every single global you do
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
livid ferry
prime rune
ok sec lemme
livid ferry
log it
go 5 mins
not some 1 min garbage where you get a 40k gloomblade and present that as evidence
pale jetty
Can slap the apl changes for it, but it def is a loss on venth
And probably won't be much for kyrian
prime rune
i do my fights 6min mate not 1 min
pale jetty
It might be an increase over current rotten usage on kyrian
livid ferry
ok go for it mate
pale jetty
But that's so far from akaari
prime rune
dk do u want to come and make cage fight with me 1v1 roq vs roq 5 min strait dps fight?
u talk alot, letz see how is your fingers
on wow
dim mural
Yeah I mean from what I understood rotten was only really in question if they weren't going to make akaari's work, which since it does there's not really any point right?
livid ferry
post your raid logs lmao
your words carry no weight everyone in here thinks you are a literal chimp
pale jetty
I think DK has more than fine fingers for the game 😅
prime rune
yes feel sorry for u that u think that way for yourself:( get brave
prime rune
your words carry no weight everyone in here thinks you are a literal chimp
its insane how can one person only talk on discord, call ppl chimp and execute everyone also in it, but cant face 1v1, sad story, wait i will send my log but not for u 😄
dim mural
mint sequoia
I mean really
dk trash, no respect
wind furnace
rly quick try with rank 13 pv
but i am unsure if it plays it well, so giveme a sec to look
mint sequoia
if dk was good he wouldn't hide his logs
mint sequoia
But yea, you're gonna have a pretty tough time selling the "I did 10 trials of hitting a target dummy for 60 seconds with potentially inconsistent/imperfect play" as evidence, there really is no way to compare different setups other than sims
wind furnace
hmm, i guess i need to check if er is on cooldown too
because the rotten buff is only 2 secs
pale jetty
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2x8G6FrUkmsSBzjrBx1qVu/simc>
That's compared to akaari, or what's "kyrian"
wind furnace
baseline is kyrian with er + rotten, new is well the apl changes
look at the damage rang
but its + - 0
livid ferry
clear zephyr
We love variance
clear zephyr
Playable though if you really enjoyed the rotation
livid ferry
try gloombladester just for funsies
wdym playable
akaari is like several hundred dps ahead
livid ferry
and akaari actually does stuff outside of ST
pale jetty
Yeah no it won't
buoyant gyro
I mean box plots with 6k iterations are not something a human can make any sense out of 😄
pale jetty
Venth is outside the question
wind furnace
I mean box plots with 6k iterations are not something a human can make any sense...
its funny because the variance is almost identical
buoyant gyro
It's like a single iteration outlier
wind furnace
ye
livid ferry
fuu slot gloomblade in for talents
wind furnace
sure can do, giveme a sec
dim mural
livid ferry
is your condition tailored to also include gloomblade if taken?
mellow urchin
haha
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/d4zf6wZBsuc2C1pHoggF9S/simc>
is there any reason its using symbols 20 seconds in?
wind furnace
the condition is fairly simple, but it can be flawed
mellow urchin
hold symbols for 20 seconds just to use it on a strike
wind furnace
thats why we need to iterate over it
mellow urchin
ngl this sim is fully bricked
livid ferry
just make it use the first symbols normally
livid ferry
probably
wind furnace
i see it as somehting positive, if its "bad" you can improve it
livid ferry
its already good to auto crit pv backstab on live
its gonna be a gain
i can tell you that for certain
wind furnace
if it was perfect already, i would be more concerned
dim mural
Let's see that +3% optimization baby
mellow urchin
ofc its gonna be better than using it on a strike
its obvious
question is just how much better
livid ferry
prob not enough to be better than akaari
pale jetty
I think a huge issue with comparing it to akaari is that akaari does more damage overall in the downtime of rotten, and gives double PV usage
livid ferry
ye i mean
wind furnace
well, still no gain but should be better:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eQCNxR2vHQULBvTBfqQySv/simc
oh no, i forgot er there, moment
pale jetty
Also does gloom even beat backstab
wind furnace
in terms of output yes
wind furnace
but only if you compare output from gloomblade to backstab
livid ferry
that was a good troll for the moment
wind furnace
overall, its just a ded talent
civic terrace
The notion of giving up WM 
dim mural
But if you sim position=front then gloomblade is huge
livid ferry
silence evolixe i remember you were arguing Gloomblade>WM in the plaguefall heroic solo last 2 bosses thing
you were also once a gloomblade delusional
pale jetty
Gloom is lower dps baseline than backstab from behind BUT DD might put it slightly ahead again
civic terrace
I wasnt argueing that at all
dim mural
Gloom is slightly ahead of BS with DD but it's still not WM so who cares
pale jetty
I think the real benefit of gloom is the bypass in pvp
civic terrace
I did do that, but that was more of a thing out of ignorance and I never made a case for it
pale jetty
Goes through armor
dim mural
Well sure but if you're that concerned about plate in pvp then just go sin and gg. like it's still not good
livid ferry
in reality gloomblade should be backstab, it was something they should have done with the shadowlands sub rework
but they are dumb n lazy
pale jetty
Akaari should be shadow damage
livid ferry
ye whole diff topic
civic terrace
lmao wtf is this
livid ferry
bug
nova nexus
Akaari should be shadow damage
let dk finish malding over this first.
civic terrace
Sounds like a fun bug, just get all the legendaries!
wind furnace
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iEnUQpqZKB9id7SBKuXUMH/simc
i think i have another thing to test/optimize
pale jetty
lmao wtf is this
They haven't implemented wearing cov legendary as unique I guess
livid ferry
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iEnUQpqZKB9id7SBKuXUMH/simc>
i think i h...
what thing
the box plot tells us nothing about what thing you want to test
civic terrace
They haven't implemented wearing cov legendary as unique I guess
Ye apparently its unity stacking
prime rune
this is 5 min 30 sec , i just record one fast but i did alot of mistake so i could do way better https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/XB9MKarbQvYAfPm6#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=5
livid ferry
its a private report or unlisted
prime rune
but logs show wierd i hit 5 min but it show 6 min wierd
livid ferry
i see an agi pot
what other buffs/consumes did you use?
