tc-subtlety

[past fable]

But having it be good for singletarget is sus to say the least

[remote sparrow]

you can add talents that make things better that we like

[valid robin]

Baseline

[remote sparrow]

one makes flag better

one makes blades better

one makes dance better

[mental dirge]

i dont think replicating needs to be baseline

[remote sparrow]

evis better

st better

why the fuck am i making gloombblade and backstab better only

[valid robin]

Nah but relentless and gloomblade

[mental dirge]

I think RS is actually like the biggest success story of dragonflight

RS and sectech

[valid robin]

Sectech is a winner

[mental dirge]

gloomblade 100% lol

[remote sparrow]

yes, why dont we further enhance the things that we like!

[valid robin]

Sectech was a forgotten step child for so long time

[mental dirge]

yea

[remote sparrow]

and give 15 talents that buffs things we dont liek

[mental dirge]

comeback of the century

[valid robin]

Got saved by realz

[valid robin]

Ppl like shadow dmg

I just don’t think there is enough of it

From enough sources

[remote sparrow]

i mean builder damage focused on bs/gb

[valid robin]

Why is there no shadow clone talent

[mental dirge]

the dark brew all dmg to shadow during shadow dance idea is pretty dope

big fan

[remote sparrow]

ty

[valid robin]

It is called -shadow- dance

[remote sparrow]

then we simply make our mastery increase our shadow damage after that instead of finishers only

[valid robin]

So makes sense

[remote sparrow]

and we chilling

then we start making clone talents instead of gb talents and its a wrap

[valid robin]

Still feel like they are half-assing the shadow theme

Give more of it

[fading mica]

this shit is hard man

[remote sparrow]

w/e surely 12.1.5 rework is gonna save it

back to simming

[mental dirge]

hopes for 11.0

but for now can our m+ options not be our best ST mid tier talents

that is fucking ass backwards

[remote sparrow]

its not though, your best ST is inev dust rotten

that one doesnt take RS

lit

[mental dirge]

ill be honest i looked at the sample action sequence

i dont think im going to be taking any sims seriously until thats fixed

the robot is drunk and on 5 different drugs

[valid robin]

Nope

Very minor changes can give large gains

Like pv is not a 0.1% talent

You can hate the talent

But it’s not 0.1%

[remote sparrow]

this is weird but PE sims slightly worse than VT

[valid robin]

It’s probably making sure to consume every PV with gloomblade, cus that’s how it used to work

[remote sparrow]

from what I saw i think its mostly because dance isnt synced properly to sod idk

[valid robin]

And if you then gloom mid dance to consume pv, bad shit

[remote sparrow]

I think fuu did something for PV

not sure what though

[mental dirge]

its prob not .1 but its also prob not that good

[valid robin]

0.1% is like not taking it

[mental dirge]

shadowstrike still is not very strong

[remote sparrow]

you cant, because of its position

[valid robin]

Sf being 0.1% makes sense cus you have 8 dance gcds with/without

So literally almost does nothing

[remote sparrow]

yea

on live it does soemthing though

[valid robin]

Yes

[remote sparrow]

because youre spamming after dance too

so w/e energy you save, means more gbs and more lingering and more cdr and more damage

but now youre just pooling so its w/e

[valid robin]

Energy out of dance value took a nosedive, tea probably shit too

[remote sparrow]

ill test

[mental dirge]

its a lot worse but your alternative is lethality

which also took a nosedive because gloomblade took a nosedive

[remote sparrow]

about 3%

for tea

[valid robin]

So about half value, still something I guess

[remote sparrow]

I guess

[coarse laurel]

I mean PV does seem pretty weak, ngl. Haven't looked at the APL for what could be optimized, but just looking at how it works it seems like it's not gonna be that amazing. Even if it got always used on Shadowstrike it'd only be like just over 1% I think, less if any get munched by Gloomblade. So idk. Kinda easy to see like how some of the previous PV logic might be enough to erase that.

[valid robin]

Shame everything else suck

[ivory kestrel]

PV gets carried by goremaw/ER and sepsis

[mental dirge]

yea even if you choose to spec stuff like goremaw and sepsis, you're not gonna be getting much out of pv

[ivory kestrel]

otherwise it is a meh talent

[valid robin]

Pv is like a sepsis or goremaw buffer, probably the intention at least

[ivory kestrel]

and even then no chance it is more than 2.x%

[remote sparrow]

lethality is about 1.5% per point

[valid robin]

Gonna assume vigor is large

[ivory kestrel]

1 point seems enough

[valid robin]

It’s also a thing tho, these talents don’t exist in a vacuum

[fading mica]

not like my testing is up to snuff yet, but couldn't get a benefit to playing around it inside shadowblades+dance at 3 stacks
but im sure i missed like 50 things that could effect it

[mental dirge]

having 200 energy is really nice lol

[valid robin]

So because you have deleted a bunch of energy talents, the remaining once will be good

Ones

[ivory kestrel]

the thing is you just need enough energy to dance

so 1 vigor or 2 might just be enough

[fading mica]

without goremaw/er/sepsis

[mental dirge]

thats not the point

havign 200 energy cap allows to pool more ShT for shadowcraft

[ivory kestrel]

improved sht and fixing tier should be enough

that too

[mental dirge]

without overcapping

[ivory kestrel]

i expect vigor to be better in aoe funnily enough

now tha you go quite negative with storms

vs lethality at least

ER is also a way diff beast

[mental dirge]

lethality is terrible in aoe

[valid robin]

Witnessing the reason why blizzard don’t enjoy doing mid-expansion reworks tho. You kinda have to go all-in or you might end up with some talents being obsolete in the new version

[ivory kestrel]

seems cursed to have only 100 energy

gb and tfd/mos

are just

weak

tfd at least has some promise if we can find some combo of talents

like to get 5 or 6 finishers in dance with shadowcraft or smth

[valid robin]

Tfd should count as a builder

And work with sht

[ivory kestrel]

would be cool

[coarse laurel]

But yeah I think the main issue with the APL right now is just the shift in the PV usage

[remote sparrow]

you can put an absoloute upper bound on the talent. change it so that it builds off of strike AND gb increasing the total number of procs gauranteeing its value >= its real value. now the talent essentially makes it so that your 5th builder does 1.5x damage instead. so 10% builder buff. now buff all buiders by 10%.
from this link: #1065728795455266888 message
about 13% of your damage is builder (less because 2pc + 4pc isnt in here, but lets asssume 13%)

[coarse laurel]

Since atm Shadowstrike is way more DPET than Gloomblade but most PVs are being used on Gloomblade now

[remote sparrow]

then its litearlly absoloutely capped at 1.3%

[coarse laurel]

So that can almost certainly be adjusted to bring it a bit more positive

But the ceiling is probably still pretty low yeah

[valid robin]

Still not going to be a showstopper

Maybe PV should also be 2 attacks to mirror rotten

Would also make rotten better

[remote sparrow]

^ its a really garbage talent, that is turbo worthless if you dont play around it, if you do play around it, its super annying/sometimes hard to play around, and still not strong to justify it

[mental dirge]

ye i mean these generator buffing talents will almost eternally be terrible because they make like 2-3 of them, they're all relatively weak, and then the base dmg of the generators is weak because its a finisher spec

so as a consequence you have these really rancid talents that dont make sense and are low value

[coarse laurel]

It's gonna be tricky to fully optimize because certainly you'll get cases where you only need 1 more stack but you're at zero CP or w/e

[mental dirge]

theres no giga strong supporting actors for it

[valid robin]

Make shadowstrike do shadow dmg baseline

Just pull the ripcord

[mental dirge]

funny thing is thats not enough

[remote sparrow]

yep, very common that I had to delay sod by a few seconds to get enough pv stacks to pair my rotten with it

[mental dirge]

and if you buff strike you have to nerf finishers in return

[valid robin]

It will do something

[remote sparrow]

then strike crits for 120k with all of that

banger

[valid robin]

It will buff shadow dmg talents

[mental dirge]

need to like make ss shadow and then also make a talent that makes your whole mastery buff generators instead at 2x value

[valid robin]

Really? Sub doesn’t seem overly strong atm

[ivory kestrel]

yea PV without goremaw/ER or sepsis is just noodle

[mental dirge]

idk maybe

i mean im always down for cool changes with no nerfs in return

[remote sparrow]

as in tuning wise right now on ptr?

