the only problem about assa before we know about sub tier balance is how behind it gets in st
#9.2 Feedback and Discussion
delicate osprey
wind furnace
but assume sub will be still the better choice
delicate osprey
upfront damage is always valued at a premium
nova nexus
the only problem about assa before we know about sub tier balance is how behind ...
just get a NF priest
delicate osprey
same as in other games like poe
ahaha scath knows the secret of super vendetta time
nova nexus
i tasted it in 9.1.5.
delicate osprey
tbh we may have a priest playing nf in some bosses because holy is nf
maybe i can get one of those 2 masks if assa super scales with cdr on that boss
nova nexus
could be living the dream where assa isn’t tied 100% to vanish.
wind furnace
assassinations burst is higher than on sub in 9.2 iirc
funnel damage of sub should be even better tho
given 4p
nova nexus
the big question as always, will the funnel be needed. hopefully so
wind furnace
iirc anduin seems to have a very good phase for funneling
for m+ funnel seems to be atm a big point to lower the dungeon timer
so i assume that stays similar
delicate osprey
nah assa burst has nothing on nf burst problem is that nf is suboptimal as sub what seems cool is they have short cds too now
what i really want is sbs dot to work with blades
like they did with sepsis
and garrote
nova nexus
@wind furnace does that 3.0 speed dagger change anything for either of the specs? i know you wouldn’t want it as an OH for sub, but two of those for mutilate? or did that all get normalized
wind furnace
daggers with super fast/slow speed are likely just placeholder items that are not correctly in yet
delicate osprey
correct
wind furnace
so its more of a 
nova nexus
i was shocked seeing it at that speed
wind furnace
^ if a sword with .5 existed, we would use it
delicate osprey
yep
nova nexus
shanker throwback
wind furnace
i remember shananigans in wotlk with super slow weapons
but it hasn't been a thing in modern wow
weapons are usually normalized to a certain speed
nova nexus
i couldn’t remember and then the OH sub stuff always has me second guessing normalization for other specs
delicate osprey
almost everything is attack power related
wind furnace
oh has a lot of shananigans
delicate osprey
and the weapon damage just feeds into it
wind furnace
e.g. outlaw uses the sylvanas daggers, probably even in 9.2 in offhand
delicate osprey
but yea a lot of things still running around
wind furnace
while not having it on the drop table 
nova nexus
degen spec.
it’s only redeeming quality is being able to share weapons with other classes.
delicate osprey
yea getting robbed by dhs. monks, enh must be fun
ptsd from nathria tho sharing loot with all the dw classes
even more now that enhance shaman will be higher prio than rogue too
as people remembered how to do math and decent dps+buffs4>good dps
wind furnace
hunters have similar issues with the legendary bow
aquisition of unique items like the dagger is just very brutal if you can't trade weapons
delicate osprey
only 1 of our 3 hunters has the sylvanas bow M
around 14 kills i think
no idea about cloak
unkempt peak
i mean that just shows the gaping issues with personal loot, bad luck protection can only help so much, i remember before i had two daggers if i hadnt received loot from the past 4-5 bosses id ask to be sat until they were on sylv (during our reclears)
because there are two different dagger models in the new raid, anyone know if we are gonna have another edge of night situation? unique dagger with a unique effect? or maybe its a caster dagger?
delicate osprey
it seems even cooler we have a dagger set !!
to curb sylvanas off hand most likely
mauybe the power of the set is not super high like sylv but still enough to kill sylvanas off hand
of course all progress we will stay with them i guess tho if we have double 259
wind furnace
personal loot with bad luck protection def. seems to have issues
robust lotus
issues only arise when you're the only spec that can get that item
and I think that's only an issue for rogue, no?
other specs share everything
civic terrace
Hunters
delicate osprey
and dh with glaives
so blizz just gave up and made every dh weapon a first weapon or sword
delicate osprey
everyday we pray for a craft your gear from boss currency day
civic terrace
Or just master loot 
delicate osprey
does it make sense for bosses to have pieces of gear lying around in their fanny packs
hoary zephyr
Sub gonna be better
delicate osprey
really depends although we still didnt see M mechanics really well
on that one
i really like the power of necro there but even venth seems fine anyway
necro just has all these things not working
with core sub things
wind furnace
Sub gonna be better
due to funnel?
civic terrace
Maybe he just believes 
hoary zephyr
due to funnel?
Yes and partly with 2 set working with 4 set
People underestimating how strong 2-4 target cleave will be for sub
delicate osprey
yea that is why i said after tier set balance
right now we are a ball of procs
might even be worth to run PV on cleave with aakari at this rate
if the 4P procs that also aakari also give pv
hoary zephyr
2p not working with 4p sucks a lot
But once that starts working
Oh boy
Sub will have no weakness imo
Except like super proc based spec but honestly I don’t mind it
The more I played and tested, the more I enjoyed it
Obviously there are people that disagree with my take but that’s fine
It does suck not getting high procs but man when you get procs, it feels amazing
delicate osprey
that is the idea yea just have to see after balancing
hoary zephyr
Yeah for sure
I definitely think the set needs to be tuned properly
But I definitely find the gameplay fun and super reaction based
delicate osprey
i mean dust with old sepsis also felt super good but they decided to not keep it in the game
now i wonder if they kill any interactions too
or only touch some procs %
feral schooner
it seems even cooler we have a dagger set !!
What where is in the raid not open world a dagger set?
delicate osprey
weapons and other things are still not in the ptr fully
feral schooner
Oh so we are hoping for a new eon?
I think the issue isn't eon really just that most likely there is nothing like that next content
unkempt peak
i mean we still have time for them to due a lot of tuning right now, to say X class with be the best in 9.2 is just speculating
ocean ridge
any idea at this point where covenants will land for sub in 9.2
delicate osprey
kyrian and venthyr seem ahead of the other ones
although nf is a dark horse if we can snap sepsis a lot and get many resets on korayn in a kt esque scenario
where you want a lot of damage on short lived targets
wind furnace
i mean dust with old sepsis also felt super good but they decided to not keep it...
