quick test, just using rupture to apply finality:rupture when rupture is not empowered
#tc-subtlety
rugged solar
it triggers around 4-5 times per sim
i don't think when you refresh rupture is important because of pandemic
e.g. "let rupture run out" vs. "refresh it within pandemic" does nothing for duration
lilac crescent
Now gotta test GB > Rupture > build to 6 > Rupture
rugged solar
you mean in the opener?
rugged solar
i am still not sure i understand it
lilac crescent
What armin described
rugged solar
do you want to apply a rupture during a running one?
turbid pulsar
tldr: you want it to play like it always have Finality up
mystic sequoia
I don't think GB is of importance. I just think they want to minimise the amount of CP spent on the non-finality rupture.
lilac crescent
Exactly that
turbid pulsar
basically do the small rupture into big rupture for the Finality amp
rugged solar
oh, finish for rupture earlier
lilac crescent
Only when current rupture is low duration
mystic sequoia
So basically losing as little CP on a "throwaway" rupture that only exists in order to get the finality buff up for the main-line rupture
Yea
lilac crescent
Yeah, except its rigid as GB > Rupture not CP based
lilac crescent
Evis > GB > Rupture > build to 6+ > Rupture
Average CP gained from GB is 2 anyway, if what armin said is true
mystic sequoia
Best case scenario would be to have ShT tick for 1 cp if you want to minimize waste
As long as it wouldn't cause energy capping to occur
lilac crescent
This describes how he wanted it to behave
With rupture extensions his napkin math may make it worth it 
So in essence it would be almost permanent finality buffed rupture
Outside of opener which would be a normal rupture
You'd only have to refresh in pandemic there because you'd have finality for regular pandemic
valid robin
is it meant to rupture 20 times
and spend 90+ cps on it
in the idea that armin had
genuine question, idk what its meant to do
he said 12 cps or some shit
rugged solar
this does look fine
lilac crescent
Basically need to check if active rupture is finality boosted
If it is you refresh at 2-3s with low CP rupture into big CP rupture
If its not finality boosted you refresh for finality (in pandemic if possible?)
valid robin
in the thing i linked above, its also letting finality drop before doing the 7 cp rupture into 7 cp rupture
rugged solar
ye i think i can fix that easy
lilac crescent
Only time a rupture won't be finality boosted is from opener too
valid robin
this refresh is too early as well, its less than 30 seconds after the previous finality rupture was applied
20 seconds later
to be exact
which is weird by itself
lilac crescent
So it should be opener dance > refresh rupture with finality in pandemic (or with as little time left on finality buff as possible) > dance > next time out of dance and that previous applied finality rupture is 2-3s left > low CP rupture > build > Rupture > repeat
Not sure if the rupture timing will ever fall in dance with the extensions
May be two dances between each reapply
rugged solar
just to state this, this goes against the usual and tries to be as true to the thesis as possible
took me quite a bit to make the sim do exactly what was asked for
less strict rules would lead to less loss, but also would not fit the described pattern
i do have some other ideas from the testing, just to give a rough idea i had 9 test cases in the end
valid robin
What’s the main loss coming from
Inefficient cps?
Is it possible to sim it with never refreshing during symbols, to make use of the evis buff
rugged solar
i haven't looked much else than checked if:
- cooldowns get used correctly
- ruptur gets refreshed/applied correctly
but my hinch is it is not one specific thing, but a combination of multiple
if you see something that seems wrong in the sample sequence, lmk
valid robin
We often see a loss in playing around finality, and I have a hard time wrapping my head around it
How is it that it’s better to drop a 30% buff to a spell over just using 7 cps for it
Is the evis that strong in comparison
rugged solar
this way you also shift things
you introduce inefficiencies in energy
and you potentially have more finisher during high lingering stacks
nothing is without trade offs
but maybe i missed something that leads to more loss
past fable
You get slightly lower uptime on dance because you "waste" globals
valid robin
and you potentially have more finisher during high lingering stacks
Well now I just meant actually making use of the finality buff
Not doing the smol into big gameplay
But simply using a rupture before finality ends
That’s also a dps loss
And idk why
It’s at worst like 4-5 seconds off pandemic
past fable
Because you overwrite effectively half of your rupture
valid robin
Half?
valid robin
28-29 seconds can go before you rupture again
valid robin
I don’t think the sim plays that way tho
turbid pulsar
or like 48
rugged solar
7 cp rupture is 32 secs, in pandemic 42, you have 2 dances during that makes it 52 secs
valid robin
I think it’s just refreshing in pandemic
Cus it was a loss to play around the extension last time we checked
rugged solar
during that time you get another dance so 58
etc.
rupture use is rly low with tier
what we do is introduce additional casts of rupture
so it is not just 30% more damage on rupture
but the lost value of evis
and the things mentioned above
valid robin
Again, not talking about doing the 2 cp into 7 cp
rugged solar
additionally, you need to do some decisions, because rupture does sometimes line up weirdly
turbid pulsar
valid robin
I am not a fan of that gameplay either way, so i hope it’s never good
rugged solar
btw
just to mention it
i do like the idea of
strike-rupture-storm-dance
will test it later for default apl
past fable
Rupture just doesnt seem to do enough damage to warrant being inefficient with cps and energy to buff it by 30%. Even going of DPE eviscerate is roughly 30% of a rupture cast by itself (obv evis does less outside of dance and symbols but still)
low breach
Rupture just doesnt seem to do enough damage to warrant being inefficient with c...
Even refreshing it before dance so 12 sec or less?
lilac crescent
Rupture just doesnt seem to do enough damage to warrant being inefficient with c...
