burst seems good but overal dps looks bad
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
nova nexus
those graphs being sooo similar is depressing
mellow urchin
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2D59iXLc4pUMvwoxgM8rvw
in the same sim, is kyrian 13300?
is nf really 1k dps behind
thin arrow
Realy dont belive developers will let Rogue being a pure dps class being uncompetitive or dependent on x item from old content. Just doesnt make sense, they cant possible overlook this right ?
nova nexus
Realy dont belive developers will let Rogue being a pure dps class being uncompe...
there’s nothing to overlook. people are just paranoid about shit and can’t let it go that a lot of sub is balanced around that dagger in pve.
you don’t need it. it’s great to have it. move along.
the spec was “uncompetitive” for nearly all of BfA.
shut valve
Realy dont belive developers will let Rogue being a pure dps class being uncompe...
Sir, have you seen the absolutely sorry state of rogues in 9.0?
delicate osprey
but hey look at these sims rogue are so good right
nova nexus
hot takes our sims are good because they’re relatively complete
delicate osprey
wait why is no one running rogues !!??¿¿
nova nexus
others not nearly as complete. BUFF US
delicate osprey
this expansion has been quite funny
nova nexus
warriors still don’t have any updated sims after fury got “adjusted”
something something no point
delicate osprey
things can still change guys dont worry
nova nexus
imagine if they all weren’t running 252 sims
delicate osprey
i won't ever forget the shadowpriest debacle in the first raid
nova nexus
@wind furnace we better be last with BiS gear setup for simc. like 8 weeks after mythic launches late
“the hamsters in my laptop got hungry. have to feed them before I can get all the sims ran.”
we can be accurate and fashionably late with the information in 9.2. 
wind furnace
<@194804407706189824> we better be last with BiS gear setup for simc. like 8 wee...
I am not rly a fan of hiding information
nova nexus
keep reading
wind furnace
rogue was and for the most parts is still transparent and public with what we know
nova nexus
"fashionably late"
wind furnace
ahh
wind furnace
i mean just look at 9.1
the sims did show us at the top
and we remained on this position
wind furnace
people linking sim results to tuning usually forget that the devs usually tent to not look at sims but rather use statistics
wind furnace
i am unsure about the details about it
nova nexus
all good. it's in the past.
wind furnace
but obedience without the nerf def. would have pushed rogue in the "needs nerf" catrgory even more
even if it is from a gameplay perspective bad, the fact that sylvanas dagger was not easy to come by did also allow us to stay in a very strong position tuning wise
you can see it if you look at e.g. guardian mythic
shut valve
It's actually hilarious to me that hunters got a legendary bow that doesn't even make them very competitive
Meanwhile we got insane value daggers that aren't even legendary
And can drop from vault
nova nexus
hunters still complaining about it not dropping when it will be replaced with a heroic bow
orange item = orange parses
wind furnace
it rly is diffrent
also the perspective, people who play rogue are split in opinion too on the dagger and if its good/bad
winged fiber
buff dagger
wind furnace
thats probably the only thing that is guaranteed to not happen
either they just keep it like it is or nerf it
nova nexus
maybe we should start asking for dagger buffs
wind furnace
is nf really 1k dps behind
its the 9.1.5 best soulbind, but diffrent is smaller, around 800 dps what is still quite noticable
nova nexus
triple potency DW not better now?
wind furnace
it is
delicate osprey
if we ever play nf is for korayn value tho
wind furnace
but its possible that other options become stronger, means i will need to do some investigations
delicate osprey
it does play quite good into jailer trinket
that gives a huge stat boost every 2 mins more or less
might need to revisit some syncs that one shows promise meanwhile i go to take a mini nap but i leave you with the proc that requires 4 activations before, i think you can use one pre combat
wind furnace
trinkets def. will be interessting
livid ferry
Do you think if rogues were on par with others in the ST department that they would be played?
mellow urchin
not even played when ahead by 10%
wind furnace
rogue only brings some things to the table
and is therefore only "better" than alternatives if it outdoes others in it
e.g. cloak and feint did end up as extremely strong defensive to cheese mechanics. But sadly are rarely relevant in modern raid design
pure st output, funnel damage and the poison is what we atm bring
livid ferry
So ye its either were “tuned strong” or a dead class
mellow urchin
pure st output, funnel damage and the poison is what we atm bring
"the poison"
ah yes when i think about rogue i think about mindnumbing
not a single person cares about it
livid ferry
Its also only useful on bosses that auto a lot lol
wind furnace
it can be relevant if you can't bring a wl
wind furnace
i don't say its a strong argument, but its one positive point for rogue
mellow urchin
it can be relevant if you can't bring a wl
if you cant bring a wl ur not a raiding guild
wind furnace
probably true
i just try to be inclusive with what we offer in terms of benefits
even if most of what we bring is rly just good if tuning is in our favour
livid ferry
What we offer is a tanky class that deals st
So if we ever aren’t the best single target you don’t bring a rogue thats the bottom line
In current state of the game rogue should be on top on bosses like guardian every single raid
wind furnace
one strong argument for rogue is that its a pure dps class, and there is no other pure dps that is not brought to raid
so there should be something that makes rogue worth bringing
hunter can fall into the same issue
wind furnace
I don't think any class is "shit"
winged fiber
dk is
wind furnace
wow just seemingly has not found a ideal balancing strategy to allow dynamic in classes and have everyone feel like their class choice isn't inherently deciding how valuable they are
livid ferry
Ye until they find a good balancing strategy there will be shit classes
wind furnace
i do say class choice and not spec choice, as i think its unavoidable to have differences cross specs of a class
livid ferry
Dk this raid was a pretty shit class
wind furnace
they had a lot of good approaches, but i sadly need to say everything is always half done
wind furnace
raid buffs are a useful tool to create diversity, but it developed into having "required" slots
winged fiber
dk actually has meaningful utility though
wind furnace
it is not good feedback for the player too
winged fiber
grips + abom can be very useful
wind furnace
when DH is dog in output, it does not feel very rewarding to be on the team just because you bring one of the strongest raid buffs
nova nexus
frost actually had a bug the entire tier. that resulted in a 5% dps loss
livid ferry
Ty for coming to my tedtalk
wind furnace
balancing around niches is also very hard because you don't have enough niches
and raid design has certain "niches" always
nova nexus
don’t know if that would have been enough to make it more useful or desired
wind furnace
execute is one of the most powerful things, burst another one
nova nexus
execute ain’t that powerful these days on woyer
wind furnace
execute is only bad if you specificalyl design around it being bad by creating bossfights that end above execute range
nova nexus
or they tune the spell to shit
wind furnace
the most important things with current raid design are:
- burst st
- burst aoe
- spread cleave
and due to damage checks being less relevant we also have:
- raid buffs
- (raid) utility cooldowns
- survivability
nova nexus
everything is burst timings. looks at sub and rogues in general and laughs
wind furnace
execute is not strong in sl because damage checks are rarely a thing
livid ferry
Spread cleave
wind furnace
i do say spread cleave because its not guaranteed to be able to cleave always for melee
so it rly is a niche that highly depends on encounter design
spread cleave depends too but i don't remember a encounter with more than 1 target that had something that prevented ranged players from doing it in sl
last encounter that had it was in nyalotha that had the mechanic that you need to stand in melee to see the target
but mechanics like this are exceptions rather than the norm
livid ferry
Rogue st need be big is only thing that matter
Gg
If rogue no big st class useless
No bring
Very bad!
winged fiber
lmao
pure shoal
tell them
wind furnace
might be interessting to see how finality/akaari compare in prio damage with the optimizations
finality still wins out
(new is just the apl change, i had it separated to see the difference to baseline)
valuable information for m+, this is with PE instead of PV
The interesting thing from PV vs. PE is that both seem similar in prio damage, so you can in theory think about what is needed for the dungeon
fair vortex
Almost seems like pv for tyran and pe for fort weeks, unless I’m misinterpreting the sims
forest hamlet
Does the set proc wm_
robust lotus
yes
unkempt peak
does weapon master proc the set?
wind furnace
ngl, the amount of trash in the new raid makes shroud a raid cooldown 😛
nova nexus
ngl, the amount of trash in the new raid makes shroud a raid cooldown 😛
shroud, skip trash, remove rogue from raid, drop lock portal, summon rallying cry
mint sequoia
so you're saying that rogues are the ideal advertiser class now
since they need to be in the raid group
at least once
gleaming elbow
we have alot of utilities in keys so we dont need anything in raid u know 
signal nacelle
hey when you play finality with deeper during ST, do you evis at 4+ on both regular evis and empowered evis?
