#9.2 Feedback and Discussion

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

mellow urchin
#

oh

wind furnace
#

they can hotfix stuff on ptr, but the bluepost mentions that it will come with the next build that is likely with reset?

livid ferry
winged fiber
#

wait

#

are they really fixing all of these

#

even making shadowblades not overwrite current blades????

wind furnace
#

seems so

mellow urchin
#

You sound surprised

winged fiber
#

god damn this is pog

delicate osprey
#

2-piece procs correctly add to an ongoing Shadow Blades, but casting Shadow Blades resets the bonus instead of adding them together

#

this one is quite big ye

winged fiber
#

i am suprised

#

lol

#

even akaaris

#

working

#

ohmgerd

#

it just gets better and better

#

might get nerfed

#

pls no

mellow urchin
#

Idk

#

Sub hasnt been insane in testing

winged fiber
#

yea

#

it doesn't seem nuts to me it does seem good

#

but not nuts

#

like every now and then you'll just rng up a bunch of shadowblades

#

but it's like

#

a +1k pull at most

#

not like you doing obscene dps

mellow urchin
#

Ah

#

Nah*

#

Fire, demo and arcane has been quite good for us

winged fiber
#

yea fire seems nuts

mellow urchin
#

And ofc venthyr boomie

#

Still

winged fiber
#

yea

#

i'm happy were tuned well so hopefully they don't nerf us

mellow urchin
#

But all these specs add insane 2nd legendaries

winged fiber
#

that's true

#

ours are

#

average at best

delicate osprey
#

yea we have a maybe 4% to 5% on aakari after some fixes in simc

winged fiber
#

akaaris is better at least with the changes

#

dude

delicate osprey
#

but other classes have a 10%+

#

on second leggo

winged fiber
#

the aoe on our 4 pc

#

can just rng out the ass sometimes though

#

on testing i think i spent

delicate osprey
#

what i didnt expect is they saying 4pc procs 2pc

#

that is sweet

winged fiber
#

5-7 finishers

#

in a row lol

#

was fucking bonkers

delicate osprey
#

they really want us to become the gamba spec

winged fiber
#

seriously

delicate osprey
#

after destroying outlaw

winged fiber
#

like it's SO rng

#

in aoe

#

it's insane

delicate osprey
#

this feels like SoO all over again

#

if you procced right you completely mooned

winged fiber
#

the 4 pc proccing 2 pc is hella pog

#

makes it so much better in aoe

livid ferry
#

the issue with nerfing sets this early is

#

you literally have half the picture

winged fiber
#

yea exactly

livid ferry
#

some specs sets still dont work as intended

delicate osprey
#

they dont want to nerf it yet i hope

winged fiber
#

1/4th of the picture

livid ferry
#

its just not a wise thing to do

winged fiber
#

lol

#

well they said they'd wait

delicate osprey
#

so will remain a bit sceptical

winged fiber
#

which is good

#

considering our 2nd leggo combination for most rogue specs is far behind

delicate osprey
#

the assa set change is kinda nucko tho

winged fiber
#

a lot of other secks

#

yea sin change is yuuge

#

soooo much better

mellow urchin
#

What i dont get is

delicate osprey
#

literal dumping all crit to haste/mastery/vers

mellow urchin
#

Is shiv gonna be aoe

winged fiber
#

yep

mellow urchin
#

Or how will this work

winged fiber
#

you cast shiv and all bleeds you have out guaranteed crit

delicate osprey
#

you get a buff most likely

winged fiber
#

for the duration

delicate osprey
#

for the 2p

winged fiber
#

it seems

mellow urchin
#

Imagine if it works with ttb

winged fiber
#

LOL

#

no way

mellow urchin
#

Nah

#

Its prob as hacha said

#

Just a self buff

delicate osprey
#

makes the most sense

#

unless they do some weird shit

#

idk the change to blades to not overwrite would be the first time they do that too

#

im kinda surprised

mellow urchin
#

Arent they doing the same with ret paladin set bonus

delicate osprey
#

the healer one? or the ret one with seraphim

mellow urchin
#

Seraphim

delicate osprey
#

the healer one is getting nerfed 100% for sure

#

yea they should do that

#

seraphim getting 2 or 4 secs while on wings is quite huge

#

and quite possible

wind furnace
#

ye legos are the big issue

#

even if the tier set is trong

delicate osprey
#

agreed but well it's already baked into the whole overall power of the spec i guess

#

like rogue in sanctum that had obe nerfed because it would be too much of an outlier

mellow urchin
#

I dont samt a 9.0 situation

#

Want

delicate osprey
#

even if the % increase was not as huge

#

yea that would be quite sad

wind furnace
#

nobody wants 9.0

winged fiber
#

yea fuck that

mellow urchin
#

Where they overnerf our legendaries

#

And the spec is trash

delicate osprey
#

now that people know how strong necro warr/nf pala etc are as melee

winged fiber
#

the whole class was trash

#

lol

delicate osprey
#

we might get raid cd LUL overtaken again

mellow urchin
#

Dk gonna be strong

#

I think

delicate osprey
#

with dh also being strong and dk seeming so powerful too

#

frost kyrian is

#

like

#

got a 20% buff

mellow urchin
#

That execute for unholy tho

delicate osprey
#

that too

mellow urchin
#

Possible rwf spec

delicate osprey
#

warrior and unholy have craaaazy execute with changes

mellow urchin
#

Just blast last phase

delicate osprey
#

glory warr has like 40% str or some crazy shit

#

and almost perma uptime on it

unkempt peak
#

hopefully we will see some legendary tuning before 9.2? maybe even some reworks if we are lucky? some of our legendaries dont need numerical tuning, they just have bad or subpar effects, especially when compared to classes that have legendaries that do 15% of their overall damage

livid ferry
#

would be nice but

#

hopeful

delicate osprey
#

quite likely they want the dust to settle a bit on the tier set before any changes