That also assume refreshing in pandemic, if it falls to an early refresh to consume finality it should cause the dpe of rupture to actually go down even with finality buffing it
past fable
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iKrMcGfUBgVh9SD6u3qKY3/simc>
Isnt it odd that the DPS of rupture is noticeably lower with the finality one? Regular build has 10701 dps from rupture while the one that applied more finality have 9582. That seems incorrect does it not? Ye the apl seems to do what we think it should do but how could it possibly lead to so much lower dps when uptime is only 1.9% worse
Having 30% more damage on most rupture ticks should lead to a very clear increase in rupture dps shouldnt it? Atleast not a noticeable decrease
valid robin
Is it doing a 30% dps reduction instead 
mystic sequoia
I'm a bit busy, but I took out the log with just rupture stuff and you can see if things line up as it should buff wise
past fable
ye thats what im saying, its doing what we want it to do
But somehow rupture does less damage with finality up almost all the time
past fable
Or pure dps
Pure dps
mystic sequoia
I don't know how rollover damage is handled for rupture. Might be correct as is
valid robin
Or maybe it’s always active
past fable
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8Dk9Mz6VsKWwvvJ8SRZJ5m/simc
Here is a sim without db and then one without finality and you can see finality does increase rupture overall dps
Although i find it a bit sus that it gains about 20% rupture damage despite it only ever using one of the buffs (after the opener)
past fable
So my guess would be that finality amp stays in the sim when you refresh rupture in pandemic
Ye
lilac crescent
If its been this way since shadowlands, even?
Cos I would assume implementation would be identical
valid robin
Well it’s a talent
Vs legendary
Doubt it’s just a copy
This might have happened in 10.1 even
Cus stealthi found a 1k dps gain by just ignoring the min/max
In a 10.1 sim
That would make sense if it suddenly just gets all the dps
Without min/maxinf
The min/maxing would never have been a gain if it was always like this or since sl
mystic sequoia
Different effect between finality from Legion, SL and DF
valid robin
Ye but the min/max was a gain in 10.0
mystic sequoia
But implementation wise, no clue
valid robin
Why would refresh early ever have been a gain if the number on rupture never changed
Seems like a 10.1 thing to me
lilac crescent
T29 4p?
valid robin
But that didn’t snapshot
lilac crescent
Ya but that would explain the gain in 10.0
valid robin
Don’t think so
past fable
@rugged solar @coarse laurel If you read through some of the messages above here we highly suspect the damage amp from finality stays on the rupture in the sim if you refresh it and not let it completely fall of. Just having a profile with finality vs one without makes us gain ~20% rupture damage despite actually not using the buff more than a single time, and Fuu's apl optimizations to maximize rupture damage with finality just lead to lower rupture damage overall.
valid robin
Since it’s just a passive rupture buff
Why would spam refreshing be a gain
Unless the tier set was implemented as a snapshot
rugged solar
<@194804407706189824> <@116203458129821697> If you read through some of the mess...
did you compare uptime?
just to be sure it isn't a consequence of uptime changes
valid robin
Yes
rugged solar
also the old finality rule does see a increase without tier
past fable
did you compare uptime?
Yes
rugged solar
what could be is
past fable
It lost 2% uptime and like 15% pure rupture dps doing your finality optimizations
mystic sequoia
just to be sure it isn't a consequence of uptime changes
These seem suspect however
past fable
Ye losing uptime is expected, but having significantly less damage isnt when the whole point is to get the 30% damage buff on all the time
rugged solar
These seem suspect however
what exactly do we look at
mystic sequoia
rugged solar
if anything, it couldbe that the tier set does change the damage?
mystic sequoia
log=1 from simc
and just filter out all rows that's not rupture_finality or rupture ticks
lilac crescent
It's doing the same damage with and without finality
After applying a finality rupture
mystic sequoia
Likely shadow dance used there, or SoS, or proc etc
SoD*
I stripped all of that away
rugged solar
oh,
ye thats what i assume
maybe the tier set extension
does not keep the pmult
rugged solar
i see what you mean
the one after should be higher
so the bottom one
because it is without dance
but it seems to be the same
past fable
Ye since it doesnt refresh rupture inbetween those
They should be higher since they should be affected by finality
But theyre the same
rugged solar
this is why i assume
that the tier set implementation might not keep finality on rupture
let me quick check the code
mystic sequoia
I'm in an onboarding meeting with a new employee, so can't really be of much help
valid robin
It’s the opposite if anything
As in
Finality is always active
Once it’s been applied once
rugged solar
rugged solar
I'm in an onboarding meeting with a new employee, so can't really be of much hel...
no hurry
that seems fine
past fable
Nvm it doesnt seem to be the same without tier when i dug a bit deeper
rugged solar
is the report taking all interations or one specific
past fable
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/1GNywXTNkcFHfp1go2bmeQ/simc
Here is fuus old sim with the rupture shenanigans except without tier. Here we can see rupture doing around ~4% more damage with the finality optimizations instead of like 15% less like with the tier
rugged solar
this can happen
it seems
so finality wouldn't be up during that dance on rupture
but overall its not the norm
past fable
But also fuu if you check this sim i linked https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8Dk9Mz6VsKWwvvJ8SRZJ5m/simc
You can see that rupture does about 20% more damage with finality specced, despite it only getting the benefit of the buff for a single rupture after the opener
rugged solar
hmm thats a lot ye
but also keep in mind that symbols will lead to higher dps with tier
past fable
Ok so how do i get the data rosvall posted earlier after running a sim with log=1
past fable
Ty
coarse laurel
I don’t believe my implementation should change the snapshot. Adjust duration shouldn’t change the pmultiplier. Not sure if you guys are saying this is different from the game or not in any way though.
rugged solar
I don’t believe my implementation should change the snapshot. Adjust duration sh...
not sure, so far it just seems like trying to pin down what could lead to differences in damage output.
past fable
#1065728795455266888 message
This post that rosvall linked has a finality rupture ticking for 17536 at 112, then he applies a new rupture without finality at 115 and it still ticks for 17536, then he applies a rupture with finality (but pops dance and cooldowns right afterwards) at 119 but after those cds end at 139 it again ticks for 17536.
