Why not just
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
mellow urchin
balance issues
nova nexus
because you need to feel the power gain
mellow urchin
just a guess, but its probably because of tuning
pale jetty
How so
mellow urchin
well the 2nd legendary values are all over the place
and there has been almost 0 legendary tuning
nova nexus
balance issues
nah. they could balance out the door and adjust as needed. now they are just tossing a huge spike 3 weeks in instead of 1 week in.
pale jetty
I mean if they just put the double legos in and let people test with it
It would be easy to tune no?
nova nexus
if they can’t balance for week one that means they can’t balance for week 12
mellow urchin
but they didnt
mellow urchin
idk
pale jetty
So now we suffer another mistuned tier
pale jetty
They def made it seem intentional this time
mellow urchin
not direct on bosses
nova nexus
it’s not new
mellow urchin
well
nova nexus
nzoth they did it perfectly with
pale jetty
I doubt they intended it this tier
mellow urchin
but i feel like thats pretty new
nova nexus
the extra corruption was the slow creep
mellow urchin
they are not stupid, they knew how big the dom set rankings were for dps
and still did it
so i assume it was deliberate
mellow urchin
cus they want more ppl to do mythic
and they probably achieved that relatively speaking
lots of ppl getting their first CE this tier
even tho the game has less players
pale jetty
I mean yeah a lot more people got CE because every boss dies to skull bashing
nova nexus
how many months are we into this tier?
nova nexus
vs old ce timeframe that seems like a big reason
crisp lichen
no shot its only 8 months
crisp lichen
i have like 60 mythic sylv kills
nova nexus
but on the same token, keeping a mythic raid team going 8 months on progress, fml
wind furnace
tbh the current tier was perceived very well
stark sierra
Maybe 9.2.5 comes with a mini raid like CoS/ToV
wind furnace
so i assume having similar tuning wouldn't be bad
mellow urchin
tbh the current tier was perceived very well
no it wasnt
crisp lichen
across multiple chars push
mellow urchin
at least not among the group of rankings i am around
nova nexus
perception is it’s a joke of a raid
wind furnace
ofc top rankings didn't like it
wind furnace
but a lot of guilds in lower ranks did
mellow urchin
we are just pointless bricks
crisp lichen
Maybe 9.2.5 comes with a mini raid like CoS/ToV
no
mellow urchin
well they knew it was a problem per the morgan day interview
nova nexus
but a lot of guilds in lower ranks did
those guilds haven’t experienced 11 minutes of shit to prog for 30-40 seconds in p3
pale jetty
I absolutely fucking despise how hard you have to hold dps these tiers
mellow urchin
so they have hopefully fixed it
but i still think for us that kill the bosses weeks after wf
its gonna be a similar case of
dont have to min/max dps
perhaps not hold dps
but it removes the fun from it from a dps pov, i can play like shit and theres simply no way we hit enrage timers
pale jetty
I mean look at the tons of sylv kills in bottom ranked guilds
mellow urchin
kinda depressing honestly, but hte raid isnt made for us
pale jetty
Legit fucking 6-7k dps across the board this late and boss flops
mellow urchin
ye
even when we progged sylvanas, p3 was a "stay alive and boss dies"
no need to min/max dps
just dont die
pale jetty
I mean yeah it got to the point where prog kills were a whole minute or two before her enrage
mellow urchin
i am glad more ppl get to do mythic tho, perhaps it grows the scene. So in a macro sense i think its good for the game even though its trash for our enjoyment
pale jetty
If they want mythic to be more accessible they can just add a proper difficulty ladder in the raid
Where first few are easy and it gradually gets harder to where not just anyone can skull bash the end bosses
I mean KT was like... A mistake
mellow urchin
Where first few are easy and it gradually gets harder to where not just anyone c...
thats what it is
lower tier guilds will still wipe a lot on painsmith, fatescribe and KT
even seen 40+ wipes on guardian
crisp lichen
not sure what ure expecting @pale jetty thats just how mmos work to some degree
power creep from gear and nerfs to bosses
so eventually stuff will just fall over
sure some bosses have been a letdown this tier
mellow urchin
being in a guild like mine its a race to try reach the hard content before we outgear it or they nerf the bosses
and it came way too early this tier
cus of dom sets
pale jetty
not sure what ure expecting <@!166309198966161408> thats just how mmos work to s...
To some degree is important
This tier went way beyond that
I know people who keyboard turn that have sylv killed
mellow urchin
one of our best players was clicking his spells until like last year
doesnt say much about how good you are at hte game tbh
keyboard turning as a BM hunter and you can still do good
crisp lichen
I mean the power creep this tier is definitely very high
pale jetty
Push this wasn't one of those cases
Yes it is, which is why I hope it's not the same next tier
crisp lichen
especially when sylv wasnt really mechanically hard and more a case of dps balancing
pale jetty
If this is their strategy to make mythic more accessible, it's not a great one
mellow urchin
all comes down to how much % dps to the raid it is to get 2nd legendary on everyone
some get 10%+
some get 1%
some get 5%
perhaps the median will be 5%?
