subtlety

[stoic anchor]

The raid in 2 days

[serene notch]

Please give me a bug that covers the entire raid

[swift tinsel]

it'll probs be downplayed graphically like how arcane orb is barely visible for anyone besides the mage

if they do anything

[serene notch]

Boringgggg

[astral mountain]

After patch drops, what spec is gonna be doing best for ST raid? Is it still looking like sin?

[void ocean]

talkin bout arcane mages, classic sub rogue discussion 😄

[chrome palm]

i used the distract version in raid and noone else saw it :(

[lucid jackal]

Sin was never really 'the best st for raid"

But the best st will be either sub or otl based on if sub gets a good kill timer a lot

[tepid trellis]

assa is just the one spec that only does that while sub plays around add spawns to make bosses easier to kill

[astral mountain]

I was just curious, saw some sims showing sin doing well for solely st in raid. Personally I’ve been playing ds sub rn.

[swift tinsel]

that's with them purely tunneling boss

[chrome palm]

sample size of ds sub in raid is very low but it seems the same or better than assa imo

[lucid jackal]

Assa is "better on wcl boss damage stats page" but isn't actually "more st"

[swift tinsel]

yo what if we drop last apex talent point

for clone procs on strike always

[lucid jackal]

All 3 rogue specs do similar st rn. But post patch sub and outlaw get a lot better

[chrome palm]

like assa is just so dogshit noone bothers swapping to adds and so they have high boss uptime

[swift tinsel]

and take PV

[chrome palm]

assa can stay in the gutter 🙏

[astral mountain]

Is DS still gonna be preforming better for raid after patch? Idk how much the cloud is gonna effect things

[chrome palm]

dont think so

[lucid jackal]

Deathstalker sub is just larp shit

[chrome palm]

its no larp

[lucid jackal]

Sub is getting a 5% buff on reset and outlaw is getting like a 13%

[void ocean]

so its outlaw gaming now

[chrome palm]

these are the top boss damage logs for fks

this was my only kill on ds boss dam

[edgy imp]

where does it say this? i wanna reasd

[thin sinew]

If sub and assa were bottom two and outlaw top i'd still never play outlaw

[astral mountain]

Someone told me that gaze trinket is so good that it is still better to keep a champion version of it over a different hero or myth trinket

Same with light company

Not sure if the effects on them are THAT good to justify that or not

[swift tinsel]

probs depends on what other trinkets you have

guidon is quite good

same with gaze

[thin sinew]

Guidon i can see gaze i can't

[olive canyon]

guidon i think for sure, but a fully upgrade renoun trinket is pretty good

[vagrant fossil]

It isn't entirely wrong. Guidon gives you 2nd sectec with supercharge + shadow blades. Gaze gives an unreal amount of agility

10 stacks is not unusual and at 263 that's 26 agi per, 260 agi + 102 mastery

[astral mountain]

Currently im running champ Guidon and just a hero delve equip trink. But I have a champ gaze I could use

I tried simming it but I think I’m messing it up 😂

[vagrant fossil]

I would expect the champ gaze to surpass the hero delve trinket

Like gaze gives super good stats and quite often gives more agi than any other trinket

[astral mountain]

So it’s a champ 6/6 gaze vs a hero Void-Reaper's Libram 6/6

[edgy imp]

have yall ever used vessel of tortued souls trinket ? if u actually get orbs the agility bonus can stack and they last 1 minute

[vagrant fossil]

I would bet that the gaze absolutely clears the libram on DPS

[vagrant fossil]

Not that good. Collecting the orbs is bad since they can be hidden under mechanics

It is a bit simbait

[sullen hare]

On paper it's competitive. I don't like the fact it requires literal perfect play to be competitive with a trinket you get for free from voidstorm

I used saptor for a while but my stealth was constantly breaking so I swapped off that ASAP

[gentle temple]

Do we have any sims for .5 to see the gear/stats we should aim for?

[edgy imp]

for patchwork my best combo is puzzlebox and saptors paw https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9gB6xtTFdJBUZQsqWWbmiY

[edgy imp]

what are u using instead now\

[shrewd lantern]

generally speaking the renown trinket is the best until gaze or plume

[marble sail]

!ss

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sullen hare]

Guidon and alnseer like everyone else

https://tenor.com/view/buzz-lightyear-meme-buzz-year-copy-meme-gif-4668439001950303425

[fossil forge]

https://x.com/grimoire43/status/2046085204721201436?s=46&t=EulfrmFj9sMYIdpdbSxfSw

@﹏@ (@grimoire43)

when the raid so ass u gotta cry for help

▶ Play video

X · Apr 20, 2026, 4:35 AM

My reaction soon

[lucid jackal]

Me except the raid is good

[timid rose]

for raid right? guidon doesn't seem to be simming well for me in DSlice

[sullen hare]

I use it for both honestly

Fuck the entire concept of puzzle box

[timid rose]

well, yeah i agree with you there

[sullen hare]

I play a 1.5 min class I want a1.5 min trinket even if not purely optimal

[fossil forge]

Careful with the puzzle 🅱️ slander

[timid rose]

it's just that my current double passives seem to sim higher than guidon for aoe

[stuck arrow]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sullen hare]

All my homies hate puzzy b

[fossil forge]

Puzzy b goes dummy hard in m+

[timid rose]

nothing feels worse than standing for 2 seconds to channel, then having to interrupt your channel so you don't get clipped by mechanics only to have to start it all over again

[fossil forge]

besides the casting part

[stuck arrow]

Wait is cloud cover like legit a 15% buff? Holy shit.

[timid rose]

just because it makes numbers big doesn't mean it's not a trash trinket by design 😄

[sullen hare]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923898501529600/1495104342498218227/puzzle_box.mp4?ex=69e7022c&is=69e5b0ac&hm=6820ea04c7ed82f2ef83b7cc391cddfd293b536246c28c2b5da88550cdb140ef&

[sullen hare]

Well yeah it's the cast bar I hate if it was just a 2 minute mastery boost I would use it

[fossil forge]

Reject haste commit padding crimes

[grizzled sphinx]

numbing poison better than atrophic in st and m+?

