tc-subtlety

[past fable]

Is it the same for dance when you have 2 charges of it

[rugged solar]

oh that seems like a oversight

[past fable]

Explains why second dance point wasnt siming well for dust

[remote sparrow]

I think the 2nd dance point is usually not used with double dust

this was specially true when we had torando

[rugged solar]

@coarse laurel ^

[remote sparrow]

its true even without tornado, like after first dance during blade, u vanish, strike finish and dance is back up

[rugged solar]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qAwdUQkBzFcmaXZjL7hBCY

remains my currently top simming setup

but is, with the bugs txt mentioned probably flawed

[remote sparrow]

1 dust swift sims basically the same for me as your top build

[rugged solar]

oh fair, i excluded swift from the above

[past fable]

You also ran it without ashes

Too many options to include in just one sim

[rugged solar]

true

[past fable]

You excluded tfd too right

[rugged solar]

yes

probably worth it

[remote sparrow]

I think this ones without ashes too

this is with ashes

but also, im pretty sure that branch nis stronger than ashes

like quite a bit stronger

[rugged solar]

you got a changelog

moment, ill throw it in the diff checker

i see, you made quite some changes ^^

[coarse laurel]

Yeah maybe, although I don't think it really makes that big of a difference looking at it. This only affects when you have a charge, which you're out of I think all the time other than in the opener.

It's like less than 1k DPS testing it

[rugged solar]

will take a look tomorrow

[ivory kestrel]

rotten and goremaw have some... things that could be better yea

i have been testing without shadowcraft too but between rotten and goremaw i think you would drop goremaw funnily enough

also because it gets a bit messed up unless you use diff vanish timings

that i will test now

[coarse laurel]

Fixed it and re-ran your sim, doesn't really seem to make much difference at a glance. ER vs. Shadow Dance charge is still negative for SD.

[rugged solar]

that was fast, nice

[coarse laurel]

But maybe something else pops up, idk

[past fable]

You fixed it for tea too i assume ye?

[coarse laurel]

Yes

[rugged solar]

the code looks like its universal

[coarse laurel]

Maybe good enough if you get both charge things at the same time though

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kqf8F6E9QTWLgADq4MHC9x
Seems like +0.5%

[rugged solar]

back to double dance + tea ^^

[coarse laurel]

But ofc this probably will change based on APL stuff anyway, so may need to mess with more stuff either way. Given that it's so close.

I'd probably say giving up Acro is not actually worth 0.5% though

In practice it is probably a larger DPS increase than that

[rugged solar]

i am still surprised that acro remains such a friction point

esp. given that other class trees don't have it as a dps capstone

[coarse laurel]

The reality is the additional AoE range plus downtime reduction is almost certainly worth even more than 1% on average, I would say. 0.5% seems like not nearly enough to drop it in any realistic situation.

That seems like textbook sim-only gain

[rugged solar]

ironically probably harder to gain in m+

because dance gains more value with targets

[rugged solar]

taking acro is 1.7% in dungeon slice

tornado also interesstingly enough is not the play

could be that the tornado lines might need some adjustments

[past fable]

I think the dslice apl/results could become quite different after the set proc chances are changed in simc so i probably wouldnt spend too much time on it rn

[past fable]

Might not be worth it to use it during blades on like 3 targets for example

[rugged solar]

yep thought of restrictions to not use it during blades

but not sure, sim will tell when i test it

[ivory kestrel]

one that may be a fast win for dust/sepsis etc is a not use snd while on blades

the opener would lose snd for like 1 or 2 secs but then after a strike it should be ok(while in blades you fill cp anyway)

then usual rules would prevent it

ah also add a need premed talented to evade kranling on builds that do not use it

[rotund flint]

Hm, you are dropping second dance charge for acro? What's % for single target ?

[ivory kestrel]

if you are not using dust it is catastrophic

because you cant get second dance in blades

[rotund flint]

Ah

[ivory kestrel]

but slice with dust you can look a bit above

[rotund flint]

Having and not having acro is kinda big deal I can tell you after testing every boss this raid

[ivory kestrel]

well

[remote sparrow]

sending flag on cd and forcing blades on it with vanish plays really really unfun.

maybe its me and i cant figure it out yet but this is not fu

n

[ivory kestrel]

that only really happens on minute 1 and then way later tho

[remote sparrow]

not really , the sim is full sending on cd

[ivory kestrel]

ayyy

first i need to unkrangle the sepsis/rotten/goremaw opener etc

then do a fast look at ER because it seems like it might do fine

then when everything is unkranled see what do we drop rotten or gore although i see goremaw a bit weaker

for shadowcraft

[ivory kestrel]

or maybe

depends what is more of a loss

[coarse laurel]

I mean I would argue that Acro is also more valuable in dungeons than bosses as well so idk

10 vs 13 yard radius is a pretty big distinction.. it's a 70% increase to the area of the circle 😛

[ivory kestrel]

i think going CB for slice should be better than dropping 1 dance

it is kinda ok for dust as you get two CB sec techs like on live

for aoe

[fading mica]

@rugged solar using the apl/profile from the pins you can get 6.5% by swapping to swift death from nado
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3Y5hqUw4wMaKD8jYwu3E22
is that worth changing?

[ivory kestrel]

ye koji updated tornado

[fading mica]

[rotund flint]

Just the path to swift

[fading mica]

I love me some shroud zoomies c:

So fun for old raids

Zoom

[ivory kestrel]

for full st it is fine

[remote sparrow]

i legit dont understand why txt's idea in sims is performing as well as it does.

the more I try it, the worst it gets

[ivory kestrel]

ahaha

[coarse laurel]

I mean does it actually give a stack in-game? Given that it's not in the buff whitelist, I'm not sure why it would. Think that's actually a bigger bug/problem to report in terms of it not benefitting though.

[remote sparrow]

yeah it does

[ivory kestrel]

ye they fixed it after some builds in ptr

first 2 builds did not have it give a stack

it also got cd changed so maybe it uses diff ID? not sure on that one

they also fixed ER giving 1 stack of dm

[supple adder]

quick question about Tea in 10.2 sims: is there a profile that uses it only for the mastery buff?

[remote sparrow]

you can just add a line to tea usage like &buff.shaodw_dance.up

to use it only when shadow dance is active

[supple adder]

is this normal?

but why rupt before Flag?

for the snapshot?

2 SS seems fine but isn't it better to flag>finisher ? instead of Flag>build>finisher?

why not strike strike flag rupt?

is it just for the snapshot on rupture?

[ivory kestrel]

strike rupture strike should be better usually

im using that in mine too

and the gamba seems to work even if not finality talented

if you already procced on first one you can gamba again on second dance

for another try at a 66% boyer

might need a big brainer one to try and APL that one in tho im too weak

[supple adder]

you use rupture during dance? does the proc snapshots?

[ivory kestrel]

yes

to not confuse let me make it a bit cleaner

[supple adder]

and else, with finality do you think it would be good to refresh rupture in between the 2 first dances? like maybe a during the subterfuge of your 1st vanish?

[ivory kestrel]

that one i don't know my profiles do not run finality

so i don't bother

[supple adder]

ok

[ivory kestrel]

but you could

the gamba is worth around 2.5 evis

[supple adder]

yeah I dont see why not it seems fine when I imagine it but maybe i'm missing a whole lot of TC and it's late also..

[ivory kestrel]

the one i tried only was strike rupture strike

if it procs not rupture on dance

if it does not rupture in dance

then if it does not proc on that one on the third one is 100%

so you can even rupture later in dance with more DM stacks

[supple adder]

ok but overall is it a gain? like you said it's 2.5 evis but does it proc enough ?

[ivory kestrel]

33 66 100

proc can do from 200k to 800k

so yea

depends also if you have strong trinket ongoing sophic etc

[supple adder]

?? do you mean it is like normalized and will always proc on the 3rd time if it did not proc on 1st and 2nd?

[ivory kestrel]

although it may be worth even to try and gamba twice on ruptures if first one procs

[ivory kestrel]

yes it is entropic

same as sht

[supple adder]

dayum

like

lets abuse that shit then lets go lol

[ivory kestrel]

it is also not as convoluted as it seems

like literally can do what i tried and if it is this strong might be worth to just always gamble

[supple adder]

I thought for a minute you'd be using only rupture and forget about evis since the proc is so strong. But maybe you do?

[ivory kestrel]

nah no way

just once in dance is enough i think

what you can do if you have the 100% ready it might be worth to use it on later finishers in dance for the extra DM power

but uh i will let others break their head im busy enough with sepsis/rotten/goremaw krangles

[supple adder]

and it snapshots in dance? cant remember if I asked. In other words do you advise to use it asap in dance or on the last gcds maybe?

[coarse laurel]

Feels like they fixed it in the most superficial possible way if it doesn't benefit 😛

[supple adder]

yeah it should be too hard to play around, also is it also 33 66 100 for Evis too?

[ivory kestrel]

can we send some letters full of italic red to blizz for their weird fixes?

[ivory kestrel]

nah evis is diff

seems like it goes in increments of 20

so 5 steps always procs on 6th

0-20-40-60-80-100

for bp tho it is the millenium puzzle

[coarse laurel]

Since even if it triggers a stack it means we probably don't want to use it in that window since it's gonna just waste a global that could have been buffed

[ivory kestrel]

well er and goremaw are usable because they hit harder than strike

backstab tho uuh

that one is buried

[supple adder]

what else would you use then?

