cus you get so many stacks
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
steel meadow
i remember there was a discussion about it with sims, but couldnt find it
thx for answer tho
mellow urchin
i am not sure exactly when you want to stab tho
wind furnace
on 6 stacks, not to close to the end of dance
mellow urchin
Why does the timing of the stab matter
wind furnace
because you lose strike casts
wind furnace
well dance is 8 secs
so the question is if its better to always use bs reguardless of remaining duration of dance
or don't use it during the last 2 secs or so
mellow urchin
well i dont see why you wouldnt lose strike casts if you did it with 3 seconds remaining compared to 1 sec
in both situations its just 1 gcd
and its always replacing a strike?
wind furnace
to get your example
if you are on the last gcd so 1 sec remaining
the question becomes, is it worth to use backstab in dance
or take the "lost stack" and use it after dance
quartz idol
I also don't see why duration matters, only thing I can think of is maybe you are fishing for blades at the start of dance so you have it for the rest of dance
mellow urchin
3 sec: shadowstrike-shadowstrike-evis-shadowstrike-backstab-evis-shadowstrike-shadowstrike
1 sec: shadowstrike-shadowstrike-evis-shadowstrike-shadowstrike-evis-shadowstrike-backstab
whats the difference
mellow urchin
I also don't see why duration matters, only thing I can think of is maybe you ar...
but that should mean using it late would be better
quartz idol
is it using it early now?
wind furnace
unsure what you ask push
quartz idol
ah, then I guess its something about using it early means you can 'maybe' get another 6 stack by the end of it since it procs off of so many things
wind furnace
the diffrence is that the last backstab could be used after dance
mellow urchin
i think the rule shouldnt even exist, i think it should just check for buffs
livid ferry
It matters
wind furnace
what would mean that you would get another strike
mellow urchin
but that defeats the entire purpose of the change
wind furnace
so the question is:
shadowstrike-shadowstrike-evis-shadowstrike-shadowstrike-evis-shadowstrike-strike
shadowstrike-shadowstrike-evis-shadowstrike-shadowstrike-evis-shadowstrike-backstab
whats the diffrence?
mellow urchin
the change is there because you get too many stacks, there is virtually no scenario where you wont have 6 stacks before the dance is over
with the 9.2 set
livid ferry
Also when i tried backstab in dance on ptr it didnt seem very powerful
mellow urchin
it sims well, but its probably harder to execute ingame
livid ferry
How well
livid ferry
And what leges
livid ferry
What stack threshold
mellow urchin
which means even more stacks
6
wasnt it found that it might even be a gain on live
livid ferry
Idk maybe
mellow urchin
either way
livid ferry
Prob neutral
mellow urchin
ive played with it on PTR and its kinda clunky
quartz idol
you wouldn't really get that situation on live though
livid ferry
Ye
wind furnace
but questions like this are easy handled by a sim
livid ferry
But ye it feels clunky and unintuitive to stab in dance
wind furnace
"to what degree is losing a stack worth it" more or less
livid ferry
I think with shadow blades up its a no brainer lol
mellow urchin
But ye it feels clunky and unintuitive to stab in dance
it also feels bad to sit at 6 stacks and only be halfway through dance
livid ferry
Sure ig
livid ferry
Ye same
livid ferry
Also akaari dmg
livid ferry
Idk
mellow urchin
also the concept of gcds in dance
is kinda fucked in 9.2
cus you can literally be evis'ing back to back
and still get shadowstrikes
idk, its a bit weird
livid ferry
Ye
mossy carbon
Is it correct that, once all bugs are fixed, a 4pc proc with two targets in 15 yards would give you 4 stacks of PV?
mossy carbon
2 from strike and 2 from akaari
steel meadow
why akaari should give it
steel meadow
thats weird
mellow urchin
so running PV could be more funnel
in aoe
if you keep getting PV stacks
can just do a lil stab between storm/evis
steel meadow
should be nice at 2-3 targets
steel meadow
what is this
wind furnace
the answer to pushs "why does it matetr"
default = the apl condition that considers dance lengh
new = the apl condition without considering it
current apl is what is in raidbots atm
wind furnace
wdym double stab?