[mortal arch]

in raid you're basically always atrophic unless you have another rogue that's already running it, and maybe chimaerus if your raid is really struggling with the fear casts

[small vortex]

yall think sub is the play for raid progression/boss dmg (other than sin on maybe dragons/paladins) after reset?

[grizzled sphinx]

thnx bro

[mortal arch]

in m+ it's a bigger toss-up, I generally go numbing until high key levels when you're really worried about one-shotty damage intake since numbing helps with kicks and also lowers tank damage (which IMO is a bigger source of bricked keys in the mid range)

[lucid jackal]

Ppl misunderstand what the boss damage stat on WCL actually says

[stuck arrow]

I mean 13% is pretty crazy.

[lucid jackal]

SIn wasn't like, insanely better on ST

EIther way getting a 6% ST buff is a lot

[small vortex]

oh yeah i dont care about parsing but sitting boss sin felt like it did slightly more than sub

[south pelican]

What is sln

[small vortex]

just thinking the .5 sub stuff looks pretty big overall

[lucid jackal]

It is

[wicked urchin]

boss damage in this case = i dont leave the boss for anything therefore my boss damage is higher

[limber folio]

!sectec

guh

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[limber folio]

there we go

[stoic anchor]

What specs also bring - attack speed? Frost Dks , Warriors and what else? What's the entire list?

[warm marlin]

outlaw season buddy

year of the pirate

[small vortex]

eh...

i havent tried outlaw yet

[hollow plinth]

embrace the law

short arm of the law

[warm marlin]

if we consider dragons the first real boss, after reset it's probably sub (dragon), assa (paladin), sub (alleria), sub (beloren), lura unclear

assuming you are an outlaw nonbeliever

lura depends on your timings

[lucid jackal]

Mentions outlaw on no bosses

Try not to smile challenge

[warm marlin]

he said he wasnt an outlaw player

[keen dome]

it's an outlaw season, don'thca know

[ripe flame]

tbf he did say if you are an outlaw non believer

[small vortex]

well i could play outlaw

[warm marlin]

5 messages up i said year of the pirate bud

[small vortex]

but i have hero fist weapon and havent tried it so

[keen dome]

I pirated your sentiment

[warm marlin]

if you include outlaw it's probably law (dragons), law (paladins), sub (alleria), sub (beloren), law (lura)

[north garnet]

I think Sub will have its moments. Burst is gonna be bigger. Tho Law overall looks more enticing

[warm marlin]

i dont know how bad the downtime is for law timings on alleria though

maybe theres a case

[lucid jackal]

p bad

[warm marlin]

if you aren't an outlaw player already you are probably better off playing sub unless you have time to get some practice in

[small vortex]

ill probably just stick sub

we're on paladins wall rn anyway

ty for the response tho

[ripe flame]

haven't played outlaw since bfa surely its not that bad

[vital ocean]

not rogue related

has anyone tried this in mythic? we are 11 people and its not gaining %

[spiral needle]

Awkward timing for it to suddenly become great when it's not a craft week and weapon can be supercharged and you don't have one

[warm marlin]

idk people said it was similar to bfa

ur prob fine

its far far easier than the df-tww version

[half comet]

can i relink a log in here or does typing the command just open a new one

[gentle temple]

We changing our rotation with the rotten?

[warm marlin]

sim bug fixed soon

backstab bad

[north garnet]

RtB WA begs to differ

[spice matrix]

We going back to premed?

[north garnet]

[mortal arch]

attack speed in particular? insidious chill from DK and curse of weakness from warlock, but they do stack with each other

[spice matrix]

Only way this would be true is if I returned to my beloved HO

[warm marlin]

wa couldnt handle all the feelcraft outlaw gaming

[spice matrix]

Fuck I still have the icon.. once a HO always a HO

[lilac stag]

I’m waiting for the crash out having to play tricky law.

[vale pine]

embrace the smoke

[hollow plinth]

we smokers

[raw wadi]

did someone check beloren puzzlebox vs guidon?

[warm marlin]

puzzle good

[vale pine]

both seem close, but puzzle is strong

[spice matrix]

Who has the Killing Spree gif with the rogue falling off the boat on Dawnbreaker

[raw wadi]

got mythiy guidon vs hc puzzlebox... but i was like "egg phases are 3 min gapped"

[ripe flame]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/741275386188529734/1372656620034592869/3882ade1b2e0cab5893c24ec180af244.gif

I have that one

[raw wadi]

not sure what happens for me but i have fluctuating egg phases... between 177k and 230k (doing the same all the time)

[raw wadi]

Sprocketmonger... ❤️ was so close to burnout with transmitter trinket.

[karmic harbor]

anyone got a good sub rogue video for crown mythic i can watch?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/destiny-gif-21994457

[deft oar]

watch the controller guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEuvz3ooSH4

[stoic anchor]

Outlaw is 10 times better than assa gameplay wise. It's so satisfying and cool. When it comes to assa I'm the newly released darth Maul fueled by hatred

xd, no but jokes aside i think gameplay wise it's outlaw>=sub>> assa

[warm marlin]

i started as an outlaw otp but generally I like sub a little more in raid and outlaw a lot more in keys

and assa is icky

[stoic anchor]

I have beef with assa because it's the loved child of blizzard. When sub it's the unloved child

[spice matrix]

This isn’t it but this is funny as hell

[shrewd lantern]

sub has been good since SL

what is blud yapping about

[stoic anchor]

As it should be. S1 tww sub was meh in keys and good in raid

[shrewd lantern]

was meh in keys all of tww

[karmic harbor]

sub is good during rwf, then usually assa gets buffs to become the best spec

not cool!

