tc-subtlety

[rugged solar]

Update Goremaws Bite optimizations:

Lines changed:

...
actions.cds+=/goremaws_bite,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=3&(!cooldown.shadow_dance.up|talent.shadow_dance&buff.shadow_dance.up&!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4&!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|talent.the_rotten|raid_event.adds.up)
...


Lines removed:

- #ctions.stealthed+=/goremaws_bite,if=talent.invigorating_shadowdust&!buff.vanish.up&combo_points.deficit>=3&(buff.premeditation.up|!talent.premeditation)&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<3

New APL:

[rugged solar]

Small gain of 0.x% or neutral for most setups. Bigger gains for some outliners like shown in the highlights.

[latent fjord]

do we hold flag to always sync it with blades?

[rugged solar]

we sync the two but it also means we can use flag earlier if the mastery part lines up well

[rotund flint]

there was naked flag sended in that 260k sim

flag used 1 16 and blades 1 33

that is optimal?

2 38 naked flag and than 4min flag with blades

[past fable]

Stop reading anything from that sim

[rotund flint]

why?

[past fable]

Like i said right after he posted it

Its completely fucked

[rotund flint]

miss that part

[rugged solar]

could be a bad sample sequence

[past fable]

Nah thats what happens with 1 dust

[rotund flint]

but have smoother opener vs 2dust sim

[rugged solar]

damn

i am stupid

did spend a hour questioning why something does not work

this

vs. this (without fix)

once you see it

[turbid pulsar]

[rugged solar]

Solution to the riddle: ||If you don't see it no worry, its subtle (bun intended). The first line in the list has +=/ instead of =. This leads to the entire list beeing added at the bottom to the old list instead of replaced.||

[turbid pulsar]

First thing whispyr taught me about copying

[rotund flint]

kek

[rugged solar]

ye, the irony hits hard

because i explained it just 1-2 weeks ago in #tc-research

[turbid pulsar]

sometimes brain turns off for a bit

[rugged solar]

okay, time to re-run my ~20 talent test cases again

https://tenor.com/view/hide-the-pain-harold-smile-pain-looking-gif-17739676

[ivory kestrel]

just woke up after a mighty nap

i think after a good sleep i finally got how to not have the random shadowstrike after sepsis

it has to be not strike if rotten buff is up and sepsis dot is up leaving it here so i don't forget while i do momi dailies

also i saw the change for gmb seems almost the same as mine kinda will look if it makes it uses as first builder in dance if possible

[rugged solar]

the gwb change took me long to get optimized

i assumed it was easy, but took a while longer than anticipated

also currently another change

[supple adder]

what is this change about if is it not too long to explain?

[ivory kestrel]

use it in dance as first builder always was mine

haven't looked at fuu's one but seems almost the same

[supple adder]

with or without tfd?

[ivory kestrel]

don't think it matters much

as the backstab in dance is only with blades

although you can ask him tomorrow when he wakes up if with tfd you can sneak in a backstab

and use goremaw second

should be easy to check

[supple adder]

makes sense, I was going to ask if you emulated tfd by entering dance with a few cps

[ivory kestrel]

you can kinda do that with cp deficit>5 or 6 i guess

[past fable]

Backstab during dance is only worth it during blades, tfd does not change this

When we checked

[ivory kestrel]

there you have it

[remote sparrow]

i think it might be forcing it on every blades

peak is about 200k higher than before for each peaj

[past fable]

Any sim including replicating is going to be vastly missleading currently, and even sims that dont have shadowed finishers doing weird amounts of damage

[ivory kestrel]

oh boi that one will be fun

[coarse laurel]

Yeah frankly things seem so messed up on the current build, I'm hesitant to even try to fix it. Until we get some fixes and clarification.

Just kinda a mess atm ><

[ivory kestrel]

tbh i will agree with you on that one

this week we might get a clarify

seems they rushed a fix for the crackshot krangle but ours might be deeper in the pasta

[rugged solar]

Symbols of Death simplified + updated:

Lines changed:

...
actions.cds+=/symbols_of_death,if=variable.snd_condition&(!buff.the_rotten.up|!set_bonus.tier30_2pc)&buff.symbols_of_death.remains<=3&(!talent.flagellation|cooldown.flagellation.remains>10|buff.shadow_dance.remains>=2&talent.invigorating_shadowdust|cooldown.flagellation.up&combo_points>=5&!talent.invigorating_shadowdust)
...
actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.rotten&(!talent.the_first_dance|combo_points.deficit>=4|buff.shadow_blades.up)&(variable.shd_combo_points&variable.shd_threshold|(buff.shadow_blades.up|cooldown.symbols_of_death.up&!talent.sepsis|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=6&!set_bonus.tier30_2pc|!buff.symbols_of_death.remains&set_bonus.tier30_2pc)&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<10+12*(!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|set_bonus.tier30_2pc))
...


lines removed:

- actions.cds=variable,name=rotten_condition,value=!buff.premeditation.up&spell_targets.shuriken_storm=1|!talent.the_rotten|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>1

New APL:

Was in all talents i tested within error range or damage positive.

As by tradition now:
Highlights (cherry picked taletns):

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/u8D7yzBGURSLuX2fhLfNNW

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qbwbu8cyoa1u5pUyH2cxiW

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/r2zTtF5ThorcTg97EYjduk

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hHqptHQaagwLu3jm8DD8DW

[past fable]

Ye it wasnt a jab at you, moreso at blizzard with how whacky its been

[rugged solar]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1163512634616860724/1165617857854451832/image.png

^ tested against 24 talent setups

[rugged solar]

tbh it still feels like they don't have enough eyes/dev power

we see the same happen each dev cycle and this while blizz should sucessively get more efficient

esp. after absorbing a game studio which should by now be able to support the dev team

[valid robin]

Probably working on 11.0

[rugged solar]

possible. blizzcon is soon too, so maybe we get more information about 11.0

[ivory kestrel]

ok came back after eating what does change kinda in last APL

seems like dance change and

[rugged solar]

mostly more agressive symbols use

the irony of improvements that don't change much for the top builds

but have bigger impact on some others, like seen in the highlights

[ivory kestrel]

well i also had a symbols line so that was used for the sepsis on pull and other times

i also had to put it higher than sepsis for it to trigger kinda

and i think i got the way to make it not strike with rotten before dance but will check before

don't think the new symbols line would mess it up will copy and see

[rugged solar]

you can just try to incorparate your change to it

or add a additional symbols line if you want to have it used earlier than the apl would trigger

[ivory kestrel]

yea will do after i fix the shadowstrike thingy but it is quite straightforward for the opener as it is the only time we are in subterfuge and need to use it with rotten actions.cds+=/symbols_of_death,if=variable.snd_condition&cooldown.sepsis.ready&(buff.subterfuge.up+talent.subterfuge.enabled)|(!buff.the_rotten.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3)&(buff.symbols_of_death.remains<=3&cooldown.shadow_dance.charges_fractional<1+talent.shadow_dance|!set_bonus.tier30_2pc)&variable.rotten_condition&variable.snd_condition&(!talent.flagellation|cooldown.flagellation.remains>10|cooldown.flagellation.up&combo_points>=5)

the first thing before the | and putting it above sepsis in the actions list

also the snd condition so it does not use it before the first strike kinda

things to do too is making it use snd/rupture after first strike and blades with sepsis to fill cp

but first i want to kill the shadowstrike before dance

[remote sparrow]

I dont see any ER related changes in the changes in pins, does that mean we dont have any optimizations for ER?

[rugged solar]

the pinned change is only the last one, so you would need to go through all changes and see if they had a er change

but ER is something i did not yet look at

[rugged solar]

Apl change collection:

• first iteration
• Danse Macabre
• Shadowdust
• Flagellation/Shadowblades
• Thistl Tea
• Trinket optimization
• more Trinket optimizations
• Symbols Optimization
• initial GwB Optimization
• GwB Optimizations
• TfD Optimizations
• Shadow Dance optimizations
• more,more, more, more
  I hope i didn't miss anything, likely did miss 1-2.

[rugged solar]

Gear profile for 10.2:
remove source=default if you want to use it in top gear/quick sim.