Start of xpac had a big focus on keeping covenants close to each other
this isn't the case anymore due to the ability to freely swap
9.0 would have ended with 1 single covenant and legendary choice with "old sepsis"
what is not nessecery a ideal situation if you want to get people to not care about covenants
delicate osprey
it would have only needed for deathly to be sub only like it was originally
and make it have vanish cdr
but it was a change so old too ahaha
wind furnace
you mean deathly?
delicate osprey
oh yea that one
we got scamazd
but i think there was no saving rogue in 9.0 unless they buffed it too much
they first had to nerf the other specs like they did
with dk etc
wind furnace
the problem of 9.0 was balancing
rogue was well balanced but that did mean middle of the pack or lower
assassination was undertuned, what was not addressed in beta and then got buffed to beat both sub and outlaw
It feels weird that DK got nerfed a lot more than balance
balance for unknown reason did survive for 2 raids in a somewhat op state
delicate osprey
i mean if you only look at data balance had average damage just the damage profile was super valuable
two raids in a row
now this last one we'll see with kyrian being kind of op right now too
or even playing nerfed venth for progress just because of how it works
unkempt peak
I think that's one of my biggest gripes about SL so far, tuning and balancing has felt so light it has no calories, basically it feel like all the tuning we have seen has been to systems, which has to make me wonder, how much time actually goes into the development and then support of all the systems they pile on top of each other, and is it really worth it? Not to say all the changes are bad, we did get some nice AoE quality of life, a lot of people argued they shouldn't have been there in the first place
Even then, we have had dead legendaries which I would probably assume will stay dead for the rest of the expansion, along with some dead talents
wind furnace
I think thats a repeating thing, and i am sure none of the devs does a bad job
its very hard to see know from the outside, but with other classes getting "this can't be done in time" answers it rly seems like there is not enough time planed to balance and iterate on systems
unkempt peak
@wind furnace I agree, I don't think any of the dev team just don't want to try, I'm sure it mainly falls to not having enough time to properly test in, and rather than dropping something broken it's better to keep the devil you know
wind furnace
in fact i thing 2 big factors for 9.2s fairly good balance between specs are:
#1 the low-ish tuning of the raid
#2 domination, as it is mostly a static amount of damage everyone gets what makes differences lower
the raid having a mixed set of bosses is also very relevant as it means that more than 1 niche can shine
9.0 was a big example for "not enough time"
unkempt peak
Just makes me sad when we get a bunch of legendaries to play with, but then we just use the same 2 or 3 for the whole expansion, makes me sad for the devs that spend the time coming up with the ones that don't get used
wind furnace
if you go with the promise that rogue was somewhat around the expected output, you see a lot of issues
even between rogue specs, assassination got not buffed to be relevant initially
and if you compare to others, things get even worse
its hard to explain why 20% legendary powers exist, or covenants that simply got nerfed fast after the raid opened due to being to powerful
unkempt peak
Agreed, I like a raid tier where the roster can be switched up and everyone gets a moment to shine - the main issue for rogue, because it has 0 to offer outside of it's raid damage, if it isn't above average dps, it's a tough sell to bring more than one, if even the one
wind furnace
like to get into my opinion, i think outliners need to exist, having a somewhat diverse landscape of classes is good and healthy
but there is a diffrence between outliners that shine in specific tasks
and others that simply do everything better by a noticable margin
e.g. DK in 9.0 was just killing any competition in melee slots for that reason
unkempt peak
100% I don't want to see raid tiers where 1 spec or class is the stacker, like this raid requires 4 boomkins to make fights easier, or you need as many shadow priests because the second to last boss is much harder without them
wind furnace
and this things can happen or be missed
but a lot of times it seems that they are missed even with enough evidence that they exist
corruption was a very good showcase of that
TCs did know that X/Y was problematic and create a power inbalance, and iirc also did forward this message
still, it wasn't adressed, what is fair tbh given that opinions between devs and others can differ
but also ended up in creating some insane power creeps, that is fun to play, but also not healthy for the game
unkempt peak
I mean that just comes back to blizzard being so slow to react to feedback that they miss their window to actually change it before it becomes a problem, it's why they got a lot of negative feedback about the community council, the feedback from players has always been there, they just never directly address it or flat out ignore it
wind furnace
again, i don't think there is a incentive to ignore feedback or bad intent. I think they have a team of motivated devs who try to create a engaging game
but it just fell short very often
unkempt peak
Power creep can be tricky, because it's fun while you can enjoy it, but if it messes with balance then it becomes an issue, legion to me was a good and bad example of power creep, it stayed relatively balanced, but by the end of the expansion they needed to do another squish because of how crazy things got
wind furnace
i mean the subtlety tier set is already a showcase of it
it seems way to good in its current iteration
and i don't say this because i want it nerfed
or because i want rogue to be bad
unkempt peak
100% and I'm super greatful we have someone like scarizard willing to put themselves out on a limb and try to create a dialog about where they are at and what the intention is, I just wish the forums worked like that a little more, especially during betas and alphas, especially if something is getting a lot of attention, it doesn't even need to be the devs caving to the player, more just an explanation of why something is designed that was, or even just addressing the feedback is being taken on board
wind furnace
I think discords are already a thing
unkempt peak
Absolutely, Id love rogue to be tuned as well as it is now for the next patch, I know that's a bit of wishful thinking and probably not gonna be the outcome, but hopefully it will be
wind furnace
so it seemed to me like inventing a new standard for no reason
also the application process and similar feel a bit weird
not saying it couldn't work out well
but i think only one other game approached a similar thing
and they did have the community vote in people
unkempt peak
I think I'll be more interested in seeing how the com council shakes out when we get the next expans alpha or beta, because my initial understanding was the com council forums were a more focus point of contact for devs and player reps to have a open discussion, but as of right now the com council forums just seems like a smaller bunch of players talking amongst themselves
My main gripe is when blizz introduce something that makes the playerbase ask why it was done this way, or why is this so grindy, Id just love when it's first announced that they tag on a little paragraph about their design choices so the players don't need to try and guess so often
Not saying I want that for everything, but just the big systems and larger pieces of content
mellow urchin
tldr
blizzard needs to hire more devs
but its definitely not the first company in the world which is understaffed
its very common
wind furnace
they had a lot of open positions mid xpac iirc
wonder if they already stocked up
we need to keep in mind that more devs does not immediately mean higher productivity
as people need to learn the tooling and other things
nova nexus
they need to do a better job allocating development time to allow for some basic interaction with the player base. be it via scheduling, staffing or however they are able to accomplish it and still remain on schedule
the 9.2 communications has been great
topaz merlin
We're starting to see the fruits of their hiring. Did Scarizard not say in this discord he only joined in SL? That means new hires are starting to be given significant tasks. The cynical part of me goes "well if new hires are doing significant work in 9.2 does that mean the more experienced (as in time at Blizz not general skill) devs are working on 10.0? The same devs who got us into this mess."
mellow urchin
We're starting to see the fruits of their hiring. Did Scarizard not say in this ...
his first work was on SoD
so yea
it obviously takes time before you see the result of the increased recruitment
perhaps 10.0
has some signs of improvement
wind furnace
9.2 will be interesting to observe
unsure how many people return and how many wait for 10.0
topaz merlin
his first work was on SoD
Oh? Do we know what he did? I wasn't aware of him till I started seeing him talk about being the set Dev for rogue.