I've been doing 4+ for regular eivs and ideally 5-6 with extra dmg. Can someone confirm this?
worn prawn
i dont think there is any reason to ever not finish at 5+
mint sequoia
in flag with shadowblades
worn prawn
pretty sure thats with obedience, havent seen numbers on it with finality
signal nacelle
I wonder if it's worth to finish lower on non-emp or higher with emp during dance with and without flag
and since we will prog being like that, the exact numbers from day 1 of the patch, 2p, 4p, double leggo. Would be nice to know the path in advance.
nova nexus
the answer is you’re not playing finality in ST
not with 1 L
it’s currently the 4th best lego for venthyr and gets close or even in aoe/m+
elfin cedar
To make sure I'm reading everything correctly, it looks like as it stands with 4pc set that Kyrian is roughly 400-500 single tar dps ahead of Venthyr?
nova nexus
12540 vs 12107 = 433
elfin cedar
So yes, thanks
feral schooner
I see no reason not to play during progression kyrian. The playsyle imo is way more forgiving then venthyr
shut valve
That's very debatable
signal nacelle
It depends what role you have to do for each raid boss really, if you just ST boss all day or have to aoe than perhaps finality venthyr will be the play. The new fights on mythic in 9.2 will be complete different dps profiles from current raid, so I really don't think you can say that we will only play Kyrian Akaari.
shut valve
Kyrian and venthyr both have strengths and weaknesses
Kyrian loses more from downtime, unless the downtime is during flag
Venthyr is more bursty
And also plays way better on bosses with adds
feral schooner
That's very debatable
Kyrian is more forgivable. Screw up one flag cd you fall behind during the whole fight. So for progression imo it is better. But yes on add fights like the first Boss flag pulls ahead although in mythic the excute phase benefits so much more kyrian with EoN.
nova nexus
@wind furnace what’s causing the roughly 5% drop in rupture uptime in kyrian sims from live to ptr sims.
97% on live sims. 92% on the 2L best setup
wind furnace
giveme 30 mins to a hour, but i come back to you
nova nexus
hahah - it’s not critical, was just curious and didn’t know if it was something obvious or an unintentional side effect of a new condition.
wind furnace
it is intentional and related to the higher dance uptime
basically, you will have no rupture refreshes in dance due to a apl change
nova nexus
what was the threshold for firing off a rupture between dance or going more aggressive with the next dance?
or a more simple approach: what’s the new rule for applying rupture with the changes?
nova nexus
yes ST. if a dance charge is ready are you applying rupture prior to it? trying to sort out the aggressive dance use.
wind furnace
you will still have the early refresh rules
but they won't cover all dance casts
it might be worth to do some more testing on venthyr on it, but the changes did not introduce any dps losses
pure shoal
Oh, when playing kyrian I used to refresh rupture during naked dances, with the amount of dances I figured it was fine dps wise, is that a noticeable loss?
I would do it very often when I'm dancing, and symbol is coming off cd very soon especially
Not refreshing rupture here would be a drop from the dot for a good 10-15sec
(naked dance then symbol dance)
@wind furnace
I guess the correct play would have been to refresh rupture with a ~20sec remaining time when I was not dancing yet?
Feels off
pure shoal
Yeah my point is, what's the apl doing when about to cap charges let's say 8sec before symbol comes off cd and rupture remaining time is 18sec
lunar fractal
Your math doesn't really check out but I suspect that it would just refresh after symbols is done as first gcd seeing the uptime was lower
nova nexus
my initial gut reaction was this is the lol warrior not casting rend apl. but if it’s intentional I’m kinda intrigued as to why it shifted that considerably or if it’s just a byproduct of standing still with perfect play
5% uptime loss to me is pretty large, maybe it doesn’t mean anything at this point with lol rng
mellow urchin
its prob more so that buffing evis in dance by 15% is worth more than the 2-3 seconds of rupture you'd lose per dance
mellow urchin
Yeah my point is, what's the apl doing when about to cap charges let's say 8sec ...
this should only happen with the prepull shit right
the apl is "dancing aggressively"
from now on
with tier set
which means you just fuckn send dance on cd
so capping out on dance doesnt make sense
nova nexus
I have to get on the pc to look at the sample table to see where the drops happened. I’m indifferent either way with maintaining or not, but just comes across as a red flag compared to what we’ve been used to with dots
wind furnace
Oh, when playing kyrian I used to refresh rupture during naked dances, with the ...
the diffrence is minimal, but esp. kyrian does seem to benefit a bit more from not using rupture during dance
as mentioned, i potentially will look into venthyr again but it seems dps neutral
also towards the "aggressive" dance, it still means to consider combo point value and PV stacks
nova nexus
for lack of a better word, it's weird seeing it not applied until 20 seconds into the sample sequence
after that it seems to fall into the 20-30 second recast
mental estuary
We probably don't get enough CP, but stupid question... if we currently get more DPS from using dance on CD, is it possible that Enveloping Shadows isn't top DPS talent?
shut valve
Es gives us more dances
mental estuary
Yes, obviously.
wind furnace
we are not saturated to the point you assume
mental estuary
But if we get enough CPs, theoretically one of the other two would be more damage.
Not saying we anywhere close to that point, no idea where that point even is, frankly.
Just figured I'd ask the question.
wind furnace
you won't trust me unless you see sims i guess, so here we go:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ftFhJcXx957uaMCtWb82XZ
mental estuary
I trust you 100% fuu. ♡ Just was trying to explain my reasoning to Yoppa.
shut valve
But if we get enough CPs, theoretically one of the other two would be more damag...
The reason we get so many cps is due to high dance uptime from es
Strikes are way more cp than stab
I could see ds in m+ fort maybe
A HUGE maybe
wind furnace
don't think that dark is any good outside of mass aoe maybe
nova nexus
it’s a cycle that keeps self fulfilling. more dance more cps, more dances, more cps.
wind furnace
well lets find out for dungeon slice
mental estuary
it’s a cycle that keeps self fulfilling. more dance more cps, more dances, more ...
Yes, I understand.
Just noting that at a certain rate of CP gain ES gives you more dances than you can spend, which would make it worse than the other two.
Clearly we not even close to there. But you never know unless you ask / try, ya know?
nova nexus
you’re not capped on dance charges
nova nexus
me of all people would love to see ES die in a fiery grave
clear zephyr
Gasp
nova nexus
oh fuck slice
mental estuary
:O
What have I done? Now I have to change talents maybe. -_-
nova nexus
show me that in ST
mental estuary
He did it in ST already.
wind furnace
giveme a sec to run with double legendary
we can after that go to single target
single target, keep in mind its with tornado:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vNZx2UW7TzuitsraisEvb7
clear zephyr
Add cleave?
wind furnace
wind furnace
Add cleave?
add cleave is basically high target aoe, so i assume dark will be ahead
mental estuary
you’re not capped on dance charges
Also worth noting, that likely the point where Dark overtakes ES is slightly less than capped Dances.
