subtlety

[timid rose]

i spent so much time in there chasing that stupid tank trinket when i mained brew in SL

[wheat edge]

now that would go crazy style

pull the entire graveyard and the pyramid staircase in one

[plush roost]

That would be the very first classic dungeon

[graceful osprey]

Zul everything M+

[plush roost]

I doubt

But would be cool

[wheat edge]

Deadmines or stratholme when!!

[lilac stag]

anyone actually looking forward to any of the midnight s2 dungeons?

[hazy breach]

Ye but it's also one of the best ones. But seeing as they did pit of saron I don't see why they couldnt

[plush roost]

Lightbloom vale or whatever will be fun

[wheat edge]

with Pit being as much of a banger as it was, I bet theres gonna be a classic dungeon within 2 patches

[plush roost]

I also think den of narolakk will be better than people expevt

[lilac stag]

idk

[wheat edge]

I like the theme of murder row but idk how it will play

it also felt a bit laggy as its in silvermoon

[plush roost]

Also voidscar arena

[graceful osprey]

I’d be interested to see what they add to classic dungeons for M+

[lilac stag]

which one has the gazillion trash packs

[plush roost]

Seems fun

Murdrr row

[graceful osprey]

BRD M+

[lilac stag]

I’m just planning rogue exit (unless we bring a useful buff).

[timid rose]

my monk is currently geared, we'll see what s2 brings

[wheat edge]

I also think some TBC dungeons could be made into m+

[lilac stag]

Dk hit 287 last night. Warrior wouldn’t take long either.

[wheat edge]

Hellfire ramparts 7min speedrun key

[lilac stag]

MAW please

[timid rose]

my dk is still 80 and none of these buttons make sense to me 😄

[wheat edge]

just press this one when it lights up

[lilac stag]

Our blood main turned on OBA and ran a 12 pit and did like 129k.

[timid rose]

idk that I can do oba

[wheat edge]

this is from a 10 pit, I dont like frostbane so I just play the raid build

[lilac stag]

What don’t you like with FB?

[timid rose]

oh, i loaded into unholy

[wheat edge]

I like thinking about 2 buttons, a 3rd is too much !

[earnest crane]

is it still big ?

[lilac stag]

UH is meta. Frost is really fucking good. Like devourer vs havoc

[wheat edge]

(I mainly hate having to go to ebon hold and swapping rune enchant)

[lilac stag]

Welcome to 2 button spec

[timid rose]

i mostly hate being in plate 😄

[hushed roost]

im having to play lura as dk too

[lilac stag]

You can mog around that

[hushed roost]

frost is okay, unholy just feels safer imo

better ranged, get to play rider etc

[timid rose]

ok, well i more mean i equate plate to slow 🙂

[lilac stag]

Unholy is range and not doing dumb shit for uptime

[timid rose]

no shadowstep... no roll... how do you get around?!

[hushed roost]

ya exactly

[lilac stag]

Horsey

[wheat edge]

im a plate class as you can clearly tell!

[earnest crane]

two horse and deathwalk

u dont knock back too on horse

[lilac stag]

Which 2h is that?

[wheat edge]

Ashkandur from mythic neltharion

[lilac stag]

Hmm. Thought I had that. Need purple for the voidelf

Frost is a lot of fun

[somber sun]

is there any purpose on gearing a dk alt ?

if the guild has already 3 dks

[wheat edge]

playing alts is fun

[lilac stag]

Unholy is like comfy slippers

[hushed roost]

i still miss rog though

unholy is so nice for prog though

[lilac stag]

I flat out asked if no raid buff changes, do you want me to roll off rogue.

Melee spots are just such a premium right now

[hushed roost]

bruh ngl im probabl going dk or ww too next tier

[wheat edge]

we are an insane amount of melee

[lilac stag]

We don’t have shout for crown

[wheat edge]

6 melee dps atm

3 dks, rogue, ret, warrior - mistweaver - tanks

[timid rose]

i just asked my RL if i could be DK next tier and he said no... my wife also asked why i was talking to myself.

[lilac stag]

Melee is me on sub, ret, dk & ww

[lilac stag]

nod Talking to raid leader honey.

What sucks is overall I enjoy sub. It needs some ironing out but I’ve not gotten zone out bored on it.

[hushed roost]

i did play fury/arms for 1 tier and i hated it

so

wait is ret fun too, dont you get some ranged

that aspect of dk is so liberating to me

[swift tinsel]

ret has long arms

[timid rose]

i'm enjoying sub b/c i can focus on mechanics and not rotation with it, and still do decent dps while raid calling.

[swift tinsel]

you still really need to be in melee as ret tho bc of the auto attack holy power thing though

[shrewd lantern]

I mean melee should have to be in melee

otherwise whats the downside

[hushed roost]

there is no downside to dk

KEKW

[swift tinsel]

^^

[random mason]

If you manage to somehow run out of ghouls at that exact moment you cant press a button

[hushed roost]

these mofos get their bugs fixed in 1 business day

how is that fair

[swift tinsel]

I mean you can still press buttons

you just don't summon a ghoul

[shrewd lantern]

I just dont enjoy other classes these days

ill prob quit if rogue gets super stale

[hushed roost]

i just really miss last tiers rogue

[swift tinsel]

I'm in full chill mode now just futzing around on alts

[hushed roost]

and then early season kind of left a bitter aftertaste

ngl

[swift tinsel]

finishing up 1k delve achieve

[hushed roost]

now though sub feels incredible

[random mason]

I miss last tier assa and i wish i tried more old outlaw

[timid rose]

i had to step away from monk when they took empcap/pottk away... i miss doing big palpatine lightning hands... finding sub to be a cozy home though

[hushed roost]

yeah especially 18 stack prism during amps holy sht

[random mason]

Monk i have to try again so i can off spec tank

Also the M+ build was so comfy

[shrewd lantern]

sub feels shit rn

sectech the spec

[swift tinsel]

not even anymore

[random mason]

And sudden demise in PvP was so funny even tho i didnt play much pvp

[timid rose]

i geared mine as brew, but even with brew gear and dabbling as WW it was feeling pretty nice, just needed a break to reset my brain on the new rotation.