thats a lot
wind furnace
you can have a bad ui setup and play at the highest level
pale jetty
Ui is different
wind furnace
or keyboard turn/click
wind furnace
2nd legendary is even for subtlety 5% at least
hoary zephyr
Kinda like sens/dpi in an fps game
pale jetty
I mean warrior for example is going to gain a fuckton from double lego
mellow urchin
ye but our 2 legendaries are together probably lower than most others even tho they have 1% on their 2nd legedary
pale jetty
Their cov Legos are insane and they have really strong spec legos
pale jetty
Yeah nf mage Lego is fucking weird lol
mellow urchin
boomies will have insane gains i think
wind furnace
one thing that is interesting for me is
pale jetty
But wouldn't they go venth
crisp lichen
warlock 50 dps
pale jetty
Idek
wind furnace
if tuning will consider 4p or not
hoary zephyr
if tuning will consider 4p or not
Well iirc they are testing the last 3 bosses with everything on
mellow urchin
i dont know a whole lot about boomies
hoary zephyr
2L+4p
crisp lichen
internal testing team killed kj mythic pre pre nerf back then
mellow urchin
ye except they could start the fight in last phase with all cds up
crisp lichen
they are gods among gamers
mellow urchin
thats such a weird thing, testing each phase separately
ofc its gonna be different when the fight is 11+ mins total
pale jetty
Tbh idk jack shit about the next tier I didn't bother reading or testing anything
All I know is ring boss run in early then run far
mellow urchin
the sausage?
crisp lichen
oracle
pale jetty
Is it Oracle
mellow urchin
oracle?
pale jetty
It's purely ST
crisp lichen
u dont call her by her name
pale jetty
I think it's the desjugne boss or whatever
crisp lichen
its just oracle
pale jetty
Idfk what it's called
crisp lichen
no human being can pronounce her name
pale jetty
Tf idk then let me look at the boss names
But it's where the halo looking things come out
mellow urchin
i think we will just call her pölse or sausage
pale jetty
And you have to run in early to get the debuff early
crisp lichen
still oracle
pale jetty
So it runs out before next ring halo shit
mellow urchin
does she look like the dota hero
or is this related to another oracle
either way
spider boss = st
worm = st
rest
cleave or aoe
(disregarding last 3 cus know fuckall about them)
crisp lichen
architect is also 95% st
mellow urchin
is that xymox
soft stratus
lmao lithium is a great nickname for him
crisp lichen
architect
crisp lichen
ok battery boy it is
crisp lichen
mr spider
pale jetty
Isn't one of the bosses literally amogus incarnate
crisp lichen
lords of amogus
mellow urchin
never tested
pale jetty
And then algalon right
mellow urchin
algalon senior
soft stratus
legit think its a battery
when i google search "Lihuvim" it autocomplete to lithium battery
pale jetty
Bro
mellow urchin
the jailer has like 3 names
pale jetty
mellow urchin
what
mellow urchin
google is listening
soft stratus
mellow urchin
i can see this name being some devs kid
trying to say
lithium
and they just went with it
mellow urchin
i hope they made it undetectable with weakauras
hoary zephyr
Friend said that when they were testing among us fight, they are trying to find ways to make sure it’s not cheeseable by WAs
But
Someone will find a way to cheese it with WAs 
mellow urchin
yea
pale jetty
Will prob get cheesed yeah
hoary zephyr
But they are trying super super hard
mellow urchin
i mean you have to find the correct person in 30 seconds
its not a whole lotta time
hoary zephyr
Ya
crisp lichen
wont be hard
pale jetty
I wonder what clues they even give
mellow urchin
we'll see
nova nexus
EoN in vault blessings please and thank you. Make the pain stop.
feral schooner
EoN in vault blessings please and thank you. Make the pain stop.
mythic?
nova nexus
ANY. lol
turbid scaffold
Even Double HC EoN is better then 252
nova nexus
I have zero. I would be thrilled with one.
potent vault
No
wind furnace
even a normal could be relevant in offhand in the new raid
i will make a more detailed comparison when we have the new mythic dagger
steel meadow
it prob will have an effect also
soft stratus
i hope they remove the batteries from EoN, I hate needing old tier gear to be relevant
wind furnace
it does not have a effect from what we know
they could simply nerf eon or change how effects scale in offhand slot
potent vault
To scath asking for a dagger
nova nexus
Rae just knows as soon as I get it, it’ll be nerfed.
livid ferry
Buff
neat dagger
Does the t-set boni change, if u respec or do u need 12 pieces?
If u wanna play 3 specs
wind furnace
the tier set is spec independent
so if you have a rogue tier set, you have the set bonus from the spec you are in
and it changes when you change to a diffrent spec
neat dagger
Nice, thank u
nova nexus
@livid ferry good luck on DH vault
livid ferry
Prayge
clear zephyr
Hoping for some juicy PTR notes
ocean ridge
man i lost a fucking domination gem last night simming gear for here
lol
hopefully 9.2 isnt far away
wind furnace
there will be a option in simc to just dissable the gems
just like there is one for the set bonus
ocean ridge
still thinking 9.2 is first week march
clear zephyr
Thinking 2/22
hidden magnet
should be early march for mythic
wind furnace
22 feb or the week after are the most common assumptions
hoary zephyr
@wind furnace Fatescribe trinket turning into a cheat death instead of ankh next patch
Since the topic has come up, the trinket Weave of Warped Fates (Fatescribe trinket) was reworked on 9.2 PTR. Both the tooltip and effect were adjusted to highlight it (https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=186434/weave-of-warped-fates?bonus=6805) - it now functions as a true cheat death rather than an ankh. As a result, it is basically a shorter-cooldown, higher cap al'ar equivalent.
