yes
#subtlety
paper stirrup
yeah me too but i recently moved all keybindings because of handpain
shrewd lantern
👴
paper stirrup
shift + 1 for evis wrecked my hand, so i moved everything and struggling to get used to it
shrewd lantern
alt 1 better
quaint lodge
!aa
wicked joltBOT
Apex talent optimization:
- Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
If all of the above are true, use cast a Shadowstrike / Shuriken Storm (even if on full cp).
void ocean
Had finishers on mouse wheel up probably since I first learned about keybinds
glacial hinge
how does a sim can put " 9 gcds in a dance" while in a quick sim of my gear and my haste i only get 8?
hazy breach
9 is only with guidon
hazy breach
yes
ripe flame
That's basically 9
daring pike
do i need to land between 684-700 haste WITH or WITHOUT weapon Oils
hazy breach
that is 9 globals
ripe flame
8.1 is basically 9 gcds just not very humanly possible
hazy breach
Well your first global is at 0 seconds of dance right
glacial hinge
might be rly a dumb question but was trying to get the 700 haste and its a downgrade on all scenarios
warm marlin
not robotically possible with coup
glacial hinge
Well your first global is at 0 seconds of dance right
yes
ripe flame
not robotically possible with coup
True, forgot about the coup gcd shenanigans
hazy breach
yes
So if were disregarding any delays or coup gcd stuff, after 8 seconds you have used 8 globals yes
regal pollen
#showtooltip vanish
/stopattack
/use [nocombat] !stealth
/castsequence [combat] Vanish; Stealth
hazy breach
At which point you have 0.6s to hit another global
glacial hinge
aight, makes sense not making sense
xD but ty for the explanation
so basicly
i should go get the 60 haste
to make sure i hit the mark
void ocean
Sub rogue, the master of crangles
glacial hinge
even if its a "dps" loss at sims
glacial hinge
cuz making the 700 haste from the 648 resulted in 1.4k dps decrease
void ocean
Which ss
shrewd lantern
storm
void ocean
Sure
void ocean
With enough targets its peachy
void ocean
Well its Midnight
hazy breach
Well you did that in tww too
void ocean
SL memories
void ocean
We dont talk about tww s2
swift tinsel
You’re just missing the redundant buff setup of TWW
Otherwise it’s the same abilities once you’re actually in cooldowns
warm marlin
Well you did that in tww too
no! storm outside of dance, evis at low target cleave, bp at higher target, you used 2 builders and 2 spenders in keys aoe
hazy breach
Everybody just pressed eviscerate anyway
cedar lance
has anyone seen the bug (i guess its a bug but dun no) where you canot not back to back SD after Use your opener with the trinket: light Company Guidon?
i lose like 3 Sec SB without SD bc SD is on CD, any fixes?
hazy breach
has anyone seen the bug (i guess its a bug but dun no) where you canot not back ...
Use guidon upto 1s before your first dance
So you actually get the duration increase
swift tinsel
I’ve been playing outlaw and AR havoc to feel something
Praying for devourer downfall
void ocean
Do u guys press dance when guidon lands or is it too long to wait
potent pilot
Is there a way to combine guidon and shadow dance into a single macro and have shadow dance be extended by guidon?
proper temple
!blades
wicked joltBOT
Trickster Shadow Blades Optimization:
During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back. This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.
hazy breach
Is there a way to combine guidon and shadow dance into a single macro and have s...
no
void ocean
We need Thread.Sleep in our macros 😂
half comet
assuming optimal gear etc how many gcds inbetween dance are u supposed to get
in blades
void ocean
I have a timer with milliseconds
where did u get that timer with ms?
stoic anchor
what happens if u start coup de grace on a mob that dies mid animation. does CDG stop?
rugged condor
on lura going into p3 knockback soaks, do people step one of the people close to them mid knockback to momentum cancel and land on soaks?
rugged condor
🫡
latent remnant
praying the premeditation apex thing gets fixed soon it's so depressing backstabbing so long during opener
hazy breach
Its not a bug
So its not gonna get fixed until a patch reworks it (which i wouldnt hold my breath for)
vast dust
I’ve been confused about super charged combo points. Can I go into an opener with 7 super charged combo points going? Or does the attack only register 2?
hazy breach
When you pull a boss or start a dungeon it resets down to 2
deft oar
you can do once, so you start with 2, and get an extra 2 on the first dance for a total of 4
void ocean
what funnel dmg
hazy breach
also is our funnel damage still good?
Hasnt been in a loooong time
But yes if you have potent powder specced you bp on 2 targets
chilly tree
last i played was in DF when you could ss>evis
native zodiac
gg rip
hazy breach
Which was the case in DF too
void ocean
I still storm into evis outside of cds with prio target, faster cps than just st
Like in MT with those portals
shrewd lantern
last i played was in DF when you could ss>evis
that wasnt really funnel
left ledge
also is our funnel damage still good?
we havent had funnel since shuriken combo
it was fake propaganda
grim wasp
Hi im missing 20K dps at the moment. The wowhead guide is confusing for me for sub on rotation and i think im pressing the wrong thing
void ocean
Which part
lilac stag
we havent had funnel since shuriken combo
I don’t think people are ever going to understand this in here
grim wasp
im writing the whole thing in 1 paragraph would be easier to explain what im doing and which i think is wrong
left ledge
I don’t think people are ever going to understand this in here
tbf i had people in DF malding at me for pressing black powder
i forgot who but some idiot propagated the lie of sub funnel
some m+er
i forget who it was
but i cba for fotm rogues making guides where they dont even apply find weakness
lilac stag
Hi im missing 20K dps at the moment. The wowhead guide is confusing for me for s...