[rugged solar]

More Trinket Optimizations:

• Moved Flagellation trinked conditions to a variable
• Optimizations for Ashes/Twisted Blades/Withered Branch/Mirror (double on use should be optimized, dust and no dust).
  Note: Branch has build in delayed pickup, the icd changed from 20 to 30 seconds so you can't overlap it with ashes. The best delayed use is picking up two orbs immidiatly and delay the 3rd pickup. The following apl line is realistic and somewhat optimal:

dragonflight.witherbarks_branch_timing=1/1/7```
__What does this change do?__
Syncs cooldowns better with Trinkets.

Lines Changed:
```ansi
actions.cds=variable,name=trinket_conditions,value=(!equipped.witherbarks_branch&!equipped.ashes_of_the_embersoul|!equipped.witherbarks_branch&trinket.witherbarks_branch.cooldown.remains<=8|equipped.witherbarks_branch&trinket.witherbarks_branch.cooldown.remains<=8|equipped.bandolier_of_twisted_blades|talent.invigorating_shadowdust)
...
actions.cds+=/flagellation,target_if=max:target.time_to_die,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>10&(variable.trinket_conditions&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains<=3|fight_remains<=28|cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=14&talent.invigorating_shadowdust&talent.shadow_dance)
...
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=witherbarks_branch,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.shadow_blades.up|(equipped.bandolier_of_twisted_blades|talent.invigorating_shadowdust)&!stealthed.all
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=ashes_of_the_embersoul,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&(buff.shadow_blades.up|equipped.witherbarks_branch)
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=mirror_of_fractured_tomorrows,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&(target.time_to_die>=15|equipped.ashes_of_the_embersoul)
...

New APL:

[past fable]

In theory it should just be strictly better use branch earlier to pick up the orbs at 1/10/19 though

Since you dont lose anything but you gain ~10 seconds of 1 stack

[remote sparrow]

yeah 100%, you can just gain 10 seconds of free mastery buff that way

[rugged solar]

the time is the delay between pickups

so you mean 0/10/9 i assume

[past fable]

Well ideally 0/9.999/9.999 but ye

[rugged solar]

thats too wild 😛

[past fable]

Unrealistic to say the least

Better to have it at 9

[rugged solar]

to be fair we need to give 1-2 sec leeway for realism

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6LzRKCEjgypzgmJ5HrBWYi

unless there is a mistake in implementation, 1-1-7 seems the best

probably could do 1-1-9

[past fable]

You need to use it 9 seconds earlier with the second option, otherwise it wont be 3 stacked for your cds or whatever you are syncing it to

[rugged solar]

it just got implemented yesterday, so experimental

ah fair

so maybe needs adjustments in trinket use

[past fable]

But tbf i dont think its a massive deal as its probably only 1 evis and a couple of rupture ticks youd buff with it

[rugged solar]

i think the above is a good base to go from

there is always room for further improvements

[remote sparrow]

is the baseline the non dust 2 minute build?

[rugged solar]

wait, moment

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8CK5BM32eReS8wV9onA468

non dust

so in essence, branch manages to make non dust rly competitive

[remote sparrow]

2 min playstyle 1 dust super stonks

[rugged solar]

also potentially makes subtelty a strong Avoker target

[remote sparrow]

if u dont mind could u also run the 1 dust?

[rugged solar]

the first one is the one dust

the 2nd one was without dust

[remote sparrow]

ah thanks

[rugged solar]

this also means we have the 4 on use trinkets optimized

maybe there is some more surface for further improvements, as eleem pointed out

[past fable]

Well dust benefits from replicating and shadowed doing ~200% and ~50% more damage than intended than dust does

[rugged solar]

oh yes absolutely

#not final numbers

i am not sure how useful a collection of all apl changes is

because i don't think anyone will go through all changes individually

but i pinned it, so people can keep track

a maybe smarter idea would be to do a diff compared to the first 10.2 apl

[remote sparrow]

thats a good idea, to see the total improvements!

[rugged solar]

or maybe do a rundown/post about all changes at some point

i don't think most ppl rly understand or read the change, so the format is rly only useful for people who have a rough idea what the apl does and maybe understand the inpact

[remote sparrow]

shadowed fiinishers is doing 50% more than intended in sims?

[mystic sequoia]

I guess that translation is mainly what guides and faq is for

[rugged solar]

yes kinda

the problem with a guide format is you still need to simplify

you potentially leave out details you can talk about if you go over the apl line by line

because of information density

[mystic sequoia]

Yeah, I FAQ is a lot better format for "What's different from last patch" and guides being more of a "If you start from no knowledge" kind of thing

[rugged solar]

it is the initial idea of the seperation

i did in the faq with a "optimization" section

when teachning you always need to consider to not overwhelm the one who is reading

[mystic sequoia]

There's also a world where we go back to commenting apl lines in the apl ^^

[rugged solar]

oh ye i need to port back the comments

i used a copy of the apl without comments for the first iteration

but thats just a polishing step at the end

[mystic sequoia]

Yeah comments are messy when working, same with regular code too. Not too many fans of commenting code and reviewing comments while editing out there :p

[rugged solar]

i like to use comments where it makes sense (e.g. moroes)

things that safe you time to understand whats happening

but i do think apl comments target a diffrent crowd than what i mentioned

in order for someone to benefit from them, the individual needs to already:
#1 Go intentionally away from the graphical interface.
#2 have a high interest in learning the apl or already worked with the apl before
#3 have a rough understanding how lines work together, there are certain dependencies that are not trivial to understand.

so at least for me there is a difference between individual parts.

or to use software for example:

• the code would be what the program does (-- the apl --)
• the comments would line out things that are non trivial (first layer of abstraction -- apl comments --)
• a writeup that explains every line/function would be something that helps people to understand all technical details (second layer -- documentation, design docs, etc. -- would be similar to a writeup going over all apl lines and changes)
• The user manual will only list the things that seem relevant, and try to simplify ( third layer of abstraction -- Guides --)

so in a sense for the vast maority of the playerbase only the last layer matters

[river folio]

Just to get some starter data: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/K2cC7j8WgtZyqmaT#fight=1&type=casts&source=4 147 ruptures, obviously not enough, but I want to make a WA to help with timing so I can more easily watch youtube on other monitor and make sure to not cast too quickly

Going to do that then get back to much more

I don't know how to write scripts for logs so I'm just data gathering

[mental dirge]

oh

shadow rupture is attached to the rogue now

cool

[ivory kestrel]

yea same here https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/MAgFnZH6CVhpzXLk#fight=last&type=damage-done&source=16

now we know to do whhen we get bored but i don't think it is stacked like before just has a static % then at 4 it has a pity proc

seems like a fat 50% then unlucky mode on 4

[mental dirge]

just realized secret technique clones are now disjointed from player in logs lol

[remote sparrow]

oh yeah theyve been for a week now atleast

[river folio]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Rr3gNbxqWzfkDLC6#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=8 352 rupture casts

[eager grotto]

?? every one I check is the same sort of delay (0.7-1.1 seconds) as all the logs ive seen, but this one is either 0.18s or 4.8s

what is this janky ass mechanic 😂

[river folio]

There were a few moments where I was alt tabbed for a bit but like that shouldn’t affect things

For like 5 seconds or longer

[eager grotto]

imagine if the clone pauses while youre alt tabbed

[river folio]

[eager grotto]

get a shadow evi proc then alt tab and wait for burn phase

[river folio]

I mean in terms of proc chance I think we’ve narrowed in on them.

What we still don’t know is deck reshuffling

[ivory kestrel]

@rugged solar you can check the only change was to check for DM to avoid problems in some dances with rotten and using strike instead of goremaw https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dZWYP7j9nb6pQi251pwwL7

actions.cds+=/goremaws_bite,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=3&(!cooldown.shadow_dance.up|talent.shadow_dance&buff.shadow_dance.up&!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4&!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|talent.the_rotten|raid_event.adds.up)

actions.cds+=/goremaws_bite,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=3&(buff.danse_macabre.stack>=1|!talent.danse_macabre)&(!cooldown.shadow_dance.up|talent.shadow_dance&buff.shadow_dance.up&!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4&!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|talent.the_rotten|raid_event.adds.up)

[rugged solar]

will do later, thanks

[ivory kestrel]

also how do you make it so it checks if a debuff is up to not use strike i tried this but it messes it up i think

actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,if=stealthed.sepsis&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4&!(buff.the_rotten.up&debuff.sepsis.up)|!used_for_danse&buff.shadow_blades.up

[rugged solar]

debuff.name.remains

[ivory kestrel]

so it would be &debuff.sepsis.remains

[rugged solar]

yes, could be typically even better to get a specific amount

[ivory kestrel]

well does not matter really it is just so it does not strike while the debuff is up

[rugged solar]

e.g. if you want to use dance for the last tick of sepsis (what i asusme is your idea)

you can add

[ivory kestrel]

so rotten charges are always used on sepsis and goremaw here

[rugged solar]

debuff.sepsis.remains<=5 or so

[ivory kestrel]

instead of the random strike

but not kill the strike after dance will try a remains >6 should work

[eager grotto]

from the 3 logs above its plausible that shadow rupture is now just 1/3 chance to proc on each of cast 2,3,4, so about as simple as it could be