livid ferry
Or is it cause its getting way more amped by shadow blades
Try a condition that makes it only consume stacks in dance if you also have shadow blades up
wind furnace
its better but still worse
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4EmSAPVQHsNb4H6RLhGkXU
livid ferry
But do you understand what he was trying to say
The timing should be irrelevant
Whether it is at the statt
Or the ass end
You are still substituting a global in dance, with backstab
In either scenario
livid ferry
Yes obviously
wind furnace
and delaying the bs cast for 1 gcd might be beneficial if its the last gcd of dance
livid ferry
Why does that matter
livid ferry
wind furnace
yes but thats a diffrent topic
wind furnace
no, i just thought there was still open questions on it
livid ferry
Try combining the 2 conditions
The end of dance thing
And also the shadow blade thing
livid ferry
Ah ok
clear zephyr
Venthyr more likely to get top again without EoN in 9.2?
livid ferry
No
wind furnace
but unsure if its a win over not given i did run it with lower target error
so need to re-run without to compare
wind furnace
Venthyr more likely to get top again without EoN in 9.2?
kyrian > venthyr likely
just like it is atm with sylvanas dagger
clear zephyr
Ahh I see cool. Was told kyrian gained like 400 dps from the daggers in sim
wind furnace
the dagger def. contributes a fair bit to kyrian being better
clear zephyr
Makes sense
buoyant gyro
The timing should be irrelevant
I don’t think that’s quite accurate to say though. It’s irrelevant if you are only considering the value of the global itself. Timing is still relevant relative to stack overflow right? The value proposition shifts with the number of stacks you will potentially lose. That number starts large at current+potential-6 and goes smaller approaching 0 as you approach the end of dance.
livid ferry
Yea true
mellow urchin
I don’t think that’s quite accurate to say though. It’s irrelevant if you are on...
shouldnt this just be countered with a "stab when at 6"?
the entire reason its a topic tho
is cus of ingame ramifications
how ur meant to play this
wind furnace
"if you are on 6+ stacks and dance is over 3 sec left, use bs instead of strike"
you can for a marginal gain even limiit it further with "during shadowblades"
5+/6+ stacks both are similar in output if that is relevant for gameplay reasons
buoyant gyro
shouldnt this just be countered with a "stab when at 6"?
Yeah I’m just pointing out that timing is relevant because it’s part of the expected value. If you were to do it second global it’s damage+maybe 6 more stacks. If you do it at the last it’s damage+0 more stacks. Those aren’t going to be equal outcomes. Not that it may not be worth doing potentially, just trying to help explain the difference in evaluation.
mellow urchin
alright
wind furnace
outlaw probably too, assassination probably will
coarse quiver
should be one in ~2 hours today
feral schooner
If the nitro fuel bug stays
What bug?
hoary zephyr
unkempt peak
Still no rogue changes?
coarse quiver
not this week
unkempt peak
Yikes, so if the patch is gonna drop at the end of Feb or early March we have about 5-7 more weeks of tuning passes? So rogue tuning could be really last minute?
unkempt peak
I'm just hoping they can give tuning enough time, last minute tuning usually doesn't go too well. And I'm guessing they want to get the tier set right before they tune anything else?
Either that, or if fixing the bugs takes too long just don't nerf the set... Copium
mellow urchin
There will be nerfs
But since everyone will be nerfed
Are we actually getting nerfed
hoary zephyr
Our SS are gonna get capped (wait its already capped)
from 4 set
and duration of 2 set will be nerfed
I am leaning towards
(2-set) Shadowstrike has a 20% chance to grant Shadow Blades for 2.5/3.0 sec.
(4-set) Your finishing moves have a 4% chance per combo point to cast Shadowstrike at up to 3-4 nearby enemies.
instead of 5 seconds for 2 set, and 5 targets for 4 set
most likely 3 nearby targets
but honestly, even that isnt enough to nerf our set in power
lmao
winged fiber
2 set at 3 seconds would be fine
that way you're basically guaranteed to get 2 builders in it
4 seconds would be chill too
2.5 would be cursed
hoary zephyr
I honestly don't know what the fuck you can do it to nerf it
I mean
you can remove the cp generation
from the 4 set
I think that is a strong enough nerf
but the annoying thing is that our 2nd legendary (non covenant) is ass
mellow urchin
it might be so that only 2p is touched
since its.. the 2p
nerfing its duration by 50%
would probably put it at 5-6%?