But frankly I like ES gameplay.
nova nexus
Also worth noting, that likely the point where Dark overtakes ES is slightly le...
it’s ok you like stupid shit. 
mental estuary
Ah, lol that makes more sense. I was confused.
delicate osprey
it is kind of funny we go back to bfa things if you have surplus dance cdr getting a stronger one faster is very worth
wind furnace
dark shadows still came out ahead tho
livid ferry
Poggerssss
delicate osprey
basically in terms of vacuum a dark dance is worth two es dances in 8 secs
everything else is afterwards but that point stands
wind furnace
not ahead of ns es, but ahead of sf + es
shut valve
Yes, I understand.
Just noting that at a certain rate of CP gain ES gives you ...
Even if every strike fully filled your cps, you wouldn't overcap dance charges by strike-evising full time
Ns ds gamers rise up
Could be great for aoe burst with flag + tornado
wind furnace
i did just explain that labling was incorrect
shut valve
Well
wind furnace
so it was es + ns on top not ns + dark
wind furnace
yes
nova nexus
wind furnace
dark is actually good tho
what is surprising
its not on ns + es level but still not terrible
mental estuary
Oh, yeah, me too. Thought just last was labeled wrong.
But I'm happy with that. Less talent switching good for lazy gamers like me. Pog.
I wonder if you get PI simped, if ns + dark maybe overtake es. 😆
Cause mass confusion in logs.
mental estuary
I agree, also not the biggest fan of just sending dance on CD, but alas, if it's a gain is a gain.
Not the gameplay / flow that's made me like Sub historically.
nova nexus
just reroll dh. you get better animations and raid utility.
mental estuary
Yeah but then I wouldn't spend all my time in-between pulls dancing for pennies.... er opening lockboxes.
livid ferry
Don’t think ppl understand how bad that talent is in ST
wind furnace
you mean ns or dark?
livid ferry
Dark
wind furnace
i think the biggest issue with dark is gameplay dynamic
livid ferry
It literally breaks the core gameplay of the spec its fucking awful
wind furnace
you can't rotate your dance charges efficiently because you only have 1 that you basically use on cooldown
dim mural
I mean if there was more burst to actually fit in it to make the extra 15% amp worth then maybe. but yeah I think dark is just a bait talent because people see the 30% and forget dance already does 15
wind furnace
i mean, kyrian does too to a degree in 9.2 with the tier set 2p
dim mural
I used to be one of the ones that got baited by dark shadow saying 30% so I should know xD
nova nexus
2 charges. one burst talent. one cdr. not that difficult blizz
livid ferry
You can’t line sod with dance while playing ds
If you do its a dps loss
Literally breaking the spec lmao
Either delete the talent or rework the spec again
Buffing it to 90% would be dumb and also unfun to play
nova nexus
Literally breaking the spec lmao
we’re already broken. 
mental estuary
Yeah, DK, Kyrian is using dance on CD next patch.
nova nexus
now we’re going down the rabbit hole of spam everything, fuck rupture, stab during dance and pray to rngjesus
livid ferry
At least most of the time Sod probably lands in there somewhere
mental estuary
Which is why I ask about Dark in first place, because if we doing that anyway, main downside to using Dark gone. But looks like we not quite at the CP gain needed for that to be a thing in ST. Which... good.
livid ferry
Nah you’d lose a bunch of dance uptime
nova nexus
my assumption is any fight that would have enough downtime to make dark the better option is a fight you’re not taking melee to in general.
livid ferry
That talent is just legit always going to be bad unless it gets overbuffed or the spec gets a rework again
nova nexus
10.0 we back to 7.0 spec (again) 
mental estuary
Where did the PV stack line of things end up? Presumably certain number of stacks where BS > Strike?
nova nexus
set the delorean for jan 10, 2017
wind furnace
you finish on 5+ stacks during the first 2/3 of dance if shadowblades is up
also if that's not obvious you won't dance before using your stacks
livid ferry
I thought it was during the last
wind furnace
no
you don't want to use backstab during the last seconds, it makes sense because you won't overflow to much and still can fit in shadow strikes
livid ferry
Ic
mental estuary
So no BSing during dance then? Just make sure you BS before dancing after you cap?
That's not too bad. Was worried half the time we'd be BSing during dance.
wind furnace
the thing you miss is that akaari generates pv stacks
mental estuary
Yes, and Tier set, right?
nova nexus
So no BSing during dance then? Just make sure you BS before dancing after you ca...
oh sweet child you will be
wind furnace
yes
but the tier set impact is lower given that its only 1 stack
akaaris basically doubles your stack generation
mossy carbon
Is there a sim available for the comparison between bs'ing in dance vs not?
wind furnace
(not exactly but good enough to assume that)
there certainly is somewhere hidden in this channel when i promoted the change, but i can quickly just dissable it for you to give you a idea
mossy carbon
Nah don't want to waste your time, I'll try and find it
slender iris
also if that's not obvious you won't dance before using your stacks
Since we're dumping if we have stacks before dance would it make sense to SoD -> BS -> Dance
mossy carbon
Yeah that's already a gain I believe
mental estuary
Is there a nifty WA for PV stacks?
wind furnace
it rly isn't that much effort to make one ^^
just put in the buff name and make it glow for 5+ stacks or so
mental estuary
Good point. 👍
livid ferry
How hard would you guys rate 9.2 subtlety to play /10
robust lotus
same as it is now/10
livid ferry
Fair enough
livid ferry
damn
gusty thunder
How hard would you guys rate 9.2 subtlety to play /10
Kyrian simming higher atm, which is probably a little easier than Venthyr and flag planning.
nova nexus
oh my bad you said hard not how shit it is
just spam stuff and scream yahtzee. you’re good
wind furnace
How hard would you guys rate 9.2 subtlety to play /10
the spec becomes bette with practice but the only hard part is learning/understanding the core gameplay
also how "hard" it is depends on your expectations
you can go with subtlety in a aoe heavy dungeon and perform decently well without a lot of practice
livid ferry
you can go with subtlety in a aoe heavy dungeon and perform decently well withou...
This is exactly what happened to me haha
but then lower target counts I get confused
I did DoS and I was like huh that was easy
then plague and I was just ???
wind furnace
if you go with the spec in a dungeon with lower pull sizes you suddenly perform terrible, just because there is more dependency on knowlage
wind furnace
also peforming well in overall is diffrent to adopting to your group/key
livid ferry
yeah I tried to funnel when I could
like those packs on necrotic that all die when you kill the main dude
wind furnace
the spec is good in m+ because of funnel esp. in higher keys, always spamming bp will lead to good numbers but also mean you don't utialize your complete toolset
livid ferry
I’ve done enough snooping in here to learn that much : )
wind furnace
low target cleave you basically apply rupture to everything that needs damage and survives for its duration
you can use strike to apply fw to up to 3 targets too
(you would not rupture on 4 unless you need prio damage on certain targets)
wind furnace
oh ye, i guess that depends a lot on practice and the group ^^
mental estuary
I do think with change to hard sending dance on CD makes spec a lot easier. A lot harder to hard fuck yourself by mismanaged CDs because that factor doesn't exist anymore.
shut valve
I'd say it's the opposite
Hard sending dances isn't literally hard sending them
It's "send whenever you know you'll 100% have a dance for next symbols"
And when ppl get used to sending too many, they might forget to have one for symbols
As opposed to right now when you get used to thinking about it more
wind furnace
I think its hard to miss some details about 9.2
nova nexus
it’s going to be the opposite. people gonna get frustrated with random shb, losing cps and casting strike when all of the sudden they should have finished again.
clear zephyr
Wonder if there is a perfect on average time to send the dance. Like always ya send 1 charge with 20 seconds remaining or something
wind furnace
you have a lot of added complexity in 9.2 due to:
- kyrian being so dominant and anima charged combo points are harder to hit (what makes a sht tracker even more valuable)
- PV changes gameplay in a significant way, you now need to keep track of your PV stacks even during dance while you could before that just use one backstab between dances
- Dance on cd still has other impact factors like energy levels, combo points and PV stacks
nova nexus
while dance maybe more spam, which is pretty amazing since it already was spammy, the extra random procs are going to make awareness more key imo
wind furnace
higher dance uptime also means you need to be on the boss a lot more
what needs to be planed around encounter design
for m+ i still have the opinion that NS could end up as a dominant choice, and NS in m+ is rly not easy to play
coarse quiver
it requires a more patient hand as well as a more spaz hand, which is just counter intuitive lmao
i think i need to REDUCE my input tolerance or whatever you call it in order to overwrite an incorrect input right?
nova nexus
you can /cqs to clear it
buoyant gyro
you have a lot of added complexity in 9.2 due to:
- kyrian being so dominant and...
