Like you could symbols prepull around 10-15 strike (rotten) trinket sepsis flag rupture dance (another rotten here) do ur dance stuff symbols comes up for another rotten vanish strike into 2nd dance (tier rotten) into symbols once tier gets to 3 another rotten
#tc-subtlety
agile nymph
valid robin
ye i dont think you need to do it that early
ivory kestrel
you get rotten on first strike
valid robin
my RL wont change our prepull timer to 23 for rotten
ivory kestrel
but yea 10-15 could work
agile nymph
So you’d get 4 rottens in opener with basically perma symbols
valid robin
but 15 is doable
ivory kestrel
first strike to full cp flag rupture
sepsis storm dance evis?
but second rotten gets wasted
agile nymph
Or just symbols before initial strike and you’d lose a rotten but get some symbols uptime in first 4 seconds
agile nymph
Yea you would get the pe
ivory kestrel
that strike gets to full problem is FW
valid robin
well
past fable
If you spec out of swift death it goes to 30 seconds, you cant cheese it
ivory kestrel
yea so lets just ignore the free strike
we already have 1 PV from initial
so it would be after the rupture
dance stab
and you lose 1 rotten but are fine
valid robin
ye i dont think the sepsis strike is worth anything, just delays opener
ivory kestrel
you also lose 1 rotten
agile nymph
Yea exactly
valid robin
why do you lose a rotten
valid robin
what symbols
ivory kestrel
the ones after first strike
although it might just be on cd but then using it on pull is the same
valid robin
i mean i do think fuu:s initial sim just had rotten prepull and it was 0.7% for whatever reason
so i do think its worth to rotten prepull
ivory kestrel
yea because it aligns better
valid robin
and not after using first strike
ivory kestrel
yea it is prepull
rugged solar
If you spec out of swift death it goes to 30 seconds, you cant cheese it
i can just set it to 30 too
well 29
or so, the number is fairly irrelevant
ivory kestrel
yea lets not try prepulls of 20+ i think those dont fly
valid robin
i mean
ivory kestrel
i do think easiest is just using it on first strike and forget
about pre pull thingies
agile nymph
Just symbols strike trinket sepsis flag rupture dance gloom sectech strike evis vanish strike evis finish dance > next dance gloom sectech symbols at 3 seconds on tier symbols and rotten gloom there as well
valid robin
i dont think the focus should be on some prepull cheese
rugged solar
i dont think the focus should be on some prepull cheese
it isn't but it is also a relevant part
agile nymph
That’s how I’d assume it would go since pv lingering is a thing
valid robin
aint nobody gonna talent around shit for 1 rotten on opener
rugged solar
no
i think the one thing i mentioned is enough
i did dm koji about pre pull stuff as the apl condition i know of all don't seem to work
but we can put that aside
valid robin
i think you can make a rotten rule to never use shadowstrike if rotten + premed is up
rugged solar
and focus on other issues
valid robin
cus that can break things
agile nymph
Well no you’d also need something for subsequent vanishes
valid robin
i mean the opener one can be fixed by adding "if snd is up"
cus without SND, you dont get the extra cps
so its fine
agile nymph
Like if symbols comes up in a spot you’d hold it but you’re going to vanish in the dance you’d just send symbols because it will refund off vanish
ivory kestrel
that is a totally diff thing
ivory kestrel
and in that case you would SoD inside dance after the premed strike and just stab
then you vanish strike
rugged solar
wdym exacly the opener?
ivory kestrel
push already said the solution kinda
valid robin
there's a lot of fluff right now
agile nymph
To where it strikes after prepull symbols but after that it uses them for glooms
ivory kestrel
consuming rotten with strike only if snd is not up
ivory kestrel
that one should fix things on opener and not krangle other things
valid robin
but after opener, you should never strike on rotten if you have premed up
quite simple rule i think
agile nymph
Yea
ivory kestrel
yea those 2 should fix some things
then have to check if another premed one krangles but i think they are good
agile nymph
But yea in the case symbols comes up right before a vanish dance you could dance gloom sectech symbols gloom evis strike evis vanish strike evis @ivory kestrel
Or something along those lines for the cases where youd get a free symbols refund
valid robin
have you played this ingame
when you vanish you have high lingering + PV
you definitely just gloomblade it
and send symbols instantly
ivory kestrel
yes
agile nymph
Wym
valid robin
i mean that you will always vanish after a dance ends
and you will always get symbols back
and you will always have high lingering + PV
so you just symbols-gloomblade and go on with your life
ivory kestrel
yea and even if symbols comes up when you are dancing you just use a stab instead of vanish strike
agile nymph
Yea I’m talking about the specific instance where symbols comes up before you’re about to dance
valid robin
ye
ivory kestrel
then after dance you vanish
agile nymph
And you’re low lingering stacks
ivory kestrel
and then you have that symbols for after the second dance
agile nymph
Even if you’re going to vanish after that dance?
agile nymph
Yea that’s what I’m saying to do
valid robin
this
thing is quite confusing, so it would be good if you type out actionable lines
like
less fluff, more just "do this"
valid robin
ye all good, but like it would be nice to have APL-style rules without it being apl code
if you know what i mean
ivory kestrel
in case symbols come as dance comes and you want to vanish you already have all the things you do with sepsis and flag
so have to think about those
agile nymph
Fair enough
valid robin
like
how do you make that into APL code
if you cant make it into APL
its not going to happen in the sim
what kind of rule can you do to make it happen, i guess
valid robin
i think it would be good to get tfd to work with this talent build, but its prob difficult
ivory kestrel
and nvm that line it uses tfd
but lets do that one way later
first thing is the opener SoD seems ok
valid robin
tfd can work if you pre-build to 2-3 cps before pressing dance
valid robin
but you dont want to use gloomblade or strike
ivory kestrel
the idea for tfd is you build 4-5 blades sepsis flag finish strike dance
ivory kestrel
it does
valid robin
cus both strike and gloomblade give 5 cps
ivory kestrel
strike + dance
valid robin
what do you finish the tfd cps with
ivory kestrel
is 7 cps
ivory kestrel
then you use evis as first global
valid robin
but then you dont have fw?