Which implies that the finality amp somehow stays on regardless since all ticks seem to do the same amount of damage
Or doesnt get applied at all
valid robin
cant you look at rupture numbers pre-finality
like the first finality rupture values
i mean
rupture numbers*
should be easy to see if its a finality thing or a rupture thing
my guess is that the sim applies finality on every single rupture post 1st one
and not the other way around
mystic sequoia
royal pawn
So even finality: ruptures appear to do the same non-crit damage per tick?
valid robin
12k without finality
17k with finality
and then 17k forever
is what i'm seeing
coincidentally
12 on 17 is exactly 30% diff
past fable
Youre comparing hits and crits
The 17k from before is crits
Those 12k are hits so
But it also has pots n cds up early
valid robin
oh they are crits
past fable
I was too dumb to clean the data i got from log=1 properly to have a log where its easier to see (ie one log with finality and one without, perhaps without inev too if symbols has anything to do with it)
But there definitely seems to be something thats weird with rupture finality in sims rn
valid robin
cant you just do the same shit
and remove pots
nothing else should be buffing its dmg
that early on in the fight
rugged solar
you can, just do potion=disabled
mystic sequoia
Cleanest would probably be to just make an apl that only uses rupture and a builder. No cd's or anything. And you'd see what happens there. No proc trinkets or so either
past fable
btw. it makes sense that damage per cast goes down
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iKrMcGfUBgVh9SD6u3qKY3/simc
The sim you linked has the base profile doing 10701 dps with rupture (98.7% uptime) and the "rupture shenanigans" profile doing 9582 dps with rupture (96.9%). Obviously the DPE goes down because you cast more but the overall pure dps number of rupture should be higher when you have finality up almost all the time and not lower as it currently is. Having a 30% buff up for a significantly longer period shouldnt result in the spell doing less damage.
Other spells doing less damage because you cast more rupture would make perfect sense, but there is no reason why rupture itself should be doing quite significantly less dps
past fable
Is there an easy way to make it not use any of the APL besides just rupture and gloomblade so its easier to see how finality interacts (like rosvall suggested)
rugged solar
yes, just use a custom apl, moment
with shadow dance sync
just using dance on cd
past fable
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6Et2aNcV1HBgPJYGKLSWX1
In this first one it works just like expected from what i can see https://i.gyazo.com/ae09c23d4220ace42dde173e5b898db1.png Ill check the other ones in a sec
mystic sequoia
Well that one drops finality buff.
Just ran one where it ruptures more often and finality works as expected.
Also to note is that Dark Shadow and Finality has the same modifiers. So a non-finality rupture during dance would have the same values as a finality rupture outside dance
lilac crescent
Now check one that uses Shadow Dance
then that'll rule out some weird t30 extension bug?
rugged solar
the sims i linked are with 4p
so it wold extend them with tier
it could be just that
events like this happen
even tho i tried to prevent them
where you lose value during the high impact of finality
lilac crescent
ya but the one he used doesn't use dance
so if it does it with dance being pressed
that's the culprit
valid robin
So the sim is saying the dance extension deletes finality amp
And replaces it with a normal rupture?
Or am I misunderstanding
past fable
Pretty sure once dance (and/or symbols) fades the finality buff seems to drop
or the amp rather
sec
mystic sequoia
Pretty sure once dance (and/or symbols) fades the finality buff seems to drop
This is what I would suspect as well
mystic sequoia
past fable
Not very clear but 6s after dancing (the blue stuff) the damage drop back down to red (non-finality) instead of the green finality number
mystic sequoia
past fable
Also dance and finality seem to be additive, is that how it is in game?
past fable
No. Once dance (or symbols, they have the same duration in this sim) drops the finality amp is removed
lilac crescent
wish we could present this information in wlogs format
would make digesting it so much more manageable
coarse laurel
No. Once dance (or symbols, they have the same duration in this sim) drops the f...
I'm really not totally sure what the jist of this conversation is. Dance duration dropping has nothing to do with the Finality persistent multiplier. Are you not considering the fact that you are losing the Dance modifier itself because it isn't persistent?
past fable
I'm really not totally sure what the jist of this conversation is. Dance duratio...
if the sim applies a finality rupture, then dances
coarse laurel
Also all this stuff is very easily seen in the full debug log
past fable
The rupture ticks after dance/symbols have ended are not buffed by finality
Maybe the 4p buff getting removed also removes the finality amp somehow, idk
@coarse laurel We are trying to figure out why what im explaining in this post happens #1065728795455266888 message
Why optimizing and having finality up all the time leads to lower rupture dps (not DPE) than ignoring it and letting the buff fall off
coarse laurel
If you give me a reproducible single APL of a case you think is incorrect, I can take a look
I see a number linked above but unclear which is being discussed
rugged solar
@past fable keep in mind that the finality does overwrite it immidiatly
so there is little time with no finality
past fable
Ok so what happnes in the logs me and rosvall linked is this:
Non-finality rupture is ticking for 100
You apply a finality rupture and now your rupture ticks for 130
You dance (+symbols with tier) so your rupture ticks for 185
Your dance and symbols end and rupture ticks for 100
The last line should be rupture ticking for 130
Since you didnt apply a new rupture, so it should still have finality
past fable
Is this also fuus sims or are these yours without tier?
coarse laurel
Think I found the issue, just some very odd SimC core code in the extend logic
rugged solar
nice
coarse laurel
Should be fixed now
rugged solar
saw the commit, but needs a bit to be on raidbots latest
alright, thats a 0.3% win now
valid robin
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/rUkMoUNCmgrqivkJV1TwPc>
which one is this
rugged solar
the one i spend more than a hour hacking together
valid robin
the armin change
rugged solar
yes
valid robin
valid robin
why is this sim so low tho
its hard to keep up when we have multiple different profiles being run
rugged solar
because it is without the ovrewrites
valid robin
can you do it with the overwrites
rugged solar
it is?