I mentioned this the other day but I don't actually think 9.2 really makes animacharge harder to hit
wind furnace
the rotation becomes less strategic in 9.2 because of procs, but its not nessecery harder just very diffrent to what we are used to
I think the 4p proc barely matetrs, the 2p however makes it a bit less intuitive
nova nexus
I mentioned this the other day but I don't actually think 9.2 really makes anima...
on a dummy, 2 and 3 felt like a bigger struggle
coarse quiver
im still missing a decent number of anima points even on a target dummy, maybe 1 missed AP every other ER
wind furnace
as you will have shb more often, what makes juggling for 2p a bit worse
buoyant gyro
In theory it should actually make it easier on average because every 4pc proc just reduces a generator global you'd need anyway
nova nexus
until shb procs as you’re stabbing
wind furnace
i don't think there is a significant change once you are used to the tier set, but initially switching from live to ptr feels a lot worse
nova nexus
and you go from 1 to 3 and waste it
coarse quiver
i think the difficulty is keeping track of what globals you WANT to use and which globals you NEED to use in order to hit AP at certain times
2pc really throws wrenches sometimes
clear zephyr
Do you guys know if it has been looked at to shuriken storm 2 targets for example to hit 3 CP
I mean probably seems like a very niche situation it would be beneficial
nova nexus
the plate spinning for the lower cps does not feel good or intuitive
buoyant gyro
I mean couldn't you equally argue that ShB being up makes it easier to hit 2s because Backstab will give 2 CP with ShB up? I'm not really sure it ends up being significantly more or less difficult on average.
coarse quiver
yeah that and the BS in dance thing is going to be a pain to get used to. feels not intended but fuck it dam is dam
coarse quiver
I mean couldn't you equally argue that ShB being up makes it easier to hit 2s be...
sometimes it is sometimes it isnt
thats the issue is that theres just many facotrs you need to take into consideration
nova nexus
I mean couldn't you equally argue that ShB being up makes it easier to hit 2s be...
sht gets you one, you stab and all of the sudden you have 3
buoyant gyro
At the end of the day the time window for ER is pretty large, there's not much reason to stress about it
coarse quiver
whoops thats 3 try again
buoyant gyro
You get them eventually
coarse quiver
sometimes i genuinely dont lol
on ptr, sometimes its just not possible to hit one without heavily fucking the rotation
but maybe its worth fucking the rotation
still not sure
nova nexus
maybe mess with it more on a dummy, or you’re just better but there are times I could not without fucking up the rotation
hazy girder
It is very rare to be completely unable to hit it
If you are finding it impossible to hit you have the best rng in the world
clear zephyr
Windfury totem makes it feel better
hazy girder
And hitting one anima cp is the least of your concerns
buoyant gyro
on ptr, sometimes its just not possible to hit one without heavily fucking the r...
I mean we proved out with some APL changes a while ago that there are definitely windows of opportunity to just AA pool outside of Shadow Dance to help hit 2 buffs with ShT
nova nexus
And hitting one anima cp is the least of your concerns
concern or not, it’s the discussion regarding the apl. thanks for the input.
coarse quiver
how cringe is sitting at full energy as sub though
buoyant gyro
Not at full energy
buoyant gyro
Only at low energy
Like on average you'll probably end up wasting 1 2CP buff or something per long fight and that isn't the end of the world really
Maybe we will find some sequencing that makes it more reliable but you'll still end up hitting most of the time
coarse quiver
whoof see im not doing that well yet
nova nexus
what i’m curious is how much you can actually fuck yourself trying to chase it
coarse quiver
guess you triggered my insecurities so its time to go sit on a target dummy for another 2 hours
nova nexus
vs letting it just hit
coarse quiver
also is there ANY value in what finishers you use the ap on
buoyant gyro
The builder delay logic is this:
Backstab immediately unless the next CP is Animacharged and we won't cap energy waiting for it.
actions.build+=/backstab,if=!covenant.kyrian|!(variable.is_next_cp_animacharged&(time_to_sht.3.plus<0.5|time_to_sht.4.plus<1)&energy<60)
coarse quiver
im praying rupture is perfectly fine
do wish SnD would work on AP though, super annoying having that itch to use SnD on an AP
buoyant gyro
Yeah I am not totally sure why they made that decision tbh
I guess they thought they were helping
But it doesn't really help
nova nexus
helping would be refreshing it on eviscerate. lol
wind furnace
i don't think that maintenance finisher are inherently bad
nova nexus
just refresh it for a random interval. give us more rng
wind furnace
they add some depth to the rotation
buoyant gyro
My guess is they thought it would be a "waste" and would feel bad to consume on SnD
But at the end of the day a finisher is a finisher
It makes it more awkward not to count
imo
coarse quiver
helping would be refreshing it on eviscerate. lol
nonono thats a bad idea, i just imagined a world where everytime you hit an AP it makes a new one on a different point, infinitely
wind furnace
tbh a lot of decisions are not straight forward
nova nexus
agree. nothing feels impactful with it so not being able to use it on all finishers makes it feel hamstrung.
wind furnace
iirc NS is not affecting BP, what seems very inconsistent
coarse quiver
also, with kyrian im noticing im popping a dance charge on a finisher just to not waste CDR, kinda nuts
nova nexus
nonono thats a bad idea, i just imagined a world where everytime you hit an AP i...
after 6 misses it auto posts yo twitter that you failed at wordle
coarse quiver
ah shit
nova nexus
finally a use for the in game social media link
pale jetty
I'm pretty sure if SnD consumed anima cp it would be a dps loss
You always refresh SnD out of dance, and having a few extra seconds on SnD could work against you if instead of an empowered evis when you end up killing bosses with a bit of SnD left
buoyant gyro
I mean you match a lot of your ER finishers outside of dance too
Not like you're using 2cp animacharges in Dance 😛
pale jetty
That's true but you probably gain more from evis out of dance too
Maybe if anima cps made snd more effective in melee speed it would be sick
nova nexus
@buoyant gyro how much have you messed on the ptr with the set. just curious of your thoughts on the gameplay loop (not the dps or the sim dps). do you enjoy the gameplay and why?
buoyant gyro
Sub set I've probably played with the least because it's broken on a lot of dummies and I don't always test where it is working 😦
nova nexus
ah
buoyant gyro
I need to test it some more though and I was going to do some focused testing of it tonight to double check a couple minor details
nova nexus
it legit seems such a weird direction to take the spec.