[swift tinsel]

we aren't hyper-optimizing sectech nearly to the degree we were

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah sub is kind of oogabooga

rn

[hushed roost]

at least it hits hard now lol

before it was braindead and did nothing

[shrewd lantern]

It doesnt hit hard

the rest of the spec just doesnt do damage

[hushed roost]

i mean in raid rn

[hazy breach]

Idk what you are talking about

Sub does great damage now

[hushed roost]

really strong

[swift tinsel]

ye sub after buffs is truckin

[hazy breach]

Thats also without many people playing deathstalker on the ST bosses

[swift tinsel]

the gameplay isn't as exciting to me but the damage is there

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah but this is tbf basically late farm

meh

[hushed roost]

im down to flagellation rupture again please

[timid rose]

i'm never afraid the tank is gunna catch me in M+ either

[hushed roost]

KEKW

[hazy breach]

I mean yeah, once a spec gets buffed by 8% its gonna be good

Better than before

[shrewd lantern]

flag was only a bit more interesting when the button itself did damage

[wheat edge]

wtf!!

[shrewd lantern]

I mean its basically true

we’re decent on the windchime

[swift tinsel]

didn't hof just close

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah

[swift tinsel]

idk if I'd say its late farm

[hushed roost]

yeah like i said earlier, the early tier made me so jaded, enough to just play fuckin dk for m+/lura

[shrewd lantern]

well overall logs are mostly late farm bosses

i dont hate myself enough to do m+

forced content

[swift tinsel]

I don't really feel compelled to do any content atm

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah

[somber sun]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Essential:

• ArcUI / [AvijeCDM](<https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/ayijecdm) - Enhanced Cooldown Manager.
• WangBar / SensaiBar - Resource bar (when using blizzard CDM)
• MSUF / UUF - Unit frame mods.
• Platynator - Nameplate Addon.
  Quality of Life:
• Buff Reminders - Food/Flask/Poison Reminder.
• WilduTools - QOL enhancements.
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• The first dance tracker

[swift tinsel]

rogue is raid-log status

[shrewd lantern]

m+ is useless without title

[hushed roost]

got a sick beloren kill pull though last week

[swift tinsel]

alts are for concentration burning for raid consumes for next season

[shrewd lantern]

And if you try to do 15s and under rn you get people who eat glue for fun.

[hushed roost]

straight into logging out and logging into dk for wind chime KEKW

[swift tinsel]

and delve key running

might do just enough keys to get 3.4k for a mount idk

[hushed roost]

im no treally liking sub in keys either

[swift tinsel]

same

[hushed roost]

even for vault keys ive just been playing outlaw

but it does feel decent in raids

[shrewd lantern]

beloren post nerf

[swift tinsel]

ye I've mixed it up between sub and outlaw for weekly/rolling keys

[shrewd lantern]

you likely dont do jank hold

since boss just dies now

[hushed roost]

yeah its hella easy now

[shrewd lantern]

Though rogue feels fine for lura

Barely any agency you just waiting for crystal holders to not die.

[hollow raptor]

sub in keys for vault just goes by faster tbh

not super fun but its chores

[fast dome]

shuriken storm/black powder, rinse, repeat

[short radish]

outlaw rising

[minor osprey]

in m+ i want to play with the first dance but idk what to drop for it ?finality?

[short radish]

void touched

[minor osprey]

fuu said a while ago he plays with tfd and i noticed a lot of times where it would be useful

[minor osprey]

i'll try that

[short radish]

yeah

it's also very dungeon dependent

[hazy breach]

Can drop finality too, theyre all very interchangable

[short radish]

^

[hazy breach]

Especially if you havent got a lot of crit

[minor osprey]

:DDDD

[short radish]

like the only ones i probably wouldnt run it in are

Skyreach, MT and nexus point

MC you gotta drop combat a shit ton in the first area

[minor osprey]

nexus seem like a good one

[short radish]

seat youre running around

[minor osprey]

with the portals

[short radish]

AA youre runnig around

nexus is fake imo

because you only have that twice

it seems like that and i thought so at first

but youre pulling quickly after packs in nexus all the way through

but yeah AA lots of running around between packs

MT you might be able to, but thats pull dependent and you have some very large packs

WS you drop combat a lot

pit you gotta drop for each prisoner

[minor osprey]

i guess i'll see how it feels

[short radish]

skyreach is gogogo except for the one maze bit

yah

it's m+

you just play whatever feels more comfy for you

and vibe it

[minor osprey]

i already press dance a lot when i see downtime incoming

just to not overcap

the supercharged CPs stay after dance so i feel like its good

[short radish]

yah

[minor osprey]

when im close to 2/2 charges

[short radish]

nexus is really good for that

skyreach also in that running bit

[minor osprey]

true

1st boss rp

2nd and 4th too

after 3rd running

i got invited to skyreach as well

prayge 🙏

[short radish]

jia you

[ashen warren]

!guides

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[hollow spear]

gotta love to see the backstab soup in the sim

[minor osprey]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wQXhzVC7x6HLvPZm?fight=last&type=summary

felt nice

[vale pine]

you love to see it

[minor osprey]

which one is the buff after it's completed

must be the one i had on first pull

since it's already there

[edgy imp]

anyone using planned execution in high keys ?

[hazy breach]

You can if you want to

[vale pine]

!ui has an addon which helps with it

[wicked jolt]

Essential:

• ArcUI / [AvijeCDM](<https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/ayijecdm) - Enhanced Cooldown Manager.
• WangBar / SensaiBar - Resource bar (when using blizzard CDM)
• MSUF / UUF - Unit frame mods.
• Platynator - Nameplate Addon.
  Quality of Life:
• Buff Reminders - Food/Flask/Poison Reminder.
• WilduTools - QOL enhancements.
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• The first dance tracker

[minor osprey]

damn it can't be tracked with the blizz cdm

[calm wing]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rapid burrow]

I just found out that one can use the aldor shoulder enchantment on current season 1 gear

[hazy breach]

How much does that give

Because the shoulder enchants we have right now give a fuckton of tertiarys

[rapid burrow]

2 attack power + 1 crit lol

[hazy breach]

Not sure thats worth giving up 170 leech lmao

[swift tinsel]

no yours is perfect the big buffs scare me

[warm marlin]

coward talk

[hazy breach]

But also the cataclysm ones are 3 agi 1 mastery

Slightly better

[timid rose]

hmm, wait should i be running leech over avoidance?