Evidently, if you're interested in content that can actually kill you, you should make sure you grab it before people stop running Sanctum of Domination. Even the normal version is significantly better than al'ar (despite being the same ilvl); the higher you get it at, the better, as both the cap and healing done by it are increased with ilvl.
Its only downside is that, unlike al'ar, there is no way to reset its CD
From dk discord
wind furnace
probably good change, to not allow it to be abused to remove encounter mechanics
signal nacelle
I was looking at the gear from the raid on ptr, the lack of crit/vers gear is really disappointing, I felt there was so much mastery gear. 2 out of 4 rings are big mastery.
signal nacelle
I really wish with the 3k m+ achievement it would allow people to upgrade m+ gear to vault level, the loot pool is gonna be even worse next season with the addition of the new dungeon, so getting that specific item from vault will be really hard
ocean ridge
oh right its random
round orbit
gear still has placeholder stats
ocean ridge
normally last tier stats on gear tend to be ideal
signal nacelle
gear still has placeholder stats
if thats true that is reassuring
south osprey
They saw that almost nobody used the pieces so they made them into the tier pieces 
ocean ridge
hopefully we will know soon anyway
harsh radish
Hey, I am mostly focused on M+ and expect to keep playing venth sub. But I also want to carry my own weight for my 'casual mythic' guild. Are there any rough estimations about the power difference between sub and sin for raid in 9.2? I don't have NightFae renown or the dusk legendary and I am trying to find out if I should farm that stuff now or if I am completely fine as venth sub in raid.
clear zephyr
There are current sims posted for both specs but I would take them with a grain of salt at this time. There is still ongoing tuning and changes on the PTR
I would check closer to launch date to get a more reliable answer
nova nexus
Hey, I am mostly focused on M+ and expect to keep playing venth sub. But I also ...
since there’s nothing much to do right now, best thing you can do is have all 4 ready. final tuning is 🔮
harsh radish
Yeah I saw the sims but some look to be older I don't expect them to be comparable right now since they don't reflect the 'promised fixes' for the tier set? I guess I hoped for some easy comparison between current 9.2 ptr sin and 9.2 sub with the 'promised fixes' for the tier set
nova nexus
older? they’re current as to what’s available on the ptr
fixes and tuning are speculation at best
renown grind to 80 and be done. it’s not that difficult especially for a rogue
buoyant gyro
Yeah I saw the sims but some look to be older I don't expect them to be comparab...
Most of the things that are mentioned as "intended" are already implemented in sims. If it turns out some of them don't make it, we'll strip it out closer to launch.
We've been implementing things in advance as Scarizard confirms what he's aiming design-wise in the blue posts and such
mellow urchin
He said 1-2 things are not fixed cus they are just how the game works
buoyant gyro
But there's always the chance not everything will interact exactly as planned, so all this stuff will get re-tested and confirmed closer to patch day
mellow urchin
But its unclear what those 1-2 things are
buoyant gyro
Yeah there's also some funny behavior for Outlaw with GSW and such too
We'll see how it shakes out
wind furnace
He said 1-2 things are not fixed cus they are just how the game works
shb refresh would be something that qualifies for it
it is usual that a new cast of the spec refreshes it instead of extends
it would not matter to much gameplay wise as you would just not use shb if it is up
livid ferry
Nah thats kinda annoying
mossy carbon
It's annoying but I think it will be less annoying if they go the expected route of nerfing duration of 2p procs, you're unlikely to have to hold it for any significant period
livid ferry
Whatever the nerfs will be will make the set feel even more garbage
Proc chance, duration
wind furnace
i wonder if assassination gets another nerf too
given that their tier set is about as strong as subtlety
mossy carbon
Duration wouldn't be too bad I think, maybe on the 4p give those shadowstrikes reduced dmg?
wind furnace
if you consider interactions with legendary powers
mellow urchin
i wonder if assassination gets another nerf too
the 4p should lose the bug
wind furnace
you mean, you want that or was there any communication?
mellow urchin
well its one of the reasons why the duskwalker interaction is nuts no
livid ferry
Duration nerf on 2p would feel just as bad as anything
You’d get like 1-2 globals in pog
wind furnace
i am unsure if its just because of it or because of vendetta getting a lot higher power budget from tier set
mellow urchin
Duration nerf on 2p would feel just as bad as anything
we get it, you dont want nerfs, its happening get over it
nova nexus
given that their tier set is about as strong as subtlety
you see my point from earlier!
livid ferry
That alts not getting any gear
wind furnace
what is relevant for me is to know the change early enough
nova nexus
new main 
wind furnace
so that i can adjust apl and double check changes
mellow urchin
wdym by early enough
wind furnace
to have a as good as possible estimate for us
nova nexus
push can truly ascend by writing the rogue guide while maining SPriest.