[valid robin]

Tuning wise yes

Not that tuning is finished

[mental dirge]

i dont really look at numbers until like literal last week

too many bugs

demo this week is god all of a sudden

wonder why

[remote sparrow]

^

[valid robin]

But instead of an aura buff, you can make strike shadow or some other shit

[mental dirge]

all ptr demo has been doomed dead spec

[remote sparrow]

we legit cant know what the spec does yet

[mental dirge]

now they're partying wooooo

[remote sparrow]

way too many bugs

is goremaw good? dont know its eating too many buffs, can we do 3rd dance? dont know all cps are wasted

[turbid pulsar]

guy that did their tierset adjustment failed math

[remote sparrow]

hard to play the spec

[valid robin]

Tier is literally a 100% dmg increase or something

[mental dirge]

also taht wonder why was more rhetorical, I knew there was something fishy with the tier

[ivory kestrel]

idk remember warlock class trink vs ours?

sure give this class that has one of the best cds the trinket that gives 10k int

[valid robin]

I just don’t think sub got enough damage in dance to get all of its out of dance dmg ripped away

[mental dirge]

yea

[valid robin]

So it’s prob undertuned regardless

[remote sparrow]

i think its a little more than just the tier. (pure st on a dummy no raid buffs or pi)

[valid robin]

Buff dark shadow to 40%

Make it happen

It’s a locked in talent anyway

[mental dirge]

im putting my life savings on buffs to backstab ill be real here

[ivory kestrel]

pls no

[remote sparrow]

good bet tbh

[ivory kestrel]

not again

[valid robin]

You mean gloomblade

[mental dirge]

same thing at this point

[ivory kestrel]

nah gb is noodle point

[mental dirge]

with how shit the shadow amps are numerically

[valid robin]

Not if stab is buffed

[remote sparrow]

its 2%, one of our strongest talents wym

[mental dirge]

backstab buff always = gloomblade buff

[ivory kestrel]

ahaha truee

[past fable]

From what ive seen it didnt really look that undertuned in raid testing

[ivory kestrel]

2% the mightiest of warriors

fighting neck and neck with RS

[past fable]

Once sims starts using dances in blades outside of the opener our sims are gonna look better

[ivory kestrel]

well getting the syncs will be interesting

[remote sparrow]

I mean its not hard to approximate the specs damage.

[turbid pulsar]

you tell me

[mental dirge]

i didnt feel undertuned in raid testing

[remote sparrow]

sims mostly playing fine for the first 30 seconds. replicate the damage done in that duration, thats every one of your big bursts damage done.

[mental dirge]

fwiw

[valid robin]

Playing with monkeys

[remote sparrow]

now you need to know how much damage you do outside of dance, in dance but no cds, and how often youre using these cds. then its done. theres your sim

[ivory kestrel]

UNLIMITED POWEEEERRR

[mental dirge]

idk the people that i test with know how to play their classes

at least the melee

i think you might just be looking at awful players push

[ivory kestrel]

so we only did 80k less than the uhdk?

[valid robin]

Only really matters for actual patchwerks too

[remote sparrow]

idk man, kalamazi on max's stream said this tierset is worth 0.1%, surely buffing it by 100% doesnt turn it into a 300k dps tier set does it? kalamazi never lies so that cant be it

[turbid pulsar]

locks lie

[valid robin]

Warlocks always lie

[ivory kestrel]

locks and moonkin

rat powders

[remote sparrow]

i know. i hate that guy so much

[valid robin]

It’s not about who the warlock is, the person behind the screen becomes a liar

[turbid pulsar]

what was doombrand uptime?

[remote sparrow]

in the log I had? not sure I was just hitting a dummy then when i logged it saw this lock murdering the dummy

[turbid pulsar]

cuz im fairly sure this is what broke it

they just removed the ppm

[valid robin]

Pog

[remote sparrow]

doombrand had 27% uptime

[turbid pulsar]

and everytime it runs out

doomfiend gets spawned

that absolutely bonks

[remote sparrow]

yeah doombrand on its own was doing like 30k dps

doomfied 260k dps

[valid robin]

Wtf

[remote sparrow]

46 k for doombrand

not 30

still, 46k 2pc?

idk sounds good

27% uptime

[turbid pulsar]

doomfiend does like 4 casts everytime they spawn (to each target btw) and they hit for 100k non crit to everything at 454

and ppm is just random on each brand that expires

which you can have multiple up of on AoE 🙂

full rng set

[fading mica]

Apologies in advance for doing things wrong, first time c:
Talents: Rotten, No Sepsis, No Gore
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/44tYQLhh9UgXp8AVHLGy1E
Talents: Rotten, Gore, No Sepsis
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bTbHK547CerW46EEGdNJFg
Talents: Rotten, Gore, Sepsis
https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/627fjeKkX2dFZGDUR7u4PG
Robot does not seem to like pressing gloom inside dance. Doing it to proc PV (when you are at 3 stacks) doesnt seem worth it, even if only during blades
I didn't touch cd logic outside of stealth so im sure there's lots of holes that could be patched with maybe holding sepsis/gore for an upcoming SoD

[remote sparrow]

awesome, nice find. it makes sense, and was something we were kind of expecting,

great that we can now know for sure

[coarse laurel]

Seems like that makes sense now that PV works on everything and Shadowstrike hits so much harder than Gloomblade

Not unexpected considering the design of PV basically completely inverted lol

Probably just take all the existing PV logic and put "!" in front of it and it'd probably be fine 🤣

[remote sparrow]

actions.cds+=/shuriken_tornado,if=variable.snd_condition&buff.symbols_of_death.up&combo_points<=2&(!buff.premeditation.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)&cooldown.flagellation.remains>=30

about 3% gain

to hold tornado

[remote sparrow]

^ for dust only so need to add a if dust talented condition

[fading mica]

tried holding sepsis/gore ~10 seconds before symbols with rotten, did not find a gain

[remote sparrow]

@fading mica do you know how to make it not dance if blades is coming up in x seconds?
I tried adding a condition : (cooldown.shadow_dance.charges_fractional>=1.25&cooldown.shadow_blades.remains>=45)|buff.shadow_blades.up) but doenst seem to work

[fading mica]

at least what i was using was just cooldown.symbols.remains >= 10

not sure why that wouldnt work for blades

[remote sparrow]

hmm idk tbh

[fading mica]

maybe it's the other part of your condition, i haven't messed with any charge functionality

[remote sparrow]

but yeah if we can fix this its gonna be a huge improvement

[fading mica]

maybe the problem is a different dance line? there's a bunch of them

[remote sparrow]

yeah maybe, Ill ask fuu when hes up

[remote sparrow]

I think this is highest build so far. @fading mica maybe you can add your changes to this?