valid robin
the sim we had before was above 136k
rugged solar
i overwrited both
valid robin
oh
rugged solar
*moment
remote sparrow
Thanks for testing it fuu btw, kinda weird to me why it's still worse than no finality but 
lilac crescent
rugged solar
what talents
remote sparrow
Oh, how we do it now? Okay nice
valid robin
what talents
you drop inev
rugged solar
same as before it seems
i can try the one that simmed slightly higher
moment
hmm
valid robin
can you link the sim
lilac crescent
BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAECkkICJgESCSSSSCJhikElAJlIkkkkWAAAA
lilac crescent
uhhh
rugged solar
fuck
i did probably use wrong config
sry
1 boss, will take a bit
BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAECkkICJgESCSSSkQSokkEtAJlIkkkkWAAAA
fairly standard
remote sparrow
Loool. I'm pretty sure we drop VT and take improved sht after changes and end up around 131
rugged solar
maybe there are energy threashld optimizations
but thats a 1-2 day task to update
so nothing i can do immidaitly
also only usually for 0.2% dps or so if even
rugged solar
think we lost like 6500 dps from the amps
yes but lethality fix is another 0.5%
valid robin
its not in this sim?
rugged solar
no lethality fix is not in to my knowlage
but i double check in a minute need to do something quck
*quick
rly quick loking at wowhead, don't see strike
but will look real spell data soon
coarse laurel
Shadowstrike still isn't in Lethality afaik
rugged solar
^ i didn't see it in the hotfixes
past fable
https://i.gyazo.com/6a2e7dc4bcd7645bad32713cdce46186.png
When the amps are removed theres pretty much no way this doesnt go above that build fuu just linked though
remote sparrow
^ I tested flag. Even with. Lthing to amp it's about 1.2% behind db
Removed rings and trinkets and enchants that would otherwise get amped to test
rugged solar
it was in the hofxies
i know it was in the hotfix notes, but talking spell data
valid robin
sure
but we are simming NS as if its fixed
so why not lethality
both are not fixed
coarse laurel
Well one is an existing whitelist and the other is just something that was broken so the implementation path is different.
Until they update the spell data for the whitelist it's not really practical to update
valid robin
ye idk
rugged solar
btw. thanks for everyone to look into the sims, nice bug we found and koji fixed
royal pawn
I fell asleep shortly after my last message, nice work ladies 😄
mental dirge
I read through convo
Are we still doing the same thing with finality as 10.0 or ignoring it or what
turbid pulsar
we would go back to our rupture gameplay from vault
rugged solar
Are we still doing the same thing with finality as 10.0 or ignoring it or what
only rule changes for 10.1 so far is symbols use
mental dirge
Alright
rugged solar
most of the apl optimizations else are around trinket use
or talents we don't use
tho as always there migth be more optimizations
mental dirge
Probably just rotten left tbh or 1 dance flag apl
If all our shadow dmg amp talents tank then flag might become best
rugged solar
i don't mean something specific
just in general that there is always something to find/improve
mental dirge
Ye
past fable
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=irideus_fragment,if=buff.cold_blood.up|fight_remains<20
@ivory kestrel should probably use this if you dont want it to completely scuff irideus
With cold blood might not be 100% optimal, but its a lot closer than using it like the default apl does, sims around 0.5-0.6% higher in my tests
ivory kestrel
yea getting it to use it just as you use sec tech might be the thing
remote sparrow
couple of things 1) looks like the sims are over riding existing symbols
- not sure if its worth it or not, but with the flag stiletto inev build, is it worth it to hold blades for flag?
past fable
Yes, use the apl in the pins
valid robin
couple of things 1) looks like the sims are over riding existing symbols
Thats how it works ingame
Unless it was fixed, cant test cus ptr is down
remote sparrow
^ no as in, it uses symbols when theres still 3-4 seconds of symbols remaining from dance + inev
remote sparrow
should I also change this line?
shadow_blades,if=variable.snd_condition&combo_points.deficit>=2&target.time_to_die>=10&(dot.sepsis.ticking|cooldown.sepsis.remains<=8|!talent.sepsis)|fight_remains<=20
like ill add &cooldown.flagellation.remains<=2
to kind of sync them together
lilac crescent
just copy paste entire apl
in advanced
then add a copy with what you wanna change + the block it's in
remote sparrow
yeah adding |cooldown.flagellation.remains<=3 is roughly a 300 dps gain 
maybe its worth then idk
never mind I tested all variations, syncing flag and blades seems like a dps loss. just send on cd
rugged solar
Can just copy the entire profiles tab from the sheet
I expect more trinket optimizations Is irideus off gcd?
valid robin
Trinkets usually dont
ivory kestrel
yea syncing blades+sepsis+flag is a win but only blades+flag seems meh
we might want to see if saving always 1 charge of vanish if possible for flag is a win
sour patio
Quick question that probs need sim to solve
Okay so with 2p, If Shadow Dance is like 5 seconds till off CD, but SoD is ready to go.
Do i hold SoD, otherwise id be overwriting the SoD buff with the free SoD from 2p?
low breach
Quick question that probs need sim to solve
Hold and see how it goes. 😏
valid robin
@rugged solar this is a relevant question
you delete symbols uptime by sending it, but you have to hold it for quite some time
if you dont
rugged solar
good question
the apl is not considering it atm, but i can check in a moment
need to do something first
mystic sequoia
Can check quickly. Just instinctively it sounds like a loss to hold it for half its cd
valid robin
You would hold it for 9-10 seconds in this situation i think
low breach
Can check quickly. Just instinctively it sounds like a loss to hold it for half ...