which would mean the set is about 13-14%
not too wild
the 23.3% is with 2 legendaries
i mean i honestly think the total we get from set + extra legendary is going to be less than most classes/specs
mellow urchin
in a hypothetical scenario where the 2p is nerfed by about 50%
we would gain less than 18% from the set and legendary
cus of the reduced synergy between 2p and akaari
compare this to assa
neat dagger
one stupid question, but why stands there kyrian? sims this best on ST on ptr
mellow urchin
they get 25% from the combinations
mellow urchin
one stupid question, but why stands there kyrian? sims this best on ST on ptr
kyrian is best for ST on both live and ptr
feral schooner
What about nerfing 2-5% shadowstrike coming into the patch? We are already the best st class according to warcraflogs.
winged fiber
kinda fucks you until you get tier set if you nerf the base class too much
honestly the easiest tuning button is just 2 pc duration
feral schooner
honestly the easiest tuning button is just 2 pc duration
Or that
winged fiber
and then tuning the damage of the 4 pc shadowstrike
like you could make the 4pc shadowstrike do like 80% dam
mellow urchin
dont want to nerf it too much
winged fiber
would keep the smoothness of the playstyle without
gutting the %'s too much to make it rng fuckfest
mellow urchin
ur asking for like 50%+ nerfs
civic terrace
kinda fucks you until you get tier set if you nerf the base class too much
Kinda wary for that too
feral schooner
Then wouldn't it be better to nerf the baseline?
mellow urchin
nerfing the 2p is enough
civic terrace
But everyone is in the same boat tho
feral schooner
nerfing the 2p is enough
By how much?
mellow urchin
50%
feral schooner
So less shadowbaldes uptime aka less dam
winged fiber
and we're not op but still viable
mellow urchin
2-3 sec
winged fiber
yes
shadowblades = more dam + more cp which = more dance which = more dam
it's a feedback loop
mellow urchin
i feel like 2-3 sec would be ok, cus ur still extending ur shadowblade cds
winged fiber
2 seconds is a lil wonky tho
mellow urchin
so
civic terrace
Less blades uptime will interestingly enough lead to better playability too
winged fiber
where 3 seconds would make that not a thing
civic terrace
Probably
winged fiber
3 seconds = no matter what 2 builders
mellow urchin
that doesnt matter tho
winged fiber
true but
mellow urchin
you can get procs within that window
winged fiber
it feels nicer
winged fiber
lo ltrue
feral schooner
Is 2 pac fixed on ptr that it does not override our 3m shadowblades?
feral schooner
Oh yes sorry mb. Does it still?
feral schooner
Dam. Ok
mellow urchin
i assume they want to release the fixes with more rogue stuff
idk
or they want to fix all of the bugs at once
feral schooner
I doubt they fix dust prepull
feral schooner
True
mellow urchin
and they should fix dust prepull
winged fiber
they probably will
they usually fix stuff like that in between tiers
like how they fixed all the soulbind prepotting shit
in nathria going into this tier
feral schooner
and they should fix dust prepull
Idk how they would though? Just add essentially a condition that while not in combat vanish does not reset cds?
winged fiber
i mean they are game devs lol
mellow urchin
yea
winged fiber
i'm sure they'll figure out a way to code it
mellow urchin
its not like we would see the solution
but there is probably something
if they disabled the talent swapping shit, its barely worth doing the prepull stuff as kyrian
winged fiber
dude with venth
you can
quad dance on opener
with the current prepull shit
it's demonic
feral schooner
Lol true
mellow urchin
ye its not as good for kyrian
feral schooner
But cba on farm play whatever like push played nf if I recall or?
mellow urchin
for a reset ye
feral schooner
And how was it?
winged fiber
same as it was in nathria
basic af sub
legit just press it on cd and forget it lol
wind furnace
the easy solution to fix most of the talent switch shenanigans is to fix dark
mellow urchin
is it possible to sim the set
with 2p giving 2 or 3 seconds
of shadowblades
instead of 5
wind furnace
can do in 20 mins or so when i am on pc
mellow urchin
sure
wind furnace
Breakdown of 2p Values:
Keep in mind that this is with 4p active and 2 legendary powers (akaari + rc).