Did you look for it in #subtlety-faq it maybe hiding there.
void ocean
but i cba for fotm rogues making guides where they dont even apply find weakness
Hearing fotm and rogue in the same sentence other than "rogue is never fotm" feels weird
lilac stag
but i cba for fotm rogues making guides where they dont even apply find weakness
It’s really fascinating to me if you look back at all those that have had a short vacation on rogue that insist many of the vets are just flat out wrong at every turn.
grim wasp
Single target
1- i do opener shadowstrike plus vanish and shadowstrike. if i do not get apex i backstab like 2 or 3 times and if i do not get any apex proc i just press shadow dance to get energy to press something or else i have no energy. Should i just continue to backstab until apex and then activate stuffs or activate stuffs and use finishers even without apex if i run a full shadowdance and it does not proc?
2- if i get the double finisher proc do i double finish or do i get finish and proc apex again ? I was thinking it made to sense to get apex again what would be the point of the proc so i use 2 finisher.
3- For shadowblades do we hold 2 charge of shadowdance always?
wicked joltBOT
Apex talent optimization:
- Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
If all of the above are true, use cast a Shadowstrike / Shuriken Storm (even if on full cp).
grim wasp
so its fine to keep using shadowstrike until i get a proc even if its going to make shadowblades run out and i wont use any finisher
void ocean
No, u need to take supercharged cp into consideration
If u spent both supercharged cps u dont fish for apex anymore
And also look at sht stacks
If u dont have 5 dont strike on full cp
hazy breach
If youre just starting out and getting confused by this, start of by just never striking twice at all
chilly tree
its only a 1% difference to pay attention to it, sounds like youre losing more than 1% by trying to make it happen
also dungeonslice vs an actual dungeon is not the same
grim wasp
If u spent both supercharged cps u dont fish for apex anymore
How would i spend the supercharged cp if i need to shadowstrike on full cp? I do not understand this part
what is sht stacks?
void ocean
How would i spend the supercharged cp if i need to shadowstrike on full cp? I do...
U will spend it when apex procs
grim wasp
oh yes shadow techniques i learned how it works this week
grim wasp
U will spend it when apex procs
so even if in two shadow dance apex does not proc i keep hitting shadowstrike
hazy breach
No
lament brook
Does PI extend subs dance duration?
wicked joltBOT
Secret Techniques cooldown gets reduced by all haste sources, while Shadow Dances duration only gets increased by Haste Rating from gear or consumables. When using an on-use haste trinket, make sure to use it a bit before Shadow Dance to get the extended duration.
The recommended ~700 haste gives you two additional globals in Shadow Dance and Guidon will grant one extra on top of that.
grim wasp
got 730 haste when i oil the daggers
toxic igloo
So like., is Blind with Airborne Irritant bugged? It doesn't destroy but one orb with the m+ prefix
nocturne tendon
No
not really possible for apex not to proc within 2 shadow dances. just to make sure we're on the same page here, we're talking about Ancient Arts procs
woops wrong reply zz
hazy breach
So like., is Blind with Airborne Irritant bugged? It doesn't destroy but one orb...
Yep, you need to target something that isnt the orbs and have it aoe from that mob
toxic igloo
Huh.. Crazy
grim wasp
not really possible for apex not to proc within 2 shadow dances. just to make su...
well this week i understood the importance of being stealth to open. i use to walk with the others and cast shadowblades to start using shadowstrike.
I had cast puzzlebox potion racial shadowblade and shadowdance and it only procced at the end of second one
void ocean
I mean tbh no way id tab to those little fckers, if aoe gets em, good
grim wasp
now i make sure i start in stealth
void ocean
Well without premed its not that important 😂
nocturne tendon
you kinda want to get max combo points before dancing either way
south sedge
how come sometimes after i vanish i immediately exit stealth?
grim wasp
I really need to improve on the sub rotation the wowhead guide is not so straight forward
nocturne tendon
well this week i understood the importance of being stealth to open. i use to wa...
in aoe situations you'll want to shuriken storm until max CP, in ST it's more or less the opener you described with some adjustments based on potential leftover combo points/ShT stacks from previous pulls, but you shouldn't worry about that before smoothing out the basic gameplay loop imo
spend some time on a dummy, it reads more confusing than it plays
void ocean
I really need to improve on the sub rotation the wowhead guide is not so straigh...
Lemme try to compile a lil scenario for u with decision making
grim wasp
On double finishers do we use both finishers?
alpine wraith
On double finishers do we use both finishers?
depends usually yes unless second one would be supercharged
and you dont have apex
then you strike or storm again to apex it
drifting ether
praying the premeditation apex thing gets fixed soon it's so depressing backstab...
Wanna see something funny my ss macro didn’t work for abit
grim wasp
Wanna see something funny my ss macro didn’t work for abit
do we need a macro for shadowstrike?
hazy breach
No
void ocean
U have full cp and no apex proced, u fire the dance and sec tech macro, there goes your first supercharged cp, u have no cps at this point so u hit one strike and u r back to full... Now since u have dance active, u have 1 supercharged cp u look if ur apex proced. If it did, you pop a finisher, if id didnt u take a look at ur sht stacks, if they r 5 or more u strike to prox apex then finish. If they r under 5 u go straight to finisher and with it ur 2nd supercharged cp is gone and u continue with regular build spend rotation till the dance finishes
drifting ether
Nah I just used the ss/bs one since but you don’t really need it
grim wasp
depends usually yes unless second one would be supercharged
too technical for me im lost here sorry
somber sun
A bit out of context, but do parses take into account your gear's ilevel ? Like do I get a score depending on my performance based on my gear or just in general ?
tepid trellis
If you are starting out ignore apex minmax just finish normally at 6+ cp always
hazy breach
A bit out of context, but do parses take into account your gear's ilevel ? Like ...
I doesnt take anything into account
All it does is rank your dps versus everybody else
drifting ether
I think just raw damage
hazy breach
Rankins based on ilvl can easily be manipulated, as you can have like full bis gear, unequip one pair of bracers and do insane damage at like 240 ilvl
grim wasp
U have full cp and no apex proced, u fire the dance and sec tech macro, there go...
makes abit more clear now Ive seen in a log as well 1 rogue had nearly double my damage in shadowstrike do i finish too much in shadowdance
hazy breach
makes abit more clear now Ive seen in a log as well 1 rogue had nearly double my...