which would just be 0%->33.3%->50%->100%

i hope its that so we can get sims more working 🙏

[past fable]

Fwiw if all of them are on average 33% simc is already working just fine, the average result is the same

[eager grotto]

oh, dope

[rugged solar]

quick simulation on that

[supple adder]

at least the combo points you gain from the proc are instant

[eager grotto]

Oh that's good that'd be horrible to play with otherwise

[eager grotto]

Ah if you change the 66 to a 50 you'll get what my guess is, it's pushing the data a little but it just seems so natural for them to set it up that way

It's a bit annoying cause for choosing the percentages you'd probably choose them like 0, 33, 33, 33 like the distribution of procs so it ends up to 100%, but for discussing them and playing the most useful is to talk about the chance at each stage which is like 0, 33, 50, 100

So it's the same thing but not super trivial to swap between them haha

[rugged solar]

25-50-100 seems likely

[river folio]

What data set is this from? Is this from @brazen palm overnight test?

[rugged solar]

the above

it is just a simple program i wrote that does x finishing moves with the input probabilities

[river folio]

Oh I see

[rugged solar]

so its easy to see the proc chance, average proc every x casts etc.

[remote sparrow]

now instead of solving it numerically we build a conditional model, write the maximum likelihood function for it, and optimize it! ez :p

[narrow leaf]

havent been keeping up here but with the latest changes is is possible a dark brew no dust build will be more competitive now?

[past fable]

Fwiw on average its gonna be exactly the same on average having that stacked thing for 33.64% compared to just having it be 33.64% proc chance every time.

Obv you cant check if doing some rupture fishing is worth it unless you make it the stacked deck stuff, but thats like the only difference

[remote sparrow]

yeah 100%

the only difference potentially could coem from rupture

I tried some things like trying to keep up a shadfowed rupture up at all times, was not that bad actually outside of dance

was awful any other time

[river folio]

The aura is updated with 0/33/66/100 if you want to mess with fishing/deck playing or whatever, btw. Don't knwo if that'll change to 25-50-100 based on the above but simple enough to update, and the 100% is probably the important number which is the same after 4 casts in either case

[rugged solar]

could be 33/50/100 too

the problem is all of the mentioned rates can show around 33% proc chance with low sample size

[remote sparrow]

i did try some things, it felt quite a bit worse than the previous iteration since the first one cant proc anymore.

im still trying to find a balance though, because even when you low roll and get into the 'bad' loop of it, playing around it seems to be a gain vs ignoring it

and when you high roll and get into the 'good' loop, its a very non trivial difference.

[rugged solar]

the line is essentially the same as:
actions.cds+=/goremaws_bite,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=3&buff.shadow_dance.up

and iirc this wasn't a win for all talent setups

sim:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9CT1iLxTtiprhbADycVcf4/simc

i think i had that on my tests, but i had so many tast cases i don't remember exactly

and to quickly double check with some gwb builds.
Build 1
Build 2
Build 3
Build 4
Build 5
Build 6

but i have some other ideas (not for GB)

[remote sparrow]

ty chef!

[past fable]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kp4vAMxBSLrBubLX5rHSwk
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=witherbarks_branch,if=buff.flagellation_buff.up
Just adding a simple check so it doesnt use witherbark on nothing (mostly for the ~4 min mark with double dust), didnt cause any issues with non-dust

[remote sparrow]

lets go!! its starting to make sense again woo

[rugged solar]

oh good thought

probably works with ashes too

[past fable]

Not really because ashes want to be used during cds

Not right before

We already have an ashes line ```actions.cds+=/use_item,name=ashes_of_the_embersoul,if=buff.shadow_dance.up&buff.shadow_blades.up

[rugged solar]

let me check

baseline loss
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/a9cWGpVAPSPW8rbq1U4GYh

but better with your talent setup

[past fable]

RS still kinda turbo skews anything, which is why im simming without it

[rugged solar]

fair

[supple adder]

maybe a silly question but why dont you fix RS in the sims? and what's the problem with it again?

[past fable]

Because we are expecting them to change it again, and modifying it in the sim means its gonna be broken again once they fix it

And we didnt expect that a bug that was this impactful would stay for several weeks (its the same cause as the bp shadowed finisher thing)

[supple adder]

ok and we have no idea what they plan for it is on ptr?

[rotund flint]

most of discussion with realz was about tier set proc chance unfortunaly

[supple adder]

well he did not say much

[ivory kestrel]

Ok i found the outlier that krangles the other builds

they are using inev instead of sepsis will try and put the condition to only be active with sepsis talented and see what happens

after you wake up im also in a labyring with 3 diff things right now too: not wasting rotten with free shadowstrike from sepsis, using rupture after first strike(to fill combo points with blades on second builder) and not refreshing snd during blades

will try a bit later again when the LoL tourney is up

if anyone wants to help tell me XD

[rugged solar]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/76d1e0d46376fb71d91029426b9bbfc27adc7256

koji made some changes yesterday

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/7ce1fbc744620daf217c40fd83371e5de3624db6

[oak crystal]

sup guys, few sim from Russia)

1. bugs=1
   https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gkDBxtquMSwWqKV46eM6vY
2. bugs=0
   https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/g3537u5wKNSaU2xs21M4s8
   sepsis dust build

[rugged solar]

i think the dark brew takent changes are not in yet

also its unclear if the above won't change

[oak crystal]

there's no dark brew in this build

[rugged solar]

my point was, that the highest simming build potentially changes

with bugfixes to shadowed finisher, or due to dark brew

[oak crystal]

if* )

[rugged solar]

i am fairly certain shadowed finisher will be bugfixed

replicationg shadows is weird

because it changed so much on ptr

so unclear what the final goal is

but you are correct

there is a lack in transparency on how its supposed to work

[rugged solar]

As by tradition, simulations:
Branch:
Simulation

branch + ashes:
Simulation

More trinket optimizations
based on eleems changes #1065728795455266888 message .
Reference for the witherbark apl condition: dragonflight.witherbarks_branch_timing=1/1/7
Expected gain: 0.x % changes for non dust setups.

What does this change do?
Give Ashes a higher priority over Branch.
Changes trinket sync to flagellation to allow slightly earlier trinket use.

Lines changed:

// Ashes moved up above witherbarks //
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=ashes_of_the_embersoul,if=buff.flagellation_buff.up&talent.invigorating_shadowdust|buff.shadow_dance.up&!raid_event.adds.up&!equipped.witherbarks_branch
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=witherbarks_branch,if=buff.flagellation_buff.up&talent.invigorating_shadowdust|buff.shadow_blades.up|equipped.bandolier_of_twisted_blades&raid_event.adds.up

New APL:

[ivory kestrel]

did you check if not using snd during blades was anywhere

i saw some snd refreshes in dance

i tried to put it in and failed miserably ahaha

also is there any way to make it not use the free strike while sepsis is up i tried things like actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,if=(!buff.the_rotten.up&!dot.sepsis.ticking)&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4|!used_for_danse&buff.shadow_blades.up it worked kinda but then there is the last line with a actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike don't want to touch that one as every time i did anything everything krangled

[rugged solar]

both in dance and shd can happen

i do think i checked it

btu it wasn't a gain

currently testing something else tho

[rugged solar]

^ this change

[ivory kestrel]

yea just my head was breaking on trying to kill that strike for so long

i managed to get sepsis and SoD on opener also having trouble with the rupture after first strike but that one seems doable

[rugged solar]

just remember, that simulations can deviate from strict sequences we assume work well

does not mean, they are wrong, but it is easy to try to force a specific thought

[ivory kestrel]

yea first i was looking at trying to get it kinda right like not wasting procs etc then seeing what are wins

same as getting the rupture on opener or letting snd drop for 1 sec because you are using a strike anyway 1 sec later if they are not wins it is fine but kinda an exercise to how to get to them

[past fable]

actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4
This line means that in aoe when youve gotten CP from the tier set it sometimes uses finishers at 2 cp, which is not fantastic.

actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4&combo_points.deficit<=2
I what i added to fix it quickly but theres probably some better way of doing it, i have a real hard time seeing how this would negatively impact any other build negatively.
7 targets https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/26KAS2q3X5cwcmGi6BzcdJ
Dungeonslice https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bzAb5kwJQYx5GzYHtZRR8f

Dslice and 7 target respectively

[rugged solar]

nice, good find

will post a apl update in a moment

[rugged solar]

can look into it after that

Danse Macabre update:

• simpler variable which should be easier to fine tune.
• eliminates early secret casts

What does this change do?
Ensures that Shadow strike or Shuriken storm is used before secrt techniques, the sim could end up using secret before that due to the Tier set or Shadowcraft procs.

Changed lines:

actions.finish=variable,name=secret_condition,value=(action.shadowstrike.used_for_danse|action.shuriken_storm.used_for_danse)&(action.eviscerate.used_for_danse|action.black_powder.used_for_danse|action.rupture.used_for_danse)|!talent.danse_macabre
```Removed lines:```diff
- actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,if=stealthed.sepsis&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4|!used_for_danse&buff.shadow_blades.up```
New APL:

[rugged solar]

Highlights:
Simulation

Simulation

[rugged solar]

probably the better way, but need to test

[rugged solar]

^ just tested, seems good to go

[past fable]

Ye i tried that too but i assumed the line had a place somewhere, but maybe it does

[rugged solar]

it seems like a artifact

i also tried removing the other 4 cp finishing rule

but it had some impact in specific setups

so that one seems to still hold up

so was a oversight

rly good fing

'find

Finishing condition cleanup
Thanks for eleem for the finding.

What does this change do?
Removed a outdated finishing condition that would conflict with the tier set.

Removed lines:

- actions.stealthed+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=4```
New APL:

[rugged solar]

btw. please give me feedback on this

i think of keeping the apl updates pinned for at least some days, possible a week

because, this would allow people to go through the changes and see the individual ones

instead of only having the latets one

[past fable]

Besides the most recent one i dont think you need to keep em very long, as long as you add them onto the apl update list i feel like it servers the same purpose

But ye if you feel like putting the time into combining the pins then feel free to do it, but i dont think its that necessary

[rugged solar]

oh yes, if e.g. there are follow up chanegs

only having the last one is fine

i didn't want to combine them

just keep the pin for longer

so it allows you to just scroll through, but not sure if thats the best solution

the amount of changes will probably go down significantly over time

but we had 21+ changes overall

so asusming thats 3-4 weeks total

nearly one change per day

changes from the first iteration of the apl to the current one

more than 50% of the apl changed

visualization (zoomed out so you probably won't see inividual lines)

[rugged solar]

Latest apl
^ forot to include the trinket changes in the last pin.

[rugged solar]

just saw that you did quite some apl changes, will test and incorporate them when possible.

[rugged solar]

update Update for finality and Stealth ability use:

• Ported relevant changes from #1065728795455266888 message
• Updated/re-introduced some stealthd conditions.
• Energy threshold changes not included.

What does this change do?

• Backstab / Gloomblade is only used during Shadow Dance + Shadow Blades when premeditation is not up
• Shadow strike is used for a Danse macabre stack when Shadow blades is up (relevant for multi target).

Changed lines:
Stealth ability use. :```ansi
actions.stealthed+=/backstab,if=!buff.premeditation.up&buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3&buff.shadow_blades.up&!used_for_danse&talent.danse_macabre&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=3&!buff.the_rotten.up
actions.stealthed+=/gloomblade,if=!buff.premeditation.up&buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3&buff.shadow_blades.up&!used_for_danse&talent.danse_macabre&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4
actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,if=!used_for_danse&buff.shadow_blades.up
actions.stealthed+=/shuriken_storm,if=!buff.premeditation.up&spell_targets>=4

Finish conditions:```ansi
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=(!variable.skip_rupture|variable.priority_rotation)&target.time_to_die-remains>6&refreshable
actions.finish+=/rupture,if=buff.finality_rupture.up&buff.shadow_dance.up&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4

New APL:

Highlights:
Simulation

Simulation

Simulation

Combination with GB:
Simulation

[oak crystal]

@rugged solar tag me when you compare your final apl and mine plz

[rugged solar]

if you want to 1:1 compare, need to wait for me to update the enegry threshold

but moment

[oak crystal]

sure

[rugged solar]

i just add the energy threshold hack condition to it

the baseline setup:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1KAUa5h2SPbt94wEngCRGb

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/x4p2NXLNZ1KzMi436nD8of

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qTRUVVN863gVhMm794TexA

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wrqaUaxBVAMtk6jyaZVn7W

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uF95DTmrg56vFoTJyyEsm4

old = pre change
baseline = new apl
main x = your apl```

[rugged solar]

so this is the "worse case" and still within error range

[oak crystal]

I think you should also move sod/sb after the first rupture, this will allow you to get +1 sec bursts with mirror buff

[rugged solar]

possible, need to look into it more

it would make sense

for what its worth, it is how i put it in the guide on wowhead

[fickle shore]

ayo leak

[oak crystal]

hah

[past fable]

Spent a little bit trying to figure out if theres any gains to be had to improving the sepsis apl (as it seems pretty barebones currently) but i couldnt really find anything. All i found was that appending &combo_points.deficit>=1 to it is like a 0.1% gain in all setups because we dont end up wasting 0.5 cps on average, huge

[rugged solar]

[rugged solar]

I put this here, it does not seem like a damage loss, but would need to test multiple talent setups and fight styles to be sure.
purely for beutification of the opener.

actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=dot.rupture.ticking&variable.rotten&(...

[rugged solar]

update Shadow dust improvement + dance refinement:

What does this change do?
Don't use Shadow Dance when Rupture is not up.

Changed line:

actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=(dot.rupture.ticking|talent.invigorating_shadowdust)&variable.rotten&(!talent.the_first_dance|combo_points.deficit>=4|buff.shadow_blades.up)&(variable.shd_combo_points&variable.shd_threshold|(buff.shadow_blades.up|cooldown.symbols_of_death.up&!talent.sepsis|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=4&!set_bonus.tier30_2pc|!buff.symbols_of_death.remains&set_bonus.tier30_2pc)&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<10+12*(!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|set_bonus.tier30_2pc))


New APL:

Highlights:
Simulation

Simulation

Simulation

interesstingly enough

the symbols condition change we discussed with @brazen palm in #tww-subtlety seems to be independent of the rupture condition

so there is potentially still room to improve rupture handling for dust

[spiral forge]

Is there a guide to read the apl or a fully commented version (maybe of an older one?) somewhere? I’m starting to get into it

[ivory kestrel]

im planning on making some guides eventually now after i kinda finish the ptr videos

also i tried to also get some sepsis gains with rotten etc and i did manage to get things but it always krangled somewhere else one of the problems i have is the free shadowstrike after sepsis i kinda want to skip it so it does not consume rotten but every condition i try it is bust

[rugged solar]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/ActionLists

we have the apl wiki

there is no "guide"

the apl is basically a list of conditionals that get worked down top to bottom

there are some details on how to handle it

[spiral forge]

Thx! Are you using raidbots for fast debugging or a local simc installation?

[ivory kestrel]

raidbots is usually faster unless you have some server rig

also did not manage to do strike rupture x on the opener

maybe i need to see finisher general apply so it can use rupture on 3 cp+

tried actions.finish+=/rupture,if=!dot.rupture.ticking&time<=3&(buff.subterfuge.up+talent.subterfuge.enabled) but it only makes it skip and use the rupture below

the sepsis line did work to use it on opener with symbols with another but then i need to study more about the random shadowstrike and what to put so it does not affect other builds

also i think the symbols line changed again so have to look it up to see

also for some reason i was still getting vanish eviscerates instead of vanish strike so if anyone knows how to fix that one too

[rugged solar]

sry, i was distracted

[rugged solar]

i did earlier in #tww-subtlety with a loss

[ivory kestrel]

what condition did you use to manage it?

that and the strike after sepsis are my kryptonite the snd while in dance i just also find weird but it is what it is every condition that tried to fix that was at most neutral ahaha

[rugged solar]

i moved the finish condition for rupture

to the initial action list before cooldowns

and added a combo point check

so it would strike-rupture-...