[open depot]

Yeah

Don't trust your healers

[timid rose]

uhh, my healer prepares food for me and sleeps in my bed at night

[hazy breach]

I mean either is fine

But i like leech for keys because theres a lot of stuff avoidance doesnt work on

[upbeat cradle]

I'd trust that even less

[timid rose]

hmm, i may pivot that way, i'd gone hard in on avoidance but that does make sense, same reason i might take elusiveness over cheat death.

[small sleet]

You should pretty much always be running elusiveness in keys

[upbeat cradle]

I only use cheat death on MT because I know my healer and I don't trust him on the runeglaives, he always ''forgets'' me

Elusiveness is the best talent ever tho

[supple pawn]

hi chat

[upbeat cradle]

Hi Vesa

[supple pawn]

did it end up being an outlaw tier

[timid rose]

yeah, when i was first starting and learning rogue i had cheat death... decided to pivot to elusive and then first fight after i told my group, i got oneshot by bad 😄

[dusky yacht]

Sub tier every tier

[upbeat cradle]

I think we all went through that

[upbeat cradle]

Nah it's bench tier

[supple pawn]

f

[upbeat cradle]

Sub is good everywhere except paladins i think ?

Outlaw got shot between the eyes and isn't that good now iirc

[paper trail]

Wouldnt say we are great on dragons

Rest are good y

[supple pawn]

ah, gotcha

just hear that outlaw is cracked in keys

then realise i havent heard shit for rogue in raid

[upbeat cradle]

Outlaw is cracked in high keys but so is assa

And sub is definitely capable of doing 20s

[upbeat cradle]

Oh ye dragons are ass forgot about them

[plush roost]

Outlaw and sub are both very good in raid dont let the dk occult gaslight you

Besides paladins and dwagons ofc

[warm marlin]

😈

[upbeat cradle]

Honestly unless you're gunning for CE just play whatever you prefer

[plush roost]

https://tenor.com/view/kylo-ren-traitor-star-wars-gif-16767158544211392703

[warm marlin]

avoidance hasnt been better on rogue imo for a while

leech isnt amazing either

but feint will save you from anything avoidance works on

[upbeat cradle]

Yeah since we have feint i prefer leech over avoidance

Or speed

I like speed

Zyooooooom

[warm marlin]

speed kinda goated

[timid rose]

yeah, mostly just like to help the healer out when possible

[upbeat cradle]

I can leave the key even faster

[warm marlin]

leech is sorta mid on sub specifically because you are only gonna be healing a good bit from leech in cds

[fallow nimbus]

I got meme'ed for running speed enchants until most died to lura beam in p4

[warm marlin]

where you already have dr from fade

[warm marlin]

speed was sooo good on lura

even for glaives and stuff

[fallow nimbus]

Can't get dmg if dmg can't catch you

[west tide]

i like leech

[timid rose]

until you run faster than the beam in front of you and get hit by that instead 😄

[west tide]

it helps a bit

[grave wyvern]

does "bis" weapon are really important or i can just just keep my current myth one(edge of the burning sun) and upgrade it to 298

[timid rose]

uhh, myth edge is probably one of the better options unless something sims differently for you 🙂

[hazy breach]

Having high ilvl is by far the most important thing

Just upgrade whatever you have

[upbeat cradle]

tonight i'm gonna try the forbidden chimaerus tech

[somber sun]

ohh

the bait that you're gonna soak with your group when you actually won't ?

[dusky yacht]

No the double soak for omegapad on adds

[upbeat cradle]

^

triple soak

i'm in group 1 so i need to soak before transition too

[somber sun]

TRUE

I never thought about this

[dusky yacht]

Triple soak

Pad King

[somber sun]

so what

you save all cds until first soak

xddd

lowkey can grief some runs if ppl arent prepared for adds to spawn that fast

[upbeat cradle]

nah i mean

first soak i'm in anyways

it's just second soak

that's gonna have a faster spawn

i guess

and cds are theoretically back

for that too

just hope i don't get the kiss kiss debuff

i don't wanna kiss others

i wanna pad

[dusky yacht]

Damn yeah we should've foreseen people not having eyes

[upbeat cradle]

they still haven't noticed

only told the officers i'd do it

but the heals haven't said anything so

😄

all good

[torn turtle]

They’re all staring at their bars instead of mechanics

[upbeat cradle]

outpadding the boomkin

wiped in p2 tho 😂

[west tide]

how u go down without dying again

and then for the 3rd

[upbeat cradle]

first one soak normally

second one procs cheat death

third one use CoS

before he finishes cast

then you can soak again p2

and if you're REALLY a degen

go with your tank alone at the end to pad one last time

[west tide]

lmfaoo

[grim wasp]

whats this?

[upbeat cradle]

triple soak

ultimate add padding

(i'm not gonna do the fifth soak tho)

but your cd

comes back

right when second wave of adds spawn

[grim wasp]

too complicated for me good luck with that

[upbeat cradle]

not really

you just go soak the first two

and before intermission

you use cloak to still do mechanics

that's if you're supposed to do first soak ofc

if you're in second soak group then rip

guess you can do first and second soak

with just cloak

[warm marlin]

how does it change if you're second soak group

do you not still do soak cheat cloak

[upbeat cradle]

oh you just soak cloak

or soak cheat i guess

dunno i'm not second group

[warm marlin]

if you're going down every time the assignment should be arbitrary

[grim wasp]

So i disregard raid leaders order and just soak all groups to pad sounds great actually

I will say i did not hear well

[upbeat cradle]

i dunno i ask my RL if i could

they said sure

our second group

kills the adds slowly anyways

so i can just go in burst and go back to boss quickly

[grim wasp]

I will just do it without telling lets see how it goes next week

[upbeat cradle]

i don't condone that but go for it

ended up blue parsing

a fear killed me lol

BUT IT WORKS

[grim wasp]

https://giphy.com/gifs/moodman-YRuFixSNWFVcXaxpmX

[upbeat cradle]

i think i'd have done a good one if our hunt didn't fail their kick

[proper sun]

do we use aoe rotation on 2+ or 3+ targets?