#

like they should

#

our overall power remains quite medium if they dont nerf the other non cov leggos right now

#

but aakari should get a bit of a leg up

#

we also found some interactions with blades not implemented on simc so that can make it also a bit higher

unkempt peak
#

makes me wonder if after the changes to Sin if they will just end up being the go to

wind furnace
#

not sure rly

#

sin set does not seem super powerful yet

livid ferry
#

sin sets power lies in the fact it interacts with dusk in a really strong way

unkempt peak
#

ahhhhh true, dusk is really good with there set, for some reason i was think Zold would have been giga for execute

mellow urchin
#

They have vendetta juiced bleeds for like 60% of the fight

#

If not more

#

Cus of the snapshot

livid ferry
#

dusk + obedience potentially very powerful

winged fiber
#

it also lines obedience up with every vendetta potentially

#

which juices set even more

#

but hard to say

#

lots of specs have good leggo combinations / tier sets

#

can't really see the whole picture rn

wind furnace
#

i try to use the other rogue specs as reference instead of other classes initially before tuning

winged fiber
#

fair

#

a ton of bosses had quite a bit of ads too

#

so the new 2 pc for sin gains lots of value in raid with ct

#

before the change sub looked waaaay better on these bosses

#

the shadowstep value is insane too

delicate osprey
#

nf power reset on adds

#

pog

#

toxic onslaught to the moon

winged fiber
#

what's the night fae reset?

#

oh wait

#

does sepsis still reduce cd

#

if an add dies with it

#

isn't that bad with the legendary though

#

cuz it says when sepsis expires on your target does that count if it dies?

unkempt peak
#

What leggos could we be looking at? Probably just Akaaris?

livid ferry
#

dust looks interesting for venthyr

#

Im assuming akaari will be good for kyrian

unkempt peak
#

Maybe even finality for Kyrian?

plucky storm
#

Akaari would be better after the fix

#

I find it difficult to believe that finality still wins

unkempt peak
#

Does dust also reduce the CD of shadow dances and symbols

livid ferry
#

Reduces every ability with a cd except vanish

unkempt peak
#

That's pretty neat

livid ferry
#

So ye you could have some rad blades uptime

unkempt peak
#

Vanish CD is two mins right?

livid ferry
#

ye

winged fiber
#

wait

#

that'd actually be nuts

#

you get blades every flag with dust

#

and the tier set

#

not to mention double symbols in a flag window

#

sounds fun af

livid ferry
#

dust also reduces flag so

#

flag would go to 45 and blades to 1:10 lol

winged fiber
#

oh true

#

even better, more flags

#

i mean flag would be so rng with the tier set regardless

#

rnging blades during the flag stack window

#

SHEEEESH

livid ferry
#

ye fuu did soem scuffed barebones 2+4pc +double lege sims

winged fiber
#

or the 4 pc procking

livid ferry
#

dust was top for venth

winged fiber
#

oh wow

#

HACHAS DREAM

#

man the 4 pc proc during flag stack with shb with dust

#

30 second flag cd MonkaSub

#

think of the opener

#

THE RAW BURST

tawdry tree
#

ye so many shadowblades you dont know what to do with em, and IF they make it so it doesn't remove the procs of the 2pc, that would be wild

#

like you have 2 procs rollin, and shadowblades come up, and you activate it, it would go to 30sec JAMcat

mellow urchin
#

They are fixing that

#

Was in the bugfix list

winged fiber
#

I’m prob the most hyped about that

#

Then akaaris + 4 pc proc 2 pc

delicate osprey
#

yea im kinda surprised they will fix the overlapping on blades

mellow urchin
#

the akaari fix is live on simc now

#

was like 50-60 dps

#

depending on covenant

#

the most interesting thing it did was make stiletto compete with lashing

delicate osprey
#

we always knew stiletto was bae with aakari now even more nice

#

the only sad thing is we are going full gamba

mellow urchin
#

fairies kinda good with akaari

#

i assume

livid ferry
#

Winning

wind furnace
#

finality seems to still win out

#

but its rly close on kyrian

winged fiber
#

holy shit

#

is this with changes?