If they can take the attitude surrounding the development of class sets into 10.0 though I am hopeful.
wind furnace
he was iirc active in the dk or some other discord and mentioned that he works on rogue too
thats basically the first interaction/clue we got
topaz merlin
*into 10.0 as a whole.
mossy carbon
He did the unique weapons in SoD - EoN, Jaithys, the Nine polearm, might be another one I forgot
Think he does lots of the raid loot stuff in general
topaz merlin
Ahh. He's to blame for my EoN farming woes :P
mellow urchin
special weapons are cool
regardless if you had a hard time farming them
thats the entire point
to want something
mossy carbon
I mean they are a great idea with a very interesting effect, much better than most things we've gotten in that sphere, ultimately attaching that much power to a weapon only 1 class can loot (via personal loot) when you're only going to have 2 of that class at most is never going to work in personal loot
mellow urchin
if you could just collect it from a vendor, it wouldnt be very cool
so idk why ppl complain they have to farm the items, its part of the game.
mellow urchin
they could ahve been legendary
wind furnace
would also feel better to use them in 9.2 if they had legendary quality
topaz merlin
I think my main problem is in not having a steady guild clearing Heroic each week. So I have to PuG it and that is a painful prospect.
Had a couple of weeks where we one or two shot it in 15-30 minutes.
Every other week has been 1-4 hours try to find good groups and wiping repeatedly.
It's not really a loot issue but more of a fight length/social issue for me.
mellow urchin
the feeling when you get a dagger is great tho
and if it was easy, you wouldnt get that dopamine hit
but i do think that more ppl should be able to loot daggers
topaz merlin
I didn't get it this week from her. Gotta kill another 8 bosses tonight for vault so maybe tomorrow.
And yeah. Having it drop for more people would be nice. Or bonus rolls. I don't think they were bad for the loot grind at least.
nova nexus
I don’t mind the farming. It would be nice to have some form of BLP
should I go entire tier not seeing one and I was farming LFR/Normal/Heroic from the start until I quit 2 months ago
gave me Mantle flashbacks/ptsd in legion
mossy carbon
And yeah. Having it drop for more people would be nice. Or bonus rolls. I don't ...
When the dagger is that big of an upgrade, if bonus rolls were still a thing you would try to bonus roll bosses you didn't need to guarantee you could bonus roll sylv for loot
nova nexus
mr 5 mythic dagger
nova nexus
i’m sure i’m at that from all difficulties that we were clearing. (ie no mythic)
that much of a power gain just gets infuriating if you’re “unluck”
just need some type of blp and have fun. i don’t need everything by week 3, i just don’t want to slam my head against that much repetition where it sucks the fun and hope out of it.
oh look I looked neck off Tara. no slyv loot this week. 
worn prawn
and if it was easy, you wouldnt get that dopamine hit
pretty sure ive got a twitch clip of me screaming when i got it
nova nexus
and maybe I’m just an outlier, but that’s usually what BLP type systems are meant to help. I’ll happily farm crap within reason, when it turns into playing the loot lotto week after week it doesn’t feel good.
I think Heroic as an offhand is still close to a 3% upgrade with my sub setup. 
wind furnace
bad luck protection does impact drops
and it can make it even harder to get the item you want
round orbit
myself and the other rogue in my guild have been farming sylv (HC) since week 2 and neither of us has dropped the dagger. Only reason I have it is because the vault gave it to me. the other rogue is pissssssed he still hasnt got it
topaz merlin
and it can make it even harder to get the item you want
Sounds like the most degen thing to do is kill a few bosses and if you don't get loot skip to the boss you want an item from when the blp has had time to stack...
wind furnace
you could potentially sit on fights if your blp is very high
topaz merlin
Not so easy on Mythic but for Heroic.
wind furnace
you just need to have a very good estimate for it
nova nexus
there are multiple ways to handle blp. even something as simplistic as the old bonus roll system I at least knew I had one chance on a specific boss
in 9.0 one of our DKs got old warrior soul 5 strait raids. our warriors were happy, but how does that even happen.
nova nexus
you could potentially sit on fights if your blp is very high
I sat on mythic reclears to keep 3 heroics vault option. that was fun. Taking away something I enjoy doing to try to target loot not exactly a good feeling.
feral schooner
I think slyvanas mythic dagger has a higher drop chance
robust lotus
You are crazy
wind furnace
it seemed to drop more in the weekly vault somewhere in dec/jan
so possible that they increased the drop chance
feral schooner
They should tbh
its a joke that this dagger is essentially endcontent for rouge and our class will be balanced in 9.2 having this dagger
I remember the dev in the discord here talking we need a nerf as sub. I would rather see them nerf the freaking dagger.
Btw they could do so much more with this dagger like implement a quest line to upgrade it etc make it even legendary quality. That way everyone can have it but again blizzard passed up on that imo.
autumn jungle
it seemed to drop more in the weekly vault somewhere in dec/jan
Tbh I feel like it was dropping more because more people were getting 3 mythic boxes consistently by December
tepid prawn
I remember the dev in the discord here talking we need a nerf as sub. I would ra...
Who says they won't disable the effect or introduce something better?
Just unnecessary doomsaying imo
We don't know jack about 9.2 honestly.
wind furnace
there is a lot they could do to change the dagger
feral schooner
for example just nerf the applying debuff?
wind furnace
they could:
- keep it as is
- simply nerf it
- change how special effects are handled on offhand weapons
- remove offhand penalty from daggers/integrate offhand dps into spells
feral schooner
just nerf it.
mellow urchin
why do you want to nerf the class
because you dont have the weapon
dont be a child
mellow urchin
thats gonna happen anyway?
but after nerfs (ofc its early etc), depending on how harsh they will be. We might need every bit of dmg to compete since we have lackluster 2nd legendary
and then ppl are here crying about more nerfs because they don't currently have it
some fucking idiocy
wind furnace
akaari actually jumped slightly in value with the wm/pv change
so its not terrible anymore
mellow urchin
still 5% compared to 10%+ that most other specs got
wind furnace
but also means that the idea of rotten is probably dead
nova nexus
i don’t care about nerfing it. i care more about the system involved acquiring it.
wind furnace
its not 8-10% ye
feral schooner
nerfing the tier set is also a nerf to the class ^^
Yeah but you can aquire the Tier set as a returning player rather easy. The Mythic dagger is near impossible even if like many other here I can get it eventually just have to get more kills on her.
wind furnace
i think there is a legit concern that people need to go back to this raid to farm the weapon for offhand
and i can see positives for keeping the dagger at this value and negatives
mellow urchin
but you dont
feral schooner
and then ppl are here crying about more nerfs because they don't currently have ...