[ivory kestrel]

just strikes if they did less

but well it has some things that get amped like rupture ticks sepsis etc so it is worth

problem is kinda how to use it after opener and in other dance those are the ones that give me more of a problem

it can become quite labyrinthic because of how cds work with blades being 2 and other cds 45/90

[coarse laurel]

Maybe fine if you use it early idk

[ivory kestrel]

i solved goremaw now i think

[coarse laurel]

They should really just fix it though

[ivory kestrel]

but ER is still kinda ?

[coarse laurel]

There's no reason for it not to benefit

[supple adder]

not sure i'm following, are you talking about Evis 2p procs or something else here?

[ivory kestrel]

yea ER does get benefit from DM and gives 1 stack

it got fixed same as goremaw

[coarse laurel]

ER is in the whitelist

#1 (id=1033245)  : Apply Aura (6) | Add Percent Modifier (108): Spell Direct Amount (0)
                   Base Value: 6 | Scaled Value: 6 | PvP Coefficient: 0.67000 | Target: Self (1)
                   Affected Spells: Backstab (53), Kidney Shot (408), Gouge (1776), Cheap Shot (1833), Rupture (1943), Slice and Dice (5171), Shiv (5938), Quaking Palm (107079), Shuriken Toss (114014), Shadowstrike (185438), Poisoned Knife (185565), Eviscerate (196819), Shuriken Storm (197835), Gloomblade (200758), Secret Technique (280719), Secret Technique (280720), Secret Technique (282449), Slice and Dice (315496), Black Powder (319175), Black Powder (319190), Echoing Reprimand (323547), Echoing Reprimand (323558), Echoing Reprimand (323559), Echoing Reprimand (323560), Eviscerate (328082), Sepsis (328305), Sepsis (328306), Shadowstrike (345121), Echoing Reprimand (354838), Rupture (360826), Sepsis (375936), Sepsis (385408), Echoing Reprimand (385616), Sepsis (394026), Rupture (394031)

[ivory kestrel]

saved

i guess those two ER is one without reverb and one with right?

then one is without either and last one is ??¿¿

guess slands one

[coarse laurel]

Lots of false positives in these whitelists because container spells share family flags

Some of those spell IDs are just buff spells

[ivory kestrel]

mamma mia

i just noticed there are like 4 more

and we wonder how they sometimes krangle spells

[remote sparrow]

@brazen palm i finally got the gameplay flow of what your sim seems to be doing, its quite neat atually, theres a few optimizations we can try for it later! great job!

[rugged solar]

https://www.diffchecker.com/jBswpL5T/

a diff checker for txt's apl

also the sim is pverwriting a spell

override.spell_data=spell.195072.charge_cooldown=8500

[past fable]

Thats fel rush

[rugged solar]

you are fast, i was about to open the spell data

[past fable]

It always procs on the 5th, not the 6th

[rugged solar]

maye it starts with 20

[ivory kestrel]

yea it begins on 0 for finisher 0 then kinda of a phantom number i guess?

but if it cant proc back to back then hmm

[past fable]

#1065728795455266888 message

[ivory kestrel]

let's just say then that there are 6 total floors but you always begin by going to the 1st

[rugged solar]

and it can't be as simple as?

[ivory kestrel]

indeed

[rugged solar]

and for bp

eleems testing showed:

• 33.5% evi
• 23.2% bp

if you scale it down to 1000 iterations

can possibly swing in this range

[ivory kestrel]

guess we are in 14. infinite nine territory then

[supple adder]

Evis proc chance is 0-20-40-60-80-100 but Rupture is 33-66-100 and not 0-33-66-100 right?

[past fable]

Rupture is 33/66/100, the other ones we dont know exactly

[rugged solar]

Apl update ** Latest apl version**
Allow slightly more aggressive thistle tea use with shadowdust.

Change:```ansi
actions.cds+=/thistle_tea,if=(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>=3|buff.symbols_of_death.up)&!buff.thistle_tea.up&(energy.deficit>=(100)&(combo_points.deficit>=2|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3)|(cooldown.thistle_tea.charges_fractional>=(2.75-0.15talent.invigorating_shadowdust.rank&cooldown.vanish.up))&buff.shadow_dance.up&dot.rupture.ticking&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<3)|buff.shadow_dance.remains>=4&!buff.thistle_tea.up&spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3|!buff.thistle_tea.up&fight_remains<=(6cooldown.thistle_tea.charges)

[supple adder]

is there a build/apl that uses Tea exclusively for the mastery buff, out of curiosity?

[rugged solar]

you can adjust the apl to do that

it is not optimal, this is why the apl line is a lot more complex

so if you want to compare it, just need to adjust the apl

but i assume that the majority of uses will be for mastery

but it seems within error range for most builds interesstingly

could be that we can massively simplify the condition on tea

[supple adder]

thanks a lot for your answer and the time you put in it!

[rugged solar]

tbh it would be nice

because the above is a monster of a condition^^

i currently explore txt's idea of more agressive flag use

[supple adder]

I have no idea how the apl works as a whole but i'll try to get into that some day maybe
What i'm wondering is with the idea of more agressive flag use, do you have to reframe the whole apl to have it being included or you just put it there as one of the many options and let the software try combinaisons with classic flag and agressive flag etc ?

[rugged solar]

there is no automation, every change you make is by hand

[supple adder]

because if you want to try Tea for mastery, 'normal' tea, and normal flag and agressive one that's already 4 different builds

[rugged solar]

so you need to check/evaluate and re-write potentially multiple lines

[supple adder]

I see, so a lot of work then

well good luck arranging all that

[rugged solar]

the thing is, what you mean is diffrent things to evaluate

tea use might not change if you alter flag use, but ofc there is potential

but you might understand why apl changes can take a while esp. if they are more complex

[coarse laurel]

I'm just gonna be over here in a corner crying

[eager grotto]

@past fable the 35.27% proc rate on 2nd evisc would have less than 1 in 10mil chance to occur if the real proc rate on 2nd evisc was 25% so I think the data you shared rules that out

assuming my script worked and im understanding what a confidence interval is

[remote sparrow]

dudes out there trying to approximate the maximum likelihood function, solving for the probabilities, just for blizz to rework it next week

[eager grotto]

ahahaha i wanted to smth a) nerdy and b) a huge waste of time on my last day unemployed

and this fell into my lap 😄

[rugged solar]

nice^^

[remote sparrow]

congrats!

[rugged solar]

so the proc chance is 0-30-60-90-100

[remote sparrow]

its not

rupture can proc back to back to back

[past fable]

Hes not looking at rupture

[rugged solar]

we don't talk about rupture

[remote sparrow]

I think my record is like 5 backtoback procs

oh sorry im dumb. just woke up need a coffee first 😄

[coarse laurel]

My question is really why the effective rate target would be different for Black Powder. Given that the damage is fully residual, I'd really expect them to aim for the same rate for all finishers...

[past fable]

My guess is that you'd cast way more black powders on average

[rugged solar]

probably to adjust for power level

[past fable]

So they've reduced its chance of proccing to make it roughly align in power level across all spells

[remote sparrow]

probably to keep the tiersets %power be similar in aoe and ST

[past fable]

Which is probably also why rupture has a higher chance, as youre not casting it very frequently

[remote sparrow]

bp proc does about 4-5% of your damage now after chhanges, slightly less than evis in ST

Im guessing its just to keep i consistant

[eager grotto]

this is 95% confidence intervals on the proc chances at 2nd/3rd/4th evisc

[coarse laurel]

Right but as a percentage is should be the same shouldn't it? I mean, seems odd.

If you adjust downward that just makes the set bonus less impactful in AoE in relative terms

If it was a static value, I could see it but since it's residual doesn't make much sense to me

[past fable]

Well the idea is that its worth X% regardless of wether its on aoe or st

[remote sparrow]

I think thats the goal

[past fable]

I think

[remote sparrow]

they want it to be around the same % in both st and aoe

previously it was like 15% of your damage in aoe and like 6% in st

now its 6 in both

[coarse laurel]

Is it? When I was running 8T sims it was only looking like 4.4% from Shadow Powder and that's even with sims using a 33% proc rate

[remote sparrow]

its hard to tell, for PXB it was like 2% of his damage, when I was hitting 5 dummies it was like 4% bp, 1.5% rupture -> 5.5% ishh

[past fable]

@eager grotto Did you run it on the BP logs yet?

[remote sparrow]

but also 4.4% makes sense, you get a few from rupture (1-2%) , puts it around 6% overall

[coarse laurel]

Yes but that's with sims using a higher proc rate

[eager grotto]

nah gunna grab a drink and stuff then do it

[coarse laurel]

Not 22%

That's 33%

[past fable]

Maybe the proc counters resets out of combat/when you vanish or something

Since pxb's was a m+ run

[rugged solar]

i hope not

[remote sparrow]

I coudl see that!

if u drop combat it goes to 0?