also used shadowdust prepull
prime rune
i use always same, i got used to so i use cheese dust and use my pots normally
yes because im so used to, i wanna do it with it
pale jetty
but logs show wierd i hit 5 min but it show 6 min wierd
First 50 seconds are empty is why
livid ferry
did you use feast, flask, etc?
wind furnace
what thing
i will add to not finish for animacharged cp when rotten is up
because it would symbols-finish-finish some times
livid ferry
ic
prime rune
make better, come ingame and show how to make better then, i ahve never said im best player in the world:D but u talk like u are little one 😄 , i just wanted to see possbilities, i will log again because i just did 13k 6 min overall also earlier
wind furnace
ill keep getting +-0
pale jetty
Is it holding symbols
flint canyon
tierset can eat rotten if you finish after symbols i think
wind furnace
Is it holding symbols
it does indeed, but thats a consequence of using it to not overcap or similar
pale jetty
Mmm
I don't think it's possible to line it up without holding it which is just a dps loss/neutral
pale jetty
Yeah but how else are you gonna ensure it always uses symbols when you hit 6 stacks
wind furnace
the problem is
e.g. you use dance to not cap
then symbols is suddenly only 3 sec cd left
what to do?
use bs, then dance?
well you delayed symbols by 10 secs
mint sequoia
make better, come ingame and show how to make better then, i ahve never said im ...
in game testing will never mean anything
wind furnace
wait for 2 secs doing nothing? does sound bad too
mint sequoia
it's only for testing bugs/mechanics
pale jetty
Yeah, I think realistically the best way to play it is to use symbols off cd regardless, but prioritize using it on 6 stack pv which is... What the original apl is no?
There doesn't seem to be any way to sneak in minmaxing rotten's impact on stab
wind furnace
the bot can
pale jetty
Are you able to get sod stab every time?
mellow urchin
you play around symbols with this
yes
cus you play around symbols
as usual
you just make sure you dance before
pale jetty
And continue into a dance after it?
mellow urchin
yea
pale jetty
But wouldn't you be overcapping or sitting on dances esp as kyr
mellow urchin
nah
pale jetty
You'd have to wait for like 8 sec left on sod before dancing first
mellow urchin
yea
mellow urchin
ye thats not how you play it
wind furnace
its just a diffrent approach, but again shadowdance stacks will still impact the "alignment"
as you need to burn your charges sooner or later, and if it overlaps with your "perfect sequence" you need to either delay or ignore it
buoyant gyro
clearly not
I mean just sounds like the rules being applied here haven't been adequately defined. APL can obviously do anything a human can do, usually much better. The question is the ruleset you apply at the end of the day.
Plenty of things in the log linked above where SoD is being used in odd places where it wouldn't be very beneficial as well. The start of the log looks ok mostly because of the near-infinite Dance uptime due to the Shadowdust swap, later in the log the alignment start to fall apart. Since the sims Fuu are doing atm aren't using the Shadowdust cheese setup, it's natural things would be misaligned sooner.
Suspect if Fuu did the Vanish/Shadowdust prepull parameters it would look much better towards the start of the sim
But that's just since you basically get 100% uptime on Shadow Dance for quite a while with that opener
mellow urchin
has literally nothing to do with shadowdust
prime rune
na na
buoyant gyro
has literally nothing to do with shadowdust
Not sure what you mean. In the logs above he uses the prepull Vanish setup, which is what leads to being able to poop out Shadow Dances for full coverage for quite some time. I would say it has a pretty major impact on the alignment when the cooldown/charge offsets are different than "normal."
pale jetty
So I'm just interested in how this affects akaari, because rotten isn't what we're looking at really
We're looking at optimizing sod usage for pv
mellow urchin
Not sure what you mean. In the logs above he uses the prepull Vanish setup, whic...
because shadowdust has nothing to do with it
buoyant gyro
Sims are going to have totally different Shadow Dance charge availability if not using that
mellow urchin
i dont expect you to understand if you've never tried it yourself
flint canyon
i dont expect you to understand if you've never tried it yourself
situations do come up that you become saturated with dance charges and need to choose between sitting on 2 cahrges or sending it fucking the pv stcks for symbols
buoyant gyro
I mean, I suppose it's easier to just say that than explain why you think the conditions being different wouldn't yield a different result. The opener in that log is clearly heavily relying on basically having full Shadow Dance uptime for larger than normal to make the SoD usage less wasteful. That isn't the case later in the log where SoD is being used significantly less efficiently relative to Shadow Dance.
mint sequoia
isn't push purely just talking about the first cast of symbols happening crazy late?
even with no prepull anything you're basically in dance for 40 seconds straight
mellow urchin
as usual with all these things
the apl is trying too hard
and cant make smart calls
on when to not go for the pv stab
and when to do it
prime rune
yes i never told u that, i did best move in that log lmao 😄
this one just did 11k but i was doing 13k something vent wrong which i cant sort out also
nova nexus
maybe we pull the debate club trick and you both argue each other’s position. 😂
buoyant gyro
I mean I don't understand how it's being presented that there is some perfect way to sync this up.. Say "it just syncs up nbd" then show a log example where things are often not perfectly synced up. Then get critical the APL isn't perfectly syncing things up.
mellow urchin
lapis wasp
does assanation have a niche in 9.2 if sub beats it on st?
mint sequoia
Being the easy spec
nova nexus
1 min CDs
mellow urchin
Being the easy spec
assa probably harder than sub
buoyant gyro
All anyone is asking for is an outline of how this is expected to work and what exactly is being suggested. Because I still haven't actually seen that. Fuu, others say "that won't work because of X" and the response is just "it works ok, don't worry about it" without any examples. Just give examples, this isn't like a crazy ask. 😛
mellow urchin
with the snapshot shit
mint sequoia
for german raid leaders in a strict 3 day guild that doesn't want to play sub*
nova nexus
not as reliant on Edge of Night
lapis wasp
so just not quite as rng
prime rune
@buoyant gyro gameplay is wierd, need time to sort it out, tonight and tomarrow i will try non stop and send u once i get perfect 5min
mint sequoia
i haven't looked at a ton of data because there aren't really any super finalized sims, but during CDs it should be higher damage
and out of CDs is where sub catches up, so if you REALLY care about damage during CDs, sin would win
nova nexus
@buoyant gyro I understand your point, I also recognize that I think there is a slight language barrier as well as 80% of the players in her jumping down someone’s throat for presenting what they were trying to work out
lapis wasp
@nova nexus 1 min cds - what are those? thought vendetta was the big one for assa which is 2 min
mint sequoia
<@!226395155098370049> 1 min cds - what are those? thought vendetta was the big ...
you play duskwalkers treads
lapis wasp
oh okay I see
mint sequoia
for 60 second(ish) vendetta
steel meadow
it wont be 60 seconds
prime rune
worst scenario its 70 sec
buoyant gyro
Well, I can't speak for others but I think from Fuu and my perspective, it's just only asking for details and a more specific outline of the expectations. Like Fuu can bash at the APL blindly a few times, but then if he just gets feedback "that isn't right" over and over. There just needs to be a better description of what the goal is. That's all.