Why should a class the next content be balanced around 1 weapon?
mellow urchin
its not
ur talking out of your ass
even if you dont have a single dagger in 9.2
ur looking at a loss of at most 1-2% dps
its not a spec defining difference
wind furnace
potentially more than 1-2%
feral schooner
its more then 2%
nova nexus
its not a spec defining difference
then nerf it and adjust the other borrowed powers that are current?
wind furnace
more like 3%
mellow urchin
didnt you sim it recently fuu
wind furnace
i did
mellow urchin
was it 3%?
wind furnace
oh wait
mellow urchin
then nerf it and adjust the other borrowed powers that are current?
they wont do that
unrealistic to assume they will
wind furnace
na it was 2.3% or so
nova nexus
i mean it was unrealistic to think we’d have a dev here. maybe i’m just too positive theses days.
wind furnace
iirc a normal dagger would still be as poweful as a mythic one of the next raid
livid ferry
He also isn’t really a “rogue dev”
mellow urchin
ye well the dps gained/lost in these "smaller numbers" only matter to cutting edge players. If you're a casual coming back to the game to raid normals or heroic you dont need a fucking dagger, lets be real.
wind furnace
i mean
mossy carbon
I can't see why anyone would go back to SoD to farm it, we haven't seen the new dagger effect right? Either you are at a level where it's relevant in which case you already have it, or you don't have it. If you don't have it, you have probably 6 weeks at least to get at least one on normal/hc which is a pretty good shot
feral schooner
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/63tTy8ZdSeeeYN4XRsMGLT with double hc dagger without https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dvUxdaV4qXovn78SnEAQ4W no shards nothing
wind furnace
keep in mind that 10 itemlevel in offhand is worth abour .3% dps
mellow urchin
you even said it yourself fuu, you're not even farming the dagger because you don't need it
wind furnace
so having a dagger with 2% impact is quite huge
nova nexus
i’m still progging. would like the extra dps from it. resigned to not having it.
mellow urchin
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/63tTy8ZdSeeeYN4XRsMGLT with double hc dag...
whats this meant to say
ofc its a loss in current tier?
feral schooner
whats this meant to say
It means the dagger is op considering I just dropped 4% in damage and this is only the hc version
feral schooner
yeah but it will be even bigger next tier in the offhand having the mythic dagger
livid ferry
Be mad at the shitty loot system, not the fact we have a good weapon
mellow urchin
yea its such a weird ass take to want a weapon nerfed cus you havent gotten the toy yet
get over it
feral schooner
I am pissed this isnt a legendary dagger with a questline
feral schooner
I would nerf it if I have it too
mellow urchin
sure you would
nova nexus
He also isn’t really a “rogue dev”
i didn’t say rogue dev. i said dev. also responsible for raid loot items if i understand correctly.
feral schooner
I know people rouges that wont come back because they already see themself farming this for offhand
mellow urchin
yea thats probably very true
mossy carbon
It will be less big because you get new, higher ilvl daggers? Including an opportunity to farm a new dagger with an effect on normal and heroic?
mellow urchin
and accurate
mapko knows some rogues that wont come back
i will cry for them tonight
feral schooner
yea thats probably very true
Why so toxic?
livid ferry
Because you are spewing
nova nexus
welcome to balancing and sub rogues pre tier
feral schooner
Just a differences in opinion yes
nova nexus
everyone edgy. 
feral schooner
I think the dagger shouldnt be in the game or according to lore more a legendary weapon with a quest
livid ferry
Nah its fine as a raid drop
You’d probably still need to go kill sylvanas for the quest
Just do it now
Like I said be mad at the loot system
feral schooner
Thats fine since you will get it earlier then when you raid hc
tepid prawn
I think the dagger shouldnt be in the game or according to lore more a legendary...
According to lore?
livid ferry
Not the weapon
tepid prawn
What does that even mean
mellow urchin
how many sylvanas kills do you have under your belt mapko
feral schooner
Like I said be mad at the loot system
true
livid ferry
You dont need the dagger to raid hc
mellow urchin
do you fill out the raid vault every week
feral schooner
do you fill out the raid vault every week
3 on mythic needed 16 on hc and normal to get one now got 2 hc
livid ferry
Promise
feral schooner
yes
nova nexus
mossy carbon
OH mythic dagger is like 100 dps?
mossy carbon
over hc?
feral schooner
why its the best weapon in the game pretty broken imo for an epic dagger
mellow urchin
sure it should have been legendary
but they havent done quest legendaries in many years
feral schooner
true since cata
nova nexus
you’ve gotten two and complaining
livid ferry
Its not gonna have a quest
nova nexus
i got lost
tepid prawn
why its the best weapon in the game pretty broken imo for an epic dagger
?
The dagger Sire dropped was the best weapon in the game
in 9.0
nova nexus
when my gripe was the loot system and not the dagger itself.
livid ferry
The game has been straying from being an RPG for years now
feral schooner
?
arguing the weapon should have been treated with more flair (Questline, Legendary etc)
tepid prawn
Every patch
livid ferry
Nah
tepid prawn
has a "best weapon"
tepid prawn
doesn't mean that the best weapon has to be a legendary every time
livid ferry
If you want that you should go classic or something
Thats more what you are searching for
tepid prawn
We shouldn't run around in full legendary gear
just because it's the "best choice" for that patch
feral schooner
If you want that you should go classic or something
I know but it hasn't been since legion. Where the quests were kinda like a weapon quest of the past. And they were beloved imo
nova nexus
someone bless my vault. going to cry for the next 38 minutes
livid ferry
Werent legion weapon quests a joke compared to like fangs of the father lmao
Like a massive clown joke
feral schooner
Werent legion weapon quests a joke compared to like fangs of the father lmao
true agree
tepid prawn
Yes
livid ferry
With big shoes and a honking nose
feral schooner
but better then nothing
livid ferry
Nah mate
mellow urchin
you know whats better than nothing, ACTUALLY GETTING COOL ITEMS
tepid prawn
You can make a new level 10 character now, do the broken shores introduction
and get your artifact weapon in 3 minutes
feral schooner
WoW hasn’t been the WoW that you seek for a while
I know sadly 😭
nova nexus
legion was best expansion only based on the fact i didn’t need to farm weapons. lol
livid ferry
The game is more a co-op team pve game than an actual mmorpg
Or pvp game depending what you prefer
Long arduous Quest lines for big cool weapons will probably never be a thing again
mellow urchin
besides the point anyway
you even have heroic daggers
case closed
stop whining
feral schooner
Isnt about me its about the weapon in general
mellow urchin
why is it about the weapon, are we meant to never have cool and strong items in the game anymore cus Bob the returner cant be fully bis the first week he's back?
is that the goal of this game
feral schooner
why is it about the weapon, are we meant to never have cool and strong items in ...
The game is imo dying because of that attitude. But I guess thats a difference in opinion.
clear zephyr
RIP bob
mellow urchin
no its most certainly is not
wind furnace
there is merrit in saying that the weapon feels exciting.