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eMjaLxNDXGF3kZeEsbbo9N

[rotund flint]

I don't see talents on phone

[rugged solar]

i saw that yesterday too, but i need to look a bit more into it given that some talent combos ended up losing damage when i simply removed it similar to you

[rugged solar]

you can simply add a condition to the shadow dance variable for rotten

[rugged solar]

will look at this one in a moment

[remote sparrow]

I tried making it not dance when symbols not up, or not dance when blades coming up soon, or delay flag since blades is now bound to flags (i thnk?) for sod to be up

but it never did it

[rugged solar]

flag is already synced to blades

so you could sync things to blades

[remote sparrow]

yeah exactly, so i tried making it hold flag for when sod was about to be up, (that way blades would also alreayd be synved)

but it never held it

[rugged solar]

oh wow

after the strike buffs, seems fairly bad to use gb/bs at all in dance

[fading mica]

yuh

[rugged solar]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vf6hRC91GhPNecuAbsuz1U

was one of the builds i need to look at

also the GwB line did nothing damage wise

but i think it is better to work the way up

for bs/gb in dance

because its such a big increase on some builds

can be this big

but was expecting it

[remote sparrow]

so making it hold things a bit around sod is making the spikes a bit spikier

previous apl had these spikes around 170-180 now theyre around 25

225*

but the overall damage is a bit lower

[rugged solar]

its this build

ill just nuke the 3 lines for now tho

or wait

nvm looks fine to me

DM has some possible optimizations after, but lets work one step at the time

[rugged solar]

what talent combo did you test this with

[remote sparrow]

BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLJJlEQKlEJIJhkkEJSLSSiWSCSgIpkSAAAAIBB

[rugged solar]

because it seems damage neutral for me

[remote sparrow]

and made it hold tornado for blades

[rugged solar]

i see some gains, but not with the 30 sec rule

[remote sparrow]

hmm weird, just the 30 second for flag put me at 133

btw can you link me the html report for this one?

[rugged solar]

moment

ill put in your rule 1:1

ah nvm, i forgot to delete a condition

its also 2.3% now

ill link the report in a sec

[remote sparrow]

okay, this is starting to look better now

look at the opener for thishttps://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5fpM11ZAKG8YMTSe6Fsnxt/simc

I think this is the perfect opener

let me know what you think.

[rugged solar]

it does that, but not every iteration

i noticed that

forcing it was not a gain

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/d3U8KmnwktoVesvFx7agFp

i think the time is not even the important part

let me check sth

[remote sparrow]

it only matters for dust builds

non dust builds itll naturally line up

sending it on cd

[rugged solar]

no, i mean the reason it is a gain

is not because it holds

[remote sparrow]

oh interesting

[rugged solar]

give me a sec to run a sim on it, to show what i mean

[remote sparrow]

btw what is your shd_threshdhold variable you have?

[rugged solar]

it checks if slice and dice is up ^^

but having it as variable means you have one place to modify it

e.g. if it is not worth to care about snd on specific target counts

or under certain other conditions

rupture has a similar condition

"skip_rupture" variable

the name is very discribtive

[remote sparrow]

ah i see, okay makes sense, because im notcing this rule is actively messing up the cds when you have shadowdust

vanish,if=!variable.shd_threshold&combo_points.deficit>1&(cooldown.flagellation.remains>=60|!talent.flagellation|fight_remains<=(30*cooldown.vanish.charges))&(cooldown.symbols_of_death.remains>3|!set_bonus.tier30_2pc)

[rugged solar]

oh wait

shd_threashold

not snd_condition

variable.shd_threshold checks the cooldown on dance

so you dance > vanish

esp. if you are close to capping on charges

[remote sparrow]

ah yes i found it

variable,name=shd_threshold,value=cooldown.shadow_dance.charges_fractional>=0.75+talent.shadow_dance

[rugged solar]

okay
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/imWvD6ZP7vFQuPQmDSuzct

[remote sparrow]

hmm, this is kind of weird for dust and double dance.

[rugged solar]

seems not to be the case

but lets try dungeon slice and multi target

[remote sparrow]

vanish,if=!variable.shd_threshold&combo_points.deficit>1

this line is why.

if you have 2 dances, this forces you to vanish before dancing

[rugged solar]

wdym

i am not following

[remote sparrow]

so here, you have 1+ charges of dance

roughly 1.25 ish i think

[rugged solar]

that looks wrong

[remote sparrow]

but since 1.25 is <1.75

it returns false on the condition, then vanishes

[rugged solar]

yes, but thats fine

bcause you would be on 1.75 after

it shouldn't dance in vanish tho

that sounds wrong

[remote sparrow]

not really, because you want to use the vanish to reset both sod and sectech

I also added a condition to not use flag unless sod is up in 3 seconds. so sod is up in 3 seconds from here

[rugged solar]

moment, ill do tornado first

i haven't looked at dance/symbols syncing that much

so possible that there is some better alignment potential

[remote sparrow]

ok finally got an upgrade forcing it to sync things together.

[rugged solar]

overall it seems naural to me to just line things up

so likely that there is more gain in it

i tried PV rules yesterday

but haven't found somehting that was a gain

[remote sparrow]

its neutral so far, because its still messing up the 3rd and 4th blades. need to figure those out still.

[remote sparrow]

I dont think its worth playing around pv.

[rugged solar]

nope

thats what my conclusion was too

but maybe there are some edge cases

[remote sparrow]

I did a quick math above for koji, and you can put an absoloute upper bound on pv to be 1.3%

and this is a very high upper bound

so at best its about 0.5%

[rugged solar]

e.g. by delaying gb or sepsis for a few gcds

but i did mostly cleanups yday

so good that you and kira found something

[remote sparrow]

yeah I just started today, im sure we'll find a lot of thigns soon 🙂

[rugged solar]

oh yes

i mentioned it, you atm have a lot of room for improvements

the tornado rule seems neutal on non dust

[remote sparrow]

yep! itll automatically line up with non dust

so itll be neutral

[rugged solar]

also i found 20 sec instead of 30 to be slightly better

[remote sparrow]

ah nice

[rugged solar]

and i had to modify 1-2 other lines

[remote sparrow]

makes sense

[rugged solar]

to make it work with more tagrtes

🙂

moment

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1q35j1aG6gBWViyf1mRCWY

is what i have atm

But there is a lot to iterate over still

[remote sparrow]

i have something pretty similar around 133.5

[rugged solar]

TODO Things to look into at some point:

• Sht optimizations (mainly for ER)
• Priority Rotation
• Vulnerability

APL Changes, part 2

• [Dust + Shd](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Finality + Stealthed](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Cleanup](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Danse Macabre](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Trinkets](#1065728795455266888 message), [Trinkets](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Stealth threashold](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Trinket](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Cleanup part 2](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Flagellation](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Racial updates](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Shuriken Tornado](#1065728795455266888 message)
• [Rupture](#1065728795455266888 message)

in no particular order

there is more than that

prio_rotation is def. relevant too but not at as a higher priority

[remote sparrow]

I think Ive figured out what the issue is, and why its getting desynced

[rugged solar]

ah nice

[remote sparrow]

its just a weird sod+vanish condition thats intearcting with the 2pc.

like if i turn off the 2pc, it fixes the 2nd and 3rd blades

and 4th

actually nvm, it still messes it up 😐

[past fable]

Almost feels like its worth just nuking dance+symbols+shb lines and just start from scratch since most of the old logic doesnt apply anymore