mellow urchin
#

y

winged fiber
#

damn shadow dust is bussin

#

also wtf our leggos suck

mellow urchin
#

yep

#

which is why if the set gets nerfed

#

we're in trouble

winged fiber
#

BIG TROUBLE

mellow urchin
#

they could fix it

#

by making rotten last 3 seconds again

#

instead of 1 builder

wind furnace
#

i never understood the change to rottent bh

livid ferry
#

How is akaari<finality still

wind furnace
#

because both pieces will mean you use a lot of finisher

#

what gives finality a lot of power

livid ferry
#

Still seems strange lmao

mellow urchin
#

i think the reason is

#

that

#

dance uptime isnt much better

#

also the 50 sec blades sim is not perfect

#

and honestly it misses a lot of dance

#

the 2p gives you blades in dance

#

for the most part

wind furnace
#

its just a very vague estimate

mellow urchin
#

this 50 sec solution

#

is half the time just backstabbing

wind furnace
#

btw. i thought about what you suggested

#

making the 2p proc every 4th or 5th strike

#

it seems to me worse than the random proc even tho its more consistent

mellow urchin
#

yes

#

it is

#

and i dont want it

#

cus the 2p is honestly fine as it is

#

the issue is that we have 2 rng bonuses

#

1 is fine imo

wind furnace
#

okay, fair so we are on the same page there

mellow urchin
#

but not 2

delicate osprey
#

yea going full gamba gives me bad memories

#

of SoO and other raids

wind furnace
#

it reminds me of atbt

delicate osprey
#

or even bfa

wind furnace
#

when assassination parses consisted of getting good pb procs during execution

delicate osprey
#

getting crit kek

#

yea poison bomb was wild

wind furnace
#

subtlety in atbt also had impact from crit

delicate osprey
#

of course when a finisher did so much dmg crit was so trippy

#

same as bfa

#

if i had good crit rng dps could go up by like 40%

#

crazy expansions

#

i always think about SoO when we talk about gamba sets because it was so impactful getting a backstab converted into ambush

#

back when FW was serious business

#

and i had the worst luck back then too

wind furnace
#

you had the evi crit artifact trait in atbt

#

so you had a very high crit % on evi

#

(and dfa bc. it is also evi)

delicate osprey
#

you also had rng on the crucible traits

#

crazy tier

wind furnace
#

the top logs had some crazy shit when some of them had a 30% crit chance with the trait and had like 80% crit during the fight

#

I think FW was more impactful back then because we had less other higher influence abilities

delicate osprey
#

it was impactful because it was 100%

#

and almost everything was a hit

wind furnace
#

100% ?

delicate osprey
#

ye i think it was 100% arpen

wind furnace
#

oh wow

unknown.png
#

still not sure if it would be insane now

#

because a fairly big part of our damage is bleeds/magic

mellow urchin
#

isnt it 50/50

#

basically

wind furnace
#

very rough estimate is 50%

#

it probably is slightly more towards the physical part

delicate osprey
#

yea it was a different time

#

same as shadowblades was kinda big because it made autos not miss

#

in MoP

wind furnace
#

"your aas don't miss for 20 secs" does not sound very exciting

delicate osprey
#

they also do extra shadow damage pog

civic terrace
wind furnace
#

it always depends on how much damage auto attacks contribute to your overall

civic terrace
#

I think it was a fair bit, but I'd be lying if I were to say I'm sure

wind furnace
#

aa are somewhere around 10%-13% of our damage now

#

with a around 20% miss rate.

#

so making it 0% means you get this amount in addition on top of your baseline

#

what means you get ~2% dps from that part

delicate osprey
#

hope to see more changes tomorrow

wind furnace
#

the mentioned change in the bluepost hopefully

#

but this basically means the 2 things that seem to be deliberately left out from the 4p proc are symbols and premedtiation

#

it kind of makes sense esp. for premed

mellow urchin
#

@wind furnace is there a way to change the test implementation of the tier set 2p

#

to be about shadowblades having lower CD instead of longer duration

wind furnace
#

sure

mellow urchin
#

and make it match about

delicate osprey
#

that seems interesting

mellow urchin
#

50-55%

#

uptime

#

cus with 50 seconds straight

wind furnace
#

i can try, giveme a sec

mellow urchin
#

its gonna be weird

delicate osprey
#

making it around 40 secs cd or so?

wind furnace
#

what cd would that be tho

delicate osprey
#

would bork stiletto unless you compensated on that one

wind furnace
#

i could use PV instead of stiletto on venthyr

mellow urchin
#

the cd would be uhh

#

40 seconds?

#

if you remove stiletto

#

and 1 minute if you have stiletto?

#

not sure

delicate osprey
#

for stiletto it would be 2 mins 30 secs or so

mellow urchin
#

well

#

you have to consider

#

that you will have less time

#

to do AAs

delicate osprey
#

yea that too

#

hmm

#

1 min then yea on that min you can get around 20 sht procs

mellow urchin
#

ye

#

and you want 40 sec cd i think

#

20/40

#

would be 50% uptime or?

wind furnace
#

lets see

mellow urchin
#

35% uptime

#

is it holding blades?

#

for something

wind furnace
#

for symbols

#

could remove it to not sync with symbols

mellow urchin
#

think you have to remove that

#

sync

wind furnace
#

ye should be no problem

#

just fire on cd

#

pew pew, one sec

livid ferry
#

Prob gonna be jank

#

Also 40 sec cd should be ~50% uptime ye

mellow urchin
#

i think its semi-scuffed if you dont play stiletto tho

#

cus that means you get double benefit

#

basically stiletto benefit AND pv

#

which is very strong

wind furnace
#

sry, not sure i grasp what you mean

mellow urchin
#

well the estimated 50% blades uptime is with stiletto equipped

wind furnace
#

oh

mellow urchin
#

if you make the bot reach 50% uptime without stiletto equipped

#

its getting both PV and stiletto

#

effectively

wind furnace
#

ye

#

probably should put in stiletto again then

mellow urchin
#

ye and increase the cd by about 20 sec

#

i think

#

so 1 min instead

wind furnace
#

this is with 40 secs

#

giveme a sec

#

1 min means

#

to much uptime still

unknown.png
mellow urchin
#

Jesus

#

yea

#

maybe 1:20?

