9.2 Feedback and Discussion

[livid ferry]

Not a difficult concept

[wind furnace]

i mean, if it comes to me

i would drop a lot of restrictions in general

also with the id system in mythic

i might just got burned too much, this makes me think somewhat less positive to have a "no restrictions" crossplay

[delicate osprey]

id system in mythic is kind of to stop degenerate play

but nowadays it also does not make much sense vs other mmos

but wow is kind of the old man of mmos and does his own shit now

[wind furnace]

👀

[warm olive]

yeah has to be, mythic raid testing this week already announced

[wind furnace]

ah, nice

[warm olive]

which prob puts the patch in like 6 weeks or so

as expected

[wind furnace]

6-8 weeks is expected

[unkempt peak]

damn the patch is about 2 months away and we havent seen really any class / legendary tuning

makes me hope we dont just get a repeat of 9.1/9.1.5 with those elusive talent changes they said they had planned but only like 5 talents across the board got touched

lets hope they have something decent in the pipe to push out with the next PTR update, other than changes to 3 specs tier sets

[civic terrace]

I only know about them promising changes to pvp talents, not regular ones

And we got those

[livid ferry]

They didn’t specify

They just said “talents”

Don’t think blizz is dumb enough to just say a general term like talents if they meant just pvp talents

And they did touch talents just nothing actually relevant

They did the classic “buff some dog shit numerically, and it still ends up worse than the best option”

[delicate osprey]

inb4 they buff dark to 35%

our job here is done whoosh

although if they buff NS to 20 or 15 i would not even mind

[livid ferry]

DS should not be buffed

[grave peak]

i like the suggestion max gave, just get an intern to go through each underused talent and buff it by 5% each week

[livid ferry]

If it got buffed it would be extremely unenjoyable to play lol

[delicate osprey]

i mean if we trust blizz to do anything but number changes we are zzz

[livid ferry]

That talent literally does not function on the current spec

Its sad

[delicate osprey]

yea kinda oof

as much as i liked it

same as subter

1 sec extra of dance when it lasts 8 secs

or was it 2

[livid ferry]

1

Cant even utilize the global

Unless you delay symbols and shit

[delicate osprey]

i would rather play ns and trust in the fate of the cards to give me procs

it would be really funny if we could just mongo strike evis into infinity

[livid ferry]

NS venthyr fellas gonna feel real bad when they don’t proc anything and run dry

Instant swap back to sf lmao

[delicate osprey]

ahaha not really tbh blades uptime is kinda scare

[livid ferry]

Although the profile fuu used favors ns pretty hard

Doubt its actually good if you have proper stats

[delicate osprey]

you must bee really unlucky to not proc wm tier 2 or tier 4

in the two finishers to run out of energy

but we know it will happen to us kek

never lucky rubber proccy

[wind furnace]

i think the entire set can have so many issues

esp. if they nerf it

[delicate osprey]

what do you mean just proc harder

top logs will be so funny

i imagine a new player looking at the casts

why does this mfer use strike evis all the time

[wind furnace]

ye, i feel like there will be a lot of "fun" things to come from the set bonus if it remains as is

[delicate osprey]

im really looking forward to the new trinkets

usually last raid ones are lit

[wind furnace]

idk

i don't remember one specifically from nyalotha or atbt

but i remember trinkets from NH/ToS and EP

[delicate osprey]

antorus had the cool tornado ones

and the legendary trink that no one saw

[wind furnace]

oh ye the legendary ones, i forgot about those

[delicate osprey]

nya lotha had drest trink and also the vita set

[wind furnace]

i just think we had some rly memorable ones in the ones i mentioned

[delicate osprey]

yea for sure

[wind furnace]

e.g. umbra moonglaives and the KJ one did stand out for me in ToS

[delicate osprey]

font and specter are so cool

[wind furnace]

or coral and similar in EP

[delicate osprey]

coral was just unfair tbh

[wind furnace]

coral ink pot

[hoary zephyr]

Did they implement the bug fixes with the sin and outlaw rework?

Also are those sims in the pin w/ bug fixes? Or without

[winged fiber]

moonglaives was lit

[livid ferry]

with bug fixes

idk if any of the sub set fixes went on ptr

alt raid

[hoary zephyr]

Damn

Guess I am testing the raid tomorrow w/ sin

[mellow urchin]

they are not

in

[coarse quiver]

wait is something WRONG with sub on ptr?

[mellow urchin]

set is bugged

still

[plucky storm]

Yeah, it exists

[hoary zephyr]

FU

Another sub tier pls

[mellow urchin]

I mean looking at sets alone

Its not a sub tier if ur serious about playing the best possible thing

Rng set kinda bad for prog

So unless they completely rework the sub set, sin is better for prog, no doubt

[livid ferry]

[plucky storm]

[hoary zephyr]

Yeah but no shot you play sin next tier

[unkempt peak]

yeah, unless some of the big issues are address i might not be playing sub next tier

not sure what else ill play, probably what ever my GM says we need

which sucks because i love sub, i think Sin is Okay ish and i hate outlaw. so i dont know if it will be a full blown reroll or just a spec change, but i really hope we start seeing more stuff come to the PTR, if we are only a few months out from it dropping we really need to see them start getting a move on with balancing and tuning

not 2 specs tier sets a week, that is just a joke to me.

[hoary zephyr]

I think Sub will be fine

compared to sin

obviously if you are a good player, you should know how to play all 3 and prepped for it

but sub wont be dogshit

DEFINITELY Sub fight in Anduin

like

absolutely no fucking shot you play Sin or Outlaw for that fight

[plucky storm]

Cope

[livid ferry]

yea i definitely have all 3 specs prepped lmao

good 1

[plucky storm]

Sub, affliction and windwalker?

[livid ferry]

i'll never make a monk

windwalker worthless spec

[plucky storm]

Cope + raid buff + rop + burst you wish you had

[livid ferry]

💀

good spec

nah g ww str8 ass

[unkempt peak]

Is warrior looking good?

[livid ferry]

that picture is sylvanas p3

not some ptr shit

[unkempt peak]

Ahhhhh

I'm interested to see what the Sims spit out for rankings come 9.2

[hoary zephyr]

I hope sin is dogshit so you are forced to play prepull dust shit Sub next tier

[livid ferry]

(kyrian as well)

[steel meadow]

Fuck kyrian

[winged fiber]

kyrian would have to be like a 1k dps diff for me to play it on prog

just staring at your cp bar for no reason lol

[stark sierra]

The 2 set for assa is actually bonkers if it doesn’t get nerfed

[hoary zephyr]

ya

[coarse quiver]

yeah theres no shot people play kyrian sub for prog on any boss they have responsibilities on

is there even a way sub tier can be reasonably nerfed without just gutting the chances on both 2pc and 4pc?

id hate it if this tier sets proc% gets gutted in order to nerf sub

[plucky storm]

You can remove interactions

But removing interactions is a muddy way to nerf it

Could also make the blades time less

Or make the shadowstrikes deal reduced damage

[wind furnace]

still comes down to tuning, if subtlety does similar damage baseline and has a high damage celling from rng it could still be compatitive

[winged fiber]

i'll be good 1 out of every 4 pull guys i swear

[wind furnace]

reliability is kind of the big fear

4p proccing at reduced efficiency looks for me like one of the better approaches to nerf the set

could also do sth like 50% efficiency and only proc 1 cp

[delicate osprey]

might need more overall info about their target dps for all specs sub is weird as it has a big baseline then leggos are meh but tier is decently middle to top strong

but then we are also in the boat if we dont do 1k+ than omegautility bois we get the wood treatment

[wind furnace]

i kinda assume that only nerfing the 4p wouldn't be sufficient given that the 2p is already 10% dps increase ^^

[delicate osprey]

so yea glad i dont play top 30 anymore and can just chill play rogue instead of playing warrior/dk/dh every tier kek

even ret pala is up there now

and now feral with kyrian value

[feral schooner]

Tbh all 3 rouge specs are completely viable now and I assume it will be next tier also

[delicate osprey]

rogue is always viable because mythic bosses are made to be killed by like 2000 guilds

but if shit happens like uu nat

[wind furnace]

hacha has a good point

[feral schooner]

And with viable I mean insane St

[delicate osprey]

sad times come and go for some classes/specs

[wind furnace]

there is the issue that e.g. dh offers everything you have as rogue and more

with one single dps spec

and tuning seems to be in their favor most of the time

[delicate osprey]

i mean nowadays i dont even mind not being best st bt then dh warr and dk have better or same st EXECUTE and can do mechanics have raid cds and more valuable skills

[feral schooner]

Tbh damage wise dh is 20% behind

Our dagger this tier gave us an execute

[delicate osprey]

yea in the tier where execute is useless in last boss that was kinda sad

[feral schooner]

True was a troll that Blizzard put our execute weapon aka dagger at the last Boss where there is no execute 😆

[wind furnace]

top guilds did not bring rogue because darkness and the burst from dh was valued more

[feral schooner]

And because perfecto didn't get his unholy bonus

[wind furnace]

subtlety is the spec that by design should offer burst, yet it fails to deliver because the design direction is towards more shd uptime

[coarse quiver]

so you think the design should be designed to be played like dark shadow does? few dances but bigger damage in each?