[stoic anchor]

Aha! So that's not yap xd

[shrewd lantern]

well m+ is a minigame

[stoic anchor]

This tbh. 100% correct

[shrewd lantern]

so still is

[spiral needle]

more accurate to say sub "falls off" because adds start dying too fast for it to get its burst in as a season goes on

[small sleet]

Everyone knows raid is the minigame that gears you for the real game of m+

[shrewd lantern]

i mean if you don't get title

you're wasting your time doing keys

idk

[small sleet]

Keys are fun

[karmic harbor]

who would do something for fun

what do you mean wasting time lmfao

[shrewd lantern]

pugging m+

is same energy as people who solo queue league

[small sleet]

Also if you have a coordinated group title is a pretty achievable goal no matter your spec

[shrewd lantern]

its more fun with a group

since its a group goal

[stoic anchor]

I solo q dota and i'm 6400 mmr. Come at me bro. U won't bro

[karmic harbor]

ok maybe i just finished soloqing to diamond

[small sleet]

Definitely agree

[karmic harbor]

what's wrong with that

[shrewd lantern]

also you get to meme when something goes wrong with a sketchy pull

[stoic anchor]

I'm immortal in dota which is challenger in league ask me anything xd

[shrewd lantern]

pretty sure more people solo dota

not as comparable

[stoic anchor]

They do

[karmic harbor]

soloq > flex

all day

[stuck arrow]

What's the play on bonus rolls? Just all in on chim?

[shrewd lantern]

probably depends on your needs

[karmic harbor]

https://tenor.com/view/pondering-the-orb-gif-13211537702542941358

the ball says yes

[shrewd lantern]

wow's model just doesnt work well with soloqueueing

[stoic anchor]

Last week mythic gideon dropped and it went to tank cause nobody else wanted it

[surreal orbit]

Hola

[karmic harbor]

soloqing is fine

if you're a meta class

[shrewd lantern]

even then

[dry flame]

I know tanks are rare... but holy, can tanks stop throwing keys? my key is resi, but jesus

[shrewd lantern]

considering people fail at basic mechanics like an interrupt

[karmic harbor]

ok

ive literally just been pugging to 17s

and most keys are just 1 shots

doesnt really seem that bad

if i had more time id probably be all 18s by now at least

[shrewd lantern]

is 17 even title range rn

[small sleet]

No

[shrewd lantern]

exactly

[karmic harbor]

yeah... the people above 17 are probably better?

this everyone i play with is bad isnt really true

[shrewd lantern]

aug players debatable.....

[karmic harbor]

above a certain level

[shrewd lantern]

though i'd rather stab my eye with a rusty spoon then spend hours pressing ss bp

even assa is more fun in keys rn

doomed state

[karmic harbor]

dw, i play assa in keys

infinitely more fun

[dry flame]

assa is quite fun in keys, im enjoying it

[warm marlin]

year of the pirate

[karmic harbor]

if i had a good main hand for it i'd try outlaw

[shrewd lantern]

idk i play devo and finish an eradicate , and the lineup feels so nice

meanwhile rogue is like

[small sleet]

Sometimes you get to press shadow dance

[shrewd lantern]

"here let me repeatedly hit things with a wet pool noodle"

20x

[warm marlin]

i really wish fdk was the meta dk spec

i love fdk

unholy stinks

[shrewd lantern]

like sub feels 0 fun rn to me outside of sectech/coup globals

rest of the spec is just sleeper

[small sleet]

I just take a small nap in between shadow blades

[shrewd lantern]

even blades doesnt feel great

[swift tinsel]

fdk = Fun Death Knight

[shrewd lantern]

outside of those 2 globals

[small sleet]

I like shadow blades still. It doesn’t feel as fun as in tww but I still enjoy it

[swift tinsel]

unholy gets so many Sudden Doom procs you never feel like you make meaningful choices

[shrewd lantern]

yet people be like

"why assa dont have more energy"

yeah i need a gorillion useless globals

that hit like noodles

[hollow plinth]

https://tenor.com/view/orb-spheal-pondering-my-orb-pokemon-pondering-gif-24206579

[swift tinsel]

sin least fun spec in game

[shrewd lantern]

i miss crackshot uuh

already

[swift tinsel]

and even less fun in keys

[shrewd lantern]

midnight version is alot less fun

[swift tinsel]

no no no crackshot stays in the dirt

[karmic harbor]

loser

[swift tinsel]

with rupture

[karmic harbor]

sin is SO FUN

CT change is such good qol

[swift tinsel]

yeah as soon as you have more than 5 mobs in a pull its ass butt and shit

[karmic harbor]

and the burst on some boss fights is rly nice esp with execute

[shrewd lantern]

funniest SD moment was i ganked some warrior in open world

[swift tinsel]

also have fun with your apex that does nothing for most of the time

[shrewd lantern]

he tries to leap into npx

dies mid leap animation to SD

[swift tinsel]

and gives zero reward whatsoever if you have energy and its capped

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk why people think slamming mut env chains is fun

every gcd

[karmic harbor]

err just cast envenom again

[shrewd lantern]

i like pooling

just green flavored outlaw

at that point

[swift tinsel]

"apex does nothing for most of the time" yeah envenom again sure

fixes that

shit ass mechanic

[karmic harbor]

i like it

can use it when you need it

[lilac stag]

I enjoy the vibe of sub. Give me one more ability to work into cd rotation every 45 seconds or so and me very happy.

[karmic harbor]

i dont even think about sub apex

[swift tinsel]

kb stab spree the only part of sin apex worth considering

[small sleet]

Why think about what your next global is when it could be either shuriken storm or black powder every time if you’d just play the right spec

[shrewd lantern]

then you press blades and its like

"your ss bp spam does more"

[karmic harbor]

75% uptime for me in keys

[shrewd lantern]

[swift tinsel]

meanwhile you can sit at max implacable stacks and get zero reward

[lilac stag]

At a certain point, even with TWW you just stop thinking when you have enough miles on a spec

[small sleet]

It’s like that daniel but cooler meme

Ss bp spam. And shadow blades is ss bp spam but cooler

[warm marlin]

not with tww outlaw

[shrewd lantern]

somehow i think playing alot of crackshot just made me respond to shadowcraft refunds

without any visual

or wa

[lilac stag]

That wasn’t a spec, it was an abomination

[warm marlin]

[swift tinsel]

that's the stacking buff not the energy regen

[shrewd lantern]

amirdrassil outlaw was cool

then they added a mandatory haste tax

wait why do i feel like im getting a repeat....

with sub

[north garnet]

I loved Df outlaw

[lilac stag]

Not at 35% haste needed or whatever it was.