Weve told you several times that no, you should not be casting more shadowstrikes
grim wasp
If you are starting out ignore apex minmax just finish normally at 6+ cp always
Not starting out was just pressing approximately
hazy breach
!guides check out these or the #subtlety-faq
formal pollen
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
grim wasp
maybe i check method guide as well the wowhead one left me confused abit
grim wasp
Weve told you several times that no, you should not be casting more shadowstrike...
yes today i learned that i thought i had to strike more
sullen glen
!macros
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique
Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm
This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.
/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call
Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:
/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder
You can find more macros and details in Guides like 
WoWhead or 
Icy Veins.
grim wasp
!guides check out these or the <#856897746128207892>
method guide i cant see about apex or shadow techniques much
lucid jackal
99% of sub rogue is just "press dance + sectec together, press shadowstrike to build and evis/BP to spend"
spend at 6+
grim wasp
the rotation and what to press is clean but like wowhead it does not integrate it well with Apex .
Luvchild scenario was good
lucid jackal
Ignore the apex minmax until you understand the basics
rain swift
😭
lucid jackal
!aa
wicked joltBOT
Apex talent optimization:
- Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
If all of the above are true, use cast a Shadowstrike / Shuriken Storm (even if on full cp).
lucid jackal
This is the apex minmax
Its when you are, in dance, you have 5 stacks of shadow technique, AND SC together WITHOUT aa active, you press SS again
You can ignore this its like 1%
grim wasp
This is the apex minmax
its alot of difference? I thought it made like a lot of difference
lucid jackal
its like 1.5% or smthing
Until u like, understand the spec fully dont bother with it
grim wasp
Thanks i thought if i would not understand this i would get all wrong
i will not think about it much now
Better i focus on how to pad meters and how to pad on every fights
lucid jackal
Its better to learn how the spec works at a baseline level before bothering with minmaxes
alpine wraith
yea i would actually recommend to not thing that much about alla optimizations until you can do these 3 things
use all gcds in dance
nocturne tendon
as you get more familiar with the buttons you'll notice that sometimes you'll be proccing the apex naturally and you'll be using a finisher twice. the idea of the supercharge minmax is to force that at a specific moment and eventually you'll know what to do
alpine wraith
first finisher sec tech
grim wasp
Its better to learn how the spec works at a baseline level before bothering with...
True and 1.5 percent wont change much to my objective of the game for now. rotation is better
alpine wraith
and save 2 dances or know you will have 2 dances for blades
void ocean
Its better to fire guidon 1.5sec before burst than 0.6sec, right, haste in that last second is not that important as long as we cover both dances and maybe 2nd sec tech, right?
grim wasp
Do you guys know if there is a like a guide that explain for each bosses when to pad?
elder parcel
**Apex talent optimization**:
- Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Ye...
do we know around how mucch extra dps increase this would contribute?
alpine wraith
i used to make mythic guides but they got like 20 views so i kinda stopped
lucid jackal
like 1.5%
elder parcel
ty for answers
alpine wraith
just go into lorrgs and look at people's timeline
grim wasp
i used to make mythic guides but they got like 20 views so i kinda stopped
mythic raid guides or mythic plus?
hazy breach
Yes, its stated in the #subtlety-faq. Its around 1%
alpine wraith
both were very unpopular
grim wasp
just go into lorrgs and look at people's timeline
so smart i did not think about that
Tomorrow i need to analyse the bosses and top rogues to know when to press cd
to pump meters
hazy breach
99% of the time its just on cd
grim wasp
like best moments e.g. when an add is spawning to cleave it and add on damage
void ocean
And if mechanics overlap, just ignore em 😂
Like me on hc deamrift today on my dk, they put me in 1st grp so i never went down 😂😂
nocturne tendon
your main pad tool also happens to be your main damage tool, and i mean main
holding too much = big dps loss overall
grim wasp
you just CD on CD
an example on alleria i wait for the little miniboss to get the debuff then i put my cd it comes after everyone used there own to bring him down then i do big damage on him or on dragons where i do not need to spam blackpowder on the adds but will still try to get as many as i can
void ocean
Its better to fire guidon 1.5sec before burst than 0.6sec, right, haste in that ...
Any takes on this?
lucid jackal
idk what ur even asking
lucid jackal
an example on alleria i wait for the little miniboss to get the debuff then i pu...
Idk I think ur just overthinking it
CD on CD, and when ur more comfy, learn to move stuff around slightly
Ur skipping ahead the learning process to learn pointless shit imo
learn fundamentals and heuristics and then go from ther
grim wasp
Idk I think ur just overthinking it
its like you know not to press the key when it is needed for like efficient damage but to press it at the right time to increase the numbers
void ocean
no reason to wait more
Well not that i want to but cant rly be super precise so im basically asking if its better to go over a bit than under
alpine wraith
you can just macro guidon to something so you go on globalñ
then just enter dance as global ends
void ocean
Whats on global that doesnt use energy
grim wasp
your main pad tool also happens to be your main damage tool, and i mean ***main*...
i press everything on cd except when i know i will have to hold it for some seconds for a better pump
alpine wraith
Whats on global that doesnt use energy
using energy is fine now that the krangled bug got taken care of
but you can also use the fuu opener if you play without premed
void ocean
So should i readd distract 😂
nocturne tendon
Well not that i want to but cant rly be super precise so im basically asking if ...