Even if you override it with 2p?
rugged solar
rly quick test says its a loss
lilac crescent
with flag is it a gain to hold vanish for every flag cast possible
to smooth out cp generation
or guarantee it, even
mystic sequoia
You mean to only vanish when flag build time is up? Or when flag buff time is up?
valid robin
To build i assume
lilac crescent
Toi build yeah
valid robin
Also could be a thing to check if its worth to hold sec tech to 3rd finisher in dance with flag up, to get more flag stacks on it
So tfd-evis-strike-evis-vanish strike-sectech
One way to do it is prob to check for higher flag stacks before using sec tech
And + dance up ofc
lilac crescent
BUQAAWulQAmRd/c4Iy2r7VOUFAAAAAAAAAAARAJJiQASIJEJJRCJRKJJRLJkUSCJJhWAAAA
mystic sequoia
Is it flag or flag persists, do you know?
mystic sequoia
@lilac crescent
Not surprisingly, if it would been positive there's no chance it could be more than an extremely small gain
lilac crescent
ya its the difference between 28 and 30 stacks
mystic sequoia
Problem with the sd line I wrote there is that the "x" seconds are so dynamic. Sometimes 3 seconds SD cd is 3 seconds. Sometimes it's practically 0 seconds
due to cdr
mystic sequoia
Since SoD buff uptime is consistent, you'd want the same amount of irl seconds before you press SD which.. is hard to model esp since SoD generates energy in itself. Like if you're at 4cp and <X energy then SoD for energy + finish + SD would likely in the situation be better than holding SoD. These types of rules that "on average" is a small increase. While in reality becomes a larger increase once every 10 pulls and a small decrease all other uses I feel is bad practice to implement like that and suggest people doing
lilac crescent
is it worth sec tec early in 2nd dance during large aoe if u can fit it into flag buff
as in, a 2nd dance later on
past fable
You shouldnt need to
remote sparrow
^ in big mass AOE u should be able to fit 2 secetch within flag window
past fable
If you do flag>dance and have constant aoe youll get 6 seconds of flag during your second dance
remote sparrow
Im still curious about Push
's questions tho
during flag
is it worth it, to push sectech to third finisher when vanish is up?
for essentiallt 14% more mastery
valid robin
probably not
remote sparrow
u lose 6% damage on strike, and evis but gain 14% mastery for a sectech, yeah definately not worth it
past fable
And you might fuck your next sectech
remote sparrow
yep very possible
ivory kestrel
the one thing that is true is that in aoe with tornado you can use two sec techs inside flag
lilac crescent
is it worth sec tec early in 2nd dance during large aoe if u can fit it into fla...
@rugged solar whenever you get the chance over the coking days
sour patio
rly quick test says its a loss
So does this mean you would even press SoD in the opener right before shadow dance? or hold it in the opener till <=3 secs remains on the 2p SoD
ivory kestrel
you hold until 3 secs left of SoD inside dance with opener on normal PE build for 2p
for rotten you do it on pull likely
sour patio
ty 🙂
rugged solar
<@194804407706189824> whenever you get the chance over the coking days <:Prayeg:...
does not seem to be worth in a quick test
lilac crescent
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iKZBTXr4T29t8FGDNLVHfZ>
Dslice?
Is the application I meant not single target
Sorry I wasn't clear
rugged solar
same, but less bad
lilac crescent
Damage gone down in Dslice?
rugged solar
yep
rugged solar
small fix for tier set, marginal damage impact tho```diff
- actions.cds+=/symbols_of_death,use_off_gcd=1,if=buff.shuriken_tornado.up&buff.shuriken_tornado.remains<=3.5&!set_bonus.tier30_2pc```
^ change is within margin of error
agile nymph
@rugged solar can you check if it’s more prio damage over a fight with st build to only st compared to only funnel during flag window or possibly even very low lingering stacks
rugged solar
it is almost certainly more damage to pure st
if you want to do the most damage to one target, you just spec full single target and ignore everything else
if you compare funnel to aoe
funnel is 15% stronger than aoe
but pure st is 131k
it highly depends on the talent builds tho
the problem this tier is inev, the synergy between it and funnel is not there
a dungeon build can beat the pure st in heavy funnel possibly, but this just highlights how talent dependent it is
mystic sequoia
I guess there's some optimization there
I made the assumption that buff.lingering_shadow.remains returns the duration of the buff and not the stacks
~18s
mh results don't make a lot of sense
actions.build=gloomblade,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3&(buff.lingering_shadow.remains>=13.5&variable.priority_rotation)
Just added that, with different breakpoints
rugged solar
oh nice
mystic sequoia
yeah I've turned something around, sec
That should be correct, and results make sense
mystic sequoia
@rugged solar
mystic sequoia
One or more of the 44 spell target checks needs a poriority rotation variable
"skip all spell targets" is just ST with a lot of residual damage
But the top one uses shuriken storm
All it does is makes every other of the 43 spell_target checks be >999
rugged solar
oh
mystic sequoia
So one or more of those.. has quite a decent impact on priority target
It's super niche.. maybe not worth investigating
rugged solar
interessting
probably would need to go through them and debug
can probably do later
mystic sequoia
ill give it a few min before meeting
@rugged solar almost certain it's SnD uptime. So related to this line
slice_and_dice,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm<cp_max_spend&buff.slice_and_dice.remains<gcd.max&fight_remains>6&combo_points>=4
(Swapping cp_max_spend to 999)
3 casts vs 0.
rugged solar
i assumed it was slice and dice
mystic sequoia
welp swapping that to
slice_and_dice,if=(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<cp_max_spend|variable.priority_rotation)&buff.slice_and_dice.remains<gcd.max&fight_remains>6&combo_points>=4
was only part of the problem
rugged solar
probably the 2nd snd condition too, moment ill check
mystic sequoia
that only triggered 0.1 times
now both has <99% SnD uptime
er
99
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ndvVu9zZXwScS9n5joVEVA/simc
weirdly enough... the one without the checks has lower SD usage... and still outperforms in priority damage
rugged solar
welp swapping that to
slice_and_dice,if=(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<cp_max_sp...