I mean clearly Fuu is willing to look into it, he's already spent an hour on it 😛
nova nexus
and honestly I don’t know how this conversation is had with LULz GB getting injected (or was). maybe we’ve move on. just trying to get everyone to play nice
lapis wasp
need better storyboard sessions and vertical slicing
why is sub rogue more reliant on edge of night than assanation?
mint sequoia
it spends way more combo points and has a conduit that buffs shadow damage
wind furnace
deeper dagger also works on it
lapis wasp
oh I see so it has higher potential dmg output from edge
so naturally its potential is somewhat reliant on realizing that dmg
mint sequoia
i mean, it's not really that rng
lapis wasp
oh okay
mint sequoia
you spend a lot of combo points, there isn't a huge amount of variance
wind furnace
making sure symbols is on cd and trying to align dance seems not as efficient
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fNAvMJav7h6rqaLBiubcPT/simc
it is not guaranteed to symbols-bs with 6 stacks, but it does it quite some time
wind furnace
because rotten
no, there was no 13.8k
top sim with changes is 13.3k
with akaaris
mint sequoia
i put the resounding clarity condition from backstab onto gloomblade out of stealth
to wait for stech if about to land on the right number and not cap energy
wind furnace
oh ye
mint sequoia
and also moved gloomblade way up the stealthed priority list if pv stacks are 5+
oh, the wm ones are 13,8
i don't even know what i changed from yours in this
i didn't think anything
so idk how it gained 800 dps
wind furnace
the gloomblade win makes sense
hence we didn't put the pv optimizations for gloomblade
wind furnace
thats because the 13.3k i refer to is with rank 11 conduits
mint sequoia
but i am pretty sure i just copy pasted the exact input from one of your earlier sims to use, so idk what i'm doing to get the higher number
nova nexus
thats because the 13.3k i refer to is with rank 11 conduits
yes but zephyr just hit 13.8
wind furnace
yes, with rank 13 conduits
instead of rank 11
hmm still weird that its 13.8 instead of 13.5 or so
livid ferry
did u set conduti rank to 13
doesnt the sim automatically enhance the conduit level
from 11->13
if youre renown is high enough
wind furnace
it is a numerical value
you can either put 11 and empowerment or straight up rank 13
i did do the 2nd
ohh
ye ofc
mint sequoia
I'm like 99% sure
wind furnace
you still have the not nerfed values
wind furnace
because you have weekly instead of nightly
civic terrace
🙂
livid ferry
no
mint sequoia
on the old gloomblade
wind furnace
but you have a good point, we forgot to put some backstab optimizations to gloomblade
buoyant gyro
because you have weekly instead of nightly
Gain DPS by going back in time!
mint sequoia
is it possible to learn this power?
i want to go back and time and pick mage or warlock as my class to main
instead of rogue
buoyant gyro
livid ferry
rotten with hotfixed shit is like 13360
buoyant gyro
But yeah makes sense to support Gloomblade for the higher prio PV lines and stuff
clear zephyr
This is cast gloomblade inside dance at 6 PV?
nova nexus
i want to go back and time and pick mage or warlock as my class to main
I almost got to warrior, tank is going prot warrior next tier.
pale jetty
privated
prime rune
fuk me
lapis wasp
isn't rogue like kinda insane? its top st and overall for all 3 specs in raid right now ha
nova nexus
fuck rogue. we all hate rogue.
pale jetty
now do 6 mins with akaari and normal talents
prime rune
yeap now i will
pale jetty
because that's the only way to have that log mean anything unfortunately
prime rune
yeap i already did it, but again i will now
pale jetty
but also
i will point out
symbols was held for way too long
on average you held symbols for 7-10 seconds
that's REALLY bad
in 6 mins you should have 13 casts of symbols
rather than 10
prime rune
1 min and overall is already 10k, sec i will do now with log but seems extremely weaker compare to gloom
pale jetty
yeah just log it, maybe you're misplaying it or something
prime rune
okidoki
pale jetty
because even that gloomblade log has some severe issues with SoD usage
prime rune
i had to do it that way little misaligment happen
😄 so hard to keep in line 8 sec cd with dances
prime rune
true but i take way more worth from symbol then akari, or im not?
pale jetty
nope
prime rune
lemme sim this one
pale jetty
symbols is 15% damage amp to everything for 10 seconds
you're effectively missing 30 seconds of 15% extra damage
and energy loss
also dont forget akaari puts more PV stacks in the symbols window
because you get 6 stacks within 3 strikes
i have a bit of free time rn so
i can go hit a dummy and log it
prime rune
im also infront of it, at ogrimmar but im working at the same time 😦 takes time
pale jetty
forgot to get a wa that works with ER here
prime rune
@pale jetty do u want me to stay with PV as kyrian or go for venthyr and swap PV?
pale jetty
do it as kyr
i cant log rn unfort, need to install addons for ptr and by the time i do that i'd run out of my free time
prime rune
i just did 1 but somehow log didnt work and it was like 300dps better then gloomblade, dunno really i have seen some crazy 12k 5m minute overalls but its so hard to achive most probably i do mistakes @pale jetty
neat dagger
How u feel about sub atm.? English is not my native Language, so sorry if I’m misunderstanding but I feel like u are not happy with it.