1.5 is nbd just make sure you got the extended dance tbh
alpine wraith
that one has global from first strike
tidal solstice
i just put guidon on my shadowstrike
void ocean
1.5 is nbd just make sure you got the extended dance tbh
I assumed losing like last 0.5s of guidon is not too important
tidal solstice
separate modifier for that one
nocturne tendon
you don't have to be ultra giga precise with guidon the same way you gotta be with dance globals
void ocean
I kinda started to take a look at cd
When cd goes from 1:30 to 1:29
Hell breaks loose 😂
Also looking at my shadowblades bar, if 11s left after first dance is over: good
If its 13: i fcked up
nocturne tendon
always better to have a slightly early guidon than a slightly late one 
void ocean
Yea, i figured thats the case just wanted to be sure in case im missing smth
nocturne tendon
i like how most of sub's gameplay complexity comes from the various forms of jank we have to navigate
tidal solstice
i like AA and cdg and shtc
adds nuance without getting in the way, can learn the basics then progress to fine tuning and slick plays
compact violet
bird down, finally killed with puzzle box instead of guidon, better for egg dmg but u have ridiculous dmg on p1 :p
ending close to the elem / ww pack as sub
i think u can stack rogue on this one its very strong for soak aswell
replace the useless hunters 😄
somber sun
you mean dhs 
lilac stag
Stacking rogue. That’s hilarious
old jay
Can anyone tell whats the stats for SUB M+ ?
swift tinsel
where did u get that timer with ms?
I made it in Arc UI
twin quartz
My only change is using mastery flask instead of crit in m+
ember hull
What build we using on fallen king now do we take the improved black powder?
twin quartz
Eh, I wouldn’t bother trying to aoe too much on that fight
For the parse sure but
Doesn’t matter too much for the kill
swift tinsel
Arc was wigging out before and I couldn’t see my RtB or BF buffs
elfin hound
is there a way on beloren to check add dmg when they're in egg?
peak ice
Does anyone else get like a beeping/chiming sound during fights? I’ve checked my add ons and it doesn’t seem to be that
fiery fog
whats up with warcraftlogs displaying wrong dps numbers in the list?
one guy has 187k on hc crown in the list, you click on the log and its actually 118k?
hazy breach
Prob some issue with the "removing damage to adds" bit for the parses
fiery fog
ohh
left ledge
some damage doesnt count in logs + if you have aug that also changes numbers a bit
peak ice
Might also be moving the evokers damage buffs too
left ledge
Does anyone else get like a beeping/chiming sound during fights? I’ve checked my...
sounds like dbm
hazy breach
Pretty sure default blizzard boss timeline does that too
left ledge
oh does it
hazy breach
When you are targeted by stuff
left ledge
i have bigwigs so i wouldnt know
peak ice
Its too frequent to be a boss timer pretty sure
Might be something in cdm that I missed
tribal blade
found out yesterday arcane mage is being incorrectly attributed aug dmg
brave moth
Anyone surprised
hazy breach
found out yesterday arcane mage is being incorrectly attributed aug dmg
Sudden Demise aint either, and im pretty sure caustic isnt either
tribal blade
Sudden Demise aint either, and im pretty sure caustic isnt either
damn sad
normal falcon
!sims
wicked joltBOT
Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
graceful rock
egg p1 holy
heavy steppe
so i currently have 792 haste which is about 22%, when i sim myself, its saying my crit/haste crafted pieces are better than my crit/mastery. is that correct or should i still lower down to roughly 700 and recraft my haste pieces to mastery?
short radish
egg p1 holy
show crits and alnseer uptime
obtuse relic
How much of a loss is it in keys if ur tank is constantly chain pulling and you can get restealth half the time
short radish
approx 0.1%
obtuse relic
approx 0.1%
Really that low? So doesn’t matter if we get into stealth before the next pack
short radish
Really that low? So doesn’t matter if we get into stealth before the next pack
like maybe you lose some value compared to everyone else because you cant restealth for tfd
coral bear
Cause like, im doing pvp rn, and im kinda cheesing cause I do mythic content
coral bear
Im like having a dilemma
So, pvp daggers are shit
they dont have good stats
so im rocking the raid dagger
mythic one
But theres this new item that came oout
So now im stuck
having to be like, welp i cannot upgrade pve daggers anymore
gotta use the pvp one, but idk if i should use the pvp dagger, which has crit, which i dont want
or equip a sword
as my 2nd hand
and have this, by me 2nd weapon
Cause crit is useless
for pvp
vocal carbon
but you sitting out of combat for 6 seconds
Then why do all the top sub rogues take the talent? Sounds like a wasted talent point if it’s a .1% dps increase. Also where are you getting that percent?
short radish
Then why do all the top sub rogues take the talent? Sounds like a wasted talent ...
because we get enough restealths due to dungeons anyway
you dont need to restealth every pack
i pulled the percent out of my ass and made it up
vocal carbon
i pulled the percent out of my ass and made it up
Makes a lot more sense
tidal solstice
because htey are running with a premade
short radish
like top rogues pick it sure
tidal solstice
are you
short radish
but theres 0 chance the tanks are waiting on pulls for them to restealth
it's just the nature of the dungeons this season has enough restealth opportunities
vocal carbon
Tanks have never waited for restealth
tidal solstice
its simple - are you on voice with your tank in a premade? take TFD
exotic steeple
praying for devourer and udk downfall
short radish
i mean you can play tfd without premade
you just gotta be a bit more creative in dropping combat
i can't really think of many/any times the tank is chain pulling on 1% health mob
tidal solstice
"bit more ccreative" = not doing dps from the jump
tidal solstice
its kinda dungeon dependent true
vocal carbon
Just restealthing and waiting the 3 seconds is so worth it and it’s like a 1 second stop chain pull
short radish
nexus drops it a bit
tidal solstice
Just restealthing and waiting the 3 seconds is so worth it and it’s like a 1 sec...
