Okay so
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
wind furnace
i could increase them if wanted
mellow urchin
no its with set piece
wind furnace
its only 1 more level ins't it?
pale jetty
Ah
mellow urchin
its 2
pale jetty
Is it one more level?
mellow urchin
but its whatever
pale jetty
I think they skipped
mellow urchin
conduit upgrades are whatever
for us
best conduit giving another 20 dps
dont bother
mellow urchin
heroic to mythic is only 1%
nova nexus
still hoping for a heroic. 
mellow urchin
you can live without 1%
pale jetty
It's not that big of a deal for me not getting a mythic but
nova nexus
maybe we’ll kill Sylvanas and I get a mythic. 🧠
pale jetty
Would still be nice
mellow urchin
ye
on anything not st
i think new ilvl daggers
are just gonna be equal
to eon
pale jetty
Prob swap it out yeah
nova nexus
fuu ran dslice. mythic eon oh won
pale jetty
Yeah but was that aoe or funnel
wind furnace
on venthyr id didn't tho
pale jetty
Yeah you don't touch kyrian for keys
pale jetty
Venthyr funnel capacity is just miles ahead of what kyr can do
wind furnace
with rank 13 conduits
hoary zephyr
Ya
pale jetty
I'm guessing 2x is double mythic
hoary zephyr
Fuu is there a way to test dagger bug?
mellow urchin
with a paladin yes
pale jetty
I'm p sure they fix sac right
wind furnace
yes
mellow urchin
I'm p sure they fix sac right
hoary zephyr
Maybe run a sim where BB is 4 stacks 100%
pale jetty
Like no way they keep that
hoary zephyr
And compare that
mellow urchin
they have known about it for a while, still not fixed
pale jetty
wind furnace
giveme a sec
hoary zephyr
Ty ty
wind furnace
dagger bug sim inc
mellow urchin
900 dps on live
mellow urchin
for kyrian
pale jetty
Oh damn
mellow urchin
like 800 dps for venth
pale jetty
Maybe I should be spamming that
wind furnace
dagger bug is quite big ye
mellow urchin
just buy pots from ashran
pale jetty
I have
mellow urchin
and its 100%
wind furnace
you basically summon daemons in your opener
hoary zephyr
I need to convince my hpal to sac me everytime now too
wind furnace
drinking some weird juice named nitro fuel and dance around a fire place
pale jetty
Lmao
hoary zephyr
Nah nah
pale jetty
My hpal will sac me but I need to ask them to per fight
hoary zephyr
It’s using 3 different macros AND drinking nitro fuel while over the fire
That’s peak performance
pale jetty
And they place book too early and too far
hoary zephyr
Lmao
wind furnace
its with rank 13 conduits
hoary zephyr
15k sim
pale jetty
Holy fuck
wind furnace
so compare it with the above
wind furnace
so 14.4k -> 15.2k
pale jetty
Double sylv it is
wind furnace
around 800 dps with 2 daggers
wind furnace
but only around 400 with 1
nova nexus
only
hoary zephyr
hoary zephyr
Get ur mythic already
pale jetty
How many weeks do I have
Like at least 2 right
Maybe she'll drop one and I'll get in vault next week 
hoary zephyr
At min, end of Feb
nova nexus
6 until raid starts (allegedly)
hoary zephyr
Is my guess
wind furnace
i mean push did just state earlier that its "only 2.5% dps"
what is essentially around the 350-400 dps mark
nova nexus
maybe push isn’t drinking enough nitro fuel
nova nexus
pale jetty
🥲
mellow urchin
vengeance and 4 daggers
trophies collecting dust
reminder that raz had 5 daggers in september
pale jetty
Yeah but how
mellow urchin
luck
autumn jungle
Built diff
pale jetty
Does he get one like every fucking vault
mellow urchin
he did for a while yue
mellow urchin
i pick every dagger i get from the vault, gotta roll some tertiaries
wind furnace
raz had a lot of luck
hoary zephyr
Reminder @tepid prawn still has 1
mellow urchin
ye we dont loot them
wind furnace
but i also think chest has a higher chance of dagger from mythic
tepid prawn
Reminder <@165215952479322112> still has 1
hoary zephyr
LMAO
pale jetty
LOL
autumn jungle
He traded his luck to play with Colour ;)
autumn jungle
Just shows how even with multiple of the same class doesn't help you with the current shit loot system
nova nexus
future shadow priest burning his daggies out the door with nitro fuel
pale jetty
Reminder I'm still in 239 gloves and boots
hoary zephyr
But you just killed sylv and had been extending non stop
pale jetty
And seeing alts more geared than me rips my soul
autumn jungle
He doesn't have 252 phial at least
hoary zephyr
So that’s understandable
pale jetty
But you just killed sylv and had been extending non stop
8-10 kills on early bosses though
hoary zephyr
Ig
pale jetty
Even people who joined us as trials got their drops before me 🥲
mellow urchin
tbf this alt has 9 sylvanas mythic kills
pale jetty
My guild did a little bit of trolling this tier so
We've just killed
Literally had to change whole roster, raid lead, tanks, healers etc mid tier
mellow urchin
ye its almost 6 months since we killed sylvanas at this point, time flies
wind furnace
push flexing ^^
pale jetty
Like I kinda want to join a guild that clears faster but
When you make friends n shit it becomes hard to leave
Just gonna hope it was a bad tier
Well it was an easy tier but
robust lotus
It's a tough time for guilds
mellow urchin
yep super rough
pale jetty
yeah we've struggled to find people so we've had to carry a bit of weight
quite a bit of weight...