[rugged solar]

yes

the old symbols sync logic is still part of the condition

it is what i assume makes sense to see how that works out

still have the feeling that sending dance raw without secret might be not ideal

[past fable]

But just making sure you always get 2 dances in blades seem pretty important compared to sending dance 10 seconds before blades

[rugged solar]

agree

i think a lot of the logic is like this

not nessecery nuking the old thing (even tho i already nuked quite a bit)

but in need of heavy modification

[ivory kestrel]

yea like right now with no tornado if it dies you need to do a lil back stab finisher

or two or use vanish might as well get the NS rupture then too

[remote sparrow]

so, it seems relatively proper now

[rugged solar]

i atm try to clean up dance condition ^^

[rugged solar]

cleaned up shadow dance condition, it is only a very small damage gain with specific talents, but it should allow easier modification

[past fable]

This is without dust or nado, seems to be a loss with dust but thats probably due to overcapping

[rugged solar]

dust seems more sensitive

[past fable]

But its also sending all vanishes+subterfuge globals into blades instead of using dance, which seems kinda odd

[rugged solar]

can you link the sim

[past fable]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/o6az5YMnjp2FK4ETjiedZX

Its probably because i kept the sectech cd requirement, now that i think about it

[rugged solar]

moment

[past fable]

Ye which is why im trying the non-dust stuff, i feel like im too dumb to properly edit the APL for dust

[rugged solar]

tier set needs to be considered for this

because the change is a loss with tier obv.

[past fable]

Ye theres probably a better way of doing it, but fitting your dances inside blades and symbols should be a decently high priority

[rugged solar]

feel the same, two charges should allow better control over when to use dance

[past fable]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bPPZsqo3SSS2bFmdpjfZTi
Without beacon+bomb it seems to be even better to force it.
((buff.shadow_blades.up|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=8&buff.shadow_blades.down)&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<=25)
is the line for the even stricter, basically forcing it to use dance within blades or a full symbols. The vanish change is just making it so it prioritizes dancing over vanishing in blades

Obviously this still ignores current 2p, but i feel like its better to focus on the next tiers stuff and fix the current 2p once we feel like the next tiers stuff is sorted

[rugged solar]

its no problem, i can make it consider dust/tier

already doing tests

[past fable]

@coarse laurel Pretty sure shadow technique stacks are getting used up even during blades. As there is literally no way of losing sht stacks during blades (outside of the shadowcraft refund, which isnt implemented yet). And all of the losses coincides with uses of builders, which leads me to believe its just getting used like usual despite it not filling up anything. Ingame blades just fills you to 7 cp and then you retain the stacks

[rugged solar]

good find

[coarse laurel]

Hmm. Not sure why that would be. Should be happening afterward.

Can take a look

[past fable]

Another very small thing i found is that it doesnt seem like auto attacks are included in the shadowblades whitelist in simc

[coarse laurel]

In what way does it work in game?

[past fable]

I cant really be bothered showing it better than this but you can see that there is no purple shadow blades line after the auto attack

Ingame autos benefit from it

[coarse laurel]

That's strange, wouldn't have expected that given the wording

[past fable]

You know how it goes

[narrow leaf]

Do mean performing the opener, playing repetitively normally and repeating whe they come up again?

[coarse laurel]

Ok fixed

[rugged solar]

nice

[ivory kestrel]

thx man

[past fable]

For some reason the shadowcraft refund mechanic seems to have snuck itself in but only if you vanish for it, not otherwise

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eNEgwsndbMh2ubSAGTsX1z

(also just to be clear, i have no expectation of you fixing these instantly koji, just take a look whenever you have the time theres absolutely no rush)

[rugged solar]

took me a while but (moment)

dust + tier

dust without tier

no dust + tier

no dust without tier

the dance apl line:

actions.stealth_cds+=/shadow_dance,if=variable.rotten&(variable.shd_combo_points&variable.shd_threshold|(buff.shadow_blades.up|buff.symbols_of_death.remains>=6&!set_bonus.tier30_2pc|!buff.symbols_of_death.remains&set_bonus.tier30_2pc)&cooldown.secret_technique.remains<10+12*(!talent.invigorating_shadowdust|set_bonus.tier30_2pc))

profile + apl:

[mental dirge]

That must be a fat amount of cp chomped

[rugged solar]

seeing this in the sample sequence too

[coarse laurel]

Hmm somehow Vanish must be passing the energize test but not sure why

Maybe some errant parsing from old legendary traits or w/e

#3 (id=271221)   : Energize Power (30)
                   Base Value: 0 | Scaled Value: 0 | PvP Coefficient: 1.00000 | Misc Value: combo_points | Target: Self (1)

yeah

I'll add a value check

[coarse laurel]

Ok, Vanish issue should be fixed now

[rugged solar]

does shadowcraft refill work in the sim?

[coarse laurel]

Not yet

[low breach]

If that talent works in the sim it's hard to think it is not the BiS talent

[rugged solar]

thanks, no hurry

[low breach]

Your doing an awesome job keep it up

[rugged solar]

the talent works, the refill is only a small part of its power budget

[low breach]

But I cannot imagine getting this new talent and its not being used.

[coarse laurel]

What are the special cases about the refill currently again?

[rugged solar]

tier set

it works like the following

you get a refill on a finisher, only if it can fill to <max cp>

the tier set proc is before the refill

and instant

so with new 4p, secret gives 4 cp and shadowcraft refils +3 if you have 3 stacks

[coarse laurel]

Sure ok

[past fable]

Or well, thats how realz said it will work, but thats not how it currently works

[rugged solar]

^ not yet on server

but the refill is simply after a finisher

[low breach]

Any eta?

[rugged solar]

you need to ask blizzard, but it was hinted before the weekly reset, so i assume next week could be

[low breach]

I doubt some random ping from me would just annoy him. Your more of a representative community member. When you ask it it would be better.

Haha you just changed to blizzard 🤣

[rugged solar]

yes, don't ping him. my point was just that we have no information

[low breach]

I know

[rugged solar]

i changed it to not make people who are new thinking its fine to just randomly ping

[low breach]

Yeah all gucci

Sorry I just thought u have more insight. I love the shadowcraft stuff reminds me wod sub. If I remember correctly it's similar to the anticipation talent.

[rugged solar]

realz was quite active in discord for a while

there is no hidden communication, so what you find if you search him is what we know

[low breach]

👍OK

Maybe keep a public checklist or pin some stuff he said would be fixed?

[rugged solar]

blizz does not rly like to promote non official communication pipelines

you won't find discord messages on news sites like wowhead for this reason

[low breach]

Ok

[rugged solar]

but it is easy to just type from:.realz in the search function

[coarse laurel]

https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/commit/2d0dfc7b4eab262a10434277d96116b26c959101

[mental dirge]

Is the tier set implemented koji?

[coarse laurel]

Not yet, last thing for me to do I think

[rugged solar]

don't think so (didn't see it on git)

[coarse laurel]

How do the "clones" work? Do they have the same pet damage modifier issues that SecTec does?

Or is it fake clones

[rugged solar]

deeper and DB work on them

VT does not for some reason

@past fable tested it recently again iirc

[coarse laurel]

Do you have logs?

