since thats a 0.9% gain
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
mellow urchin
wind furnace
oh
nova nexus
SDoCD 
mellow urchin
140 dps on just combo point?
mellow urchin
can you do the same sim but with 9.1 profile
wind furnace
sure
wind furnace
giveme a sec
nova nexus
hatred of tier set gameplay intensifies
civic terrace
I like the way you think
delicate osprey
you will learn to love it ahaha
it will make a lot of people log review at least
civic terrace
Whats that
civic terrace
Aha
nova nexus
civic terrace
Ye that makes sense, though it wouldnt make sense for that to make a difference in the result
wind furnace
ye, not worth
wind furnace
potentially easy to fix tho
livid ferry
That profile is prob unholy
And its probably causing it to not line up with chaos banes
delicate osprey
makes sense
livid ferry
Sad
nova nexus
it’s fine?
wind furnace
with a tier set that shouldn't rly have a lot of changes due to how its designed
nova nexus
so we’ve managed to, on paper, remove nearly all thinking.
i wouldn’t exactly call that fine
autumn jungle
Wasn't assa already line up CDs Andy with venth, I guess it's even more like that with nf in 9.2
wind furnace
the apl changes don't rly remove any thinking tho
just allow slightly diffrent uses of dance
nova nexus
Wasn't assa already line up CDs Andy with venth, I guess it's even more like tha...
you full send assa. hold shiv for maybe 12 seconds for vanish window
now, at least with tier, it’s full send shadow dance. 
nova nexus
unless I’m missing what your gains were
wind furnace
the change is to use dance earlier to migrate losses on cdr/charges
it won't effect your regular dance use, you will still send on low cp
nova nexus
what was the dance uptime with the changes?
delicate osprey
ayaya
nova nexus
yeah just found it. what’s the live %?
wind furnace
54% uptime
its just the impact of tier set
🤔
did end up nerfing the conditon:
XD
but its damage neutral on the default profile...
but thats not the .8% we want
haha^^
vs. tier profile
delicate osprey
and look at it becoming even better with more gear
wind furnace
ye but its .5% loss on the default profile
delicate osprey
and then getting some -9% or so from tier set nerf
wind furnace
possible too
delicate osprey
livid ferry
Banner gameplay actually sounds fun 
nova nexus
Banner gameplay actually sounds fun <:SAD:718207731185745922>
fury has a real nice loop on ptr with necro
nova nexus
at start fae, with 2L good chance
livid ferry
I see
nova nexus
fury is more combat than outlaw
livid ferry
wind furnace
also realized that the win came from a mistake i made but well ^^
new = my intended change, dot 8 = included my mistake
but its somewhat... not great tbh
also giveme a sec to try sth
nova nexus
@livid ferry right now arms necro is around 300dps behind fae, but glory is a bigger gain to raid than the 300 dps. For Fury it’s 50 dps behind top covenant.
nova nexus
fuu starting to get the creative whispyr labels
wind furnace
i did basically use the wrong variable
so it does send dance on low cp always
instead of considering charges
the last sim just was the hack from earlier on top to force a dance at the start of the fight
now i just try to integrate my hack to the apl
wind furnace
the reason i don't comment a lot is that i need to double check a lot and compare to other profiles to not introduce issues elsewhere
delicate osprey
makes sense no one would want necro to be even lower dps
wind furnace
its just iterating over things, what i usually don't do this public
(i like to share findings, but its possibly visible that even small changes can introduce a lot of work)
i mean, i do care about nf and necro too
so if there is room for improvements, i can look. I already have one aoe improvement i need to double check for nf
delicate osprey
good thing about nf is with shadowstrike being so valuable staggering first strike becomes really approachable
and then maybe you get cucked by tier set procs ahaha
mellow urchin
is it really
kyrian is the only cov with excess dance
makes 100% sense
that this is only good for kyrian
the rest are hardlocked to symbols timers
wind furnace
yes, it seems to be better to just fire dances with considering combo points
mellow urchin
even on live
wind furnace
due to the high dance uptime
mellow urchin
?
wind furnace
no
only with tier set
currently checking if 2p is enough or 4p is needed
seems like 2p is enough
alright, lets also bring the pv optimizations in
and see how much we get with both
delicate osprey
oh boi
weary goblet
Pog
mellow urchin
nova nexus
wind furnace
i can check some other things too with it
giveme a sec
as koji mentioned, i have quite some small changes that i need to double check
but lets make this a bit interactive
possible that i break 14.1k?
mental estuary
An extra 0.19%? you can do.
nova nexus
add crit gems to sockets profile pieces.
delicate osprey
nice
wind furnace
not sure if this is a improvement over this:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/euptd774sTowXtdM3oaXw1
given the high margin of error
nova nexus
someone post this to assa. 😂
wind furnace
oh no, no er in dance just adds some more dps on top
the changes are basicall for the tier set
clear zephyr
Oh I see thank you 😊
delicate osprey
yea it is to not krangle dances as you get many more
did you put the pv things in or still waiting for set balance before we check again
wind furnace
to summerize it:
- it seems better to fire dance on low combo points always
- it seems to be better to use dance earlier if you are close to capping
- not using er during dance is a marginal win (slightly altered version of annsies change)
huh ansie
what did you add ?
quartz idol
changed shadow blades usage a bit
wind furnace
also its still below the 14.110
quartz idol
actions.cds+="/shadow_blades,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=2&!buff.shadow_blades.up"
oh I just took one of the earlier ones, you can add the later ones you posted to it as well
quartz idol
it sims 50 dps better than the 'do we like this too' change
quartz idol
yea, don't think its needed with tier set
nova nexus
we back to full send them?