I keep trying to find some enjoyment with it and just get irritated. lol
buoyant gyro
I mean my gut feeling on it is largely that I don't really care. Extra CP are nice. I don't really find the gameplay to be disruptive, but I've played a lot of Outlaw so getting a CP back on finishers is not exactly ground-breaking to me. 😛
In theory it's nice when it pops off in AoE
The lack of consistency is somewhat annoying though and that's probably the most practical impact (in terms of pull to pull consistency, less than feel or gameplay)
Said it on the last TotT but I do find it amusing that essentially the Sub and Outlaw bonuses are mirrors of each other in a way--giving Outlaw ShT and giving Sub Ruthlessness/Broadsides. Anyone who plays both specs a lot won't really be phased by it imo, but I could see it feeling odd initially.
wind furnace
consistency was also my main concern when testing
getting a 1 minute interval of no procs in a storm->finisher setup did not lead to a positive feedback
nova nexus
it feels like we’ve gone from a setup spec to a reactionary spec, for whatever the reason.
and I don’t mind changing things up, but if I wanted to play outlaw I would play outlaw.
buoyant gyro
I mean this is always the "risk" with set bonuses. People generally ask for gameplay-impacting bonuses over something like "Your Shadowstrike deals 10% more damage" but the flip-side of that is that gameplay changes will...change the gameplay. 😛
nova nexus
assa set changes gmeplay. it’s still assa
wind furnace
assassinations set mainly changes gameplay due to a legendary that has good synergy and snapshotting
i would argue that akaaris proccing PV is also quite impactful on our gameplay
the one thing to complain is the less deterministic nature of the set and i think its a fair complain
but it could be the intent when designing the set to make subtlety a lot more reactive in gameplay
it is just that most players who played the spec for a bit like it because it nature to be consistent and predictable
as much as i personally think there would be a lot of options to keep that part of the spec intact while offering a exciting tierset, i also can understand from a design perspective why a "shake things up" idea could be appealing
winged fiber
pv is cringe
nova nexus
to me it seems like the easy out. we’ll just toss more of x
and that’s not to say that there wasn’t thought put into
i don’t think it fits what the 300 of us playing during BfA enjoyed about the core of the spec
south osprey
300 is a bit generous
nova nexus
300 between mythic and heroic. 
livid ferry
set is shit
move on
should have made it a 16.6% chance so its equal to rolling a 6 sided die
just to really copy paste outlaw to sub
coarse quiver
its poggers wdym
clear zephyr
Fuu do you know the dps difference for EoN in execute vs regular dagger in 9.2 is
execute/4 stacks
potent vault
Eon will win
coarse quiver
yeah thats poggers
buoyant gyro
"Celerity except it doesn't trigger the same way, or from the same thing, or do the same thing at all" 🤣
livid ferry
same thing
unkempt peak
When the only thing that gets tuned each patch Is the 'new' system they introduce, but your new system is feelsbad RNG
plucky storm
"Celerity except it doesn't trigger the same way, or from the same thing, or do ...
we're improving though, because now we're getting to the combo points = damage
just gotta pull it back a little
wind furnace
pls don't spam, some memes are fine but don't overdo it
nova nexus
what had happened was the tier set high rolled, so all the memes hit at once.
barren forge
Just tuning into, apologies if this is the 10000th time this has been asked, stuck at work and haven’t kept up with channel. Ptr changes is another slight tune down?
wind furnace
you refer to the wowhead article from earlier today?
barren forge
Yeah
wind furnace
that change was last week, and it did bring the tier set value down from 25% to 17-18%
its still very strong, just more random
barren forge
Oh okay. I thought that change looks familiar but couldn’t remember the numbers.
unkempt peak
If you could take the RNG away from the two piece or four piece which would you rather?
Something like every fifth shadowstrike gives you 5 seconds of shadowblades?
wind furnace
i like the idea of having guaranteed 4p procs during shadowblades
its not my idea, but its a nice one
unkempt peak
That would be sweet keeping it RNG but adding a layer of protection
Also I just noticed that the enh and sub sets are both very similar to each other - but I think the reason enh works better with the RNG is because they already have legendaries in place to help kinda be the badluck protection
Because akaaris doesn't proc the 2 set right?
wind furnace
akaari does not proc the 2p
unkempt peak
Like I get why it doesnt, because it would be nuts if it did - just made me thing after I saw your post yesterday about being in combat spamming finishers and not getting a 4pc? Proc for over a minute
wind furnace
yes
i was hitting the aoe dummies for 5 minutes
so storm-finish, what should idealy mean that you have a lot of procs
but i had a one minute downtime with no procs
and also some shorter periods of around 20-30s
i do think it might be just unlucky, but it just shows how the lower proc rate does indeed make it less cosistent
unkempt peak
Yeah RNG without badluck protection can really feel bad, im sure it's gonna feel great when you get back to back procs and have like 20 seconds of free shadowblades, but I'm sure it will feel equally as awful when a minute into a boss pull you have only got like 2 two piece procs and no four piece
wind furnace
i mean to also say that
unkempt peak
Just wish it wasn't a feast or famine style of gameplay
wind furnace
i had 3 back to back procs too and one follow up shortly after
so as you mentioned it can swing both directions
but for me, the user experience was worse because i did remember the times i did not get a proc more than the ones i got very lucky ones
back to back procs like this are also extremely lucky i assume
unkempt peak
Yeah I'd assume so, that's the thing that's gonna hurt, you will remember when the set screws you over due to no fault of our own, watching another sub rogue climb the ladder because they got the lucky procs
And just to clarify I'm not trying to say I think the set is poorly designed or isn't interesting, I think it is going to have it's fun moments, but I just wish it wasn't 100% RNG, keep one as RNG and make the other more stable
Similar to how Destro locks set was changed, because they also had a whole bunch of RNG in their first set iteration
nova nexus
the set just feels bad. trying to rationalize is whatever.
enjoy it for the next year
delicate osprey
let's make a drinking game on the sub channel and we do something to the one that uploads a video/stream with the most procs in a row
of course after the balancing
nova nexus
imagine if we were NE’s we could combine procs and jumps
thick wren
hey guys, are we aiming to keep 259 eon as the best offhand for prog?
elder cloak
oh yes
feral schooner
Yes
coarse quiver
are we expecting anymore bugfixes coming this build?
coarse quiver
its literally not crystal ball though we got a list of bugfixes they wanted to make lmao
sharp pebble
Is it still looking like a kyrian tier for st
plucky storm
yes
buoyant gyro
are we expecting anymore bugfixes coming this build?
I'm expecting bugfixes in every build. Otherwise they wouldn't bother making a build. 😄
unkempt peak
Kyrian if you like fighting against the game to try an hit anima charged combo points & venthyr for less struggle but a bit less damage
While kyrian is top dog, you can pick between kyrian and venthyr with only a bit of difference
crisp lichen
whats so hard about hitting a combo point
unkempt peak
the set bonus granting shadowblades & extra combo points on finishers can make it even more awkward than the occasional secret techinque proc, not particularly hard, just awkward
basically if you didnt like the playstyle of kyrian sub before 9.2 you probably wont suddenly start loving it in 9.2
left storm
I hear Ybarra tweeted something about 9.2 possibly being announced tomorrow?
unkempt peak
yeah they usually give about 2 weeks to a months notice before a patch
livid ferry
Next week is prob release candidate
feral schooner
I did now 20 chest openings with a 1.6 pvp rating and got 0 tier sets out of it on ptr. Itemlevel of that chest was 262 (wm off). Is it possible Tier set pieces only drop when the rating fits the piece from the raid? So 1k rating for 252 and 1.8k rating for 265? EDIT: Ok it took 21 chest openings XD
crisp lichen
Next week is prob release candidate
crisp lichen
not enough time for a proper end for pvp season
? what
manic mesa
Don’t they announce the new patch, at like a three weeks before ending the pvp season?