Also what does "has a chance" mean? I see nothing in the spell data with any sort of RPPM or percentage chance value. Just a 1s ICD

[past fable]

Recently is pushing it, and i realized now that i didnt actually link my log on my spreadsheet tracking it but here goes

[rugged solar]

proc chance seems to be 30% or 33%

[coarse laurel]

All the homies love scripting

[past fable]

I can double check in a bit with logs

[coarse laurel]

I just wanna double check the spell IDs and all that, if you happen to have some logs that would help

[rugged solar]

i got ~30% with ~1 hour on dummy on ptr

but multiple people saw ~33%

[mental dirge]

Prob 30

[rugged solar]

one with way longer testing than i did iirc

[mental dirge]

33% is an odd number lol

[past fable]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/J46CPRxQ7K9r8gc1#fight=5
Here is a random log, the clones arent yet attached to the players in logs

Its a bug on blizzards end, i went and spoke to a guy from the wcl team to be sure

[coarse laurel]

Ah more Akaari Soul bullshit wonderful 😄

[past fable]

YEP

[past fable]

Its every third, not particularly odd lol

[rugged solar]

the set works on secret without stating it

kind of indicates it ^^

[coarse laurel]

Did you happen to check if they are affected by pet modifiers like SecTec?

[past fable]

Pet mods as in the orc racial or whatever

?

[mental dirge]

No just odd making a proc 33% chance

[coarse laurel]

Yes

[past fable]

I would assume it works the same way as sectech since its the same actor. Not sure how to race change on the ptr as the customize thing next to my character in the character select doesnt let me

Or if theres another decently easy way to check the pet modifiers

[rugged solar]

you can race change after copying over a char

think it depends on the server what fraction you can be

[past fable]

It doesnt let me

Thats what im saying

[rugged solar]

even if you copy over a new one?

[past fable]

Ye

[rugged solar]

weird

[coarse laurel]

So.. strange question

Is it actually intended that the 4pc causes SecTec clones to grant CP? Or just an accident because it uses the same pet?

[rugged solar]

it is intended

[coarse laurel]

Odd

[past fable]

I would guess it wasnt intended to begin with but they decided it made sense so its staying

But yes realz said its intended

[rugged solar]

they wanted to re-use the shadow theme

[coarse laurel]

So presumably the 4pc also affects SecTec clone damage?

[past fable]

It does indeed

[coarse laurel]

This is all scripted to shit so can't really tell any of this lol

[past fable]

Also the 2p clones does not seem to be benefitting from the orc racial

[coarse laurel]

Ok thanks

Curious how the Shadowcraft stuff is supposed to work very easily when the clone CP gen still has a 1s delay even on the non-SecTec casts (and SecTec has even more)

Fun times

[rugged solar]

the delay will get removed

essentially realz did say all cp gain from tier will be instant

it was the solution they came up to solve the timing problems

[coarse laurel]

Hmm

I guess we'll have to see how they do it

[fading mica]

i believe he said cp gen instant, damage delayed

[rugged solar]

so the clone attack will be delayed but the cp is instant

[fading mica]

which will be interesting to see

[coarse laurel]

Do we expect that's going to continue to yield 4cp from SecTec or is it gonna go down to 2cp like the other finishers?

[rugged solar]

it stays 4cp

because its 2 clone attacks

only secret is 4 cp, the other procs are only 2

[low breach]

Question is it then like sepulcar where we just got instant cp back with 4p?

While in sepulcar it was more rng

[rugged solar]

well it is not implemented

but yes, it is the same

you use a finisher and get cp back

[low breach]

Thats pretty strong 4p then ngl

[past fable]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jMWdCKJ1B6nQGx9q#fight=4&pins=2%24Off%24%23244F4B%24any%24-1%24867936.0.0.Rogue|144961.0.0.Pet%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Any%24true%241943|424493&view=events&type=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jMWdCKJ1B6nQGx9q#fight=2&view=events&type=damage-done&pins=2%24Off%24%23244F4B%24any%24-1%24867936.0.0.Rogue|144961.0.0.Pet%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Any%24true%24196819|424491
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pQygcKkZ2RTXMmzH#fight=9&pins=2%24Off%24%23244F4B%24any%24-1%24867936.0.0.Rogue|144961.0.0.Pet%240.0.0.Any%24true%240.0.0.Any%24true%24196819|424491&view=events
Logs for rupture clones WITH db/vt
Logs for evisc clones WITHOUT db/dd/vt BP works exactly the same as evis does
Logs for evis clones WITH dd+db+vt

[low breach]

Sepulcar 4p was giga but a lot of rng

[rugged solar]

possible, not sure

[low breach]

Well what I read here and elsewhere 4p was not being hailed as any good

[rugged solar]

it becomes rly weak if you add more targets

also it is a proc chance

but this discussion would be more fintting to #tww-subtlety

[low breach]

K sorry

[past fable]

We love scripts

[remote sparrow]

is the latest APL in the pins the best one we have so far?

Trying to figure out where I should pick up from

[past fable]

Yes fuu has updated it based on the dance stuff he did earlier

[rugged solar]

yes

[remote sparrow]

awesome thanks! is it general or is it optimized for dust/nondust build?

[rugged solar]

also has the stealth list cleaned up

and again convoluted with the help of eleem

😛

[past fable]

#1065728795455266888 message

[remote sparrow]

classic eleem hehehe

[rugged solar]

did quickly check for finality

but haven't found a condition that works positively

[past fable]

I dont think there is any without the tier, possibly not even with the tier but its definitely gonna be carried by the tier if there is one

[remote sparrow]

I have thought about a few finality conditions but idk how hard it would be to actually do them

[past fable]

Also equiping on-use trinkets that make the burst bigger makes having finality for the burst with them more important as well

Although pretty much all sims ive done show the embersoul trinket being kinda ass, which is surprising to me

And it did seem to be working correctly, but im not 100% sure

[remote sparrow]

thats another thing i wanted to test, can we sim the new trinkets yet?

I want to test dust vs no dust with the new trinkets

[past fable]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSCfqvYso2z8Ir8LZ3NhRYn5vcQXaTAOAi9GbY_hhjnl02L-QKMX1K_c9kyXRLXuGE08dl0wBLRzF-C/pubhtml

[rugged solar]

okay, technically

sim

[past fable]

This sheet shows the status of the trinkets and such

[rugged solar]

need to re-sim with lower error

[remote sparrow]

assuming we can then only test the implemented ones and not the in beta ones

[past fable]

You can use the in beta ones, but they may not be working 100% perfectly

Usually the in beta ones work though

[remote sparrow]

oh fun! thank you!

I havent worked with trinkets yet so idk, but say for dust, im trying to force it to only be used if you're in blades.
can i then add a actions,cd+=/{trinket_name},if=buff.shadow_blades.up?

[past fable]

y

[remote sparrow]

awesome thanks!

[rugged solar]

^ seems like a consistent 0.1% gain

only for the single target condition, adding the same to multi target isn't that great

i guess, its fine to add

probably in gameplay a bit too min/max

[past fable]

Not sure what you even changed tbh

[rugged solar]

refresh rupture later if its empowered

(but 0.1% dps, so not rly a big gain)

[remote sparrow]

mmm new trinekts dont seem to work unfortunately

atleast ashes

[rugged solar]

give it some time, it is still a month or more till raid opens

[remote sparrow]

maybe im messing it up but this is the conditoin actions.cds+=/use_item,name=ashes-of-the-embersoul,use_off_gcd=1,if=buff.shadow_blades.up

I was just wondering if the trinkets strong enough to bring the 2 builds closer

[rugged solar]

you can try and test mirror

it is also a good option

[remote sparrow]

I want to test a strong 2 minutes. I might test badge the pvp trinket

[past fable]

needs to be _ not -

[remote sparrow]

nice catch! yeah i just copy pasted the name from wowhead smh

[rugged solar]

i think i have some bad news

[rotund flint]

lets go sepsis

[rugged solar]

okay, not as bad as i assumed

but still wild

Best non tier
BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLRSJBkSLRCSESSSSi0ikkolkIJBIHokSAAAAIBB

[past fable]

Vigor over dance is certainly interesting

[rugged solar]

best with current tier
BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEAAAAAASLJJlEQKlEJIRIJJJJSLSSiWSCSgIpkSAAAAIBB

[remote sparrow]

this is terrifying

[rugged solar]

but also

[rotund flint]

i knew it will be sepsis

how do you sim tier ?