wind furnace
#

ill try 1:40

mellow urchin
#

alright

wind furnace
#

and then rather go down

#

1:20 might be good then.. well

livid ferry
#

Ye try 1:20

wind furnace
#

close

#

i can try fine tune

livid ferry
#

1:10 might be the sweet spot

#

Will probably be 56ish then

#

Actually maybe too high at like 59ish

mellow urchin
#

1:15

wind furnace
#

ye

#

thats with 1:15

livid ferry
#

1:15 should be the sweet spot ye

#

Oh what

wind furnace
livid ferry
#

Ye something broke

wind furnace
#

FINE TUNE

mellow urchin
#

how did it lose uptime

wind furnace
#

wait

livid ferry
#

Something broke in the sim lol

wind furnace
#

i mean 1:25

livid ferry
#

Oh ye thats too low

mellow urchin
#

1:15

livid ferry
#

Go 1:15

wind furnace
#

that would be over 50%

livid ferry
#

Should be close to average reality

#

Well ye

wind furnace
#

we aim at 55%?

#

or what

mellow urchin
#

yea

wind furnace
#

ohh

livid ferry
#

In reality its about 50-55%

wind furnace
#

i thought 50% my bad

mellow urchin
#

50-55%

#

i mean its somewhere around there

livid ferry
#

It ranges anywhere between like 45ish- low 60s

wind furnace
#

to much

#

😛

livid ferry
#

Ye

wind furnace
#

giveme some tries, ill do one at 50 and one at 55 okay?

livid ferry
#

Ye sure

#

1:20 is probably honestly fine

wind furnace
livid ferry
#

Im just curious if this does anything double legendary wise because on ptr we don’t have 2x lege but i’ve tested akaari individually and it seems powerful

wind furnace
#

i did some sims on double recently

livid ferry
#

I assume its just bcuz of the rudimentary implementation of the effects

wind furnace
#

^ follow the link

livid ferry
#

Since we dont have proper imolementation yet

#

Yea ik

#

Thats the results im talking about

wind furnace
livid ferry
#

Cant wrap my head around finality>akaari when in my testing akaari has performed really well

delicate osprey
#

yea lord dust is surprisingly good

livid ferry
#

Even better than RC alone

delicate osprey
#

did we get the fix of shadowblades affecting aakari?

livid ferry
#

Ye

delicate osprey
#

pog

mellow urchin
#

instead of blades duration

wind furnace
#

50%: 12782 dps
55%: 12941 dps

#

yes

mellow urchin
#

can you then use that 55%-er

#

and do the double legendary sim

#

again

wind furnace
#

sure

livid ferry
#

Ty

mellow urchin
#

i wanna see if it does anything to shadowdust/akaari

livid ferry
#

I just don’t believe finality benefits so much from rc + 4 pc that it actually wins over akaari

wind furnace
#

will take a bit to run

#

rotten stonk

#

peepostudy when the best legenadary combination is about 4% dps increase

mellow urchin
#

i guess akaari just isnt that strong

wind furnace
#

its within .4%

#

also keep in mind you might can benefit a lot from gear changes

#

e.g. less mastery

#

or vice versa, get in more if its worth it

mellow urchin
#

i have to test shadowdust on ptr

#

and see if the blades uptime etc is similar to what these sims are doing

wind furnace
#

we probably get a implementation soon

#

when they fixed stuff

livid ferry
#

Still gonna wait for proper implementation to make judgements on akaari

mellow urchin
#

fixed what

livid ferry
#

Bugs

wind furnace
#

^ this

unknown.png
mellow urchin
#

are we waiting for that

wind furnace
#

yes

mellow urchin
#

its coming in like

livid ferry
#

Why, isn’t it confirmed to be happening

wind furnace
#

today probably

mellow urchin
#

a month

livid ferry
#

And its coming in 2022

mellow urchin
#

ye

wind furnace
#

huh?

mellow urchin
#

lmao

#

it was postponed

wind furnace
#

what

livid ferry
#

This was the last ptr build

#

Of 2021

#

No more ptr stuff

wind furnace
#

O.O

mellow urchin
#

and they cant bugfix this in a hotfix

wind furnace
#

i did miss that

livid ferry
#

And our bug fixes didn’t make the deadline

wind furnace
#

can you link me the post

livid ferry
#

So they’re coming january

#

He talked about it in here

#

Wowgen

#

Mr scarizard

wind furnace
#

who the wow dev?

mellow urchin
wind furnace
#

ah

livid ferry
#

So ye idk if its worth waiting

#

When its acknowledged all that is being fixed

mellow urchin
#

i mean the things on that list should be implemented

wind furnace
#

ye

mellow urchin
#

so why not just implement the set working with all that

wind furnace
#

i think koji expected a new build

#

so

#

he did talk about it in one of the spec channels some days ago

livid ferry
#

Ye hopefully we get ours soon i wanna see proper sims with it since its quite hard to imitate

wind furnace
#

might be worth inplemention with the assumption that everything works as promoted then

mellow urchin
livid ferry
#

Yea 100%

#

When its been acknowledged that all of this stuff is bugs

#

You implement with assumption they will be fixed

livid ferry
mellow urchin
#

i mean that would mean

#

shadowdust is actually legit

#

well ofc, they would have to fix the prepull :))