robust lotus
It's the same most places, don't worry
wind furnace
tbh microsoft just needs to put wow on the game pass
and would increase the population by a lot
wind furnace
xpacs could remain buy in and classic baseline
so its not a bad model
and not a lot of ppl have game pass already who play blizz games, so i don't think they lose out to much
pale jetty
i would love to pay for game pass and get WoW too
that way i pay less for WoW and get other games
buoyant gyro
WoW on Game Pass probably will take a while because they will have to weigh if the loss of existing sub money will beat out the additional monetization from more players
pale jetty
yeah
buoyant gyro
They’d probably try to load up the store with more cosmetics or things as well
robust lotus
I don't mind either way
pale jetty
not to mention the things tied to diff sub levels
robust lotus
Cat tmog when
pale jetty
as long as store isnt the only way to get cosmetics
buoyant gyro
Long term I think it’d be positive though
pale jetty
but yes please omg
robust lotus
To go with cat mount
pale jetty
can microsoft PLEASE put in casual transmog
can my character stop looking like a fucking 240p toothpick from wrath
buoyant gyro
Realistically I feel like WoW should have gone b2p a long time ago
pale jetty
what's b2p
buoyant gyro
Buy to play. E.g. one time purchase for game and then xpacs
Later
But no sub
GW2 model
pale jetty
eh yeah that probably wouldve been better for population
but it wouldve made less money overall
buoyant gyro
But it does mean you have to have a timely schedule and enough secondary sources of monetization like cosmetics
robust lotus
B2p with an uptake on shop cosmetics is what they'd do
pale jetty
yeah if they did that
pale jetty
like what FF does
buoyant gyro
It’s not always less money though. More players lead to more paid services and such
pale jetty
well, FF is sub based too but
wind furnace
wow is just super expensive currently for the amount of content
buoyant gyro
They should have probably swapped over when player numbers got down so low tbh
pale jetty
didnt they just make all expacs free up until most recent when player numbers dipped that low?
buoyant gyro
When you compare peak launch numbers on xpacs to sustained numbers
pale jetty
im p sure that's why they swapped to that model
because before that you had to buy every single expansion
buoyant gyro
The market for people who are interested in WoW is way larger than the people who sub to WoW
pale jetty
i mean yeah a lot of my irl friends who are really casual have bought shadowlands but just dont want to pay a sub for it anymore
buoyant gyro
So it’s about capturing that market for longer and converting them to using paid services instead of leaving
pale jetty
they cant get past being casual in the game because it's literally not worth it to them
buoyant gyro
Depending on the math it can easily win out
When WoW seems to go from ~10m launches to 1-2m sustained it seems like it’s worth considering a model change tbh
mellow urchin
problem is if you tap too much into f2p mechanics like a heavy transmog store
it takes over
mellow urchin
and leaders of the company will want to focus on creating new cool stuff for the store
and every item in the game will be trash
buoyant gyro
Doesn’t take away from dev resources since it’s a totally different department
mellow urchin
have you played path of exile
pale jetty
yeah i know but it already is that direction
buoyant gyro
Art resources are effectively infinite
pale jetty
just look at the store mounts vs what we get in game
hoary zephyr
can my character stop looking like a fucking 240p toothpick from wrath
Bro ur mog is literally nothing but a bandage shirt
mellow urchin
your character literally looks like a bag of shit in PoE, unless you buy transmog from the store
pale jetty
Bro ur mog is literally nothing but a bandage shirt
shut up 
buoyant gyro
Since they can be easily spun up or even outsourced
wind furnace
seaosn pass should generate enough money
buoyant gyro
I mean I’ve used the same xmog that is like 8 year old items all xpac so
pale jetty
its a bandage shirt because leather transmog sucks ass
buoyant gyro
Can’t really say I’m a big fan of SL looks 😛
mellow urchin
but i think they will put it on the game pass and go more into creating store content
for sure
pale jetty
why cant i be a blood elf male in biker clothes dude
where's my gachi costume
leather either looks like 5 pixels melding into your skin, or it doesnt look like leather
buoyant gyro
But the plus side is maybe if they were less focused on the sub model they could chill on some of the stretching of content and grind mechanics. Idk. They feel so chained to the current model it’s gotten unhealthy for the game.
pale jetty
whats the point of even restricting transmogs from gear you can equip but isnt for your class
i can wear cloth but cant transmog it
???