[wind furnace]

i think late legion and bfa had a very good balance

[delicate osprey]

that helps the class get identity

right now on kyrian on next tier you will have almost 60% or more dance uptime depending on proc rng

[wind furnace]

e.g. dfa did offer a not insane but strong burst every ~25 secs

[delicate osprey]

that is kinda

[feral schooner]

Might use then dark shadows who knows

[delicate osprey]

lol no

[wind furnace]

and in bfa with NV you had a good burst every dance while having dark/es both as valid options

[delicate osprey]

that talent even got nerfed for no reason coming into shadowlands

when it was already worse for st

[wind furnace]

the only thing that might happen is the use of NS

and thats probably only on venthyr

[delicate osprey]

that is true venth might use NS

[feral schooner]

But but energy

So more pooling?

[wind furnace]

not nessecery

[delicate osprey]

just proc harder

[wind furnace]

because 2p/4p do change the energy economy

finisher generate energy

[delicate osprey]

chances are inside one dance getting a wm 2p or 4p proc is highly likely

you can also use symbols for energy

something that is not done a lot right now

[feral schooner]

Tbh I hope kyrian sub is best for progression is easier to progress a boss with

[wind furnace]

it kind of is by default hacha

because you always keep your energy on a low-ish level due to using builders

[delicate osprey]

yea but what i mean is using it inside like a halfway dance window

instead of backstabbing SoD finish then enter dance

[wind furnace]

i am still unsure if that ends up better

[delicate osprey]

no idea

we will need at least all gear from tier and things done before looking into those

[wind furnace]

its something i tested with dark iirc in beta but never actually came to a positive result

[delicate osprey]

dark is just cursed

[wind furnace]

dark just simply got fucked by design

[delicate osprey]

it may be more of a ns thing with 2p 4p

it even got nerfed

it was so unbeliable

[wind furnace]

having dark being 15% up from ES instead of 25% is a big nerf

[delicate osprey]

and they even nerfed es twice

[wind furnace]

and the charge/duration change of dance makes it even worse

i mean if they wouldn't have nerfed es

we would have 70% dance uptime by now

instead of the ~55%

[delicate osprey]

ahaha true

[wind furnace]

its just my opinion but nerfing es was healthy for gameplay

it already feels like you spend most of your time in dance

but i think i have a diffrent vision on the spec that puts shadow dance in a spot of being a short impactfull cd

kind of like meta for dh but with a very low duration and a higher frequency

[delicate osprey]

yea longer and spammy dance is hmm

[steel meadow]

Is there any info, why didnt they release set bugfixes they've showed few weeks ago?

Is it cancelled or they just forgor 💀

[mellow urchin]

Think he forgot

He said there was meant to be an assa set nerf in this build too

But just busy with other things I guess

[wind furnace]

^ that or it just didn't make it in this build

[livid ferry]

Next build gonna ship with bug fixes and also nerfs

Gg

[wind furnace]

if they do nerfs, how they approach that is relevant

[livid ferry]

Ye thats obvious

[civic terrace]

Betrayal

[wind furnace]

its good, it means rogue looks less oppressive in raid testing

all part of a secret plan to keep us not nerfed

[visual olive]

did they fix kyrian on ptr yet

[livid ferry]

no

no bug fixes were implemented

[wind furnace]

nothing changed for subtlety on ptr so far, next build

[winged fiber]

nathria sub the movie 2 electric boogaloo

[hoary zephyr]

How was testing

[static crystal]

Sorry for asking a dumb question. But should I be doing torghast still? I have my 262 Lego already

[civic terrace]

If you wanna craft any other legendaries in the future and you dont have the resources laying around to do that then you want want to stockpile some yes

[livid ferry]

fine

[winged fiber]

shadowstep lowkey busted this raid

rogue has lots of very good interaction with bosses so far

and almost every boss is fun

[mellow urchin]

fun is all that matters

[grave peak]

ya i love shadowstepping skolex and porting inside the boss and dying

not saying that happened to me or anything

[civic terrace]

Huh? That doesnt kill you

Or well, it didnt kill me

[livid ferry]

going inside the boss killed you?

that was my default point to dodge at lmao

max range -> go mid

[grave peak]

i think so?

if not that a puddle

[livid ferry]

nah

[grave peak]

idk that boss was aids

[livid ferry]

you must have got clapped by the tank mech

[grave peak]

probably

[livid ferry]

i went into mid like

100 times

best way to do the mech

unless they fix that

you just max range -> converge mid

[civic terrace]

You mean the puddles?

Did indeed feel like standing out and moving inwards was working well

[delicate osprey]

yea best way to do skolex is do a loose spread then

go from melee to inside the boss

the halo boi was oof tho

[civic terrace]

We had a crapton of lag on that boss

Also engaging in combat with it seemed to break stealth

Without taking any damage

[wind furnace]

reminds me on orgozoa

iirc you can prevent that by using stealth very close to the pull

also you can just do the dust opener and start in dance ^^

[civic terrace]

Suppose so

Was only on that boss though
Anyways I reported it, surely itll be picked up along the way

[livid ferry]

Was experiencing that too

[subtle shale]

The lag plus puddlehitbox on first boss was rough

[delicate osprey]

it was so fake the guardian core poop

[civic terrace]

Ye or the fact that they did half your health in damage the second you set foot on one

[subtle shale]

Aye and the ridiculous hit box was cherry on the top

[rare ether]

hello gamers

I'm gonna do a bigger round of posts next week for rogue and DK again - been very busy with the raid (since it is my main job)

but wanted to give sub ppl a heads up that those fixes are still coming, just a lot more technically tricky that they first appeared

i'll say as much in the post - but it's stuff like - if I just make it work with Akaari's, it'll proc infinitely off of one Shadowstrike lol

so we have tech coming that will let us do all of the things shadowstrike should do, but it's not likely gonna be in the very next build (since the cutoff for that would be today)

i know that's a bummer for those of u who want like, tuning or changes or just to see the set work as intended but

there u go

[wind furnace]

nice 👍

[tepid prawn]

Sounds great, thank you!

[wind furnace]

towards akaari, it atm behaves more like a bleed , what means the gain from akaari on the tier set itself only gets marginal higher procs unless there will be technical changes to it due to "lost ticks".

[tepid prawn]

It's unfortunate, but at least we know that it's under works and we'll definitely see a working version whenever 9.2 eventually gets released.

[wind furnace]

Also to shortly go into that topic, is there a plan to change the tier set as its atm quite a bit too much reliant on procs.