livid ferry
#

I mean it is very legit if you think a out it

mellow urchin
#

yea i know why its good

#

but i just thought it might overvalue the cddr

#

cus of 50 sec sims

#

blades*

#

but turns out its similar ish

livid ferry
#

Yea tbh you could have a pretty nasty opener if you get good rng lol

mellow urchin
#

its a shame we dont have double legendary tho, cus its value is way worse on ptr cus of

livid ferry
#

Like really really nasty

mellow urchin
#

obedience missing

wind furnace
livid ferry
#

Ye

#

Thats the issue of dust

mellow urchin
#

dust is more appealing to me

#

idk why

wind furnace
#

better damage profile

mellow urchin
#

ye its just more flags

livid ferry
#

If you get decent rng with obedience dust you can have like a

mellow urchin
#

40-45 sec cd on the first flag

#

or less

livid ferry
#

1 min + opener shadow blades

mellow urchin
#

if you have insane rng you could actually have it up with the 30 second symbols

wind furnace
#

hmm

livid ferry
mellow urchin
#

what

livid ferry
#

Its p sick feeling

mellow urchin
#

on aoe?

#

is that even possible st

livid ferry
#

No in st

wind furnace
#

i think dust is appealing because you have shorter burst intervals

#

kind of reminds me of dfa

livid ferry
#

Oh

#

You mesnt flag

#

I thought you meant blades

mellow urchin
#

nah flag

livid ferry
#

Ye you’d have to get some banger 4 pc procs

#

But if you slot machine with obedience dust you can unironically have like over min long shadow blades in opener

mellow urchin
#

ye

#

and also almost full uptime on the vers+haste

#

from flag

#

first minute

#

24-25 into a gap of like 10-15 seconds

#

and then it lasts until 1 min is over

livid ferry
#

Ye

#

Since you’ll have blades up again at like 1 min

#

And it’ll add on duration

#

Could be funny

mellow urchin
#

its gonna be up very early

#

cus you get 30% haste

#

for a very long time

livid ferry
#

Ye

mellow urchin
#

which means more cdr too

#

on blades

livid ferry
#

Staccato

wind furnace
#

stiletto stonk ^^

livid ferry
#

Oh yea and were just gonna have higher rank as is

wind furnace
#

tbh conduits might be fun in 9.2

livid ferry
#

So interval itself is just shorter

#

Lmao

wind furnace
#

because pv could be good, stiletto, PE maybe?

mellow urchin
#

shadowdust has some major implications on gameplay

livid ferry
#

Meh PE is yucky

#

But

wind furnace
#

pe with dust might not be that bad

livid ferry
#

It might be better than pv for venthyr

wind furnace
#

ye

livid ferry
#

Pretty decent change thats what happens actually

mellow urchin
#

wdym

#

you are locked

#

in conduits

#

as venthyr

#

yall smoking crack

livid ferry
#

Oh ye theres lashing as well

mellow urchin
#

lash-stiletto-DD

#

theres no option

livid ferry
#

I always forget lashing

mellow urchin
#

DD is also getting major stonks from the shadowblades uptime

livid ferry
#

Ye

wind furnace
#

i did not think of stiletto as a "slotted in" thing

livid ferry
#

You play stiletto 100% of the time with this set

#

DD and stiletto are basically cemented in

wind furnace
#

stiletto is the one i am unsure about

#

because you kind of get shb uptime from 2p

livid ferry
#

????

wind furnace
#

well

livid ferry
#

Stiletto is 100% lock in

#

The power of the set isn’t the rando procs its getting uber long blades built off your main cast

wind furnace
#

my thought on this is still based on the old extend behaviour

livid ferry
#

You can have minute long blades if you get good rng

#

The random procs are nice for some dam and cp but the real power is the normal casts

#

You can get some lucker procs and get a random 10-15 sec blades

mellow urchin
#

shadowdust uptimes

#

7 finishers on avg in flag Seemsgood

livid ferry
#

Yep

#

62%

wind furnace
#

wonder if the 4 cp finish during flag

#

still holds

#

given 4p/2p

livid ferry
#

I was thinking about that too

#

I was thinking if it might be worth to finish on 4 in blades regardless, to counteract cp waste

#

But i doubt it

mellow urchin
#

the cp waste on this shit

wind furnace
#

does not seem to bad

livid ferry
#

Casual 69

#

76 ig

wind furnace
#

probably will need to look into it when its implemented

mellow urchin
#

backstab might be the lag

#

tbh

livid ferry
#

Ye

mellow urchin
#

sometimes the 200 ms makes me cast 2 builders in a row

#

i also wonder how you use shadowdust

#

with this

#

like do you just vanish first gcd in dance

wind furnace
#

wonder if there are optimizations

mellow urchin
#

in opener

livid ferry
#

76 cp wasted is almost 2 dances worth of cdr gone

mellow urchin
#

and i still had 55% dance uptime

#

as venthyr

wind furnace
#

sounds balanced

#

tbh

#

our tier set looks rly strong

mellow urchin
#

fuu

wind furnace
#

but our legendary win

#

is shit

mellow urchin
#

there is no implementation on shadowdust

#

is there

wind furnace
#

huh?

mellow urchin
#

just briefly looked at the apl

#

its vanishing 10 seconds in?