ivory kestrel
"I found that sometimes while doing whole combos that don't have any builder FW can go down so putting a check to storm if FW has less than x secs on the sepsis flag could be
beneficial. As in if FW has less than 4-5 secs last builder before sepsis should be storm to get FW as it would time out before first evis"
that is not an opener dance
"I found that using sepsis with blades at 4-5 cp into flag finisher then using the free strike from sepsis to always enter with a PV stack for backstab to be a sure win as it gets to use
the power of tfd and also get the strike used."
so you would have FW from before
and checking if before sepsi you have 6 secs of fw
otherwise storm
agile nymph
Wouldn’t you have silent storm for each tfd
agile nymph
You’d gloom right after that evis into sectech no?
ivory kestrel
it would be on low lingering that this happens always btw
valid robin
happening
ivory kestrel
yea that is why one by one
agile nymph
Yep
ivory kestrel
those 2 apl things should make tfd better than swift
and im busy but the conditions would be if sepsis strike available and flag buff is up strike
valid robin
ye i mean i think the only thing keeping tfd from being better is APL for rotten being very weird with it
ivory kestrel
then if PV is available and 2-3 cps dance
valid robin
cus swift death is a shit talent
ivory kestrel
and for the storm the line i made is already self explanatory
valid robin
but it does give you more rotten buffs
agile nymph
Ok so for the APL thing if you’re going to vanish but inev tier symbols would get you into that vanish before it hits 3 seconds to send normal symbols send it anyways to consume rotten buff in dance because free refund how’s that
ivory kestrel
if symbols comes off cd inside dance you would SoD after the premed strike
ivory kestrel
but leave that one for later
firs the cd usage ones and dance centric ones
then edge cases
valid robin
lingering > dance amp
valid robin
nah you can still vanish
valid robin
you can vanish without pressing symbols
ivory kestrel
ye
agile nymph
But you’re putting off dance then
ivory kestrel
instead of clipping symbols inside dance what you do is
valid robin
ok so this is why you dont need to do the 15 second prepull rotten btw
ivory kestrel
also the good thing about this
is that it fixes the sec tech+ cb double use on flag
agile nymph
If you wait till after dance to symbols gloom then finish you can vanish strike after
ivory kestrel
because you use 4 globals after first dance ends
yea dance
then SoD stab finish strike (finish and build 2 cp if tfd)enter dance
agile nymph
Yea that works
ivory kestrel
man this no tfd things make my brain go bad
agile nymph
Lingering and pv are annoying
ivory kestrel
yea that is why i think 1 point in improv dance for other things is better than lingering but have to do more lines for that one
agile nymph
then SoD stab finish strike (finish and build 2 cp if tfd)enter dance
Wouldn’t you just enter dance and hold symbols for when tiers is low for another lingering pv gloom
ivory kestrel
im content to making this build good first
yea with no tfd you enter dance after strike
with tfd i guess you would finish then storm? and enter dance
or just stab anyway because who cares about PV that much
agile nymph
I’m assuming push is cooking up moving symbols in opener to juice glooms outside of dance
ivory kestrel
you do get 2 buffed PV+lingering in second dance if you use SoD after premed strike finisher
past fable
Ye what felt the best when i played with tfd was:
(basic ass)Gloom >dance > sectech >rotten gloom >evis > strike > evis > symbols > rotten gloom
Thats not the full opener though, just general dances
ivory kestrel
yea that one is my go to with tfd in mind
valid robin
ROTTEN gigachad opening sequence:
Symbols(prepull, 1 sec before or whatever)
Strike
Trinket
Sepsis
Flag
Rupture
Blades/Storm
Dance (TFD)/Eviscerate
Gloomblade
Sectech
Shadowstrike
Evis
Vanish/Shadowstrike
-Dance ends-
Evis
Symbols+Gloomblade
Eviscerate
Gloomblade x333333
(farm dance cd)
Gloomblade to 2-3 cp
Dance (TFD)+Sectech
Gloomblade
Evis
Shadowstrike
Evis
Shadowstrike
Gloom or Evis depending on CPs
Symbols+Gloomblade
Evis
FARM CDR
ivory kestrel
ye
agile nymph
Yea basically that
ivory kestrel
you do get dance back after vanish + 1finisher
valid robin
sec tech 2nd finisher cus of flag stacks
idk if it matters
but thats why
on first dance
ivory kestrel
i need to try more
past fable
Why would we want the symbols out of dance
ivory kestrel
but maybe you want it first finisher to get the flag empowered+cb
agile nymph
Lingering gloom
valid robin
because gloomblade with lingering + PV does more dmg
past fable
But then youre not getting 2x lingering gloom in your next dance?
valid robin
and ur saccing PV stacks by using too many gloomblades in dance
valid robin
But then youre not getting 2x lingering gloom in your next dance?
?
its a 1/2 lingering
the value of it drops RAPIDLY
but ur essentially getting 2 PV stacks
instead of 1
if you gloomblade twice in dance
think its more worth to get another PV for post dance
ivory kestrel
that is why i like 1 point in improv dance instead of lingering
agile nymph
So you’d basically gloom to finish then gloom once and go into 2nd dance
ivory kestrel
but i don't mind if we do lingering things meanwhile
agile nymph
Then use symbols again when that dance falls off
valid robin
but the synergy between PV and lingering cannot be ignored
ivory kestrel
yea
agile nymph
Biggest juiced glooms
valid robin
so sure you get 1 more PV stack if you play 7 sec dance
but you dont have 50% more dmg on them
ivory kestrel
subterfuge to the rescue maybe
valid robin
💀
ivory kestrel
as you vanish strike inside dance then strike again and get 2 PV +lingering stabs
past fable
But also the sequence you posted assumes a 7s dance, and most of those extra seconds across the fight would be spent on a buffed evis rather than a shadowstrike no?