quartz idol
possibly, I just tried it fast to see if its worth
wind furnace
but good idea
nice
rly need to double check shb tho on venthyr/nf
it is a damage win only with buff.shb.up
interesstingly
quartz idol
maybe it overrides in the sim?
wind furnace
thats my thought too, will ask koji to double check
seems like dps positive on venthyr too
checking nf now
potent vault
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cVLHFGMJuxfMwYf9WccLBd>
Any description of the changes?
twilit stream
nova nexus
have read up. bunch of smol things
wind furnace
the big changes
also one or two .1% changes iirc
and atm trying shb on cd rather than symbols sync
potent vault
Was the previous dance rule 1.75?
mellow urchin
"- it seems better to fire dance on low combo points always"
this means "use dance on CD but low combo points"
right
wind furnace
yes
potent vault
Dance on cooldown
potent vault
mellow urchin
potent vault
wind furnace
you still consider pv stacks for dance
and combo points
also its only for kyrian
funny thing
ocean ridge
so staying kyrian for 9.2...thank god i dont have to level other cov......oh right
nova nexus
you still consider pv stacks for dance
which is using stab during dance or was that killed already
wind furnace
without the change
oh ye
i forgot that is also in the list
will make a detailed list of changes i did to it when i am finished simming
ocean ridge
i wonder if they will nerf slyvie daggers in the new raid
wind furnace
it is possible
keep in mind that sylvanas dagger boosts our baseline by quite a lot
winged fiber
I’m cool with keeping them
ocean ridge
i have 2 x 246
nova nexus
i have 0 
winged fiber
On daggers
wind furnace
daggers alone are ~1k dps above similar itemlevel ones
so there is a potential to nerf them
nova nexus
@mellow urchin i just realized you can share weapon drops in 9.2 
wind furnace
but its rly hard to say, also offhand is a weak slot so its easy to keep it
livid ferry
seems like the shb change is irrelevant on kyrian
This is considered irrelevant?
ocean ridge
1 dagger on m is still a 300+ dps inc
wind furnace
symbols on cd stonks necro
nova nexus
symbols on cd stonks necro
dance?
wind furnace
i did just double check the blades change with the default profiles
and it seemed nf and venthyr disslike them
nova nexus
i understand the necrolord excitement and mixing up the 43 differnt s cds
wind furnace
i like how everything seems logical
alright time to test some other apl changes too
wind furnace
tl;dr
hoary zephyr
Uh oh
wind furnace
i did a sim comparing something, we did find the sequence having some issues
and it ended in a very long sim seasion and me also now throwing in some minor optimizations i have lying around
also annsie did add a change/idea
wind furnace
well new es was there because i had change for es/dark/alacrity specific
wind furnace
^ yes it ended up like this but i only by accident discovered that
the intent was diffrent tho
also as mentioned, some other small apl changes that overall make the gain fairly noticable
livid ferry
I suspected it might be better to just spam dance for blades
wind furnace
it makes sense now yes
livid ferry
Did you test this + backstabbing in dance stuff
wind furnace
backstab in dance is another one of the changes yes
wind furnace
bad news for 4 cp finisher in 9.2 during flag
winged fiber
Is that cuz of 4 pc
winged fiber
I’m torn between instafinishing on 4 when you get a 4 pc proc or just sending at 6 always and finishing on 4 if it’s the last second only
wind furnace
finishing on 4 means you get less shadow strikes
winged fiber
Oh true
The extra cdr is kind of wasted too
You need to get like 5 4 pc procs in a row to de sync flag from symbols
wind furnace
does seem like dps neutral without tier set
wind furnace
sees like mostly 4p
so i guess its fine if you have the 2p to still do the 4cp finisher in dance
hoary zephyr
bad news for 4 cp finisher in 9.2 during flag
But the 2 set can alleviate this
Since more blades = less gcd used on builders = more finishers
wind furnace
ye
steel meadow
buff deeper to 7 cp max 
pale jetty
Anticipation
steel meadow
nah its bad for aoe and funnel
livid ferry
What is
wind furnace
Anticipation
we have anitcipation at home:
wind furnace
anticipation is to similar to deeper
so it kind of made sense that it was replaced
and the row is quite good now for sin/outlaw with multiple good options
just rather dead on subtlety
unkempt peak
'removes classic style talents because they are too cookie cutter' makes even more cookie cutter talents
Just to unmeme for a sec, I know there will never not be a cookie cutter build for talents, they will never balance them so close to the point where you can choose your favourite. But I think what annoys me more is having talents clog up our tree that either have been unusable for years at this point or just don't fit well into the tree
wind furnace
The problem with anticipation/DS is that both achive similar goals
anticipation for example only was played in legion due to a bug but not because it was better
its not a cookie cutter talent if there is no real use case for a talent
wind furnace
i think mfd was even in wod better just not played because it was harder to execute
south osprey
Mfd was in another row back then i think
wind furnace
oh, i did mean ds. But i am unsure about wod hence i only started playing in late wod
also i only started to do Theorycrafting in Legion
south osprey
I don't even know when cp became target independent anymore
wind furnace
must be cata or pandaria
south osprey
But i remember redirect
wind furnace
i played wotlk and it was not the case
south osprey
Must be cata, mop or even wod
delicate osprey
i think it was wod but not sure
hoary zephyr
Redirect was removed in WoD
and cp became global
Redirect was introduced in MoP, I remember this because feral used to get redirect as an ability from Symbiosis on the Rogue
but Boomy got Cloak and Resto got Evasion 
DS didnt exist in WoD btw
iirc it was anticipation and marked for death in the same row
ah
ya
man Combat Readiness... what a fucking solid ability, would be so nice in PvP against 95% of the comps you face
wind furnace
ye
hoary zephyr
Bro old Venom Rush
"Increases your maximum energy by 15. Increases your energy regeneration rate by 5% for every enemy you have poisoned, up to 3."