2p + 4p: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nnGDXQ7sJYFKvZf8Z7NhBS
only 4p: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7gLHmTfFtUSDRxvieyzr6z
2p nerfed 4s: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oH87QWpPgaWunaNFDTyyeL
2p nerfed 3s: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fRpUGQpWizrMhKBhSJaLXD
2p nerfed 2s: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/64KNzgo57AcCcHHfZHBbrP
So ye, 2p could get nerfed quite a bit potentially
wind furnace
because someone will else ask why this is showing a lower value? (2p/4p from pins)
It is because the 4p is not active for the 2p sim
also highlights that the 4p to 2p interaction is fairly strong
mellow urchin
i am a bit worried that our tier set will get nerfed into oblivion, ngl
our baseline is quite high
you see assa, fire mage, arcane mage all sim around 10.5k to 12k
wind furnace
i think nerfing the 2p is the least disruptive change
yes, but only to a certain degree, if its only 2 seconds i think it feels a lot worse
mellow urchin
and we sim more than that without a 2p
well ye
but its gonna feel worse
no matter what
since its a big nerf
but a big nerf is potentially needed
mellow urchin
yea ofc
but fire mage (the god tier raid spec) sims like 11k
with everything
we sim over 1k+ dps
above that
WITHOUT a 2p
wind furnace
i think the sim should be at least 300 dps or so to high
wind furnace
because i forgot to remove the shard
wind furnace
yes, the set alone is rly strong
not sure how strong assassination is rn tho
after the NF optimizations
mellow urchin
poaking at 12k
dps
you should try these sims with no daggers
or at least
1 dagger only
cus i dont think our sims are very realistic considering they are all done with double dagger
steel meadow
Did they fix obedience?
wind furnace
dungeon slice, giveme a sec
also moment, need to check if venthyr can play ns
with sylvanas dagger: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pi5ue3i34VYFJSZqvPFR6w
civic terrace
Kyrian still pumping, noice
civic terrace
wind furnace
idk
worn prawn
not to bad when you play around it
civic terrace
For slice it makes a lot of sense when you're spamming cheap builders a lot of the time tbh
wind furnace
its kind of insane how big the diffrence between sylvanas and eye dagger is
in terms of output
neat dagger
what leg is ns?
wind furnace
all of them are with akaaris + covenant lego
civic terrace
Ns is nightstalker
wind furnace
yes
civic terrace
Tier 2 talent
civic terrace
Youd just play vent anyway tbh, funnel too stronk
mellow urchin
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uSx8HT4zVEkMyx9ApkhBtq>
bro look at the fucking dps range of venthyr, wtf is that
venthyr NS rng range
is absolutely insane
wind furnace
proc dependency ^^
neat dagger
it is only ST or? the sims
wind furnace
tbh there might be some minor improvements for ns
wind furnace
priority rotation with 5 targets
mellow urchin
venthyr ns stonks
wind furnace
there is a possibility that considering procs can be positive for shd threasholds
but that might be not nice gameplay wise
because it means you rely even more on 
for procs
mellow urchin
without:<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rHBN839RuaAG9t6hzTmfyh>
interesting that we're simming the exact same as now without daggers
and no dom set
i think i will try play the build with least rng
if theres one thing i hate in this game its reliance on good/bad rng
wind furnace
necro might be less rng than kyrian
mellow urchin
steel meadow
wind furnace
mellow urchin
imagine
playing necro
thats too far
i could have the worst rng on kyrian and its prob better than avg necro
wind furnace
tbh sylvanas daggers rly make a good case for kyrian
worn prawn
i miss necro, i loved playing it in CN
mellow urchin
but its not about sylv daggers
you see that kyrian is ahead
even without daggers
neat dagger
and in terms to m+ is akari our choice for the second lego? i thought finality would be the go to
mellow urchin
@wind furnace
wind furnace
with eon
mellow urchin
this is from ur "no dagger ST sim"
kyrian just seem way better
for everything ST
less rng, more dps
wind furnace
ye
mellow urchin
ofc it also means dropping the daggers
but if they get nerfed it might be our reality
spiral basalt
We dont have next tier profiles yet right?
civic terrace
That makes sense when you can finish a lot
plucky storm
We dont have next tier profiles yet right?
No
Tier profiles usually happen much much closer to the patch
When things are finalized and everything tuned and all the trinkets are implemented etc
elder cloak
Think they're gonna nerf eon?
elder cloak
Have they nerfed gear in past tiers?
plucky storm
I think sub is the only spec that holds onto it
plucky storm
Have they nerfed gear in past tiers?