Because it is a high value effect on one of the weaker itemslots
livid ferry
So you think wow would be more alive if they just gave out loot
tepid prawn
That take couldn't be more wrong to be honest
wind furnace
i don't think anyone would mind if the raid had weapon tokens for the dagger
mellow urchin
The game is imo dying because of that attitude. But I guess thats a difference i...
trying to please the returning tourists might however be a part in why the game has less players. Cus they come back and want instant gratification, gets it and leaves within a month
feral schooner
there is merrit in saying that the weapon feels exciting.
Because it is a high v...
True but what feels exciting differs from player to player.
wind furnace
to resolve the "only rogue can loot it"
tepid prawn
If everyone had insane loot the first time they set their foot in an instance, you'd have no reason to open up the game every single week.
topaz merlin
The game is imo dying because of that attitude. But I guess thats a difference i...
How is the game dying because of that attitude? The attitude if I interpret it correctly that there should be things to work towards and not everything should be attainable with trivial time and effort. (Correct me if I misunderstand please Push).
clear zephyr
Bring back re roll tokens 😊
livid ferry
Reroll tokens wouldn’t be much better tbh
You’d still be pissed like 8/10 times
Roll gold
Nice
tepid prawn
GV > Bonus tokens/shitty vault
clear zephyr
Eh maybe
feral schooner
i mean lore wise
Yes exactly they missed the mark imo. So much missed content around a dagger to make it feel special and not just big numbers and a chore to grind
Same with shards or domination sets
livid ferry
Not even loot system this time
The game isn’t the same game
You played
7 years ago or whatever
It just literally isn’t even the same game
feral schooner
true I should stop complaining, but I just do not want rouge balance be based around a dagger that is from the previous content. They even just disabled shards for the next patch might aswell nerf the dagger.
feral schooner
ok good then
feral schooner
Cause of the high combo points we get with the tier set
livid ferry
What
feral schooner
higher combo points benefits the daggers
mellow urchin
the dev who made the sylvanas daggers literally said he expects ppl to simply not use them in 9.2
feral schooner
<:kekg:866683121486135296> <:kekg:866683121486135296> <:kekg:866683121486135296>...
Why not? Whats the baseline?
If you know please share
topaz merlin
We literally had a Dev in here saying that they would rather tune all the sets to be a roughly equal power amount then buff/nerf base classes to even the balance out. I highly doubt they think that about the set and then go "Fuck it. Include the daggers as baseline for balance"
livid ferry
Bro he literally just made a set effect he thought was cool you’re reading way too far into it
Its not that deep
feral schooner
Its not that deep
haha ok ^^
mellow urchin
they didnt touch old items in BFA
that were OP
mages literally played with font of power
until it ended
pretty much
topaz merlin
Was about to say Font. How long was the Fire Mage pull timer thanks to that?
mellow urchin
do you think they gave a shit about old players coming back having to farm font of power? nope. Ppl just played the game and farmed it on their own
thats against ToS btw
never share ur character name
livid ferry
Imo having to go back to farm old raids for giga good items actually enhances what you want in WoW 
Unironically
feral schooner
never share ur character name
Yeah then ill delete that comment
mellow urchin
i think coral got a slight nerf
in 8.3
not sure
but i killed nzoth with coral equipped
feral schooner
old items did get often nerfs in new tiers tbh
I mean they just striaght up nerfed us by removing all shards not only the set bonus
livid ferry
Didn’t you literally use old content gear in current content back in old wow as well lmao
mellow urchin
yes you did
livid ferry
Like weren’t some things so op you’d just use them forever
feral schooner
Didn’t you literally use old content gear in current content back in old wow as ...
As tank you played tf in bc
mellow urchin
its part of the game
livid ferry
Bunch of cry babies
mellow urchin
always has been
livid ferry
Put in the effort or shut the fuck up
If you get unlucky for 20 weeks its not the fault of the dagger its the dog shit loot system
topaz merlin
Does that mean I can complain about RNGesus not smiling upon me as I farm SoD for my daggers?
wind furnace
I mean they just striaght up nerfed us by removing all shards not only the set b...
the diffrence is that everyone benefits from the shards, while only rogue benefits from the dagger
feral schooner
the diffrence is that everyone benefits from the shards, while only rogue benefi...
true
mellow urchin
its the equivalent
livid ferry
Coral 
tepid prawn
I mean they just striaght up nerfed us by removing all shards not only the set b...
if by "us" you mean literally every single class and spec in the game, then you're right.
feral schooner
if by "us" you mean literally every single class and spec in the game, then you'...
yes I mean everyone sorry the wording wasnt that correct
feral schooner
Why they just straight up nerfed everyone going into the next tier
tepid prawn
?
tepid prawn
They nerf everyone
feral schooner
why we lose power going into a tier?
tepid prawn
this has happened for every single major patch release
mellow urchin
nerfing daggers would only nerf rogue
tepid prawn
since like TBC
You always get borrowed power for one patch
and it gets removed or replaced the next patch
that's what happens
every single patch
feral schooner
This power creep is insane. They never disabled a tier set mid expansion
livid ferry
Looking at your number in a vacuum is useless
If dom shards are disabled this nerfs everyone
tepid prawn
livid ferry
Meaning no ones actually getting nerfed
mellow urchin
you have to realize that the dom set system is incredibly invasive on your item slots yes?
feral schooner
yes ofc still makes everyone less strong going into the next tier
mellow urchin
you udnerstand that?
topaz merlin
I suppose the main difference is where as previously you could keep the old tier equipped until you got 2p/4p of the new one if you wanted it's hard gone this time.
autumn jungle
yes ofc still makes everyone less strong going into the next tier
so what?
tepid prawn
Alright, back to grinding Torghast. It's less painful than this chat
mellow urchin
imagine if you have all ur items locked because now you have a tier set and dom set to use at the same time
its the same thing as if you could use T5 and T6 at the same time
thats not how it works
feral schooner
imagine if you have all ur items locked because now you have a tier set and dom ...
The whole exanpsion was f up with dom set. The whole loot system was f up without tier sets imo
mellow urchin
alright man
topaz merlin
The whole exanpsion was f up with dom set. The whole loot system was f up withou...
???
livid ferry
feral schooner
ok 🙂
livid ferry
Domination sets weren’t a good system but saying they fucked up the xpac is a stretch lmfao
Its a stretch to even call it a stretch
topaz merlin
I should probably apologise for jokingly saying that I can blame Scarizard for being unable to get the daggers yet and complaining about the pain of PuGing it. Really didn't think it'd start a 5 hour discussion argument.
feral schooner
Domination sets weren’t a good system but saying they fucked up the xpac is a st...
loot wise imo yes.
mellow urchin
eveyrone is on board with complaining about bad rng
mellow urchin
we can all feel solidarity with a fellow rogue that has had bad rng with the daggers
i killed mythic sylvanas with only a normal dagger equipped in my offhand, which in hindsight was probably even a dps loss to use over a 252 statted dagger
tepid prawn
I should probably apologise for jokingly saying that I can blame Scarizard for b...