that was WoD venom rush
I mean it was turned into a passive ya
buoyant schooner
More or less conditional vigor
hoary zephyr
should just make that into the current one
more or less the energy increase from more targets
nova nexus
legion killed sub and combat.
buoyant schooner
more or less the energy increase from more targets
I mean, vigor is just straight up better
hoary zephyr
ya but have both
steel meadow
No. Fuck WoD sub, was only op because of lucky combination of Archi trink, capasitor, ring and incredibly op 4t18.
nova nexus
No. Fuck WoD sub, was only op because of lucky combination of Archi trink, capas...
every version of sub has been reliant on other power sources, the spec has been relatively fucked design wise since 7.0 and keeps revolving back to the 7.0 version with other ideas tossed at it. dfa was a happy accident.
the base spec is still trash
hoary zephyr
power sources is part of the game tho
borrowed power*
or else 90% of the specs are dog shit
actually I will be bold and say 95%
of the specs
steel meadow
7.2.5 is current core design. and borrowed power is and always will be a thing now because of blizz philosophy
nova nexus
yes, but we don’t need the skeletal dh nothing but borrowed powers design philosophy
other specs aren’t all like that
buoyant schooner
I don't think sub is nearly as bad as dh
nova nexus
ie look at running mage tower time walking where there was no power and how well some specs had it
nova nexus
I don't think sub is nearly as bad as dh
our powers are relatively weak, and the spec is as well. burst is gone, priority is there but not what it once was or close to it.
hoary zephyr
rogue MT was actually the easiest out of all of them
shit, sub rogue was the only one with enrage
other specs didnt have enrage
buoyant schooner
our powers are relatively weak, and the spec is as well. burst is gone, priority...
Doesn't sub have one of the highest base dps (no tier no leggo) dps in the game right now?
I think fuu or whispyr mentioned that recently
I could be wrong though
steel meadow
its not about dps
buoyant schooner
I mean, if you're talking about reliance on borrowed power it is
Since we still hold up fine without it
nova nexus
dps is number tuning. gameplay and identity of the spec are bigger issues.
spamming shadow strike and bp is well, great
steel meadow
im fine with it as long as they make something decent and not a fucking azerite trait to spread nightblade
nova nexus
relatively being ignored for an expansion wasn’t great
steel meadow
looks like pvp talents
wind furnace
I think fuu or whispyr mentioned that recently
subtlety has a very strong baseline in 9.2 also due to sylvanas daggers
was pvp talent tree diffrent to pve?
wind furnace
but ye i found the skill tree in a pvp guide
hoary zephyr
I dont think you took Shadow Reflection in PvE
that was 100% a pvp talent
well it was a toss up
between that or DFA
hoary zephyr
@wind furnace shadow reflection just copied whatever you did in the first 7 seconds of the using the skill
really good for PvP esp as combat because revealing strike + kidney was 7 seconds, so the reflection would immediately kidney for you after the your first kidney fades
steel meadow
it was even 8 seconds but they nerfed it pretty fast didnt they
delicate osprey
u played reflection in pve too
wind furnace
i remember binding it to dance, so hacha is correct
i know that anticipation was played instead of mfd majority of time because it was easier to play
delicate osprey
more like the way tier sets worked you could overdrive on cp easily
remember we had real deathly back them
wind furnace
ye
hoary zephyr
Ah I thought we played DFA in WoD
I dont remember PvE too much from it
just mostly remember the PvP vividly
nova nexus
@wind furnace regarding rogue burst. gorfiend lol
livid ferry
Ye nice trinket hax
wind furnace
<@!194804407706189824> regarding rogue burst. gorfiend lol
the burst discussion was post wod tho
but wod esp. hfc burst of mage/subtlety was insane
nova nexus
gul... that NB dmg doing work lol
steel meadow
ye, double trinkets, t18, ring
maybe its better to look at BrF examples, where sub wasnt so lucky? 
wow such an insane burst
buoyant schooner
when maalus pops inside soul cap
Didn't people use a macro to cancelaura soul cap if maalus would proc before it because it was mathed out that it was more damage to do soul cap -> maalus over the other way around?
wind furnace
soul cap did activate if you cancled the aura, so yes
delicate osprey
you could get more than 1 soul cap proc
wind furnace
it was basically a change blizz made to make the trinket good
delicate osprey
yea but the highroll @buoyant schooner was you get soul cap on pull (always bless trinket mechanics back then) then it pops for huge dam then when maalus has 1 or 2 secs to pop you get another soul cap proc
then it all goes
buoyant schooner
Ah yea true
The real highroll was when that happened right after you come back from the downstairs on kilrogg
nova nexus
just interesting looking back at how dmg profiles and top abilities have changed
delicate osprey
would not mind
ehehe
although i still liked wod multistrike things with backstab/ambush and rupture
livid ferry
Lower melee damage to be like a trinket and move that into evis
delicate osprey
i think that was the best time for the spec gameplay wise
buoyant schooner
Or make mastery affect snd and give even more melee damage >:)
delicate osprey
we dont talk about mastery and snd
livid ferry
They need to rework like
90% of the masteries in the game
They are all trash
Quite literally versatility, except for X abilities
delicate osprey
i liked old monk mastery the first busted one
drinking the cool aid
and becoming a monster
livid ferry
Vers for evis bp rupture pog
livid ferry
Vers for frost dmg abilities pog
delicate osprey
oh wait
livid ferry
Mastery for most specs is designed in a way that unless it effects abilities that are an overwhelming amount of your dmg, you will just go vers
That is why you went mastery in bfa
Evis was like ferocious bite lol
Now that ss, melees and shit are like over 40% of your dmg or some shit
Vers is just better
buoyant schooner
Even then you needed enough crit to supplement it
Vers is just a flat stat that doesn't really need much else
livid ferry
Rework like all the masteries, they’re actual shit
steel meadow
make melee do 1% dps again 
buoyant gyro
yea but the highroll <@!232672074039164928> was you get soul cap on pull (alway...