hoary zephyr
I have one of the most rarest rogue mog in the game but it looks like dogshit
mellow urchin
why cant i be a blood elf male in biker clothes dude
the metaverse will bring weird mog into the game
pale jetty
i hope dude
i wish
WoW is an mmorpg at its base still
people want to fuck around with their characters
hoary zephyr
mellow urchin
its their definition of it, some fucking buzzword replacement for already existing marketing stuff
pale jetty
what is that like s1 s2 mop?
pale jetty
i see
hoary zephyr
I have seen more rogue CM gold set than this
Rogues were dogshit that season for pvp
You had to pick between Prep, Shadow Step and 90 energy cost Burst of Speed
Talent choices
Btw
wind furnace
Art resources are effectively infinite
that explains why we only get re-colors 🤔
hoary zephyr
And smoke bomb was removed from prep after cata into mop
So you didn’t have double bomb anymore
buoyant gyro
I mean honestly I don’t care too much about shifts in xmog model if it brought way more players to the game again and maybe un-fucked their model for content development.
buoyant gyro
Players numbers are just too low atm
pale jetty
LEATHER
wind furnace
is it even 2m active players now?
hoary zephyr
To transition
pale jetty
is it even 2m active players now?
i think its around 1.6-2
buoyant gyro
is it even 2m active players now?
Possibly not at this point. Probably a bit lower now. It seems fairly bad currently.
autumn jungle
Btw it just got into my head, MS will also have to consider that a lot of WoW players prob already have game pass so the increase is not gonna be equivalent to how many wow players there are
hoary zephyr
But gamepass has the potential to bring more players in
pale jetty
putting it on game pass just allows more people to see the game and play it
meaning they get to add more cosmetics to store to make up for it
hoary zephyr
My brother has never played WoW but has gamepass, he said he will be willing to try WoW if it’s on GP
That’s the goal
pale jetty
who wouldnt be willing to try it
hoary zephyr
Ya
pale jetty
it costs them nothing
autumn jungle
I guess that makes sense
pale jetty
and they can still keep expac model
robust lotus
Wow x gucci collab when
pale jetty
ok ngl i might get hate for this but
i would love to have clothes like that in game lmao
buoyant gyro
Game Pass has almost 20 million subscribers atm
pale jetty
i just want casual clothing
wind furnace
autumn jungle
Yeah I would like some modern life looking clothes like in ff
buoyant gyro
ESO on console has higher MAUs than WoW at this point afaik
wind furnace
400k in eu/na + ~200k in other regions
pale jetty
2B pants got me
autumn jungle
You mean no pants
hoary zephyr
i just want casual clothing
There are a lot of casual clothing
pale jetty
yeah that you can use for one month in a special event
then bye bye
thanks blizz
i cant wear a fucking tuxedo
outside of easter
how does that even make sense
wind furnace
so if the site is somewhat correct, we look at around 1m players
whats alarmingly low
pale jetty
eh is it really that low
content draught in an expansion that's regarded as one of the worst ever released
hoary zephyr
@pale jetty
pale jetty
okay that's not very casual and it looks like trash though (not the mog but the resolution)
like your boots are straight out of 2004
hoary zephyr
That’s because they were made in 2004
pale jetty
yes
hoary zephyr
They are classic WoW boots
pale jetty
i know
you cant find that shit now
the models rn are so clunky and big or just hurt the eyes
autumn jungle
Bro get venthyr leggings, they are black too and look much better
pale jetty
im using venthyr leggings
mellow urchin
Players numbers are just too low atm
i mean EU wow is booming
theres like hundreds of groups up
for dungeons
and raids
hoary zephyr
Really?
pale jetty
hoary zephyr
I mean mmo popularity in NA isn’t that much tbh
hoary zephyr
There are a lot more BR/FPS interest here
pale jetty
yeah NA likes to shoot
buoyant gyro
lol WoW is a ghost town for me most of the time at this point. Hardly know anyone who isn’t raid logging
autumn jungle
yeah NA likes to shoot
Still not the best in it
hoary zephyr
Jesus
pale jetty
NA has a lot too
buoyant gyro
Game like WoW really should have tens of thousands of dungeon groups not hundreds.
hoary zephyr
Also it’s 2 pm on a Sunday
pale jetty
there's maybe like 40 groups up rn on NA
yeah but you dont pug past 10 pm
thats a rule
if you play on NA, you dont pug past 10 pm
robust lotus
NA omeg
pale jetty
unless you want to be bombarded with real degens and OCE players saying "i play NA ping all the time" then dcing every 5 seconds
buoyant gyro
WoW players have just been slowly normalized to the shrinkage of the game they have forgotten when an active mmo looks like 😛
pale jetty
just log into ff
walk around a city
literally so many players it doesnt load them all
buoyant gyro
WoW out there looking more like Destiny town lobbies than MMO towns 😦
pale jetty
and that's with them cutting off sales btw
and stopping trials
its not like WoW doesn't have potential
they just introduce all these zones and areas that have nothing
ill be honest, i havent touched maldraxxus ever
in my life
i did the quest when SL started
and ive literally forgotten about the zone
mellow urchin
WoW players have just been slowly normalized to the shrinkage of the game they h...