Yeah, but then there’s things like font inkpod coral
So it’s kinda hit or miss
mellow urchin
there are definitely cases of old items being played from 1 tier until the end of the expansion
wind furnace
outlaw probably holds onto it too
mellow urchin
the uunat tank weapons, pretty sure they were used until BFA ended
wind furnace
assassination will replace it earlier tho
worn prawn
Font of power, coral and shit
elder cloak
Just better for sub because it's shadow dam?
mellow urchin
more cps spent
elder cloak
Ah
mellow urchin
assa CP gen is like
40% worse
than sub
just random % number
but its a lot lower
so less procs and less dmg from those procs
elder cloak
Sin tier and dusk should juice it up a bit
Well at least I'll be able to use it in keys
wind furnace
elder cloak
Well if they don't hit sub tier pretty hard I might have to go sub in raid as well
wind furnace
giveme 5 mins, and maybe there is something to discuss
elder cloak
Okay, I will wait
mellow urchin
Sin tier and dusk should juice it up a bit
elder cloak
Maybe a few PIs will get us there 
wind furnace
sin has a 285 offhand slightly ahead of sylvanas
iirc
so it shouldn't hold onto it as long as sub with ~2% gain
wind furnace
coparison of all 4 covenants:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4CCLf5n7EJrYuRbpvjSisB/simc
for necro
mellow urchin
necro
worn prawn
wonder what that actually could be
wind furnace
seems a lot better in terms of variance
mellow urchin
idk man
worn prawn
damn daggers are actually kinda big for necro
guessing that also might have something to do with the execute dmg for necro
wind furnace
daggers are kinda big for all of them
worn prawn
NF stonks rising
wind furnace
i wouldn't mind playing NF
worn prawn
i wouldnt really mind any covenant tbh
worn prawn
yeah its insane, also Dreamweaver is nuts for prog
mellow urchin
ye
wind furnace
its funny tbh
i remember so many ppl hyping up the dos in beta
and sleeping on soulshape
topaz merlin
Wasn't that back when there was a soulbind trait that made it instant cast.
civic terrace
thats gonna be what we play
Why? 🤔
mellow urchin
kyrian pot sucks ass
worn prawn
mobility and another cheat
mellow urchin
^
its just
better soulbinds
prog wise
so if the dps loss is like 2%
its prob worth playing nf
rn its a bit more
lunar fractal
Imagine dying twice in a fight
wind furnace
maybe we need to convince blizz to buff nf
lunar fractal
Where is scarizard when you need him
wind furnace
isn't shb not affecting sepsis
would need to double check, but could be a easy buff to nf that... well also would buff sin
mellow urchin
how would it buff sin
wind furnace
just thinking about what could be done to buff nf for sub
wind furnace
changing ar to give lower gcd also would benefit sin and sub
steel meadow
imagine sub with 0.8
hoary zephyr
also
if the 2 set does get nerfed by 50%
the strength of the 2 set will definitely be strong when there are more targets presence
since the 4 set will proc it off
mellow urchin
my interpretation of Scarizards words about the sets (might be wrong) is that they look at them from a ST pov and while many have cleave/aoe implications, unless its like crazy its not something they really consider. Now that might just be a perversion of his words, but i remember him talking about this in wow-gen a few weeks ago.
hoary zephyr
my interpretation of Scarizards words about the sets (might be wrong) is that th...
right and I dont mind the 2 set being nerfed in that sense
because I think the idea of the set would basically just be, more targets = more SS = more chances/uptime on ShB
and tbh, there are quite a lot of fights in this raid that have adds
except like maybe the worm
and a few others
hoary zephyr
the 23.3% is with 2 legendaries
is this with bug fixes as well?