This was a highroll for sure although not really super uncommon due to the RPPM on pull bugs, especially if you equip swapped
It was actually relatively common to get a B2B proc because the first proc was not counted into the RPPM formula correctly
livid ferry
top sub sylv parse
Gotta look at non cheater parses
wind furnace
haha ^^
steel meadow
wont be that much of difference
buoyant gyro
Always nice to make the boss that drops the dagger not actually be useful for the dagger
livid ferry
Ye its nice that even when you get to 2 stacks
buoyant gyro
theorhetically
livid ferry
She drops to 1 stack regardless
buoyant gyro
of course
buoyant gyro
I can't really confirm she actually drops the dagger
nova nexus
it’s just be nice to not see some random ass shared power or melee top 3 dmg abilities
and the builder spammer as top 3 not exactly fun for me
livid ferry
Bring back evis being like all your dmg
steel meadow
better?
nova nexus
but here we are
livid ferry
Make my dmg breakdown look like feral
worn prawn
true shit, bring back fat eviscerates
nova nexus
blood link seems low. kinda sus.
steel meadow
Make my dmg breakdown look like feral
got ya
livid ferry
steel meadow
1,75 melee
steel meadow
ok, maybe like 3% shadowblades included
livid ferry
Bring that back
steel meadow
but still
worn prawn
nova nexus
buoyant gyro
I mean melee being high is generally a good thing if we want weapons to matter
steel meadow
bring that zul shit out of here
buoyant gyro
But also the more damage sources we have the higher melee will be
That's kinda just "random" due to design
12% isn't exactly super high tbh
nova nexus
if melee doesnt matter and weapons dont drop because reasons, are we in a better world?
wind furnace
finality for m+
akaari for raid
well both can work in both
if you have a single target heavy dungeon, akaari might be better
and if you have multiple targets/funnel/aoe finality might be worth in raid
covert matrix
That’s perfect info. Thanks so much
wind furnace
i mean, you will need to test it out tbh
i assume that the majority will just play finality in m+ and cba
wind furnace
i mean finality is good always while akaaris is rly only good in 1/2 target situations
akaari isn't bad on 3 but finality just beats it
steel meadow
real shit happens once u go into 4+
u're basically have no time to press stab
steel meadow
pv
delicate osprey
really depends would need to see it better
wind furnace
I would keep it in mind/test it more, it seems not aweful as a option
kind of the exciting thing about 9.2, you can experiment with stuff
steel meadow
its not awful, but in aoe scenarios.. yea
wind furnace
would also like to look a bit more into other options, not sure if there is any optimization left
steel meadow
the bad thing about akaari is its 2 sec delay
if u're not paying enough attention u basically will lose stacks from it
clear zephyr
Hopefully we get a release date soon 😁
weary goblet
Akari on neck?
livid ferry
You probably wont bother with slot juggling on prog
weary goblet
I’m not familiar with the teir set slots is it like body legs hands feet?
nova nexus
chest head shoulders legs hands
wind furnace
you see the slots too at the start of the tier set string:
hoary zephyr
I think Akaari will be neck unless slots are not finished yet
err
stats on tier sets
which I dont think are because they are the same as SoD stats
there is a non tier crit vers helm
and no crit vers neck
p sure akaari will go on neck, wear the non tier crit vers helm and wear the 4 set from other slots
pale jetty
Probable
Could also go on hands if there's no Crit vers gloves
Since you can get Crit vers neck from spires
pale jetty
And wear 4p head
hoary zephyr
will have to see
pale jetty
But have to see how that works
hoary zephyr
when it becomes more clear
nova nexus
hands were changed to crit haste on1/18
pale jetty
Or is that wrong
wind furnace
keep in mind that you can put the covenant lego in any slot
so you can take the best slot for the 2nd legendary
nova nexus
head is more
wind furnace
and put the covenant specific one on the best thats left
head/legs/chest is best stat budget wise
nova nexus
shoulders hands waist boots are the same
wind furnace
does not mean its the best slot
nova nexus
secondary stats on neck may outweigh the agility on gloves or what not
pale jetty
That's true
wind furnace
i mean
pale jetty
But it depends on our stat distribution
wind furnace
the overall gain is decided by the value of the best item of the slot compared to the legendary
pale jetty
Could be possible we still slap cov Lego on back/belt
wind furnace
you potentially will wait and see what tier set pieces you get
nova nexus
neck is just safe if you want to doomsday prep
topaz merlin
And later in the patch we can take an item off the last 3 bosses and turn it into a set item. Which could change things with the extra 6 ilvls of stats.