3? its 6
short radish
Just restealthing and waiting the 3 seconds is so worth it and it’s like a 1 sec...
it is more efficient to chain the mob on 10% hp
than for everyone to sit there auto attacking it down
vocal carbon
3? its 6
I’m aware I was just saying a random number, basically saying just don’t go big blast immediately
tidal solstice
that
premade just shares their mdt route and its gucci
then you know when you can hang back
and get it more
hazy lichen
do we run atrophic on vanguard
coarse raven
Hi, can we get set pieces with bonus roll in raid ? Or just the other item ?
lilac stag
do we run atrophic on vanguard
That’s it the entire reason why you are there as a rogue.
frail kindle
man they fixed the bug now i gotta do a whole different opener
slim anchor
Okay. I have a feather now. With feather I have 718 haste. Do I still need to get 800 haste without the trinket or am I good?
lilac stag
You need to get a better trinket.
slim anchor
lol agreed but that’s what I got
lilac stag
every other Sblades wont get both sectechs
Likely better off just getting 800 and running 2 passives
slim anchor
Piss
swift tinsel
We sure do love deepening and breakpoints around here
tribal blade
man they fixed the bug now i gotta do a whole different opener
wait which bug, the 30 energy?
swift tinsel
You just wait a half-second or so less before hitting stuff since you aren’t waiting for 30 energy
Not really that different
tribal blade
yeah doesn't change the opener at all besides just waiting
for a second i thought maybe they fixed other bugs
was a bit excited
frail kindle
yeah i just had my lura opener like super minmaxed
bleak night
for a second i thought maybe they fixed other bugs
lmao idiot
tribal blade
lmao idiot
IKR
frail kindle
now everything is off by like a few seconds
cuz im just sending shit insta on pull without waiting for energy
swift tinsel
I’m gonna play outlaw on Lura so they can’t make me do the game stuff
“Too much to pay attention to make a tank do it”
tribal blade
more chance dh getting buffed tonight than this
ain't that the truth
tribal blade
i hate this entire tier
swift tinsel
I want them to gut devourer and let AR havoc rise from its ashes
tribal blade
melee sucks
swift tinsel
Ye I’m really hanging on by a threat as far as motivation goes lol
bleak night
ngl god himself mustve whispered in my ear to swap to spriest
swift tinsel
Playing outlaw in vault keys to feel anything
tribal blade
i'm seriously considering quitting raiding and just becoming a full casual housing andy
swift tinsel
As much as I should have rolled dk I’m kinda glad I didn’t
But def should have rolled not-rogue
tribal blade
i want to play rogue
bleak night
if i were a dk last week i wouldve crashed out ngl
swift tinsel
Yeah lol
tribal blade
but blizz keeps showing they give 0 fucks about rogue
swift tinsel
I told my guild to fully expect me to not play rogue next season if I end up playing next season at all
swift tinsel
And they said that’s fine they’ll just go without one lmao
tribal blade
i read recently a comment on there saying they don't
swift tinsel
Not even recruit
tribal blade
apparently they only read the PTR forum comments
swift tinsel
Tbf forums are ass
tribal blade
because the class forum threads are full of people bitching and being rude
swift tinsel
Just the wildest takes
swift tinsel
And Mafic/Xaethron
somber sun
because the class forum threads are full of people bitching and being rude
passive aggresive mfs yeah
just a second reddit ngl
swift tinsel
If I were them I’d stay away from forums too
tribal blade
yeah i've been guilty of doing that too, but because i'm so frustrated
swift tinsel
Let the “ Community Council” (lmfao) handle it
Remember that shit
That blizzard wholly abandoned
tribal blade
i'm trying really hard to get blizz to pay attention to the rogue raid buff situation
like arms warrs got all their shit looked into
swift tinsel
I feel like that they definitely know the situation but do not have any real idea how to remedy it
tribal blade
by spamming stuff on the forums and outcrying very loudly
i don't think rogues have the numbers to do it
tribal blade
I feel like that they definitely know the situation but do not have any real ide...
the raid buff thing is so simple
lilac stag
nobody seems to know for sure where blizz actually looks for feedback
They’ve got an AI scraper pulling all the forum feed back.
Top result is: 🏄 🏄♀️ 👍
Clearly everything is fine.
swift tinsel
the raid buff thing is so simple
It should be, yeah
tribal blade
and that would solve like 80% of rogue's problems right now
bleak night
tribal blade
They’ve got an AI scraper pulling all the forum feed back.
Top result is: 🏄 �...
reeeEEEE
swift tinsel
But for some reason it’s some insurmountable task
Or they just don’t care
Such low prio
tribal blade
"midnight has been nonstop Ws from blizz on rogue design"
bleak night
they cant admit rogue raid buff is bad after doubling down on grip
tribal blade
meanwhile rogues getting benched left and right
bleak night
lilac stag
Fixing a class with 15 minutes of dev time a month kinda is impossible.
tribal blade
and not being taken to keys
swift tinsel
Give rogue crit % and crit dmg/heal % raid buff and they’re 1000% unsittable
tribal blade
yeah
swift tinsel
Doesn’t nimble
Doesn’t blade flurry
So they’d have to fix that too
And I feel like it would snowball
“Oh look what else it doesn’t work on”
swift tinsel
Ye
tribal blade
i have a horrible feeling blizz would double down on atrophic
but then it would do nothing
swift tinsel
I prefer crit bc it’s more ubiquitous across all/most specs
swift tinsel
i have a horrible feeling blizz would double down on atrophic
Yeah this would be worst case scenario
IMO
swift tinsel
Idk, anecdotally I feel like I’ve seen more specs avoid or dislike haste
But could be wrong
tribal blade
yeah there are some
swift tinsel
Tanks get parry, healers get more effective heals/have direct crit interactions, dps bigger numbers
swift tinsel
Yeah big picture just please a buff good sirs
swift tinsel
It is a bit funny there’s no crit or haste raid buff
Int, AP, vers, mastery
Move speed from Windwalking
bleak night
bloodlust kinda covers a haste raidbuff
swift tinsel
Yeah
bleak night
but yeah crit is weird
swift tinsel
Which is funny bc crit is just universally good
And SO many specs have crit talents
That give them a direct benefit
somber sun
i have a horrible feeling blizz would double down on atrophic
Just make it applicable to abilities first
Would be a big big jump
Reducing boss's autos damage, what a joke 
bleak night
well it does work on most abilities
bleak night
its just when those abilities are attributed to the environment instead of the boss
that it causes issues
swift tinsel
But sometimes wires get crossed
bleak night
thats why we need to stab the ground
the environment cant keep getting away with this
brisk onyx
I remember that outlaw had a pvp talent cloud increase party mate’s haste
swift tinsel
Restless Crew the goat
swift tinsel
would have been THE most insane ability to hit the game
brisk onyx
Can the clone from coup cleave with nimble?