wind furnace
wdym by early enough
having tier set changes delayed till raid would be rly bad, because there is a lot to double check
mossy carbon
Hopefully it will come with next ptr build 🙂
mellow urchin
as i see it
wind furnace
then earlier a change is testable/implemented then more room there is to find improvements or double check others
mellow urchin
its like a "jesus take the wheel" situation
we get what we get
we cant do antyhing about it
livid ferry
mellow urchin
we just press our buttons in the correct order and thats it
nova nexus
the heroic tuning could make things very interesting if there are still major changes
at some point done is done though
wind furnace
thats how game development work, at the end of the day its the dev team who implements and balances systems
nova nexus
did it need it? i don’t remember if there were major outliers
wind furnace
best thing to do is to have trust and accurate information
nova nexus
people expected it
mellow urchin
well its like
its clear as day to me that
no matter what our opinion is on the set
or anything in this game
nova nexus
but was major heroic week tuning actually needed
mellow urchin
it doesnt matter
and its the same for every spec, not just sub
if you dont like how it plays the easiest solution is to reroll, trying to get devs to change something in your favor is pointless
then you go to the next spec and ur fucking pissed that ur set is shit and nobody does anything, rinse repeat
its the game
mossy carbon
They've shown a decent willingness to iterate on stuff this cycle though, in terms of the number of sets reworked in some way
wind furnace
if you dont like how it plays the easiest solution is to reroll, trying to get d...
thats not true tbh, both assassination and outlaw got changes due to feedback
nova nexus
I think a lot get attached to the class or spec. I love my rogue. I haven’t enjoyed it for 2 expansions.
mellow urchin
outlaw was "changed" cus it was complete dogshit and was never going to do any dmg
same with assa set
nova nexus
still hesitant not to be on it starting 9.2
wind furnace
tbh there isn't to much to doomslay atm
mellow urchin
but the outlaw set hasnt changed much
wind furnace
the set is functionally decent atm and tuned rly well
nova nexus
maybe I have an abusive relationship with my class/spec.
nova nexus
the set is functionally decent atm and tuned rly well
disagree on functionality decent if we’re talking game play.
wind furnace
i mean, a lot of us did state our discomfort with double proc dependencies
mellow urchin
ye but thats not changing
wind furnace
but it does not mean that the set bonus can't be good still
nova nexus
just need pvpers to one shot and it’ll get adjusted, but probably without compensation
mellow urchin
we've said that since the first ptr build we could test them
wind furnace
the main issue/fear is that the baseline will be balanced around the tier set
because if you need decent procs to peform on par with the rest of the raid, you already start with a dissadvantage
it is simialr to outlaw in a lot of ways
nova nexus
i don’t think any other spec is hitting 14k sims. maybe wrong
wind furnace
outlaw did not outpeform other specs even when it did sim slightly higher
mellow urchin
enhancement
wind furnace
because of dependencies of rng
but if outlaw was simming significant enough ahead it did, becuause the baseline was stronger
nova nexus
enhancement
any others?
mellow urchin
rng is very fun for a large part of the wow playerbase, i guess, since there is a lot of focus on it
wind furnace
this is the dilemma the devs put themselves in with double rng
if they fuck up balancing, you simply won't play subtlety
if they get it correct, it will be very dominant
static crystal
So which spots should we use for our 2 Lego ?
mellow urchin
too early
static crystal
Ok
wind furnace
unclear at this point, but hence you want a answer.
You likely will put it on the strongest non-tier slot
mellow urchin
to the rest of your stuff
so there is no rush to decide yet since you wont craft a 262 legendary in that slot atm anyway
static crystal
It’s all good. I was just curious lol
mellow urchin
crafting a 262 legendary atm for 9.2 is actually just a waste of money
livid ferry
Randomness in gameplay is fun for some and not fun for others
static crystal
Ok I just have the back so
livid ferry
Guess what exists
Different specs
You want randomness in your gameplay from pull to pull?
Play outlaw
Rng doesn’t belong in sub
wind furnace
so e.g. akaaris on head or finality on chest
and the covenant legendary on waist or boots,
mellow urchin
starting to be a trend
mellow urchin
so e.g. akaaris on head or finality on chest
and the covenant legendary on waist...
why
we have no clue yet
its all decided on your items
livid ferry
Also stats from raid lol
wind furnace
but its likely that we will use one of the tier slots
livid ferry
Might be better to put akaari and cov on neck and ring
wind furnace
as they offer the highest stat budget
static crystal
Thank you. Your expertise is always most appreciated
mellow urchin
as mentioned, it depends on the raid items
wind furnace
^ and they seemingly are not finalized
mossy carbon
Is that the case for all classes?
mellow urchin
also you might dodge the tier set gloves, then you cant make a head/chest legendary
mossy carbon
They're using SoD placeholders I mean
mellow urchin
i mean last weeks build had nothing in it
mossy carbon
fuu, did you do a sim comparison between EoN and the new rygelon dagger?
nova nexus
livid ferry
Did the sim use 278 conduits
mossy carbon
oh yeah I know about the 278 one, just wondering how much the 285 haste vers would change it
Assume it would be more like a 0.5% gain in MH with 285
mellow urchin
i'll get back to you in 5-6 months when you have a 285 dagger
mossy carbon
true true
wind furnace
is the 285 on ptr already?