Or am I confused?
plucky storm
2
manic mesa
Ty whisper
crisp lichen
yea but how is there not enough time for an announcement
manic mesa
Idk I guess I was just confused
wind furnace
likely after the tweet koji linked above
22nd sounds very likely, but we will see
i am doing some "fun" things in the meantime
wind furnace
Sylvanas Dagger vs. Mythic Dagger:
Venthyr, double legendary and tier set:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xqPQPoAvNuGUEpAk6KdKjs
kyrian, double legendary and tier set:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qQY8YDJw2smtuu9fnMV3o4
hidden magnet
are these sims with mythic sylv daggers?
wind furnace
yes
hidden magnet
Where would HC versions be?
hidden magnet
Is this kyr or venth btw :)?
wind furnace
kyrian
hidden magnet
damn thats quite large
hidden magnet
might be nerfed then i guess
wind furnace
i mean, they are worth around 1k dps compared to equal itemlevel daggers
so the effect is rly strong
hidden magnet
Just a quick question. Seems like 2x285 is 14k in the first kyr sim but 13.1 in the hc and normal versions
hidden magnet
ah kewl. So myth daggers would prolly sit around 13.5-13.6 then
wind furnace
Sylvanas Dagger Mythic vs New Myrhic Dagger:
venthyr:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/huhyBcxgAHxrAgfKGnw8a9/simc
kyrian:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iMpDa78UNdUbg7Efqujsui
comparison of diffrent dagger itemlevels:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aJwti637iF7ExoGjoujMoM
wind furnace
ah kewl. So myth daggers would prolly sit around 13.5-13.6 then
13.3 like in the sims in the pins 😉
^
hidden magnet
Close enough ^^
neat dagger
how are hc daggers on m+ profiles for vent? can u show that?
wind furnace
i did do that sim already some days ago, but i can ofc re-do it
neat dagger
i did do that sim already some days ago, but i can ofc re-do it
ah yeah, i remember it i guess. not sure 😄
wind furnace
with highest simming talents and best 2 legendary choices: (dungeon slice)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oBU7PRirmRzLxrFWjNRE2p
with conduit switch from pv -> pe too: (dungeon slice)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bDnmG6iH3fyB5TCgxuBo1b
with akaaris instead of finality: (dungeon slice)
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9Tsg3eE8EePf6MbyG1DsmV
But, i think people ask the wrong question here....
The question should be:
How good is the priority damage of both?
and sylvanas wins out clearly with priority_rotation=1
also you can quite freely switch between PE and PV as i talked about when doing some sims.
reference: #916284169057878037 message
wind furnace
yes
ocean ridge
looks like unless i get lucky ill be running 285 mh / 259 slyvie off
wind furnace
wdym lucky?
wind furnace
if you have a 259 sylvanas already you pmuch have that set in your offhand for the rest of the xpac
ocean ridge
yep
wind furnace
again, assuming that blizz does not nerf them
ocean ridge
got it today in chest
wind furnace
mainhand you will replace, and its not that problematic
wind furnace
getting a normal or even heroic seems already like a big gain
so re-visiting the current raid might be worth it
done for now:
40 finisher on 2 and 3 anima empowered combo points, procs:
x = proc; . = no proc
3 - ..x....x....x......x..................xx```Why?
wind furnace
testing for 4p interaction with ER
2 and 3 have the lowest chance of a proc, what means you should have noticeable lower procs if it does not interact.
without interaction:
40 finisher with 6% proc chance
40 finisher with 9% proc chance
with interaction:
80 finisher with 21% proc chance
plucky storm
it does work? lol
Yes
wind furnace
Proc rate from the test was ~15% so closer to working than not working.
hidden magnet
kekw
wind furnace
i think you would need to do 10k to 100k to have enough data to aggregate it to a real proc rate
but this should be enough to confirm it working
turbid scaffold
@wind furnace are you doing those 4p + double DPS sims also for 5 mins patchwerk ?
Forget it, just scrolled up sorry
wind furnace
the pins also have:
- single legendary sims (with 2p and 4p)
- double legendary sims
- sim of the tier set
feral schooner
**Sylvanas Dagger vs. Mythic Dagger:**
Venthyr, double legendary and tier set:
<...
Ty
vestal sedge
there isnt a new dagger in raid with an effect like sylvanas dagger?
wind furnace
there is no effect dagger in the new raid
vestal sedge
didnt they said we get something like sylv dagger? 😦
wind furnace
There was a certain expectation like that
but in the end it was seemingly decided that we only get a regular dagger
the big discussion we have daily or at least very frequently is just about the power level of sylvanas dagger
as there are 2 perspectives on that topic.
one thinks that it is beneficial to have such a big power level on a weapon a lot of people already have
the other argues that having this much power budget bound to a legacy item is bad as it means people need to do old content to compete in new one or that it introduces other issues of acquisition as well as makes new weapon drops less exciting
west basalt
It’s like coral or font in BFA. A small but not negligible gain from an older content
It keeps the content relevant, but it is almost impossible to get it in mythic after the patch because pugging mythic last boss is impossible
wind furnace
its not
sylvanas dagger is significantly higher in impact, having 2 sylvanas daggers is a 10%+ baseline damage gain
west basalt
Hopefully for new rogues, the difference with hc dagger is not to big
But not if you compare with 9.2 gear
wind furnace
thats the diffrence to a dagger with about equal itemlevel
but its rly no issue to show how big the diffrence is
mossy carbon
But not if you compare with 9.2 gear
285 mythic daggers that drop from 11th boss
west basalt
From what I see from your sims, the difference is about 3%
mossy carbon
Need to consider that you won't have this, you probably have 1 heroic dagger at 265 for progression
west basalt
285 mythic daggers that drop from 11th boss
Yeah I mean if you want to reroll rogue after progress. For progress, not having them is big
west basalt
If you plan to progress on any class you better not start gearing at 9.2 launch
west basalt
Oh
Yeah the difference is huge in execute
Do you think we can expect a nerf on them ?
delicate osprey
hope not it would kneecap the little chances we have at progress
delicate osprey
but who can say
west basalt
I’m happy to have dropped them in my first vault
wind furnace
i am also due to how it worked in other tiers not confident that rogue would get buffed to the point it is now with the dagger
but i can understand how having a 1k dps diffrence in baseline due to an item can lead to some balancing issues esp. during the early stages of the raid
acoustic cobalt
I wonder when they are creating these items, if having stay SUCH powerful legacy items is intended. The whole idea, conceptually, seems a little strange to me to have an item ~30ilvl lower than the current gear be more powerful
Seems to contradict the whole design mantra they adopted where they basically said higher ilvl gear should almost always be an upgrade in order to keep gear acquisition exciting
coarse kettle
i mean they can nerf them in 9.2.5... But i think theyre very important to keep sub rogue relevant for progress
acoustic cobalt
But that’s my point - the idea that an item from 9.1 is required to be relevant in 9.2
coarse kettle
yes, but do you really think they nerf the daggers AND buff sub?
acoustic cobalt
I’m not suggesting they do one thing or another. I’m resigned to the fact this is likely going to ship as is, and the haves will be powerhouses and the have nots will have to settle for what they can get
My point is that it’s strange that they have these items despite having discussed in the past that for the sake of player satisfaction, higher ilvl should almost always be better than lower ilvl
To keep gear acquisition exciting for players
If it’s a few % difference then you could argue getting M EoN is just min/maxing. But 10% is huge
coarse kettle
i hate the concept of it too. it took me around 19 trys so get one. fuck this shit. But i also want to be progress relevant. So i think the only problem with daggers is: when u have 2 rogues in your guild and the better rogue doesn t get the dagger and the worse rogue does. There might be a situation where u choose the worse player over the better.
rapid ledge
i think its fair to say that these should be nerfed. you can clear every week and still be unlucky. not having them is already a feelsbad imagine if it was the case in 9.2 and it was impossible to get them
weary goblet
Oh no more people want our daggers nerfed
It’s disgusting if you ask me
rapid ledge
it will change nothing to most people. bring the player not the class si what happen in 99% of the guilds
potent vault
Let’s just nerf our class by a large percent because people couldn’t clear SoD consistently
coarse kettle
i think its fair to say that these should be nerfed. you can clear every week an...
But who does this benefit? I dont think it benefits the player with no daggers.
rapid ledge
Let’s just nerf our class by a large percent because people couldn’t clear SoD c...
i clear it everyweek for 2 and a half month. never seen that dagger. i get that its annoying to lose power but the other way around is not better
wind furnace
I agree, it seems problematic to talk about nerfs
coarse kettle
i clear it everyweek for 2 and a half month. never seen that dagger. i get that ...