swift tinsel
yes
frail kindle
honestly even though outlaw probably does more dmg on lura sub is lowkey goated spec
cuz u can actually save pulls on this spec if a crystal gets fucked
and cuz the dmg check isnt tight theres value in playing an easier spec
with burst
frail kindle
yes
i mean
thats probably cope LMAO
idk if a crystal doesnt get gripped or knocked and it sfucked i can run out and send full sectech and shit into it at least but
its probably not doing shit to be honest LOL
loud gyro
where i can see rogue talnets for raids, specially for chimaerus???
frank wolf
only a 15 maisara but 
dusky yacht
only a 15 maisara but <:HOLY:1250893440183570533>
Holy shit
lost rampart
where i can see rogue talnets for raids, specially for chimaerus???
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/46?boss=3306&class=Rogue&spec=Subtlety
Hitting the Show More button will give you from the top 100 parses, but you can also click onto someone's parse, click their name, summary, and you'll see it
frank wolf
3rd is a warlock doing tank damage?
warlock, he dc'ed for a bit
wicked badger
so I finally got enough haste to do the early 2nd shadow dance and my damage in keys has gone up significantly during sb. Is the diff that much? is it a 2nd full secret technique making the difference?
gilded ferry
!aa
wicked joltBOT
Apex talent optimization:
- Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
- Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
If all of the above are true, use cast a Shadowstrike / Shuriken Storm (even if on full cp).
gilded thistle
frail kindle
bro this rogue class man
some fights ur legit unkillable like lura u actually cant die can feint every single mechanic
then other times ur homeless
loud gyro
yoo, do sub rogue still use delayed shadow dance? during shadow blades, for the second secret technique buffed with supercharger combopoints??
frail kindle
use second dance in last 8 seconds of blades
loud gyro
but it doesnt matter the second secret technique without the supercharger combopoint?? im using guidon trinket
dusky yacht
but it doesnt matter the second secret technique without the supercharger combop...
Doesn't matter, in BL it lines up sort of naturally, without BL you just send the second sectec and then wait for it after
loud gyro
aah ok, so i wait for the third shadow dance to send the second sectec
dusky yacht
No
loud gyro
aah i send on the second without supercharger
dusky yacht
Guidon -> Blades -> Sectec Dance -> Second dance at 8 sec left on Blades -> 2nd Sectec ASAP, hold dance until Sectec back up after
azure ember
how is taking premed a dps loss btw?
dusky yacht
There are bugs and it's poorly designed
For me personally it's 0.9% DPS loss, 0.4% from sim and another 0.5% that doesn't show up on sim.
strange chasm
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
azure ember
thats so strange
dusky yacht
It is.
azure ember
the opener without it feels so gross
dusky yacht
It does.
azure ember
!bugs
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet
shrewd lantern
then other times ur homeless
me when i get 2 absorbs and an obelisk on cosmos
frail kindle
Yeah like u go from literally immortal on fights to just GOD PLEASE HELP ME
dusky yacht
In most dungeons I feel like a god, in skyreach I am a li'l bitch
Getting tossed around
Bled
The tornadoes are a psy op
hidden shadow
should i be using black powder all the time on vaelrog and ezzo?
warm marlin
Yeah like u go from literally immortal on fights to just GOD PLEASE HELP ME
cloak not immuning the heal absorb or radiance or soaks on paladins
and feint not working on radiance
and im getting divine stormed for committing the crime of playing melee on a 14 ranged fight
bleak night
shrewd lantern
should i be using black powder all the time on vaelrog and ezzo?
no cast white powder
frail kindle
bro this lura fight is so funny to me for some reason lmfao
like theres literally just glaives that bounce and back forth the entire fight bro LMAO
gusty wharf
Torn between sub or sin to learn for m+/ pvp
ornate lake
Gaymers I am in a tough spot since I've started doing my first 15s.
As sub all my damage is front loaded, and if the pack doesn't die within my blades, i am doing tank damage till my sec tech comes back up. Is this supposed to be normal for packs to survive for 30s?
Should I switch to assa for a flatter damage profile? But I absolutely hate spatter maxing though.
short radish
Gaymers I am in a tough spot since I've started doing my first 15s.
As sub all...
yes
to both
ornate lake
short radish
well
you dont need to play assi
you can still play sub in 15s
and it's fine
you just cast a second set of dance+sectech
ornate lake
My assa has 38% mastery lmaoo not sure if that's playable
plush roost
Thats actually ideal
ornate lake
plush roost
You want a fuck load of crit a good amount of hatse and dump leftovers into mastery
ornate lake
You want a fuck load of crit a good amount of hatse and dump leftovers into mast...
32% crit
ornate lake
Need to farm for crit gear and recraft to C/H i guess
plush roost
Well u can just play sub in keys too
Assa is just better in like 19+
And outlaw is just goated rn
stable maple
is guidon better than puzzle box?
ornate lake
I want to hit 3400 so idk how viable sub is for 17s i guess
plush roost
U can time 17s with anything ngl
ornate lake
And outlaw is just goated rn
Target capped
frail kindle
bro this is crazy
in p3 lura my guy is literally just stopping auto attacking lol
like im wondering why i have no sht stacks
and my character is just floating around not autoing
maiden oar
!bug
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet
maiden oar
if the bug still exists where u dont get flawless from coup without fazed up yeah
its in the sheet but i am gobsmacked if thats actually still in the game
been playing devourer mostly so not sure
empty bobcat
got bis ring yesterday from pit and had to swap some gems to maintain 700 haste now hero box sims 5k over myth feather in ST 😂
dusky yacht
You should sim, but not trust the sims, but listen to the sims, but ignore the sims
Ofc
empty bobcat
lol
serene tapir
I want to hit 3400 so idk how viable sub is for 17s i guess
Ofc it is
warm marlin
if the bug still exists where u dont get flawless from coup without fazed up yea...