[coarse laurel]

If I take the same profile from Fuu the other day and run in ST I get 3.7% (Evisc)+1.2% (Rupture) for ST and 4.4% (Powder)+0.4% (Rupture)
And that's with them using a universal 33% proc rate

[past fable]

If they dont then you would ideally spend trash building up your rupture and evis chances before raid bosses

[coarse laurel]

For ST vs. 8T

So they seem fairly balanced without a proc rate adjustment to me

[eager grotto]

wasnt this an issue with 1min druid convoke? and then they changed it so that it doesnt reshuffle "deck" during m+

in SL

[coarse laurel]

Lowering the proc rate by a third seems odd

[remote sparrow]

that seems odd because evis is generally higher than that in my own dummy testing

[coarse laurel]

I could probably make sims run BP with the lower average rate for now while you guys continue to work on the ramping reverse engineering

Well, dummy testing will vary due to fewer damage sources most likely, since the profiles have better trinkets in them and such

[past fable]

I will say tho, the rupture parts line up perfectly everytime you look at it and calculate it, so that part is almost surely correct. 1/3, 2/3 and 1
Whereas 35%/57%/91.6%/100% is just bruh

[eager grotto]

keep in mind the data set is pretty small for trying to find the proc rates at each part of the sequence, it doesnt mean its actually 0-12-24-36-50-50-50-100 for BP 😂

no matter how much it looks like it lmao

the first 2 for evi and first 2 for BP should be relatively accurate though, like probably within a few %

i really hope its something more intuitive and the log is just a wild one

[remote sparrow]

Im a little confused how the sim is getting only 4.9% shadow powder at 33%

physical bp is about 26.9, so a simple approximation should be around 26.9 * 0.33 * 0.65 (this build takes all the shadow amps so it comes close to 65% instead of 55 i think), puts it at ~5.79

and if tier was aroun 22% then it woud be around ~3.8%

sectech clones being at 11%, and the tier amping them by 10% means roughly 1% damage from sectech clones, 0.4% from rupture proc, puts the entire 2pc and 4pc to around 5%, idk how to estimate cp values

but yeah one of the tiersets of all time for sure

[past fable]

Yep it definitely seems to reshuffle the deck during m+. I took a random m+ logs of wcl and the red markings are where he casted stealth, ie left combat

[remote sparrow]

why 0.5 and 1.1?

pretty sure db, vt, dd also impacts it

[eager grotto]

oh god ahahaha thats so bad for rupture

[past fable]

VT does not affect it

[remote sparrow]

ah so just dd and db?

[past fable]

for some reason yes

[remote sparrow]

gotta love the amps.

[past fable]

Also none of them apply to rupture

Only evis/bp

[remote sparrow]

i thought dd applied to rupture

[past fable]

DD doesnt seem to work anymore, its seemingly only DB now

[remote sparrow]

https://tenor.com/view/aintnoway-gif-27058877

[past fable]

Its only doing ~60% of the damage, rather than the 65% it was doing a few weeks ago

[remote sparrow]

i have no words tbh

its just so bad

[rugged solar]

12-25-36-50-50-50-100

sounds terrible

[eager grotto]

what is 7ths? 14, 28, 42, 57, 85, 100? given the error margin on the later ones thats still plausible with the log

but then that wouldnt explain why evi is so wild if bp and rupture are calm

[past fable]

0- 12.5 - 25 - 37.5 - 50 - 50 - 50 - 100

[remote sparrow]

what I dont understand is why the first one is 0?

[past fable]

They cant proc back to back

[remote sparrow]

yeah but why

whats wrong with them prccing

[eager grotto]

generous answer is they thought it was too hectic ifit procced twice in a row

[past fable]

Or to prevent outrageous highrolling

[eager grotto]

imagine like 5 b2b shjadow evis in CDs phwoar

[remote sparrow]

thats the thing though

it doesnt do as much as you think

[eager grotto]

oh 😦

what happens if you proc rupture on 2 globals in a row? does it freak out because it tries to have 2 clones at once?

[past fable]

Nah its just different dots

[remote sparrow]

unironcally if rupture was 0/50/100 it woulda been better

maybe idk actually

nvm scratch that

[rugged solar]

sounds like #outlaw gameplay

[supple adder]

does the 2p interact with RS or it just for the main target rupture ?

[rugged solar]

only with the main

[river folio]

Following this thread now, moving my convo of the 2pc proc chance WA here. For reference: https://wago.io/qA8sGnyzk

Updated it again to be even more generalized, so now it is simple to add extra events for the deck shuffling / resetting you were seeing in logs, @past fable .

Right now the pertinent things to update are modularized into this set of values

aura_env.spInfo = {
    [ 1943 ] = {
        icon = 132302,
        proc = { init = ( 1 / 3 ), casts = 3 },
    },
    [ 196819 ] = {
        icon = 132292,
        proc = { init = 0, casts = 5 },
    },
    [ 319175 ] = {
        icon = 608955,
        proc = { init = 0, casts = 8 },
    },
}

And passed into this function when a cast or proc is detected.

aura_env.CalcProcChance = function( casts, init, castsTill )
    local addedChance = 1 / castsTill
    if aura_env.config.procChanceCap then
        return math.min( init + ( casts * addedChance ), 1 )
    else
        return init + ( casts * addedChance )
    end
end```

Either of these two can be modified and the rest of the aura will function all the same. Additionally more trigger events can be added to the Trigger page, and added to the event function table to call into various functions for resetting the deck for all or any specific ability, based on whatever you all find from testing.

This currently is assuming a linear scaling of proc chance, but it may not linearly scale, in which case the two sections can be rewritten into more of a hard-coded lookup based on cast number per spell.

I'll be watching this thread to learn what you all find out

[rugged solar]

oh, interessting

maybe there is a possibility to wave in bs/storm for stacks

during blades only ofc

[remote sparrow]

could be, backstab is like 2k-2.5k stronger than storm.

if ones worth it, maybe the other ones worth it too

[ivory kestrel]

goremaw and ER kinda have same effect surprisingly buffing things like sec tech/later evis ramping sepsis dmg etc have some good value

[supple adder]

if you dont play TFD maybe you can modify the apl to start dances with 4+cps to emulate it?

[rugged solar]

apl update first iteration of flagellation/shb related changes.
(needs more work, there is still a noticeable gain to be had for some builds)

[turbid pulsar]

can u highlight the changes for me

[rugged solar]

oh sure

but there will be probably a new iteration soon-ish

[turbid pulsar]

no rush

[rugged solar]

The first change is partly just a re-ordering and adding a condition to use flag if blades is not up

actions.cds+=/flagellation,target_if=max:target.time_to_die,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>10&((!equipped.ashes_of_the_embersoul|trinket.ashes_of_the_embersoul.cooldown.remains<=8)&(cooldown.shadow_blades.remains<=3|cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=14)|fight_remains<=24)

The second change is to allow shadow blades to be casted during the mastery buff of flag```ansi
actions.cds+=/shadow_blades,if=variable.snd_condition&(combo_points<=1|set_bonus.tier31_4pc)&(buff.flagellation_buff.up|buff.flagellation_persist.up|!talent.flagellation)

the change is a gain for all talent combinations over the previouse one

but it is probably obviouse that the above is not always ideal and i have noticable better results for some specific talent combinations

with more spezialised conditions

just need more time to isolate the changes and put it together in one coherent one

[remote sparrow]

I could be wrong but when I tested it,.it was very time dependant as well, like on a 7 minutes sim, it seemed to be a loss for some builds

[rugged solar]

the change?

but yes, possible

dust is complex, and getting additional casts can be very valuable

[remote sparrow]

Yeo, the flag change!

There are also a few things to optimize that I couldn't. For example, the 1 minute flag, it vanishes way too late and ends up wasting all of blades

I tried getting it to vanish earlier there as soon as it casted sectech but it wouldn't

[rugged solar]

5 minutes
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pzu4T65fhxRU5TFfqu9wys

7 minutes
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jk58MZD1ZLWygaYCqtYhNx

thats non dust, moment lets check dust

5 minutes
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4zM47KdtcTBkZaWAtBoS8X

7 minutes
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rjstgR51abrG1mXyyDCEh4

not seeing a degration/loss with the changes i put in atm

ofc can be more timing sensitive

[remote sparrow]

I'll see if I can replicate it!

But yeah seems like a generally good change for straight burn bosses like rashok or magmorax

[rugged solar]

just to highlight how much more damage there is with certain talent combos

this is relative gain from the condition i put

would be relative to the old apl line

this should be around the mark txt's changes should be at

but it will change depending on talent setup

so it isn't the same significance, the change i put also was a gain with all talent combos i tested

[remote sparrow]

thats quite good!

what was the change if you dont mind me asking

[rugged solar]

i don't remember exatcly, would need to look up

i started with isolated testing with test 1, test 2, ....

then after i got the initial change i started with

x, y, z

after that with a, b, c, ....

i am now at m

so quite a lot of changes, i think j was mostly reoving/minimizing the condition

so only one sub part of it would apply

[remote sparrow]

I see makes sense!

[rugged solar]

should be this as flag condition:

actions.cds+=/flagellation,target_if=max:target.time_to_die,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>10&((!equipped.ashes_of_the_embersoul|trinket.ashes_of_the_embersoul.cooldown.remains<=8|fight_remains<=24)|(cooldown.shadow_blades.remains<=3))```

[remote sparrow]

this is what im talking about btw. this flag at 1:02

it casts sectech at 1:05 but doenst vanish until 1:15

sorry

i meant blades

it coulda vanish blades'd at 1:05 to overlap blades and flag for all of blades duration here.

[rugged solar]

tbh what you showed seems good

because the mastery is the important part of flag

and you have ~12 seconds between flag cast and shadow blades

so basically move into the mastery buff with your cooldowns

what does not seem too bad

[remote sparrow]

I was thinking why not blades earlier so that all 20 seconds of blades is covered by the flag mastery buff. because even while youre ramping the mastery, youre still getting stacks no?