hoary zephyr
damn
hoary zephyr
yeah :/
mellow urchin
it becomes a lot
like sub WITHOUT a set, is beating fire mage with a set
in simc
wild
the nerf to fire mage last night was actually massive, not only did they reduce the bonus by 50%
but they also fixed a bug which gave them double dipping benefits from venthyr
so they got completely fucked by last nights build
wind furnace
its funny tbh as domination is a contributing factor in hiding those balancing diffrences
mellow urchin
this is 4p fire mage
no covenant legendary tho
but i think the NF legendary is actually like 0% dps increase
wind furnace
mage covenant legos are quite back iirc
mellow urchin
ok no its 1.1%
wind furnace
so rogue is potentially somewhere middle of the pack with double legendary powers
mellow urchin
probably still low
wind furnace
ofc not on the insane end like other classes with 10%+
mellow urchin
like even if fire doesnt have a good 2nd legendary
their main one is like 20%+
if you add akaari + RC
thats like 13%
hoary zephyr
Hmm
so you think sub needs to be nerfed more?
because mage is still like an insane class for prog tbh
my biggest worry tbh are classes that use frost set currently
hoary zephyr
I feel like, them losing that is just big
mellow urchin
well yea
mellow urchin
but there are ppl saying assa wasnt that bad before frost set buffs
mellow urchin
but the thing is, the tier was barely out
wind furnace
letme see
hoary zephyr
for CN?
hoary zephyr
ohh
mellow urchin
no sub rogue had the daggers basically
hoary zephyr
well frost also got buffed
wind furnace
frost did make sin catch up significantly to sub
mellow urchin
well it was played in top 10 guilds
more than sub
but idk if that was due to sin being better or not
hoary zephyr
well
wind furnace
so 12% gain
hoary zephyr
early on
wind furnace
from 2 legos
steel meadow
which lego is here, akaaris?
neat dagger
do u have sims for sin and sub on dungeon slice? what is ahead there?
mellow urchin
sub is better in m+
mellow urchin
wut
hoary zephyr
man doesnt have a dagger
mellow urchin
he doesnt want it
hoary zephyr
he doesnt know what he wants
wind furnace
its still the same
i mean sry to say that
but you just see on this sims how strong sylvanas dagger is
mellow urchin
i thought RC would have more synergy with daggers
hoary zephyr
wait
wind furnace
going from ~12.7k to around 14k
wind furnace
same gain
hoary zephyr
I realize now
wind furnace
% wise
wind furnace
(just mention it because we talked about baseline)
mellow urchin
11332 baseline is nuts
hoary zephyr
ya
hoary zephyr
next expac
mellow urchin
idk how we ended up here
hoary zephyr
mellow urchin
cus really nothing changed going from 9.1 to 9.2
baseline that is
made some apl improvements on kyrian i guess
wind furnace
9.1 had sht + backstab buffs
wind furnace
kyrian is mostly due to sylvanas tho
so depends on what baseline we look at
pv def. was some missed optimization
mellow urchin
i mean kyrian is bigger than venthyr without daggers
you know this
we know this
everyone knows this
not sure why that point has to be made everytime when its not really true
can sim the difference without the daggers for the 100th time and its still gonna show kyrian ahead by a decent bit
mellow urchin
yea i agree
its just when you say its only cus of daggers
i think it sends a message to ppl that if they dont have daggers, they shouldnt play kyrian
which is simply wrong imo
wind furnace
i don't want to argue against it, but 9.0 kyrian was also better early and more than 1% ahead
still 50%+ did cba playing it
mellow urchin
soulshape
wind furnace
not sure if it was that big in the first raid
hoary zephyr
didnt that change when burs was unlocked?
wind furnace
yes
hoary zephyr
also soulshape was massive in CN
hoary zephyr
^
wind furnace
thats true
wind furnace
well unless you can remove encounter mechanics
mellow urchin
and when i played venthyr i pressed door of shadows like 4-5 times in entire SOD
wind furnace
i remember that being the case in raid testing or so
mellow urchin
just feels like a garbage ability to use
wind furnace
main use case for me is to get to a target quick that has a aoe channel or similar
like sylvanas heroic to just be on here immidiatly after the cast
but i agree, the cast time make it rly weird
mellow urchin
its barely a gain in pace
the cast time and animation lock
you should make some kind of experiment where you just run normally in 1 take
and then door of shadow the other
which one is faster
and by how much
not to mention that most of the things where door is actually useful you can just shadowstep instead
wind furnace
haha, that was my feedback in beta
mellow urchin
and soulshape is much more intuitive cus you can simply quickly blink
and leave it
in like a second
making smaller movements much nicer for soulshape
hoary zephyr
not to mention that most of the things where door is actually useful you can jus...