[ivory kestrel]

ah like i though i needed to move something apart from the finisher conditions

[rugged solar]

and it did so

but at a damage loss

[ivory kestrel]

which sim was that?

[rugged solar]

for strike-ruprute-...

in the opener

[rugged solar]

but basic concept

you take the gear and apl from the pins

paste gear with apl between the top and bottom part in advanced

then

copy="give me a name"```
below

and copy the section of the apl you want to modify

(the secition is all the lines with action.X)
so e.g. you can copy the builder one

actions.build=shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=2+(talent.gloomblade&buff.lingering_shadow.remains>=6|buff.perforated_veins.up)
actions.build+=/variable,name=anima_helper,value=!talent.echoing_reprimand.enabled|!(variable.is_next_cp_animacharged&(time_to_sht.3.plus<0.5|time_to_sht.4.plus<1)&energy<60)
actions.build+=/gloomblade,if=variable.anima_helper
actions.build+=/backstab,if=variable.anima_helper```

and then you can start to do a change

(the secition is all the lines with action.X)
so e.g. you can copy the builder one

actions.build=shuriken_storm
actions.build+=/gloomblade,if=variable.anima_helper
actions.build+=/backstab,if=variable.anima_helper```

you change it to only use storm as a builder like this

by just removing all conditions

and after that you can start adding things

e.g.

actions.build+=/gloomblade,if=variable.anima_helper
actions.build+=/backstab,if=variable.anima_helper```

you add a condition by adding a "if=...."

and in this case i added a check for a buff

buff.symbols_of_death.up means if the buff Symbols of Death is active

and you can work one step at the time like this

and get familiar with how to change things

also if you got questions, just ask

copy is also what i use to compare apl changes

like

#1065728795455266888 message

^ in this case

[spiral forge]

Oh dear. Thanks for your time 😅 so the sim knows to replace the copied/changed section? And “sectioning” doesn’t change the priority, so actions.finish in the apl has kind of the lowest priority? I didn’t find anything on sections in the wiki yet but

Ah i found the call_action_list lines. It begins to unravel

[ivory kestrel]

lowest is stealth actions

[rugged solar]

yes, you don't need to copy the entire apl but only the sub list

the priority list goes from top to bottom

but call action will jump to the sub list

so, if we go top down

the first time this happens is with the sub list cds

so it will jump from the above to the sub list

then go over each option

and then go back to where the call happened and continue from there

we also have this

its run instead of call

and run does not return back

so it will stop after going through the stalthed list

[rugged solar]

in terms of priority, what gets used first has higher priority

lower number = higher priority

[past fable]

#tww-subtlety message
CB improvement for dust atleast, linking it here incase it gets burried in the #tww-subtlety discussions.

[rugged solar]

^
to shadow dance (for refrence, so i can easy copy/paste):

&(!talent.cold_blood|cooldown.cold_blood.remains<4|cooldown.cold_blood.remains>10)```

[past fable]

I checked some things about this and it seemed to not matter for non-dust, it seemed to be negative for sepsis and a gain without sepsis (with inev instead)

Occasionally the delays make sepsis not pop inside dance, but very frequently it just makes it have way more of the ticks outside of dance

[rugged solar]

so probably needs a spsis talent check

[past fable]

Probably worth checking the cold blood condition on sectech at the same time

[rugged solar]

mhm

so basically

a lot of the talents have dust too

and are a loss, but its often with one point in dust

so seems like its only good with 2 ranks in dust

[remote sparrow]

Makes sense because it fayrantees 2 sectech Crits during flag with 2 dust

But 1 dust doesn't get that

1 dust CB tinwre are gonna be 0 45, 1:30 so it doesn't actually get extra cb casts with 1 dust

[dire bramble]

its prob because of things lining up generally better over the course of the fight with double dust+the fact the sim is 5 min, which means 2 dust means you get extra casts of things compared 1 dust. Id imagine if you messed around with the sim length, 1 dust would probably sim a lot closer depending on specific fight times.

[remote sparrow]

But 2 dust actually gets more meaningful casts

[past fable]

Its more like 10-55-1:40 without dust

[remote sparrow]

Not really, because it's synced with sectech

[rugged solar]

#talents=BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLJJlEQKkkIiERSSkItUSkolkIJBIKpEAAAASQA
#talents=BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLJJlEQKkkISSQSSkItUSkolkIJBIKpEAAAASQC
#talents=BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLJJlEQKNJJiQQSSkItUSSiWSikEgokSAAAAIBJA
#talents=BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLRSJBkSTSiIEkkEJSLlkkolkIJBIHokSAAAAIBJA
#talents=BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLRSRAp0kkICBJJRi0SJJJaJJSSgIpkSAAAAIBJA
#talents=BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLRSRApUkkICBJJRi0SJJJaJJSSgIpkSAAAAIBJA

[past fable]

But it ends up being ~10, 1:10, 2:10 (with 0 dust)

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gxJBx9Xhs3XqXLnX9dwtbY
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ntS9gsH224z3CC8xjGnFbT
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dTrfq9vXhwFoVohHZYC47g
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uDBqJYVAgFyFNeecYmP4St
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cSew3riHSAuxhcuV5Uk3Sc
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/v8yJAkuGCywrQpAcoQtGDK

all of them are double dust with cb

all losses

half of them maybe due to sepsis

[remote sparrow]

Like 1 dust dances are gonna be 0, 10, 40, 1:10, 1:40 etc. And u don't get a CB cast on the 10.

So u don't get extra casts

Because it doesn't reset it enough

[rugged solar]

it seems to work well with one specific setup

so far

[remote sparrow]

Makes sense. Should only be a double dust thing

[rugged solar]

all the talents i linked

are double dust

and a loss

[remote sparrow]

Really! Interesting

[rugged solar]

its still a interessting change

[oak crystal]

1. my'das is good on 5m fight, but need fix use_items condition with mirror
   https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c1FnwUw933zFZEBguw36fz
2. looks like my'das works on FW in the game, but doesn't work in the sim

[rugged solar]

👍

not terrible trinket

[oak crystal]

+10% fw

[fickle shore]

isnt there a condition to check if a trinket have an active stat gain thing or not

[rugged solar]

you can check if a trinekt is on cooldown

[fickle shore]

I think what you would want to do here is check if the other trinket is an active stat thing and if it is hold mydas

I know I used something a bit similar in the past for our trinkets

I guess I just checked if trinket.1.has_cooldown

[rugged solar]

i only know of cooldown conditions, but would def. help if you could check for it

[fickle shore]

trinket.2.has_stat.any_dps there is also this thing

[rugged solar]

never seen that

what does it do

[fickle shore]

I think it checks if the trinket is an active that gives stats but I need to check on the wiki

[rugged solar]

don't see it on the wiki but see many specs use it

good to know

[fickle shore]

ye I think this means that a trinket proc a stat (any stat in this case)

combined with trinket.1.has_cooldown&cooldown ready or whatever it could be used to check if the other trinket is a stat "burst" trinket in which case you would want to hold your generic trinkets until this one is used

[rugged solar]

yes, seems reasonable

[oak crystal]

with flat +10%, fw almost 100% uptime

[fickle shore]

big number

[rugged solar]

probably need to be careful to not deadlock trinket use

[fickle shore]

yep

[rugged solar]

so not sure if its better than just adding the 2-3 specific trinkets

can check later

[fickle shore]

well its probably an issue you guys will run into everytime there is a stat burst trinket and other random actives

[rugged solar]

yes, but not all stats are good

e.g. haste isn't rly that helpful

so might not be relevant for alignment

[fickle shore]

ye true but generally if you are running a stat burst trinket its to use with your cds right

[rugged solar]

yep

[fickle shore]

you can also check specific stats instead of any with the line above

bit of a hassle tho

[rugged solar]

ah interessting

but def. something to look into

[fickle shore]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/wiki/Action-List-Conditional-Expressions can scroll down to trinket here

[rugged solar]

better defaults means less trinket specific lines are needed

[fickle shore]

probably something that has been solved by other specs also

might be able to just steal it from another spec

[rugged solar]

trinket.2.stat.mastery

seems fine

[rugged solar]

i saw the one you linked above used by many

so ye

more control is usually better

[rugged solar]

is that with the same line as the sim you linked?