[rugged solar]

sure

[remote sparrow]

so like from 1:05 -1:15 youre still gaining stacks, and can use those. but what the sim does ends up that, flag mastery buff ends at 1:22, exactly after first dance it sends

although whats interesting here is this

it sends another dance at 1:28. blades lasts until 1:35 so its gonna cover almost all of this dance.

so blades covers 2 dances with 1 dance being also covered by flag.

flag covers 2 dances, with 1 dance being also covered by blades

idk which ones better, above, or having 2 dances covered by both blades and flag

oh and last thing that seems weird to me is how low impact blades seems.
here, the sim sends a flag without blades at 2 minutes. vanishes after first dance, and dances again. the peak here is around 300k

but then at 3 mnutes, the sim has blades again, similar as 2 min but now it has flag synced with flag.

and the peak is 340

seems quite low idk

[remote sparrow]

Yeah I did think about subterfuge too. I just wasnt sure which one would be worth more.

btw just wanted to see blades power

and uh

flag seems stronger as a cooldown than blades I think

this above is flag, with peaks being around 240k

and this is no blades. with flag peaks around 280k. it runs out of vanishes eventually since its spamming it every 1 minute so it starts to dip a little bit even the lower peaks are now the same as blades only peaks

[ivory kestrel]

didnt check but is not refreshing snd inside blades inside?

[rugged solar]

thats a good idea

possible that a early refresh would beneficial

[mystic sequoia]

I love how the player straight up dies after ~6 min with that setup. Taking net loss of 2.8k hps/s

[ivory kestrel]

also after raid i will put some things but i will need a bit of help to APL them fast recap is: getting rupture on first 3 abilities on opener goremaw sepsisi with PV/SoD rotten if possible

will help with some logs too

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4Kwnbt4H1DJg3p7rAcpoTk

[eager grotto]

@past fable @remote sparrow

[rugged solar]

highlight of the highest improve, a lot of combos will be lower

[eager grotto]

i feel like i wanna delete this spreadsheet because of how 4 has fewer procs then 3 and also fewer than 5 on your giant log lmao

[river folio]

very strange pattern indeed.

Unless there's some other weird reset event happening, like some global ticker or some external buff that resets it

[remote sparrow]

yeah this looks really odd.

[rugged solar]

i think the probelm rly is sample size

[remote sparrow]

but it was like 5000 casts of bp

thts surely good enough

[rugged solar]

probability to reach e.g. 8 or 9 is very low

so you don't have enough data to aggregate

[river folio]

Well but you have to look at each column independently

[remote sparrow]

fuu this sample is from 5000 casts of bp

[coarse laurel]

Not a great amount of samples at the higher counts is more the issue for determining the pattern. Overall rate is probably fine.

[river folio]

the casts of 4 are only 670, so sample size at 4 is only 670

[eager grotto]

yeah but 4 and 5 is wild fuu

thats pretty big samples

95% confidence interval puts 4 at <31% and 5 at >41% proc chances

[remote sparrow]

yeah the sample size is fine.

[eager grotto]

(for the smaller sequences)

it is definitely too small at the end

[river folio]

And I mean this is what I was saying in the other channel

It could be possible to go up to 10

we just don't know because we've only had 3 chances at 9

[rugged solar]

APL UpdateDust iteration:
Damage gain between 1-2% on good setups, worse case neutral change.

Modified/changed line:```ansi
actions.cds+=/flagellation,target_if=max:target.time_to_die,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>10&((!equipped.ashes_of_the_embersoul|trinket.ashes_of_the_embersoul.cooldown.remains<=8)&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains<=3|fight_remains<=28|cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=14&talent.invigorating_shadowdust&talent.shadow_dance)

[remote sparrow]

eh, i mean thats how likelihood methods work. if you do something 1000 times. and you only witness an event once, then the likelihood is 1 in 1000. ofcourse its a little different here, but the idea is the same

[eager grotto]

oh im dumb i can combine them just by adding up the two datasets in the sheet

[river folio]

Yeah no reason you couldn't unless the data collection method was different

[rugged solar]

what koji mentioned

[coarse laurel]

I mean it's an error of ~5.5% at 6 casts and ~8.5% at 7 casts so given that's significantly higher than the observed differences between them, it makes establishing the per-cast pattern pretty difficult

[river folio]

Like, if your 1k BPs didn't account for the proc delay whereas txt's did, you wouldn't want to combine them.

[eager grotto]

they both take the delay into account

i did some playing around to find the most reliable way to do it, no guarantees its perfect though

[remote sparrow]

fair enough

[eager grotto]

but i couldnt manually spot any errors

[river folio]

So.... back to the mines with generating data? This just becomes our hobby for the next 3 weeks is sitting on the target dummies for hours on end

[coarse laurel]

It's only 4% error at the 5th cast point and 3.3% at 4th cast so those are fine

[eager grotto]

yeah up to 5 looks good enough to make some judgements on

not to get exact proc rates ofc

but to discuss

[coarse laurel]

It's a strange pattern regardless though

[rugged solar]

maybe its not as strange

[eager grotto]

looking at the error margins its almost impossible that its lying about the weird 3->4->5 pattern

[mystic sequoia]

How was the data gathered?

[rugged solar]

maybe its just steps
12.5 - 25 - 25 - 50 - 50- 50 - 75 - 100

[eager grotto]

txt smashed a target dummy

[river folio]

Could be

[coarse laurel]

I'd imagine it's something like 10/25/30/50/60/?

[past fable]

Theyre probably gonna change it and make all of it redundant anyway

[rugged solar]

MAYBE EVEN THAT

sry, caps

[mystic sequoia]

Any chance it dropped combat, or there was some extra delay between finishers or so?

[coarse laurel]

Still odd but yeah

[river folio]

[eager grotto]

not sure cause manually checking exactly what happpened in the log would ouch

[mystic sequoia]

Afaik, no logs I've checked had it on the first event, so there's likely something that resets it

[coarse laurel]

But something like this is possible too, it's hard to say

[remote sparrow]

we think the chance of first event is 0

[eager grotto]

someone could (or I could after dinner) get script to check if there was any long gaps in the log but I think its continuous smashing pretty much

[rugged solar]

for the sequence

[river folio]

There's no combat log event I know of for dropping combat? Only PLAYER_REGEN_ENABLED but that's a separate event, not sure that would show in logs or not?

[past fable]

He has the first attempt as 0 on all of em (thats why they start with a 2). I dont think theres anything that resets the sequence when hitting dummies. In m+ there seems to a lot of things resetting it though

[eager grotto]

no they start with 2 cause theres no 1s

but i think we mean the same thing

[mystic sequoia]

Well dummies are.. a bit odd at times when it comes to combat

[past fable]

Dropping combat on dummies doesnt reset it

Nor does vanish

Nor does dying

[river folio]

Does removing the tier set reset it?

[rugged solar]

took me way to long to work out these lines

[eager grotto]

it also did 1 evisc and id love to know why 😂

spoopy evisc

[mystic sequoia]

I guess cp spent shouldn't have an effect, since the bonus scales with finisher damage and finisher damage scales linearly with cp spent.

[eager grotto]

id be very surprised yeah, theres no tuning reason it needs to care about combo points

and rupture doesnt

[river folio]

If it's confirmed that rupture's CP doesn't impact the proc chance, then I wouldn't think the CP spent would influence it

But if that's not confirmed about rupture... there's no reason otherwise that CP couldn't impact it...

[rugged solar]

seems fine, but also not a damage win

[ivory kestrel]

it is to avoid the krangle i've seen in some sims will check later

[rugged solar]

it basically did not matter, so if you want to skip snd during shb, seems fine

[remote sparrow]

this is what I got so far with yuor line added in fuu

[rugged solar]

early refreshes for snd also didn't seem worth it on a quick look

[rugged solar]

yes, probably better to completely re-visit at some point

instead of putting multiplieres

[past fable]

actions+=/call_action_list,name=finish,if=combo_points.deficit<=1+buff.the_rotten.up|fight_remains<=1&variable.effective_combo_points>=3
This line is also some remnant of a past APL isnt it? Im not even sure what its supposed to do

[rugged solar]

oh yes

probably can just be removed

[past fable]

I assume you checked the 1 dust setup for those flag lines fuu? And they showed up as positive/neutral?

Because now the CD usage of the 1 dust setup looks kinda horrid, it uses flag at 1:17 and only get like 15-20 stacks on it, then it blades at the like 3 last seconds of it

[rugged solar]

moment, let me check

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e9WPx6sJJN4tx5DPJutTre

is one of the 1 dust setups

but feel free to try others

[past fable]

Nah im not saying youre wrong, but it looks kinda horrible to use it and not even be close to getting max stacks

So theres probably some more stuff to do with the APL

[remote sparrow]

it does, it plays very unintuitivaely

specially with 1 dance

[rugged solar]

i didn't specifically test a lot of one dance builds

[remote sparrow]

2 dance makes sense

sorry meant 1 dust

[past fable]

[rugged solar]

moment, let me check sth

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/sz9nRw3kRjZSTSfJRo1mwg

at least for this dust setup, it wasn't a loss

but feel free to plug your own talent setup and report any finding

one dust could have some edge cases

[past fable]

No im not saying youve done anything wrong

But like, sending a flag with 4 finisher in it total (across the entire 24 seconds) to get an extra use across the fight

Is surely not worth it

[ivory kestrel]

it can be quite krangled

[remote sparrow]

its just because dance isnt too strong

but flag is somehow

as long as u cna get extra Sectech + flag casts its probably good

[ivory kestrel]

you can also likely save a dance somewhat

we have to delve deeper

[past fable]

Just napkin math getting a single flag during blades should be significantly better than 2x of those 14 stack ones because you use way more finishers in the blades one. So im a bit baffled as to why its showing it as a gain

Except for rupture ticking damage i guess

Ill look more into it tomorrow

[remote sparrow]

are these 14 stacks only for 1 dust builds?