But who are you competing against?
wind furnace
but i think this is a bit on blizz that won't give us the confidence in them to balance things propper
coarse kettle
i clear it everyweek for 2 and a half month. never seen that dagger. i get that ...
when there is another player in your guild having them i understand your argument. But when this isn t the case: it s just for you having a better log in the end
wind furnace
i think a lot of ppl like to be able to switch classes up in 9.2
rapid ledge
But who are you competing against?
plenty of people but like i said. 99% of the people are in groups where its a bring the player not the class. this kind of "it will kill our prog chance" mentality only applies to a small set of people.
wind furnace
and everyone who want to will unavoidable esp. in a competitive guild run into the issue of getting the dagger
so, if a lot of rogue main in here did cry about acquiring the dagger during a long time of the raid
coarse kettle
when there is another player in your guild having them i understand your argumen...
and better logs are so irrelevant in these PI days
wind furnace
it seems very reasonable to ask for a item that has early as much as 10% damage impact to be nerfed
again, i don't say "they should do it", just try to look at it from the point of somone who likes to play rogue and mained a other class before
feral schooner
The whole issue is imo they could have just make the dagger evolve in 9.2 make a quest of whatever.
wind furnace
the thing with he dagger is that it will over time get lower in relevance
rapid ledge
nerfing/not nerfing is a lose lose situation. keeping them the same will make those that reroll/unlcuky angry. nerfing them will make those that farmed them since the start angry
feral schooner
nerfing/not nerfing is a lose lose situation. keeping them the same will make th...
tbh if you reroll in 9.2 to sub its to late. Just play then assa or outlaw
wind furnace
but outlaw also depends on the dagger 😛
rapid ledge
tbh if you reroll in 9.2 to sub its to late. Just play then assa or outlaw
thats not the blizz mentality tho
acoustic cobalt
I mean, all of this is just one huge design flaw
feral schooner
but outlaw also depends on the dagger 😛
just offhand and tbh is it that much? idk
feral schooner
I mean, all of this is just one huge design flaw
Its just badly executed imo
acoustic cobalt
To say that playing a class is dependent on a lucky drop from a previous tier
acoustic cobalt
Its just badly executed imo
6 of 1, half dozen of the other - were saying the same thing
cedar yew
There is no way they will leave it like that 😒
wind furnace
just offhand and tbh is it that much? idk
i can check in a minute, but it should be quite a bit
cedar yew
I mean, its blizzard they might.
But having to go back to SoD.
To get daggers seams silly.
wind furnace
just talking lore wise
acoustic cobalt
Well expect that to be the case come 9.2 lol
wind furnace
sylvanas is a strong lore character, so her dagger being super powerful is nothing bad
slender iris
If a couple % damage on 1 dps genuinely makes a difference to your guild (the difference in being able to kill a boss, not your feelings about it) then you've already been clearing it for months (5-6 not 2-3) and have daggers
wind furnace
also lore wise
rapid ledge
If a couple % damage on 1 dps genuinely makes a difference to your guild (the di...
well 4% seems more than a "couple"
wind furnace
having sylvanas dagger from a mystical chest vs. looting it from the corpse of your defeated enemy seems weird
(most ppl get dagger from chest and not as a boss drop)
coarse kettle
nerfing/not nerfing is a lose lose situation. keeping them the same will make th...
it s not the farming aspect.. fuck lore and and fuck items... it s about being relevant for progress. Having no daggers will only affect people who have to compete against another player with daggers and your log numbers
rapid ledge
it s not the farming aspect.. fuck lore and and fuck items... it s about being r...
like i said. its like 1% of the players
maybe less
weary goblet
Holy
cedar yew
I mean if the dps was minior, but its not. It's close to 1k dps haha
coarse kettle
I mean if the dps was minior, but its not. It's close to 1k dps haha
in execute
wind furnace
well 4% seems more than a "couple"
baseline without double legendary/tier set is around 10-11k
having 1.1k more dps on that means up to 10%
acoustic cobalt
To be honest; how many people this impacts is a moot point. I’m no game dev, but if we have people outside of blizzard able to come to these conclusions about player power with these daggers, I imagine blizzard can do even more
wind furnace
they absolutely can
acoustic cobalt
So it seems strange to me that nobody saw the writing on the wall
slender iris
Believe it or not there are new daggers in 9.2 that will narrow the gap, you're not perma 10% behind until 10.0 if you haven't got lucky with daggers
mossy carbon
I just don't want to play fucking assassination for the 800th tier, please leave daggers as is
rapid ledge
they absolutely can
pretty sure they will wait the last second to avoid the outcry for it lol. expect the ninja nerf
acoustic cobalt
^again, the idea this even a point of convo is an issue in and of itself
wind furnace
So it seems strange to me that nobody saw the writing on the wall
i mean, all balance changes so far were related to tier sets
not saying it must happen, but general balancing can happen after they are done with balancing 9.2 systems
and i think looking at base power level, like we discuss in here would fall into that category
wind furnace
some ppl took 17 attempts to get 1
feral schooner
if your in eu happy to help
wind furnace
so, rly depends how you look at it
also finding a group will be a lot harder as most ppl cba running old content
rapid ledge
so, rly depends how you look at it
at 10. still counting 
acoustic cobalt
I’ve run 10/10 H sod for 3-4 mo. Seen it drop twice for other rogues
mossy carbon
at 10. still counting <:pepehands:757566347558387803>
That's not a lot
cedar yew
Guildie got it at his 16th run
wind furnace
the problem with the dagger is inherently the limitation from drops
mossy carbon
You're not even likely to have it by that point
cedar yew
But then he got double Mythic one in 2 mythic sylv run \o/
wind furnace
you have only 2 rogue specs that can loot the dagger and you need to get a loot drop on it
so the issue becomes one of aquisation
acoustic cobalt
So to say “it’s not that hard” is meaningless… nobody is saying killing the boss is hard.
wind furnace
btw. just to say this here, bonusrolls did solve this issue more than the great vault
mossy carbon
the problem with the dagger is inherently the limitation from drops
Yep, having items like daggers and switching up which specs get access to cool weapons/trinkets/whatever every tier is fun and adds an extra dimension to balancing, if the items are not too egregious.
If Master Looter was still in the game nobody (almost) would be whining about it
mental estuary
I liked bonus rolls far more than Chest, tbh.
Bad for engagement metrics though I suppose.
wind furnace
there is also a added issue of bad luck protection
koji talked about it quite a bit, but you usualyl get loot around certain bosses all the time
coarse kettle
Yes i agree. Bonus rolls made loot targeting much better
wind furnace
due to how bad luck protection works
acoustic cobalt
They should allow you to get an item that lets you apply the effect at half power to a 9.2 item that removes the tertiary stats
Or w/e the value of the effect ends up being
Could be an interesting middle ground
wind furnace
i did like the approach of atbt
when they allowed you to buy tokens that would give you easier access to old powerful items
ofc it was still random, but you could get e.g. a arcano on a certain item level without farming old content
mental estuary
How does WoWs bad luck protection work? I feel like it doesn't work that well for me, but maybe that's just confirmation bias.
wind furnace
you basically have a higher chance to get a loot drop every time you don't get a drop
this introduces a bias to the loot distribution in the raid given that only 4 pieces of loot drop on every boss
basically can mean that you always get a loot piece on certain bosses and very rarely on others
its an issue if you fish for one specific item like the sylvanas dagger
coarse kettle
when they allowed you to buy tokens that would give you easier access to old pow...
soul embers would be great for that. But instead they used it for something worse🥲
mental estuary
Yeah, that makes sense, tbh.
wind furnace
it is also why certain players talk about "getting benched till sylvanas" when they had for long enough no loot drop
assuming the guild would allow that even, most wouldn't or can't
mental estuary
Well, 10% next patch is pretty big. Maybe I can convince my guild to help me target farm Dagger. 😆
wind furnace
i am not even sure if it is that big
the hype this patch does not feel as significant as it was for other patches or the xpac release
but maybe thats because we don't have a official announcement at this point
mental estuary
Yeah, maybe.
wind furnace
i am certainly excited about having a new raid tier
mental estuary
Yeah, new raid tiers always exciting.
acoustic cobalt
Am I wrong in my understanding that EoN is less impactful in dungeons? Simming my char with a H EoN OH is like +~40 in dungeon slice vs like ~150 in patchwork
mental estuary
I think lack of excitement less about the raid, and more about WoW as a whole and casuals feeling kind WoW kinda mean.
mental estuary
Am I wrong in my understanding that EoN is less impactful in dungeons? Simming m...