[rugged solar]

BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEtEAAAAAASLJJlEQKlEJIRIJJJJSLSSiWSCHIJAKpEAAAASQA

[rotund flint]

it though its not implemented

[rugged solar]

t30 not 31

[past fable]

Its not

Current tier means aberrus tier, not the 10.2 one

[rugged solar]

^

[remote sparrow]

what abotu dance over cb?

how much worse does that sim

[rugged solar]

i kinda like it

but extremely unexpected

[rotund flint]

i see, i mean ther is some value in simming old tier as thats what you get in first raid, but everyone will be interested in new tier

[rugged solar]

its just interessting how close er is

unexpected

but in part because of dust

also interessting that SF did beat VT in the sim

[rotund flint]

cant wait to see tier set sims

(current)

it will shift power into finality and db surely

[rugged solar]

you mean 10.2 tier sims?

[rotund flint]

yes

[rugged solar]

not rly in a hurry

apl can still see improvements

[ivory kestrel]

10.2 tier will come a bit later

[past fable]

non dust

I accidently had wft disabled, maybe that changes something idk

[remote sparrow]

im down fuck it we roll

[past fable]

Ye non-dust was noticeably behind

[rugged solar]

thats only 1 dust

[past fable]

Ah the 1 duster

[rugged solar]

maybe the middle can change a bit

because i am not sure sf is that strong in that combo

[remote sparrow]

this looks like the damage breakdown for sepsis lethality build (im using dance not 1 cb)

looking at this, just adding PV value to every sepsis cast seems like a bigger gain than dd

about 26% of your damage is shadow in this build.

so dd is quite weak.

adding pv value to roughly 1/3 of strikes + every sepsis seems somehwat real -> should be a pretty decent gain

[past fable]

Try this bottom setup

[past fable]

Or maybe my results are just getting screwed because the default you provided just sims so much higher so it only does a few iterations of it

I mean ye now its just cursed

[rugged solar]

yes

need to put db build baseline

[rugged solar]

sims well tho

[past fable]

Unfortunately theres a bit too many possible options so you need to limit your combinations somewhat so you can end up missing some setups, so youll just need to do a lot of different runs

[rugged solar]

yep

[remote sparrow]

Pv effect:
no PV

pv

pv

no pv

[rugged solar]

kek

the build above wants lethality over dance

[remote sparrow]

pv seems better than it looks

[ivory kestrel]

yea eventually we will get it right but if you can PV sepsis and goremaw/ER it will get a few points of brownie dps

now after this momi video i will delve into the swamp

[rugged solar]

maybe there is some improvement for er to be found

[remote sparrow]

if we play no dance no tea ER CB sepsis rotten pv im pretty sure subs gonna die harder than it died in bfa

[ivory kestrel]

i dont think we play CB tbh

but also funny thing about ER is you can get 1 point into lethality

and not take leeching only build with less surv kekw

[remote sparrow]

these are the common no tea builds

turned tier off

I think this new sepsis one is the highest new non tier build?

also interesting that even in a no tea 1 vigor build, SF is worse than RS

huh cb is an upgrade

🙂

[ivory kestrel]

lul

this point in time is so funny until more things get unkrangled

[remote sparrow]

its so weird though because 1) forcing it to use rotten on Sepsis is a slight loss

forcing it to use Rotten on ER is net neutral

I guess it makes sense , since rotten doesnt gaurantee its crit on sepsis.

[ivory kestrel]

i think we need to find a way for rotten+PV then it might be a win

the problem likely comes from the second builder

having to put goremaw or ER there somehow

so it ends up as a win most likely

[remote sparrow]

i forced it to use it always with Pv. big loss

[ivory kestrel]

yea something is afoot for sure ahaha

[remote sparrow]

if u force it to cast with pv and rotten up only

this is if you use sepsis when you have either rotten or pv up

[remote sparrow]

I wonder if ER/RC can help in low target cleave

[fading mica]

Could try to proc PV before entering sod so that it lines up without forcing it

Maybe only if you happen to land on 3 stacks right before you'd sod anyway

[ivory kestrel]

the syncs may be krangled anyway

and the in dance old 2p proc might get wasted somewhat

[fading mica]

I tried it before a bunch of u guy's changes but didn't find a gain

Wasn't very sophisticated tho

[ivory kestrel]

yea might be a thing for the new set old one might mess it up too much or even no set

[remote sparrow]

i can try delaying dance and sod if pv has 2+ stacks

[ivory kestrel]

holding 4PV for a bit is what we usually do

for sepsis at least for goremaw i do 3 PV then enter dance but with how much shadowstrike trucks now

might just do goremaw first builder in dance

[remote sparrow]

I played dust rotten sepsis pv quite a bit today

the CB + ER thingy is a sim bait I think. it feels quite unplayable at some points

tea feels wasted, I just overcapped on tea the whole fight m

1-2 vigor seems perfect

not a fan of the theme of the build, but it feels quite smooth and fun to plat and minmax around pv/rotten

[ivory kestrel]

I will try this later today after i wake up likely

from firt tests seems fine but the unsyncs are kinda uh

also after playing no tornado for a while i feel weird

first impressions it is not that hard to hit er charges but if you mess up you can get into a sht infused fever dream if you are not careful

the sectech+finisher combo on hitting the 4cp is cool sad to see the 2cp going away could have been cool to have so evis/bp could 2 tap too

you could potentially triple finish

Now for APL things ----

Using SoD to empoer ER and goremaw seems like a thing goremaw also lets you hit 3cp

[remote sparrow]

Oh idk 0 vigor felt so cursed

Also er hits like a wet noodle. It hits like barely harder than a strike

[ivory kestrel]

yea but it is what it is ahaha

shadowcraft might be better anyway

rotten is meh

[remote sparrow]

Probably is yeah

[ivory kestrel]

actually shadowcraft might be perfect

because it disables krangled SHT that can mess up ER points

so strike/goremaw always pop 3

you can use ER to pop 5

then 4 is sec tech

[trim gorge]

er sep flag lord have mercy

[remote sparrow]

@rugged solar not sure if these 2 bugs have been reported but shuriken tornado gets benefits from rotten and pv without consuming the buffs.

basline damae wihout buffs

rotten active

pv

it can do pretty good damage haha

[rugged solar]

oh, good find

i will open a bug report

[coarse laurel]

I mean they should benefit, the bug is that they aren't consuming

This has historically been a problem with Tornado not triggering procs correctly, and likely the buff removal is handled in a similar fashion

At some point, Tornado probably needs to be re-implemented since it just has had countless similar issues over the years

[rugged solar]

yes

ill test some more

nvm, they only work on builder so secret can't be a issu

but both tornado and secret have this issues

[past fable]

#tww-subtlety message
Another thing regarding a bug

[coarse laurel]

Since all those get handled via whitelists I'd expect them to match in SimC as you mention. Just missing whitelists really.