mossy carbon
no but it's on wowhead
wind furnace
can you link it
potent vault
i'll get back to you in 5-6 months when you have a 285 dagger
First kill
livid ferry
Did the sim use 278 conduits
.
potent vault
I’ll loot it as the only rogue
livid ferry
When it becomes useless pog
potent vault
Is that the same week I loot KT shoulders?
wind furnace
how many kills did you take for sylvanas dagger?
potent vault
19 kills in 
mellow urchin
i mean its from the last 3, you have to be VERY lucky to play with that dagger on prog
potent vault
I think I took 4-5 for M
livid ferry
Did the sim use 278 conduits
.
nova nexus
fuu ^
wind furnace
i did use rank 11
livid ferry
Ok
mellow urchin
DD ranks might make dagger better
wind furnace
but if you link me the 285 dagger, i can do a quick sim for it with 13
yes they probably do
wind furnace
yes
mossy carbon
nova nexus
dk asking the hard hitting questions to expose unethical dagger sims. 
wind furnace
<@!194804407706189824> https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=191001/observers-umbral-shiv...
thanks giveme a sec
nova nexus
i hope we kill tomorrow
mellow urchin
kt is 100% bugged
nova nexus
i was happy retired. now invested again.
livid ferry
Think i have over 20 kt kills lol
Ive seen pants and a bunch of fuckiing necks
Pants like once
And i think it was traded rofl
mellow urchin
resto sham in my guild has 21 kills
and still doesnt have the 2h staff
despite us having like
8 ppl every time
that can loot it
livid ferry
Ye we have the same situatiom
We have like 1 maybe 2 staves
We got our 1st cloth shoulders in like
Several months last night
I love loot system
livid ferry
Having no raid currency is so epic
nova nexus
but it feels good when you finally loot it crickets
livid ferry
The dopamine rush of looting off the boss is so amazing (never experienced it because I never loot anything)
nova nexus
that dagger has done nothing but make me angry. there will be no dopamine hit if it ever drops.
nova nexus
i know
potent vault
Our moonkin has a dagger
livid ferry
💀
nova nexus
better spec to have it
mellow urchin
our druid after 4 KT kills
livid ferry
Dude im so sad
livid ferry
I got tormented shadow orb traded on rogue
potent vault
Unethical
potent vault
Our dh been in for every single KT kill
With 9 vault for like 19 of those kills
No shoulders
mellow urchin
ive only seen the trinket once
livid ferry
I saw it yesterday
potent vault
Same
mellow urchin
and i got shoulders traded to me
nova nexus
the oh heroic i think is still a 380 dps upgrade for me.
mellow urchin
the oh heroic i think is still a 380 dps upgrade for me.
main part about daggers is having 2
rest doesnt matter
sure ilvl is good
but it wont make you go from 95s to 99s
nova nexus
i know. i’m doing lfr as well
mellow urchin
LFR 💀
nova nexus
you don’t know pain until you do mythic prog and lfr the same week
mellow urchin
a bit far
livid ferry
Despair
buoyant gyro
8 ppl every time
Just be like our guild and have like 10 leather classes out of 20 people in comp every week
And only 1 pants drop
livid ferry
nova nexus
whispyr with his 8th dagger or whatever.
wind furnace
Venthyr, 2 legendary + 4p:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/xqPQPoAvNuGUEpAk6KdKjs
kyrian, 2 legendary + 4p:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qQY8YDJw2smtuu9fnMV3o4
with rank 13 conduits instead of 11
nova nexus
so heroic offhand still likely at or better than 285 offhand.
and 2x mythic sets you for prog.
mossy carbon
nice, can look forward to a 2.5% upgrade 1 week before 10.0
wind furnace
with rank 11; venthyr:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qcgMc8gwS9evV1y52azw6K
with rank 11; kyrian:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9ShjxecgxPhGXJDP2woqcv
static crystal
I haven’t ever seen the dagger drop off of sly lol only lfr…:-(
wind furnace
tbh, some of the tier related apl updates could have pushed sylvanas value even a bit
wind furnace
it is rly hard to replace in offhand
mainhand easier as wepon dps are very relevant
also deeper dagger rank does not seem to make a diffrence in relative power level
livid ferry
Dd ranks also helps the other side not just eon
Bigger mh = more shadow dmg from evis and more shadow blades damage from shadowstrikes
Dd gain
mellow urchin
prob worth playing 278 in MH
livid ferry
Ye
mellow urchin
even if you drop 1-2% dmg
daggers are quite rng
at least on bosses where execute isnt a huge thing
autumn jungle
I remember my sim was telling me to play 252 vs 246 sylv dagger in dungeons
In mainhand
wind furnace
probably good enough if you only use it in offhand
wind furnace
will we see a new ptr build today
whole prism
neat dagger
wind furnace
ah, nice
clear zephyr
mental estuary
Jesus, probably means Heroic Sylv daggers equal to 285 daggers. 😆
abstract sundial
this is probably a stupid question
but uhh has anyone checked if cov leggos stack
ie: does obedience + unity give you double verse/cdr?
or does it just not let you equip obi w/ unity
wind furnace
i assume the effect will only be applied once
abstract sundial
i assume the effect will only be applied once
yeah same i just figured if there was ever a time for the funny it'd be now
lunar fractal
So what's the damage fuu?