[past fable]

Yes

The 2 dust plays like expected

[remote sparrow]

ah makes sense. ill try it out lter today to see if i can replicate ti

[coarse laurel]

When I looked at those reports, I really didn't see this wrt a reduction in hitting the max.

'

"new" one seems to just have higher stack persist uptime in general even of max stack

[remote sparrow]

Tornado seems to be a win over VT on 5+ target. but a loss on lower. I tried adjusting it for only tornado during blades if targets >=6 but wasnt really a gain in dslice

[past fable]

Ye it seems like the one i was looking at specifically was kinda unlucky. The entire point of the 1 dust setup was to play it like you'd play a non-dust version except you get 2x symbols during your blades burst and now when it just desyncs it like this its effectively just a worse version of 2x dust since that setups has things syncing together significantly better. I was seeing roughly a ~0.9% loss with the new APL with ashes equipped, but that was mostly because it was missing an entire use of the trinket (since the times where you cooldowns line up didnt happen as often the trinket just wasnt being used) and if i changed ashes back to something simple like just use it during dance it was about the same as the old apl, despite it missaligning pretty much everything

[supple adder]

quick question: do the new apls try to delay dance to wait for Sectec cd to come back up?

[rugged solar]

in part yes

[coarse laurel]

The low-end of Flag CP is lower, I did notice

But the high-end is also higher

Which is interesting

So the average ends up being a fair bit higher, but the low rolls are definitely lower

The range of min/max Flag CP even in the baseline is kinda shockingly huge lol

[past fable]

It gets more uses out, so it makes sense that the uptime is higher on most things

[rugged solar]

update Danse Macabre optimizations:

• Gloomblade/Backstab during Dance for DM stacks (with blades)
• Storm optimizations
• Strike optimizations

Modified/changed lines:```ansi
...
actions.stealthed+=/backstab,if=buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3&buff.shadow_blades.up&!used_for_danse&talent.danse_macabre&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=3&!talent.the_rotten
actions.stealthed+=/gloomblade,if=buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3&buff.shadow_blades.up&!used_for_danse&talent.danse_macabre&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=4
actions.stealthed+=/shadowstrike,if=stealthed.sepsis&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<4|!used_for_danse&buff.shadow_blades.up
actions.stealthed+=/shuriken_storm,if=!buff.premeditation.up&spell_targets>=4-(!used_for_danse&talent.danse_macabre)
...

New apl attached.

100% not cherry picked sim to show impact.
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oXMsq1kw8Aiz7YjoE8sdgK

Dps increase on ST is mild and will depend on the talent setup.
Expected impact somewhere in the 0.x% range

[rugged solar]

possibly something like:

- actions.cds+=/flagellation,target_if=max:target.time_to_die,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>10&((!equipped.ashes_of_the_embersoul|trinket.ashes_of_the_embersoul.cooldown.remains<=8)&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains<=3|fight_remains<=28|cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=14&talent.invigorating_shadowdust&talent.shadow_dance)
+ actions.cds+=/flagellation,target_if=max:target.time_to_die,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>10&((!equipped.ashes_of_the_embersoul|trinket.ashes_of_the_embersoul.cooldown.remains<=8|talent.invigorating_shadowdust.stack=1)&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains<=3|fight_remains<=28|cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=14&talent.invigorating_shadowdust&talent.shadow_dance)
```could work.

btw. just to get feedback, is the highlight helpful or is a diff like the one above this post prefered.
I personally like the idea of the highlight as i can mark the specific change.

[past fable]

Highlight imo

[rugged solar]

this change is also optimized for non danse, i like to pretend that we can skip the talent node

[past fable]

Maybe we should shift it into a "trinket variable" or something instead since if theres other trinkets that alter the use-case of flag (branch/mirror?) then the line is gonna get real clogged up with text that "doesnt matter"

Cant test for branch yet as it isnt in simc, but jsut a thought

[rugged solar]

think thats a good idea

[sonic cave]

probably not worth since the other capstones are so weak, but have there been any thoughts/apls done with no DM?

[remote sparrow]

It was like a 11-12% loss last time I tried

[sonic cave]

hmm sad. okay just wanted to ask. kind of figured as much

i guess DM is our crackshot

[rugged solar]

as mentioned, the lines i added/changed have conditions to work without dm correctly too

so there is no loss from apl changes that only consider dm

[fading mica]

where can i read about the !used_for_danse variable? not seeing it initialized in the apl

[rugged solar]

its not a variable

it is a function that checks if the ability was used to generate a DM stack

it will be fulfilled once it created a DM stack

[fading mica]

pretty sick, most of the tools dont seem to be smart enough to self reference like that

very cool

[rugged solar]

i asked koji to add it to allow more control over DM stacks in beta

he did back then, and it hunts the apl ever since ^^

[fading mica]

im sure it's proved its worth many times

[ivory kestrel]

what is the variable to check for at least 1 dm stack on the stack count?

[fading mica]

buff.danse_macabre.stacks>=1 ?

[rugged solar]

that or just

buff.shadow_dance.up

because you start on one stack

[fading mica]

there's always a more elegant idea, and it's always fuu's

[rugged solar]

haha not always

i did handle all stacks with

buff.danse_macabre.stack>=X```before we had the new condition

the condition just gave a lot more fine control

(my point is, you can even without it play fairly well around stacks)

[fading mica]

couldn't find a situation where it mattered, but changing
actions.stealthed+=/backstab,if=buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3&buff.shadow_blades.up&!used_for_danse&talent.danse_macabre&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=3&!talent.the_rotten!buff.the_rotten.up
is at least even for rotten builds, and maybe there's a world where you'd wanna press backstab for another reason with rotten builds in dance, so might be worth changing /shrug

[rugged solar]

its within error range

also it starts to become a damage loss quick

[fading mica]

ye ik

when does it become a loss?

[rugged solar]

change the sim to two targets

or change talents, a lot of combinations with bs + dm are a loss

[fading mica]

0.3% gain on 2 target

[rugged solar]

i did try it but it wasn't a gain after the other changes

[past fable]

&(buff.perforated_veins.up|!talent.perforated_veins)
Appended at the end of the sepsis line, theres almost surely more things to look into here as its currently wasting dust cdr on sepsis for it but i didnt find any clear way of solving that yet. Theres probably some more you could do with PV in general and casting shuriken storms to allow it to hit better spells (like goremaw/sepsis/er) but for now this is what ive found.

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qX4q1USL1JSEbtVQDEiSFN
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6U3ZkSZyNYk49yNQ3A74Fs

[fading mica]

ye idk, 1 target: https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6V4dgTEueuxNfbMCKgeRSU has it even with these random talent choices (not sure which talents you were referring to fuu) and 2 target: https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6e4PTZ1BCWdfPfGMC9ZWnn is similar but with an actual gain for the base build in the pins

[ivory kestrel]

yea in my tests hitting sepsis+goremaw worked the best

with rotten

[rugged solar]

did test it again

seems like some other change (possible strike) did fix the issues i saw in the isolated test

so you are correct, can be changed to butt.the_rotten.up

[fading mica]

hehe u said butt

[rugged solar]

oh lol

buff*

[rugged solar]

as its currently wasting dust cdr on sepsis for it
wdym

[past fable]

It doesnt sepsis until ~25 seconds in

After its already done a vanish with dust

[ivory kestrel]

dayum that is a weird one yea

[past fable]

Its not weird, if i wanted it to use it before you'd need to cast 4 backstabs before bursting, which seems kinda terrible

But ye, idk maybe worth it

[fading mica]

at some point, sending it without pv would just be worth getting it on cd no?

idk if you tested that

[past fable]

Doesnt seem worth it

[fading mica]

sure doesnt

[ivory kestrel]

only on opener you would ever send sepsis without PV

[fading mica]

that is what i was thinking

[past fable]

But yes, i did try the most obvious solution before posting

[fading mica]

in a world where you play GB, Rotten, And PV, it seems like you should only gloom in dance while avoiding consuming pv and rotten, tiny difference for a wack build tho lol

[ivory kestrel]

i dont think you play GB

swift death is better

[fading mica]

hence the "wack build"

but i was messing with bs logic, so i figured might as well

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3sT5ryDwXaWDQRmetP13zj
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6jgetedCuVwsFjCFR4JKUe
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/uG234fu3T644VVS8UU57Qs
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bmWhTZyRn9P1BirypdqCm3
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4cbQXkeA8SUrSK6v14cJZk
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/meBnKQ4qfo71MgAbcqr1tZ
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fqeynmhh61LJ2f8zRVWWjp
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/f7QZvdaJXKzbtaQh64s7Pg
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/avqyXhE824Ykwb6innSZhA
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wVw3FPhCtLBWT9Vf9pMTpT
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1rM9rMhpY1MmrmvthsyjmG
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eaADmESh3zuxvTYXG8ZtPs
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tk6NsnL1dzYqCHAnTkcEBk

the finisher change with a lot of profiles, it is not always a loss. 1-2 profiles have it as a marginal gain

but some are

this talent combo

lets see if thats suefficient

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c3PEvpDEDM7HnPNHdDTRj3
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ub5B1kbFxpY3KxdCE2bWYV
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vLcA1Z5uwJDLrfMYiby7Cd
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tTgXDg9bcnhf4rNDWNfgk7
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/p3wbiuNN8eUsfcUdWgeyeC
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wDJrNTZ1NKUKXusoJYJtKG
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cP8mYx1WTdWD6qgKDMwEXo
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c78sQqoepfAUdf6PcyU6Z6
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4uhrDS4kHifviBnwJdPDdJ
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1w8JbzRBK3eZXWW2vjarh9
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jv8vCGKUQj6GBi8LM44aez
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/jSuGJC6hEsggAgaFy4LY9E
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/wXZB6FDqMH7a15QsVzat1c
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mmajV7T1jDHWoA2w9bk9ZY

still a loss in the highlighted sim

i didn't look too much into it, so maybe if you look a bit closer to what its doing you find sth

possible

the change seems fairly low in impact in general

but its an interessting area to explore

i do like the idea to be more dynamic with secret use

that seems wrong for sure

[rugged solar]

quick tested 2-3 ideas but the simple one you put seems good to go

[remote sparrow]

How about adding a rotten condition to sepsis as well. So only sepsis with pv and rotten up

[rugged solar]

nope

i have a line that beats eleems change, but thats with more targets

something he likely didn't explore

[past fable]

Ye couldnt get anything with rotten to be worthwhile

I didnt check multiple targets no

[fading mica]

in case you were wondering, (ignore the second profile, i was testing only a rotten build) still a loss when only increasing dm requirement during blades, where rotten builds can press backstab within margin

this is what the two dances in blades ended up looking like, in the opener*

[rugged solar]

currently investigating in vanish

maybe fixing vanish will make the losses dissapear

or the condition needs to be smarter

[fading mica]

seems like it also leads to some dances having multiple evis's before the sectec, so you're losing damage from not having the sectec dm stack for the second evis (as opposed to going evis-sectec-evis)

that sounds like a 11/10 tier headache LOL

[rugged solar]

didn't see 6k gains, but at least some

test 4 is a complete failure

[remote sparrow]

What does each test correspond to?

[rugged solar]

the baseline

it is just changes to vanish

to have a more agressive use

[rugged solar]

tests are growing ^^

i only have a list of talents that i used for testing, tho i am sure most combos are outdated and likely won't end up as the final choice

e.g. talent combinations with shuriken tornado on st

[rugged solar]

Just to state this, it is typically better for testing to have a mix of talent combos to cover a wider range

[river folio]

Any further development in the BP proc chance? About to do some misc weakauras updates, probably going to update the tier WA to do a bucketing of cast rather than linear scaling, only for BP, keeping the linear scaling for rup / evis

[rugged solar]

still no idea what the actual proc rates are

[river folio]

Also realizing my current logic will also count shadowcraft fills as procs

There's no way to differentiate a shadow craft 7 point fill, and a proc + 5 point shadowcraft fill by CP alone, they look identical, so have to take contextual info (sht stacks, or energize events (which shadow techniques does do, thankfully)) into account

back to the mines...

[rugged solar]

haven't had as much time as i wish today for sims, but running at least some experiments before raid

[rugged solar]

highlight

still only vanish changes

[rugged solar]

good reaction

i actually need to integrate the sepsis change from eleem

and see if it changes the result

(tomorrow tho, as i am in raid now)

[river folio]

Question if anyone has seen it in logs, does a Rupture/Evis cast being parried/missed somehow increment the deck stack?

Right now I'm assuming they don't

but realized I have to account for misses because they could lead to false positive procs on CP refunds

(Also does anyone know of any target dummies that can parry I can test against?)

[ivory kestrel]

the raid one should parry in front

[sterile pilot]

i dunno if i am doing it correctly but following build seems to be simming highest for me BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLJJlERSKNHQICRSSSISJSSSrlkIJJAKRAAAAIBB

i just cooked the build with what i like - 1dust and sepsis

[ivory kestrel]

yea sepsis is not bad but also other things still need looking into

[remote sparrow]

doesnt seem like it for me

[ivory kestrel]

and tbh if you go no vigor i think ER is better

[sterile pilot]