[delicate osprey]

man xy mox is garrosh all over again

you will send classes that can just go through then come back zzzzzzzzz

[rare ether]

so I'll say there isn't a direct plan, but here's a potential route I could see this taking

which is - the set seems overtuned atm, and that's without bugfixes

so naturally we'd expect w/ fixes the damage to go up more (though harder to say since some of these are more edge-cases)

from there, tuning would mean we'd have to look at what sub's numbers would need to be to hit 'balance' - and it's possible those numbers are too low to be satisfying

if that occurred, then yeah there could be a change

like even if it was perfectly balanced and you did good damage it's not likely people would want a set that reads as 2% chance to proc or 10% on finishers or something (those numbers aren't real but yknow)

[winged fiber]

Are we going to be able to test double legendaries though / is that going to be taken into consideration, because ours are quite bad and in testing i'm seeing other classes do relatively our damage if not equal / more with much better legendaries potentially on the way for them

[rare ether]

I don't have info abt that cause it's not my thing but the intent is for them to be testable asap - i will also remind ppl that like

comparing one another to other classes is kind of meaningless right now

[livid ferry]

the main worry is just that, if you nerf the proc chance it will be massively unsatisfying to play. It will already naturally have low points because of the nature of the set, and a nerf to the proc chance would just make it even worse

[rare ether]

some sets a mid-rework and some haven't had tuning since they hit ptr, so

[winged fiber]

true

is just worry about nathria happening again where

[livid ferry]

ye

[winged fiber]

set seems strong so we get nerfed but then

[potent vault]

well more so is the power level youre aiming for with tier sets

taking into account double legendaries

and the varied power gain that will bring for specs

[winged fiber]

leggos suck so when rogue actually hits raids i.e. nathria it's quite awful

[livid ferry]

well no

[rare ether]

i just addressed this exact case tho

[livid ferry]

right now with the sims we have

Sub is extremely powerful, even when accounting for 2 lege

so the 2 lege thing isn't super relevant as of rn

[livid ferry]

Yea I realize I sort of reiterated what you said xd

[rare ether]

all I'm saying is that there will inevitably be a best and worst spec - that's always true no matter how finely balanced something is - but more to say that when we have a release date, if some classes are like 'hey it's very close to time and we're like -15% dmg over everyone else'

that's the time to get concerned

when things are still being reworked + some aren't enabled atm

it's a different story to me at least

[winged fiber]

that's fair, is always a worry when your classes viability is purely based on dps though lol

[livid ferry]

If you guys can recreate SoD balance where people are fairly close in throughput, and like all the specs are playable across all classes that would be sick lol

[rare ether]

i'm not a class or combat dude but as a raider and player myself

i definitely want SoD's viability in 9.2

[winged fiber]

yea the balance this tier was great especially for rogue

[livid ferry]

So you say that a mini rework is still on the table?

[potent vault]

Are there any plans to attempt to change the feel of the tier set?

[winged fiber]

all 3 specs viable and good enough to be brought to any raid

[potent vault]

There have been many complaints so far about how reliant it currently is on rng

[winged fiber]

he posted kind of about that above

#916284169057878037 message

[potent vault]

No he didnt

[winged fiber]

fuu asked your literal question

[potent vault]

he discussed not nerfing it in a way like antorous where it is an obscenely low proc chance

Yes and Fuu didnt get an actual answer

I am not asking about the strength of the set

but the actual gameplay that comes from it

[rare ether]

i do not want to come off as harsh but how is 'i do not have a plan this second, but there are scenarios where a rework could happen' not an answer to 'could reworks be on the table'

i'll say it's unlikely even if a rework occurs that the shape of the set will change massively - as like, it's not gonna randomly become a shuriken tornado focused bonus

anyways i gotta go back to making videogames, just wanted to give y'all an update ahead of the update so you don't want to kill me if i diidn't post over the weekend - tl;dr bugfixes harder than they look, will be soon, do not expect next week or ur gonna be sad bc of how builds work

[winged fiber]

ty for the info

[livid ferry]

ty for the communication

regardless of how the set turns out I appreciate your willingness to actually reach out to us and tell us whats coming

[potent vault]

Most certainly is appreciated to hear info so thank you for that!

[rare ether]

at the risk of creating a massive storm, and I think I said this in some form on the forums, but - I think sub is a very high apm class that has a lot of skill expression. I also think, given the amount of various power sources in the game atm, it's harder to give a truly rotationally transforming set bonus while keeping it accessible to people of all skill levels, which is why I've been interested in the 'sometimes, a thing happens you have to react to'

i know people have a blanket idea of 'all rng bad' (i worked on league, lol) but there are kits even in WoW where it's very useful as both a balancing lever and a skill testing tool

that isn't to say there's a literal 0% chance sub couldn't be moved to something else

but just why i took this approach with them

[livid ferry]

I think the 2 pc is actually great, I think if you made the 4 pc something that augments Shadow Blades further and wasn't another RNG proc on top it would be awesome

The compounding of both being RNG is what gets a little weird

[potent vault]

I agree with that

I like the 2 pc it feels nice

but the 4 piece just feels so feast or famine

[livid ferry]

I also think the 2 pc does provide skill expression

[delicate osprey]

To be honest the set is really good as 2 pc the 4 set works too but the two together make it a compound damage event sometimes that is quite cool but may impact when you dont get it much vs getting lucky

with the base skillset of WM procs and the covenants themselves

and yea the 2 pc is really cool as it makes thinking about PV a thing possibly at all times

[livid ferry]

its not even just that lol

if you're kyrian you can actually think about if you wanna press more dances to potentially get more procs of blades

and you're playing this game of maintaining a really long blades

its super fun honestly

It makes a non impactful cd feel actually good

[winged fiber]

the 2 pc is bae

4 pc is good to me just a lil wonky

and yea i love the decision making of ok i rolled 10-20 seconds of blades i can use dances outside of normal rotation here or move this here

[delicate osprey]

yea that too

[winged fiber]

i fucking love that

especially on venth where

you hard hold 2 dances for flag

[delicate osprey]

makes me remember the fond times of denial

trying to omegaextend to infinity

[winged fiber]

lol

[delicate osprey]

here we kinda gamble but it can pay off super hard

[civic terrace]

Im 100% putting an audible notification on the 4pc

I end up wasting globals/builders into full cp every so often now

Sometimes I cant tell if my finisher went off or got parried or something lol

Part of that is just PTR lag but ye

[winged fiber]

yea i need that

i play off audio cues a bunch lol

is why i loved the old bte azerite for outlaw in bfa

[delicate osprey]

oh ace was sweet

ch ch

[winged fiber]

when it procced you got this loud ass sound

CHUGGA CHUGGA

boooooom

was so pog

[civic terrace]

Already got some for MFD and SBS

Can definitely recommend

[mellow urchin]

He's gone now, but i wanna thank scarizard for the open communication, delving deep into sub territory is a scary thing for most ppl, let alone actual devs. Can only echo whats been said already, there was some removal of rng sets today (most notably for warlocks and havoc) and while i don't hate current design, its not great for mythic progress. I do understand its supposed to fit all skill levels tho, so all good in the end.

[livid ferry]

Yea it can't be emphasized enough how amazing it is to actually hear from Blizzard

[unkempt peak]

dudes, so the Destro warlock set bonus basically had all of its RNG removed, so Sub still has hope

if blizzard still remember we exist

[livid ferry]

If you look above the person that made the set said that a rework is still on the table but unlikely

and would only happen if nerfing the set to make it balanced would result in the gameplay being really miserable

[unkempt peak]

i mean i dont want the set to be nerfed because i already think that sub isnt going to be top tier anyway, but i do really dislike the way the set bonuses feel to play with.

[livid ferry]

Its gonna be nerfed

[unkempt peak]

i mean if they nerf the set bonus, they have to buff some of our legendaries / class right? because if they dont we will basically be a C tier Dps right?

[livid ferry]

No lol

that probably won't happen

[unkempt peak]

@livid ferry im curious why you think it will get nerfed? i know the bonus itself is quite potent, but they have to know our class specific legendaries are so much more underwhelming than other classes

[livid ferry]

The dev literally said its overpowered

[unkempt peak]

wouldnt having a stronger set than most kinda balance it out?

[livid ferry]

Our baseline is already stronger than everybodies

If you stripped away everyones borrowed power shit sub would be the best spec

thats why our legendries suck

and were still a top tier st spec

[unkempt peak]

yeah but a lot of specs get kinda carried by their borrowed power, like some balance leggos doing 20% of the specs damage

[livid ferry]

and it doesn't end up mattering

Fire mage has a 25% legendary and we have a 5%

who wins on guardian

us by like 1k

% values mean nothing, its all about the grand total

our grand total on paper rn is big

mages best setup is like 13k with set + 2x lege

ours is 14

[unkempt peak]

is that including the tier sets?