past fable
Theres 7 globals before "dance ends"
valid robin
yes
agile nymph
The first one but it doesn’t matter cuz you’re using a finisher regardless
valid robin
thats just a mistake
the vanish strike should still be worth doing in dance rather than out of dance and in lingering territory
ivory kestrel
i actually dont vanish inside dance because you get free sepsis pop for another strike
that is why i also dont like lingering
it is just counterproductive
valid robin
the rules we have for the current build shouldd still apply in that you dont want to vanish out of dance because ur just giving up lingering dmg
agile nymph
It’s too strong
ivory kestrel
1 point in improv dance solves many problems
not really it is not too strong
because it messes up other things that can edge wins
for a 50% buff that decays
vs a 40% that does not
agile nymph
Also works with pv
valid robin
so its 40% stronger gloomblade thats replicated by 50%
ivory kestrel
yea but lose also an empowered evis
valid robin
doesnt matter
ivory kestrel
that has SoD+dark shadow+4p
valid robin
gloomblade does more dmg
ivory kestrel
and also lose vanish power when outside dance
valid robin
i mean 40% + 50% (rotten) + 45-50% lingering
ivory kestrel
and lose 1 pv stack every vanish because subterfuge may be a loss with lingering
ivory kestrel
so you are losing dmg on 2 or 3 fronts for lingering
valid robin
ur deleting lingering dmg by using vanish outside of dance
its bad
well lingering is more dmg than all those fronts
ivory kestrel
when you can take it out get a talent that is a bit less but with more modifications ends up better
same thing with sepsis on assa
just have to look at the whole building
not saying it will be for sure better tho
ivory kestrel
that is why improving lingering is not bad itself
valid robin
seem kinda hardstuck on subterfuge ngl
lingering and PV has obvious synergy
and lingering and subterfuge has anti-synergy
ivory kestrel
nah i dont mind lingering at all just making the rules is harder
valid robin
rotten also only works on 1 gloomblade
so the extra stacks from subterfuge
dont get as much value
ivory kestrel
yea it is for the second stab inside dance but we can keep going about lingering meanwhile
valid robin
2nd stab in dance?
ivory kestrel
yea but that is another build things with 7 secs dance etc
first for the SoD and vanish usage with lingering
valid robin
ngl this is very confusing, i cannot see why you would build around PV stacks when its probably the weakest spec talent we have apart from swift death. Its a neat bonus on the way to dust and rotten
but i wouldnt build a spec around it
lingering 2/2 is like 5500 dps for me (in current build)
around 5%
1 point prob like 2.5%
i dont think PV at 2/2 is even 2%
agile nymph
ur deleting lingering dmg by using vanish outside of dance
This is what I was talking about earlier if you have symbols come up right before your vanish dance if you held symbols for the gloom after dance you’d lose the cdr where as if you held vanish you’d lose lingering but if you used symbols early in dance for a pv rotten gloom you’d get symbols right back up for lingering after said dance
valid robin
This is what I was talking about earlier if you have symbols come up right befor...
ye its prob worth sending the symbols
in dance
i mean it definitely is
cus it just gets reset
agile nymph
That’s the other symbols rule I’d say to add
rugged solar
that did not work out as expected
but probably need to catch up with what you guys discussed
because my guild needs me for keys
ivory kestrel
don't worry the clear things are the conditions for the strike on pull
then the whole opener is better scripted with tfd imo instead of swift
that push put out just after first dance ends it is a bit diff
that is what we are talking about rn
then there is a thing about when symbols comes off cd as you would vanish but let me tell you about that one
you can vanish later
with no problems
send symbols inside dance
agile nymph
I need to reword that for fuu
valid robin
yes
agile nymph
One sec
agile nymph
Additional Symbols logic for subsequent vanish dances - if symbols comes up before said dance to where current logic would hold it just send it for rotten/pv buff regardless of overwrite in dance since vanish will refund the cd
@rugged solar
ivory kestrel
Basically use SoD on the finisher just after the premed strike
no need to say much more
rugged solar
i feel like
ivory kestrel
eleem actually made a good comment way back
rugged solar
the logical condition for me would be to use symbols earlier if vanish is up
because you cdr it with vanish w/e
agile nymph
Yea since you only do it every min
valid robin
so i think you can tie it to flag cd
ivory kestrel
yea it has to be an in dance condition i thin restricting vanish to flag buff
or cd yea
for the SoD it can be the same
valid robin
so if flag is less than 10 seconds off, you symbols earlier
ivory kestrel
use it if no premed or another rotten buff is up
that does not happen often btw
most of the time you get SoD as you would enter dance
past fable
that did not work out as expected
All of these are individual changes correct? The 0.7% does not include all the lower ones right?
ivory kestrel
then do the one eleem posted
agile nymph
Then there’s also tfd to work out to see if it’s a gain 
Rotten build go slap for farm
ivory kestrel
tfd should be easy gains
swift death introduces more problems as it makes SoD go off cd way before dances sometimes
valid robin
i dont think we have an apl that prebuilds for tfd
which is the only way you can play it with rotten
ivory kestrel
i think there was one
but i think both lanes for the FW watch out and the build to x should be solid gains
and the sepsis normal dance usage with tfd
for all builds
not talking anything of the other one
agile nymph
Ain’t no way wasting 1/6th of dance storming is worth over prebuild
past fable
Or you just send a 4/5 cp first finisher to save global rather than prebuild or waste a global
ivory kestrel
easier to prebuild
past fable
Ye but anything that delays dance (if its ready) is usually noticeable loss of sims
ivory kestrel
you dont really delay
you can even pool likely if you know cd is coming in 2-3 secs
past fable
So it wouldnt surprise me if dance > 5 cp evis > gloom is better than prebuilding and wasting a global
past fable
Most of the time you end up in that scenario because you finish when dance has like 5s left though
ivory kestrel
yea
you snap out ALL the energy
well after that finish you stab once then send dance
valid robin
like with negative haste and no imp sht, you sometimes have to build to 1-2, and gloomblade right before dance is off cd and then dance with tfd and finish
valid robin
simply cus building to 6+ is not feasible in a short amount of time with this energy gain
ivory kestrel
so that is already 5-6
agile nymph
Yea and worst comes to worst you’d delay dance by 1 gcd
ivory kestrel
yea
valid robin
by just being attentive
agile nymph
Yea even if you’re on a mechanic can just shuriken throw before you get back to boss and dance
turbid pulsar
like with negative haste and no imp sht, you sometimes have to build to 1-2, and...
glad its not just me doing this
rugged solar
All of these are individual changes correct? The 0.7% does not include all the l...
its combined
not individual
past fable
Ok
rugged solar
so it loses 0.1 trying to use strike/gb better
but not sure it is a good condition
but can look at it more if not in a key
^^
valid robin
man sepsis is so awkward with this
you cant dance when its up
actually have to cancelaura the buff?