Don't worry, I don't think it was you who started it.
topaz merlin
Yeah. My main bitching point is the fact that every other rogue in my guild that raids has 2. I have 0. But I joined them after they stopped farming Heroic Sylv and the one who said he would come help funnel them got kicked and hasn't logged in since :(
topaz merlin
Don't worry, I don't think it was you who started it.
I was the first to mentioned looting daggers at 10:45-ish.
livid ferry
Also the idea that not having tier sets fucked up the loot system is
mellow urchin
@livid ferry sub bug fixes today? 
livid ferry
Its only tuesday
livid ferry
Was last week tuesday too
mellow urchin
uhh
livid ferry
I feel like its usually wednesday
wind furnace
i thought its wednesday usually, but i could be wrong
mellow urchin
you know
ppl always say that
"i thought it was wednesday usually"
but my head is wired to always assume a build on tuesdays
and idk why
round orbit
hopefully the big news doesnt distract too much
no doubt the teams will be asking some questions
mellow urchin
i mean i'll delay my happiness and joy a bit for the sake of blizz devs being allowed to dream about a life without kotick
tepid prawn
but my head is wired to always assume a build on tuesdays
I think I've seen the build happen at 2 am my time, so technically Wednesday for us
but prime time Tuesday for the NA folk
But I could be just a pepega as well, who knows
who keeps track
wind furnace
i don't think it changes anything for the employees tbh, mainly changes things for the top end of the company
mellow urchin
a lot of things changes for the employees
depending on how microsoft want to structure things ofc
but a thing like this is a huge change for any employee
maybe not immediate, but there will be down the line
mellow urchin
livid ferry
livid ferry
Mmochampion nostradamus
wind furnace
a lot of things changes for the employees
the takeover won't be in effect before 2023
mellow urchin
the actual transition into microsoft yes
wind furnace
hard to predict what ms changes internally after that point
mellow urchin
its a very hard thing to see from the outside
livid ferry
Ye i really don’t understand it
Microsoft basically saying “ye we gonna buy you”
But have no say in what goes down until then?
mellow urchin
but as a professional in change/risk handling, i'd say being bought by a completely different company with different values and different managers is one of the biggest changes you can experience as an employee. And thats just facts, but to what degree is impossible to know.
mellow urchin
But have no say in what goes down until then?
i'd say the CEOs of blizzard and acti will report to Spencer
livid ferry
Probably
mellow urchin
about numbers, or changes
nova nexus
Ye i really don’t understand it
there a transition that takes place as approvals for the acquisition take place
mellow urchin
i dont think acti-blizz are allowed to make any bigger changes
during that time
so bobby cant just sell the entire fucking thing and ditch it before the acquisition is 100% complete
topaz merlin
And MSOFT will be able to lean on ActiBlizz for certain things as well.
As conditions for the acquisition. They may not bother but they could considering that long term costs due to those decisions will be borne by them and not ActiBlizz as we know it.
mellow urchin
I am not sure microsoft
views the company as acti-blizz
Activision creates their own set of games
Blizzard makes their own games
already
wind furnace
activision was probably a bigger impact factor than the blizzard lineup for the aquisation
call of duty has a very big reach
wind furnace
i did count king under activision
but you are correct, they have a big share in the mobile market
mellow urchin
so what is blizzard then?
wind furnace
or did i lose something in translation
mellow urchin
in their earnings reports they always separate all 3
wind furnace
blizz is in a interessting position
mellow urchin
you have the activision column
the king column
and the blizzard column
king makes more than activision and blizzard
wind furnace
oh, i assumed king had earning call under activision
i assume it makes sense to count them as 3 companies then
wind furnace
fair, i was wrong in my assumption
delicate osprey
i like how wow is the best % of investment but they still dont invest in it
like it has the plague or something
buoyant gyro
Blizzard’s numbers haven’t been fantastic on most financial reports over most recent years. They didn’t keep up with market trends during the pandemic overall.
King was up to $300m operating income last quarter.
dry jungle
Blizzard’s numbers haven’t been fantastic on most financial reports over most re...
Blizzard has been steadily losing subscribers while earning more money year over year. Financially it's fine, but the playerbase itself has moved to other games
We now have fewer active users across all Blizzard games than right after Overwatch came out
buoyant gyro
Classic was a rather large growth of income for them on the Blizzard side. It has helped blunt decreases elsewhere.
wind furnace
growing income from less players means that people are more likely to spend money
what seems to go well with the assumption that blizz fans are very loyal
buoyant gyro
Retail players seem to rather consistently downplay how much Classic actually saved Blizzard’s financial outlook if you watch all the statements about it.
dry jungle
Oh, very much so. That and D2R was huge for MAUs
wind furnace
classic is a cash cow
topaz merlin
So I've been thinking. On sustained 2 target encounters we currently Shuriken Storm while outside of dance to max CP then finish right?
With the new 4p would it be worth in Shadow Blades only storming once to get 4cp then finish to try and fish for shadowstrikes?
Instead of wasting the extra CP.
I'd look into learning how to do the APL changes myself but its exam season so no time to learn.
clear zephyr
More CP is higher chance to shadow strike
Plus you’ll have to factor in less CDR for shadow dance
topaz merlin
I was more thinking about the wasted CP over time.
topaz merlin
Nvm. I was thinking 4. So it taking you to 4/6 not 3/6
clear zephyr
Ye
3 target makes sense though
Especially with shadow technique
Won’t hit every time but most likely atleast every other finisher will be 5 cp
wind furnace
3 target, finish on 4+ when shb is up:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ckSYMhGcPsTHNqCbr6bdUZ
topaz merlin
That is kinda funny.
clear zephyr
Well 4 target rotation just went 3 target 😆
topaz merlin
Yeah. I was hoping for a "Oh cool idea Brey" or a "You're an idiot Brey". Not a "🤷 Brey"
xD
wind furnace
why, the idea seemed fine
topaz merlin
Nah I mean I was expecting for it to at least make a difference not come out damage neutral on that round of sims.
topaz merlin
Yeah, thats good I suppose.
clear zephyr
This is without double legendary correct
topaz merlin
Well it was a fair idea I suppose.
clear zephyr
Yes good thinking thanks for input
mellow urchin
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9A5o5q97CCuWgvNbCXrvcG>
are you sure there is actual change
in these sims
something being THAT close with something changed seems a bit off
like 5 dps difference just sounds like margin errors
wind furnace
its a simple apl change
spell_targets>=4 to >=(4-buff.shadow_blades.up)
basically just converting the regular 4 target 4 cp finishing rule to a 3 target finishing rule when shb is up
wind furnace
the sim is 3 targets
wind furnace
wind furnace
do you expect it to be a win on 2 targets?