I mean in general
For me is m+ the only relevant thing with sub, I guess it will still be strong but if I read your messages u guys and girls are not that happy
mint sequoia
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oWmEwti7Z8vSBMNE7sGcsb Does this better use symbols @mellow urchin
or did i misunderstand what you wanted the sim to do completely
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iEmGWdm3Y96W4V3Es4Mde6 also with gloomblade i got the gains to be even bigger, 2.5% up from 1.9% earlier
feral schooner
So gloomblade 9.2?
buoyant gyro
i made the talent a lot better, but it's still really bad
I sent a few observations over to Fuu before he logged as well, got up to around 12680ish on those same profiles
But it's still 3.3% behind WM with the same gear/setup
So idk, still got a long way to go lol
mint sequoia
yea, i mean the talent is just bad, i don't think there's anything that could possibly be done to get it anywhere close to competitive
i wasn't really trying to optimize for gloomblade anyway, just trying to get the rotten to do as much damage with backstab as possible while losing as few casts as possible
and then i threw the same conditions onto gloomblade to see what happened
buoyant gyro
Yeah that makes sense. Was looking over the diffs Fuu was testing
Doesn't hurt to throw improvements in
mint sequoia
yea, someone somewhere thinks gloomblade is the coolest talent ever
and will appreciate the upgrades
buoyant gyro
WM gains a fair bit from any The Rotten upgrades anyway since they made that change that WM procs still benefit from the buff
mint sequoia
Yea, but as far as i can tell there's not any potential in trying to game the rotten onto pv backstabs
even when i got the buff to go onto a high stack backstab every single time
and only lower the symbols interval to 32 seconds
it's still 200 dps down
compared to just playing normally
nova nexus
out of curiosity what did the dps graph look like with the rotten and the changes vs akaari. mostly wondering if there were more consistent busts windows
mint sequoia
Top one is "gaming" the rotten to buff huge backstabs every time, bottom one is rotten when playing normally
And this is akaaris
nova nexus
this was kyrian right?
mint sequoia
yea all kyrian
nova nexus
does venthyr benefit from what you sorted out or did fuu have that done already
mint sequoia
i didn't do any tests on a venthyr profile because my understanding is that gaming around the rotten as venthyr is garbage
nova nexus
got it
quartz idol
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oWmEwti7Z8vSBMNE7sGcsb Does this better u...
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jND1frG5CRmkLLJMUhMdrJ
this is what I have for WM
still dog
@buoyant gyro also maybe add the backstab imporvements to gloomblade as well?
mint sequoia
and all you changed was make it hold symbols for dance charges?
quartz idol
mainly yes, but also I tried making some shadow dance usage improvements to 'try' to better line it up with dance->symbols->stab->dance
most likely could be improved, but I don't see it gaining much more
mint sequoia
did we ever figure out why it's getting more akaari's procs than shadowstrikes cast?
buoyant gyro
<@!116203458129821697> also maybe add the backstab imporvements to gloomblade as...
Yeah that was part of it
quartz idol
oh was it added already?
buoyant gyro
Fuu is working on it but the versions I was testing with had it yeah
plucky storm
Any gloombladers?
9.2 Feedback and Discussion
I just capitalized it
Because it was bothering me
And I have the power
lapis wasp
so looking at your google doc of assa sims - am i reading it correctly to take away that the best sub sims are roughly 1kish ahead of the best assa sims (both 4 piece double leggo)
pulsar axle
so looking at your google doc of assa sims - am i reading it correctly to take a...
I believe the spirit is that there's no significant reason to compare specs based on current numbers.
lapis wasp
why would you not want to compare them?
not challenging you just genuinely curious why you wouldn't want to
plucky storm
cause they're not comparable atm with tuning and bugs and the differences in profiles, the apls getting updated
lapis wasp
got it - but as far as just reading the information that currently is publicized, they are about 1k apart?
lapis wasp
mainly tryna make sure im not misreading the info
plucky storm
but that 1k number is a huge grain of salt
coarse quiver
we still have 1 or 2 ptr cycles of tuning to be seen, AS WELL AS heroic tuning
lapis wasp
yeah for sure I understand that - will check back continually as things evolve
coarse quiver
and heroic tunning historically can be extremely volotile
lapis wasp
thats why i wanted to make sure i was reading things correctly so that in the future i can interpret without having to ask
coarse quiver
could see 2 classes get 5% buffs or see 9 classes get nerfed 🤷
plucky storm
thats why i wanted to make sure i was reading things correctly so that in the fu...
big knowledge gains
love to see it
feral schooner
<@!141252922649477120>
What rating would you need to get a normal tier set quality item in the pvp vault slots?
feral schooner
U sure?
feral schooner
I ain't thar great in Arena I just wanna get the chance on a tier piece
hoary zephyr
a +15 m+ is 278
feral schooner
Yeah 15 easy timed even 20 with the new affix on ptr already that's a 23/24 on live
That came across wired sorry. Just wanna do the first weeks pvp to get the vault slots for pvp.
hoary zephyr
but I think it will be easier to get a tier set from PvP
because M+ loot pool is big
PvP is not
feral schooner
Would you recommend doing rbg or Arena?
hoary zephyr
rbg for honor, arena for rating
autumn jungle
bg rating farm is slower
hoary zephyr
No RBG is for honor
which counts in your vault slots
so technically if you wanna get 3 vault slots fast for PvP
you do RBGs
feral schooner
Oh so rating you get from Arena which I did some to like 1.6k (again pvp noob) and to get the honor fast do rbg correct? And ty
hoary zephyr
yes sir
hoary zephyr
I have opened 25 vaults, 15 of them had tier (some had both slots) and 10 were non tier
unkempt peak
That's pretty hot, I wonder if they have goofy rates on the PTR right now, or if that is intentional? Maybes me thing what the great vault is gonna look like once you already have all your tier pieces?
feral schooner
I think its fair tbh. If your main playstyle is to pvp it should reward in the vault more tier set pieces. The vault has 9 pve slots and 3 pvp.
wind furnace
it's still 200 dps down
i got it to -0.3% earlier, but it didn't get it every symbols cycle
it was still +-0 with allowing some symbols delay what seems cosidering the diffrence potentially a better approach
crisp lichen
wind furnace
got it - but as far as just reading the information that currently is publicized...
sub is stronger because it benefits from sylvanas dagger more
hoary zephyr
I think its fair tbh. If your main playstyle is to pvp it should reward in the v...