[fickle shore]

I think he just made the trinket deal 10% more damage in this one

to simulate fw

[oak crystal]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/raYnYdcPb6w9vg6sC8sbvP

with override.spell_data=effect.710569.coefficient=64.748101

[rugged solar]

is the buff not in the latest?

interessting

[fickle shore]

its not the buff

apparently from what mainx is saying the trinket interact with FW in game

while it doesnt in sims

[oak crystal]

yeap

69% up in latest

[fickle shore]

so he overrode the trinket damage to "simulate" fw 10% damage amp

[rugged solar]

ohh ye

fair

(was a bit distracted, so missed that)

[rugged solar]

👍

[past fable]

Could probably be cleaned up a little, but its mostly changing flag to line up with shadow blades when running 1 dust, syncing it with symbols turned out to be a gain for other setups too, maybe only with the branch trinket equiped tho, didnt check for other trinkets
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jeWZiTDeQvkVyMRXAtbQQV 1 dust no swift
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rzYEcEBeWCDUPeMMVa7UaU 2 dust
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1aesdEqRkagDxRXLueBve8 2 dust sepsis
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e8oYREjYqa6dmyNXpLZxnx no dust

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1DJ3oLv83HnBsdtQRMc7y7 1 dust swift
Lining up flag+blades better with branch didnt seem to be a gain at all, the gains seemed to be from simply syncing them together better. Or atleast thats what i could find

[rugged solar]

Stealth threshold improvement:

• rev-visited the variable and split it to be easier to change.

What does this change do?
Shadow Dance and Vanish are now used more efficiently, delayed uses are less common.

Lines Changed:

actions+=/variable,name=stealth_threshold,value=20+talent.vigor.rank*25+talent.thistle_tea*20+talent.shadowcraft*20
actions+=/variable,name=stealth_helper,value=energy>=variable.stealth_threshold
actions+=/variable,name=stealth_helper,value=energy.deficit<=variable.stealth_threshold,if=!talent.vigor|talent.shadowcraft
actions+=/call_action_list,name=stealth_cds,if=variable.stealth_helper|talent.invigorating_shadowdust

New APL:

evaluation based on this spreadsheet and tested against ~30 talent combos with various energy talents

Highlights:
Simulation

Simulation

Simulation

[rugged solar]

nice

[past fable]

nah just keep yours pinned until youve fully incorporated it into your posts. Having both pinned is probably just confusing

[rugged solar]

i didn't want to lose it

^^

[past fable]

Ah i see xd

[rugged solar]

but i have a diffrent idea

did clean up the pins

#1065728795455266888 message

^ the "todo" pin now references the changes

(the first pin reaches max chars)

[rugged solar]

Mirror of fractured tomorrows optimization:

What does this change do?
Double on use Trinkets now prioritize Mirror of fractured tomorrows and use it first.

Changed lines:

actions.cds+=/use_items,if=!stealthed.all&(!trinket.mirror_of_fractured_tomorrows.cooldown.ready|!equipped.mirror_of_fractured_tomorrows)|fight_remains<10


New APL:

[rugged solar]

I tried to use a generalized condition, but the above was the cleanest solution.

Highlight:
Simulation

[coarse laurel]

Wait, why wouldn't it in sims?

FW is just an armor debuff, should work fine on physical trinkets

[fickle shore]

oh idk that was just mainx observation not mine

[coarse laurel]

That's never been an issue in the past

[fickle shore]

was explaining to fuu, but apparently all fine it does work

[coarse laurel]

Ah ok

[rugged solar]

txt already confirmed it working correct.
It also seems like we finally saw some bugfixes on ptr

[rugged solar]

From testing it seems like:

• Replicating still does not work with finality
• Shadowed Finisher BP is fixed and only applyies once now
• Shadowed Finisher Evi seems to do work with deeper dagger, etc now

i am not sure about the exact damage caluclation because it now deals ~50% of the damage as shadow

so possible that the damage calculation is now from the pre armor reduced value

[turbid pulsar]

and you didn't have vt and DB specced?

[rugged solar]

thats with dd and vt

dd, db and vt

30% * 1.1 * 1.08 * 1.05 = ~38%

still lower than ~50%

[turbid pulsar]

you sure thats how they interact

[rugged solar]

damage amps should be multiplicative

without DD, VT or DB

without gear (only one dagger)

[past fable]

Seems like its taking pre-armour values

[rugged solar]

its around ~8% higher, so thats my assumption too

[past fable]

Like you said

Is BP the same

[rugged solar]

and it would fit with the ~50% dps

[past fable]

Ye the armor fits every test you did, so thats probably it

[rugged solar]

pre armor + amage amps, asusming armor is roughly 8% is ~47,5%

what fits decently well towards

[rugged solar]

^ this

[turbid pulsar]

can you really calculte these amps that way tho

[rugged solar]

you get 30% of the value

and add the amps because its affected

[past fable]

Armor is a 21% reduction, so multiplying the shadow value by 0.79 gives you the right values

[rugged solar]

rupture

[turbid pulsar]

all amps vs no amps i suck at math so

[rugged solar]

yes but armor reduction is not 1:1 damage gain

reducing armor by 30% does not mean we deal 30% more damage from evi

[turbid pulsar]

fw is roughly 12% dmg increase to physical hits

last i tested it

[past fable]

Thats not what i said either

[turbid pulsar]

early df

[rugged solar]

ye i know

0.79 would give you 18.404 physical

so seems to be slightly too high with 0.79

0.76 seems fairly close

finality bp

non finality

(with dd, db and vt)

also seems to take the pre armor value

[past fable]

Is rupture+veiltouched+deeper working?

[rugged solar]

its not double dipping

but it works

#tww-subtlety message

^ i tested it earlier

[valid robin]

So shadow evis is doing damage assuming the evis hit a target with no armor?

That’s pretty good no?

[past fable]

It means it does more damage yes

[rugged solar]

yes, should be a noticable buff

[valid robin]

So it’s overall more than 10%

[rugged solar]

its hard to say before fixing the implementation

if you look at

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/0cf27d2d21cdd738b7ded801877fce1a20984013#diff-1cb3b60d68c43655a9a3f325bc455172d174514ee239d46004ebb00ab09b4a9c

the data base update

you see that missing family flags got set

and spells got added to e.g. certain damage amps

for example

[rugged solar]

this sim

so there is a certain amount of automatically parsed things

however, the implementation of bugs makes it likely that not everything works like it does on ptr now

some things are hard coded and need to be corrected by koji

if you run bugs=0 it will now have unreasonable high numbers potentially

because there could be some amount of double dipping with the spell changes

e.g. the same sim with bugs=0

which means that you can now troll people by showing the 370k sim

before the implementation is updated and the baseline result should end up still quite a bit higher

some bugs are also still intact

replicating shadows does not work with finality for example

^ reference: #tww-subtlety message

[fickle shore]

I knew it

[mental dirge]

You guys should really consider writing out apl changes in poor mans english like solo does or used to do

When you write out changed lines and just have some apl stuff i promise 95% of people have no fucking clue what changed

[rugged solar]

i think i did this for some changes

[golden rain]

this is gonna happen when faq goes up

no point in redoing it in english over and over when apl changes so frequently in ptr

[rugged solar]

i don't expect many people to read the channel/changes

but yes, can do

[mental dirge]

Writing a sentence about how to the gameplay is altered isn’t much imo lol

With your logic its pointless to post the apl change all together

[golden rain]

it kinda is, anyone theorycrafting can look at the github PR

[rugged solar]

its fine, it isn't too much extra effort

[golden rain]

most people dont care minute apl changes day to day

they just like the finished spec rota

[rugged solar]

i will still generalize it

e.g. for the energy changes

i won't write down 4 paragraphs on what energy value you consider

[mental dirge]

Yea no dont do that

No one will read it

[rugged solar]

people will still ask like

[mental dirge]

Like 2 sentences max

[rugged solar]

for very specific values

so not stating

"with x + y + z" will be as confusing

but the last 2 apl chanegs are essentially

[mental dirge]

Most ppl dont care about the apl youre right but they care to know if theres any drastic alterations in how they’ll play

[mental dirge]

While this is pretty much the same thing the way its formatted makes a big difference

[rugged solar]

#1 changing energy values to allow the sim to use stealth cooldowns more efficiently
#2 changing trinket use to use mirror first when using two on use trinkets

[mental dirge]

If it was beneficial to f.ex use flag inside dance for some reason i think most ppl would wanna know