#

you are wasting sooo much symbols and dance cdr

#

by doing that

livid ferry
#

Wdym

wind furnace
#

potentially needs optimizations ye

#

esp. for combinations

mellow urchin
#

it looks like its just

#

using vanish like regular APL

#

to me

#

= between dances

wind furnace
#

it probably is

livid ferry
#

Vanish at 10 is no symbols cd wasted

wind furnace
#

need to check apl

mellow urchin
#

i guess its just vanish cd

livid ferry
#

Ye

mellow urchin
#

as long as you dont vanish when symbols is sub 20 sec

#

remaining

livid ferry
#

Ye

mellow urchin
#

or dance

#

its fine

#

i guess

wind furnace
#

if you think you have optimizations

#

pls lmk

#

i had no time to look at double legos yet

livid ferry
#

I mean i remember i was suspicious of dust being better than it might sim

#

Robot plays it fairly right i think

#

Alone

#

Idk about double

wind furnace
#

btw. its somewhat ironic

#

that we talked about how advanced the build is just some days ago

#

and now get a "no new build for a while" message

livid ferry
#

Well ye holidays coming up for them

#

We have a thick build coming in 2022 tho

#

All our fixed + outlaw and sin reworks

#

I am hoping it brings double lege as well

#

That still being absent is uh

#

Not very good for the balance of the patch KEKW

#

Especially with heroic testing getting finished up this thurs and friday, unless they choose to test 2nd half of raid as well

mellow urchin
#

there will be mythic testing ofc

livid ferry
#

Ye

#

Did you see how hard arms set got blasted btw

mellow urchin
#

yea

#

kinda scary

#

idk how strong it was

livid ferry
#

Yea lmao

#

Apprently they had rlly high uptime in the 20% str

#

But ye kinda monkaS

#

Arms does have a powerful double lege though so

#

Maybe it was warranted

mellow urchin
#

did google get nuked or something

#

my internet works but browser just shat itself

livid ferry
#

Nah

#

Works for me

grave peak
#

arms tier set was like giga broken

wind furnace
#

maybe someone is attacking cloudflare again

grave peak
#

was like 26% combined or something, now its 13%

livid ferry
#

Hm

grave peak
#

so it just wasnt tuned at all yet basically

livid ferry
#

Ye the ret pala in my guild was saying its crazy bonkers

grave peak
#

they do have good 2 legendaries i think tho

livid ferry
#

Ye their 2 lege rn add to 13% total

wind furnace
#

sub set is in the reach of "too strong"

livid ferry
#

Nf and enduring

livid ferry
grave peak
#

strong tier but shit legendaries = balanced pls no nerf blizzard

livid ferry
#

Our tier with bug fixed wil probably need some adjustment tho

wind furnace
#

we are probably more in the region of 20%+

livid ferry
#

Well I mean

#

Total with everything

#

Set + double lege

wind furnace
#

if its 10% it means its double the budget

#

i talk about set alone

#

the issue rogue in general has is that legos are not op/broken

livid ferry
#

Set budget cant just be a static number unless they plan on doing actual tuning on other areas lol

wind furnace
#

so you end up having like 4% gain from "double legendary" max

livid ferry
#

Thats just fundamentally not right

#

Ye thats what im saying

wind furnace
#

while other classes currently have 10%+ from double legendary a

livid ferry
#

Yes

#

That is bad

wind furnace
#

and 20% from tier

livid ferry
#

Unless they wanna make some sweeping lege buffs

wind furnace
#

but i tent to not use the most broken class/spec as a example for such comparisons

livid ferry
#

Set budget shouldn’t just be a static goal across all specs

mellow urchin
#

its not about taking a specific class as an example

delicate osprey
#

arms warrior set got slapped

livid ferry
#

Just like lege budget isn’t static for all

delicate osprey
#

for example to get more in the range of 10%-15%

mellow urchin
#

imagine if the total allowed BP from 9.2 is 30%

#

subs set would have to be 25% ish

#

to meet that

#

meanwhile arms set, might have to be 13-14%

wind furnace
#

^

mellow urchin
#

thats basically

#

what we're saying ye?

#

so sub having a big set legit doesnt matter if the 2nd legendary is bad

livid ferry
#

Thats waht im saying yes

mellow urchin
#

cus the total dps gained is within the allowed limits

wind furnace
#

but tbh

#

i would prefere a less fractured distribution

delicate osprey
#

ye same thing happened with conduits and also why they nerfed obe they kinda have a total % of power then mix and max

livid ferry
wind furnace
#

so that you could at any class have a rough idea what damage one system does

livid ferry
#

Its too far gone

wind furnace
#

like... is it fine for balance to have 25% legendary?

#

if so, why

#

what other system ws buchered, or is the baseline to bad?

livid ferry
#

Its too far gone as I said, there would have to be some rather large balancing changes to readjust everything to gain symmetrical amounts on every spec

#

Its just unrealistic to expect it

wind furnace
#

i am unsure about it

#

it was very well done cross 3 specs on subtlety

livid ferry
#

Yes because it was done like that from the start

#

We are going into 9.2

#

Where sets are already designed

#

Double lege is coming soon

wind furnace
#

and successively broken to not be as well balanced over time

livid ferry
#

Trying to rebalance specs leges and cov abilities at this point is just too late

wind furnace
#

yes, but why not put the effort in initially

#

it seems rather counter intuitive to me

mossy carbon
#

Unless you are doing splits, you are also presumably going to run into issues with actually getting your tier in first month(?) which makes it feel worse than specs with less power attached to their tier, making sub worse on progress unless you're lucky

livid ferry
#

Some classes will have busted sets some will have busted leges

wind furnace
#

because what it ended up doing is having some huge outliners

#

like DK in the first raid

#

or balance

#

and while outliners are good for the health of a game

mellow urchin
#

with so much of our dps tied to the set

livid ferry
#

Ye

wind furnace
#

the outliners wow provides are extremes

grave peak
#

i wanna see how tier from m+ and pvp works

wind furnace
#

like. if legendary balance was somewhat given

livid ferry
#

I actually made that same point about daggers

#

And as I thought, 12 weeks into farm ppl still dont have 2

wind furnace
#

9.2 would just come down to fine tune tier sets and see if there is a broken interaction that needs to be adjusted

livid ferry
#

Some probably not even 1

wind furnace
#

with blizz not facilitating this, they end up with a "broken everywhere" system with devs having to many things to look at