[minor osprey]

outside dance yeah

in dance shadowstrike over suriken

[minor osprey]

also for 2 target u need the bp talent otherwise evis

[proper sun]

regardless of targets or?

[minor osprey]

up to 3 targets

it says all here

[proper sun]

I completelyy missed the part about dance xD

[west tide]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  If all of the above are true, use cast a Shadowstrike / Shuriken Storm (even if on full cp).

[verbal idol]

!so tricky

Question: is our "So tricky" talent, that extends "Tricks of the Trade" to 1 hour, is it bugged? It only shows it for 30 seconds

[hazy breach]

Hit something

[timid rose]

30 seconds to hit something, but once you do it sticks around for an hour. It's super funny if the tank dies and quick releases 😄

[earnest crane]

tank get insta aggro after release 😄

[timid rose]

just keeping the pull alive 😄

[west tide]

sub is amazing i fell in love with it again on lura

just a good ass spec man Ws in the shat

[timid rose]

no no no... it's a good sub spec... wrong channel for good ass spec chat 😄

[west tide]

heh

[light fog]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[fossil forge]

did anyone play ds on lura

if possible could u send logs so i can look at it

[lilac stag]

@left ledge ^

[quaint lodge]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/46?boss=3183&class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety&heroTree=53

all ds logs for lu'ra

[left ledge]

ye there's public logs

if you're going to ask why i sent blades twice with scuffed second dances

it was combination of tired+sick

DS demolishes that boss

[fossil forge]

yea i am only missing 400 haste

[left ledge]

eh you have infinite crests

how are you missing stats

[hazy breach]

Craft more haste

[left ledge]

just craft

yeah

[robust saddle]

exactly, just craft

[left ledge]

i was at like 1088 haste (with flask)

DS really solid on that boss

[west tide]

dam should i try it

[left ledge]

yes

[west tide]

we got to 6% p3 almost done ❤️

[left ledge]

it is genuinely very good on lura

like we dont really matter for crystals anyways

[west tide]

i must look at the rotation for ds

[left ledge]

its almost identical

[west tide]

noice

[left ledge]

just sit 1 stack of mark until your dance if its close

then dance macro - sectec - proc apex on DN

[west tide]

1000 haste is so much omg

[left ledge]

yeah its 10 GCDs

in cds

[west tide]

i probably have to craft 285s in some slots i have 289 in to make the haste work

[hazy breach]

Aetherlume

Is what the engineering crafts are called

Theyre practically free (besides the crests and spark ofc) and can have 100% of their stats in haste

So like 120 haste on boots

[west tide]

oo nice okay

[fossil forge]

fat

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-patrick-star-notes-noted-gif-26232003

[left ledge]

wait why boots though

wouldnt it be best to just craft rings and neck

[fossil forge]

probably boots and neck for me

[hazy breach]

Well you cant craft engineering rings

The other rings have 50/50 split

[west tide]

i have the umm raid neck with haste

[left ledge]

yeah i mean

i guess thats what i mean

[west tide]

and i crafted 1 ring already

[dapper karma]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[left ledge]

i just have trickster rings and DS rings

usually thats enough for stats

[west tide]

tfw my trick rings and ds rings are the same rings

[hazy breach]

If you dont have alleria neck or lura ring, its almost impossible to hit the 1.1k even if you have haste in all slots

[left ledge]

i dont have alleria neck or lura ring

[hazy breach]

Without the engineering crafts

[west tide]

oh u need 1.1k ?

[left ledge]

and i hit 1100 without engineering

[west tide]

fuccck

[left ledge]

unless you mean without flask

[fossil forge]

i am getting 290 haste from rings so thats probably ok

[west tide]

i think i just stay trickster then prob i cant make it man..

[left ledge]

like alleria neck 100% you can just craft two rings to make it no?

[hazy breach]

Ye ig crafted neck has more haste

[warm marlin]

you cannot craft 2 rings anymore

[left ledge]

oh what

[warm marlin]

they are unique eqipped

fun detected

[left ledge]

wow wtf

i didnt know that

ok

[earnest crane]

ninja turtle Feat kungfu panda ?

[left ledge]

yeah

[west tide]

is crit bad on ds

[left ledge]

its alright

its equal to mastery p much

i think mastery very slightly ahead

[earnest crane]

is gloomblade still exist 😄

[west tide]

hmm ok ill sim myself later

but im gonna miss my ilevel im 290.7 with trick

[left ledge]

ye but your DS

will prob do like 6-7k more ST dps

[edgy imp]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/eToTGPgfqW5UzNVF9XVeE1

93 % mastery

[somber sun]

eye of midnight lowkey goated for that

[somber sun]

tf that's crazy

think bonus damage from mastery starts to plateau around 900-1k

[fossil forge]

very similiar gear i just need to swap a few pieces around

[fossil forge]

dont have

[somber sun]

no rolls ??

[fossil forge]

no kill yet men

[somber sun]

just use heroic for the moment

swapped to it and got around 125k iirc ( no vantus )

[fossil forge]

we are like 5 pulls in

[somber sun]

ohhh gl then

do you guys prog daily or the usual 2d/week ?

[verbal idol]

Does Guidon's Light trinket need to be activated a WHOLE second, before Shadow Dance? or is 0.5 second enough?

[weary tree]

It's random so to be safe you do it the gcd vbefore your cds which is 1 sec

[hallow mortar]

sometimes even 0.1s before dance is fine

[weary tree]

Yep, but it's completely random and you won't know it

[verbal idol]

SOMETIMES? 🙁

[hallow mortar]

just gotta trust rng and send it

[verbal idol]

That's... such an interesting mechanic

[hallow mortar]

its not bad

[fossil forge]

2 times a week 3 hours

[hallow mortar]

i made shadowstrike macro with gudion for opener 😄

[edgy imp]

@somber sun

[somber sun]

ohhh mb then

[hazy breach]

Deepening shadows updates the duration of dance every second, but its almost impossible to know exactly when it does that. Most of the time 0.5s is more than enough

[somber sun]

appreciate that

[hazy breach]

But if you are unlucky it can be upwards of 1 second

[weary tree]

technically you have a 50% chance at 0.5 sec

[hallow mortar]

technically you need 1s every time

or 0.1 every time

depends

[hazy breach]

This is wrong btw

Thats the list with diminishing returns, but it turns out Deepening ignores the diminishing returns and goes straight of your stat values

[edgy imp]

cool but were talking about mastery

[brisk raptor]

I’m currently 281 ilevel on my sub rogue and I feel like I’m doing a ton of damage in mythic 16 and 17. My main is an unholy DK where I’m clearing 19s. I’m shocked at how many people say how bad sub is, I could see it not being Meta, but it doesn’t feel bad to me.