6* PvE slots
hoary zephyr
That's pretty hot, I wonder if they have goofy rates on the PTR right now, or if...
well
PvP gear pool is less
thus higher chance
vs M+
wind furnace
<@!116203458129821697> also maybe add the backstab imporvements to gloomblade as...
the change is very low in impact tho, ~.1% dps
hoary zephyr
also keep in mind, you can upgrade the PvP tier set gear with honor
hoary zephyr
the change is very low in impact tho, ~.1% dps
AYO UPGRADE IS UPGRADE LETS GO BABY
WOOOT
feral schooner
6* PvE slots
true yes xD
wind furnace
having it optimized in the apl does still seem like a good thing
even if its "why would i play it"
plucky storm
even if its "why would i play it"
Because I was on a dummy on ptr and it did “SUBTLETY ROGUE INSANE DPS HIDDEN TALENT BUILD?!? JPC SHOCKED AND BLINDSIDED?!? WOW HIGHLIGHTS”
delicate osprey
more like for pvp people likely
as you can have 40 secs cd blades there
so making it each go is quite impressive
wind furnace
i mean, we found some improvements for gloomblade due to it
so i would say even if the incentive was different, it was beneficial
delicate osprey
yea you can kidney er evis SoD backstab(gloomblade) evis strike evis
delicate osprey
i quite like that leggo
for sub sniping on mobs to get cdr+cdr power may have some interesting things
but having vendetta going meh is kinda oof
vs assa that get blades+ar
coarse quiver
how far ahead is Stilletto compared to PE in 9.2?
delicate osprey
we may play pv funnily enough for more funnel+st
instead of stiletto or PE
i still really like stiletto tho
wind furnace
I also see the .3% dps gain annsie saw with slightly different conditions:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2sSfNeTYknT3g2uQMHMWhw/simc
(rotten + wm)
coarse quiver
for triple potency though
coarse quiver
kyrian
delicate osprey
kyrian m+ eugh
delicate osprey
oh general st nf is kinda oof
wind furnace
I haven't compared conduits in detail
delicate osprey
if we can find some % here or there for nf it would be kind of cool
wind furnace
PE did sim for higher overall dps in dungeon slice compared to PV
coarse quiver
i am confused
coarse quiver
wowza
south osprey
No more lashing?
wind furnace
thats kyrian
south osprey
Oh
winged fiber
no pv?
wind furnace
also i did sim with akaaris, what isn't what we take in m+ tho
finality is just a lot better
unsure if PV ends up beating PE on venthyr, i don't expect it to
venthyr with finality:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5ppV18WNVyrS2xuyw7ZW15
kyrian for comparison with finality:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2aUQiYfdoGcRoCXbpnd4Qk
damage profiles, kyrian top slice sim:
venthyr:
dishonest with venthyr as it uses shadow focus.
fixed it:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qpZwsR2aFwbqVD6Mm8BLAm
venthyr NS damage profile:
civic terrace
Seems to be largely the same except for that little hill at the start
wind furnace
the first part of the fight is the single target part, but yes it is very similar
kyrian has a more consistent damage profile while venthyr has more variation
mellow urchin
I really hope they fix the bugs with NS
coarse quiver
the bp bug?
quartz idol
the change is very low in impact tho, ~.1% dps
hm, thats weird, I would've assumed its exactly the same since it replaces backstab
feral schooner
Aint nobody playing NS if thats in the game
Is blizzard aware of this bug? Is it worth pinging a dev for it?
nova nexus
we don’t ping the dev. it’s been reported. it’s also listed in the simc bug tracker. we are at their mercy
wind furnace
hm, thats weird, I would've assumed its exactly the same since it replaces backs...
it probably has a diminishing return due to other optimizations.
i didn't compare my .3% rotten changes exactly to yours but i saw you did use a time condition
quartz idol
i didn't compare my .3% rotten changes exactly to yours but i saw you did use a ...
I think maybe we are talking about different things, I was talking about the backstab optimizations to wait for animacharged to be put for gloomblade as well since it should be the same logic
wind furnace
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jND1frG5CRmkLLJMUhMdrJ
this is what I hav...
^ i mean this one
but the .1% i mentioned was for the backstab condition
basically:
- the backstab condition on gloomblade only makes .1% difference in output what is fairly low
- the .3% apl change for rotten from you uses slightly diffrent apl modifications to the one i linked above but gets similar results
(reference: #916284169057878037 message) - there is an additional ~2.5% damage win for gloomblade changes
quartz idol
I see
barren forge
with BS during dance lookin to be a thing. has anyone made a macro or is it possible to make one like nostealth-stab, stealth/dance-strike, modifier-stab?
ive got plenty of open keybinds. just wondering if its possible/worth it
barren forge
ah yeah could to that.
just woke up and 100% didnt think about putting it with something other then strike
wind furnace
you can't do it on strike because you cant put in conditions in macros like buffs
barren forge
okay makes sense. ty!
south osprey
you could macro backstab to echoing/flag
That needs conditions because both are on the gcd
south osprey
Yeah
Since my bs becomes sap in stealth i just keep bs if we will use bs in dance while in the raid
wind furnace
tbh that even solves some issues
like you would never use er or flag in dance
🤔 maybe you would in the opener
livid ferry
With PV we just stab on 6 stacks right?
wind furnace
pmuch stab on 6 between dance charges
with akaaris you can sometimes also stab during dance
livid ferry
Alright got it ty
wanton comet
Because I was on a dummy on ptr and it did “SUBTLETY ROGUE INSANE DPS HIDDEN TAL...
ok wait, i want to do 150k dps too
is that because of the dummy?
plucky storm
yeh pvp dummy
wanton comet
I mean he is on Raiders Dummy but like from an old content. Is that a level thing?
barren forge
🤔 maybe you would in the opener
I think only opener that uses a cov ability is flag ?