[livid ferry]

yes

its equivalent ger

gear

2+4 + 2x lege

and then just t27 gear

[unkempt peak]

but if outs gets nerfed then wont that make it even rougher? depending on how hard they nerf it? because blizzard arent usually too gentle with nerfs

[livid ferry]

No clue

I don't have a crystal ball I just know what scarizard said earlier today

nerfs are coming

[unkempt peak]

i mean its like obedience right, they could have killed that legendary by nerfing the CDR, but instead they nerfed the versa, which sucked but still make the legendary one of if not our absolute best

[plucky storm]

what's the point

things that are too strong get nerfed

things that are too weak get buffed

[livid ferry]

No thats not true as well lol

[unkempt peak]

i mean if they do nerf it i hope they end up going with a rework, id rather have something less potent but less RNG than something still super RNG and less strong

[plucky storm]

that's how it usually works

[livid ferry]

Individual systems being overpowered or underpowered literally means nothing to them

I'll die on this hill

[unkempt peak]

like even if they just change the 2 piece from 20% to 10% that would feel awful, i know we cant know exactly what they are going to do but i wish they were better at communicating where their mindset is.

[livid ferry]

You can go look at anyones legendaries conduits

whatever

vastly different values between some specs lol

its literally entirely about your grand total throughput

[plucky storm]

bruh, the dev was literally in here talking about his mindset

[livid ferry]

all the individual shit is just knobs to turn

[plucky storm]

what more communication do you want

it's literally the person making the set

[livid ferry]

Yea

like I said

[plucky storm]

in this exact channel

[livid ferry]

the guy literally explained everything above

[plucky storm]

you just need to scroll up

how much more in your face do you want it

[livid ferry]

But sub looks to be one of the better melee in ST right now, and the most glaring tuning knob is the set, so its just gonna get nerfed

But I don't expect a rework

[unkempt peak]

thats my bad, i saw some of his post, but i didnt see all of it - so initially i just thought they were saying the set is too strong and RNG is good because it helps them make things a little easier to balance, i scrolled further up for the rest of it

if not a rework i hope the set still feels interesting, its one of the reasons i really didnt care for the SoD gems/sets, outside of massive winds of winter crits & big damage during the unholy buff they really werent noticeable without going to look at the numbers, especially the blood set felt so dull, i just hope even if the nerf comes it still feels more engaging than the SoD sets

[livid ferry]

is what it is

wcyd

[unkempt peak]

i mean true, the sets will be what ever the devs want them to be, there is only so much impact the players can have

[wind furnace]

Big thank you to @rare ether for giving us information/insight on the thought process, progress and design direction of the tier set.
This kind of communication is very welcome and we hope can continues in the future.

A short summery of his posts:

- The current Tier Set is tuned very high and will get nerfed, focus seems to find other tuning knobs than reducing the proc rate too much.
- A rework of the Tier Set bonuses is not planed but could be considered if they ends up being not satisfying after tuning.```

If you want to read the full conversation, you can find it by following this link or as a attachment to this message.
link: [#916284169057878037 message](/guild/124169701881282560/channel/916284169057878037/)

Keep in mind that opinions might differ and to keep conversation respectful even if there is disagreement on the topic.

[grave peak]

you direct pinged him monkas

[feral schooner]

Thanks for these comments and the summary @wind furnace

[wind furnace]

yes, i think its fair to thank him for his time

[grave peak]

-1% damage tho

[rare ether]

HMMM. since I’m eventually nerfing the set anyways we’ll take the 1% from that and call it good ( )

[mellow urchin]

never ping the devs again fuu, you hear me

[wind furnace]

need to be more carefull in the future to avoid further nerfs

[pliant minnow]

enhance bis melee now, thanks fuu...

[quartz idol]

I don't mind that honestly

[forest hamlet]

Which slots are gonna be for the set? Where do we craft our legos?

[wind furnace]

will depend on the stats of the set pieces, the ones on ptr are still placeholder to my knowlage

[forest hamlet]

Do they drop as tokens?

[wind furnace]

but head/chest/legs are the best in terms of stat budget

[forest hamlet]

So we can probably keep the belt/cloak as kyrian/venthyr and just craft the second legendary on such a slot, because we will need the other for set.

[wind furnace]

it does not seem like they drop as token, but i am unsure

its likely that we just keep the belt and craft e.g. head

but there are a lot of factors, basically the best item depends on what the best item in that slot is.
So the diffrence between the best item in the slot and the legendary is what decides what slot is bis

you will for at least the early weeks/first month of the tier priorize getting your tier set bonus over "bis slot" tho

[forest hamlet]

I was just hoping to get a cheap upgrade now, but I guess nobody knows yet.

[wind furnace]

so if e.g. head would be theoretically bis

but you can get your 2p/4p with the head piece that dropped for you, you will use that

its just an example

[forest hamlet]

Sheesh, gonna be a pain to adjust the legos accordingly.

What ilvl does heroic drop?

[wind furnace]

normal next tier should be equivalent to mythic this tier

[forest hamlet]

So we can probably easily trade normal items and could also trade tier items in heroic, that are on a lego slot.

[wind furnace]

you will just like with domination farm normal to complete the set bonus

[forest hamlet]

Yea, I'm just thinking about specifically not crafting legos for tier-slots to not have to trade them to some other dude 😄

[wind furnace]

there is a catch up system on tier set item

*tier set items

so you will over time be able to craft them

more or less

[forest hamlet]

Oh? I haven't heard of that.

[wind furnace]

you basiclaly get a currency from doing stuff like m+ (via the weekly chest), daily quests in the new zone, raiding, etc.

[forest hamlet]

Ewww, dailies...

[wind furnace]

and you can the upgrade a item to a tier set

i am unsure about the fine details, but it seems more of a bad luck protection system

because you will get the tier sets fastest by getting them as a raid drop

[forest hamlet]

Sure, just like the daggers, won't be an issue.

[wind furnace]

daggers in general are a issue due to the low amount of specs that have it on the loot table

not having bonus rolls or weapon tokens just makes it worse

[forest hamlet]

Isn't it just, as in sub and assa?

[wind furnace]

daggers in general are also on some caster drop tables iirc

[forest hamlet]

Not the ones with agility

[wind furnace]

but caster daggers don't have main stat, so we can't use them

so ye, it is rogue only

[rare ether]

currency to transform any piece into a set piece comes from all endgame content (if you played in 8.3, it’s similar to echoes or nyalotha)

so you can just do raiding or m+ or whatever you want and get it over time, shouldn’t need to grind it or engage with Zereth Mortis too much (pvp, weekly quests, lots of stuff)

set pieces are chest head shoulders legs hands

as fuu is saying at a certain point into the patch you’ll unlock the ability to transform any piece of gear you have into a set piece for some of that currency, so TLDR: keep the highest ilvl pieces you find from Vault or whatever and you can transform them

I.e. If a mythic 15 vault gives me a headpiece, later on I can make that 252* (idk what ilvl it will be in 9.2) into my Set Helm

lastly the great vault can directly drop set pieces as well

so you’ll have chances for your raid, pvp and m+ vaults to contain an appropriate ilvl version of your Soulblade’s (Head/Chest etc)

they also do not drop as a token; there are 5 individual bosses that can drop set pieces (per slot) and will drop it for u directly

[livid ferry]

Is there a defined week in which we’ll gain the ability to convert gear into tier pieces?

With it being non token personal loot I can easily see people getting super unlucky if the conversion item is acquired too late

[rare ether]

it’s not my place to announce or confirm when things like double legendaries or the creation catalyst open (and especially not in a discord) but that info will be shared/posted abt when it’s ready

[livid ferry]

Yea understandable

[rare ether]

I just worked on a lot of these systems & am happy to reiterate stuff that’s out there in posts and interviews and stuff abt how they work

Tldr you can gain a full set without eve raiding, but the fastest way will be to get a mix of raiding and other vault content

[mellow urchin]

I think its a great way to make sure alts and ppl that dont raid a lot the chance to get easy set pieces. But the set not dropping in tokens will for sure get some backlash among the raiding community

[livid ferry]

^

[mellow urchin]

What if you are the only of x class in a raiding team, you have 2-3 chances per week (norm, hc) to get it

Sylv dagger ptsd

[mossy carbon]

I agree with push on tier set acquisition but the m+/pvp great vault will hopefully alleviate some things, and maybe it's something that can be looked at for next expansion depending on feedback/data.