[paper vessel]

now play the other two, and come back to sub

[brisk raptor]

Are people just dooming or does it get that much worse when you go up a couple keys?

[plush roost]

Basically deepening starts a 1 second clock when you log in that persists until you log out. Nearly impossible to track (tho some silly addon enjoyers tried to varying success) so the 1 sec delay before dance is the best way to avoid shenanigans

[small sleet]

it does not get worse

sub is good in keys thisseasons

[brisk raptor]

Good to know. I just finished at 180 K overall in a 16 Mag Terrace with no Aug. Seems pretty decent to me.

[random mason]

other things are just even better and have more synergy with other classes

[plush roost]

Cope

[small sleet]

maybe not when you cant play it :/

[plush roost]

Smile

[plush roost]

Dems be fightin words

Im not being baited buddy

[brisk raptor]

I did have a warrior in my group so I guess that helps

[small sleet]

🙂

[plush roost]

Not until .7 when i get insane mastery pieces

[paper vessel]

sub is -okay- its 2 keylevels behind

[plush roost]

Smiles

[plush roost]

Its honestly on par with outlaw but requires larger pulls and specific gear

I just dont think anyone wants to push sub when law fits better

[small sleet]

its not 2 key levels behind

[plush roost]

Into what phys wants to do

Ye

Like my thought has been arms sub ele bear mw

With insane pulls every 3 min

Would go very very fast

But nobody wants to do that when its just discount meta comp

[paper vessel]

Outlaw is 1 keylevel behind the meta, sub/assassin are 2 keylevels behind

[hollow spear]

Ppl love discounts tho

[plush roost]

Every time someone says sub/assa is behind outlaw i want to jump off a cliff man

[left ledge]

sub is just not being pushed as

[plush roost]

Ye

[left ledge]

it is very strong though

[void ocean]

u called it 😄

[random mason]

no but only the highest key completed matters wdym

[brisk raptor]

Yeah it feels strong man. Im loving it

[random mason]

[plush roost]

[void ocean]

rolled 34 on main loot gaze and got belt from bonus, cya next week chima prisoner

[left ledge]

esp in nexus point

god damn

that burn boss

gets deleted

and on lura

[plush roost]

Yeah subs best keys are for sure npx and maisara

[small sleet]

if i can pug a 22 on sub, top players with coordination could EASILY time 23s

[left ledge]

ye maisara past first boss

[plush roost]

First area maisara with augdkdev route

Is good

Just not the boss

[hollow spear]

Two target cleave on sub kek

[plush roost]

Kekw

[random mason]

BP spam

[plush roost]

Me when i BP in 2 target and its a 1% increase over evis

[hollow spear]

What have they done to my beloved nimble

[plush roost]

[hollow spear]

Without PP it's a loss I think

[plush roost]

Ye

[random mason]

which dungeon you running without PP

[hollow spear]

But in M+ you're running it anyway

You don't

[plush roost]

I accidentally ran aa21 without pp

And 2x finality

[left ledge]

thats pretty bad

[plush roost]

Was like only 7k dps behind

[left ledge]

huh

[random mason]

i had an AA without picking up the dragon buff in the beginning

[plush roost]

Its surprisingly not that far behind

[left ledge]

do you have low mastery

[plush roost]

I forget what the sim was

[hollow spear]

People overvalue it a bit tho

[plush roost]

But they were pretty close

With pp obv better

[hollow spear]

Sim says it's not that giga ahead

Still int not to take it

[left ledge]

ah you're talking about a dslice sim or what

[plush roost]

In pure aoe you will always be behind

But u make up for it in boss dps

[hollow spear]

I'll leave that to the uhdk

[left ledge]

eh yeah but AA is such heavy aoe

[plush roost]

Eh

Aa is actually pretty mid sized

Outside of lashers

[hollow spear]

First pull is giga, afterwards it's mid

[random mason]

4 boss dungeon as well

[left ledge]

hmmmge

maybe yeah

i just feel like my aoe goes to absolute shit without pp

[plush roost]

Left side route is quite a bit larger tho

[hollow spear]

And MDI pulls don't count hehe

In my weeklies I sometimes feel like 2x finality is better

[hazy breach]

When i did big aoe sims PP was like +4% compared to finality, and its like -2.5% on ST

[hollow spear]

With the pussy tanks

[plush roost]

Yeah like i said

Relatively close

Ty eleem

[runic sinew]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

But the thing about finality is that you kinda want crit for it to be good

[hollow spear]

Should just ask the tank if they're racist and choose talents based on their reply

What do you want for dark brew? Asking for a friend.

[small sleet]

if there's any dungeon to do this in aa is a good one unironically

[hazy breach]

And i think the best setup for sub aoe now is to just skip finality whatsoever and masterymaxx out the wazoo

Tfd+pp with like 300 crit

1500 mastery

[hollow spear]

Hmmge

[small sleet]

im tempted to try no finality, but tfd feels so ehh to me

[hollow spear]

Pretty much my setup rn

[hazy breach]

Ye obviously not if youre chaining literally everything

But like AA you get a lot of procs

[plush roost]

Youre gaslighting bro best setup for aoe is very obviously 200 haste 1k crit 1.2k mast pizzlebox 2x finality pp no lashe

[hollow spear]

Since ds disliked crit, I've dumped it down to 300ish

[hazy breach]

No lashe is indeed better aoe

But

[plush roost]

[hollow spear]

The well known Chinese boss damage int play

[small sleet]

lashe is too good

[plush roost]

Way too good ye

[hollow spear]

Win 5 seconds on first pull, lose 25 seconds on boss

[hazy breach]

Its actually closer than you might expect, even in terms of prio damage

[hollow spear]

Closer to what?