i think you ppl are just too slow to update yourself on how this game works these days
hoary zephyr
Also having competition also affected player base (FF14)
hoary zephyr
It’s a seasonal game
pale jetty
mmorpg experience baby
mellow urchin
and its been like that for years
pale jetty
love it
nova nexus
i’d love to kill time wandering around a bit enjoying mogs
wind furnace
the amount of groups for dungeon groups is also fairly low tho
nova nexus
instead it’s empty and just spamming lfg
mellow urchin
its no longer a game where ur meant to hook up with randoms in trade chat
pale jetty
and its been like that for years
its been like that because they refuse to do anything with world content
wind furnace
the point stays similar, the wow playerbase just needs a bigger pool of players
mellow urchin
i swear ppl dont want world content
hoary zephyr
its no longer a game where ur meant to hook up with randoms in trade chat
Go to Moonguard NA for that
pale jetty
yes they do
hoary zephyr
pale jetty
BFA unironically had way more to do
wind furnace
people do like optional content like secrets, mage tower, chromie, etc.
nova nexus
CE raiders don’t want world content tied to player power. people want world content.
pale jetty
i could go to invasion zones, mechagon, borasslus
could actually encounter other players
mellow urchin
invasions
pale jetty
try finding another player in the open world
mellow urchin
engaging content
nova nexus
OMG you said PVP
mellow urchin
once the player power was sucked out of any world content its dead
pale jetty
"people dont want world content"
buoyant gyro
i think you ppl are just too slow to update yourself on how this game works thes...
Uhh. I mean most WoW players aren’t interested in running M+20s and a couple hundred high end group finder groups ain’t really doing anything for the majority of players who wanna log on and play WoW.
pale jetty
entire playerbase cries over TI
nova nexus
i liked the wm battles except for not being able to move
pale jetty
people want world content
mellow urchin
Uhh. I mean most WoW players aren’t interested in running M+20s and a couple hun...
what do you do instead
pale jetty
just not the garbage blizz gives us
buoyant gyro
Also I feel like your description is exactly reflective of wows small player base
If all WoW is is a lobby for people queuing M+
That isn’t an active mmo
nova nexus
collect mounts collect mogs
mellow urchin
sit around?
pale jetty
Uhh. I mean most WoW players aren’t interested in running M+20s and a couple hun...
ive tried that too, affixes are beyond boring
nova nexus
play the ah
buoyant gyro
I mean most games actually have content? 😛
nova nexus
have player housing to decorate
mellow urchin
do they?
pale jetty
yes they do
mellow urchin
isnt ff14 the same
mellow urchin
except you sit in a hub and you dress naked and spam some weird ass dance
pale jetty
unless i was crafting
FATEs in ff absolutely shit on world quests in WoW
that's just the truth
mellow urchin
i dont consider world quests content
pale jetty
yeah but they're supposed to be
mellow urchin
nah
buoyant gyro
WoWs content releases at this point is embarrassingly slow. One little zone every 6-12 months is not really gonna keep people attached to the game.
mellow urchin
world quests is the most boring shit ever, i'd bet "FATES" is shit too
pale jetty
its not
mellow urchin
well for me it prob is
pale jetty
people literally make fate trains
nova nexus
WQ should be content. and not just saving turtles then killing turtles.
pale jetty
ive stayed up 2 whole days unintentionally farming open world content in ff
buoyant gyro
We’re not talking about hardcore M+ grinders or mythic raiders. Those aren’t the majority demographics if you look at say the full set of players who bought SL at launch.
pale jetty
try doing that in WoW
mellow urchin
i mean yea there are sickos in wow that clear every wq on the map, even rn
buoyant gyro
The 8m players who don’t want to do that just quit
pale jetty
you said it yourself
buoyant gyro
😛
pale jetty
sickos
and probably there's liek what
50 people that do that
dont get me wrong, i dont prefer ff completely over WoW
wind furnace
WoWs content releases at this point is embarrassingly slow. One little zone ever...
this so much
mellow urchin
We’re not talking about hardcore M+ grinders or mythic raiders. Those aren’t the...
idk, when they add compelling world content, casuals complain its too difficult
there is no winning
buoyant gyro
No they don’t
pale jetty
casuals havent complained about half the shit people say they did
mellow urchin
you cant win vs the horde of shitters that just want stuff handed down
pale jetty
and the most aggravating example is gear acquisition and mythic raiding
nova nexus
people complaining about it haven’t played since legion
mellow urchin
look at the mage tower, they had to spend more than 20 minutes on something and its fucking trash and should get nerfed, "impossible" even.
nova nexus
the last legit World Content complaint was no path to actually acquire any gear
pale jetty
the problem with mage tower was that it was advertised as something it wasnt
buoyant gyro
Reddit or Discord talking about casuals when they really have no clue what casual players are actually like. Casual players just want quests and random shit to do that isn’t a confusing mess of systems and abstract grinds like AP with no payoff to them.