livid ferry
that doesn't seem...
mossy carbon
Pure feelycraft but that doesn't feel like enough of a nerf
lunar fractal
The lower chance the higher the randomness though
mossy carbon
Yeah it's annoying they nerfed it that way
signal nacelle
The lower chance the higher the randomness though
True
feral schooner
tbh doesnt seem that bad
wind furnace
So what's the damage fuu?
does not seem to bad tbh
lunar fractal
Proc chance is annoying though
wind furnace
ye, lower proc chance seems like a weird attempt
lunar fractal
Thought they were trying to not do that
wind furnace
also as discussed earlier, assassination is about on par with our current strengh for progression tier set wise
delicate osprey
well it works sadly it makes highrolls even more degen
wind furnace
so this means our tier set becomes relatively seen worse
livid ferry
that nerf isn't as bad as it could have been lol
lunar fractal
Probably
wind furnace
it seems fairly low tbh
livid ferry
not probably
lunar fractal
But the randomness might make it feel even more annoying
livid ferry
it just isn't
lunar fractal
Even if it's not so bad
livid ferry
the proc chacnes were gonna get hit
delicate osprey
ye i dont think it is more than 5 %
livid ferry
that was obvious
lunar fractal
It sucks that there's no other way
hoary zephyr
I mean
It seems low unless you are kyrian
@wind furnace can you do a sim comparison please?
🥺
hoary zephyr
Yeah but could have been a worse nerf
Like reducing the set bonus shadow strike dmg (like Akaari)
I might be in the minority but I prefer % chance vs dmg hit
But
Have to see how it functions
remote cosmos
Oh no our op set got nerfed now its still insanely good
subtle oyster
already mentioned it - sub rogue set is bad designed
you dont want 2 rng set bonus
lunar fractal
Agreed
subtle oyster
i rly hope they change that
lunar fractal
1 would be ok
hoary zephyr
At least our baseline didn’t get nerfed
subtle oyster
having 2 rng bonus always hard to balance.. no idea why they would make life hard for themselves this way
neat dagger
Jesus u guys need to calm down.
mellow urchin
the amount of rng you'd have from playing venthyr sub now
mossy carbon
Yeah lol, I can't imagine how hard other class discords are melting down
neat dagger
Yeah the nerf could be worse
whole prism
If all the bugs were fixed like scar said we're big chillin right?
delicate osprey
no panic in here
lunar fractal
People just don't like randomness
unkempt peak
It's not gonna get changed at this point, we are just gonna live with RNG
neat dagger
So be happy and hope it was the last nerf
crisp lichen
outlaw buff
delicate osprey
just we embrace the gamba
crisp lichen
move on guys
hoary zephyr
the amount of rng you'd have from playing venthyr sub now
I mean just play Kyrian no?
delicate osprey
acrobatic sttrikes the boss pog
lunar fractal
rng = bad
livid ferry
15% on 2pc is whatever
hoary zephyr
But Kyrian was already performing
delicate osprey
what push said is venthyr could have been played on some bosses because of dmg profile but now it is so gamba
also kyrian 400 dps ahead pog
hoary zephyr
I will take 15% chance for 5 seconds vs duration decrease
Tbh
That’s good
2 set still good
delicate osprey
without even knowing stats on tier and trinkets
hoary zephyr
Esp in more target situation
livid ferry
if thats all they do its whatever
hoary zephyr
Ye
livid ferry
as long as the right bugs get fixed tho lol
hoary zephyr
I think Scari said like 2 or 3 bugs can’t be fixed from the list because of how the game works
delicate osprey
yea most of the things proccing from others will have to be tested
hoary zephyr
But I assume it’s shit like “4p procing from SnD” etc
crisp lichen
well would be kinda nice to know which ones cant be fixed :))
mossy carbon
This build will have all the bugfixes in it I believe?
delicate osprey
not necessarily
mossy carbon
Oh I thought scari pushed them but not in time for last build
hoary zephyr
well would be kinda nice to know which ones cant be fixed :))
Yeah
Can always ask though when he is around
:)
But would be nice to have a full patch bug fixes esp something big like that
Also
How the fuck did no one notice this
mossy carbon
assassination not being by far the best in raids is a bug not a feature
hoary zephyr
Bone dust can’t crit anymore
unkempt peak
Even though it sucks for venthyr doesn't it also suck for Kurian, the set makes it harder to do kyrian things?
barren forge
If WW 4 set hasn’t been fixed, BdB change is the least of the worries
hoary zephyr
Lmaoooo
tardy oracle
Bone dust can’t crit anymore
i dont think they care that much
hoary zephyr
i dont think they care that much
Ah I thought it would be a big change
Idk much about monks
tardy oracle
monks play like what, 40% crit?
in m+, that is
so thats like a 5% nerf to their overall in keys
plucky storm
Are we screaming yet
hoary zephyr
Ah
lunar fractal
Yes
hoary zephyr
Are we screaming yet
Nah
lunar fractal
Always right
hoary zephyr
Pretty chill
barren forge
I’m cryjng a little
tardy oracle
cause bdb usually ends up being around 15% of their damage
hoary zephyr
Venthyr players are screaming I guess
weary goblet
Are we screaming yet
thoughts?