[shrewd lantern]

and tww s1 outlaw was basically df with a haste tax

besides you cant ar prepull or your coin hit the boss

20%

[hollow plinth]

xiani come back to the law ..

[shrewd lantern]

so technically what sub needs rn

[swift tinsel]

I might actually do more law keys after getting locked into one last night

was checking talents pre-key and they sent without timer lol

[north garnet]

Give us long arms BACK

[shrewd lantern]

actually the best was df prepatch

and yes im aware it was pants on head broken

[warm marlin]

im coming home solo

[swift tinsel]

this just means bigger area of denial circles

[north garnet]

give it back only to outlaw

:P

[swift tinsel]

you have a gun

shoot harder

[north garnet]

YARRR

[shrewd lantern]

the only thing i didnt understand

was why sub and assa long arm meant

360 long arm

[half comet]

!log

[swift tinsel]

ngl tho circling around with MF Ult KS is fun

pew pew pew pew bad damage pew pew

[half comet]

if anyone wnats to take a look and let me know what htey find id appreciate it

[lilac stag]

See you back here a week from Tuesday.

[warm marlin]

potentially so

[shrewd lantern]

how're you gonna play orc

as pirate

[warm marlin]

racechange after beloren

it is giga there

[karmic harbor]

fair, it's like 17% uptime with just the energy regen buff

[shrewd lantern]

i think i just had it macroed to AR

[swift tinsel]

huge value

wow

[shrewd lantern]

the few times i was orc

[karmic harbor]

sometimes i am spamming evenom for ~30s but a lot of the time it's 10s or less it's fully stacked

[warm marlin]

once belo dies i voidcore upgrade and crest upgrade my saladman weapon, racechange dwarf

[swift tinsel]

I liked old IC better in keys

[warm marlin]

start blasting

[swift tinsel]

ct nice for raid

but ass for any large pull

[stuck arrow]

With cloud cover is dwarf 100% best race then?

[shrewd lantern]

prob still panda for sub

[lilac stag]

velf still bis

[shrewd lantern]

velf in theory if you get entropic on your sb

is very good

[lilac stag]

you get mog discounts and irritate the silvermoon guards.

[shrewd lantern]

they just emote you

all the time

🤣

[lilac stag]

I’ll likely vault outlaw this week since it won’t mater. It’s either trinkets or a cloak/bracers. lol

imagine if it stays it’s best option for paladins

which is where we should hopefully be Thursday

[stoic anchor]

With more of our damage being in sb window orc got buffed, EZ FOR MY ORC BOYS

2 ez man why so ez for orcs

[sullen hare]

Looksmaxxing and guardmogging

[thorny ridge]

!FUU

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush trout]

guys could u clear smth for me pls? with the new changes, i understand that in st is ST BT BT and than burst macro, but what opener do we have in aoe if we cant restealth

[vale pine]

storm-(trinket)-cooldowns

[shrewd lantern]

maghar better if anything

maybe not first season

[stoic anchor]

Why?

[shrewd lantern]

its been historically better

also you can only racial every other cd set

[sharp peak]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[surreal orbit]

Do we always shadow dance on CD (holding up to 10 seconds to align with Shadow Blades)

[pastel geyser]

are we getting dpsmogged by outlaw after the patch in m+

[warm marlin]

its a bit mid rn

maybe s2

depends on if you end up going for another haste breakpoint

if maghar rolls haste its quite doomed

[hazy breach]

No, with secret technique

[mighty zephyr]

guidon or puzzle box on beloren? myth guidon vs hc box

[lilac stag]

both.

[warm marlin]

box or both

prob box

[lilac stag]

Insert BingusTech ™

[pastel geyser]

gloombladetech

[surreal orbit]

Hold up to 10 to align with Secret Tech, Blades on CD but only during Shadow Dance*

[lilac stag]

Typically You shouldn’t be that far misaligned with ST

[slender kraken]

So from wednesday we want run crit flask ?

[surreal orbit]

making sure I fully understand the best possible burst windows

[lilac stag]

!guidon

[wicked jolt]

Trickster Shadow Blades Optimization:
During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back. This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[surreal orbit]

Is there a hard cap on combo points or do super charged points continue to scale beyond 7

Is using a finisher at 7 with a supercharged point making it effectively 9 points

[lucid jackal]

Correct

[warm marlin]

makes it 10 because you play the talent that makes them +3

[surreal orbit]

ah yeah right

[inland sail]

So is the DPS difference in Single Target for Sub in the sim sheet because of the Cloud Cover rework?

[stoic anchor]

6-7%. SIX SEVEN

[surreal orbit]

I saw some vids where rogues were doing Shadowstrike back to back, what condition is that falling under?

[lilac stag]

@surreal orbit does that answer your question?

!apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[surreal orbit]

definitely helps, Im brand new to rogue so trying to take it all in an make sure I understand it before I trap myself in a bad habit

ty

[lilac stag]

No worries mate. Sometimes is a challenge just to ask the right question.

trying to make sure it’s what you were needing

[surreal orbit]

appreciated

[olive canyon]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

12.0.5 Quick Pin about Bonus rolls and Upgrades:

Gear upgrades (You can only upgrade weapons and trinkets)
The priority goes as follows:
MAIN HAND Weapon > Trinkets > Offhand Weapon
If you don't have a Mythic-level weapon, consider using the upgrade on your crafted weapon or bonus rolls to get one.
simulation:

• > Item upgrade gain < (click on the specific item to see the damage gain on the "subtlety" profile)
• > Weapon item level comparison< (Shows the difference between crafted and mythic item level weapon in the mainhand slot)

Bonus Rolls:
Raid:

• Light Company Guidon - Highest impact Trinket (First boss Voidspire)
• Gaze - Best Passive Trinket (Chimeras)
• Neck - Minor upgrade but contested item. (Alleria)
  Mythic+
• Nexus Point / AA / Skyreach / Pit - All offer a low amount of bad items, and can be a good option when trying to increase your item level (AA also has Puzzle box).
  NOTE: The best use of your bonus roll is highly dependent on the items you already have; the above are only suggestions. Mythic+ items start at lower upgrade ranks but offer more loot pieces.