man, i must be doing something horribly wrong with the sims then

[balmy linden]

Also replicating is almost going to be bis I think when sims are updated reflecting changes. Rupture is smacking

[ivory kestrel]

yea chances are even in dust i would change PE to replicating if it stays like this

[supple adder]

maybe it has been asked but did anyone try linking the proc chance to the number of target hit? like for example 1 target = 5%, on a 5 target pack the proc chance would be 0-25-50-75-100

[river folio]

No idea, i'm still trying to find someone on ptr to dodge/ parry me but every war / rogue I whisper says "no" or doesn't respond

Raider's target dummy doesn't seem to parry me at all

[supple adder]

I see, if you happen to an other session on the aoe dummy stack tell me if it changed significantly

[supple adder]

why do you want to be parried?

[river folio]

I want to know A) the exact pattern of Spell cast, spell miss events, and how those relate to Energize events or CP when used with a finisher (i.e. parry refunding CP) and B) does a parry / dodge count towards stacking the deck and incrementing the proc chance. I assume B is no but... you never know with this stuff

I just wish I had a training dummy that would parry me reliably

Or.. at all

[supple adder]

well I think getting parried still gives you Finality buffs so as you said you never know

[ivory kestrel]

if you have another account you can log in with some warriors and have them pop die by the sword

that is what i did when i had to test sometimes things

and of course rogues for dodge

outlaw works too for parry i think tho

[river folio]

I don't have multiple accounts

[supple adder]

I'd like to help you but I'm battered for today and I cant make any promises for this week, sry

[river folio]

Nah no worries

Having a player do it is also just less reliable than a dummy because idn how long I'd need to test, to reliably get enough data for B above may take a lot of RNG to figure out

A) is easier to get, just a few tries

[river folio]

I was able to get the Parry data I needed for incorporating misses. However, was not able to test if misses stack the deck or not.

Either way, I updated the weakaura to handle misses and also incorporate the Step-based logic based on the most recent data. I have a toggle option to swap back to the linear scaling behavior for now. I just picked numbers that mostly aligned with the research data, for now it isn't set in stone anyways, but I wanted to get the structure written and the values can be updated later.

[rugged solar]

apl update Higlights:

• Aligning sepsis to PV is a gain (credits to eleem for the change) -- there are potential more optimizations for multi target in the condition.
• Improvements to Vanish use for shadow dust.
• small correction to Backstab in Shadow Dance for DM stacks.

Line changes:```ansi
...
actions.stealthed+=/backstab,if=buff.shadow_dance.remains>=3&buff.shadow_blades.up&!used_for_danse&talent.danse_macabre&spell_targets.shuriken_storm<=3&!buff.the_rotten.up
...
actions.cds+=/sepsis,if=variable.snd_condition&target.time_to_die>=16&(buff.perforated_veins.up|!talent.perforated_veins)
...
actions.stealth_cds+=/vanish,if=(combo_points.deficit>1|buff.shadow_blades.up&talent.invigorating_shadowdust)&!variable.shd_threshold&(cooldown.flagellation.remains>=60|!talent.flagellation|fight_remains<=(30*cooldown.vanish.charges))&(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>3|!set_bonus.tier30_2pc)&(cooldown.secret_technique.remains>=10|!talent.secret_technique|cooldown.vanish.charges>=2&talent.invigorating_shadowdust&(buff.the_rotten.up|!talent.the_rotten))
...

New apl attached.

cherry picked highlight of the dust change:
sim

and yes, i ended up with a lot of test cases ^^ 20+

will end up for most talent combos below the above point

0.4-0.9% for most, a lot of neutral (within error range) combos

tested with ~16 diffrent talnt combos

so hope i haven't missed anything

[rugged solar]

update Small fix for dungeon slice

actions.stealth_cds+=/vanish,if=(combo_points.deficit>1|buff.shadow_blades.up&talent.invigorating_shadowdust)&!variable.shd_threshold&(cooldown.flagellation.remains>=60|!talent.flagellation|fight_remains<=(30*cooldown.vanish.charges))&(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>3|!set_bonus.tier30_2pc)&(cooldown.secret_technique.remains>=10|!talent.secret_technique|cooldown.vanish.charges>=2&talent.invigorating_shadowdust&(buff.the_rotten.up|!talent.the_rotten)&!raid_event.adds.up)

[rugged solar]

subtlety = pre fix
old = pre change
test = with fix
sim

[past fable]

Updated some gear with embellishments that arent boots+toxic (and updated the crafted gear to be 486 instead of 483). I simmed with 50% blue silken lining uptime and it was roughly the same as shadowflame so i decided to include that instead of linen as the uptime is rather varied across bosses (probably gonna be above 50% uptime though, especially during blades but ). So embellishments are sporecloak+shadowflame. Im assuming theyll do another tuning pass for embellishments but who knows

[rugged solar]

oh nice

also thanks for reminding me that i need to updat the gear list in #tc-research

[fading mica]

that vanish line is insane, thanks for all the effort put into that holy moly

[ivory kestrel]

god bless excel eh

[fading mica]

:3

[rugged solar]

is fairly easy with a text editor

you can just search and replace

[ivory kestrel]

it is literally what i did yes

[ivory kestrel]

that is a wao

[rugged solar]

good finds

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/tFwiu1j9KCKQxHhf7seBsK

there you go @ivory kestrel

0.1% dps

[ivory kestrel]

lul let me check if at least it didnt krangle it somewhat

[rugged solar]

na, it didn't

let me show you the change

[ivory kestrel]

ah still krangled now it got used second global ahaha

[rugged solar]

actions.cds+=/goremaws_bite,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=3

[ivory kestrel]

well a beginning to greatness

[rugged solar]

when would you want to use it?

but this change is good

[ivory kestrel]

first or second global in dance so it gets the rotten buff from before man ptr is down

[rugged solar]

because it makes no sense to waste your initial stealth attack like this

[ivory kestrel]

but you kinda want to do strike rupture blades sod sepsis flag Dance+finisher(idk if rupture or evis, rupture may be a thing with the tier thingy)

[rugged solar]

the above removes it

[ivory kestrel]

then goremaw

[past fable]

Tornado doesnt give a dm stack ingame either does it?

[ivory kestrel]

but yea we take that 0,1%

[past fable]

Unless it was changed recently

[rugged solar]

so its strike-gmb

[ivory kestrel]

yea but ideally you want it on dance and rotten value

same reason as changing sepsis so it is used third global

[past fable]

And ye nado didnt consume rotten until this week

[ivory kestrel]

might need a condition like fight < 20 secs

and not check for PV on that occasion

[past fable]

Either way good finds

[ivory kestrel]

and stealthed too so it gets NS snap kinda?

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eher68o2fyJ4F766BXgVQ3

this should use gwb better

but is a loss

[past fable]

Ye it does more damage, but it also uses it 7.3 times instead of 9.5

[rugged solar]

but maybe, lets try the later secret change

[ivory kestrel]

yea goremaw is also used sometimes a bit diff

but that is a beginning

[past fable]

For the most part though anything i tried that delayed goremaw didnt show up as a gain becuase the cd is so short

[ivory kestrel]

yea i will check it more so it does not get krangled

in my tests i used it almost at cd too but with good amps

it did around 6-7% dmg

but actually am i blind i don't see the change

oh wait found it

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/e7CBLandGdiUQ7rxQhHqdC

interessting

i assumed the gwb in dance would make a gain not a loss

with secret as a later finisher

[ivory kestrel]

i will check later uses in a sec

i think it may krangle with vanish timings

ok second use got krangled

also it for some reason vanished evis

then the second dance did not have goremaw

i think i know why one of the conditions was premed up

might want to change it to DM 1-2 stack

how can we try that?

because sometimes you dance finish

[past fable]

Goremaw isnt up until 19

[rugged solar]

let me

[ivory kestrel]

that is weird let me see

checking a past log in a sec

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/rhRDcjXPaAJ6BkW7#fight=1&type=casts&source=1&view=timeline

sim vanishes at 11

[rugged solar]

cooking in progress

[remote sparrow]

[past fable]

It doesnt have sepsis shadowstrike, so yes it vanishes 2 globals earlier

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vZD6jFod1tXVHKyK1crcwK

[ivory kestrel]

ah it is also not using the free strike from sepsis after dance

[rugged solar]

guess my first cook was fine, 2 was a loss so i removed it

[past fable]

Its not using sepsis

The sim you linked doesnt have sepsis

[ivory kestrel]

yea first time to unkrangle sepsis on opener a bit

[past fable]

Nvm it uses it at 25 seconds with the pv change

Because using it on pull was a loss

[ivory kestrel]

yea we need to put a fight lengh thing

so can use it with only rotten and stealth

[past fable]

Nothing i tried with rotten for sepsis came up positive

[ivory kestrel]

yea it has to be an opener only thing

then the normal PV and rotten conditions shoudl be fine for later

[past fable]

Not that either

[rugged solar]

^ would need to double check this with other talent setups too, esp. non dust

[ivory kestrel]

i mean it is losing so much from not using it on pull

even vanishing first

is there any fight lenght condition?

[rugged solar]

yes

fight.remains

[ivory kestrel]

think i can sneak a sepsis stealthed action if subterfuge+ns talented rotten blades up and combo points 0 that may make it cast as third global but never again

[rugged solar]

• fight_remains

[ivory kestrel]

now how to make it strike rupture sepsis kinda

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bxCCD1a2s3uDDwDyjJNSZT

this should sepsis at the start

[ivory kestrel]

might mess up after a while let me see

ok here it krangled

used sepsis with 3 PV and no SoD

yea using it as 2nd global

[past fable]

Trying to line up sepsis with the rotten just always ends up as a massive loss

Maybe it still doesnt work with or something

[ivory kestrel]

ah true it didnt dance

might need to ask koji maybe it fell through the gaps

or it is calling old rotten?

that is ded now

also yea what txt said is true it dances at 7 secs for some reason

[remote sparrow]

you can always force it to only sepsis with rotten up or pv up and check the sepsis avg dot damage compared to a sequence where it never uses sepsis with rotten or pv up

[ivory kestrel]

ah there is no rotten condition and goremaw didnt have the new dance thing on the last one

[past fable]

#1065728795455266888 message

[ivory kestrel]

yea might as well check what armin said

[past fable]

Yes i did

[remote sparrow]

does it work?

[ivory kestrel]

did the dmg go up or stay the same

[remote sparrow]

as in rotte/pv

[ivory kestrel]

i think you also need a condition on SoD

because you have to hold it for a bit sometimes

like at 1 min

and later too

[past fable]

I mostly think its because the biggest part of the rotten (the crit) is completely wasted on sepsis

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oboDMyNu5mH7UjJadYepC2/simc
Here you can see it benefits from it

[ivory kestrel]

that is so cursed how is sepsis doing 1% of dmg

[past fable]

Because it very rarely has it up at the same time

[ivory kestrel]

but yea for fight remains do i need to use a % or a number?

[past fable]

Number

But just doing napkin math a crit+35% on shadowstrike is just more valuable than buffing sepsis by only 35%

[remote sparrow]

really? because assuming strike has a 50% crit hance itself i feel like its kinda w/e

[ivory kestrel]

yea i do think with the way we have high crit and also lethality+sepsis inherent high AP scaling

should kinda blow it

[past fable]

Ok nah i forgot to count a thing

But its not far off

[remote sparrow]

oh no sepsis is turbo bad imo. but rotten even n strike is w/e i mean

[past fable]

Sepsis is worth slightly more (~25%)

[ivory kestrel]

i mean this AP is no joke

well and even if it is not worth not using it before a vanish is always a big kranlge