i cba
rugged solar
playing devils advocad here
this is a bug
because premed does not proc because "its not stealth"
and you can't use dance only during stealth
ivory kestrel
u can dance with sepsis np
maybe something to do with your ui
you can see on both my clips i dance with the free strike
up
past fable
Ye the sepsis buff is not consumed when you dance strike
It is consumed when you vanish+strike though (outside of dance)
past fable
I think the non-tfd version feels better to play just because you dont have to scuff your sepsis strike so much tbh
And you dont end up holding dance for like 1-2 seconds because you either finish when its at like 4s left or need to prebuild like with tfd
valid robin
tfd is prob better tho
past fable
I dont get why swift would be taint
valid robin
not a fan
ivory kestrel
i just say from experience swift makes things worse instead of better
but maybe you people try it out a bit more and see if it could be a win
not imo
it is possible that it edges out some desyncs
past fable
Idk feel like you might focus too much on getting "the perfect dance sequence" rather than just sending it on cd
ivory kestrel
it is more about not clipping it sometimes too
it comes off cd like 3 or 4 secs before dance
past fable
Ye i think you just send it and clips the duration to get a dance of a second earlier in that scenario rather than holding symbols for 7 seconds
Build seemed kinda cursed at first but im sortof vibing with it
Getting a second sectech of in a single flag window feels great
ivory kestrel
yes getting two sec tech + cb in is good
low breach
Why would we use this? Does the sim just need an update since its 1% behind the flag build on st
ivory kestrel
many reasons that need to be explained but same as people think i overthing PV and subterfuge i also think there is value in that point in improv dance and tfd instead of swift death and 1 in lingering
but first we have to stamp all the wins for the general dust builds
then we can fork
rugged solar
not much on pc today but might be able to look further into rotten in the evening
past fable
Things i feel that we should investigate regarding rotten:
- Is the sepsis shadowstrike here really worth it as you end up wasting all of the combo points from rotten (it happens fairly frequently)?
valid robin
nah
past fable
- How long is it worth it to hold symbols for? In this example i got here its holding it for 10 seconds
valid robin
you would just not use the sepsis strike
past fable
- Why its continues to use slice and dice during shadow dance with the rotten apl
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c7qnxVEeCenkezRBxbCbMS/simc Is the sim with the sample apl i took pics from
agile nymph
Would also be nice knowing if there’s gains with tfd
Based on the prebuild stuff from yesterday
rugged solar
good input
#1 need to test if using a finisher is the best option there, think that might be better than cutting out the shadowstrike
#2 think symbols can have quite some improvements for dust, esp. erlier uses if vanish is up
#3 snd is a very infrequent used spell, it is not a gain to restrict it, so its more a consequence of the low impact
neither is probably a difficult apl change, will test tomorrow. I want to try different symbols conditions
lilac crescent
Can we get a rerun on using tornado during dance in aoe - is it a loss when done as following: sstorm > BP > sstorm > sectech > Tornado > BP spam
or is it better to just hold until after dance
or preferably before
past fable
If it comes up during dance theres no reason not to use it during dance. Its the same as using a storm to build cp since theyre both 1 global
I suppose if its literally the last global you'd lose some shuriken amp, but besides that
lilac crescent
it's more that it's a zero damage global in dance
and last tier it was a damage loss overall to press it in dance
I recall ~0.8% gain to pressing outside of dance
especially as the times where it comes off cd specifically during dance is very rare
past fable
it's more that it's a zero damage global in dance
Its not a zero damage global, its the same as a shuriken storm
Just because it does damage at the end of your 1 second gcd rather than at the start doesnt make it 0 damage
lilac crescent
playing around with the apl and adding a &!buff.shadow_dance.up to the tornado condition does come out at a loss
I changed
actions.cds+=/shuriken_tornado,if=variable.snd_condition&buff.symbols_of_death.up&combo_points<=2&(!buff.premeditation.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)
to
actions.cds+=/shuriken_tornado,if=variable.snd_condition&buff.symbols_of_death.up&!buff.shadow_dance.up&combo_points<=2&(!buff.premeditation.up|spell_targets.shuriken_storm>4)
I don't think I did it right 
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qFdb39bEepRNdvXF6GQaFu Think I did it right this time 
lilac crescent
this seems like a weird series of events in the default profile tho
past fable
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mMKMGDaCbQNHGnDpxQYTzc
Im sure you would get to this eventually anyway @rugged solar but swapping to vers gigastack seems to be better with the rotten. I mostly checked since i thought the cloak proccing crit seemed kinda redundant since we just 100% crit a lot of our spells anyway with rotten and cb 
ivory kestrel
expected sepsis and others get huge % crit from free from talents
rugged solar
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mMKMGDaCbQNHGnDpxQYTzc
Im sure you would ...
oh nice
it can be funny because build change can heavily change stat profiles
did notice that a bit on assassination
rugged solar
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qFdb39bEepRNdvXF6GQaFu Think I did it rig...