Mage tower is not casual content at all
pale jetty
mage tower is supposed to be a challenge
buoyant gyro
Mage tower was targeted 100% at hardcore players
Casuals just tried to do it because it’s the only new thing added to the game in like 5 months
pale jetty
also, to be fair, blizz fucked up with mage tower and timewalking big time
mellow urchin
Reddit or Discord talking about casuals when they really have no clue what casua...
this already exists then
nova nexus
My dear wife, who is casual, loved just using the free trial to run around collecting herbs and exploring.
mellow urchin
lots of random and easy quests
pale jetty
them hard nerfing all timewalking items was stupid
buoyant gyro
I mean there was
But you can’t sit on the release game for this long
WoW has added fuck all for content since SL launched
pale jetty
^
mellow urchin
this happens to any game
nova nexus
total wow casual. not so casual with animal crossing. lol
pale jetty
ive played almost every mmorpg under the sun
nova nexus
it happens when your dev cycle is slower than grass growing in a below zero winter wonderland.
pale jetty
yes ofc especially if its seasonal
buoyant gyro
Sure but it’s all about retention and churn rates
mellow urchin
blizzards goal is not to keep people playing 8 hours a day for 2 years straight
pale jetty
every game loses players
buoyant gyro
WoWs model is extremely casual unfriendly
pale jetty
blizzards goal is not to keep people playing 8 hours a day for 2 years straight
oh yeah?
wind furnace
wow release shedule is twice as long as bfa
wind furnace
and bfa was slower than legion
mellow urchin
pale jetty
blizz has been trying to maximize playtime for god knows how long
mellow urchin
sure man
onyx glade
sub is venth again? ...................
wind furnace
also most optional content that existed in lehion got slowly cut/phased out in bfa/sl
mellow urchin
the boogieman is real too
buoyant gyro
They put all their eggs in the basket of M+ (which is wholly inaccessible for all but hardcores) and raids and do fuck all to release new content regularly that isn’t some confusing systems grind with 927575 steps that requires reading 8 wowhead guides to understand.
mellow urchin
Bobby Kotick ran down to the offices 2x a day to stare at devs trying to make a game and been telling them to make more money
mellow urchin
you think its for player retention?
pale jetty
scratching your ass? time gated
pale jetty
dude
blizz literally has been doing this for years
to the point where it is completely predictable
nova nexus
no point in stopping until they see $$$ 📉
tawdry tree
but the game is dying sooooooo....
mellow urchin
you mistake bad game design or lack of game devs for deliberate retention mechanics
pale jetty
WoW revenue was up for the majority of 2021
tawdry tree
dotdotdot
pale jetty
which is why they added like no changes until near the end
buoyant gyro
They time gate stuff because they can’t make content fast enough and have to stretch every little thing out 8x longer than it’s natural lifetime to make up for it. 😛
mellow urchin
WoW revenue was up for the majority of 2021
certainly not because of some fairytale retention mechanic
pale jetty
it is for player retention
mellow urchin
lmao
tawdry tree
im diggin the new raid, but that is ALL of my interest in the game, I don't log in to do daily stuff any longer
pale jetty
which is why they're trying to shift away from it
mellow urchin
wow JPS, you should call up kotaku, maybe you can get an interview
with all this inside knowledge
pale jetty
its not inside knowledge
mellow urchin
pale jetty
its called playing the game
mellow urchin
sure
pale jetty
and not huffing liters of copium every minute im on wow
mellow urchin
its called assuming the worst
in every situation
bad game = must be nefarious money reasons
nova nexus
its called assuming the worst
like how sub will be next tier?
buoyant gyro
WoW tries to position itself as a seasonal game then can’t manage to patch the game more than once a year these days. It’s just not sufficient. Players know the game isn’t heathy when that is happening.
pale jetty
ugh push im not doing this dude
actually cba
been having the same conversation since legion with people
mellow urchin
you should stop having this conversation
nova nexus
push how would you define a casual player?
pale jetty
its always the same convo, and its always "wtf blizz not listening xd?"
mellow urchin
its possible to disagree with you and leave the game without giving you some fucking victory
pale jetty
its not some victory
i dont get pleasure from people leaving the game?
i still pay and want to play it
do you not understand that people want the game to get better
wind furnace
but... covid... its all covid koji
pale jetty
rather than pretending its good when its fucking bleeding players like a hemophiliac
mellow urchin
i will never believe the retention mechanic bullshit, never
pale jetty
okay, choose to do that, but its been done and is being rid of now
for a reason
it was a shit idea
mellow urchin
make a good game and ppl will play it, gatekeep "good changes" for the sake of "resubs next patch" is the most dumb shit ive heard
pale jetty
-.-
nova nexus
nobody is pretending its good
this suggests it is good
mellow urchin
this suggests it is good
ye theres players playing
doesnt mean i think its a good game atm
nova nexus
or are there just people playing it in your circle
pale jetty
people will always play wow
buoyant gyro
I think they originally moved towards AP to provide a long-tail mechanic as a reaction to the lack of WoD content leading to player leaving. At this point they seem to just do it out of habit and because their content production schedule is ass. Cleary does little for retention.