[low geyser]

iz this after wensdey buff

[sonic raven]

We getting buffs tomorrow?

[vale pine]

yes

6% buff

[sonic raven]

Will it help on Lightbringer/cleave?

[finite hedge]

Argatas Academy

[vale pine]

haha

moment

[finite hedge]

lol

[vale pine]

fixed

[low geyser]

dmg is almost same across specs but high burst on sub will make difference

[vale pine]

the patch increases our burst damage during major cooldowns quite noticable

[jade oasis]

im so excited

[vale pine]

and we get some qol changes

so win win

[low geyser]

jea i think that sub will best spec

[jade oasis]

is crit going to be higher value now?

[vale pine]

only 2 downsides are:

• we backstab in the opener
• we switch flasks to crit (might have mastery flasks banked)

[finite hedge]

yes

[jade oasis]

me staring at my 250 mastery flasks in inventory

[low geyser]

basic rotation with backstab

?

[vale pine]

opener is the same

just strike

but then

backstab to 7

and continue as usual with cooldowns

[jade oasis]

bc no premed 🥹

[vale pine]

yep

talents change away from premed

and we also take rotten

[fading saffron]

is the plan to just drop mastery though in favor to crit? but kepe the 700~ haste with Guidon?

[dry flame]

For a second i thought we're backstabing for Macabre xD

muscle memory

[low geyser]

min max mastery -crit?

[jade oasis]

bro i knew my 850 crit with no flask was going to be good

[steel zinc]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[finite hedge]

Is planned execution multiplicative with surprising strikes? Is that what makes it better than warning signs?

[fiery fog]

is box the play for beloren?

[ornate heron]

is there a way to see in warcraft logs what stat was proc'd when you used potion of recklessness?

[agile kernel]

is the 6% from the hero change and ilvl changes from upgrades, or is it 6% ontop of what the ilvl upgrades on the old talents would have been?

[finite hedge]

ilvl not included

[low geyser]

i have crit 940 haste 700 and mastry 600 is that ok this is without flask

[agile kernel]

thx

[lilac stag]

just hero and talents

[dense geode]

when you say in opener are you just refering to the first GCD of the fight or in dance?

[fading saffron]

is the APL for sims updated? or best to wait till tomorrow to sim/make changed?

[low geyser]

and why is shadowstrike so uimportant now on prepull

[thin sinew]

?

[dry flame]

are sims updated for tomorrow's patch btw?

Probably not i guess

[agile kernel]

ST is

[broken saffron]

Has anyone here done +16s?

[finite hedge]

yep

[dry flame]

strange with new talents my sim dropped hard and is about 5k less than Assa

[broken saffron]

Not a problem usually? Like you can pump? Never played high keys before. starting to like it.

[finite hedge]

you have to enable ptr mode with expert sim mdoe

[low geyser]

in sims i always get better results with finality than the first dance

[finite hedge]

16s are fine yeah. Beyond that you will have to start dropping cheat death for elusiveness or you will die to non feintable damage

the problem is getting invited if you arent running your own key

[void ocean]

i dead-ass tho our first hit will be backstab

[thin sinew]

no

shadowstrike then backstab to 7cp

[void ocean]

yea, figured in the next few lines

[broken saffron]

Hm. Should be able to do it with 276 ilvl? For some reason I can't +3 a 10. I don't know what I'm doing wrong

[low geyser]

why this is so important shadowstrike then backstab to 7cp then shuriken storm

[hazy breach]

What

[nocturne tendon]

[hazy breach]

You want 7 cps when you use secret technique

[plush roost]

Hes simply cooking so far ahead

[thin sinew]

curious where shuriken storm come from.
but also secret technique at 2cp is the biggest grief lol

[plush roost]

We dont even know yet

[obsidian crag]

im surprisingly getting easily invited for 15s (as sub, i dont play sin)

[plush roost]

Shuriken storm to prep coldblood into sec tec hes the messiah!

[obsidian crag]

"easily"

[finite hedge]

Yeah that's enough to get far beyond 10s. I doubt you will get invited to 16s at 276 as a rogue though.

[plush roost]

Yeee anyone can be 279 minimum rn

If they do even the slightest amount of raid/taken myth out of vaukt

[broken saffron]

Yeah, it will have to be my own keys. A friend told me ppl basically only invite Unholy, demo and dev dh.

[broken saffron]

But is there a way to know if my numbers are alright? For example on spire, I'm at 110k dmg

[plush roost]

That is low

[finite hedge]

Hard to gauge based on only a number without knowing pulls, deaths, wipes, etc. But yeah that seems low

[olive canyon]

lots of variables to dungeon dps but i think in pugs just aim for like 140k if you have high 270s

the higher you go the bigger the pulls and you sort of want to be around 180-200 in pugs.

[plush roost]

Note the ilvl

[broken saffron]

I see. Yeah that's good to know. Something to work towards. perhaps I'm missing something about the combo or something, or the timings

[plush roost]

Routing is important but 110k is very llw

[finite hedge]

Also logs are lower than details normally since details doesnt handle downtime

[jade oasis]

idk i personally dont play without shaman buff

[olive canyon]

For sure, just giving him a target to aim for

[warm marlin]

you can log it and look at the key% number as an approximation for how you did relative to much people on the same spec and key level are doing, but raid buffs route etc. affect it a lot

[broken saffron]

oh damn.. what is the site?

[olive canyon]

a big thing is, just follow good cooldown cadence regardless of pulls almost in pugs

meaning every other pack you are going all in, dont hold cd's for the perfect big pull

[plush roost]

Just warcraft logs

[olive canyon]

But assassination on like 14/15 + starts to feel good

[broken saffron]

I usually don't hold them yeah! But in terms of passives, is there any important ones to keep in mind? I just pump away

[olive canyon]

sorry what do you mean by passives?