[carmine birch]

dumb question.. was looking at the Archon opener in Class codex, Do we use Black powder and Shiruken storm? Or is that rotation just BS

[hazy breach]

To finality

[hazy breach]

Those are AoE spells yes

[carmine birch]

The opener didn't specifiy but noticed it was not on wow head. I get if its an AOE pull. but odd for single target

If that addon is ass ill remove it. few people reccomended it

[hollow spear]

I'm kinda lost rn Eleem, what are we comparing? 😅

[hazy breach]

Finality vs Danse

[hollow spear]

Oh rly

Could have sworn danse was just way past competition

[hazy breach]

For pure ST yes

For a mix of aoe and ST its a lot closer

[carmine birch]

I would assume its the debuffs they provide? but they weren't mentioned on wowhead so I was confused

[crystal blaze]

i gave sub another chance and it feels great

what are some of the weaknesses/drawbacks of the spec

[hollow spear]

Low target cleave is ass

See vanguard statistics

Good aoe, mid prio, no cleave, great single target

Imo

[carmine birch]

where does black powder fit in the rotation for ST? I fee like I don't have space for it.

[hazy breach]

It does not

[carmine birch]

ok. sorry for the dumb question. Just conflicting information

[small sleet]

class tuning wtf

https://www.wowhead.com/blue-tracker/topic/us/class-tuning-incoming-may-26-2308880

deathstalker slight buff lol

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker BUFFS?

What the frick

[latent remnant]

time to grab 400 more haste somewhere

[steel zinc]

probably haste flask

[plush roost]

What the

What the

What the HELLY

[steel zinc]

yup

[hazy breach]

Feral 4%

[steel zinc]

probably playing now deathstalker on more fights

[native zodiac]

deathstalker buffs 💀

[hazy breach]

Theyre gonna slap in keys now

[plush roost]

Ds assa buffs

In keys

[steel zinc]

how much % is this for sub?

[plush roost]

What are we DOING

[strange chasm]

DS BUFDF LMAOO

[pallid inlet]

they need to just delete deathstalker

[hollow spear]

What the helly

[small sleet]

i think feral is actually kinda mid in keys rn, they're so fuckin paddy

[hollow spear]

It's already 4.5% ahead in st

[alpine wraith]

wonder if it is even 1% for sub

[hollow spear]

Probably not

Mark damage quite low

But aoe maybe big

[small sleet]

definitely is

at least 1%

[alpine wraith]

could be mark dmg is not that bad tbh

[small sleet]

mark damage is like 4% on a random log i pulled up

[hollow spear]

My quick sim says 4.4%

Ok I'll take it

[small sleet]

so like 1-1.5% st

[alpine wraith]

a bit more prio too

guess ds will cement itself as the spec for laura

if crystal dmg is fine for the raid

[sly shore]

only caveat is needing 1100 haste

[sly shore]

🤢

[alpine wraith]

yea that seems like it

[hazy breach]

[small sleet]

damn im so good at guessing

LETS GO

[alpine wraith]

AAAAAAAaaAaAaAAa

[small sleet]

you can do ok crystal damage as ds, definitely still lowest in the raid

but like

4-5m

on a pull

[hollow spear]

Why does it feel like the aoe buff isn't so consequential?

[small sleet]

wat aoe buf

f

[alpine wraith]

because it is not really

[small sleet]

oh the clear the witnesses thing

thats irrelevant

[hollow spear]

Is arcane mage so back?

I want to level an alt

Wondering if they actually play missiles now...

[small sleet]

no they cant live

[hallow mortar]

i dont even know how to play DS properly 😄

i just wanna chill as tricskter

[placid pivot]

holy titanforged deathstalker buffs

[opal latch]

arcane and fire are dead

[hazy breach]

For sub these deathstalker buffs are basically placebo buffs to remind people of the hero talent

[small sleet]

trickster is still fine

[hazy breach]

Its already very good

But now its gonna be even gooder

[hallow mortar]

idk i dont feel like playing it on lura

[alpine wraith]

yea i guess most people not caught up in the changes does not know it is almost 5% ahead

not it will be solidly 5%

for most setups if the haste can be gotten

[hallow mortar]

let me check lura logs

[chrome palm]

I don’t think you can use that this way

[alpine wraith]

AI does not care

[marble path]

dont feel like pulling 500 haste out of my ass honestly

for like the 2 st fights

[alpine wraith]

you can craft wrist and boots

engi ones

[chrome palm]

This is the best proof that rogue isn’t developed by ai because ai rarely makes these mistakes

[alpine wraith]

oh then maybe it is a poor intern

[graceful osprey]

Seems like we got some DS buffs….is DS saved?

[alpine wraith]

ds was already ahead in st

still bad for m+ tho

[carmine birch]

These buffs are interesting..

[hollow spear]

That is proof to the least degree

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/you-keep-using-that-word-serious-what-you-think-it-means-gif-14679437

[graceful osprey]

After playing trickster for so long, my brain can’t handle DS anymore especially with the cancelaura

[hollow spear]

I also got confused reading that passage

Idk who started this cancel aura thingy

[sly shore]

1.5% of piss gameplay is still piss gameplay

[marble path]

real

[warm marlin]

did they write that ds is behind for sub on st

or are they saying its closest on st

i cant read this

[random comet]

i think they're saying it's less bad for sub ST

[ionic flint]

if its not a HUGE difference im not changing anything

its its HUGE for M+ i will change

[sly shore]

spoiler it's not

[ionic flint]

im on M lura so i am sticking with trickster for raid

[hollow spear]

https://tenor.com/view/real-gif-11459216359066836221

[crystal blaze]

its nice that theyre buffing the shit option and not just putting the good option into the shitter

[sly shore]

no one wants to play it now

they aren't gonna want to play it after

except that one guy who fucks with it

[hallow mortar]

subti and ropa played it on lura

[sly shore]

so my statement is correct

[warm marlin]

ds is much better on lura already

[plush roost]

Hi its me im that guyy

[sly shore]

ye but ur fucked in the head doing weird shit alreayd

[hollow spear]

I fuck with it too, I also suck with it

[hallow mortar]

he is not wrong

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker buffs

(click for notes)

Deathstalker got a ~1.5% buff. It was already very good on Singletarget, now its gonna be even better. It is now around 6% ahead of Trickster in ST with the right gear setup, and as a reminder Deathstalker wants around ~1100 haste (AFTER FLASK AND OIL), instead of the regular ~700. Its still very bad at doing any form of AoE, but at this point in the tier most small adds just get obliterated anyway so going full ST is not the end of the world of bosses like Averzian, Vorasius and Salhadaar.