[rugged solar]

yes, but i think soviet has a point

most peopl will look at guides or the faq for this information

where its written out

but i will add a scentence to the latest chanegs so whoever looks them up will have a rough idea

[mental dirge]

Think you’d be surprised

Regardless, w/o some sort of description on what changes in regular words, those apl pins might as well not be there then

[golden rain]

i like the apl text, its more descriptive of exactly what changed

and its frequently similar to weakaura conditions so i can change my WA with the apl

[ivory kestrel]

we usually put # comments in lines tho

[lilac crescent]

# Uses GB as first builder in dance for example

[ivory kestrel]

but that is for when things are more final

[lilac crescent]

Tbf this would help with learning apl

[mental dirge]

I thought this was ptr channel, one of the links in the pins took me here

[ivory kestrel]

ah happens

[lilac crescent]

actions.finish=variable,name=secret_condition,value=(action.shadowstrike.used_for_danse|action.shuriken_storm.used_for_danse)&(action.eviscerate.used_for_danse|action.black_powder.used_for_danse|action.rupture.used_for_danse)|!talent.danse_macabre

Like breaking this down into simple terms would be nice

[ivory kestrel]

i mean we could but also would need to explain conditions that get called

[lilac crescent]

[rugged solar]

yes, i talked about that the other day

that i need to re-add the comments

and also add new ones

i did add a short

What does this change do?

to the leastest chanegs

[rugged solar]

i would rly like if you would discuss less trumpish

[ivory kestrel]

well most of the time fuu does the favor of posting the past line and new line in colours

something that i could learn from

[mental dirge]

That was my mistake i thought this was the ptr channel

[rugged solar]

the problem is

using

"don't post apl updates if you don't do X"

is not a good ground to discuss about

you can go and hug seliathan, he loves to argue in this one sided way

[lilac crescent]

remember the colours don't work on mobile

[rugged solar]

the only purpose to do so is to cause conflict in a enviroment people actviely react on feedback

[mental dirge]

I mean if you have links to things in #tww-subtlety where the average apl not-knower can click on them and they just see a wall of +,_= what are they gaining from that pin

No ones trying to cause conflict

Im telling you how it is from the perspective of someone that doesn’t know how to read it

You click on the link, it leads you to a wall of hieroglyphics

[rugged solar]

yes, but you make the point

that even sharing this changes is bad

[mental dirge]

Yes i know

[rugged solar]

thats a terrible way to argue

[lilac crescent]

It was just a lil hyperbole

[mental dirge]

There was no real argument in the first place

[lilac crescent]

(especially as he thought he was in #tww-subtlety)

[mental dirge]

Again im just telling you from pov of regular person

[rugged solar]

fair

[lilac crescent]

improving readability of the apl would be very beneficial

not only for the average idiot like me

but also for you

so you don't have to read through an extensive condition and wonder what it be doing

[rugged solar]

you mean adding back comments

[lilac crescent]

yes

[rugged solar]

like i alreay mentioned the other day i would do

[lilac crescent]

Unfortunately cannot read everything

[latent sonnet]

the average person sees a pipe or ampersand and already gets a bit unsure

Definitely some knowledge required even if you make it as simple as you can

[rugged solar]

we had a discussion iirc with rosvall

interestingly enough with some diffrent opinions

[latent sonnet]

Personally I dislike having comments on every line and just comment lines that are particularly difficult to understand at a glance

[rugged solar]

#1065728795455266888 message

[latent sonnet]

With the target audience of someone who could actually make changes

[rugged solar]

thats what we did

every non trivial line is commented

[mental dirge]

I am just saying, if you are going to have pins that link to the “science” channel in a regular channel thats just meant for general discussion, you’re going to need to bridge that gap of understanding if the goal is to have people click on those links to understand something new

[rugged solar]

there is no reason to comment

[mental dirge]

Thats pretty much it

[rugged solar]

fair

i agree, i added a paragraph to the changes to explain them better too ^^

[mental dirge]

Otherwise I think the few people who do understand apl can find their way here fairly easy

[latent sonnet]

Well yeah, apl gets translated to an easier to understand language once the target audience broadens

[mental dirge]

Thanks

[latent sonnet]

aka guides or faq or whatever

[mental dirge]

Sure, but then I don’t see the purpose of highlighting them in the regular general discussion channel :x

[latent sonnet]

Ya that's mentioned here

[rugged solar]

i did suggest a in between

but not rly met a lot of agreement

because inherently guides/faq will at some point discribe the use

an up to the point it is mostly the more intressted ones that will read the change

so i am still unsure if going to explain all changes in a writeup is reasonable or not

or if the pinned changelog is good enough

[latent sonnet]

It's also a matter of time right

like you're investing time to write these changes that'll end up on the guides when patch drops anyway

[mental dirge]

The reason i even brought this up is because i clicked the link to this message and it just had the first part and then apl line changes, and i was just like ???

[latent sonnet]

and if you do make an English version of the changelog and later find an improvement that counters some of those things

[mental dirge]

Im sure theres probably others who experience a similar thing

[rugged solar]

ye fair

[latent sonnet]

Then you're prone to misinformation spreading just due to being out of date

[mental dirge]

Ye that is true

[rugged solar]

perfectly valid concern

if you find something not specific enough lmk

because TC should be easy accessable/understandable

so people can contribute easier

[rugged solar]

it is too

but it is also a matter of audience

spending hours writing up all apl changes in detail for 3 people to read it is probably not worth the time

it makes more sense to have these ask for specific details they didn't understand

[latent sonnet]

right exactly

[rugged solar]

@mental dirge the probably least intuitive thing in 10.2 is the finality use change

because you now use rupture in shadow dance with it

[mental dirge]

Ye definitely

[rugged solar]

the remaining changes are usually fairly logical

e.g. as a baseline using flag with sb is a good starting point

and a optimization would be to know that you can use it earlier even if it overlaps

gloomblade/backstab in shadow dance is another probably optimization thats not intuitive

(with shadow blades)

the rest seems relatively second nature

[azure drift]

APL comments very good

[rugged solar]

ye, will look to add them later

need to add a few more we did not have before

because i changed more than 50% of the apl

[azure drift]

helps you remember what you even changed

[rugged solar]

i have a lot of pins higlighting the exact changes even ^^

so at least for me personally most things are still in memory

[ivory kestrel]

i kinda have mine in the sheet rn but with so many overall have to even check again

[hallow escarp]

How’s the AOE/ST opener looking for next tier? Much different?

[balmy linden]

Will be interesting to see how the sims change and APL when updated because shadow finishers is fixed

[rugged solar]

the apl might not change much

a lot of the rules are not related to finisher damage

[rugged solar]

slightly diffrent

[rugged solar]

^ but whta will be interessting is just how much gear and talents will change

[remote sparrow]

I do think it is also worth it to think about how certain talent combos feel to play

For example, Yoda tried.both tornado and TFD in keys and it felt awful to play either

[lilac crescent]

tornado feels terrible now

[remote sparrow]

Kinda a similar case with whispyr in season 2, where not taking cttc was technically a DPS gain but he said nope I'm not publishing that to the public

[remote sparrow]

It's way worse without sealed fate and blades interaction

[visual hollow]

how so?

[lilac crescent]

you just don't need it

and there isn't a good time to use it in ST I feel

[visual hollow]

i kinda like that, wasn't a fan of tornado even in 10.1.7

[rugged solar]

agree

[remote sparrow]

We'll without tornado, we have quite literally 0 talents to help our aoe (if we end up taking RS in st) too

Kind of a first for a spec to not.jave any aoe talents for aoe. Based

[lilac crescent]

always has been

[turbid pulsar]

wdym dude Silent storm pog

[lilac crescent]

remove bp thanks

[turbid pulsar]

i did propose a tornado change to realz but i dont think its very high on his prio list

[remote sparrow]

Prob not, he said he's okay with it not being taken from what I remember

[visual hollow]

I suppose if tornado isn't worth it, you could take something like Exhilarating execution for more sustain/DR for higher keys?

without much loss

also what would be an alternative for Flag? or is it too OP to skip

[rugged solar]

flag is locked in

[visual hollow]

dam

[rugged solar]

the talent is too good

[ivory kestrel]

you can't because you need points

[visual hollow]

so even if you took deeper daggers you'd lose too much?