Kyr is symbols/er then dance?
wind furnace
yes you don't use er in dance
barren forge
Okay. So macroing stab would only really work with er, not flag? Could always put it with rupture
barren forge
True
wind furnace
maybe there is a sequence that peforms equal, would need to test apl changes a bit
keen ravine
so I'm sure this has been covered already but I can't seem to find it, how much of a nerf was the recent change to the set
wind furnace
tier set went down from 25% dps increase to ~17-18%
so relatively spoken roughly a 25% nerf
keen ravine
hmm I'm sure we are still going to be rocking it maybe lol
wind furnace
it is still rly strong
potent vault
hmm I'm sure we are still going to be rocking it maybe lol
Well given it is our tier set
I’d assume yes we would use it
keen ravine
Mean it's possible they over nerf it like blizzard has a tendency to do and we just don't use the set lol
wind furnace
its fairly impossible to nerf it to the point you would not run it
the reason you could "not run" a tier set in the past was that you had old tier sets on a reasonable itemlevel
but even if they nerf the proc chance even further, it still would end up as a noticable damage gain
and tho it would feel terrible to play, no alternative item would be at a power level to beat it
keen ravine
and to be fair my orginal comment about us rocking it wasn't rocking the tier set it was rocking the sims
nova nexus
rocking sims. always relevant.
steep raft
did they fix all the bugs of the tier set ?
keen ravine
ya I love sub, it's probably my favorite spec/class to play
wind furnace
did they fix all the bugs of the tier set ?
yes, some need a bit more testing but seems so
potent vault
Mean it's possible they over nerf it like blizzard has a tendency to do and we j...
?
steep raft
nice
wind furnace
he probably think about atbt set
potent vault
Mean it's possible they over nerf it like blizzard has a tendency to do and we j...
we literally have no other option to use
keen ravine
rocking sims. always relevant.
although rocking sims may not be relevant (assuming you were being sarcastic) it's usually the difference in my guild killing bosses or not lol it's what I get for not being in a hardcore guild
hazy girder
sims are even less relevant to your guild if the implication is that people aren't playing properly
and by the time you reach a boss you will probably be stronger than it was tuned for originally
wind furnace
strengh of a spec/class is always relevant.
if you peform bad lets say 10% worse, doing more baseline damage means you potentially peform about equal to what you would on a worse spec
that was the case in the past, and there are many memes when a 90%tile or higher was below a blue/green parse of a other class
ofc. there is always the argument of fun, but output is always related to fun this is also why people gravitate a lot more towards assassination than subtlety when both are close
being more error prone, having a straight forward rotation or having a high baseline output are some factors that are important
robust lotus
@wind furnace what is the difference in dps between old set values with bugged interactions compared to current set values with bugfixed interactions
wind furnace
i don't know
robust lotus
that will show the actual loss
wind furnace
akaari proccing from 4p is not worth that much 0.3% or sth
shadowblades overwriting instead of extending is a 0% dps change
FW from 4p proc is a 0% dps change on single target
symbols/premed working/not working on 4p procs is also rather irrelevant
4p proccing 2p is probably the biggest dps change, but given that the proc chance is fairly low it probably isn't a huge dps gain too
(both fw from 4p and 4p on 2p is clearly better in multi target)
ER working correctly with the 4p is probably the biggest change but likely needs more testing to confirm
wind furnace
So overall, i would say the nerf was a nerf but only for single target
unkempt peak
Do you think the set is still in a position of being 'too strong for a tier set'? Think it could maybe see another nerf?
nova nexus
although rocking sims may not be relevant (assuming you were being sarcastic) it...
rocking sims are only as good as the work put into them, and if you think other classes put in the effort that rogues do that is a misguided assumption
keen ravine
rocking sims are only as good as the work put into them, and if you think other ...
Well I know for a fact that people I run with don't put near the work into their char as I put into mine. but I figure thats the difference. I've played every class and spec and Sub rogue is by far my favor
nova nexus
what does that have to do with anything regarding sims and the work other clsss discords put into the apl work
keen ravine
what does that have to do with anything regarding sims and the work other clsss ...
Oh I thought u were referring to people playing the classes in general my bad lol. Ya this is definitely the most hopeful discord I've been in
wind furnace
Do you think the set is still in a position of being 'too strong for a tier set'...
thats incredibly hard to say, we don't know what power level rogue should end up
and esp. for subtlety the 2nd legendary is fairly weak what could justify a stronger tier set
also one big question is still the sylvanas dagger as it is what allows subtlety to be on this high power level
subtlety is seemingly sim wise one of the few specs that hit 13k atm in profiles used for external estimates
and 1k of that is only due to sylvanas daggers
it seems like the majority of specs is in the 11-12k range, what sets enh and subtlety quite noticable ahead
but there is the question about the gear profiles, apl and other things
lapis wasp
as long as I have a dance for every symbols, is there any benefit/loss to holding/spending charges
or are you fine to spend however you want as long as it doesn't delay a symbols cast
astral dragon
it seems like the majority of specs is in the 11-12k range, what sets enh and su...
what if they gave sub a windfury totem
hidden magnet
How good are sylv daggers looking 9.2?
hoary zephyr
very good
mythic double sylv > double 285ilvl
only upgrade is a 285ilvl MH and Mythic Sylv dagger OH
but 285ilvl is gonna take a while to upgrade and its gonna be rng since its a drop
hidden magnet
yikes
unkempt peak
We still haven't seen the other agi dagger they said was being added to the second to last boss right?
Maybe that has a cool effect
hidden magnet
so basically HC will be on par with the HC daggers from second to last?
unkempt peak
I mean unless I just missed it, I saw that said they were adding another agi dagger to the loot table from Rygelon? I hope it's not just another stat dagger but it would be weird to announce more loot for it just to be the same thing
ocean ridge
Still looking like march will be launch
unkempt peak
That's the new dagger btw didn't realize it's up on ptr
coarse quiver
intellect
coarse quiver
not us
unkempt peak
Big sad the effect didn't look half bad
autumn jungle
spriests?
unkempt peak
So maybe rogue is just another stat dagger... Big sad
lapis wasp
the sims that currently exist for 4pc+double leggo.... i assume those include sylv dagger (which is obv a ton of borrowed power that other classes dont have access to)
is there any thought as to when later-tier sims might come out
that will show us without sylv dagger
unkempt peak
:(
autumn jungle
New dagger is Haste Vers
you mean the one that drops from one of the last 3 bosses?
285 ilvl or whatever
hoary zephyr
you mean the one that drops from one of the last 3 bosses?
Ye
Rygelon drops an agi dagger
That’s what was added
And someone found the dagger when it was datamined
Haste vers and has the same appearance as the int dagger
autumn jungle
at least more vers than haste
keen ravine
Looking like it'll be at least one sylv dagger moving forward
unkempt peak
Www haste
Eww* what do I look like? Assassination?