^ seems like a easy one
adding a check to the 2nd snd variable does not change much:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/qYbHcSrEJf67puGCQnuLgn/simc
mystic sequoia
yeah it gets hit so seldom
It's the shuriken storm while stealthed
shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=3+buff.the_rotten.up&(!buff.premeditation.up|spell_targets>=7&!variable.priority_rotation)
mh
rugged solar
i wonder, moment
mystic sequoia
just temporarily
shuriken_storm,if=spell_targets>=3+buff.the_rotten.up+(variable.priority_rotation*10)&(!buff.premeditation.up|spell_targets>=7&!variable.priority_rotation)
Makes it better but... still not all the way there
rugged solar
that actually lowers prio damage
mystic sequoia
I think I might have swapped flasks there and forgot to swap it back
the changes I did, I did not do to the skip one
That peak though
rugged solar
moving priority_rotation up and adding it to slice and dice was the only dps positive change i found quick```diff
- actions+=/variable,name=priority_rotation,value=priority_rotation
Apply Slice and Dice at 4+ CP if it expires within the next GCD or is not up
- actions+=/slice_and_dice,if=(spell_targets.shuriken_storm<cp_max_spend|variable.priority_rotation)&buff.slice_and_dice.remains<gcd.max&fight_remains>6&combo_points>=4```
haven't found much else
rugged solar
the dungeon slice one
https://www.wowhead.com/talent-calc/rogue/subtlety/DAOUVERBARQakWIkRBUORUUVERBQpEQpJEA
BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARAJJiQASEJJxBSSSCJRIJJtAJlIkkkkWAAAA
mystic sequoia
Mmmh.. I guess we have different approaches here.
My use case was the one Kush was in on Echo/Sark where adds spawn in just one of the phases and they want to maximize boss damage
valid robin
But does it
Inev isnt much better than say VT on pure st
If you only utilize inev to 50%
Then i dont see it being better
I feel like this point is lost
mystic sequoia
You'll utilize inev to like 95%
mystic sequoia
Firstly, the % of the fight on Echo/Sark that there even exists adds is very low.
And then you only storm when you're under like 20 stacks of lingering
and there's adds up
rugged solar
moving priority_rotation up and adding it to slice and dice was the only dps pos...
don't rly see a prio increase by playing around lingering/inev
on 8 targets
but maybe my conditions need to be refined
mystic sequoia
I just added a gloomblade before storm on builders
actions.build=gloomblade,if=spell_targets.shuriken_storm>=3&(buff.lingering_shadow.remains>=2.25&variable.priority_rotation)
Where 2.25 you could replace with (0.25*18) or 0.5 or 0.75 etc etc
rugged solar
that shows a loss too
mystic sequoia
What if you swap to regular ST talents?
rugged solar
i did
mystic sequoia
Still not above your test there, but something in the setup is different
ah it's different gear
rugged solar
it is using the m+ gear ye
rugged solar
possible that its related to the high amount of vers
the st gear profile has a lot of vers, while the m+ profile has a lot more mastery
also, what did you change to make it a gain?
mystic sequoia
I mean, more shuriken = finishers. More mastery = better finishers.
Which makes shuriken higher value
mystic sequoia
You'll cap the buff either way, so no idea
valid robin
I meant more so for the extra evis dmg
mystic sequoia
also, what did you change to make it a gain?
The one I did there is just proof of concept. I slapped 999 on all target requirements. Except shuriken, because I overrode that with the gloomblade with lingering modifier. Didn't have time to finish going through each of them. But positive ones I saw I added to the profiles not called "skip all target * "
But as you can see, it's still a gain to just skip all targets all together so... there's some more gains to be found.
now I really gotta go
rugged solar
oh, you did just copy that one over
i assumed you modified my one
fair, so there is more room for improvement
past fable
#1065728795455266888 message
Just bumping this again for the default profile to include something similar, not that i think it will make irideus fragment a lot more desireable, but certainly a bit better
rugged solar
oh ye
good idea
can probably just make it a item action like for beacon
i think i did for the sheet
rugged solar
Stealthi did ask me to look at Bomb dispenser use, to maybe shift it as a priority to not waste bombs:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nWx3u9dKk8qjrhtBfXCS2v
I tried some variations, lmk if anyone finds something
rugged solar
you would trade off the optimization to use it in dance by doing so
but should be easy to test
past fable
Its also probably more worthwhile when we have dark brew specced
rugged solar
this one is more towards the idea
but also slightly worse
the only vanish that is used regular is the first one
so it seems not worth it
but also not that big of a diffrence if played somewhat reasonable
ivory kestrel
will also depend on trinkets if you have things like harlan or neltharion's rupture has more dmg per cast then strike + snd likely and it will line up eventually
mystic sequoia
Strike from stealth also gets 25% bonus from stealth
ivory kestrel
yea but not affected by mastery(harlan procs) and agi procs benefit rupture more for the full duration. i mean it being neutral is already a telling it won't be much of a win anyway
the RS thing does make me think tho for 2 target
if it is already neutral for st more or less
about RS the thing that is not affected by finality is the 20% extra from the talent the dmg itself i think does get the finality dmg increase
coarse laurel
I believe Fuu said that cleaved Ruptures do get the NS bonus but the Shadow damage additional ticks do not
valid robin
Yes
coarse laurel
Which makes sense as they are triggered separately and have their own coefficient
agile nymph
Is it possible to check if changing symbols logic for dust rewrites is a gain with new tier, for example sending a symbols in opener or other places where portions of it will be overwritten by tier symbols but the cd is being reset by dust regardless, also dances in dust builds seem to be really wonky especially since they’re not using macabre stuff like snd storm etc in dance
ivory kestrel
needs to be worked on for sure
rugged solar
yes absolutely, also it would be good to get a bit more specific input
i do read repeatedly "it is scuffed", but i can't relate to what part of the sequence needs change or has potential for improvement form this expression
the first change was a sepsis fix, not rotten specific
but also should help rotten
the sequence now is
rugged solar
thats what i changed with "fix storm"
the first slice and dice cast is at this mark in the sim above
ofc, there is no rule to not snd in dance, but it isn't exactly a high impact spell
given the low frequency of use
agile nymph
It seems to be snd in dance because of sepsis proc / the storm issue so that might just resolve it with the storm fix
remote sparrow
the sequence now is
Push wanted to line up sepsis more with blades. here for example blades misses 3 sepsis ticks so about 30% of sepsis. which is about 0.5* 0.3 % of your sepsis damage over the course of a fight.