pale jetty
its never going to fully die
pale jetty
I think they *originally* moved towards AP to provide a long-tail mechanic as a ...
literally this
pale jetty
no it doesnt
it is what they do to try to keep players
because they cant put in content
pale jetty
how is that against my point
you said you dont believe in retention
but adding timegated content to keep players due to no content addition isnt retention?
mellow urchin
i believe they want to create things that ppl can do if they want to play the game
i dont think they are holding off good changes to make it a BIG REVEAL next patch
mellow urchin
i think its just bad design
pale jetty
push
mellow urchin
lmao
pale jetty
im hoping its diff this time
mellow urchin
just nah
wind furnace
I think they *originally* moved towards AP to provide a long-tail mechanic as a ...
the initial plan for ap was to have a progression system like exp on max level
mellow urchin
you actually think they create shit design ideas for the sake of "learning" in the next patch
its just stupid
pale jetty
no but they do hold off on things they can easily add into the game for purposes of getting subs back
or no sorry wait
free cov swapping was a bad idea until they added it right
they totally didnt intentionally hold off on that
mellow urchin
why wouldnt they just do that right away, and keep playres playing and goodwill high
pale jetty
LOL
buoyant gyro
i dont think they are holding off good changes to make it a BIG REVEAL next patc...
I think you’re right here. I think they just can’t produce stuff very quickly now. I don’t think it’s some grand plan. I think it’s just a coping mechanism for them not being able to keep up with demand.
mellow urchin
everytime blizzard does this "we have learned from our mistakes" shit they lose player faith, its a VERY BAD idea to keep doing it if you plan to make money in the future
wind furnace
the problem is
pale jetty
and nobody is looking
mellow urchin
I think you’re right here. I think they just can’t produce stuff very quickly no...
legit just think its bad ideas, bad leadership or simply no time to iterate on it and little faith in the playerbase to know what they want
wind furnace
the entire situation of slowing down in development and having longer content cycles is just a trend that seemingly continues to get worse
and its not a problem that started just now, it started in bfa
pale jetty
its hard to tell what exactly it is causing them to rely on these timegated mechanisms
mellow urchin
i think SL lost a patch, a whole patch just got removed
and its why we have 8-9 month cycles
they cut it out
pale jetty
its hard to tell what exactly it is causing them to rely on these timegated mech...
well lack of content, but why exactly is what i meant
mellow urchin
and moved on
wind furnace
so the problem is now at least 4 years old, what is a lot of time to adress such problems
buoyant gyro
SL is just really bad to be like slowest patch cycles ever and only 2 patches then throw their hands up and ask for $60 more for the next xpac. It’s not feeling great.
pale jetty
WoW has decent ideas, just bad execution and too little
mellow urchin
BFA had decent timing, we even thought it was too fast in BoD to EP
cus we had no time to do uunat
buoyant gyro
I really liked SL initially but the post launch support has been absolutely awful
mellow urchin
so this is not something that has happened over 4 years
its quite literally a SL problem
buoyant gyro
Reddit meme the other day was kinda correct
mellow urchin
Legion had insane content releases cus WoD was also cut in half
so they had 1-2 more years
to work on Legion
pale jetty
well lets hope the next expac is like that
buoyant gyro
It’s like the design problems from BfA and the content problems from WoD. lol
Put together
pale jetty
exactly lol
pale jetty
he didnt say that
mellow urchin
BfA had a systems issue, filled with trash systems
pale jetty
bfa had pretty good content i agree
i personally had a good time in bfa other than high end content
there was a good amount of stuff to do when you're just chilling
wind furnace
bfa already did slow down in content amount and release cycles
pale jetty
and the high end was decent
mellow urchin
you went from having legendaries, artifact weapons, special effect trinkets to azerite..
wind furnace
but sl is a lot more extreme
pale jetty
^
mellow urchin
bfa already did slow down in content amount and release cycles
only 8.3 lasted long
and the last patch
always lasts longer
even legions last patch
8.3 is what we left BfA on, but it was horribly long
wind furnace
a slowdown of around 15% in content cycles is not that noticable
mellow urchin
so that might skew your perception of content releases in bfa
wind furnace
thats what happened in legion -> bfa
buoyant gyro
BfA content was decent. Had some flaws but overall I don’t think that was the issue with BfA at all.
mellow urchin
ye cus a whole patch of content was probably cut
mellow urchin
imagine if you could fit 1 more patch between 9.0 and 9.2, you would not have these long droughts
pale jetty
imagine if you could fit 1 more patch between 9.0 and 9.2, you would not have th...