[livid ferry]

Wait how is tier appearing in pvp and m+ row even supposed to work

For vault

[rare ether]

in a given week, you’d have each boss that drops tier on any difficulty (so 5 x your clearance difficulty), plus any/all vault slots - so you could say at your most tryhard, you have 9 additional chances per week to roll one. but again, unlike all of those systems before, once the Catalyst is available (the timing of which I know is important to get right), you’ll be able to convert the stuff you’re wearing into set pieces anyways - and all ilvl upgrades in the future that drop for that slot are also transformable

So unlike 9.1 where you’d get a high ilvl Headpiece and think ‘that’s my dom slot, I can’t take it’ - you’d just take it and zap it into your mythic ilvl set helm

[wind furnace]

i think it will be less of a issue for the top end given that i assume normal difficultly allows gear funneling (starting from week 1)

[livid ferry]

Are the 5 raid tier pieces just gonna be dropped into the m+ and pvp pool of items that can appear in your vault row?

[livid ferry]

I think 9.2 will see some of the most degenerate split raiding we’ve ever seen

[rare ether]

basically I feel like I understand the nervousness folks have about acquisition, but I also feel like you have more chances + a guaranteed way to get them

[mellow urchin]

This is extremely niche tho, perhaps 20 guilds if even that

[livid ferry]

But ye thats is also gonna happen regardless

Every patch split raiding degeneracy ramps

[wind furnace]

getting them from vault + catchup is def. a big improvement

[rare ether]

Basically this, your Set is just something that is a part of all of the tables

[livid ferry]

Interesting

[wind furnace]

tier drops are linked to the raid part of vault i assume?

[rare ether]

how do you mean?

[wind furnace]

sry *tier set drops

basically asking about the unlock conditions to get Tier set drops in your vault

[rare ether]

basically think of your set as something agnostic of all content; it just comes from a variety of locations, like an essence or a conduit almost. so doing raid boss X on normal could give you your set gloves at a specific ilvl, but your mythic dungeon vault could give you those same gloves at whatever ivll

[livid ferry]

So you can just get a 252* tier piece from vault even if you haven’t killed the boss on mythic?

[rare ether]

Yep

[livid ferry]

[wind furnace]

oh, so there is no condition to unlock it, its just in the loot pool, thats nice

[mellow urchin]

Bit confused about this, sorry. Can any set piece drop from any of the set piece bosses? And will the last 3 drop any set pieces or can you get 4/4 on first raiding week?

[rare ether]

Or if I’ve killed only 4 bosses on mythic, and boss 7 gives the set legs, my m+ vault could still contain set legs

Currently each Set dropping boss has its own Slot

I know which bosses they come from but I’m gonna hold off from saying just in case it would make anyone who employs me mad for whatever reason

[livid ferry]

[mellow urchin]

Ye thats fine, you draw the line

This is levels above anything we usually get no matter what, so its much appreciated regardless

[small cove]

yeah, much appreciation

[rare ether]

yeah I just woke up early and this + raid loot + where it drops is my literal job (compared to everyone who thinks I am a class designer lol) so I am happy to clear stuff up

Bc I do think it’s a much better system than we’ve ever had, or I don’t think my team and I would have been so excited to make it

[livid ferry]

I think if the raid drops were tokens that were shared between 3/4 classes it would be perfect

[mellow urchin]

Do those even exist anymore, class designers? By putting pieces together it seems like the entirety of a class is spread out on different teams instead.

[livid ferry]

But having this many modes of acquisition is nice

[rare ether]

Idk If it ever existed? There’s always a team that owns class balance and design in a general sense and experts on classes among those

[mossy carbon]

I think most people here are raiders but this system is absolutely fantastic for people who prefer not to dip into raiding much, and the catchup mechanic will help smooth any streaks of bad luck (it's great to see this being preempted)

[rare ether]

but it’s not like you’d hire a Death Knight Designer

[mellow urchin]

Ye it might be experts within the class design team that has come off as specific class designers

[rare ether]

What I’m excited for people to feel is how much easier it will be to alt raid or mainswap in terms of - once the catalyst is available you just need the currency (available from all content) to get your set at a baseline

and then from there you’d just be using the upgrade function to get better drops as you go

[mellow urchin]

Yea that sounds great tbh, and no new renown cap really takes away that grindy feeling

[rare ether]

it was definitely something I felt a lot that I wanted to raid on my rogue or other characters but didn’t have x y or z Yet and needed the stars to align

[livid ferry]

Is the currency infinitely grindable?

[rare ether]

And I made a new 9.1.5 char to test out the systems changes - and it was actually super fast to get all m conduits, shards, whatever - but characters from before ironically felt further behind (Alts from 9.0), so

[livid ferry]

Or is there a finite weekly amount you can get

[rare ether]

yeah there’s no cap, it’s just a ‘play the game’ currency in whatever way you like to play it

[livid ferry]

And no diminishing returns?

[rare ether]

Yeah

[livid ferry]

Great

[mellow urchin]

I remember raz doing 1500 arenas in a week in 8.3 to get echoes

[rare ether]

You could minmax the best ways to get it but you shouldn’t have to imo

[livid ferry]

I was concerned the catalyst would require some absurd amount that you grinded over like 2 weeks

And it’d be capped

So even though you have this conversion system it still would feel bad

But no cap no dr is very nice

[delicate osprey]

i might have done around 5000 arenas to get different sets

some people just like the game

and for alts it sounds awesome

[mellow urchin]

5000??

Ok

[delicate osprey]

of course not that fixed number but more than 2000

i did make a mastery set vers set crit set cdr+mastery etc

now the question is can we tiersetize items with tertiary and they keep them?

[rare ether]

I don’t actually know that

I know the sets have their own stats so

If you wanted to hyper hyper optimize

[delicate osprey]

i dont mind finding out yea but i guess if the item itself get popped it might be blank slate tierset always

[rare ether]

Each spec could decide the piece that has the worst secondaries for them and put a legendary in that slot

so you’d be 4/5 + leggo legs + belt or something

[delicate osprey]

yea thank the heavens dom sockets do not work it makes all of this way easier

[rare ether]

I’ll have to ask and how tertiaries are handled; I wanna say no but unsure

My gut says when you create or are dropped a set piece it’ll have stuff or it won’t and that’s what you have

[delicate osprey]

i mean it was just a though i can understand they would not work wont even be mad just something that appeared fast in my head

[rare ether]

Oh ya np I was just thinking out loud

[topaz merlin]

From an interview with Morgan Day (?) that I remember when converting to a set piece from a M+ piece as he described it tertiaries were not maintained or could proc. To prevent having to fish for a perfect item. He didn't mention the drops direct from raid rolling tertiaries.

https://ptr.wowhead.com/news/the-starting-zone-patch-9-2-interview-with-morgan-day-anduin-encounter-sepulcher-325004

He says no tertiaries on them in this interview at least.

[rare ether]

Yeah TY, I wanted to say Morgan had talked about that

[topaz merlin]

No worries. I remembered it and didn't want you to feel awkward about potentially leaking something.

[delicate osprey]

nice well at least we can have 9 tries every week

[topaz merlin]

• Just grinding it out once the forge thing comes online. If you're missing a 252 piece or something.

As an aside for Scarizard, are you able to confirm what happens for pieces which drop from last bosses with increased ilevel when crafting them? It isn't possible to even pull an item from the vault at that ilevel from M+ (eg. A 259 item from SoD) to use as the base.

If not can you poke whom ever will write the blue post on the system to include that case please.

The SoD example was just using current raid ilvls. No idea what the new one will be.

[rare ether]

so again, the set pieces exist sort of independent of content - and ilvl is determined by method of acquisition. so in this way, if the Jailer dropped a set Head at 259, that’s because it comes from him

This doesn’t mean when you transform a 252 head into a set piece that it would gain 6 or 7 ilvls

[topaz merlin]

Ahh okay. I misinterpreted what you said earlier. The latter is what I expected though. I'm good with raiders keeping that exclusivity on the +7 ilvl bump even if I don't get it.

[rare ether]

on the other hand, this means if the last three bosses drop say a 259 piece of non-set legs for instance, you could convert those into 259 set legs w/ cosmic flux

[livid ferry]

Interesting

[delicate osprey]

that seems juicy

[topaz merlin]

Oh that is interesting if stats work out in our favour.

Trade out less good stats for better ones but keep ilvl.

[rare ether]

iirc I have it so every armor type as at least one non-set piece from the final 3, so you could in a very optimized way

Choose the lowest ilvl 4/5 and wear the last high drop

Then eventually with an excess of currency

Transform that high drop into a set snd make your lowest ilvl into a legendary

I’m someone who personally enjoys very minute ilvl puzzles at the highest end so

in most cases it won’t matter

but it’s there for you

[topaz merlin]

Yeah. I like it as well. The idea of being able to optimise like that if you want for even the tiniest increments in performance is a good one in my opinion.