door was really good in Artificer testing 
also it was good in painsmith
tbh
dont need a target
mellow urchin
idk about painsmith
hoary zephyr
it was good for painsmith
mellow urchin
i just stepped a mage
hoary zephyr
true
wind furnace
you wouldn't need to play balls if everyone had it
mellow urchin
casting something for 2 seconds on painsmith is not a great time
wind furnace
i think there was a missed oppotunity for blizz btw.
hoary zephyr
I mean once you got used to it, it was pretty easy to execute
wind furnace
to give dos the option to take somone with you
e.g. a small aoe area people can step into
hoary zephyr
that would be too strong
wind furnace
and it would take up to 3? players with you
mellow urchin
ye that would be absolutely insane
hoary zephyr
since its tied on a general covenant ability
mellow urchin
like a gateway on evrey player in the raid
wind furnace
or even only 1 person would be nice
mellow urchin
door should have remained 0 cast time
wind furnace
or lower, like .3 secs or so
hoary zephyr
1 charge, instant
mellow urchin
its like actually 3 seconds atm
hoary zephyr
or 2 charges, cast time
mellow urchin
cus it has an over the top animation
wind furnace
its 1.5 sec cast
mellow urchin
so even when you have landed, it doesnt feel like you are in control
wind furnace
also max range is 35 feet
so to answer your question
iirc you move 7 or 8 feet per second baseline, so dos should be better/faster
hoary zephyr
stepping a mage
the downside of this btw is that you are relying on another person
they could fuck up somehow
mellow urchin
nah
hoary zephyr
and you would get punished
winged fiber
It’s actually so weird that door has such a big cast when soulshape exists lol
mellow urchin
the only times where the step failed was when the mage i was blinking to got tilted in the earlier pull and decided to blink last second instead of early
winged fiber
I stepped to the tank
One time he put his back to spikes after that I just used door lol
mellow urchin
true
wind furnace
or even funnier switch places with
mellow urchin
like a transcendence
wind furnace
it would also fix some solo content issues
mellow urchin
a log?
mellow urchin
grey, green, blue, purple or orange
winged fiber
Yea when like the ninja gets stabbed but it turns out it was just a log
And he’s actually behind you and then you die
hoary zephyr
@wind furnace too bad that talent is shit because distract can only be used on targets that are out of combat
mellow urchin
i mean this should work in combat no?
wind furnace
wouldn't mind if it would just spawn a steppable target on the location
hoary zephyr
Nope
mellow urchin
otherwise its completely pointless
hoary zephyr
Doesn’t work
mellow urchin
ok
hoary zephyr
Yeah it is
Lmao
I was super excited when it as first introduced
Then tried it
And was like, wow this is shit
Only useful in rbg I guess
But fuck that
Ya a talent that spawns a decoy on distract location
wind furnace
seems even in rbgs niche
hoary zephyr
Or distract doing that base line
Because technically theme wise you are doing that
You are spawning a decoy to distract enemies
wind furnace
it not distrcting wouldn't be a issue
hoary zephyr
But it can be used as a step target
wind furnace
as you don't want to fuck with tank shananigans
hoary zephyr
Ya but it doesn’t rip threat or anything
barren forge
Sub shadowclone ?
wind furnace
i think the shadow theme could be more explored
barren forge
Summon a copy of yourself, doesn’t do dmg, dmg taken is split between i and the clone and use pet bar to move clone to target location, able to step to clone
wind furnace
i like the idea of a decoy you can step on and switch location with too
barren forge
Would be interesting but could be way to op
wind furnace
just seems very ninja like
don't think it would rly be op, other classes have blinks and near infinite mobility
e.g. DH can often just jump/glide over things
barren forge
Could maybe make it a talent to modify shadowstep like mages get shimmer or whatever it’s call, wars get speed after leap
wind furnace
haha this somewhat reminds me to black powder on beta
when people where like "HOLY HELL THIS NEEDS NERFS, YOU CAN TAKE NO FALL DAMAGE"
autumn jungle
Wait what's with BP and no fall damage?