tornado into dance was not a 6% damage gain haha
but nice tra
*try
rugged solar
thats the problem rly
rugged solar
2. How long is it worth it to hold symbols for? In this example i got here its h...
^ this seems to be "not using symbols" because symbols is up
not because it delays it
valid robin
So it doesnt use symbols more than the ”prepull symbols”
And it loses uptime
Not exactly a shock that it doesnt increase dps
rugged solar
So it doesnt use symbols more than the ”prepull symbols”
huh
past fable
No it uses it more often
valid robin
Dont think the apl line did anything
13.7 vs 13.6
Intervals of around 23 seconds
On both
past fable
baseline is 13.1
rugged solar
i did variations of it
valid robin
Looking at the top sim
The top sim had the issue that it was holding symbols for too long
And that doesnt seem to change in the ”aggressive symbols usage”
past fable
Idk it seems to use it more aggressively, ie it uses it a couple of seconds before dance is ready sometimes
Which should indeed lower the uptime
valid robin
Ye i mean that was not the idea i think
The problem was that if you presymbols, its not using it until 25 seconds in
Which is basically just saccing a symbols use
Cus you vanish after first dance and still wait
Still needs the dance check
But it could use symbols right as dance ends
You can prob make some line that checks for dance cd (so it doesnt hold symbols for too long) and one that uses symbols at high lingering stacks 40+ (with 1/2)
Which would mean it happens right as dance ends which is how you might end up doing it in some cases
And after you use symbols into vanish, you have dance again, so the dance cd check stops it from using symbols instantly again and instead uses it as the 2nd dance is over cus of high lingering
And you might think the post dance symbols is a waste, but you get a full cd reset from the following vanish so ur just losing a use if you dont use it there, even if it gets reduced by the dance symbols pandemic
rugged solar
this was a diffrent approach
but i think i need to be more specific to add more uptime or lose no uptime for it
past fable
Ye i mean that was not the idea i think
That is what i was asking yes
rugged solar
why did it delay tho
was symbols up
because thats the reason i can see it delaying
also the "pre pull" symbols" is a "smybols on pull" right now in the apl
so it starts with symbols on 25 sec cd
it using 2x dance and inev could be enough to cause the delay maybe
past fable
Not really related to rotten specifically but we should probably start running double step for our ST builds. There is almost no difference with imp shuriken to step anymore as we have higher crit rates
And even when rotten ditches most of the crit gear you still pretty much never need it as you'll always get it from rotten gloom anyway
lilac crescent
Not really related to rotten specifically but we should probably start running d...
ya like in my gear
turbid pulsar
its not worth playing imp storm until the sec your gloomblade doesent crit (non rotten build ofc)
remote sparrow
^ unless you really need the second step its not worth it imo. if you do get unlucky it can really mess up your opener.
valid robin
In a rotten build its fine tho
Cus of the 100% crit gloom at the start of dance
So for that build specifically its fine
The rotten build might be more ahead than first assumed since it also wants less crit
So doing some stat changes it comes out above the regular build
Even pre any APL changes
lilac crescent
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mMKMGDaCbQNHGnDpxQYTzc
Im sure you would ...
Yeah eleem posted some gear changes last night
rugged solar
Not really related to rotten specifically but we should probably start running d...
we made this discussion in s1 already
*discovery
the storm optimization becomes almost irrelevant on high enogh crit
had less time than i wanted today for tc stuff, had to do some irl stuff, 2 keys with the guild, had a discord meeting and spend half an hour fixing my power supply (by fixing i mean finding a old one that i patched up to work)
ivory kestrel
for the subter one you really do need storm
but the normal one has no problems i guess
although it DOES help for the line that takes into account the interaction of sepsis then flag strike into dance
if FW is 5 secs or less
first evis gets krangled
you could use sec tech instead but i quite dont like that idea
and the phys hit would also lose some dmg anyway
"I found that sometimes while doing whole combos that don't have any builder FW can go down so putting a check to storm if FW has less than x secs on the sepsis flag could be
beneficial. As in if FW has less than 4-5 secs last builder before sepsis should be storm to get FW as it would time out before first evis"
this happens quite often
if you are not careful
remote sparrow
doing a lot of dummy hitting and looking at the sim casts, for rotten the main issue with the sims right now seems to start AFTER the second vanish. basically, ignoring the cp overcap and everything else, the issue is inside the dances. dance comes up usually before flag/sepsis/blades and so the sims starts dance, but pretty much 4,5,6 gcd of dance end up being flag, sepsis, baldes gloomblade. instead of actually useful abilities. on a target dummy I am simming around 89.5k on a 6 minute fight (trying 6 because it seems to be an awkward time for the sims), vs in game, i am pretty much doing anywhere from 94-98k (with highrolls over 100k) instead after 6 minutes. I've attached damage breakdowns, and you can see the main difference in damage is coming from Evis, strike, secret technique, shadowblades damage. I am suspecting evis and strike because dances are wasted in sims, and secret technique because the sims a lot of times gets the akaari hits outside of dance so weaker ST i guess.
^ this is on a lower end (around 94k, I've had high rolls as high as 103k)
the # of casts are almost identical btw. like within 1-2 for evis, identical for ST/flag/blades/bomb/torch/sepsis, and within 3-4 for gb
I also tried optimizing playing around lingering a bit more which seems to add a bit more lingering damage to my build vs sims. Also I usually tend to ignore first sepsis strike but I usually end up using the second one.
valid robin
Could this just be a sample error or something that happens routinely?
remote sparrow
I tried this like 20 times or so, the minimum i did was around 92k but that was because of low roll on item procs and stuff. my rogue abilities were still higher.
rugged solar
oh nice
valid robin
I tried this like 20 times or so, the minimum i did was around 92k but that was ...
weird
ur evis looks similar
but sec tech has some diff
and shadowblades value is diff
remote sparrow
ill try some more and post some differences later today.
past fable
The blue marked thing we've talked about before but its certainly not great. But an easy fix would probably be to note gloomblade without rotten in dance, because that seems like its wasting getting another PV stack (or using a 5p evis inside of dance instead of 7cp outside). I tried editing the APL but couldnt get it to skip it 
But along the same lines as armin talked about earlier, its sending flag and sepsis instantly on cd during a dance frequently (as in this pic) which then means that the 2x dance vanish sequence later at ~2:25 doesnt have neither flag nor sepsis up. Im not sure if the correct solution to this is holding flag+sepsis for a little bit to line it up or to hold the vanish for the next flag window, or if what the sim is doing is actually the correct approach?
remote sparrow
^ just from hitting dummies, I think I had to hold dnace for 2-3 seconds exactly at this timestamp, then everything would be lined up again, then later on, on your 4th vanish go, you would need to hold flag /sepsis for another 3-4 seconds for dance to be close to back up
past fable
With the default sims varying between 4-6 minutes its very possible that holding em means you often end up losing a cast, so you would probably need some overly complex time to die check to make sure its worthwhile
rugged solar
you can use fight.remains to my knowlage
past fable
Well ye but its not as simple as that since it depends on if you get more vanishes
rugged solar
i am sorry if i was a bit busy lately had a lot happening irl and my guild wants me to play less casual this raid tier
rugged solar
Well ye but its not as simple as that since it depends on if you get more vanish...
maybe its able to use a modulo
rugged solar
doing a lot of dummy hitting and looking at the sim casts, for rotten the main i...
thats interessting, we can try to limit those abilities to only be used outside of dance
can you link a sim?