[rugged solar]

yes, i need to go over all damage amps at some point and double check

[coarse laurel]

The 20% damage as Shadow part isn't really a 20% residual like Shadow Blades or something like that

Its just its own trigger spell

Which is basically in zero whitelists whatsoever

Don't even think it's in the class passive lol

[past fable]

It benefits from the amps though im pretty sure

[coarse laurel]

Or maybe it is in the passive finally

But it's missing some stuff for sure

[past fable]

It was doing 23.1% of the damage of rupture if i specced out of stratagems and without finality/ns

(no dd up, so dB+vt should make it 23.1%)

[coarse laurel]

Labels : 2696: Veiltouched (382017 effect#3), Veiltouched (382017 effect#4), Dark Brew (382504 effect#4), Dark Brew (382504 effect#5), Deeper Daggers (383405 effect#3), Deeper Daggers (383405 effect#4)
Affecting spells : Master of Subtlety (31665 effects: #1, #2), Rogue Tier 6 Trinket (40460 effect#1), Mastery: Potent Assassin (76803 effects: #1, #2), Mastery: Executioner (76808 effects: #1, #2), Subtlety Rogue (137035 effects: #1, #2), Outlaw Rogue (137036 effects: #1, #2), Assassination Rogue (137037 effects: #1, #2, #20, #21), Marked for Death (137619 effect#1), Shadow Dance (185313 effects: #4, #5), Ruthless Precision (193357 effect#1), Grand Melee (193358 effects: #1, #3), Deeper Stratagem (193531 effects: #1, #5), Elaborate Planning (193641 effects: #1, #2), Acrobatic Strikes (196924 effect#1), Ghostly Strike (196937 effect#3), Symbols of Death (212283 effects: #1, #2), Master Assassin (256735 effect#1), Shiv (319504 effect#3), Master Assassin's Mark (340094 effect#1), Deathly Shadows (341202 effects: #1, #2), Deathly Shadows (350964 effects: #1, #2), Grudge Match (364668 effect#1), Tight Spender (381621 effect#1), Bloody Mess (381626 effect#1), Dark Brew (382504 effects: #1, #2, #3), Replicating Shadows (382506 effect#3), Danse Macabre (393969 effects: #1, #2), Secret Stratagem (394320 effects: #1, #5), Devious Stratagem (394321 effects: #1, #5), Septic Wounds (394845 effect#1), Masterful Finish (395003 effects: #1, #3), Sudden Demise (423136 effect#1), Goremaw's Bite (426593 effect#2)

So one of the potential issues here

Is for example Secret Stratagem (394320 effects: #1, #5)

#5 (id=1033860)  : Apply Aura (6) | Add Percent Modifier (108): Spell Periodic Amount (22)
                   Base Value: 5 | Scaled Value: 5 | PvP Coefficient: 1.00000 | Misc Value: 22 | Target: Self (1)
                   Affected Spells: Rupture (1943), Crimson Tempest (121411), Internal Bleeding (154953), Weaponmaster (193536), Secret Technique (280719), Secret Technique (280720), Secret Technique (282449), Black Powder (319175), Black Powder (319190), Rupture (360826), Rupture (394031)
                   Family Flags: 20, 32, 44, 81, 95, 100

It's in the periodic mod list

But I think technically it's actually direct

                 : Not Shapeshifted (16), Initiates Combat (Enables Auto-Attack) (41), Discount Power On Miss (59), Not a Proc (105), Treat As Periodic (121), No Helpful Threat (131), Aura Points On Client (268), Allow Class Ability Procs (416)
Effects          :
#1 (id=1033358)  : School Damage (2): shadow
                   Base Value: 0 | Scaled Value: 0 | AP Coefficient: 0.04771 | PvP Coefficient: 1.00000 | Target: Enemy (6)
Description      : $@spelldesc382506

It has the flag that makes it appear Periodic

But I'm not sure that actually works for whitelisted modifiers

For Dark Brew, it's in both direct and periodic lists so idk

But yeah if it's not working on Stratagem talents, that's almost certainly why

[past fable]

Stratagems, nightstalker and finality doesnt work on it ye

The regular amps do

Or well, nightstalker snapshotted

[coarse laurel]

Finality is totally scripted so that's kinda w/e

Probably will never really work correctly with Nightstalker since it's not a real DoT or real ticks, so nothing to snapshot

Unless it just gets converted to be a residual ability and pass the damage down from the tick

[past fable]

Just odd how its not just 20% of rupture like shadowblades but instead its own convoluted dot, what can you do

[coarse laurel]

Basically ended up just being implemented like the SBS Conduit

This is how Sudden Fractures worked too

[rugged solar]

https://github.com/SimCMinMax/WoW-BugTracker/issues/1141

[rugged solar]

is nightstalker being active in subterfuge in the sim?

[rugged solar]

quickly re-iterating on finality
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/a3nVAGDwPN4MvVDA1JSz43

(so another 0.1%, yay)

[remote sparrow]

i do hope that they either dont fix this or just make tornado not benefit from it, if the ticks start consuming the buffs they make the playtsyle a lot more convoluted and weird

[rugged solar]

ye not sure

[past fable]

🌪️ 🪓

(not related to your finality optimizations at all, but im pulling from the sim)
Casting slice and dice during blades in the opener doesnt seem correct. Its procced premed 4 times before this already so its not even in pandemic range

Also not sure if you compared using vanish during blades VS outside of blades (non dust), its probably worth to get the extra damage from shadowstrikes & nightstalker in blades rather than getting an extra ~6 cp or something outside cooldowns but worth checking

[rugged solar]

i haven't looked at shadow blades optimizations

but moment

[remote sparrow]

i tried fixing this, i think sepsis tornado builds always snd in the first dance after tornado durng blades, pushing ST to last gcd or something

need to double check

[past fable]

Oh ye i missread your note about shadow blades optimizations as in optimizing the shadowblades line itself, but it obviously encompasses doing other things inside the blades window as well

My bad

[rugged solar]

oh no

[past fable]

This is not inside dance, its among the last 3 globals of blades. But seeing as it has ~18 seconds left of snd + flag+blades i dont see why it would refresh snd

[rugged solar]

not the use of shadowblades itself but optimizations around it

because the cooldown is so diffrent

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/53CVcnDpq416mWeDBjHMrn

fixes the above

but let me check more

[past fable]

I suspect theres some optimizations to be had for aoe with SnD now that its more potent with shadowcraft, but thats probably for another day

[rugged solar]

seems neutal or positive on other builds, so thats good

[past fable]

Non-premed ones too?