I'd say it's the other way.
EoN kinda mediocre in cleave, but in raid with priority targets is pretty big.
acoustic cobalt
Yeah changed raid to dungeon, was a typo
mental estuary
Especially since it's a pseudo execute, and most raid encounters have hardest part of the fight in execute range.
acoustic cobalt
Cause that’s one my last ray of hope, I’m more of a m+ pusher than CE chaser
wind furnace
Am I wrong in my understanding that EoN is less impactful in dungeons? Simming m...
depends at what you look at
i did some sims earlier, giveme a sec
mental estuary
I think depends on your group though, I do think Sub largely brought to M+ for their prio target niche. But maybe I'm wrong.
wind furnace
because everyone inherently looks at at overall dps:
acoustic cobalt
Top set is showing what? Aoe damage?
mental estuary
It's the age old thing with damage really. Prio damage so huge compared to just random cleave, gets forgotten with meters a lot I think.
wind furnace
Top set is showing what? Aoe damage?
its a 5 target sim, and the top shows overall , bottom priority target
the diffrence was only .3% dps
and i think the majority would sacrafice .3% dps in overall for 3-4% more prio
acoustic cobalt
Fair. I think I can live with the 2x 285 damage profile tho for doing m+. I’m about to break 2.5k IO with 2x 252 on live now. If I can expect the same relative level of m+ progression in 9.2, then M SoD can go pound sand
acoustic cobalt
TL:DR - M EoN big dam in 9.2 (especially in raid). 2x285 less dam u r a lil sad boi 😦 (but be happy, just a game!)
pliant minnow
oh man there needs to be a tl;dr xD
sylvie daggers are kinda BIS, but its like idgaf because you dont need it unless your chasing parses
livid ferry
If you don’t have sylvanas dagger then you should go and get one, if you cant go and get one thats on you
wind furnace
just to put that into the conversation
mental estuary
Or you want 10% extra damage for prog? That's a good reason to want one. If you leave 10% on the table for no reason you're literally inting your raid man.
wind furnace
acquiring a 285 dagger won't be that easy too
pliant minnow
acquiring a 285 dagger won't be that easy too
is that jailer ilvl or vault ilvl?
wind furnace
is that jailer ilvl or vault ilvl?
mythic last boss itemlevel
civic terrace
sylvie daggers are kinda BIS, but its like idgaf because you dont need it unless...
Thats about the opposite of what is being said.. Play sylvie daggers is the message
pliant minnow
ty sir, yeah that'll be a pain
wind furnace
similar to sylvanas dagger
mental estuary
The effort is being put in by a lot of us, to no avail. :/
But hopefully rngesus throws me a bone before next patch.
worldly osprey
i'm mad at the dagger..why make a mandatory item for 10% baseline a last boss item that is RNG
livid ferry
Go loot it
nova nexus
be mad at the acquisition not the lot
be mad that it’s required to keep us competitive in ST with assa
livid ferry
The item also isn’t mandatory unless you are mythic raiding at a high level
nova nexus
and those ass clowns want it nerfed.
because we sim more
be mad that the tier set is a joke
or just reroll
livid ferry
If you’re gonna get mad at them for making loot that has an effect on it that is strong because you don’t have it and think its mandatory and all this bullshit
nova nexus
or just be mad
wind furnace
i am unsure rly, haven't seen that much discussion about it in the assassinaiton channel
livid ferry
You’re just a weird individual
nova nexus
i am unsure rly, haven't seen that much discussion about it in the assassinaiton...
it gets low key brought up. they all want ilvl
livid ferry
Put forth the effort into your character, if you aren’t doing that then you probably aren’t actually doing the content where the dagger is mandatory
Stop crying
livid ferry
Go blog about the loot system which is the core issue
Doing a boss 20+ times and not getting the thing you want is the core issue
wind furnace
i think you are a bit in conflict with what you say
mental estuary
Not mad about the Dagger, just the whole situation in general.
Not crying.
How would you feel if you got a trial next tier with a better guild than your own, but you're gimped 10% because that guy has the Dagger and you don't?
wind furnace
if you say "put in effort, you are responsible", but also "blame the loot system if you put in effort but got unlucky"
civic terrace
Its not 10%
livid ferry
If your future guild doesn’t realizie why the other guy is doing more damage than you you should leave the guild bcuz they are dumb as shit
livid ferry
if you say "put in effort, you are responsible", but also "blame the loot system...
Yes
You should put in the effort
If your effort isn’t rewarded there is another issue at hand
Its not the daggers fault it exists and didnt drop for you
wind furnace
i mean, i don't disagree
mental estuary
All guilds dumb as shit. Performance matters. Otherwise people would care about ilvl parses, lol.
livid ferry
No because ilvl parses are a flawed metric
wind furnace
it was just funny that there is a bit of a conflict of statements
livid ferry
That is why no one cares about ilvl parses
Omg i got a 100 ilvl parse as the only player with 3 ilvl
mental estuary
Its not 10%
It's 10% from Heroic daggers next patch.
livid ferry
Im insane!
nova nexus
there’s no real absolute with it fuu. the dagger is cool. it’s fun, it’s not fun running lfr, normal, heroic slyv while progging sylv
civic terrace
Its already 10% from heroic daggers now.. i fail to see the relevance of heroic level loot
livid ferry
Idk if there is really a conflict of statements
nova nexus
waaaaaaaaah my ilvl
potent vault
I heard if you had consistently killed Sylvannas on multiple difficulties
nova nexus
most specs would happily not have to worry about farming a weapon during prog
livid ferry
If you don’t get the loot over several tries and vaults
potent vault
You would be likely to get a dagger
nova nexus
yet here we are complaining.
livid ferry
There is an entirely different issue
mental estuary
Its already 10% from heroic daggers now.. i fail to see the relevance of heroic ...
Week 3 of next raid, you're 6/10M and Heroic is on hard farm.
livid ferry
Than a dagger existing
Rae its crazy ive killed mythic sylvanas over 20 times
And i have 2 daggers
Crazy how that works
potent vault
Just don’t talk about KT
potent vault
We finally saw shoulders drop
civic terrace
Week 3 of next raid, you're 6/10M and Heroic is on hard farm.
Likely, your point?
livid ferry
Cn people did the same shit btw
Going back and getting coral
Or font
I think its cool
Adds more of the old wow back into the game
livid ferry
Where you didnt just replace literally all your gear
potent vault
Or to get a chance at a titanforged font
nova nexus
people just don’t want to farm a 15 minute fight. ahahah
mental estuary
Likely, your point?
10% damage pretty huge in prog, yeah?
livid ferry
Idk where youre getting this 10% number
nova nexus
thinking a rogue will be on prog 
livid ferry
But you’re high
wind furnace
Its not 10%
you are correct, even tho thats with daggers that have far better stats than the ones from current raid:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m4FsWWkvmbmPWJ66vzXTTn
mental estuary
Not fair to compare to font / coral, other specs wanted to farm the content for gear too.
nova nexus
@livid ferry we LA gaming during prog right?
mental estuary
Idk where youre getting this 10% number
livid ferry
Ok so 10% comparing to literal current raid ilvl shit
wind furnace
Why are you comparing 252’s
252 is the highest non sylvanas you can get
livid ferry
252 is the highest non sylvanas you can get
Ok who cares just loot a dungeon dagger in vault
278
wind furnace
and you won't have a heroic or higher dagger week 1
livid ferry
The constant crybabying about dagger being so strong stinks of “please nerf it i dont want to farm it anymore”
wind furnace
what means at least 9% lower dps baseline