agile nymph
I noticed it was also doing that with vanish
Like if vanish was used it would just slam flag sepsis
Instead of striking and going into rotation properly
past fable
Ye https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gEUJoiyqxyGRErqzDg9Zad/simc had sepsis and flag in dance in both samples
agile nymph
rugged solar
i just took the one above i did the other day
agile nymph
It’s doing flag or sepsis or both in dance almost every time
rugged solar
i did restrict flag/sepsis to only be used outside of dance
in the sim
lets see if that fixes it or introduces new problems
agile nymph
valid robin
What did you run
Is it possible to do ”hold dance if sepsis/flag are off cd in x seconds”
past fable
I very highly suspect its more worth to hold sepsis and flag than to hold dance
rugged solar
past fable
If you need to line em up
agile nymph
I mean a lot of these cases it’s like 3 seconds you’d be holding dance it seems
remote sparrow
I only had to hold dance once in 6 minutes I think. roughly around 2 minute mark for 3 seconds. then after the dead minute of no vanish. you have to wait 1.5 min for flag/sepsis to come back up again, and u can either hold dance for that one, or hold sepsis/flag adn send dance. I tested both and holding sepsis/flag was better
rugged solar
Is it possible to do ”hold dance if sepsis/flag are off cd in x seconds”
will try this next
agile nymph
It also looks like it’s applying the Gloomblade secret rule with the cds
It glooms a lot in dance when it shouldn’t
No pv stacks no rotten buff
valid robin
No dm
agile nymph
Yea
valid robin
That line should be DM specific anyway
agile nymph
Well it glooms sometimes because it enters dance with cp which is fine but then it also glooms later in the dance with basically no pv no rotten
Which is odd
rugged solar
shadowstrike during stealth is dps neutral
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cMiogKvmF2dV9mqZH4NG8Y
remote sparrow
not bad! I'm assuming fix strike now holds dance if flag sepsis about to come off cd right?
rugged solar
it just uses strike from stealth instead of sepsis/flag
agile nymph
That was for the vanish one
rugged solar
yes think it was that one
agile nymph
Yea probably a small enough occurrence to not facilitate much gains
agile nymph
It might be glooming because of flag does flag force 7 cp in apl?
rugged solar
only using dance if sepsis/flag is on cooldown
valid robin
Sounds like it could have bad implications on dancing
rugged solar
so seems like the 2 big chanegs are the sepsis fix and pre pull symbols
pre pull is still the "on pull" line, up to the point i find out how to do the new pre pull condition
valid robin
Why is it gloomblading in dance
Multiple times
Should only happen on the rotten buff or?
rugged solar
because it plays without danse
rugged solar
i can try limiting it, moment
valid robin
because it plays without danse
Makes no sense
Why would it gloomblade more in dance without danse
valid robin
Like if you look at the shadowstrike dmg diff between the sim and armins dummy results
Its like 3-4% dmg diff
Prob cus it never uses strike
agile nymph
Yea like half the shadow dances are either glooms or cds
agile nymph
rugged solar
so far we had 3 hits from our tests
#1 sepsis a bit more agressive
#2 pre pull symbols
#3 gb fix
we doing great
agile nymph
Was the -4% one earlier the hold dance for up to 2-3 seconds of flag + sepsis coming off cd
agile nymph
Hmm, is there another way to force it to not use flag / sepsis in dance then
agile nymph
I know we’re getting another dance back but that’s just so weird to spend half a dance using cds
rugged solar
thats overall quite good, we almost get 1% dps
agile nymph
Yea solid gains
agile nymph
Is that with the new gear profile too?
agile nymph
Yea that’s what I was mentioning earlier
remote sparrow
maybe its because the fight is ending soon and it tried resetting flag sepsis cd with vanish to get one more use.
agile nymph
It does that from time to time
remote sparrow
one sec let me check something
agile nymph
The strike fix should solve that
agile nymph
@past fable where’s the gear profile you had that was like +200-300 dps is it same as fuus above
past fable
was to hol dance when flag/sepsis is up
What about the opposite, holding flag & sepsis to line up with dance (or the dance+vanish windows atleast)?. I suspect its gonna show as a loss unless we do some timetodie modulu stuff like we talked about earlier
remote sparrow
the peaks when you have sepsi flag vanish are around 180k
but after the 3rd vanish. the peaks are only at 150k
rugged solar
What about the opposite, holding flag & sepsis to line up with dance (or the dan...
basically holding dance or holding sepsis/flag both seems to be not a win
valid robin
Ye its not very clean
remote sparrow
which makes sense for the 4th falg/sepsis since u dont have vanish up for it. but the 5th one, you'll have vanish and you should get 180k, but it still stays at 150k
past fable
It should be unless youre losing a cast though shouldnt it? But with the varying lengths of simc its gonna be scuffed
agile nymph
It should be unless youre losing a cast though shouldnt it? But with the varying...
It’s be holding like 20 seconds quite a few times with what it’s doing rn
valid robin
Can it be related to the sim wanting to vanish asap to reduce cds?
rugged solar
ye, it seems like better to not do it in dance in game
thats lower not higher
hmm
probably would need to use corruption?
valid robin
probably would need to use corruption?
Ye i mean most ppl play with corrupting
past fable
Is the gear profile, but im not 100% sure its the optimal stuff, the only thing im pretty sure about is that you 100% want the vers proc from your cloak
rugged solar
lets see
past fable
Since the crit proc is wasted on rotten and cold blood spells
agile nymph
So vers has to be highest secondary
past fable
Its a minor thing but ye, vers is the highest simming stat anyway up until you hit the DR for it so
agile nymph
@rugged solar would it be a gain to move the vanish strike to inside the first dance during flag to get a pv + lingering + possibly rotten gloom in between the dances
It seems to regularly waste the entire lingering between dances to get the vanish strike and sometimes a finisher in
I also think the vanish strike fix might’ve scuffed some stuff because it’s doing that even on 5 cp now which might be why it came up dps neutral
past fable
Ye its wasting lingering but its building perforated veins for the next lingering anyway
And perforated is generally more damage than lingering per cast
So idk i dont think its a big deal
agile nymph
Lemme double check the stacks hold on
ivory kestrel
yea that is also why im not running lingering
also the 1 point in dance helps to do some things i'll explain
agile nymph
An example of the strike fix losing cp @rugged solar
There’s also the sepsis strike that comes up so it’s kind of hard to get glooms in between dancing meh I’ll have to look some more you prob right eleem
ivory kestrel
the pre dance ones i think are important
to get 1 PV always into the first rotten backstab/gloom
the other one is whatever if you play lingering
valid robin
It might be wasting cdr and all kinds of shit
ivory kestrel
the one pre dance nope
agile nymph
Yea I’ve seen some cases where it just symbols vanish strikes into 2nd dance secret > gloom so you’re losing a rotten there
ivory kestrel
"I found that using sepsis with blades at 4-5 cp into flag finisher then using the free strike from sepsis to always enter with a PV stack for backstab to be a sure win as it gets to use
the power of tfd and also get the strike used."