For more optimisations.
nova nexus
The tier set in its current form on the ptr in mutlitarget is rather amusing. at one point had 4 straight 6pt eviscerates from procs
thin arrow
Hows it looking for the Cov to have for M+ in 9.2 ?
wind furnace
venthyr
nova nexus
kyrian and venthry, the other two for sub are meh still
thin arrow
Thanks
echo crypt
Isnt venthyr better for prog as well cause of his dmg profile?
wind furnace
depends
echo crypt
Like 1 min burst Windows instead of kyrian constant dmg
wind furnace
venthyr is more "bursty", kyrian is more "sustained"
echo crypt
yep
subtle oyster
kyrian for progress is fucked up if you want to get full value out of the lego
at more stressfull fights you dont want to deal with shadow tech cp procs tbh
maybe it gets better with more practise but i dont think so
wind furnace
venthyr also relies on you playing the flag window well
nova nexus
current tier set pick your proc
subtle oyster
building + spending cp is easier than getting the last kyrian empowerd cps but yeah..
maybe its just me cause i dont play kyrian a lot but i often find myself trying to finish 2/3 cp and then missing it cause of cp proc and doing low cp finisher while dance and getting mad
nova nexus
ask fuu to sim what happens if I miss every 2/3 empowered
wind furnace
you can just wait for a sht proc outside of dance to hit 2
forest hamlet
maybe its just me cause i dont play kyrian a lot but i often find myself trying ...
I used to be like that until I tried properly. It's mainly about hodling the low cp buffs until you are out of dance. However with random shb procs from the set and more uptime on dance I can it being harder.
subtle oyster
probably better to hold it yeah
forest hamlet
ask fuu to sim what happens if I miss every 2/3 empowered
@wind furnace Yo, what happens if I miss every 2/3 empowered? Did you sim that?
nova nexus
it was annoying with the tier set, but tbh I’m out of practice. venthyr I was close to 51% sblades uptime. lol
i’d just like to see the working tier set to figure out if I still enjoy anything the spec will offer in 9.2
wind furnace
<@!194804407706189824> Yo, what happens if I miss every 2/3 empowered? Did you s...
i could do a apl change for it, but its worse given that 2 is the highest value proc
nova nexus
assa plays sooo slow with deeper
forest hamlet
After practicing Kyrian I can say I don't mind play either Kyrian or Venthyr. I still prefer Venthyr tho. Feels more bursty and more forgiving. Altho I do like the engaging playstyle of Kyrian now and then.
subtle oyster
backstab proccs with the new set is kinda fun
forest hamlet
i could do a apl change for it, but its worse given that 2 is the highest value ...
Yea I figured. I usually aim to get 2cp in between dance and usually on Rupture too. However I feel like it's gonna be really hard with the set.
But that's just feelycraft, since I haven't played PTR
subtle oyster
in general shadow tech and kyrian are just counter intuitive
it was already in aoe situations.. and its overall very bad design (also to some extend for outlaw)
i think with some practise its not that bad but if you fight the worm mythic for example (skorlex?) you need to watch your feet every 5 sec
so if you dont pay attention you ll spawn a permanent void...
stuff like that is meh
nova nexus
venthyr you’re basically just reacting to the tier procs
subtle oyster
venth is just: get high cp.. have enough energy to get rolling
wind furnace
kyrian def. has some design flaws
subtle oyster
and do your builder spender comb
nova nexus
kyrian reminds me of plate spinning
subtle oyster
good thing about kyrian though
if you dont know a fight yet and use flag and dont get uptime
you ll lose way more dps than missing 1-2 empowerd cps
(or if you play with 200 ms on ptr and get only 13 stacks out of it)
nova nexus
just wipe the raid and learn from your mistake. lol
wind furnace
kyrian looks like quite a bit ahead in 9.2 tho atm
so at least on single target it will probably be the go-to
forest hamlet
There's many variables in progression. Sure at the end we might go Kyrian for the deeps, but on the journey there we'll see what happens I guess.
nova nexus
i wonder how many guilds will actually clear prior to 2L
wind furnace
does not rly matter
the tier will be very long, so you can assume that 2 legendary and 4p is a default
ofc. outside of the very early push
buoyant gyro
I don’t really think Kyrian is as complex as people think it is. Likely they just don’t have a very streamlined WA or approach for managing the animacharges. That’s the challenge more than anything in terms of having the information and not having to overthink it.
When you get used to it, it’s not that complex
And really requires fairly minimal effort
subtle oyster
most tilting thing is if you think you can get the low cps on the fly while shd and then miss it cause of proc
wind furnace
being aware of your sht procs is def. one of the better things you can do to improve
buoyant gyro
Yeah
forest hamlet
I have the wa for the sht procs, but it's pretty much ingrained into me now. I'm just not allowed to ever get any more haste xD
subtle oyster
hopefully they wont change collective anguish lego for dh so i ll play the proper dot spec.. havoc dh 
nova nexus
now you have to watch for sblades procs as well for the low cps
elfin cedar
Is there a current dps comparison of the 3 specs in BiS gear yet that I can look at? I see the sub PTR sims, can't find ones of outlaw/sin
autumn jungle
There are sin sims in the pins, not sure about outlaw but they are 100% lower than sub and sin
nova nexus
assa has a complete spreadsheet in the pins
there are no bis gear setups
and the sub tier set is scuffed currently
hoary zephyr
Kyrian will definitely be better for prog imo
Phial is pretty good + Venthyr takes practice w/ fight timings. Kyrian you just play the game
nova nexus
honestly will come down to whatever you’re more comfortable with and what the final set looks like. they both have their pluses and minuses.
winged fiber
^
feral schooner
Phial is pretty good + Venthyr takes practice w/ fight timings. Kyrian you just ...
