of the 22nd as a reasonable estimate
either that or the 1st
wind furnace
it just seems weird that we haven't heared anything by now, as correct me if i remember that wrong, it is usually the case to get at least a notice 2 weeks earlier
marsh drum
but i still think of the 22nd as a reasonable estimate - they have to announce arena season ending 2 weeks in advance
so 99% 1st
wind furnace
1st seems like the next best choice if it isn't the 22nd
neat dagger
it just seems weird that we haven't heared anything by now, as correct me if i r...
more or less yes
west basalt
9.1 and 9.1.5 were announced 10 day before release
neat dagger
9.1 and 9.1.5 were announced 10 day before release
Would be tomorrow then ?
west basalt
Today or tomorrow yes
neat dagger
Saturday ofc not
wind furnace
9.1 and 9.1.5 were announced 10 day before release
so 22nd is still on the menu 🙂
west basalt
marsh drum
@west basalt the prophet
west basalt
I prayed enough. God heard me
wind furnace
22nd confirmed
civic terrace
Lets go
civic terrace
Breaking out of the sanctum 
nova nexus
sub looks like you’re playing outlaw
wind furnace
Did we have a tier sim overview yet?
wdym?
nova nexus
assa looks more like sub
wind furnace
i mean if nothing changes, you probably just play sub
nova nexus
Did we have a tier sim overview yet?
nope and the tier sims are only as good as the work other specs put into it, which isn’t typically rogue levels
civic terrace
nope and the tier sims are only as good as the work other specs put into it, whi...
Ye ofc you always take them with a good grain of salt
wind furnace
no stacked chart
civic terrace
unluck
wind furnace
best you can go from is possibly the 9.2 spreadsheet for kindred
linked in #subtlety-faq
barren forge
Release for 22nd. A little torn. Happy it’s soon but a lot of bugs still to workout
civic terrace
KY MM not looking too hot in there
barren forge
Not necessarily for rogue but in general
wind furnace
Release for 22nd. A little torn. Happy it’s soon but a lot of bugs still to wor...
rogue bugs are mostly fixed
wind furnace
one bug that is a bit concerning is the target dummy bug
barren forge
Oh yeah, was more talking WW, SV, ret
wind furnace
i should open a issue for that one
barren forge
That I know of
civic terrace
That was directed at shivarii since he mentioned a ton of bugs 😅
barren forge
Oh dam so big
My bad
Oh lol last I knew, WW 4 set didn’t work, something was wrong with ret, unless they are just crying like pallys do, SV fix didn’t work correctly (unless there’s been another change).
Don’t quote me on this plz. Most is knowledge from streams or browsing disc channels
civic terrace
So mostly class related issues. Yeah I have to be honest that stuff generally doesnt bother me Im mostly concerned with the game itself not working
Like bosses, campaign, etc
barren forge
Oh yeah class/tier stuff.
nova nexus
don’t worry. NA beta testing will be in full swing on the 22nd
barren forge
To busy watchjng people push for r1 io to watch content related stuff
mellow urchin
Oh lol last I knew, WW 4 set didn’t work, something was wrong with ret, unless t...
ret paladins are just salty
about their tier set
civic terrace
don’t worry. NA beta testing will be in full swing on the 22nd
Always
barren forge
An working a depressing job where they think they own me and bitch about me putting in for time off over a month in advance
barren forge
Always <:KEKW:919970347422453801>
🤣
nova nexus
they’ve had to been sitting on this date for awhile. same day the Sylvanas novel releases.
which is shit since they could have just come out and said it and let people plan for it
barren forge
I figured it would drop second week of March. Aka week before legion time walking
buoyant gyro
Just wait until the last second omega hotfixes drop in 3 weeks
Right before raid opens up
And change everything 😄
civic terrace
Ye they just dont wanna hold themselves to a deadline in case shit gets bad I guess
buoyant gyro
The release schedule gives them a fair amount of time before Mythic opens up
civic terrace
Tbh I would like they would just give themselves ample time, preferably slightly too much, if that means we know a month ahead of time
At least then I could plan my IRL around it
12 days is too short
civic terrace
Think we get 1 week of no raids at all, then a week of NHC -3 last bosses and then everything right?
clear zephyr
Yes
nova nexus
2/22, 3/1 & 3/8. NA beta test days
civic terrace
turbid scaffold
Can we say that it is less likely that any nerf will happen until 22.2?
humble frost
If I understood sims correctly, sylv daggers will be bis until you get a 285 weapon which would go in your mainhand, right?
unkempt peak
yes
civic terrace
But only for ST, soon as you start funneling eons are better period, iirc?
wind furnace
ye, its very reasonable to assume that you will use a 278 mh weapon but i can do a quick sim
mellow urchin
But only for ST, soon as you start funneling eons are better period, iirc?
idk what the diff is
humble frost
yeah 278 weapon was neutral
civic terrace
Well neutral is not better 🙃
humble frost
Well if you have one mythic dagger its okay
civic terrace
Fair
humble frost
I was wondering if i had to farm the other one
civic terrace
Its a little bold to assume youll have a heroic dagger on week 2 if you don't do splits tbh