valid robin
The shadowstrikes from sepsis are so awkward, absolutely hate it gameplay wise
past fable
The sepsis strikes are kinda whatever or
We should probably try
A. Skipping sepsis strikes completely (unlikely to be good imo)
B. Skipping sepsis strikes if we already have perforated veins
ivory kestrel
if only it also gave premed
there is no way to get PV before the sepsis flag tho
so that one is 100% win always
valid robin
Ye i mean gloomblade should do more dmg when ur shadowstriking with sepsis
Cus its during lingering
You gain a pv stack sure
But pv kinda dog or
past fable
I mean, shadowstrike + pv of a gloomblade is more damage than a lingering gloomblade since we dont run 2x lingering
past fable
Even assuming 0 lingering on that gloomblade pv
valid robin
Most of the time
Which means ur not using gloom for 2 gcds after leaving dance
Down to 30% or less
Instead of having 2 glooms in 40%+
past fable
Strikes do like 30% more damage than gloom, so with a pv thats like 70% more than a gloom
agile nymph
@valid robin this what I’m talking about it’s wasting not only a rotten but like 13-14 lingering stacks it glooms right after the secret at the bottom
By wasting I mean using on strike
Where if you moved the vanish to the last strike in dance you’d get a pv full lingering rotten gloom
valid robin
Thought we changed so it would only gloom with rotten up
If both premed and rotten is up it should never shadowstrike
Thats just waste
agile nymph
I think the vanish strike fix krangled some things it’s also doing it on 5 cp if you look at my earlier pic
past fable
Vanish strike is another trigger than the other strikes, so thats probably why
agile nymph
It wasted an entire vanish strikes cp
valid robin
Well
Ultimately
Not sure how worth it is to fix
Completely
Just play better ingame
agile nymph
Yea definitely
valid robin
Left side is likely gone with the update
So its gonna be a few months of maybe 0.5% more dps in sim
agile nymph
We know the builds better and there’s some obvious stuff that you can do in game to play better that would probably be ass to code
agile nymph
It really is
valid robin
Its very much up to the player ingame
To react to things
Dance is quite set in stone
But like the rest is a bit weird
I think its fair to say that rotten is better tho
So its worth to play
agile nymph
Yea especially with this build I feel like it’s just not beginner friendly at all since you’re going to have to react to quite a few things depending on timers and how cds come up with the different buffs
valid robin
Ye i mean realz said he didnt want everyone to play rotten
Because the gameplay is kinda dog or weird
agile nymph
Based
ivory kestrel
yea he even debunked the premed hope
valid robin
Which is why he was hesitant
ivory kestrel
but we are unhinged
agile nymph
thankfully
valid robin
Cus in reality, left side should be quite a bit better on st as ur losing a bunch of aoe talents
From playing full left
agile nymph
Yea exactly
Also trying to explain this build to people with all the intricacies is just a big friggin no thanks
valid robin
I think we take the 1% and thats it
past fable
Besides sepsis i dont actually think the gameplay is cursed, its pretty fun to vanish to get a second dance with flag and you can delay CDs in a very interesting way to have em line up differently based on fights
agile nymph
I’m down
valid robin
Besides sepsis i dont actually think the gameplay is cursed, its pretty fun to v...
For the avg player it kinda is
ivory kestrel
yea it is too much to think because you also need to keep in mind FW
and their brain rots
agile nymph
Besides sepsis i dont actually think the gameplay is cursed, its pretty fun to v...
Imagine doing this when you’re not a rogue monke who can play anything though
past fable
Well seeing as sims seem to show that it doesnt really fucking matter what you do with the dances
valid robin
I mean fw is free from the gloomblade rotten
past fable
I dont think so
agile nymph
I think that’s just the sim being fucky
ivory kestrel
not in the dances after opener ones
agile nymph
It’s definitely important lol
valid robin
Ye idk if thats real
ivory kestrel
"I found that sometimes while doing whole combos that don't have any builder FW can go down so putting a check to storm if FW has less than x secs on the sepsis flag could be
beneficial. As in if FW has less than 4-5 secs last builder before sepsis should be storm to get FW as it would time out before first evis"
valid robin
We spent so much time trying to fix OG flag
ivory kestrel
if you dont have at least 5 secs going into sepsis flag finisher strike dance evis
valid robin
And it never worked cus of cd alignments
ivory kestrel
you will have no FW
valid robin
But when it clicked, it was like 3-4% better
So just because you cant instantly fix it in sim
Doesnt mean its not bad/good
But i dont think its worth spending time on
ivory kestrel
yea it just takes time
agile nymph
Yea especially with a rework looming
past fable
I mean its not showing as a loss to do things differently
ivory kestrel
the rework will be funny for sure
past fable
Theyre just about the same
valid robin
I hope we get some fucking shadow imbuement from d4 talent, i would cream to that
ivory kestrel
yea big D shadow damage
valid robin
I mean its not showing as a loss to do things differently
Just like the flag changes did
Until it didnt 
ivory kestrel
i mean with dfa evis and mfd
it was tip toe
until a big 7%+
then everyone stopped laughing
agile nymph
I say just put it out there with a big fat disclaimer this build requires critical thinking and reaction for its slight gains over the pre-existing st one and has periods of downtime
ivory kestrel
and either build can highroll anyway
agile nymph
So it doesn’t turn into a shitstorm
valid robin
I think you might have to revisit every single cd usage in our kit to get a reasonable cd usage
Out of this build
And thats too much time spent
The sim is definitely full on krangled atm, and us doing 2-3k more dps than it sims on a dummy tells you enough
agile nymph
Yea definitely
ivory kestrel
yea the logic is the hard part but some things are easier to check than others
agile nymph
It really is you get a lot of procs with juiced af glooms
valid robin
I mean its just giving you twice the amount of rotten buffs
2p should be like 3-4% stronger with this build compared to reg
agile nymph
Well dust also giving resets on it
valid robin
Ye
agile nymph
So it’s double symbols and double dance procs
valid robin
Well not exactly double
agile nymph
Yea just around cds so double every 3rd set
Which is w/e % not doing any more math rn
Sorry stealthi
agile nymph
valid robin
Think they are like 134k with corrupting phial
But not sure what ours would be with apl and gear adjustments
valid robin
Also tbf, rotten makes more sense than their cursed sepsis exsang build
agile nymph
It’s also not bad for last boss fight timers which is low key hilarious
ivory kestrel
oh boi
rugged solar
sry was afk, anything nice to try out?