Imo kyrian is way easier to play once you get used to. Venthyr takes way more planing
wind furnace
earliest assumed is 22th feb
but it will be likely feb/march
(nothing official, but the time frame its expected)
delicate osprey
i wanted to vote patch release last week of febv
autumn jungle
That's not the end of Feb, they usually release the date like a month before
I think
nova nexus
the already announced season 3 tournament stuff so it's on its way if its ready or not
neat dagger
i watched the video from maxim about the tier set ranking stuff and i guess 50% of the "experts" said, their tier set is buggy
so
its not ready tbh
wind furnace
I did watch the tier set video too after i saw some discussions about it
thats my conclusion 😛
autumn jungle
Ye, at least for Outlaw Scari during the stream said that it will get buffed
mellow urchin
That's not the end of Feb, they usually release the date like a month before
2 weeks
is the cut off time
historically
cus of pvp season ending
a month before sounds very rare if it has ever happened
wind furnace
Ye, at least for Outlaw Scari during the stream said that it will get buffed
he did say tuning will happen for all sets at the same time
wind furnace
cus of pvp season ending
so whats your guess?
mellow urchin
i mean idk
sloot and towellie has said between 22nd feb and 8th march
seems reasonable
crisp lichen
whatever the dice says after blizzard decides to roll it
nova nexus
it has to go at some point. they can keep tuning prior to raid.
mellow urchin
roll some dice perhaps?
crisp lichen
their decisions are so random sometimes, cant be a human being deciding that
has to be a dice randomly telling them to do this and that
throwing 150+ hotfixes at a boss
2 days later its fully reworked either way?
autumn jungle
Grand Melee but instead of extending snd it extends the release date
nova nexus
their decisions just look like that of a publisher who wants it out, very blizzard polish that used to exist supposedly
wind furnace
i think its fair to let them decide on their own when game is polished to the point they want
how well that worked in the past is up to everyone to judge for themself
i personally don't mind a later release date if it means that balancing/bugfixes are in place and the player experience is better
mellow urchin
2 days later its fully reworked either way?
do you know if halondrus lost his pylons or not
nova nexus
of course, but moving deadlines is usually quite frowned upon in any corporate environment that involved production.
livid ferry
do you know if halondrus lost his pylons or not
Afaik yes
On mythic testing the boss lost his dr and the pylons didn’t even explode if you phased without killing them (they exploded on heroic so you had to do all b4 phasing)
Think a guildie checked journal and said that pylons are just gone entirely
livid ferry
Ye just gonna be some throughput check now
mellow urchin
looks like a heal fight
clear zephyr
No more pylons is correct
slender iris
If we're dumping PV stacks before dance w/ the 4p is there a gain to popping symbols for the first BS? That way BS on both sides of the dance get symbols
unkempt peak
Remember back at the beginning of January when we were really nicely told the sub set was gonna get nerfed, but if the nerf was too strong and the set no longer felt good to play, there was potential in seeing it get reworked. Still think that's possible? Or the nerf we get is the nerf we have to live with?
clear zephyr
Tough to say unless they already have plan B ready
unkempt peak
Yeah that's what I was thinking, unless they know what they would change it to then I doubt it would get changed at this point, if we are about a month from it dropping. Still need to see if they are gonna do any tuning outside of just tier sets...
wind furnace
Remember back at the beginning of January when we were really nicely told the su...
i think time constrains would make it very hard to do a rework at this point in time
unkempt peak
Fingers crossed it gets tuned well :)
livid ferry
Nah 9.2 will be an L patch for this spec
wind furnace
I don't think there is a big reason to be concerned
but tuning def. could lower the "excitement" of the spec
unsure if subtlety is "powerful & fun" anymore tier set wise after tuning
livid ferry
Either way its either set gets nuked or aura will get nuked
Doubt theres a rework lol
Patch releases in less than a month
wind furnace
there is also focus on doing other set changes
unkempt peak
i mean we can only speculate and see what comes, & Scarizard has been doing some really good work across the board! Their level of communication is setting a new president for Devs - even with blizzards track record of over adjusting, I'd say im hopefully optimistic that we wont get pigeonholed into just playing Sin next tier and the Sub tierset will still feel fun, even if you arent gigablasting
clear zephyr
Has it been announced number of bosses required to get 3 vault options from raid? Is it still 9?
wind furnace
i don't think subtlety will be terrible
i am not as confident to expect subtlety to at least stay the go-to or popular choice
unkempt peak
sadge
livid ferry
Of course it won’t be lol
feral schooner
i am not as confident to expect subtlety to at least stay the go-to or popular c...
I still hope it will be. I just hope outlol will be bad
livid ferry
It’ll be looked at as the coper meme spec again
wind furnace
subtlety atm is rly strong due to daggers too
but dagegrs lose value with people getting more gear
feral schooner
Has it been announced number of bosses required to get 3 vault options from raid...
Thats from the current ptr right now
wind furnace
subtlety baseline does rly strong damage atm and its like 1k alone from daggers
mellow urchin
sanctum
clear zephyr
Thats from the current ptr right now
Thanks!
unkempt peak
we could be big hopers, they did say that an Agi dagger is planned to be added to the second to last boss? maybe that has a very strong effect too 🙂
feral schooner
we could be big hopers, they did say that an Agi dagger is planned to be added t...