yeah they def scrapped
mellow urchin
then it would be similar to bfa
pale jetty
just look at the story
pale jetty
it is?
pale jetty
its 10 bosses
mellow urchin
11
pale jetty
11*
mellow urchin
but some bosses were probably moved
pale jetty
okay but how is that 1.5 patches
pale jetty
o.o
buoyant gyro
Issue with BfA was just annoying systems design with Azerite and stuff like essences for alts and Corruption pre-vendor.
pale jetty
i am not caught up on sepulcher i guess
mellow urchin
Anduin and the last 3 can prob all be considered the KT + Sylvanas of a tier
pale jetty
it legit has 4 end bosses?
nova nexus
BFA was playing dev catch-up fixing their fucked systems
mellow urchin
ye they admitted to cooking up essences mid expansion in bfa
buoyant gyro
SL has all the annoying systems choices from BfA. And the same content problems from WoD. Was what the meme was. And I think it’s probably fairly true.
mellow urchin
which meant there was basically 0 time spent on class design after 8.1
and they just abandoned azerite after 8.1
except for the raid traits
buoyant gyro
Content wise outside of raid BfA actually felt quite solid
pale jetty
mellow urchin
unironically think the removal of TF has hurt m+ a lot for "casuals"
nova nexus
Content wise outside of raid BfA actually felt quite solid
was it solid refarming the same azerite pieces over and over ?
wind furnace
a lot of positive changes sl made in 9.1.5 are chanegs that are usually done earlier in the attempt to iterate on systems
buoyant gyro
In my experiences casuals can’t even engage with M+ at all
pale jetty
and instead slapping you in the face with corruption
wind furnace
yet they are sold as content
nova nexus
the actual casuals pay the bills
wind furnace
In my experiences casuals can’t even engage with M+ at all
they do ^^
pale jetty
but yeah even mega casuals do m+
buoyant gyro
Blizzard basically killed dungeons for casuals by assuming they could engage with low M+ keys the same way they did Heroic queues or something
wind furnace
but i guess casual can be defined diffrently
mellow urchin
there was more reasons to play m+ back in BFA and Legion cus of WF/TF
buoyant gyro
The conversion rate isn’t remotely the same
The barrier to entry in using group finder manually apping to groups and shit is orders of magnitudes higher
pale jetty
i think WF and TF was a bad system tbh, but not having any bonuses might make m+ seem more "boring"
they could do something with a currency/cosmetics in game system
buoyant gyro
I know a lot of friends who pick up WoW just for xpac launches
pale jetty
make grinding m+ give something for vanity purposes
that will get casuals invested in it too
robust lotus
9.2 is a good step to providing more value to content that isn't raiding
buoyant gyro
And I’m not kidding when I say there are many of them that literally have never done a M+
In 3 xpacs
nova nexus
that will get casuals invested in it too
re colored mounts. 😇
pale jetty
yeah koji i have friends that are the same
mellow urchin
there are many variants of casuals
pale jetty
re colored mounts. 😇
i mean yeah this is like the lowest effort they can do and its still good
buoyant gyro
And these were people who would run daily Heroics every day
Back when they were a thing
mellow urchin
but i dont think its fair to say that a majority of casuals isnt doing pve content
buoyant gyro
Blizz just actually killed casual dungeons for a lot of people lol
mellow urchin
if you look at numbers for normal/heroic raid
theres a lot of ppl doing them
like probably more than you'd think
even giga casuals
buoyant gyro
i forget heroic dungeons exist now
I mean Blizz made them totally irrelevant in BfA
pale jetty
my only hope is that when they add things like the raid etc, they move to focus on other aspects of the game and add more content, even if its tiny bits of content that have no major imapct on gameplay
buoyant gyro
Basically killed the feature
pale jetty
i mean yeah you never run heroics
pale jetty
its just sad because there's so much potential
nova nexus
you run them at the start of an expansion and that’s about it.
buoyant gyro
Not even sure you do that now do you? lol
mellow urchin
they should unlock timewalking, why is it timegated, make everything in the game timewalkable
nova nexus
you did in 9.0
pale jetty
they should unlock timewalking, why is it timegated, make everything in the game...
THIS
why
at least have it on a constant cycle?
pale jetty
yes but like maybe cycle some of the content per day or week
pale jetty
adding all the content will spread the playerbase thin
or maybe like
add it all into a queue
mellow urchin
ye perhaps
pale jetty
you queue and it will randomly select one
mellow urchin
might be why
the 5 ppl that want to do cataclysm dungeons
will have a hard time finding a group
pale jetty
yeah
so cycle or add it all into a random queue i guess
but sometimes we will go weeks without any timewalking
mellow urchin
they have the tech
afaik
to just
tune everything
in the game
to whatever ilvl value
they want
buoyant gyro
TW could be leveraged way more
mellow urchin
like they accidently made molten core a current raid in some patch
buoyant gyro
Also Blizz needs to stop making shit irrelevant arbitrarily though
TW being available wouldn’t stop it from not giving anything useful
mellow urchin
i mean just make the gear similar to heroic ilvl
buoyant gyro
It’s barely even relevant ilevel for fresh characters lol
buoyant gyro
No idea why
buoyant gyro
Considering they can literally tune TW however they want to
pale jetty
i think like the raids and dungeons are in their heroic versions
buoyant gyro
And yes they are
mellow urchin
i mean the old content + heroics could give a currency like valor but for a tier lower
pale jetty
so
buoyant gyro
Yeah I agree
pale jetty
justice points
pale jetty
mists of pandaria
buoyant gyro
It’d be a good model for more casual or alt play
pale jetty
basically
wind furnace
TW could be leveraged way more
i think blizz just does a rly bad job in content conservation
nova nexus
i could buy my EoN next tier by farming time walking. sign me up.