As sub dungeon rotation is fairly static - approach pull (mark and focus if you do that), open on the highest HP target, get to full cps, hit trinket proceed to blast - repeat.

[broken saffron]

Like procs. Maybe there is a right or a wrong way to use Coup. I don't know what I'm asking tbh, It's hard to know what you dont know haha

[olive canyon]

oh yeh

so one big thing is dont use the BP macro for coup

or use it but have a seperate one for BP on its own

And when you are at 4 stacks of unseen/have coup up, DONT hit the macro BP or use coup until you get more adds in - this is a nice min max thing rather than wasting coup on say the gather phase of a pull

other than that make sure you are getting 8 globals in your dance, like do the basic stuff and youll see big gains

[broken saffron]

What macro are we talking about? Only one im using is Teach and SD

[broken saffron]

This part I dont understand. Does wowhead explain it?

[olive canyon]

then dont worry about it, just hold coup until a pack is full gathered IF coup is up in transition

Every time you shadowdance, you effectively want to hit 8 buttons/spells

so dance+sectec, is one. then 7 more, you can fit them in if you have about 700 haste

SS+sectec>Storm>bp etc etc

[broken saffron]

Like what? When i engage, I do that with full combo points. I hit SB-trinket, macro (Sd-tech) into builders and spenders. That's what you mean?

Nice! My problem has to be the timings of my burts then!

[vale pine]

its fine

[stoic anchor]

I got 98 average in keys 15. Don't talk to me or my son ever again jk, mad luv<3

[vale pine]

i played a bit on ptr

and its like, whatever

[stoic anchor]

And what's the dmg loss if u play premed?

If it's like 1% i cba tbh

[void ocean]

Im not mad, wtf

[stoic anchor]

Kidding man, i'm sick af, with fever at work trying to banter xd

[void ocean]

Hang in there

[stoic anchor]

I think that 8% increase healing taken is very underrated

If i drop premed it would be cause of that^

The shadowstep is rly good too

[warm marlin]

premed in keys even worse since u have storm

ephemeral goated

[obsidian crag]

will radiant plume (crit version) surpass gaze in power for sub next patch?

[thorn sundial]

anyone got a bis list for 12.0.5?

[sharp peak]

I imagine your bis list can just be taken from the sim

[thorn sundial]

yea but cant figure out how to do 12.0.5 sim

[sharp peak]

It’s already done though. They don’t need yours lol.

[thorn sundial]

ah yes where is it?

sorry

[sharp peak]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stoic anchor]

My biggest concern is that 99.99% of bad players will blame the smoke bomb we created not being able to see mechanics on ground and asking us to spec out of it. Don't pin this, this will age very very well, like old fine wine

Because i don't know how bad it is for visibility

[ember hound]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

Expert mode at the bottom add this to the header: ptr=1

[thorn sundial]

tried but it didnt work

[dreamy wedge]

Hey @fuu, I see that in your spreadsheet you still run premeditation and and warning signs for dungeon slice - is that the best or simpley not updated yet?

[vagrant fossil]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[lilac stag]

What doesn’t work?

[vagrant fossil]

https://mimiron.raidbots.com/simbot

You can also just use this website

Literally raidbots, but with PTR patch

[thorn sundial]

it came back with a crash when i tried earlier but worked now so much have been doing something wrong. thanks

[empty bobcat]

potent powder for dragons right?

[hazy breach]

Literally the same as before

[thin sinew]

and i will literally not give two shits. they can turn down their settings.

[wintry heart]

If someone complains about my smoke bomb I will tell them to git gud and move on with my life 😅

[vagrant fossil]

I would not be surprised if Blizzard changes the visual of it for others if it hides mechanics

[fiery fog]

man i feel so useless on beloren small eggs

[spare oar]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bronze turret]

@lucid jackal nice sims, I bet they want sub to be 13% ahead of other rogue specs on st

I bet they didn’t realize how big this change is

[hazy breach]

It isnt

[bronze turret]

Then fuu only updated sub?

In the sheet

[hazy breach]

Yes

And added vantus

[tranquil sorrel]

Is the opener up to date on wowhead?

[vale pine]

yes

[bronze turret]

Is the assa sim old

[vale pine]

yes

[lucid jackal]

What

[vale pine]

i only updated the trickster sim so fasr

[bronze turret]

Got baited by fuu’s sheet

Forget I said anything

[vale pine]

but i have time now

so i can start doing outlaw/sin

[ornate ruin]

with 298 gear as well I see

very nice

[tranquil sorrel]

Small bumparino :3

[lucid jackal]

Bros getting ragebaited by buffs

[finite hedge]

Does anyone know how lethality+surprising strikes+planned execution+finality stack for crit damage. Is it all adative?

[dry flame]

dont forget to drink plenty of water and not skip sleep

[karmic harbor]

Is sub better than assa on crown

[vale pine]

i would say sub is better but it probsaby makes no diffrence

[tranquil sorrel]

Nothing ever matters

[stuck arrow]

Sin probably slightly better in P3, sub probably slightly better in P2.

Splitting hairs.

[lucid jackal]

Sub on reset

[tranquil sorrel]

Sub gonna be goated af in raid

assa still bis in M+

[shrewd lantern]

still mid

at best

[lucid jackal]

Probably not

I think both outlaw and sub will just be better in keys on reset

6% buff is a lot

[tranquil sorrel]

lemme be delusional I need a W

[lucid jackal]

Sin isn't that much better in keys

[wintry heart]

I love sin, and have played it forever but no shot

[shrewd lantern]

most people arent doing keys sin does well in

[dull sierra]

I kinda like spreading my bleeds and tabbing out to watch a stream though

[shrewd lantern]

higher than 18

[small sleet]

i genuinely hope some of the good rogue players start playing sub in keys again

[dry flame]

top p3 logs are still sub on

[tranquil sorrel]

I tiemd a few 18s as sub this week

[shrewd lantern]

well casual plays other classes doesnt he

[tranquil sorrel]

but feels like assa is so much better rn cause of funnel prio damage

[shrewd lantern]

zac plays outlaw

zerocool is a sin otp

[hollow spear]