ye
but what u gonna do
maiden oar
but what u gonna do
track fazed
just in case
backing up all my cdms before i update my whole ui
and was curious if i still ogtta track it hehe
maiden oar
i have in keys
idk why i track it if im just doing weeklies on rogue rn
but it is what it is
warm marlin
sub in keys is suffering
frail kindle
yeah this lura fight is actually a banger
legit the easiest rogue fight ive ever done i think
legit zero responsibilities full payphone the entire time
vale pine
soo, you mean you want to carry one of the loght thingies?
frail kindle
that would spike my cortisol sorry cant
maiden oar
im doing stuff like this
its so fun to have high cortisol
i shouldve probably just spawned the soaks off the memory game but
i genuinely believed the glaive wouldnt bounce at me like that
maiden oar
erntrids in my guild
frosty is subbing for us until the end of prog bc frosty is kevins friend
frail kindle
ohhhh
maiden oar
and our tank quit mid prog
frail kindle
cuz frosty was fucking help raid lead for us so i was so confuised LMAO
maiden oar
hehe
frail kindle
this fight a 21st man is so op
maiden oar
Grouch purple name
maybe ill be back one day
fossil forge
I hope brah
maiden oar
yeah kevin gets to say watch out for the glaive sometimes
fossil forge
Whos gonna carry the evil boaters
maiden oar
true...
fossil forge
maiden oar
i miss the boaters
fossil forge
short radish
maiden oar
i think if sub was fun to play in raid id 100% come back to rogue next patch but im just really not enjoying it in the alt run idk
sin might be fun njow that implacable tracks and u can play around it
havent tried it post hotfix
outlaw would be fun with more energy maybe
it could be fixed
fossil forge
outlaw is astrofun
fossil forge
Im doing negative Numbers though
maiden oar
yeah i think outlaw has potential
maiden oar
i really like the uh
new deathstalker change
where u can snipe low hp targers w the active
for more darkest nights
that sounds really fun
frail kindle
type shit
maiden oar
idk if ill be a purple man forever or a fotm player forever or if ill return to rogue next patch
but if they make sub fun its rogue next patch
please blizard
alpine wraith
yea you can do that but it is a bit weird
frail kindle
im having fun with cloud cover
just cuz of big shadowstrike numbers
im a simple man
maiden oar
serene tapir
Idk i just despite the Aug comp
maiden oar
im having fun with cloud cover
yeah its definitely an improvement
i just am sad bc less flexibility
and haste breakpoint
it was cool to be flexible in twws3
and i dont like the gymnastics every time i replace an item
but im really happy we have burst again
frail kindle
ya the haste shit is cringe
cant even swap to outlaw cuz i literally dont have enough haste lol
i got cucked by the mythic crit vers ring
and i cant sim gear to my officers
cuz if a piece has haste on it it just completely bricks the sim
short radish
i really like how blizzard saw how much fun every single other spec was having with <stat> breakpoints
and thought you know what, sub rogue needs to deal with that
chrome palm
<@588903099867856907>
forgot i might want a brez but still
fossil forge
Sigma
chrome palm
devo is sit in queue
maiden oar
chrome palm
i cannot find my kitty cat
warm marlin
udk good in that comp too!
maiden oar
is kitty cat fun
does it compare favorably to assassination
i have the name Meowch maybe i gear feral for phys comp 4fun
short radish
is kitty cat fun
arguarbly plays the same way as assass
every 2 minutes you have a shit ton of burst
1min is a bit shorter window of burst
and youre juggling snapshotting bleeds, just a bit more
maiden oar
are u making more decisions off burst
than 5 cp envenom
refresh rupture refresh garrtot
short radish
uhhh
im not a good feral so dont quote me on this
but tigers fury snapshots in the sameway improved garrote does
maiden oar
icic
short radish
so there's some minmaxxy stuff you can do there
warm marlin
from a guild member whos group is trying to play phys comp
maiden oar
ok i will make meowch powerful
warm marlin
"this shit sucks im just permanently oom and waiting while i auto attack on 20 mobs"
maiden oar
oh
short radish
LOL
short radish
i mean t hat's also just assi gameplay 
i guess assass acutally isn't that bad with more targets
short radish
assass multi target = more energy
feral multi target = more bite (idk what the skill is, basically envenom)
maiden oar
ic
short radish
but youre kinda waiting for procs
maiden oar
ok worth a try
short radish
it's a bit rare to get unlucky but it does happen
maiden oar
ty fimb
maiden oar
NO
frail kindle
i had way more fun as bear
like bear you open 800k first pack of the dungeon
then afk rest of it
warm marlin
ye supposedly a bit literally just waiting for things to proc while you chill with a beer in hand autoing
put up dots and play the waiting game
short radish
it's basically "every time your rupture ticks damage you have a chance to get a proc to do a free envenom"
except your ruptures also only last 12 seconds
frail kindle
dont get me wrong feral absolutely cranks
that shit can do nuclear damage
but its realy boring
and st is pretty mid
in key build
in raid it also cranks st
short radish
no wukkas
short radish
feral is boring as FUCK
i do agree though. i did get bored of it very quickly
i wanted to enjoy it
but i just didn't
felt like a worse assass
warm marlin
im having fun on udk!
frail kindle
yeah the burst is fun for like the first 2 seconds
aoe feral frenzy and hope convoke procs another one
but outside of that its just so boring
maiden oar
im having fun on udk!
i leveled that guy and dropped it bc i felt like the decisions i made didnt really matter is that just a noob impression
short radish
actually yeah
feral burst buttons are funner to press than assi
but overall gameplay is not as fun
warm marlin
i leveled that guy and dropped it bc i felt like the decisions i made didnt real...