Yeah 100% sylv in OH unless they nerf the effect of the dagger like they did with divers folly in 8.2 to 8.3
keen ravine
with out checking the sims and what not and barring any nerfs I'm guessing it might take like a heroic dagger to replace the sylv daggers anyway
dire perch
in this raid a lot a haste gear 
coarse quiver
with out checking the sims and what not and barring any nerfs I'm guessing it mi...
you shouyld probably look at sims then 🙂
mint sequoia
Yeah 100% sylv in OH unless they nerf the effect of the dagger like they did wit...
what did they change about diver's folly?
the only chage i recall was the rextroy one
manic mesa
they didnt change anything about divers folly
it was very much used until corruptions got really crazy towards then end
edge aint getting nerfed lol
shut valve
It already got nerfed 
coarse quiver
did it?
coarse quiver
oooh lmfaooo yeah i forgor 💀
pulsar axle
The bug I assume
ok, i know it is too late, but cannot help: what was the bug?
plucky storm
Sac/KA giving instant 4 stacks
shut valve
Because yoppa is a bug abusing external enjoyer
And proud of it
pulsar axle
Sac/KA giving instant 4 stacks
despite of health percentage?
feral schooner
Tbh blizzard dropped the ball with the dagger and bow. Both could have been nice story quests like with other weapons like the fangs from cata.
wind furnace
mythic double sylv > double 285ilvl
thats not correct, you would replace your mainhand for a mythic itemlevel dagger
wind furnace
what if they gave sub a windfury totem
poor enhance, even less reason to bring them
+1 mapko, i think the daggers could have had legendary status at minimum given the impact
i am unsure how much the impact of the legendary bow is for hunters, but it might be even lower than double sylvanas dagger
hoary zephyr
thats not correct, you would replace your mainhand for a mythic itemlevel dagger
I said that tho?
coarse quiver
you said double mythic sylv
wind furnace
oh, ye you did state mythic sylvanas > double 285
hoary zephyr
wind furnace
ye
its just a detail that gets lost that mythic dagger is still a noticable benefit in mainhand
delicate osprey
you will use double mythic sylvanas for progress
comparing to a mythic rygelon dagger is baiting
it is like saying yea you could use an ak47 in medieval fights when everyone was running around on horses
wind furnace
you pmuch won't switch away forever unless you get lucky with dagger drops
delicate osprey
i guess when we have 1 year of patch it makes sense but it is funny ahaha
and you won't even switch main hand on many bosses because of execute power maybe even XD
wind furnace
on progression possibly, but still unsure
but if there is a boss with strong/long execute phase it might be a thing
delicate osprey
i mean taking into account 1 dagger on off hand is for sure
the main hand only needs to do 5% or more, more or less
as many bosses the first 100 to 75 and 75 to 50 is kind of meh
mellow urchin
It took some ppl months to get their sylv dagger, even in heroic version. And here we are talking about how we gonna use the 285 dagger poggies
You might have quit the game before you get that dagger just saying
wind furnace
you mean, how we won't touch any dagger before mythic
indeed sounds very exciting for the player
mellow urchin
Thats the case
Almost every single raid
You have to luck out on a dagger in heroic raid which isnt easy because you are basically the only guy capable of looting it
So ye, playing with last tiers dagger in mythic prog is very common
wind furnace
it is convenient for thos who actively played in 9.1.5
for people who still fish for the dagger or need to re-visit old content it might be annoying
delicate osprey
yep that is why it is kind of sad what happened
wind furnace
my point is that having all weapon loot irrelevant does introduce some quirks
delicate osprey
if anyone wants to reroll rogue they need to reclear last tier's content
wind furnace
you get a loot drop what is already something that happens very infrequently
delicate osprey
i dont mind but many people are oofed by it
we will sell sylv until the end of the expansion anyway
wind furnace
and now you have a set of items you basically can just throw away that are new/exciting
delicate osprey
chances are many of those will go desperate rogue bois
wind furnace
my point is not that its inherently bad
as rogue seems atm to be balanced around not having the dagger
if balancing is happening and rogue gets nerfed due to that, it becomes very questionable
mellow urchin
Yea ofc its bad to only be a good spec because of an item. But that was the case for fire mage in all of 8.3 as well
Its not exactly a new thing
Ppl still played fire mage without all the infinity stones
The daggers are probably getting a decently sized nerf which might as well be a nerf to sub directly
wind furnace
yes but 8.3 is equivalent to 9.1 in that example
mellow urchin
How?
wind furnace
was the item they played a 10% damage gain that transitioned over from 8.2 to 8.3?
or a item in 8.3
mellow urchin
Idk how big font was for them, but probably not 10%
More like 5-6%
Azshara also had a special staff
wind furnace
so it would be equal to what would happen if they nerf sylvanas dagger by 50%?
mellow urchin
No its just an example fuu, not a 1 to 1 comparison
They also had to do pvp and spam m+ to get the wrists
They had a lot of broken shit to collect
Also needed to do the questing grind in nazjatar for the lucid essence
wind furnace
how did blizz balance the spec, did they end up just straight out doing 10% more baseline than others?
mellow urchin
And azshara didnt have a boss skip, so you had to clear the entire raid to kill her
Sylv requires you to kill 3 bosses
mellow urchin
how did blizz balance the spec, did they end up just straight out doing 10% more...
Yes
Fire mage was broken in 8.3
Font was just 1 of the infinity stones
2400 pvp trinket, lucid rank 3, high rolled bracers from mechagon, staff from azshara, font from azshara
You needed all of that to compete
wind furnace
and people had all of that in the race?
mellow urchin
Yes
mellow urchin
Its the game
Its not logical
Starting a fire mage was fucking pain in 8.3
That was just the beginning of the patch, later on you needed mastery corruption on every piece which also prob took a month to farm
I bet you most of the fire mages just said fuck it and accepted their fate
Which is prob what will happen with rogues and the sylv dagger
Either you reroll or you accept that you will never compete, thats how it is sometimes
wind furnace
i think i am of a different opinion on this, but i agree that flaws can just be accepted
mellow urchin
I think the dagger has to be nerfed to be very shit
For us to not use it
And i dunno if they are willing to nerf it by like 80%
wind furnace
assassination probably drops it earlier
mellow urchin
Yea ofc
wind furnace
it just outlaw/subtlety that benefits this much
mellow urchin
They do it even without a nerf
wind furnace
they still keep it in offhand for a while, but mainhand is a earlier replacement
mellow urchin
Also nobody cares about offhand daggers
wind furnace
i can do some simulations on it in the comming days if there is interesst
mellow urchin
I played a m0 dagger in offhand when we killed mythic denathrius
Literally doesnt matter
wind furnace
offhand slot value is def. low
also i only mention the dagger as it is one point of the 9.2 power budget that stands out early
mellow urchin
Which is a good thing cus weapons are very hard to get
pulsar axle
for some reason i think the dagger thing is somehow not too bad
wind furnace
it isn't but there is still daily questions about it
pulsar axle
Since you're going to change your main hand anyway. looting two daggers and feeling bad means an even smaller chance event.