plucky storm
It’s fine
hoary zephyr
cause bdb usually ends up being around 15% of their damage
Makes sense, tooltip did seem a bit misleading implying that it can no longer crit anymore, thus doesn’t matter how much crit you have but if the overall dmg is that much in a key then it’s not that bad
plucky storm
The nerf is giga conservative tbh
hoary zephyr
Also their set is pretty ass
hoary zephyr
The nerf is giga conservative tbh
You think it deserves more?
plucky storm
yes
winged fiber
+100 social credit
hoary zephyr
Hmm
barren forge
With their mastery, the 4 set could be p good, but it doesn’t work atm
plucky storm
yeh of course
plucky storm
but my first impression is like
livid ferry
spriest got literally deleted from existence
plucky storm
this is fine
livid ferry
actual ion cannon vaporized
hoary zephyr
Lmao
whole prism
So to clarify this stuff pushes Kyrian ahead of Venth for sub?
livid ferry
how do you figure that
hoary zephyr
Hi scari
hoary zephyr
So to clarify this stuff pushes Kyrian ahead of Venth for sub?
It already was
mossy carbon
Do the current sims take into account the bugfixes? I thought they did but might be wrong
whole prism
It already was
In all content?
tardy oracle
Makes sense, tooltip did seem a bit misleading implying that it can no longer cr...
well, the main issue with bdb is that it can doubledip on the crit
buoyant gyro
Do the current sims take into account the bugfixes? I thought they did but might...
I believe so, but it depends on which ones we are talking about I suppose
tardy oracle
kinda like winds of winter
rare ether
I mean some things like having your shadowstrikes proc talents & akaaris is pretty powerful, idk what y’all’s sims have had tho
lunar fractal
The bug changes aren't in this one right?
hoary zephyr
Scari are all the bug fixes in? Or are there still some tech hold back?
rare ether
They should be in
hoary zephyr
Oh shit Pog
lunar fractal
Ah ok
hoary zephyr
Ty ty
lunar fractal
Neat
rare ether
If some bugs persist post in the feedback thread
mossy carbon
Great! Time to go hit a dummy lol
rare ether
Since I’m moving this week
livid ferry
waiting for servers to come up
tardy oracle
So bdb can crit, and then proc, and the proc can crit again. That's basically what the nerf is aimed at, to avoid that from happening.
lunar fractal
Guess we're gonna have to berate the sims if theyre not right 😂
coarse kettle
This tier set is like playing roulette
tardy oracle
But yeah, shouldnt discuss that in here anway
delicate osprey
yea most of the pv things and aakari interactions are in simc right now
hoary zephyr
In all content?
E.g you would run Venthyr in 3 (maybe 4) fights in SoD. If 9.2 balance was taken, nothing would change
Venthyr is still king of funnel
hoary zephyr
well, the main issue with bdb is that it can doubledip on the crit
OHHHH that makes a lot more sense
delicate osprey
that is why we wanted to check the nerfs to rething some apl changes like backstab in dance etc
because that may change
plucky storm
@shut valve thoughts on KA nerf?
delicate osprey
yea blackdust was quadratic with crit
hoary zephyr
Since I’m moving this week
Moving states or local? (I have reply ping off don’t flame me chat)
buoyant gyro
Sims already assumed we could proc Akaari + PV + WM, but not sure if we're talking about something else
mellow urchin
I mean some things like having your shadowstrikes proc talents & akaaris is pret...
we were simming with ur bugfixes in mind
(its not a ping, chill)
mossy carbon
Super glad they nerfed that, would have been so cringe forcing every druid spec to play kyrian
delicate osprey
ye we already have 4 set strikes and wm to proc aakari in
that is why it saw a big upswing vs finality
whole prism
E.g you would run Venthyr in 3 (maybe 4) fights in SoD. If 9.2 balance was taken...
M+ Venth would be better just for the funnel from obed?
hoary zephyr
M+ Venth would be better just for the funnel from obed?
Yes
Venthyr still insane for m+
shut valve
<@!216508762435878913> thoughts on KA nerf?
i'm happy 🙂
shut valve
idk why ppl think i like KA
buoyant gyro
I mean those are pretty old sims though idk
hoary zephyr
Oh ur right
buoyant gyro
Fuu probably has more updated ones. There were APL changes this week
delicate osprey
most of the last ones fuu did have the updates apl
hoary zephyr
Ah yeah I forgot
There were some APL changes
With more % gains
Not pinned yet
buoyant gyro
We also assumed 4pc proc'd 2pc in sims, so I think we were simming with all the known bugfixes in place that had been posted about
mellow urchin
i think ppl need to stop looking at sim numbers when it comes to this set, its over like a gazillion iterations, the set is 100% rng and this will just make it even more rng
uncut hazel
^^^
hoary zephyr
Yeah
delicate osprey
ye i mean not much we can do we know it will be gamba
hoary zephyr
Hard to sim the set with procs
livid ferry
the number you're seeing is average RNG though lol
delicate osprey
and we can always look at variance
hoary zephyr
Yeah
mellow urchin
yea its like
delicate osprey
i know im on the neverlucky part of the equation
livid ferry
the sim number is the average outcome
buoyant gyro
Even Havoc players can do that in Fel Hammer to compared DGB and CA builds and we know how they are 😛
coarse kettle
When u are lucky this set behaves like before nerf...