uhh its not the hardest spec
but not overcapping resources is a bit hard in big aoe
short radish
im having fun on udk!
ngl after all the watching of uhdk play 80% of their rotation from ranged
frail kindle
yeah i press kingsbane and every time i press it i wished it did more damage
maiden oar
ah ok
short radish
i kinda want to play one as well
warm marlin
also udk just doesnt play the game normally
maiden oar
i do like making a bunch of guys on the screenc
frail kindle
but the actual gameplay of assa is so much more fun than feral regardless
maiden oar
and saying go my mignon
warm marlin
you have dk utility and you are a ranged spec
maiden oar
yea
frail kindle
yeah unholy is nuts
short radish
you have dk utility and you are a ranged spec
they found a way to make DKs even stronger.
warm marlin
you know last boss windrunner
frail kindle
unkillable king running around the boss on its horse
short radish
and it's rather impressive
warm marlin
ams is up for every ring
frail kindle
doing all of its damage from ranged
short radish
unkillable king running around the boss on its horse
bro chimerus is acutally insane
maiden oar
wtf
short radish
just delete the fucking class
maiden oar
dk is too evil
frail kindle
ive been bitching about unholy for a while
steel wyvern
i mean idk its best st and best aoe
warm marlin
2m20s fight 
warm marlin
(the literal only damage i took was the on pull burst)
frail kindle
you not only take no damage
short radish
the big bungus
warm marlin
ye
maiden oar
hehe
warm marlin
ams immunes a ridiculous amount of mechanics
frail kindle
its balanced by being extremely boring to play though
short radish
a dk will just live right next to me
my mate (does title shit) has a clip of one of their p*sh keys where the tank dies and the DK is just tanking the boss for 2 minutes
warm marlin
i just wish you still built haste
short radish
it's acutally insane
warm marlin
dk being a 1.5s gcd spec and not going haste
short radish
like the health is still ping ponging down to 20% every second or 2
but the fact they just live
is dumb
warm marlin
my mate (does title shit) has a clip of one of their p*sh keys where the tank di...
in tww1 our fdk would taunt tankbusters sometimes to give our ppal a break
on bosses too
short radish
in tww1 our fdk would taunt tankbusters sometimes to give our ppal a break
did you have a fdk tanking the stonecore bosses as well
warm marlin
the one i really remember was the big dude in siege of boralus
maiden oar
my mate (does title shit) has a clip of one of their p*sh keys where the tank di...
i forget if ive asked u this but is the term "doer" (as a negative word to describe m+ players) an oce invention
warm marlin
our tank was dead for like 15s
short radish
i forget if ive asked u this but is the term "doer" (as a negative word to descr...
is a doer (hard r) not used in NA?
maiden oar
no
short radish
acutally it's more of a hard D
maiden oar
ive only heard oce people say it
short radish
must be an OCE thing
frail kindle
i just be mfing doin shit yfm?
tribal blade
i'm a brain off doer
maiden oar
gm
frail kindle
gm
maiden oar
i just be mfing doin shit yfm?
ikwym
tribal blade
good afternoon
warm marlin
its balanced by being extremely boring to play though
i like it in mass aoe surely not biased
maiden oar
short radish
same as clankers
maiden oar
australia seems so cool i should come voer there sometime
frail kindle
bro in my guild calling someone a key pusher is basically a slur LMAO
maiden oar
i was apathetic about keys but i want something to put effort into post prog
so iwill learn to love them
short aurora
maiden oar
short radish
bro in my guild calling someone a key pusher is basically a slur LMAO
yeah i guess we call them doers more than p*shers here
maiden oar
have fun enjoying how little you'll bring to keys
im probably devourer
unless i make physical comp friends
tribal blade
im probably devourer
oh nvm
tribal blade
devourer would still be better in melee comp
vale osprey
bro in my guild calling someone a key pusher is basically a slur LMAO
God bless, mythc pls is BAD
warm marlin
im probably devourer
its looking quite likely we do some pushing this season
maiden oar
maiden oar
no need for lizard
well
on high enough keys does no aug stone for the skyreach dude who throws u off the edge become a problem
for like udk
short radish
as ddh demo udk
i need to find a warlock to explain how demo works to me. i fucking hate that your damage breakdown is just "RANDOM DEMON SPELL BULLSHIT"
maiden oar
or can u just kill the add still
warm marlin
on high enough keys does no aug stone for the skyreach dude who throws u off the...
they are fixing this pretty sure
short radish
so i can't read through and acutally understand wtf im doing right/wrong
maiden oar
oh ok
vale osprey
God bless, myth*c pl*s is BAD
Wait, adding as asterisk in-between to make it seem like mythic plus is a swear word in discord just puts it in italics ffs
warm marlin
im a little worried about no bleed dispel and aug is just aug
short radish
Wait, adding as asterisk in-between to make it seem like mythic plus is a swear ...
you added 2 *
warm marlin
but im sure its fine
short radish
just do one *
warm marlin
i need to find a warlock to explain how demo works to me. i fucking hate that yo...
ye idk
its a bit hard with udk too kinda
vale osprey
you added 2 *
Oh true I did one in each word
warm marlin
need log and look at spell casts as u saw
short radish
yah
warm marlin
my details log on udk has 47 difference instances of damage btw
short radish
thanks again for that btw
maiden oar
i like how the logs are bugged on devourer
short radish
haven't done a key with them yet but they were liek "oooohh yeah that all makes sense. time to hit dummy"
maiden oar
so the button with the most decision making around it doesnt show up in casts
wahoo!!
warm marlin
i need to find a warlock to explain how demo works to me. i fucking hate that yo...
what is this abomination bro
maiden oar
hehe
short radish
at least there's no akaaris soul
warm marlin
i am on outlaw so i am safe
outer orchid
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
warm marlin
but i will use this
i redo my entire ui after raid on thursday
i cannot take arc anymore
ayjie cdm and wa here we come
hollow spear
Yeah heard good things about ayjie