to finish on 4 instead of 5+
during blades
seems like its a small win even
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8GkqHfQgKFr7P8xmUq9VF9
quartz idol
is it not worth to use perforated stacks on 3 targets?
wind furnace
it is worth to use them up to higher target counts
so yes its worth
at least outside of dance, during dance i need to double check
esp. with akaaris now giving stacks
quartz idol
cuz the sim above is just ignoring them
wind furnace
wdym?
it wouldn't cast backstab if it was ignoring pv given the target count
or do you mean during dance?, if so yes we haven't put in the apl optimizations for that
actions.stealthed+=/backstab,if=buff.perforated_veins.stack>=5&buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3
^ this looks fairly good, but need to have a target check to it as it won't be a damage win on all target counts
quartz idol
give me a sec
ok, took me a moment to realize I was simming 2 targets
but I mean this
unless I fucked up something
it could use some polishing as well cuz I noticed in that opener you can get lucky and get perforated stacks from the first strike and then you get a bunch of set procs and it does strike->maintenance stuff->finisher->finisher->backstab-> and then dances
so first dance is about 6 sec in, after 2-3 finishers
wind furnace
oh
quartz idol
# Dance during Symbols or above threshold. actions.stealth_cds+="/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&(variable.shd_threshold|!talent.enveloping_shadows.enabled|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=1.2|buff.chaos_bane.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>10)&(buff.perforated_veins.stack<4|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>3)"
at the bottom it was targets.shuriken_storm>2, I changed it to 3
wind furnace
ah fair
quartz idol
so it was basically ignoring stabs between dances if you had more than 2 targets
wind furnace
did you test on 4 too
quartz idol
no, I only did 3
quartz idol
yea, but on 4 its gonna ignore it, let me see if its worth on 4
wind furnace
wait, why is your sim so much faster XD
quartz idol
I started it before I typed 😄
buoyant gyro
I mean at 4T it won't really do anything
Because Shadowstrike isn't used at 4T
Unless you try a HAC or DS sim instead
quartz idol
also I am doing 80k iterations for some reason, but that shouldn't be a problem
yea that is true as well
wind furnace
true
buoyant gyro
I think this is only an issue coming up now due to the conditions added for T28
shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=3+(buff.the_rotten.up|runeforge.akaaris_soul_fragment|set_bonus.tier28_2pc)...
Which raises the target threshold from 3 to 4
with the 2pc
quartz idol
it could possibly be better if you add the stab in dance conditions
wind furnace
means it needs a +set_bonus.tier28
buoyant gyro
Probably the real test of the target threshold is with add waves, because it could be that the target threshold for USING a Backstab with enough stacks is just way higher
But the target counts atm would have been irrelevant since you couldn't get stacks in multi-target Patchwerk sims in those conditions
(Since you barely ever used Shadowstrike)
wind furnace
so:```diff
- actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&(variable.shd_threshold|!talent.enveloping_shadows.enabled|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=1.2|buff.chaos_bane.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>10)&(buff.perforated_veins.stack<4|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>2)
- actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&(variable.shd_threshold|!talent.enveloping_shadows.enabled|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=1.2|buff.chaos_bane.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>10)&(buff.perforated_veins.stack<4|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>(2+set_bonus.tier28_2pc))```
buoyant gyro
To isolate it you'd probably want some raid events or something that brought multiple targets after you had stacks
wind furnace
it probably is way higher
buoyant gyro
To double check what the consumption threshold is
quartz idol
is it only the 2 piece set bonus that makes you strike on 3 targets
buoyant gyro
Might be able to just fake it by making the baseline APL bad on purpose and always Shadowstrike in Stealthed list but leave non-Stealth list normal
wind furnace
due to this:actions.build+="/shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=2&(!covenant.necrolord|cooldown.serrated_bone_spike.max_charges-charges_fractional>=0.25|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)&buff.perforated_veins.stack<=4"
buoyant gyro
So you always had full stacks outside of Dance
And could figure out which was better
Since atm there is a dependency on Shadowstrike vs. Shuriken Storm in the Stealthed list for testing
wind furnace
huh?
you could just sim with 4p
as pv will be applied during dance even on high targets
buoyant gyro
I just mean you could make the APL so it always used Shadowstrike no matter what target count it was
So that it would be easier to test the target threshold for consuming PV buffs outside of Stealth
In an isolated way
wind furnace
ye sure, lets do that
quartz idol
@buoyant gyro btw increasing the threshold for using perforated counts even on 4+ targets
buoyant gyro
Might save some time fussing with getting the conditions to trigger anyway
quartz idol
you don't shadowstrike but your finishers do
buoyant gyro
yeah I guess that's true
quartz idol
and it looks like ignoring it on 4+ is the play
though there is a question if you would be playing perforated on 4+ targets in the first place
livid ferry
Nah
buoyant gyro
I mean it's still relevant since you still might be running PV with adds on a fight
Even if you're mostly set up for ST
Might not be enough add uptime for it to be worth swapping Conduits
wind furnace
it does atm use backstab even on higher target counts
and i simmed earlier to not use bs was not a win up to 5 targets
but lets do it the other way and use shadowstrike always to guarantee stacks
seems to lose on 5+ targets
means:
- actions.build+="/shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=2&(!covenant.necrolord|cooldown.serrated_bone_spike.max_charges-charges_fractional>=0.25|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)&buff.perforated_veins.stack<=4"
+ actions.build+="/shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=2&(!covenant.necrolord|cooldown.serrated_bone_spike.max_charges-charges_fractional>=0.25|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)&(buff.perforated_veins.stack<=4|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)"
- actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&(variable.shd_threshold|!talent.enveloping_shadows.enabled|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=1.2|buff.chaos_bane.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>10)&(buff.perforated_veins.stack<4|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>2)
+ actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.shd_combo_points&(variable.shd_threshold|!talent.enveloping_shadows.enabled|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=1.2|buff.chaos_bane.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>10)&(buff.perforated_veins.stack<4|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>3)
+ actions.stealthed+=/backstab,if=buff.perforated_veins.stack>=5&buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=3
wait, you don't have the change in those sims?
wind furnace
the 2nd one not
as they only compared the use of pv stacks vs not
oh ye, it wouldn't delay dance due to that
quartz idol
oh is that using them in general
wind furnace
ye
quartz idol
I see
wind furnace
using pv vs. not using them
i think that was the intent unless i missunderstood
but to complete the cycle
lets evaluate the other condition for pv too
quartz idol
ye, ye, I just thought you were simming the stabs between dances, but I saw the diff now
wind furnace
seems to be consistent with the 4 targets
turbid scaffold
Morning guys, I am wondering to play Rogue main for 9.2 - I know there is some tuning coming up but maybe you can share your thoughts about the following thing.