[rugged solar]

moment, lets see

yep

[rugged solar]

not a gain

on a quick look

[past fable]

Ye shadowstrike just does too much more damage than gloomblade now

[rugged solar]

i am somwhat concerned abotu DM

[past fable]

Makes sense to use it with cds

[rugged solar]

because DM did work so well because of gb value

[past fable]

Its still going to be an insane talent even if you stop at 4 stacks instead of 5, but ye

Might still be worthwhile in aoe to use a strike

[rugged solar]

maybe its worth in shb

shb allows some amount of optimization

[past fable]

Obviously its gonna change a bit as the APL changes, but as of right now theres substantially more rng than the previous iteration of sub, which is kinda unfortunate

[rugged solar]

we lose crit from cb

and shb will elad to a higher range

[past fable]

CB itself didnt actually reduce it by that much

Its 12% without cb and 11.6% with, on live that is

[rugged solar]

interessting

i assumed it would lower it more

[past fable]

My guess would be that it sometimes doesnt get enough cp and sometimes misses a dance somewhere with the ptr sims

[rugged solar]

not sure entirely

but 4p and shadowcraft cp refill will make cp income a bit higher

[past fable]

Ye from looking at a couple of logs it doesnt always get 2x in every blades, sometimes it just havent gotten enough cdr for it

So hopefully its gonna go down a bit with the new tier

[rugged solar]

gb in dance...

thats a lot of complexity for 0.1% dps

and it becomes a loss if you add the tier set

hmm

[rugged solar]

hmm

currently investigating some GwB improvements

^ This one is promising, even bigger without tier

[remote sparrow]

what is the logic for it

[rugged solar]

moment, ill post the sim once i tested some more things

[rugged solar]

slightly better even

currently waaiting for sims to finish ^^

[rotund flint]

https://tenor.com/view/star-gif-16789607377123159596

[rugged solar]

had to re-start them to be more specific

now with more copy statements

^^

[remote sparrow]

what is the best non sepsiis build we have so far?

[rugged solar]

inev instead of sepsis probably

[remote sparrow]

Imeant kinda like this

the 2 dust 1 vigot is the basic rotten sepsis build but takes pv

the highest one is the same but dd over pv

1 dust tea is actually a 2 minute build that taes swift

the sim, sends the second blades at like 1:55 or smoething so its very close to 2 min.

and its still very very close to the other dust builds as a 2 min build

[coarse laurel]

Should be

[rugged solar]

perfect

[rugged solar]

still waiting for sims ^^

thats a total of 40 sims, i used virtual desktops because nobody can tell me that 20+ tabs in one window is good to navigate

[lilac crescent]

This is why we must begin naming sim reports

40 tabs of "advanced sim"

[ivory kestrel]

i have 100 tabs open rn ehehe

[rugged solar]

you would need to chang the header of every sim

[ivory kestrel]

i wish there was more of a way to search for things ye

[rugged solar]

raidbots still would not allow it to be easy to navigate

[rugged solar]

i don't think keeping tabs open is good unless you use a extension that disables discards

i get the idea behind the practice, you want to keep it in memory so you don't need to re-load the page entirely

[lilac crescent]

would have to do this for every sim yes

[rugged solar]

but brosers will no discard the page and reload, so it isn't rly that practical

[lilac crescent]

but would make it a little easier to know what it is

[ivory kestrel]

well memory is not much of problem i have 128GB

but i still have many things left to read etc

for sims i usually make a new window

and group them there

[rugged solar]

problem is

even if i named the sim

[ivory kestrel]

yea that is

[rugged solar]

would still just show "advanced"

[ivory kestrel]

they are advanced bro

[rugged solar]

so my own idea does not work

[lilac crescent]

It would change "Advanced Sim" to the name

[rugged solar]

oh right

changing the actor name would also put it in the website header

[rugged solar]

so the "tabs" would have the name "advanced sim - <actor name> - ...."

is it in the tab name too

[lilac crescent]

only when complete

[rugged solar]

ah nice

[lilac crescent]

else is shows

[ivory kestrel]

cool

[lilac crescent]

underutilised piece of raidbots for sure

especially for clarity

[rugged solar]

i mean, if i need to do multiple cobinations for talents/or target counts

it is usually not practical

because the sims are "throw away"

but nice feature

[lilac crescent]

ya for anything that isn't massive combiantions it's real nice

[ivory kestrel]

i think you can make a script that names things by an order

[rugged solar]

current latest

[past fable]

When they fixed the double dipping on sectech they didnt actually fix the double dipping on instant poison (from DB) so it is still benefitting from DB twice ingame. Which it doesnt do in simc now

On the topic of damage amps working inconsistently fuu

[rugged solar]

i did test it the other day

and only closed the bug for secret

[past fable]

Ye but my point was that koji probably assumed they fixed both of em (which is a reasonable assumption), because in simc its not double dipping anymore

[rugged solar]

true

the damage impact is probably ignorable

[past fable]

Its like +200 dps

A small step for the nondusters

[rugged solar]

sepsis might be the bigger step for non dusters

or the complete opposite

[remote sparrow]

this is just a comparison of the builds for ST and M+

ST

M+

baseline : subtelty is the sepsis rotten dd build
best M+: the one fuu suggested as best M+ with 2 dust and db no shadowcraft

1 dust is dropping one dust point for shadowcraft

no dust is the classic db + shadowcraft + goremaw+ dd

its interesting that 1 ust shadowcraft is prforming similar to the 2 dust build without shadowcraft. from what I saw the 2nd dust point is usually dead i

the sims usually send the 2nd vanish around 105-110 seconds. instead of 90. so the 2nd dust point is quite litarally dead outside of reseting symbols in the blades gos

in ST that is.

in AOE its more usseful because u actually have enough cps to send dance often and not have to wait

[coarse laurel]

@rugged solar @past fable @ivory kestrel just fyi the Shadowcraft refund should be in now as well as set bonus CP Gen.

Set bonus damage is still wip. I need to look more into how it’s calculated. Seems purely residual since there are no coefficients on the pet spells.

Which means entirely scripted. So you guys may need to confirm all of what applies to it. Or if it’s just using the damage of the base ability. (Pre or post mitigation?)

Although not sure how that’s working for Shadow Rupture. If it just snapshots the entire damage or what.

[ivory kestrel]

Shadow rupture will need a bit of a writeup

but shadow eviscerate gets the phys dmg and copies it at 55%(with 4p) effectiveness iirc

i actually havent checked if it gets pre mitigation or post

[past fable]

Its post

[coarse laurel]

When you say 55% is that just base 2pc or including 4pc

[ivory kestrel]

edited base is 50

[coarse laurel]

Gotcha

[past fable]

BP & Evis clones benefit from dB & dd but not vt. Works with 4p. So ~65% total```

[ivory kestrel]

As for rupture it basically snaps EVERYTHING in its moment of use

[past fable]

And the rupture proc snapshots your current stats & amps (like dance+danse+sophic) and calculates based on how much it would do if all ticks happened at the of the proc

[ivory kestrel]

to get the 6 sec dot

[rugged solar]

^ rupture proc is wild

[ivory kestrel]

so trinkets/sophic/dance and all class amps

finality NS all the cowabunga

[coarse laurel]

Ok

Strange that VT doesn’t work if DD does

[past fable]

Indeed

[coarse laurel]

Neither are whitelisted so this seems 100% scripted

[ivory kestrel]

a more common ocurrence than wanted

[coarse laurel]

Considering VT was fixed for SecTec I would have thought they would be using some generic shadow clone script

[past fable]

Its also strange that the amps work on the evis part but not the rupture part

[ivory kestrel]

yes maybe they used old replicating code or smth

the one in WoD not the talent rn

[coarse laurel]

Set bonuses are gonna be the death of me

[rugged solar]

i do think the tier is overly complicated

[valid robin]

Overly complex just for flavor reasons

[coarse laurel]

Question--how does this work on pandemic refreshes? Does it use the entire DoT amount at it's final duration? Or just the "base" amount for a full Rupture not being extended.

[past fable]

The entire thing, so a full pandemic proc does more than a base one

[coarse laurel]

Cool ok. I think I'm mostly done then

This has been a giagantic pain lol

[turbid pulsar]

gotta love scripting

why make it easy

[ivory kestrel]

also remember to put some hate comments for the next poor soul that has to check the 12 diff vers of NS