[rare ether]

queue the voices being like ‘my class doesn’t have as much stuff from the last 3, I cannot get CE’ tho lmao

I will say as I learned, for as long as the ilvl bump in raids has existed

I’m pretty sure 3 bosses is the most it’s ever been

And this might be the first to have 3/11 have it

[delicate osprey]

yes since WoD at most it has been 2

[livid ferry]

Think you’re right on that

[rare ether]

I wanted to do it bc it’s clean to say post Anduin is higher level

[livid ferry]

Oh really

[topaz merlin]

I think it also works well with it being the last raid.

[livid ferry]

Cool

Ye ye

Think that type of layout is interesting cause it sort of makes it so the bosses have to be tuned +/- similarly

[topaz merlin]

Totally random question likely not totally in your wheel house but do you know if theres an expected progression path through winged raids with how the team perceives boss difficulty? (No need to share it in Sepulcher's case I'm just curious about how wings are viewed internally).

Like for example the guild I did Nathria with found left into Huntsman -> Inerva was easier than right towards Council.

[rare ether]

I’m not an encounter designer but I’ll say it’s generally seen as true that a wing boss should be harder than non-wing bosses

[topaz merlin]

And I've always wondered if it was perceived that way internally as well and it was expected for guilds to find the left wing easier than the right.

[rare ether]

but I think the strength of something like Nathria or Sepulcher is

players can sort of decide for themselves which are harder or easier

[livid ferry]

Ye

[rare ether]

Bc on mythic Kaelthas was easier to do (and I’d say in general on heroic) but then Xymox was a huge blocker

[lunar fractal]

Seems like it might continue this way then? 🤔

[livid ferry]

I mean I assume halondrus and iirc lihuvim will be the most difficult pre anduin ye

[rare ether]

it’s funny tho bc the boss order I was sort of expecting players to choose for 9.2 doesn’t seem to be the way they’re gonna go, but again that’ll change w/ difficulty over time

[rare ether]

you’ll get tired of anyone saying this but it depends, right

[delicate osprey]

we aped the other way killed xy mox on 4 pulls then kael thas ez then procceed to wipe on inerva like 50 times

[lunar fractal]

I mean i'm just meme-ing

[rare ether]

I think sanctum makes sense as a big tower you scale that splits off - was seen as less linear but it’s also a Big Pillar

[lunar fractal]

Though I personally like the choice

[delicate osprey]

then went council and destroyed it

[rare ether]

but Nathria’s a big castle, so

makes more sense to let people explore it imo

[delicate osprey]

i like the first split of sanctum

[topaz merlin]

Yeah, I really like non linear raids.

[livid ferry]

Ye overall sepulcher visually is super cool lol

[rare ether]

I will say I expect zero sympathy from anyone on this but they are def harder to make from my side lol

[mellow urchin]

Always enjoy being able to choose boss as it plays into your strengths as a guild. Maybe we are better at dealing with certain mechanics and need gear for the other option etc. I know most top 20 guilds will prob look at loot primarily

[rare ether]

when placing loot you want generally like, a good flow of a variety of things coming from bosses as you go up - like oh I just missed a chest drop but in a few more it’s coming

[topaz merlin]

Being able to choose the different ways to go. Once we had Heroic Nathria on farm-ish (I couldn't commit to Mythic in 9.0) I would pick random members of the raid and force them to choose which wing we'd clear first while killing Shriek. It made each reset feel slightly different.

[rare ether]

In a world where you could go boss 1, 2, 6, 5, 3 or something, it’s a little harder to make all of those possible permutations feel good

It’s not a massive deal, it’s just something interesting I found when working on this vs studying how sanctum was

Bc you’d know anyone on 4/5/6 had always killed 1/2/3 in the same way

[rare ether]

we did this in Nathria bc our healers were our best players by far

So the moment we heard abt kaelthas we booked it

[mellow urchin]

Ye we had the exact same situation

[delicate osprey]

we had a bit of a situation with geometry

but council went splat

[mellow urchin]

We went remnant before soulrender this tier cus with week 1 gear you needed a lot of healers for soulrender and we try keep at max 4-5 in the roster. So 1 more week of gear made 5 healing soulrender much easier

Stuff like that is interesting from a raiding pov

[lunar fractal]

Though most of that stuff is only really a thing with semi-hardcore guilds

Most guilds won't have to deal with that 😛

[mellow urchin]

Well, its for everyone that steps into mythic early. Which is 100s of guilds

But i get your point

[rare ether]

I think It was weird that the middle 3 bosses in sanctum were hard to get to since you couldn’t do the KT skip and then go backwards but

as a designer I also like when there’s friction; which is an unpopular opinion

[potent vault]

Farming painsmith is pain

[mellow urchin]

We just open the gates to kt and full clear tbh, have been since day 1 of reclear so its not an issue for us at least

[rare ether]

I think if every raid was an open floor plan I could port around easily I wouldn’t like it as much, so even when that variety is somethings annoying I appreciate it long term

[mellow urchin]

Its in the name

[lunar fractal]

^ agreed

[potent vault]

That is true

[mellow urchin]

He even says it repeatedly in the fight

[delicate osprey]

we do tarra then guradian kt syl then full clear

[rare ether]

God I love that horrible man

[mellow urchin]

Its clear that ur meant to feel pain

[lunar fractal]

It took people so long to figure out their own hitbox in painsmith

[rare ether]

I remember seeing him internally when the fight wasn’t even done and I knew in my soul it would be a banger

[lunar fractal]

'did you get hit by balls again?' '....yes'

[potent vault]

Painsmith was an absolutely amazing fight

[rare ether]

But I like it when people suffer as long as it’s funny

[delicate osprey]

it is one of those monopoly bosses that makes you remember people

[lunar fractal]

The fight is cool af though

[potent vault]

Despite our ranged leaving a garden in that boss area

[rare ether]

if it’s annoying or feels like it’s lying to you that’s no bueno

[potent vault]

The enrage mechanic for painsmith is sick as fuck

[delicate osprey]

i mean it always was a skill issue when you died that was fine

just funny

[rare ether]

Legit saddest thing about getting better on that fight

[mellow urchin]

The panic

[lunar fractal]

I like all bosses that have an easy way to swapblaster kill people

[rare ether]

Is never seeing the enrage

[livid ferry]

^

[potent vault]

Seeing those spikes coming

As your killing the boss on prog

Was so cool

[livid ferry]

Enrages that aren’t just “boss beats you to death with melee” are awesome

[delicate osprey]

we had 3 boomkins we saw the enrage on each phase

[rare ether]

Second to killing Sludgefist post-wall slam

[delicate osprey]

always tight

[mellow urchin]

Idk i miss some of the old really tight enrage timers. Oldschool style

[delicate osprey]

my man sludge

[rare ether]

We also had our blood DK do they last 1% on guardian living though like 8 purging protocols

[topaz merlin]

I know you're not an encounter designer but if you would feed back that enrages like that are absolutely amazing then that would be wonderful. Sludgefist as well. Basically anything which isn't actually an enrage buff is great.

[rare ether]

Like 5 after we’d died lmao

[topaz merlin]

Inerva was also good with the tankers overflowing.

[rare ether]

Oh yeah dw I think they know

which is why I think they’ve made so many cool ones

[mellow urchin]

We had this but on soulrender, he is still the king of that boss.

[rare ether]

You can’t always do that but I also like ramping threat mechanics too

Where there’s no true enrage but theoretically Undoable

[mellow urchin]

When the entire room fills up with red shit

[lunar fractal]

The mechanical enrage

Fuck up more, tighter enrage

[topaz merlin]

Nerzhul also has it with ever increasing numbers of orbs.

[rare ether]

I think it just feels good to be like uhhhhh I guess kill boss

Killing Fatescribe with 99% on his rings cast

[topaz merlin]

Yeah. The best kills are when the only people left "alive" are the forgeborne reveries.

[mellow urchin]

Nerzhul and soulrender on mythic week 1 were amazing bosses. Its a shame they got quickly outscaled

[livid ferry]

This was our sylv kill

Necro zombies + mages in pod/block

[rare ether]

I’m sad ppl have a weird opinion of kelthuzad bc that fight is a banger imo

[mellow urchin]

Its the dps stops

[lunar fractal]

Oh I liked the 'enrage' in zekvoz from uldir

Where people just die after soaking the orb

AFter a while

[topaz merlin]

I'm guessing its because of the strange stops people felt forced to do.