Zac would play outlaw even if it healed the mobs

[shrewd lantern]

ig theres my goat || lashga ||

[shrewd lantern]

yes i like writing streamer buzzwords too

[obsidian crag]

lol, this dude

[small sleet]

yeah thats around where im at, i just wants some logs of names i know that are way better than me so i can see the things i need to change

[shrewd lantern]

people would press evis over bp

and call it prio funnel

while doing tank dam

instead of spamming bp

[tranquil sorrel]

Ok? lol

[wintry heart]

I’m only in 15s so I guess I’ll never be where sin excels

[shrewd lantern]

sub hasnt done funnel since start of bfa

[keen dome]

Someday we'll have a tank spec and then we can really do tank damage

[dry flame]

tbf - he was talking about assa, which does function like that

[tranquil sorrel]

Bro talkin shit and has n*zi anime girls as discord banner

[shrewd lantern]

ngl never met a good pug rogue

[keen dome]

but youv'e met me

[shrewd lantern]

dude has a mid series without my goat griffith

smh

[stuck arrow]

I don't ever meet rogues in pugs, lol.

[obsidian crag]

u are the rogue , right?

[dry flame]

I do, and they steal my myth gazes

[stuck arrow]

Pugs like 60% Paladins.

[shrewd lantern]

i dont invite them usually but yeah

9 rets for every rogue

[obsidian crag]

i get pissed when they take arms warriors instead of me

[keen dome]

I'll always invite every rogue that applies

[wintry heart]

So… should I do all avenues to try and get a myth track dagger this week before using an upgrade thing on one

[shrewd lantern]

well arms is technically better

[astral axle]

im glad for arms warrior

[shrewd lantern]

its just dps warrior mains

[astral axle]

i wish them nothing but the best

[shrewd lantern]

have the collective braincell of an ant colony

[stuck arrow]

But they have shout, so I'd invite them over a rogue

[wintry heart]

I played with an arms warrior named Mongo in a key this weekend and he kept dying to avoidable things and I said “man he’s really living up to his name”

[stuck arrow]

👀

[small vortex]

real!

[keen dome]

My favourite thing in the warrior discord is the counting channel.

I love it

[shrewd lantern]

People will complain they dont get into pugs

[small vortex]

i played warrior as my main for like 3 xpacs!

[shrewd lantern]

while being under 280

and theres people with gear in the queue

it aint that deep

[small vortex]

imagine not being 4k io applying to my 12s

[wintry heart]

I was 259 at the start of this week and it was hell

[tranquil sorrel]

true

[wintry heart]

I’m 272 now and it’s much better

[astral axle]

EO Wilson's writings on ant colonies may surprise you!!

They are interesting little critters

[shrewd lantern]

i mean 12s are vault filler range

[small vortex]

ye they are

[shrewd lantern]

its the easiest vault fill key level

[wintry heart]

Have you seen some of the people in 12s

[small vortex]

but man do some people be weird in them

[shrewd lantern]

yeah thats a q your own key

[shrewd lantern]

yeah

[wintry heart]

My own key this week was a 15 seat 😭

[vivid phoenix]

i have evrything on +18 and 2x +19 if that is good enought for you. But i can say sub is no fun on 19´s

[shrewd lantern]

i had a disc in skyreach who wrote a paragraph about disc healing profile to the tank

before key started

[tranquil sorrel]

18 AA 💀

[shrewd lantern]

and blud gets knocked off

by the slow spinning thing on first boss

[small vortex]

AA 🙁

[dry flame]

idk, but tanks in 14-16 ranges are so giga troll, it's crazy - i've tried over 15 keys this week 16+, literally every single one tank throws like no tomorrow

[small vortex]

we completely botched the start of one and just spent time testing shit lol

[shrewd lantern]

because the good tanks dont pug

why pug when you can invite good dps

?

[dry flame]

well im solo, what choice do i have?

[wintry heart]

I did a 13 MT and the monk tank pulled on vibes (he forgot we didn’t have a warlock to skip last pack before last boss) and it was honestly super chill

[shrewd lantern]

i said as a tank

you’re in demand

so why willingly take the risk

to play with nutsack draggers

only bad tanks do

[stuck arrow]

Tank privilege is so real lol

[wintry heart]

Careful the rets might hear you

[grand galleon]

do we already know the cap for voidcores or is blizzard still blue balling us?

[small vortex]

some bad tanks explode my balls with what they do!

mm yes let me pull 8 casters with 3 30s cd kicks!

and almost 0 aoe stops!

[shrewd lantern]

I mean if you’re a good tank

you can cherrypick good dps

so why bother pugging

[swift tinsel]

can hold up to 8 iirc

get 2 per week

[wintry heart]

Is this the extra roll or extra ilvl item

[small vortex]

yeah im glad i found a group that pushes

[dry flame]

Stuck in a toxic loop then - can't get more io because even when i push my own key, people throw.
Can't get invited to better groups because my io is not high enough.

[small vortex]

cause i can get early io for free then chill without worrying

[shrewd lantern]

i know a good one that autodeclines sin rogues

[grand galleon]

so we can upgrade 2 myth items per week? I think I read that you can also trade one for 6 tokens of merit from weekly vault, not sure if thats true

[shrewd lantern]

since most complain about restealth

way too much

[small vortex]

lol

[small sleet]

whats your characters name? ill take a look at em

[swift tinsel]

idk, didn't see anything about ascendent voidcores having a cap

they're both called voidcores tho

ascendent and nebulous

[vivid phoenix]

rotkarrogus

[dry flame]

tbf, if you're gonna run out and sit and stare a mob for 10 sec and then "chainpull" into another group instead of spend a third of the time just finishing that one mob off...

[swift tinsel]

"Players can use Nebulous Voidcore Nebulous Voidcores to more easily obtain specific equipment via Bonus Loot rolls. Decimus will offer Nebulous Voidcores to the player in exchange for a choice of gold, Voidlight Marl, or Veteran Dawncrests. The total number of Nebulous Voidcores available to a character increases by two every week for the remainder of the season."