If that dagger is good in heroic like EoN then yes if it just a standard agility dagger its worthless for prog.
livid ferry
Its just a basic bitch dagger
wind furnace
we did talk quite a bit about the dagger in here, its a bit of a repeating discussion
feral schooner
but a stat dagger at the last 3 bosses you wont likely get to kill the last bosses enough times. Most will extend ID if they have enough gear to kill the end boss
nova nexus
subtlety baseline does rly strong damage atm and its like 1k alone from daggers
maybe our base profile shouldn’t have had daggers.
wind furnace
esp. because sylvanas dagger is just straight out beating anything without a effect in offhand and still remains bis in mainhand up to very high mythic itemlevels
i don't think thats fair
the dagger is a baseline item for rogues, and almost everyone has them
livid ferry
Were the dagger comparison sims done with upgraded deeper daggers btw
wind furnace
there is no reason to hide any information, rogue is and was always about transparency
nova nexus
i’ll keep checking my mailbox for the daggers. and I don’t want them nerfed but it’s ridiculous in my mind to think our spec nerf is going to come because of previous tier loot
wind furnace
also the dagger is at least lore wise very interesting
i mean sub has even without daggers a good baseline
livid ferry
i’ll keep checking my mailbox for the daggers. and I don’t want them nerfed but ...
It wont be becuz of loot it will be becuz they have some static value they think its good to balance all sets to
Disregarding all spec baselines are different
wind furnace
but daggers make it quite a bit better
livid ferry
And they probably don’t have a real plan to rebalance after they nerf/buff all the sets to their 8-12% range
wind furnace
It wont be becuz of loot it will be becuz they have some static value they think...
i have no inside on their approaches, i can't rly think of any "baseline" that would ignore the dagger tho
livid ferry
We got the inside already
wind furnace
i think its potentially fair to not have mythic daggers in a baseline profile
livid ferry
They think tuning all the sets to an average of like 10% gain is healthy
wind furnace
i am unsure if 8-12% is actually achivable easy
nova nexus
even if the baseline of the spec is lower than others
wind furnace
with all the interactions of the tier set
seems quite hard to achive without touching proc rates or cutting stuff
unkempt peak
i mean im not gonna doomsay unless the set gets a big ol' nerf & we are a week before the patch drops / a week before the raid opens
livid ferry
Even without any bugs fixed our set is viewed to be too strong lol
Its gonna get absolutely nuked
wind furnace
assassination is also still about that
wind furnace
i will keep a more positive position towards the sets
nova nexus
but they’re asking for it. lol
again
maybe my tier set can give me raid utility
while we do similar dps to others
wind furnace
i mean the fear of atbt like changes is still there
making proc rates so low that the set piece becomes a joke
potent vault
antorous 
nova nexus
assa at its base is melee and poison damage, I should hope the tier is strong.
no buttons matter much
wind furnace
i mean, possible that you have more inside. But i don't have any inside on tier tuning
nova nexus
but omg here’s a 14% tier set please nerf us blizz
wind furnace
so i am careful with assuming that there is a static range that doesen't change
nova nexus
watch healers, specifically holy pali. they nerfed the spec and left the tier
wind furnace
as those ranges can easy change weekly with comparing/discussing tier sets
nova nexus
see if they do that with any dps, or if they just nerf tier on specs that are already weak at the base
wind furnace
balancing is also a act of changing all individual systems
livid ferry
i mean, possible that you have more inside. But i don't have any inside on tier ...
scarizard awhile ago in general stated that they think it is a healthy approach to make the sets across the board all a +/- equal value
It seems to me that value is around like 10%ish
nova nexus
balancing is also a act of changing all individual systems
or a 2-3% aura change. 
livid ferry
Ye
Nice hopium
Actual balancing 💀💀
Imagine if they like nerfed our set but also buffed our legendaries to counteract the spec becoming a mediocre st spec
wind furnace
scarizard awhile ago in general stated that they think it is a healthy approach ...
it is, as it allowes devs to tweak baseline and other systems
clear zephyr
Hopefully they leave rogue doing top tier damage since not much other utility in raid is brought
nova nexus
they threw their hands up with FDK. i’m assuming at this point sub just gonna get the nerf and be done.
wind furnace
but i can also tell you that % increases was also the aim for 9.0 legendary tuning
livid ferry
it is, as it allowes devs to tweak baseline and other systems
Ye you think they have a real plan to do widespread balancing?
wind furnace
😉
livid ferry
I don’t
I don’t see them making any drastic changes to specs legendaries conduits etc
nova nexus
well we couldn’t make 4pc work, here’s a 3% mastery buff for the 4pc
wind furnace
i mean yes
livid ferry
Think you fuu have all xpac been hoping for individual system tuning and shit
wind furnace
na
nova nexus
yea
livid ferry
And it has happened in extreme scarce amounts
wind furnace
i did just assume it was the approach given the knowlage that legendary powers seemed to be tuned around a % range
nova nexus
remember when we wanted choice and competitive legendaries? 
wind furnace
that sadly didn't seem to apply to a lot of classes
clear zephyr
Premeditation is going to feel good in dungeons with 4 piece
wind furnace
but we discussed this a lot over time, basically this assumption seemed incorrect due to how a lot of classes had bigger outliners
unkempt peak
why have 2 or 3 good legendary choices when you can have 2 usable and 18 dead
wind furnace
so either, the goal was not reached/to ambiciouse
livid ferry
that sadly didn't seem to apply to a lot of classes
So
They aren’t really tuned around a % range lol
wind furnace
or they decided on diffrent goals
nova nexus
or they relied too heaving on TCs and only 1-2 classes gave real data.