ivory kestrel
yes from my exp using it earlier can be good
if you have wft it syncs well tho
there are times when all 1.5 min cds are coming in 10 secs and dance comes that one is also a point of thinking
remote sparrow
^ the thing is its always going to come up ebfore sepsis and flag
with stilleto that is
you would end up holding it on average 10 seconds per cast.
but either way whatever happens, i can guarantee rotten is going to be outperforming current build on farm since it will always do more damage than current build for the first 2-3 minutes of the fight.
rugged solar
i need to sim with 100k iterations
as most apl chanegs seem fairly low in impact
this does not seem better, but worse:
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gaCubSsVdDd6nRZZxEs5nr
its not doing it correct tho
so moment
remote sparrow
yeah thats what I thought. blades is a weird cd, almost never worth it to hold is what i got from my testings too.
ah
agile nymph
Where are you moving shb to right before you sepsis?
agile nymph
Oh whoops lol
Can also check shb before sepsis on opener then shb on cd but line up the 3 min sepsis with shb
Since this builds really only ideal for sub 4 minute fights
rugged solar
i think this managed to do it
but
is a big loss overall
sry, need to go afk for 10 minutes
agile nymph
Oh wow
rugged solar
my power adapter has issues and cutting out randomly, need to see if i can fix that
ivory kestrel
i talked it a bit on sub normal channel but also saying this here : could be getting 4 rotten stabs inside dance>sepsis uptime
i didnt think about that one with new 2p
although syncing them has done better for me always
because you can use the extra strikes and PV stacks well
past fable
i talked it a bit on sub normal channel but also saying this here : could be get...
How would you get 4 rotten stabs in? You cant dance while dance is active
ivory kestrel
after using vanish you get dance back
so you dance again
those are 2 more
but first lets fix other things
past fable
Oh thought you meant fitting 4 into a single dance
ivory kestrel
no lol ahaha
just in the 20 secs blades last
i have to try these st builds a bit but im still solid on the camp of subterfuge and tfd+ 1 point in improv dance instead of swift death and 1 point in lingering
remote sparrow
theres definitely some cursed things with the current sim (mostly using SND inside dance), but other than maybe doing little optimizations for PV I dont think its actually that bad.
rugged solar
back
ivory kestrel
same i just have issues with the build in general but the dancs themselves and other things are solid
i also have some arguments about it but will try to explain them better when i have time
the easiest fixes can be as talked before and easy to put as lower fruit is using SoD on pull
rugged solar
did solder together a cable to a old power adapter, because the biggest issue is that the cables always break
remote sparrow
i mean the build sims almost identical to current build using NO APL chanes, with BIS gear at 4 minutes and sims almost 1% higher at 2-4 min. and about 2% higher at 1.5 min
rugged solar
so if my power dies again, i try if that worked, it is janky but if it works thats fine with me
remote sparrow
did solder together a cable to a old power adapter, because the biggest issue is...
that sounds really janky yikes
ivory kestrel
as long as power does not have an easier way out it should work
rugged solar
no worry, i did 5 years shool for electrical engineering
perfect excuse to do janky stuff
agile nymph
It also seems to sometimes vanish and not strike
rugged solar
alright, trying to catch up
agile nymph
Like vanish into a cd such as flag or sepsis but I’m not sure if that’s just iteration error
ivory kestrel
i do think this one should be better for ST at least will explain why doing some clips/video and updating excel but will also try the one we have and see BUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARSQSiIkkkkEkQQSSCEHoIJRLQSJCJJRKBAAAA
rugged solar
thats the build from the sheet or?
ivory kestrel
and tfd instead of swift
it is because of things i also put on the excel that can krangle
"I found that using sepsis with blades at 4-5 cp into flag finisher then using the free strike from sepsis to always enter with a PV stack for backstab to be a sure win as it gets to use
the power of tfd and also get the strike used."
"First of all if we don't use SnD in the first globals it will run out before first strike in dance, we also rupture because we have no FW yet after flag
then entering dance with FW is a must because first global is an evis, so shuriken storm to 100% have FW. Dance is normal for rotten with no tier just SoD
first global then stab. We use those because we get bonus from 2p and 4p from S1 on the first evis and the stab that follows with a PV stack.