hoary zephyr
Could be me
Could get 9 procs in a row in prototype final phase
Or 1 in next pull
Same phase
livid ferry
pv interaction is irrelevant
mellow urchin
so its hard to say what the % will be
livid ferry
you'll full stack with akaari anyway
delicate osprey
yea that is why we need to recheck the bs in dance things etc
delicate osprey
if it is less than 0,.5% it is quite negligible
livid ferry
you arent full stacking cause of 4 pc
buoyant gyro
16.8% DPS Variance is a little on the high side for sure...
delicate osprey
i mean for progress it will be a bit less variance as we play RC
but when we get both leggos oh boi
buoyant gyro
Darkglare Boon gambling build for Havoc is around 17.6%
lunar fractal
I mean in general we'll probably be fine, but just on personal improvements it'll be harder to check
mellow urchin
i am surprised enhancement didnt get nerfed
delicate osprey
it is really strong ye
mellow urchin
16.8% DPS Variance is a little on the high side for sure...
this is pre-nerfs tho right
so its even more rng now
delicate osprey
correct
just we lose a lil bit on the higher side of variance but gain a lower floor
buoyant gyro
Yeah will have to see what it actually comes out as. For a complex system it's very hard to predict that
Should have PTR data built in not too long
mellow urchin
subs baseline is pretty high
weary goblet
set can literally do nothing during a bad spell
uffffff
mellow urchin
but i think our set is actually worse than the assa set
just that assa baseline is worse
nova nexus
100%
mellow urchin
so its possible they still hit the sub baseline
and suddenly we cry
or like remove daggers, that would hurt us a lot aswell
nova nexus
what’s the aura percent for sub these days.
mellow urchin
difference is you can get like all of your value from the assa set by playing correctly, so its prob still preferred for serious prog ppl
hoary zephyr
Except sin gain is big with 2nd legendary with short vendetta which won’t happen until after 3 weeks are over
No?
nova nexus
tier is 18%
hoary zephyr
Or am I missing something
nova nexus
for assa
barren forge
Would you run dusk?
mellow urchin
probably
nova nexus
50% or something aura buff i think
mellow urchin
Except sin gain is big with 2nd legendary with short vendetta which won’t happen...
its from campaign end or revered
idk when that happens on ptr
nova nexus
if you have 4p yes dusk
barren forge
Okay ty
ocean ridge
im guessing the nerf to our tier is to compensate for when the bug fixes come in
buoyant gyro
so its even more rng now
ironically the variance goes down a little bit 😛
indigo pulsar
didn't he say nerfing the proc chance is the least likely nerf to happen? 😐
buoyant gyro
Probably due to the actual decreased odds of RNG chains
In most cases
Goes from 16.8 to 16%
Roughly the same though, still rather high variance
Definitely on the upper end of most specs I would imagine
livid ferry
ye it is
buoyant gyro
This is using Fuu's setup from above, but might still be best to wait for Raidbots sims and for him to re-run stuff to make sure all the settings are the same
buoyant gyro
I mean it's still a good 1k DPS higher than Whispyr's Assassination profiles atm
mellow urchin
now they just need to nerf kyrian
sub is 1k ahead of assa atm
do you see that in logs
or not 1k
but its like 500+ dps ahead of assa
in simc
buoyant gyro
I mean logs would not have the bugfixes while SimC always did
buoyant gyro
But the bugfixes are in
nova nexus
it’s like venthyr fury being ahead.
mellow urchin
sub is massively ahead of assa in current patch in simc
nova nexus
lol
mellow urchin
being ahead in simc doesnt say much
tepid prawn
assa just gets simped so much 
buoyant gyro
I mean not nearly to the same degree, Assassination gains way more from simpage
tepid prawn
to be fair all 3 of our specs do
mellow urchin
tell that to the 15k guardian logs for sub
tepid prawn
but the KA simp is nerfed
left storm
is it time to mash the panic button?
tepid prawn
we're chillin
mellow urchin
yep
mossy carbon
that's mainly daggers though? Venthyr frost is like 500 dps over kyrian sub
mellow urchin
its good
nova nexus
yep
livid ferry
stop whining push 
subtle shale
buoyant gyro
I mean trying to draw a different from like say a 300-500 baseline DPS difference between the specs
mellow urchin
but i dont think sub/assa should be 100% equal in simc, that just means assa is 100% always the better pick for anyone doing any mythic prog
buoyant gyro
Ask Khira 😄
mellow urchin
there is an extension
mossy carbon
But that's the nature of assa's design, it has always been the safe progress pick because it's consistent, does well with downtime and can be played in your sleep
buoyant gyro
Sure, but they are in SimC too
mellow urchin
without simps
no
sub is simming 12700
last time i checked
assa is scraping 12000
nova nexus
yes. browser extension.
livid ferry
sub/outlaw/assa are all up there
sleek mortar
How big was the nerf?
livid ferry
they are up there
arctic field
The sims have covenant legendary effect on shirt, and akaari's on waist. With the Cord of Unity using the waist slot, what slot would you use for akaari?
livid ferry
yea and the outlaw log is with 3 6 rolls prob
buoyant gyro
So many Sub logs are with Dagger bug though