Do you think Sub or Sin will still be the go to specc for raiding and m+?
I really can't get my head around outlaw and get no fun while playing it - so I just want to avoid to get stuck in the non-dagger specc.
unkempt peak
@turbid scaffold right now it is too early to try and tell which rogue spec is gonna be the best, it will all come down to how it is tuned at the end of the day, that being said, through speculation and current theory's, unless outlaw gets bladeflurry uncapped sub will still perform super well in M+, Sin is favoured as the progression raid spec due to the heavy RNG in the sub tier bonuses, but once again it will all come down to tuning
turbid scaffold
Okay, thanks for your feedback - so wait a bit more and let tuning happen. It seems like I should ask this question again 1-2 weeks before patch to get a more reliable answer
mellow urchin
Correct
So far they have nerfed like 3-4 bonuses
I am expecting sweeping balance on almost all tier sets
Which will obviously change the meta
unkempt peak
Exactly, if they are potentially releasing the next patch late Feb or early March, I'd expect to see the tuning train really start moving out of the station...
turbid scaffold
Just keep praying that the Sub train doesn't derail 😅
mellow urchin
Well one could argue that the massive rng in the set has already derailed sub
Say you play venthyr sub in the next patch
The rng of that build surpasses almost every single build/spec in the game
Which is wild on a spec that has rarely been massively rng, we got a taste of it this tier because of the banshee daggers
But even the daggers is nothing compared to the rng in this set
turbid scaffold
Which rng so you mean, endless Shadowblades if you get lucky enough ?
mellow urchin
both the 2p and 4p
are % chance to proc
meaning, during a bad moment of procs, you are basically getting 0 value from the set
and its not in your hands
you cant do anything to make it proc more
its simply down to luck
livid ferry
mellow urchin
if anything its a convenient excuse for all sub rogues
"ah shit parse, bad rng"
go next
cus theres so much rng in the spec in 9.2 that almost nobody will want to check everything bound to rng
unkempt peak
Does make me sad that the whole set is RNG, and to such a large degree - I'd be fine with some RNG, but making the whole thing fully RNG with no badluck protection just seems counter intuitive for Sub as a spec, considering I love sub due to the main lack of RNG a lot of specs can hinge on.
winged fiber
the good news is
with good rng you can overcome the simps who aren't playing perfectly or get bad rng
the bad news is the simps with good play and good rng will be completely beyond touchable
death to externals
wind furnace
cus theres so much rng in the spec in 9.2 that almost nobody will want to check ...
you could potentially make a log parser that shows procs in the timeline
I also think, at least if the proc chances stay similar to what they are now, that you can estimate a certain impact from procs as a baseline gain from the set
ofc there is no guarantee, but the worse case of no procs in a certain time window is very low
thin arrow
Hows it looking for Sub in M+ on 9.2 still ok ?
stark sierra
Sub seems pretty nice especially with the tier set and double legendary
Main issue is that the set is kinda rng
mellow urchin
you could potentially make a log parser that shows procs in the timeline
ye but its just so much
if you break it down
i mean i will probably miss things
wind furnace
log analysis def. will require a lot more work
mellow urchin
just things like getting WM on your PV backstab and it critting
is quite a bit of dps
getting just regular WM shadowstrikes is medium amounts of dps
Getting banshee procs in sub 25% hp
add every single WM shadowstrike being able to give 5 seconds of Blades
every single finisher can now give a shadowstrike which in turn can WM and can give blades
wind furnace
its a nice feedback loop
forest hamlet
Getting banshee procs in sub 25% hp
With the sac bug you can remove the rng from that part at least partially.
mellow urchin
ye for sure
i just dont consider bugs/exploits
but its definitely less rng
with the bug
forest hamlet
Did anybody get banned for that btw?
mellow urchin
nobody is getting banned for it
forest hamlet
Not even 3 days warning ban or something?
mellow urchin
when was the last time blizzard banned someone for doing performance based exploits
exploits that doesnt hurt anyone else
forest hamlet
Idk
I'm not sure how many performance based exploits there are, except for that wonky stuff Rextroy comes up with from time to time
forest hamlet
They still haven't fixed that?
mellow urchin
well there are tons of different duping stuff
or has been
but ppl that abuse those bugs
typically get bans
forest hamlet
Duping spectral tigers, let's go
mellow urchin
doing the sylvanas dagger thing, or doing the prepull shit
will never get you banned
i dont even think ppl that brought maw weapons into CN got banned for it
forest hamlet
I have to keep it hidden from my rogue pal tho. We don't always have 2 palas.
forest hamlet
i dont even think ppl that brought maw weapons into CN got banned for it
That worked? How much dmg did it do?
forest hamlet
So more than the stupid stuff with sac?
mellow urchin
oh ye
not even close
the sac bug is small
we're talking 900 dps over 5 mins
its not a huge amount of dmg
forest hamlet
On Sylvanas it's probably more, but yea
lunar fractal
Probably not since you have so much downtime
Or well, maybe more but not a whole lot
forest hamlet
You can't get 4 stacks on her tho normally
mellow urchin
ye its a decent chunk
of dps
but whenever you see like
1000 ppl do something
like almost all rogues
abuse a bug that could be fixed
i think you can be pretty safe that it wont get you banned
thats not how it works
its on blizzard to fix the bug
forest hamlet
And right now progress is over. I miss 1 farm raid. That's fine by me
forest hamlet
I mean legendary swaps do the same
They do way less tho, I think.
lunar fractal
Sure but a bug won't get you banned based on how much more dps it gives you 😛
mellow urchin
things that give your character progression unfair advantages
like ppl that spammed a WQ that gave AP in Legion
you could just keep doing it over and over
got them banned
or when ppl bought the xp pots in BFA
and could level 110-120 in 2-3 hours
that got them banned
its not dps shit
they dont care about dps
forest hamlet
like ppl that spammed a WQ that gave AP in Legion
Yea, who would do that 
mellow urchin
stuff that the pvp paladin finds
might get some ppl banned
because its pvp
and it affects others
lunar fractal
Gotta be much more cautious in pvp
mellow urchin
cheating in pvp is very different to getting slightly better parse in SoD
lunar fractal
Yeah exactly
That 900 extra dps isn't gonna make or break your kill
If it would be, then you probably would get it without that dps too
wind furnace
iit makes sense that exploits are more problematic in pvp given that you play on system with competitive integrity
item/bug abuse exists since forever but abuse of known/public bugs like sac or the dust prepull stuff did never lead to bans
ruby pulsar
What is this sac bug, that you have been talking about?
wind furnace
basically you get stacks for sylvanas dagger if you take damage while affected by sac or kindred
#tc-research has some discussions about it
steel meadow
it is worth to press bs in dance with 6 pv stacks right?
mellow urchin
in 9.2 ye