Here are a couple of recommendation to achieve the Haste required, besides getting Haste on as many slots as possible:

• Flask of the Blood Knights
• Crafted Atherlume engineering items, these crafted items can have 100% of their stats in Haste.
• Eternal Voidsong Chain from Alleria / Eye of Midnight from Midnight Falls (Lura)
• The new Sporefall raid also drops a ring that is very Haste heavy.
• Do NOT replace your Eyes of the Eagle ring enchant for the Haste ones. It is not worth it.

Talent setup:
CUQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgx2MAAAAAwsMGLTMbbjxMjZwMzMzYMbDzMbbjZMzMjBjZWGAAAAGMmFzyADYBsNMhMLYGmZAmZGA
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1272165842158616659/1507524171884662904/image.png?ex=6a1236cb&is=6a10e54b&hm=c305c5a3994479c6b4d490da0e43245195966795c32beea8aeab12a976849de3&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=650&height=607

[lyric patrol]

Is it even possible to get 1100 haste or is that including haste flask

[hallow mortar]

i can do 1048 haste

with flask and food

[fringe nest]

need alleria neck and l'ura ring

or?

[random mason]

engineering crafts

[hazy breach]

No

[random mason]

can be full haste

[hazy breach]

You can craft items for it

[west geyser]

so guys

[random mason]

big haste rings are kinda farmable from M+

[west geyser]

im here for one question and one question only

is deathstalker going to be the move this tuesday

[west geyser]

oh nvm

just read this

thx

trickster it is

[dull sierra]

lmao

[marble path]

cant make me

[fringe nest]

idk

i barely have 600 haste

[hazy breach]

Idk Deathstalker doesnt even play bad as sub now

[marble path]

propaganda

[lofty sun]

I'm relatively new to Sub Rogue, I was watching Peekaboo in m+ earlier, why does he blades shadow dance sec tech then shadowstrike in aoe? then goes into black powder>shuriken spam? is that the rotation?

I've not been shadowstriking on aoe, just shuriken, justwondering is all >.>

[fossil forge]

Massssssive buffs

[strange chasm]

is there anything even crazy diff other than apex talen dn

[marble path]

why are we watching the minigame guy play the other minigame just watch someone better

[lofty sun]

I was just watching bro, tf? lol sorry.

[hazy breach]

That is the main difference yes

You generally want to get 2x DN per dance

[marble path]

apology accepted.

[lofty sun]

Nice input though 👌

[spring basin]

Why does it like haste so much? Longer SD for more ds mark damage?

[hazy breach]

So sit at 1 stack of mark > get 5 sht > eviscerate > dance+storm > apex DN > sectech

[hazy breach]

Longer SD so you can fit two Darkest Night per dance

[hallow mortar]

not the normal neck

[hazy breach]

And auto attacks do more damage with hunt them down

[spring basin]

Do we still want Guidon?

[hazy breach]

Yes

But it is a bit more involved than trickster, as getting procs of Quietus changes your mark timings a bit and you have to react to put it back to where you want it to be

[alpine wraith]

yea the x2 snap can be kinda confusing if you are new

[heady dragon]

assassination is still save from deathstalker

blessed day for it

i feel sorry for my blue name brothers

[alpine wraith]

ds is not that bad for sub now

funnily enough

[heady dragon]

its DS

[alpine wraith]

unless you want to do aoe then yea

[heady dragon]

you can cope all you want

it will always suck to play around the mark

[hallow mortar]

1150 haste

[jagged coyote]

Would this build apply to Beloren and Lura as well?

[paper stirrup]

is this build even possible without giga neck?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[worthy timber]

So with the buffs is it really worth regearing for single target raids or is it provably just better to stay trickster

[alpine wraith]

depends on your goals

[random mason]

depends on where you are and how far you progress yeah

[swift tinsel]

I ain't doing that lol

[random mason]

for voidspire just stay trickster

[swift tinsel]

we're on dragons anyways

[random mason]

if you're doing march only it should be worth it

[lyric patrol]

Right now every log is trickster tho?

[swift tinsel]

how far behind in aoe is ds with the changes?

[jagged coyote]

We are looking to finish Myth Crown this weekend, will be on March soon

[swift tinsel]

can't imagine the mark and storm buff move the needle that much for aoe

[jagged hamlet]

For DS 1100 haste then Crit>Mastery or 50/50?

[random mason]

yeah bc crests JUST unlocked

and no one was prepping DS

[swift tinsel]

aldrachi reaver havoc buffs tho

[random mason]

with uncapped crests you can just craft new gear to have a DS set and do like ~5% more ST

[lyric patrol]

Doesnt seem worth it for baloren i guess lura maybe

[worldly bone]

Is Sub still alright to run instead of Outlaw? I just read a buff was coming too 🙂

[spice matrix]

god damn deathstalker

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[worthy timber]

Progging myth paladins

[distant sage]

All specs are good

If you like sub more play sub

[random mason]

you could start working on it i guess, idk how good DS is on crown

[hallow mortar]

so we aim to enter dance with DN ready and use it before sectech so we can fit another DN in?

[dusky nymph]

DS is back hypeeee

skill expression intensifies slightly whoooo

I assume it still wom't be good in M+ but I'm still curious to try it out in weekly vault grind keys, any recommendations for that?

[tranquil sorrel]

ima be real bois

i wont play deathstalker even with the buff

that spec is absolute ass

[dusky nymph]

but... skill expression? :o

[west tide]

ima play it and gear for it for lura

cause fugg it

actually bro i could just not farm crests

and play some lego batman

thoughts?