#

what means a lot more effort

wind furnace
#

like the initial assumption was that they provide a insane power gain

livid ferry
#

But yea idk why people are so eager to nerf things into a “budget”

#

When the whole picture isn’t seen yet

wind furnace
#

and not having weapon tokens, did make it obviouse that you will have huge impact of luck

wind furnace
livid ferry
#

Our set

#

Is what im talking about

wind furnace
#

nobody wants it to get nerfed

#

we just discuss that its technically over the power budget

livid ferry
#

People are saying like its some necessary truth of life

wind furnace
#

who?

livid ferry
#

Whispyr for example

#

Says its basically set in stone the set will be nerfed and needs to be nerfed

#

Which by the way

#

Im not even necessarily opposed to if the proper counter balance is done in the area of legendaries

#

But i dont think thats a reality we’ll be seeing lmao

wind furnace
#

i mean he is in contact to one blizz dev

#

and we don't rly have a idea of the general view on systems inside of blizz

livid ferry
#

I think the general view is what i describe

#

They dont care what system gives what %

#

It all depends on the grand sum output a spec brings

#

Fire Mage has a 26% legendary

wind furnace
#

i can only talk about what i know when i had more direct contact

livid ferry
#

sub rogue could wear 5 of its legendaries and not have that amount of power from legendaries alone

wind furnace
#

and back then having systems in certain % areas was a design goal

livid ferry
#

If they actually think they are accomplishing that equally throughout all specs, they are the most delusional people on the planet

wind furnace
#

its super hard to say what happens internal

livid ferry
#

The % gains across every system is drastically different

wind furnace
#

because well... we are just observers mostly

#

this is personal opinion, but it seemed that the incentive was to put every legendary in about a similar power budget

#

and have all system tuned somewhat equally

#

then balance around changing baseline or other things to bring classes closer

#

to be entire clear, this is the impression i had

livid ferry
#

I think if they truly have some budgets, they most likely vary from spec to spec lol

#

Idk how else to explain it otherwise

wind furnace
#

it does not mean anyone told me it, not that it was how they anticipated this

#

i know that when some devs looked at the herodamage charts

#

and saw rly bad outliners for certain spec azerite

#

it seemed like it was a surprise

livid ferry
#

They seriously lack internal testing then xd

#

Or are completely unaware of spec interactions

wind furnace
#

again, in no way represent anything they do internally or similar

#

because i have no idea how they work internal

livid ferry
#

Ik

#

Im just saying the whole idea they all try to stay within borrowed power budgets seems hilarious to me

wind furnace
#

what i think is that its healthy to cooperate with the simc devs of the specific spec to help control certain areas

livid ferry
#

Because its just historically wrong over and over again

wind furnace
#

and this is done iirc for some classes

#

just not public

#

for me personal, balance is about bringing things in line to don't punish anyone for not playing whats broken

#

while allowing specs to shine in certain situations

#

so that you don't have "bring this class as much as possible" but rather can fine tune to your needs

livid ferry
#

That is the perfect reality yes

wind furnace
#

for rogue, we are actually even in the danger zone output wise this patch

#

but luckily other classes exist that steal the show to a degree it rly becomes irrelevant

livid ferry
#

I think this patch had some of the best tuning in awhile

delicate osprey
#

rogue is really in danger zone for a while

livid ferry
#

Not even because all 3 rogue specs were good

delicate osprey
#

we kinda got bailed by daggers

livid ferry
#

But most specs were competitive

wind furnace
#

the patch did one thing well

livid ferry
#

And had their niches

wind furnace
#

make tuning less relevant because you add a static damage value to everyone

#

and also have random stuff impact your dps

livid ferry
#

And the raid also provided situations for many niches to shine

wind furnace
#

(domination system, sylvanas dagger)

#

e.g. if you have a 10% diffrence between 2 specs

#

it becomes lower if you add a equivalent of 30% of the higher spec on damage to both

delicate osprey
#

yea frost set and blood set saved the day

wind furnace
#

suddenly you only have a ~7,5% diffrence

delicate osprey
#

unholy was kinda trippy for many classes

#

as boring as they were

livid ferry
#

Unholy is chill

wind furnace
#

frost did rly boost sin/outlaw

delicate osprey
#

yea unholy is chill for rogue but for many others it was oof

livid ferry
#

Why

wind furnace
#

what in turns also means that those lose more in 92

delicate osprey
#

they needed the boost of frost or blood

livid ferry
#

Ye specs going into 9.2 weaker than end of 9.1 is kinda clowny

wind furnace
#

you ask why sin/outlaw benefit more from frost?