wind furnace
and why does this seem like something op when half of the classes in wow can do that already
BP was initially called shadow vault
and it did lock you into a .5 sec long animation that did give you a push upwards
what could be used to well take no fall damage
barren forge
The shadowclone thing could be extraordinarily OP depending on how they designed it. Rogue already has a solid toolkit out side of raid cd. Giving it something like what we’re talking about. Well I can’t really think of anything but it being OP
autumn jungle
Interesting, that's cool, kinda similar to killing spree animation where you could take damage while teleporting around lol
wind furnace
The shadowclone thing could be extraordinarily OP depending on how they designed...
a lot of classes have similar or higher mobility with less pre-conditions
barren forge
That’s definitely true
barren forge
I mean, all they really need to do is take the target requirement away from shadowstep
wind furnace
but mage exists too
barren forge
I.e. step to target or target location
wind furnace
if you spawn a decoy, you would have even more restrictions
because you had a cooldown of the decoy
and can't step 2 times fast
winged fiber
If shadowvault was still a thing sub would suck so much ass
wind furnace
in raiding you can already step to friendly players
who don't have this restrictions 😛
so at least for raiding it seems more of a qol change
barren forge
Yeah mage can blink thru x and rogue just step to mage
wind furnace
if the decoy can take aggro/survivies for a short time
you could also solve some of the solo content issues
rogue rly sucks in solo content compared to other classes
barren forge
Basically make it a real shadowclone with a pet ai?
barren forge
Makes sense. Isn’t there an engi item that use to do that?
wind furnace
can even don't take aggro because you can tott it
but tbh i think mobility is fine on subtlety
barren forge
Would be nice not having to have a target to step to. But yeah movements never really been an issue
viscid hill
Thanks @wind furnace for the no dagger sims! I saw the variance for Venthyr and Kyrian, but I don't understand why Kyrian is under Venthyr. Yes you have to stack with venthyr, but the random CP generator for Kyrian can prevent to use the 2CP RC proc. Or I forget something ?
viscid hill
seems a lot better in terms of variance
this one
viscid hill
Yes, let me re-explain sorry
wind furnace
you usually tent to hit the kyrian anima cp quite reliably
but venthyr gets more benefit from procs at certain timings
thats why there is a higher variance
viscid hill
I don't understand why the Kyrian variance is so low while with the 4P we'll have a hard time making RC work when we have to put a spell at 2CP.
delicate osprey
we wont tbh only hard one is 2cp
wind furnace
^
viscid hill
It's an example
delicate osprey
and even then no shadowblades no sht 4p is already a proc you can sit on
i mean sub becomes more reactive
not like i enjoy the whole gamba thing
wind furnace
and you can improve 2p procs by e.g. slightly delaying your bs to hit a finisher after a sht proc
delicate osprey
but at least it ups the skill cieling
the funniest shit will be PV stacks
we still trying to tinket about using stab in dance
if you get super procs early on
wind furnace
we will use it during dance ^^
esp. with akaaris
because the overflow is to high else
delicate osprey
ye i know me and push when the aakari pv things came in day 1 we were well thats gonna be a thing
delicate osprey
even you did prelim sims and it was 1% or so
hoary zephyr
no shot @mellow urchin says play Kyrian on Anduin
delicate osprey
venth is fine even nf might be better
hoary zephyr
Not for Priority damage
delicate osprey
because you can snap sepsis resets
wind furnace
ye i know me and push when the aakari pv things came in day 1 we were well thats...
its funny that my initial condition still holds true ^^
hoary zephyr
Flag will be absolutely bonkers
delicate osprey
hehe yea
hoary zephyr
esp for intermission/LK phase
delicate osprey
we did say 4 secs or so inside dance it seemed like that
hoary zephyr
with the funnel
mellow urchin
no shot <@!153289634909126656> says play Kyrian on Anduin
no its like the 1 fight where ive said you might play venthyr
hoary zephyr
I am sure there might be more
mellow urchin
simply cus of the intermission
delicate osprey
my man hollow already forgetting
delicate osprey
tbh i might try nf in some bosses in hc
mellow urchin
venthyr might be the play on first boss
hoary zephyr
ya
mellow urchin
if the last version remains
hoary zephyr
I was thinking that too
delicate osprey
yea it seems like it
mellow urchin
but apart from that..
delicate osprey
you are kinda timed anyway
as the boss still gains the % dmg increase
tbh it is better because otherwise another 7 min+ 1st boss like wrathion
zzzzzzzzzzzzz
hoary zephyr
Artificer could be too
delicate osprey
artificier will justs be push push push