[viral salmon]

pugging to try to kill mythic chim is so much psyhic damage

[swift tinsel]

was talking about ar havoc last night with friends and it gets buff notes today, its my sign

[somber sun]

willpower test

[heady dragon]

lego batman good

[west tide]

ok we not playin ds guys

[oak sorrel]

what slots can get the full haste engi crafts?

[hazy breach]

Bracers and boots

Helmet too if you are an engineer

[somber sun]

gotta do it for lura/bel !!!!

[coarse raven]

DS will be better on all fight exept drake and paladin ?

[random mason]

for boss dmg if you only sit on boss most likely

[hazy breach]

Nothing changes

Its still better at doing boss damage by a lot

Its worse at doing padd on smallies by a lot

[zenith flare]

holy fuck my sim stinks https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/d9ZhTWYsoqF1bDNf3Rinmp

[fringe nest]

i mean, your trinkets stink

[somber sun]

is this a sim from day 1 of current season ?

[zenith flare]

im rerollinng for last 2 bosses

from warrior

[somber sun]

cursed build

just checked the link

[hallow mortar]

nah im not playing DS its too cooked

[somber sun]

is it that bad ?

look fun ngl

[hallow mortar]

i mean you can enjoy it

[tribal blade]

HUGE

[zenith flare]

NAH NO WAY GAZE AND LIGHTS are 1k DIFF
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/hsrudCzfnxA3aigZ1J4WcV

[tribal blade]

might as well /cry

[swift tinsel]

I will do no extra work besides equipping whatever I have in my bags lol

champ track crown neck it is

[lilac stag]

Better off rerolling DK for last 2

[swift tinsel]

or equip my pit neck and use flask for 1105 haste

[west tide]

its already dead man

[lilac stag]

Giggity

[zenith flare]

too late we prob start beloren on wednesday

[lilac stag]

@warm marlin imagine being asked to reroll rogue.

[lilac stag]

my condolences

[zenith flare]

i mean it has good dmg on egg and p4 right ?

[somber sun]

why

[hazy breach]

Sub is very good

[somber sun]

he is gonna carry trust

[lilac stag]

yeah it’s good. Dk just better

[somber sun]

kappa

[zenith flare]

But rouge is faster

=

better

[somber sun]

yeah follow your heart

[zenith flare]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6EjsdU61EvS66NUBXF91aN

Hopefully i get these trinkets monday

[lilac stag]

Oh Jesus they buffed

[somber sun]

W buff

actually good they didnt nerf our class

was expecting that

[lilac stag]

My reroll from rogue with a delve trinket and puzzle box.

[somber sun]

you mean full heirloom gear

[lilac stag]

Add 3500 with gaze

[zenith flare]

Brother i do not know how to fix my gear

[reef canopy]

Am I a horrible person if I race change to drakthyr rogue?

[lilac stag]

maybe?

[somber sun]

how fun is frost dk now btw ?

[surreal orbit]

oh baby

[somber sun]

only tried it rq on tww

[lilac stag]

is there a correlation?

[somber sun]

always

[somber sun]

just try to get myth track 4 piece set + 286-298 bis trinkets and finally 298 mh/oh

should solve 99% of your problems

you can just craft the 2-3 other pieces ig

[hazy breach]

Its not nearly as bad to play now

[tribal blade]

that's true yeah

it's just funny

[zenith flare]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

It feels very unnatural after years of trickster

[graceful rock]

what haste do i not go over

[chrome palm]

my problem with deathstalker subtlety is mostly the latter part

[peak ice]

Goddamit

Don’t make me change

[tribal blade]

yeah i'm on the fence about this

i mostly wonder if we'll actually see people swapping

or if it'll be the same as before

[peak ice]

Seems like a decent buff no?

[hazy breach]

Placebo buff

[spiral needle]

people are already resistant to swapping while its almost 5% ahead

[hazy breach]

1.5% is almost nothing

[spiral needle]

it has its fans...but most simply dont like it

[hazy breach]

Im pretty sure 90%+ of the haters havent even tried it this patch

And are just basing it of the tww version

[peak ice]

Wait is it only 1.5%

[spiral needle]

i dont like it on the basis that they had to add a whole extra button just so it functions properly, bad design

[hallow mortar]

I did play it a lot

On ptr

[granite lark]

6 on st ahead

[wispy crystal]

!haste

[wicked jolt]

Secret Techniques cooldown gets reduced by all haste sources, while Shadow Dances duration only gets increased by Haste Rating from gear or consumables. When using an on-use haste trinket, make sure to use it a bit before Shadow Dance to get the extended duration.
The recommended ~700 haste gives you two additional globals in Shadow Dance and Guidon will grant one extra on top of that.

[hazy breach]

You almost never have to use the button

[wispy crystal]

Do we macro our haste trinket to blades?

E.g light of guldon

[granite lark]

no..

[wispy crystal]

I thought both are 1.5mins, wouldn't that make it convenient?

[patent crystal]

wasnt that bad, just sleeper

[peak ice]

Read guide

[swift tinsel]

idk I still don't really enjoy it, but that's me

[spiral needle]

I know, but it still shows that maybe designing an entire heroic tree around having a debuff on a target is problematic

[swift tinsel]

even with the appropriate haste

[wispy crystal]

Wow there's class tuning

Didn't even realize

[worldly root]

should be a personal buff tbh

[granite lark]

getting the haste seems trouble

[peak ice]

Especially if ur trying to avoid recrafting gear yea

[woven nimbus]

I mean 6% is a bit but with all the cleave and the haste Situation id assume most rogues will just stay trickster after prog

[swift tinsel]

it feels kinda awkward to sit on dn for a few sec with no cp for a few sec before dance but being able to sc apex DN evisc -> sectech is kinda fun

[granite lark]

6% is pretty large, most people scrounge for sub 1% gains on vaults atp

[hazy breach]

Well ideally you dont do that

[granite lark]

and if you're on reclear who really cares about swapping it up, might as well try something different if you can make the cap

[hazy breach]

You sit on 1 mark > get 5 sht > eviscerate > dance+storm > DN with apex > sectech