#

or what is the why for

livid ferry
#

Was to hacha

#

Ik why they benefit more kekg

wind furnace
#

ah okay

delicate osprey
#

its not that they benefit more from unholy it was the other way around the buff to frost and blood made those better alternatives that were less swingy

livid ferry
#

But ye its why i fear for 9.2 balance

delicate osprey
#

yes losing 15% of damage boom

livid ferry
#

Knee jerk tuning either way without seeing full picture is recipe for disaster

delicate osprey
#

tbh i really didnt think 2 leggos would ever be a thing

livid ferry
#

Same

delicate osprey
#

some specs are going to be so kinky

livid ferry
#

I was hoping it wouldn’t become one

wind furnace
#

+1 hacha

delicate osprey
#

and other covs so unreliable

#

but also kinda funny

wind furnace
#

but this is not actually double legendary

livid ferry
#

I think they themselves weren’t anticipating double lege

delicate osprey
#

i mean for most classes the cov one was not terrible

wind furnace
#

they did limit it big time by having the covenant one locked in

livid ferry
#

And the fact they’re making it cov+1 is evidence of that

delicate osprey
#

the only thing it did was kill some covs but still really strong

wind furnace
#

there are a lot of interaction between non covenant that would be insane

livid ferry
#

They’re obviously trying to limit the absurdity of lege combos

wind furnace
#

that just don't exist now

delicate osprey
#

it kinda does

livid ferry
#

I think double lege wasn’t planned, just kept in the pocket in case they needed to fire off the “fun patch”

delicate osprey
#

venth pala

#

to name one thing that wont be ok

#

unless nerfed by like 50%

#

then they go kyrian or nf and still ok/op

livid ferry
#

Necro

delicate osprey
#

i was expecting something like netherlight crucible

#

i mean i expect the tier set to get ravaged too

wind furnace
#

i mean i don't want to say double lego in this way can't be op

#

it certainly can

#

but its a very controlled enviroment

delicate osprey
#

also tank balance just went out the window

wind furnace
#

thats easy to tune

livid ferry
#

It was going to be if venthyr boomkin wasn’t nerfed pepelaff

delicate osprey
#

way easier but still really unexpected

wind furnace
#

hoing for the kyrian druids in 92 to tank

livid ferry
#

Praying moonkins are banished to play some necrolord or kyrian shit in 9.2

#

Punishment for 9.1

potent vault
#

And is now insane

livid ferry
#

Its okay

wind furnace
#

i wouldn't even mind

livid ferry
#

The damage profile will be flat as shit

#

Not nuclear reactor like rn

potent vault
#

Get ready for your cancel necrotic swarm macro

wind furnace
#

necro is like the most unimpactful one gameplay wise

livid ferry
#

Boomkin fillls its own niche rn lmao

#

Not healthy

wind furnace
#

so its fine

#

boomkin is straight up broken

#

its funny how this sustains for so long

potent vault
#

Just wait for the hidden tech

wind furnace
#

at least players of the spec have fun

potent vault
#

Of nf moonkin with 18 AP star surges

wind furnace
#

XD

mellow urchin
#

venthyr boomkin is not straight fire

#

gameplay

potent vault
#

Our moonkins Miss fae

wind furnace
#

its the most popular spec in the game rn

mellow urchin
#

cus its good

#

not because its fun

livid ferry
#

Cuz its broken as shit

wind furnace
#

yes but being good equals fun for many

livid ferry
#

Everyone had a fire mage alt in nyalotha too

#

Or a bm hunter

mellow urchin
#

our 2 moonkins werent even a little upset

#

about the nerf

#

having venthyr be that strong basically handicaps any choice

#

and fucking up a ravenous frenzy window is possibly the worst feeling in the game atm

wind furnace
#

yes

#

but the nerf did not change the position the spec is in

livid ferry
#

Wdym

mellow urchin
#

ofc it did

livid ferry
#

It definitely did

wind furnace
#

boonkin did not become useless or mediocre

mellow urchin
#

dps wise they will be fine

#

but playing around their 3 min burst

#

is gone

#

and that dmg profile

#

is gone

#

it changes the position of the spec

wind furnace
#

what is good

mellow urchin
#

quite a lot

wind furnace
#

so you say

mellow urchin
#

cus now they can just deal dmg, like many other specs and dont have to hold their cds for a minute or similar

wind furnace
#

we won't see boonkin played a lot in 9.2?

#

due to the change

mellow urchin
#

no i am not saying anything like that

wind furnace
#

okay

mellow urchin
#

but them not playing venthyr anymore changes their dmg profile A LOT and has a big impact on how you play it in raid

wind furnace
#

sounds like a good change then

mellow urchin
#

it is

#

for the game

#

mostly

#

cus i really dont want to see a fight where its beneficial to hold dps for 3 min cds

#

again

livid ferry
#

Current boomkin lives in a realm of its own

#

That being gone is good

#

For the entire game

wind furnace
#

i just don't thin

#

'think

#

that any of them need to fear of their raid spot

#

or change class

livid ferry
#

Well yea they dont

mellow urchin
#

thats whatever

livid ferry
#

The goal isn’t to make boomkin nyalotha sub rogue

mellow urchin
#

almost no one has to fear of their raid spot because they play a certain class

delicate osprey
#

the important thing is now blizz can make bosses with meaningful dps checks

livid ferry
#

Ideally everyone is within a couple % on sim

#

And have their niches

delicate osprey
#

not just have 5 boomkings and alternate ramps

livid ferry
#

And their niches are represented in the raid

#

That is the perfect world

wind furnace