wind furnace
old content just dies
mellow urchin
i mean the game has 17 years of content and 16 years of those are just lost
nova nexus
recycled into classic
pale jetty
imagine if they did like the FF system
they bring back an old raid in a higher difficulty that actually gears you
mellow urchin
one thing i hope is that microsoft will look at the products blizzard has and somehow magically see the untapped values in old content
mellow urchin
one thing acti-blizz is terrible at doing is preserving IP
pale jetty
like what if they brought back obsidian sanctum with revamped mechanics and a much higher difficulty
mellow urchin
killed starcraft for no reason
killed all but cod for activision
why
the company has been run as a place that only want short-term gains
and completely ignore long term
pale jetty
i think they just milk and depend on players coming back tbh
i really dont know why they take these design decisions
the game can still be salvaged and turned around
im just hoping we get SL over with and go into an expansion that will give WoW a better rep
mellow urchin
pale jetty
but like koji said
it feels like shit that they're just gonna throw their hands up after no content
and make us pay for an expac
in hopes that it is better
mellow urchin
i honestly dont care personally, as long as they release a raid every now and then, i have my group of ppl in the game already. If they quit or my guild dies i am also quitting the game
thats just how it is for me
pale jetty
i mean yeah same, im always gonna have people to play with to clear content
mellow urchin
no sentimental value to it
wind furnace
reality is the game makes a shitton of money
pale jetty
but i guess i also enjoy a lot more casual aspects of the game
wind furnace
with the paymend model they have now
wind furnace
and the amount of money it generates did not go down
mellow urchin
the token is carrying
boosting has increased so much
and ppl pay with tokens
and the thing is
the boost buyers
are often the boosters themselves
goes into some weird ass circle
buoyant gyro
Yeah I mean it often is just boosters cycling to boost alts or friends lol
pale jetty
blizz is whale farming
wind furnace
whales also leave if the playerbase becomes to low
mellow urchin
for sure
wind furnace
blizz games have tbh the most loyal player base
mellow urchin
but if wow ends up on the game pass
wind furnace
so it seems that the idea is to bank on that?
mellow urchin
they legit dont have to care about subs anymore
mellow urchin
i assume microsoft will find that a large number of loyal wow players are not subscribing to the game pass, and gain a lot of subs
wind furnace
and there wouldn't be to much more effort to be put into a season pass
what would allow them to monetize even free to play
reality is it won't change before riots mmo
mellow urchin
i dont believe in riots mmo
pale jetty
who knows
mellow urchin
a lot of ppl have riot hopium
pale jetty
riot has a way of stealing players
mellow urchin
do they?
pale jetty
yes
mellow urchin
is valorant popping?
pale jetty
it is
mellow urchin
valorant and csgo?
pale jetty
valorant is pretty much a csgo clone
mellow urchin
valorant has abilities and shit
pale jetty
yeah but thats the only diff
mellow urchin
its like some OW/csgo
plucky storm
valorant and csgo?
A lot of professional valorant players used to be csgo players
They all swapped over
pale jetty
i mean thats why i played valorant
because i loved csgo
and valorant is just better rn
csgo still on 64 tick somehow
mellow urchin
valve is notorious for giving up on their own titles
mellow urchin
they have started their transition to shit on dota as well
dota hasnt seen a major patch in almost a year
only valve would do that
wind furnace
valorant does win over a lot of csgo players, it was initially overhyped but it is in the end a better csgo
pale jetty
i mean i wont complain if riot's mmo is shit or good
obv i hope its good so i have more content personally as a consumer
mellow urchin
i think its hard to release an MMO and compete with the old ones
pale jetty
that's true
winged fiber
blizz is notorious for killing their IPs
Facts just look at overwatch
mellow urchin
starcraft
pale jetty
warcraft
hoary zephyr
SC, HS, OW
pale jetty
every IP
mellow urchin
HS?
pale jetty
has been slaughtered
delicate osprey
also heroes of thee storm
mellow urchin
hearthstone is like the one thing thats popping off
pale jetty
WoW is literally like
delicate osprey
hearthstone normal mode as in the card game is also dying
pale jetty
last man standing
hoary zephyr
All died because Act’s aggressive push
delicate osprey
people like the auto battler one