will check it more tomorrow when i can go nightbat mode

[remote sparrow]

i mean thats kida the damage of like maybe 1.5 eviscerates?

including mid mastery

[ivory kestrel]

but even untalenting rotten and just using it with PV should be at least 5%-6% of total dmg

and we dont even break 4%

so just trial and error thingies

[remote sparrow]

isnt evs now 24 per cp? includin the 2nd hit ad buffs and masery its very similar ap as ths 1.5 min cd

[ivory kestrel]

possible but that is having mastery as an extra thing sepsis also has lethality and extra crit and PV at least to kinda make it better

not saying it is a super button tho

just compared to other talents it should be better

[rugged solar]

probably would with the changed gwb line

[coarse laurel]

Rotten should work for Sepsis. I added specific value for it for the damage component

  double composite_persistent_multiplier( const action_state_t* state ) const override
  {
    double m = rogue_attack_t::composite_persistent_multiplier( state );

    // 2023-10-08 -- Sepsis is now scripted to snapshot Perforated Veins and The Rotten
    if ( p()->buffs.perforated_veins->check() )
      m *= p()->buffs.perforated_veins->direct_mod.multiplier;

    if ( p()->buffs.the_rotten->check() )
      m *= p()->buffs.the_rotten->direct_mod.multiplier;

    return m;
  }

I didn't put anything for snapshotting the crit benefit but the last log I saw it didn't seem to have 100% crit on all the ticks? If that has changed, I can change the crit snapshot.

I'm not totally sure what this is referring to.

Unclear what interaction you're seeing with Goremaw here, Goremaw shouldn't really have anything to do with this?

Isn't that just Premed?

Even from raw Stealth? Seems like that would be a bug if opening from Stealth with Goremaw is resulting in not getting a Premed buff for the next global

Certainly possible I guess, but maybe would be good to double check

I'll mark Premed as NEVER_CONSTANT so it shows up in the sequence better

Since I think it is present in the precombat so gets detected incorrectly as permanent in the sample sequence

Yeah, probably changed when they added the stacks although I thought damage_buff_t defaulted to non-stacking behavior

Ah, it defaults to true now

Yeah easy fix

Sepsis works since it uses the mod directly

Since it's not in the whitelist

For the other stuff, does tornado storm correctly remove the buff now? Before it had issues since it's set up not to trigger procs, which included the proc removal.

Danse doesn't work since it's a background spell, but again it previously didn't proc this so I can find a way to adjust this if it does now

Guessing he must have changed it recently to act more like a foreground spell if it's working with this stuff now

Ok, I'll have to mess with some stuff since this is set up to just not proc things in general. Used to be it literally could proc nothing. Not even simple RPPM stuff worked

I'd be interested to know if it can proc things like RPPM damage trinkets, poisons, etc. now

For DM, does this just count as a Shuriken Storm cast in general (e.g. if you already hardcast Storm, I assume it doesn't add additional stacks)?

Since it's the same spell ID, I'd assume it just works the same but wanted to double check it was not scripted

[past fable]

It does not snapshot the crit no

[ivory kestrel]

it is a conditions thing not a problem with spell data

[coarse laurel]

I'd also be curious if the changes to storm changed stuff like this

    // 2023-01-31 -- Tornado-triggered Shuriken Storms do not activate 4pc
    if ( p()->set_bonuses.t29_subtlety_4pc->ok() && state->result == RESULT_CRIT &&
         secondary_trigger_type != secondary_trigger::SHURIKEN_TORNADO )
    {
      p()->buffs.t29_subtlety_4pc->trigger();
      p()->buffs.t29_subtlety_4pc_black_powder->trigger();
    }

As well as poisons, etc.

2pc also had an exception here

register_consume_buff( p()->buffs.t29_subtlety_2pc, p()->buffs.t29_subtlety_2pc->is_affecting( &ab::data() ) &&
                                                    secondary_trigger_type != secondary_trigger::SHURIKEN_TORNADO );

    shadow_eviscerate_t( util::string_view name, rogue_t* p ) :
      rogue_attack_t( name, p, p->spec.t31_subtlety_2pc_eviscerate )
    {
      base_multiplier *= 1.0 + p->set_bonuses.t31_subtlety_4pc->effectN( 1 ).percent();
    }

Not sure why that would be, last I checked it looked fine. Maybe some index has changed. I'll debug it after this.

VT is not supported

Since it didn't work last I heard

DD should work fine?

      // Damage is residual at the time of cast, benefitting from Dark Brew and Deeper Daggers
      double damage_amount = state->result_amount * p()->set_bonuses.t31_subtlety_2pc->effectN( 1 ).percent();
      damage_amount *= 1.0 + p()->talent.subtlety.dark_brew->effectN( 4 ).percent();
      damage_amount *= 1.0 + p()->buffs.deeper_daggers->stack_value();

      shadow_eviscerate_attack->base_dd_min = shadow_eviscerate_attack->base_dd_max = damage_amount;

[past fable]

It got changed to not work with dd like 2 weeks ago (2p evis procs that is)

Vt doesnt work either, only DB

[coarse laurel]

Ok. Seems like he probably changed it to work more like Crackshot and Fan the Hammer where it acts like a foreground cast

[coarse laurel]

You mean it expires even if you open with say Eviscerate? Or just is an issue with Goremaw?

That seems very not right 👀

Premed used to have a lot of issues like this in the past but thought most of them had been fixed long ago

I presume that also affect the CP Gen component if snd is already up and you do the same thing?

[remote sparrow]

I think thats how premed has been for a while. the buff itself only persists as long as stealth persists. once you break the stealth unless you consumed the buff, it goes away. atleast afaik

[river folio]

I think @past fable said earlier that subterfuge grants ns

[coarse laurel]

Yeah it does in the PTR

[remote sparrow]

yeah it gives ns in ptr. but doesnt exactly count as stealth i think

so no premed

[coarse laurel]

Definitely seems like an oversight though that Premed wouldn't survive into Subterfuge

[remote sparrow]

btw koji

could you explain the evis 2nd hit having its own coefficient again thing

like is this the idea behind it?

[coarse laurel]

After entering Stealth, your next Shadowstrike
Really doesn't imply that it should expire, imo. It's just without Subterfuge, typically you wouldn't be able to cast Shadowstrike without also being in Stealth

But with Subterfuge imo it really makes sense it should stick around

[coarse laurel]

I mean the spell data looks exactly like it used to be before the changes the other day

Someone will have to test more but it almost looks like it was just reverted to work how it used to work

[remote sparrow]

somethigns very diffeent

[coarse laurel]

But who knows

[remote sparrow]

like very very different

[coarse laurel]

Probably needs another thorough testing pass

[remote sparrow]

same change with RS

it also kinda died

[coarse laurel]

The one thing I will note is like

Even though the flags and coefficent got put back

It had been removed from a lot of whitelists the other day

So it's probably not in the Mastery whitelist or some other stuff now

And those didn't seem to get put back

So now it's kinda like halfway in between almost?

[remote sparrow]

its doing about 25-30% of the damage it used to do

unless the amps were a litearl 300% buff to it idk

[coarse laurel]

I mean being removed from Mastery will do that

[remote sparrow]

i have only 60% mastery so shouldnt be taht bad but yeah idk maybe

[coarse laurel]

Like currently for Evisc, as of latest spell data:

Requires weapon  : One-handed Axe, Two-handed Axe, One-handed Mace, Two-handed Mace, Polearm, One-handed Sword, Two-handed Sword, Staff, Fist Weapon, Dagger, Spear
Labels           : 2696: Veiltouched (382017 effect#3), Veiltouched (382017 effect#4), Dark Brew (382504 effect#4), Dark Brew (382504 effect#5), Deeper Daggers (383405 effect#3), Deeper Daggers (383405 effect#4)
Affecting spells : Master of Subtlety (31665 effects: #1, #2), Subtlety Rogue (137035 effects: #1, #2), Outlaw Rogue (137036 effects: #1, #2), Assassination Rogue (137037 effects: #1, #2, #20, #21), Shadow Dance (185313 effects: #4, #5), Ruthless Precision (193357 effect#1), Grand Melee (193358 effects: #1, #3), Elaborate Planning (193641 effects: #1, #2), Ghostly Strike (196937 effect#3), Symbols of Death (212283 effects: #1, #2), Master Assassin (256735 effect#1), Master Assassin's Mark (340094 effect#1), Deathly Shadows (341202 effects: #1, #2), Deathly Shadows (350964 effects: #1, #2)

Used to be this

Requires weapon  : One-handed Axe, Two-handed Axe, One-handed Mace, Two-handed Mace, Polearm, One-handed Sword, Two-handed Sword, Staff, Fist Weapon, Dagger, Spear
Labels           : 2696: Veiltouched (382017 effect#3), Veiltouched (382017 effect#4), Dark Brew (382504 effect#4), Dark Brew (382504 effect#5), Deeper Daggers (383405 effect#3), Deeper Daggers (383405 effect#4)
Affecting spells : Master of Subtlety (31665 effects: #1, #2), Rogue Tier 6 Trinket (40460 effect#1), Mastery: Executioner (76808 effects: #1, #2), Nightstalker (130493 effect#1), Subtlety Rogue (137035 effects: #1, #2), Outlaw Rogue (137036 effects: #1, #2), Assassination Rogue (137037 effects: #1, #2, #20, #21), Marked for Death (137619 effect#1), Shadow Dance (185313 effects: #4, #5), Ruthless Precision (193357 effect#1), Grand Melee (193358 effects: #1, #3), Deeper Stratagem (193531 effects: #1, #4), Elaborate Planning (193641 effects: #1, #2), Acrobatic Strikes (196924 effect#1), Ghostly Strike (196937 effect#3), Finality: Eviscerate (197496 effect#1), Symbols of Death (212283 effects: #1, #2), Master Assassin (256735 effect#1), Night's Vengeance (273424 effect#1), Master Assassin's Mark (340094 effect#1), Finality: Eviscerate (340600 effect#1), Deathly Shadows (341202 effects: #1, #2), Deathly Shadows (350964 effects: #1, #2), Tight Spender (381621 effect#1), Cold Blood (382245 effect#1), Deft Maneuvers (385835 effect#1), Finality: Eviscerate (385949 effect#1), Danse Macabre (393969 effects: #1, #2), Secret Stratagem (394320 effects: #1, #4), Devious Stratagem (394321 effects: #1, #4), Masterful Finish (395003 effects: #1, #3), Symbolic Victory (409987 effect#1), Goremaw's Bite (426593 effect#2)
Family Flags     : 17, 54

[remote sparrow]

oh wow that got removed from dance and sod too?

[coarse laurel]

So no Finality, no Mastery, no SoD, etc.

[remote sparrow]

but yeah probably, youre right

[coarse laurel]

It's like halfway in between now lol

I'm sure it'll change either way again

[remote sparrow]

very weird change though, like it sounds like it would be easier on their end too to just have it off of evis's damage

but I guess we'll see

[rugged solar]

it is premed

Premeditation is only up during stealth, but not during Subterfuge. Could lable that as a bug

So you essentially only have the bug as long as you are in Shadow dance, Sthealth or Vanish

ill open a bug report on it, as it seems unintentional

[rugged solar]

the crit does not work on sepsis, but the damage amp is

Tornado ticks do generate DM stacks, the cast is not:

[rugged solar]

they fxed PV/Rotten with Tornado
BUT
https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1141

can consume both rotten stacks at once with one tornado tick by having 2 targets

[sterile pilot]

how is it possible to sim 1dust+swift+sepsis with the idea of double dancing/sod during blades, using sepsis as last gcd in first dance to get snapshot from nightstalker and using 1 gcd between dances to get the pop during second dance with sod

[rugged solar]

if you want to implement ideas the robot is not doing now

you need to modify the apl

[sterile pilot]

does my idea sounds like worth testing

also does subterfuge give Nighstalker ?

[rugged solar]

yes, nightstalker stays active during subterfuge

[rugged solar]

it sounds like a very specific sequence, but feel free to test and report back

[ivory kestrel]

ok been in a labyrinth kinda trying to get the opener but a fast goremaw to make sure it is first builder is a 0,3 win with 10000 iterations

actions.cds+=/goremaws_bite,if=combo_points.deficit>=3&(buff.danse_macabre.stack>=1|!talent.danse_macabre)

to make it do goremaw's first builder in dance

when it can

[rugged solar]

Highlights:
(cherry picked simulations)
Single Target - Sim 1

Single Target - Sim 2

Multi Target - Sim