buoyant gyro
I mean I think they are in theory but not everyone got the memo 😛
nova nexus
or put in the effort for real data
livid ferry
I mean if not everyone complied with the target goal it doesn’t matter then
buoyant gyro
I think this is somewhat unavoidable given the number of specs
wind furnace
^
livid ferry
Ye idk thats some defeatist mentality
buoyant gyro
They don’t actually have enough bandwidth to chase everything atm
winged fiber
apparently that's what happened in nathria
buoyant gyro
Think it’s a big problem with the game atm balance wise
winged fiber
rogue worked with the budget % and every other class said fuck it freestyle
buoyant gyro
Not suggesting it’s ok that it’s that way. It’s clearly a failure if that’s a reason for it. Just being pragmatic for why it is.
livid ferry
to be clear I think having target range % things to aim for is some dumb shit just make sure the end total is balanced
nova nexus
well rogue also probably gave them the most accurate data representation of and dps class. our guys don’t fuck around
buoyant gyro
Target range is for inter spec balance not for external balance though. This still gets missed too frequently.
At the end of the day Blizzard uses aura tuning for mass adjustments not specific shit.
nova nexus
fuu individual lever dream dies
livid ferry
all of the spec's baselines are too all over the place to actually aim for dumb target ranges
its just unrealistic lol
buoyant gyro
Like 9.0.5 they didn’t say “Assassination is 20% behind let’s buff Sepsis by 200%”
wind furnace
fuu individual lever dream dies
no, what koji says is in no way in conflict with what i stated
buoyant gyro
They just cranked up the aura
nova nexus
i’d love to see what specs are at dps wise with just plain gear, no powers
livid ferry
ye cranking aura is much simpler than tinkering with specific leges abilities etc
nova nexus
then see where the target powers goals land
unkempt peak
ill agree the tuning this expansion has been the laziest i think ive ever seen. Outside of flat number tuning specs themselves havent really been touched, only a small handful of talents got touched, all the effort seemingly went into the systems, which arent very interesting...
buoyant gyro
Literally the only thing Covenant or Legendary balance in relative terms does is impact the options we have as players of the spec.
That’s all
wind furnace
also to clearify this, this discussion is not about having the ideal balancing strategy
buoyant gyro
Look at Mages for example. They have a broken legendary. But don’t really do outlier damage.
livid ferry
get a rogue
buoyant gyro
What good is that “big” legendary?
All it does is mean their other legendaries are shit
nova nexus
what good is 12 mediocre legendaries?
buoyant gyro
That’s fine
I’m just saying having outlier stuff doesn’t make your overall damage outlier by default
unkempt peak
@nova nexus its the illusion of choice
livid ferry
ye for sure
buoyant gyro
Global tuning is independent
wind furnace
What good is that “big” legendary?
well, there are other examples it did a lot, looking f.ex. at balance
nova nexus
and now you have the balance of specs with good covenants and spec without
nova nexus
at this point just make it a FfA and any 2 legos
livid ferry
nah 2 legos in general is a mistake
buoyant gyro
I mean Balance who knows. I think Blizzard was just playing whack-a-mole with Convoke balance
livid ferry
it was never supposed to happen it was just a pocket thing that they had in case the xpac got some real bad pr
nova nexus
now hunters back to wild spirits before bug fix if I read their set and lego stuff correctly.
buoyant gyro
Could make a short novel out of all the Convoke update posts on beta forums too 🤣
nova nexus
a week
livid ferry
every week
wind furnace
i mean you could also write a novel in shadow priest changes on alpha/beta
livid ferry
some boomkin changes
wind furnace
😛
unkempt peak
i mean its obvious that blizzard favour the most played specs / classes
livid ferry
not really bro
sub has been mini reworked like
3 xpacs in a row now
its considered a meme spec lol
robust lotus
the legion rework was pretty big
wind furnace
tbh i think subtlety had barely any change
nova nexus
nah. we just are in groundhogs day with base 7.0 spec
wind furnace
in bfa/sl
robust lotus
going from NH to ToS was really good
wind furnace
tos was a rework that introduced dfa
livid ferry
dance changes killed an entire playstyle
wind furnace
what was a extremely unintended side effect
nova nexus
then back to 7.0
livid ferry
and changed the damage profile
wind furnace
and bfa/sl just got rid of dfa again
nova nexus
then we got talents added the week of patch?
robust lotus
I for one welcome our DfA overlords
wind furnace
what seems reasonable from a dev point of view because it wasn't intended anyways
robust lotus
was only a problem cos of shuriken combo
livid ferry
what seems reasonable from a dev point of view because it wasn't intended anyway...
some things that aren't intended should be considered to be made intended
wind furnace
but questionable from a community point of view that would have preferred a iteration on the ability/spec
nova nexus
sechtech is still shit and could have been a legit dfa replacement.
livid ferry
if they are viewed as giga fun by players
buoyant gyro
sechtech is still shit and could have been a legit dfa replacement.
Think it was definitely intended as such
wind furnace
i try to hide my bias for dfa hence i did spend way to much time optimizing apl for it and rly liked the gameplay
buoyant gyro
Just not strong enough
winged fiber
all i know is
livid ferry
too many times a game dev believes they know what is best for the spec and not what players actually want
winged fiber
red chicken made it through a whole tier
wind furnace
dfa could be a fair replacement
winged fiber
so any point about op balance is moot
nova nexus
Just not strong enough
and basically left for dead
wind furnace
but core aspects of the spell are changed to disallow the effect on the rotation dfa had
also the cdr makes no sense
unkempt peak
i mean how many expansions has gloomblade been dead now? still no signs of that changing
buoyant gyro
Well it’s certainly a true enough statement that Rogue talents have not had nearly enough tuning or iteration since mid-Legion