[ivory kestrel]

you don't even take deeper daggers

because you need to go down to dust

through PV

[visual hollow]

i was meaning to take DD instead of Flag

but if its too much of a damage loss then we can't

[ivory kestrel]

yea you can also play with 1 less dagger

kek

[visual hollow]

was thinking regarding the M+ tree

and using exhiliarating instead of tornado for more defensive

[remote sparrow]

No, u always take flag.

[ivory kestrel]

here this is your defensive option instead of flag

can't take dmg if not inside an instance

[visual hollow]

sorry I mean the defensive option is instead of tornado

but was asking if there was a dps alternative to flag thats all

[ivory kestrel]

not really

[visual hollow]

hmm

oh well

[ivory kestrel]

for tornado if they ever make the change fuu proposed of making it change placs with replicating maybe

[visual hollow]

yeah I hope thats the case

[rugged solar]

i am honest

silent storm even makes more sense in a easier to reach position

i would like the change between replicating and tornao simply because you are not locked to VT to reach flag

adds more dynamic to pathing

[rugged solar]

its also unclear if they want to ad more damage amp talents

iirc your proposal was to empower your next finishing moves

[turbid pulsar]

ive had a few different ideas but yes that was one of them

[balmy linden]

Make Goremaw empower your next 3 finishers or have another talent that adds another clone to sectech lol

[rugged solar]

i do think the "empwers your next" is overused

rotten and pv both seem even a bit too much

APL comments/cleanup:
Latest apl with comments re-introduced and small cleanup.
If any apl line needs more explanation please reach out to me.

[balmy linden]

They should just give us smokebomb as a dr like darkness.

[rugged solar]

^ sims slightly better on two targets due to cleanup

Removed/Changed line:

actions.finish+=/black_powder,if=!variable.priority_rotation&spell_targets>=3|!used_for_danse&buff.shadow_dance.up&spell_targets.shuriken_storm=2&talent.danse_macabre

```Explanation: Removes BP on 2 targets for DM stacks.

[latent sonnet]

Cleaned up and Sims slightly better? What a win

[rugged solar]

a lot of lines are just the old ones, but again if one line needs more explenation let me know

some lines seem obviouse but might not be for someone else looking at the sim

[golden rain]

do any talent setups change because of these latest apl fixes? the last pinned talent sets is from over a month ago in ptr-subtlety

[rugged solar]

they will

talents are the one thing you can't guarantee

before we have all bugfixes in simc

because more damage to finisher does push mastery value,
potentially changing the balance between dust and non dust builds

[golden rain]

where is the current up to date maintained on github? simc repo seems to not have a t31 profile

[ivory kestrel]

we haven't sent a profile yet

still many things to check and need to also update some data

[golden rain]

yeah but where can i see the WIP profile

i wanna test some apl changes for sin/sub

[rugged solar]

have fun

talents are not set, so need to put them in

[golden rain]

no github repo?

how do you guys collab/review changes

[rugged solar]

you mean like

in this channel?

i am not entirely sure what the question is

if you look at the last week

we had a lot of apl changes

it would be possible to push the latest version every time to github

but maybe a bit much, the majority won't sim before patch release

so the idea is to keep testing

and then push the latest version to simc once we are closer to release

[north slate]

Wouldn't pushing the apl to the repo constantly also just trigger constant rebuilds?

Having to wait for that to then get pulled into raidbots.

[rugged solar]

thats less of a issue

because serialos has set up a rebuild for "latest"

so its automated

[north slate]

Yeah, I'm more thinking the time investment in waiting for the build to actually take place and get grabbed.

Vs just copying from here.

[rugged solar]

but i don't have a github workflow set up

also i would need to parse the apl every time to the simc format

so maybe thats lazy, i just don't have the spare time right now to change it

and i do think the workflow works

as is

[golden rain]

nah you can have tagged releases

or daily releases on a schedule

github apps or CI infra will do that for u

[north slate]

Which slows down collaboration.

[golden rain]

its the opposite

[north slate]

If people are having to wait for a scheduled time for the new APL stuff to be available.

Vs it just being dropped somewhere.

[golden rain]

what i mean is, regardless of it being pushed into simc builds, github is a good place to collab changes and have the "latest" apl available rather than hunt down someone's local file on their system

[fickle shore]

ideally you just do both, normies can then sim on raidbot, and the people actively working on the apl just come here and all work on the most recent updated file that would be pinned or something

[golden rain]

you can review changes via pull request etc

[north slate]

Ohh, I misinterpreted what you meant. I thought you meant having the latest constantly being the current simc build.

Mb mb.

[golden rain]

nah

[fickle shore]

its a bit long and an hassle for a process that is so itterative rn

I mean you see how people are working rn

sending 10 apl stuffs every day in here

also have to consider most people just throw ideas

thast cant just be implemented into the official apl

fuu have to test if there is issues with other builds or obscure cases

so ye i dont think working on github really woudl help anyuthing rn

[golden rain]

ye but like what if fuu pc crash and you lose the apl, or what if two people simultaneously make different changes and you must merge them together, or fuu is offline and you want to test vs latest etc

[fickle shore]

there is probably a reason absolutly no one does it that way

[rugged solar]

its something i can think about in the future

[golden rain]

maybe i just work in devops so i have biased perspective

[fickle shore]

just pin the stuffs, he is doing it already

[golden rain]

but github is designed for team collab like this and to make it better

[fickle shore]

well idk about that

it wouldnt be as fast

you cant just talk in real time

[golden rain]

like right now i want latest assa apl

i have to wait for whispyr to respond to my dm

cause its not published anywhere

[fickle shore]

well whisp does things differently

thats another issue

[golden rain]

i cant suggest a change without going through him

etc

[fickle shore]

you can disagree with how he works

[rugged solar]

thats not the case for subtlety tho

[fickle shore]

but fuu pin the current apl

[rugged solar]

you can just look at the pins and get the latest apl

ofc you need to come to the channel

thats what i asusme is the complaint

[ivory kestrel]

dont think so i think sub is quite transparent for most things

[rugged solar]

as mentioned above, i can look to setup a toolchain to easy allow it to sync the change to simc

[remote sparrow]

ah yes let me send a request, have fuu approve it before i can push it

[rugged solar]

there isn't any bad intent

[remote sparrow]

we essentially do the same thing here, we throw out ideas, maybe a line, and fuus like oh this breaks aoe

and then we say hmmm

[ivory kestrel]

i mean i've found wins that later were krangles on other builds and many others have too

then we refine those even further

[remote sparrow]

maybe fuu can fix, then he fixes it

and updates pin

[ivory kestrel]

ayyy

[fickle shore]

ye

I mean github isnt made for imediate itteration idk

you cant just have a conversation in real time on github

[remote sparrow]

github is versioncontrol

not colab

[golden rain]

its both

[ivory kestrel]

ye

[remote sparrow]

yea but youre not pushing like 20 times a day, someone needs to approve these

[ivory kestrel]

you could use it for both but it is annoying for me at least

[fickle shore]

well I have never seen anyone uses github like we use discord

[remote sparrow]

and fuu usually does the final testing

[rugged solar]

not saying you are wrong

but

how long is it since legion now

in the entire time from legion till now

[ivory kestrel]

almost 8 years

[remote sparrow]

also Its just more wrok, not everyongs familiar with git in general.

[rugged solar]

we had 1 issue/pull request on apl

ONE

[remote sparrow]

but everyone can share their deaas here and someone implements it

[ivory kestrel]

kek

[rugged solar]

for subtlty

[ivory kestrel]

just writing here is just way easier

[rugged solar]

and the apl was synced faster/more often during a lot of this

again i don't disagree, it would be better to have the latest apl synced faster

but all it would do is just allow people who build tools on top of simc to get the change faster

[fickle shore]

I mean I think thats only useful for people that arent really here to do tc but more for normies that wanna run their sims on ptr

otherwise its kidna useless

way easier to just pin it

[rugged solar]

so the gain is possibly low to do so

[ivory kestrel]

the normies dont even know about ptr=1

or mimiron

[fickle shore]

well its easy enough to tell normies to sim on mimiron

[rugged solar]

i think for mimiron it would be good

because right now

if you throw sub in mimiron

[fickle shore]

ye rn sub normies cant sim

[rugged solar]

you get a error

[fickle shore]

outlaw normies can

so there is that

[ivory kestrel]

caste diff

[remote sparrow]

I mean, I guess we could make a guide for it, how to do testing, how to read APL, how to share ideas, how to pull, etc.

[mental dirge]

Thats what we want you to think

[remote sparrow]

also adding versioncontrol in general is a good idea ngl