wind furnace
offhand is probably that bad because 1h classes would else have a big advantage
mellow urchin
You have to class stack rogues to get any, and nobody does that
wind furnace
Since you're going to change your main hand anyway. looting two daggers and feel...
you won't change your mainhand tho up till end of mythic
pulsar axle
oh, right, 285 from the 10#
nova nexus
Since you're going to change your main hand anyway. looting two daggers and feel...
looting two daggers…. 
nova nexus
or you get dagger and tier in vault
mellow urchin
Is a dream
nova nexus
and never seee dagger again
wind furnace
Let alone 285
don't worry, we don't know how long the tier lasts
wind furnace
so potential that you have a ton of time to get your daggers
mellow urchin
This tier has been 8 months and i have seen 1 nerzhul weapon after 25 kills on mythic
wind furnace
but you got sylvanas daggers
mellow urchin
Thinking ur gonna have a bunch of daggers to choose from is just ridiculous
wind furnace
^^
pulsar axle
but i think i still get some point there; before you thinking feeling bad for a 278 dagger loot, at least we have something working now; however, the bad influence comes for new rogues. and ...
wind furnace
yes, and it makes sense why they are hard to loot
mellow urchin
I would argue sylvanas daggers actually have a higher drop chance than nerzhul one
nova nexus
i don’t get why people are tilted by it. is it nice? yes. will it stop prog. nope
play better
wind furnace
rogue is the only class to loot daggers and only 2 specs have them on the loot table
wind furnace
a lot of ppl play for wcl ratings
mellow urchin
Not on prog
nova nexus
not on prog fuu
wind furnace
not having sylvanas was a big fuck you in your face if you did
mellow urchin
If they do they belong in the mud anyway
nova nexus
progression gearing is all that is relevant
mellow urchin
Why are we talking about farm logs as something relevant
wind furnace
you need to compete with potential others who had more loot luck
nova nexus
you can’t parse without a kill
wind furnace
and you could end up in a significant deficit
nova nexus
not having corruption was likely bigger than not walking into the new raid without an offhand dagger
mellow urchin
Nobody really cares about farm logs, we are talking about progression
wind furnace
i mean
would you be in progression if you had no sylvanas dagger
and other rogue had 2 mythic ones?
nova nexus
would you be in progression if you had no sylvanas dagger
yes
wind furnace
so your raid would happily take a dissadvantage in terms of 10% dps just for the player?
mellow urchin
that scenario happened on our prog
nova nexus
was my entire fucking tier. lol
pulsar axle
but is 278mh going to be close?
mellow urchin
2%?
nova nexus
I out dps’s a rogue with 2 EoN with my one. they daggers aren’t a guarantee of chart topping.
mellow urchin
People screaming about not having the daggers are probably just bad players who dont know what they talk about
wind furnace
but is 278mh going to be close?
yes
nova nexus
my rage was with how much I was running stuff.
that felt bad. not the missing dagger.
pulsar axle
2% is quite high...
mellow urchin
No its not
mellow urchin
Its not high
pulsar axle
well , i think it's ok, but maybe other ppl think it is high
mellow urchin
gems are less impactful than dagger
Because they lock down 3 slots on every single spec in the game
wind furnace
but in contrast did apply to everyone
nova nexus
everyone gonna just play assa anyways cuss it’s better for downtime
wind furnace
XD
mellow urchin
Cus it has no rng this time
wind furnace
^
mellow urchin
And it might be true this time
nova nexus
Cus it has no rng this time
yeah but they won’t say that
wind furnace
all i am saying is that i can understand why people come in here frequently and asking if the dagger gets nerfed
mellow urchin
Ppl play assa and compete with sub even now, despite having 700 less sim dps, makes you wonder
nova nexus
i’m just wondering if there will be any fights that actually make doordash better if your spec can go venthyr
wind furnace
regardless of if its a issue or not
for assassination vs. subtlety
i think we are lucky as without dagger assassination would look a lot more appealing
mellow urchin
If daggers are removed tomorrow
Sub players should look elsewhere
And reroll of this shit
(To assa)
nova nexus
and 
for 4pc asap
wind furnace
i mean, it probably is to late for tier set rework
nova nexus
ofc it is
mellow urchin
It has been too late for a few weeks
nova nexus
now you’re just hoping to not get shadow priested
mellow urchin
When scarizard said he didnt have time to rework the frost dk set
Thats when it was too late
And that was like a month ago
wind furnace
i had a discussion some days ago
nova nexus
like them looking a deathspike would be bug fixing and or making it boring so it works
wind furnace
and the person i talked to had the idea to proc 4p during shb only but 100% proc chance
mellow urchin
Broken
wind furnace
(ofc with reduced damage)
wind furnace
it def. sounds strong
but it would be more controllable
without changing how the set works funermentally
mellow urchin
more burst as well
i like the idea
but would prob have to rework the 2p or nerf it
have you tried simming night fae, niya with finality as the 2nd legendary
i feel like that could be decently bursty
wind furnace
giveme a sec, thats easy
pulsar axle
3#and 4# have two
pulsar axle
1# has 1 or none
nova nexus
ding. so yeah more opportunity in playing better than a bump in dps from a dagger.
yes it sucks not to have the cool toys, play better
as Push said we’re no where near Fire Mages
pulsar axle
as Push said we’re no where near Fire Mages
where does that come from?
mellow urchin
this is with resounding?
nova nexus
where does that come from?
we need something more juicey to talk about. the rotten was a nice distraction. now it’s on repeat EoN tears
delicate osprey
i do think nf has promise as it has the biggest burst but looking at bosses no real ones to look for
pulsar axle
how much funnelling power sub has compared to norm dps in situation like Anduin p2
delicate osprey
maybe only for anduin
mellow urchin
how did it lose dmg