ivory kestrel
around 93k but i was bacon unluck
also our strat made me run to china every time
we changed sides
so big Ls still did better than the other time
i has low 8x
sadly you are on echo of nelth or zskarn those both suck
agile nymph
Found a couple krangles with the strike fix for sure fuu
turbid pulsar
He is on dummy duty
agile nymph
Pinged you the 1st and 2nd pic is #1065728795455266888 message
royal pawn
Doesn't looks like Matrix Restabilizer is proccing at all in this sim - anyone know if it's implemented correctly or? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gJe4iDDJzBM1Qqv1GMthza/simc
ivory kestrel
they will need to get it on NA or EU on wednesday
because the spell data is also old
royal pawn
Ahh right perfect, thank you
valid robin
Doesn't looks like Matrix Restabilizer is proccing at all in this sim - anyone k...
What are these?
New trinkets?
past fable
Cataclysm timewalking
mystic sequoia
Firelands pretty sure
From TW
I remember hating that stupid trinket because it procced off things like blind and sap and stuff
valid robin
Tw gear goes to high ilvl now?
past fable
Its 415 champion gear, so you can upgrade it to 437
valid robin
royal pawn
^^
rugged solar
possible that TW items miss implementation
ivory kestrel
yea necromantic focus is bis for some but us only have matrix and it is kinda meh
unless for m+ then it seems decent if you can proc mastery
the rppm is also old data i guess
it was not 1.7
it did have a lot of uptime so chances are the proc rate gets nerfed or the numbers
past fable
@rugged solar This is probably a very annoying thing to get simc to cooperate on but im curious about cold blood usage with the rotten. What the sim currently does most of the time is send the second sectech ~16-18 seconds into the fight when cold blood is ready at 20 seconds, which means youll end up delaying it and losing out on a lot of cooldowns for a longer period of time, leading to roughly 2 less casts of cold blood over a 5:30 fight (which is what im looking at because i have a log of that length).
Syncing them together gets you more of them inside your flag windows as well. Now the downside is that youll likely need to waste a little bit of dance CDR which might make this not nearly as worth it as it might seem, because you need to "waste" globals around your vanish window and go vanish > strike > evis > dance instead of vanish > strike > dance. You also need to use sectech as your second finisher in the second dance to have 15s of time inbetween your sectechs, as that is the cooldown of cold blood with one vanish.
Hopefully the pictures make it more clear if my text was a little bit messy and not easily understood, and this isnt just for the opener btw, if you sync them together they stay synced for the next flag windows too,
Theres a nice flow of it being synced for all the flag windows so im curious if its actually worth it or if its just another "send on cd dont think" moment
rugged solar
is it fixed by just allowing secret to be delayed slightly?
past fable
Ye if you send the eviscerate i marked before going into dance it delays it enough for cold blood to come up for sectech
Whereas the sim wound dance and sectech on that eviscate instead
rugged solar
so dance would need to be delayed slightly
past fable
Ye
remote sparrow
I think this is tricky. Assuming each evis there is on average 6.5 cp -> thats about 4.5 Sec of dance cdr, if you do this sequence 4 times in a 5 minute fight, thats only 18 seconds of cdr so not very likely to lose a dance, but the longer the fight lasts the more likely you are to lose dance. im pretty sure at 6 min fight you lose an entire dance.
rugged solar
moment
marginally better
with a slightly tighter window
(and 100k sim iterations)
past fable
The first one you linked had some sectech hits outside of dance too because it delayed it until 5th global
Ye second one too sends sectech as last global in the opener
rugged solar
making it tighter to fit that
ends up quickly as a loss
it seems like a trade off that is worth it
turbid pulsar
its basically very strict the way you need to play dance
past fable
But it doesnt end up following it in the following flag sequences
rugged solar
what i did is basically just allowed a up to 2 second delay
past fable
Ah the sim sends the symbols+gloom in dance, rather than after
rugged solar
of shadow dance
past fable
thats why it "loses a global"
More than we are doing when testing
So it ends up needing more than 2 seconds
rugged solar
yes, but adding a further delay ends up being worse
so what i could try instead is delaying symbols?
past fable
I would assume you've tested that actually doing the symbols+rotten gloom during dance is a gain compared to waiting until after (since we lose symbols uptime)
But when vanishing right after the symbols uptime shouldnt be relevant since youll have full uptime anyway right?
rugged solar
only change i did in this was to introdue the delay, that ended up positively ^^
valid robin
You would wait no?
If you spend ur entire dance gloomblading ur doing it wrong imo
And wasting symbols
Missing out on a rotten pv + lingering gloomblade, which should do more dmg than a pv + dance gloomblade either way
past fable
Idk what to change in the APL exactly but the idea is to have the flag+vanish windows pretty much exactly as the wcl timeline i showed above because otherwise you wont get the double cb activation
But the opener is going to be scuffed if we cant do the 15s prepull stuff
And like push said, if we dont think about symbols uptime its strictly better to get a shadowstrike in dance and then a rotten gloom with full llingering afterwards than rotten gloom in dance+regular gloom after
Maybe the extra uptime outweights that though
past fable
Delaying symbols until there are no builders left in dance?
mystic sequoia
Wonder how things line up with using conditions like (ability.cooldown.remains-30<vanish.cooldown.remains)