[lunar fractal]

Until everyone is dead

[rare ether]

I will never forget our first kill of it with the ice covering literally everything as we send anyone targeted off into the abyss

[delicate osprey]

my man kel just needed a liiil more life

[mellow urchin]

No dps likes dps stops, because certain mechanics stops from happening below 2% hp

[livid ferry]

The initial design of that fight was pretty bad because it encouraged you to stop dps because it was the path of least resistance in killing him

[mellow urchin]

Yea that was the only problem tbh

[rare ether]

Yeah I agree w/ the stops and understand why, but I also mean so few players relatively speaking ever experienced that

[delicate osprey]

or making the inside phase harder the more time you were outside

[rare ether]

The moment to moment gameplay of that fight I loved a lot

[delicate osprey]

that would have been cool for the stop dps andy tactic

[livid ferry]

I do like phylactery though

[lunar fractal]

A little random sometimes

But it was alright

[rare ether]

and the last phase where it’s just him nuking people one by one is some chefs kiss shit imo

[mellow urchin]

Ye sadly the experience of few tend to influence the many. And there are certainly ppl that hate certain bosses and dont know why

[topaz merlin]

We see it with how people perceive the meta of stuff like M+ and raid. Once enough streamers and content creators go "this boss is bad" people immediately take that opinion upon themselves.

[delicate osprey]

i didnt mind kt

[livid ferry]

I am sure range dread it

[delicate osprey]

only boss that kinda irked me in a while was gorefiend

[topaz merlin]

And a lot of those streamers and content creators said it was bad because they were the ones having to stop dps.

[potent vault]

Meanwhile melee just laugh at em

[topaz merlin]

Even if 90% of people only did Heroic or saw Mythic after the changes were made to eliminate the need for stops.

[livid ferry]

Best shit ever

Seeing them run off as sacrifice

[mellow urchin]

You mean you dont feint soak it? Smh

[topaz merlin]

Last phase DPS burns with that sense of impending doom and dread like the floor filling are great.

[lunar fractal]

RL: 'next one dies'

aw shit

[livid ferry]

Not in last phase

They can suck it

[rare ether]

I am gonna make breakfast and chill before work so gl gamers. and don’t quote me in any wowhead articles or I’ll burn this discord to the ground (as in I’ll just leave)

[potent vault]

Seeing the moonkin sacrificed is always a blessing

[topaz merlin]

Legit told one of my raiders to go kill themselves in P3 KT once.

It was hilarious.

[delicate osprey]

thread is safe people dont even know it exists for the most part

[livid ferry]

Later man, thanks for answering our questions

[topaz merlin]

Because I wasn't being toxic.

[potent vault]

Ty for the info!

[mellow urchin]

We cant sadly control the wowhead fiends

[lunar fractal]

#noconnectiontowowhead

[delicate osprey]

just do a fast purge 200

let this moment live in our hearts

[mellow urchin]

Ye get whispyr on the job

[potent vault]

This channel is relatively hidden

Which is a good part

[topaz merlin]

Thanks for coming to hang out scarizard. Just having someone willing to engage like this is amazing.

[livid ferry]

Hidden

[lunar fractal]

don't you mean, enrage

[mellow urchin]

I can imagine wowhead starting to make articles about every comment will kill it

[lunar fractal]

INSIGHT SOURCES SAY THIS

[mellow urchin]

But both fuu and whispyr write for wowhead and can probably get them to stay away

[wind furnace]

don't worry ^^

I haven't seen wowhead quote from discord, the official forum/blue posts are the usual/trustworthy sources

[lunar fractal]

Scarizard not trustworthy confirmed

[wind furnace]

its more about the forums being the official communication line

[lunar fractal]

I know that's the joke

[plucky storm]

What is joke?

[lunar fractal]

Idk tbh

[left storm]

whats up with all the raid testing being done without double leggos?

[plucky storm]

double legos won't be out until after rwf

so I assume that's got something to do with it

[left storm]

ah ok I havent been paying attention to this PTR cycle as closely so I must have missed them announcing that

[plucky storm]

its unlocked through the questline and stuff

looks like 5-6 weeks in at minimum

from where things are on ptr

[left storm]

right on thanks man

[unkempt peak]

hmmm could be interesting especially if the raid is tuned tightly around everyone having double leggo

[plucky storm]

it's most likely tuned around people not having double lego and then double lego will naturally nerf the content for the slower guilds

[mellow urchin]

Kinda bad for us who are in the middle

[delicate osprey]

we kinda benefit of no double leggo ahaha

with our sucky 4% options

sub powa

[mellow urchin]

Ye but i mean, sucks for prog reasons

Tier will be too easy

[delicate osprey]

oh well not really if you know beforehand

that is why they wanted to be more conservative with tier power maybe

and only make it equalize not having shard seet

i hope last 3 bosses are really mechanic intensive

at least anduin and lord seem like it

[wind furnace]

The good thing about not starting with double legendary is that balancing decisions about legendary powers can be delayed, what should give more time to focus on other stuff

[lunar fractal]

I do hope what push said that the double legendary won't be such a significant power spike that bosses will become way easier

Imagine if all domination set bonuses would all be unlocked after 5 weeks

It would be a massive power spike then

[wind furnace]

the domination system was way stronger than 2nd legendary

and 9.2 starts with players losing a massive amount of damage from domination gems and sockets

[lunar fractal]

But it's balanced around that so besides numbers being smaller, that shouldn't matter

[wind furnace]

That is correct but domination also acted like a natural way to make content easier over time

tier set and legendary together probably are about the same impact as the domination system

it is hard for me to guess given tuning hasn't happened

[lunar fractal]

Exactly I agree. I'm just hoping it's tuned enough to where it doesn't have that big of an impact

[wind furnace]

Its not a bad thing that content gets easier over time, it gives more people the option to participate/clear it

[civic terrace]

Think its fine if theres a spike 5 weeks in tbh

Bit shards was only 2

All content was immediately turbonerfed on week 2

Essentially

[wind furnace]

domination had a lot of bad things to it

esp. the aquisation was flawed with the requirement of the shard and the right items to activate the socket

so while you could have good domination week 2, it was not guaranteed by any means

its healthy to separate the top end here that has multiple chars and funnels gear during that time as their access to gear is quite different

[mellow urchin]

and sod was way too easy

the same will happen if their nerf to the content is through double legendary

sure we only get 4-5%

but across the entire raid

prob like 8-10%

dps gained

which is huge

and will likely just trivialize content that was tuned around having 1

if the world first guilds can do it with 1, we are not THAT much worse that we are doing 10% less dmg overall

on top of getting more ilvl

[lunar fractal]

Honestly they just tune it around 2 legendaries, make the first few weeks hard so hardcore guilds have a big challenge but not impossible and after a weeks the other guilds can get through it too

[mellow urchin]

if they tune it around 2 legendaries and like heroic ilvl

how the fuck is world first guilds meant to beat it

they are not inhumane

[lunar fractal]

I guess there can be a balance between impossible and hard

Since Fuu also said that the increase of 2 legendaries is not that much

[mellow urchin]

for us

no

but we have the worst 2nd legendaries in the game

[topaz merlin]

Boomies get another 20% Lego...

[mellow urchin]

its kinda shortsighted to not consider the entire population of the game

it evens out to be a huge raid dps increase

even if some specs have shit ones

even outlaw/assa will have like 8-9%

fire mages and arcane mages get insane 2nd legendaries

boomies

[lunar fractal]

Why do boomies always get some big stuff in early raid times

[topaz merlin]

It also figures into burst windows as opposed to just overall right? If you need to burst in X amount of time. Boomies with frenzy and Fire Mages combusting doing like 15% more is gonna be much more impactful than an averaging it over the raid.

[mellow urchin]

i mean sure

but the dps we had in sod was way too high for the content

and i can see something similar happen

if the plan is to delay 2nd legendary

idk it kinda takes the fun out of the game because it just means prog for wr 20 to 200 guilds will have a way too easy raid

[wind furnace]

sod was a bit extreme

[mellow urchin]

idk

[topaz merlin]

It may be more up front work but ideally double legendary would appear in Mythic week?