"
For the subterfuge part
with new tier set this would not change much as you just SoD on pull
past fable
Why would snd run out before you strike in dance
ivory kestrel
with subterfuge it takes 10 secs to first strike
remote sparrow
^ too much gap between the two. you have to reapply snd
ivory kestrel
so it runs out
it is not a loss either because it also takes 9 secs to use first strike after snd
so it does not go above pandemic limit with snd
rugged solar
shb seems fine as is interesstingly
ivory kestrel
and you are applying FW elsewhere before the first 2 finishers
yea blades sync with sepsis is fine imo
past fable
Isnt the opener Strike > blades+sepsis > flag > rupture > storm > dance?
ivory kestrel
even if you dont get the sepsis ticks in you get strikes in dance and PV stabs
past fable
With or without subterfuge anything else just seems not worth no?
ivory kestrel
different build
remote sparrow
Isnt the opener Strike > blades+sepsis > flag > rupture > storm > dance?
i think should be rupture strike strom dance
rugged solar
Isnt the opener Strike > blades+sepsis > flag > rupture > storm > dance?
this is what it does atm
past fable
I just assumed its better to waste a strike from sepsis than to waste 4 cp
ivory kestrel
on opener i ignore first one
remote sparrow
^ the strike gives you a pv stack for your first rotten gb
ivory kestrel
outside of opener i use both
remote sparrow
which is quite nice
past fable
^ the strike gives you a pv stack for your first rotten gb
You already have one from the opener
And you could always just not gloom first builder
And strike instead
remote sparrow
hmm yeah youre right
ivory kestrel
no strike uses both rotten and premed
ivory kestrel
i dont really like not playing tfd that is why im trying to push a diff one
you also lose 1 global of flag ramp
and talenting swift death i really really
dont enjoy
remote sparrow
yeah swift is actually almost 100% a dead talent with this build
but tfd is also really awkward idk
ivory kestrel
i mean after trying both i will talk more but i still have 200 pages to proofread
and only 4h of day left now
after writing so much
remote sparrow
LOL yikes gl
ivory kestrel
but yea easiest one is just SoD on pull
past fable
Rotten is 30 seconds so you can def prepull it
35 second pull timer so i can rotten for pull
rugged solar
okay fair
past fable
But maybe you could 25s cd symbols and then swap XD
past fable
Nope that doesnt work either
rugged solar
oh thats nice
so 25 sec pre pull is actually just
easy gain
tho you get premed always
past fable
What
rugged solar
nvm had a thinking mistake
past fable
this is what it does atm
Fwiw using beacon during flag seems like a bad idea
Not specifically related to rotten but still
rugged solar
i did test limiting that earlier
because kieron mentioned it
but it was in both cases not a damage gain
(not using beacon during shb and not using beacon during flag)
pre pull symbols does sound rly good tho, lets try this
agile nymph
At the minimum can use before opening strike
rugged solar
you get additional damage on strike and a guaranteed crit
so can only be beneficial
and with that
we now have rotten beating non rotten
with potential of more improvements ofc
hmm
think this didn't work as intended
it used symbols pre pull
but 2nd symbols cast is on 25 secs
what seems weird
valid robin
its prob because of the symbols usage apl
when you vanish you get both dance and symbols up
and it doesnt want to use symbols at that point
i guess
valid robin
considering its a rotten talent build, its quite bad its delaying the use by 25 seconds
rotten prob needs different symbols apl
than regular
ivory kestrel
it is fine you use it prepull then after second dance's vanish clutter is done
rugged solar
because it says it ignores the pre-combat option
ivory kestrel
that is if you use it just on pull
rugged solar
rotten prob needs different symbols apl
yes, think so too
ivory kestrel
if you want to game rotten and still have symbols on cd you would still use it on pull
rugged solar
you probably can use symbols earlier with rotten
ivory kestrel
after first strike
valid robin
perhaps play more around makgin sure you consume the most rottens possible, instead of keeping symbols up
rugged solar
but dust
ivory kestrel
cant look at the sim but 25 secs in it is fine
as it would align with the second dance after using vanish and not clipping more or less but if it is not doing that no diea
ivory kestrel
yea it should use it after the 3 secs of second free SoD on second dance if it is not there something is wrong
and if you're doing the non subter one it does not add up it seems
after the strike finish
agile nymph
Wouldn’t you have symbols for the entire opener / two dances and after
ivory kestrel
idk with no subter how it really goes it does drop a bit after vanish and as you enter new dance
then using SoD after the premed strike should be fine there
ivory kestrel
that is if you game with swift death
that im quite against
and 30 secs prepulls seem cursed
i mean on pull
then dance symbols
vanish -it drops off a bit
dance symbols
after premed strike symbols finish stab
rugged solar
Wouldn’t you have symbols for the entire opener / two dances and after
basically
atm it does just symbols pre pull
without doing it earlier
but if you do it earlier you basically have symbols up again
agile nymph
Yea I mean even just using it right before the first strike covers a lot with inev
agile nymph
You’ll also have pv+lingering+rotten for second dance gloom no?
Seems like some nutty burst
valid robin
atm it does just symbols pre pull
why set it to 25 sec tho
rugged solar
25 sec is the cooldown of symbols
valid robin
cant it be worth using it 15 seconds before
ur not using symbols on pull anyway
it will be up mid dance where you'd get it during dance symbols pandemic
rugged solar
you potentially are
ivory kestrel
you use it on pulll
rugged solar
possibly just use symbols stright away
ivory kestrel
because vanishing resets it
valid robin
well isnt the idea to gain rotten on the first strike
rugged solar
because you get it back anyways from vanish
valid robin
from stealth
rugged solar
yes ofc
ivory kestrel
fuu means to use the rotten extra cp on the strike from sepsis
but i dont like that build anyway
so idk
ivory kestrel
you dont get fw up
agile nymph
Yea just symbols strike in opener
ivory kestrel
i would just symbols strike opener
valid robin
but i dont like that build anyway
well i only care about whats the best numerical build atm
ivory kestrel
but it makes sense in my build normal one is quite different with extra cps and getting fw up
well i will make it the best
valid robin
sure but
rugged solar
rotten is the best numerical already
my point is
there are some easy gains
with the additional symbols cast
in the opener
valid robin
yes
lets just try make rotten work with the top simming build rn
and then do hachas stuff
ivory kestrel
not a problem the SoD on pull i said was the easiest
valid robin
i personally have little faith in the subterfuge build, but if hacha can cook it up idm
rugged solar
^
ivory kestrel
one by one things
ivory kestrel
with the current build using swift we could have a 23 secs pull