[mellow urchin]

sets + shards is like, 15% more dmg across the board

double legendary isnt far off

[wind furnace]

domination impact is rly high and they also changed the set bonuses to scale with the gem level

so it ended up being a rly big dps gain for everyone

[topaz merlin]

It'd be hilarious for me to see the R2WF starting with the guilds speedrunning that weeks campaign chapter.

[wind furnace]

if everyone gets 15% dps for free, it ofc means that content is "too easy"

[mellow urchin]

thats what double legendary will be too

or similar

so ofc the new content will also be "too easy"

and dps checks wont exist

[wind furnace]

well there is a big diffrence between getting 5% dps from 2nd legendary and 3 times as much

[mellow urchin]

why are you looking at this

from a lonely sub rogue

thats not a raid

we are probably the only spec in the game that gets 5% from a 2nd legendary

[wind furnace]

because i don't assume that there won't be tuning

[mellow urchin]

so why are you making that into the standard lmao

oh so you think they will lower everyone to sub levels of power

[wind furnace]

and my thought process is that its usually easier to tune down outliners instead of bringing everyone up to high impact

[mellow urchin]

hey lets tune 40 legendaries to be 5%

instead of buffing the 3 sub legendaries to be 8-10%

[mellow urchin]

that always depends on quantity on either side no?

[wind furnace]

yes

[mellow urchin]

theres way more specs with good legendaries than bad

so why bring everyone down to bad

when you can bring a few up to good

that legit doesnt make sense

[wind furnace]

I have no data to support or deny on that, but you are correct 5% is potentially to low given most classes have at least one single 8% legendary

the amount of classes with >10 or even >15% impact however is fairly low

[livid ferry]

Fuu thinking there will be legendary tuning

[topaz merlin]

Isn't there a problem of not just the individual legendary power but also possible interactions between the normal and cov legendaries?

[livid ferry]

Thats a good one

[topaz merlin]

Which means that the combined effect may not merely be additive for some classes?

[livid ferry]

Little to no lege tuning will be done

Spoiler

[lunar fractal]

Probably gonna have to dust off the assa spec

[wind furnace]

there def. is the added complexity from interactions of the spec or other effects with the combinations.
So yes, but this is what balancing is supposed to solve

[mossy carbon]

I personally think this would be best, you can somehow justify this from a lore perspective or something and you actually get to do all of progression with double legendaries.

It seems to be a major feature of the patch, I understand the reasoning behind delaying unlocking it but I think it would be much more fun to be able to play with double legos, especially since it's a source of power that you actively interact with and can think about, not a proc that just gives you damage.

[livid ferry]

How do you know its a major feature of the patch

I dont even think it was planned to exist until late into them designing 9.2 lol

[topaz merlin]

I would like to share your optimism but one of the headline featured for 9.1.5 was talent tuning which they announced and it just never really happened. I hope that I am wrong.

[wind furnace]

double legendary seemed like a feature that was supposed to happen sooner or later.

i think talent tuning happened somewhat in pvp, but i am not actively integrated into that part of the community

[livid ferry]

Not at all

They never said it was definitively coming

They just said “maybe, maybe not”

It was always just a backup fun lever to pull

[mossy carbon]

I think most people had a pretty good idea when covenant legos came out

You're right it wasn't confirmed

[wind furnace]

you are correct in that they never confirmed it officially

[topaz merlin]

It was definitely expected to happen since it was how they did it in Legion. And it was one of the main PvE things that they announced in the 9.2 reveal or associated interviews.

Though if we take that video as standard the main feature of 9.2 is unique never before seen Nagrand-esque landscapes and water you can walk on.

[wind furnace]

just like they did only hint tier sets but we didn't know till they officially announced them

[south osprey]

9.2 is an emergency patch and most of the stuff is pretty recent and probably wasn't planned

[topaz merlin]

Didn't Ion confirm tier sets returning in an interview way back in 9.0? I think it was a Preach one.

[wind furnace]

people expected tier sets in 9.1 and not 9.2 tho, so there was always the chance that the dev team dropped the idea in 9.1

[topaz merlin]

Hard disagree. 9.2 to me seems like they smushed the plans for 9.2 and 9.3 in together and the only unplanned thing was the timescale in which it's all happening.

[wind furnace]

predictions/assumptions are always only chances.

E.g. after the dev interview that specifically mentioned rogue utility for raids, there was a assumption that we get smoke bomb or something similar back

[south osprey]

10.0 maybe

[wind furnace]

if that happened it would be somewhat expected, but hence they never officially confirmed any plans on that outside of one dev in a interview telling viewers that they look into it.

[topaz merlin]

Rogue definitely need some utility back. Whether a raid utility or just let us be the master soakers again.

[wind furnace]

also double legendary comes with restrictions, that make sense from a dev point of view but not from a players

[topaz merlin]

Let us do good damage and be the mechanic monkey.

[wind furnace]

the reason you can use covenant legendary pwoers just means that the scope of legendary powers to tune gets lower

[topaz merlin]

I wouldn't be against a 9.2.5 where they just said "Wear whatever legendaries you want. Go crazy for the last few months".

[wind furnace]

because you eliminate all combinations that could be broken outside of that

also it means that the covenant legendary basically becomes a passive/talent for the covenant

we probably hear after 9.2 release about 9.2.5 if that patch is planed

rumors point at a transition into a new xpac as soon as possible

[topaz merlin]

Wouldn't be surprised if we hear about a 10.0 announcement before 9.2.5

I don't mind the saccing of a 9.3 if we get an expac with more Dev time assigned and then we get something legion-esque in final quality.

[mossy carbon]

I wish they would get rid of class specific buffs, it feels awful for rogues to always be the easiest spot to drop, meanwhile you are absolutely required to bring a warrior, monk and demon hunter (and mage/warlock/priest).

Luckily raids haven't been as anti-melee as early BFA but still feels terrible.

[mellow urchin]

well the rumour has been that korthia was originally planned as a 9.0 extension of the maw

so thats 9.1 content basically just being cut and replaced by 9.0 stuff

except for the raid

and 9.3/9.2 stuff is just crammed into 1 patch from what it seems like

with anduin perhaps having his own raid originally (?)

[wind furnace]

it would make sense

[topaz merlin]

Anduin mechanically looks like an End Boss.

[mellow urchin]

so in reality, they made content for like 1.5 patches this expansion, you'd hope they have been working on 10.0

[wind furnace]

because the xpac basically lost 1 tier due to longer patch cycles

[topaz merlin]

With maybe one or two things missing.

[wind furnace]

what could mean that they pull a wod basically

[mellow urchin]

hopefully

wod being shit lead to legion being great

[wind furnace]

but on the other hand, it seems less likely

looking at how much they hired recently

wod with m+ would have been a decent/good xpac

the raids ended up being rly good

wod/legion in general had very good quality in raid design

[topaz merlin]

I want 12 dungeons at launch.

That would be BiS.

[wind furnace]

dungeon count just went down over the last xpacs

so i don't think that we will see a higher than usual number on dungeons

[mellow urchin]

quality over quantity

[wind furnace]

I think it needs to be a mix of both

Legion had short content cycles and more content while the quality of the content was good

[topaz merlin]

I am sick of the same 8 dungeons is all.

I find it difficult to get excited about any of them.

[wind furnace]

SL in contrast had long content cycles, i won't talk about quality as thats usually something that is done post xpac

[topaz merlin]

Even if 2 of the extra dungeons were shorter 3 boss ones. I think there's definitely a spot for sub 30 minute timers in M+

[livid ferry]

Sl dungeons just suck

Its not the quantity of them

They just suck

I can say a color and you’ll know what dungeon im talking about

[wind furnace]

i think SL/BfA dungeon design got a lot of impact from potential guidelines in the design process

[livid ferry]

Or dungeons

[wind furnace]

what dungeons and raids to a certain extend need is more freedom to experiment

[topaz merlin]

Yeah. But no so much it becomes Mother lode/HOA misery.

Pull 80% in the first 10 min then skip as much as you can after. Or be pigeon holed.

[wind furnace]

I think there is always a bad/good dungeon. Its just a consequence of having more options

[mellow urchin]

red

[livid ferry]

Sanguine halls

xd

[mellow urchin]

depths

but close

[topaz merlin]

I would like some more dungeons that at least have the illusion of dynacism like Waycrest (without the buggy walls and floors shenanigans)

[livid ferry]

I said both red dungeons