[dry flame]

But if its actual, proper chain pulls, its no big deal

[shrewd lantern]

nah alot of sin rogues are pepega

and pretend a good chain isnt beneficial

[grand galleon]

but you need 4 for upgrade trade if I am not mistaken

[dry flame]

I agree, im just saying its definitely more 50/50 on tanks who don't actually know when/how to chainpull

[shrewd lantern]

autodecline anyone wearing bloodfang

biggest red flag

[small sleet]

ok thanks! ill take a look in a bit

[shrewd lantern]

i specified good tanks

if you chain bad you’re a bad tank

[dry flame]

That's most of them

[shrewd lantern]

its not limited to mr mdi pull into abandon 30 seconds later

[small vortex]

chaining is op!

[dry flame]

in my experience, 1/10 chain well (from pugging)

[swift tinsel]

idk I didn't see anywhere mention that it costs more than 1

[dry flame]

rest just linger 3% singular mobs around

and just stare at them for 10+ sec

[swift tinsel]

just says it requires a maxed out hero or myth track item

[shrewd lantern]

the average pug tank is like this

[shrewd lantern]

yeah we call these bad tanks

[keen dome]

If I had a tank spec, I'd be so good at chain pulling

[small vortex]

i dont pug big keys but i love the tanks that pull 3 mobs and then stand still!

[grand galleon]

its weird it launching tommorow and we dont know how to works...well, I guess I will wait for NA friends to provide answers

[small vortex]

when we have lust!

[dry flame]

side note - literally

[shrewd lantern]

your tank dies because he cant press buttons on a big pull

mine lets people die to aggro because hes messaging egirls mid pull

big diff

[small vortex]

lol!

[dry flame]

but he pressed his 15 sec duration big CD for this 40 sec pull, clearly healer wasn't healing

[vivid phoenix]

npnp but pls dont look at my sin keys im still confused what this specc does xdd

[shrewd lantern]

i swear the flower pull of AA

is popcorn

[swift tinsel]

idk it doesn't sound that complicated

[small vortex]

bleeds things

[dry flame]

its usually a prot pally, nice to see some diversity

[swift tinsel]

buy nebulous voidcores to roll on loot, loot ascendant voidcores to upgrade loot

[shrewd lantern]

vdhs are the worst offenders

because if you leap into a pack you sync all their autos

[swift tinsel]

can only upgrade weps and trinkets iirc

[small vortex]

bdks too maybe

[dry flame]

#efficiency

[swift tinsel]

nah bdk is slow

[shrewd lantern]

how many items can we upgrade first week

[swift tinsel]

gotta get in melee range at walking speed

[keen dome]

correct

[small vortex]

somehow forget to press drw. explode!

[shrewd lantern]

i need to upgrade mh and guidon/gaze

[swift tinsel]

gotta have drw up and blood boil the big bois before you get there

[shrewd lantern]

to 298

[dry flame]

we don't have to worry about upgrading gaze at least, amirite?

[swift tinsel]

or use it to range pull like that

since boil is based on where drw is when its up and also where you are

[shrewd lantern]

just loot gaze

[small vortex]

im going to loot it in my vault

100% this week fr

[shrewd lantern]

this is the way

[swift tinsel]

I'm getting myth crit/haste dagger

[small vortex]

our other rogue left so im the only one left now

[swift tinsel]

or hero hc alleria neck

then I can go crit/mastery craft on dagger

[shrewd lantern]

people have more than 1 rogue?

what the helly

[dry flame]

Listen, me and my Crucible trinket are in a long-term relationship and are happy fr fr

[small vortex]

well we had 2 but wox left and cl wasnt raiding

[lilac osprey]

Guys, anyone knows why we got our BIS gear changed mid season?..

[small vortex]

so i played!

then we got another 🙁

[swift tinsel]

gonna get me a nice beetle stabber

[small vortex]

then he left!

[small vortex]

stat prio has changed with .5 patch talent changes

[shrewd lantern]

i have no idea what this is

[slender kraken]

Crit is good for the spec now

[swift tinsel]

crit/haste dagger from pit

[small vortex]

isnt that the pit dagger

ye

[shrewd lantern]

oh i dont pay attention

i just loot

[small vortex]

Krik's Beetle Stabber or something

[swift tinsel]

ye krik's

[lilac osprey]

Though on that but when i read the changes didnt thought that would have that much of impact in the gear wtf

[shrewd lantern]

i mean bis lists dont matter

use topgear

[small vortex]

the new cloud talent gives like 150% crit dmg

[dense stream]

anyone can link rogue buffs for sub?

for next id?

[shrewd lantern]

unless you somehow have every item on myth

[small vortex]

but you wanna just sim yourself

[lilac osprey]

I use ofc but knowing i already had 4 bis myth items and now none of those is BIS is fucked up xS

[lilac stag]

Because we don’t have an actual BiS. That’s just fantasy island. Get 700 haste. Get Guidon. Get Crit & Mastery gear.

[swift tinsel]

I'm vibe gearing this season personally

[small vortex]

bis lists dont matter unless youre on test server lol

[shrewd lantern]

doesnt matter

theres dozens of combinations within error

[lilac osprey]

Yeah im just gonna follow the right stats

[lilac stag]

bis list matters to me. I’m a classic Andy

[wintry heart]

Pit pants no longer being “bis” right after I loot them is hilarious (I know the list doesn’t matter) it’s just funny

[swift tinsel]

I mean pit pants still good

[small vortex]

your bis is now guidon + box

please make sure to use both well

[swift tinsel]

I like spire pants better

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/black-and-white-toy-story-andy-toys-woody-gif-17285772

[shrewd lantern]

guidon gaze

ig you could swap gaze for plume

[lilac stag]

Crit Plum is giga good

[shrewd lantern]

every other slot whatever

[small vortex]

plume good

[lilac stag]

and can swap to mastery for keys

[keen dome]

Plume is very good but harder to get on myth because, well.

There's a birb

[shrewd lantern]

more likely to have a myth gaze

than myth plume

[small vortex]

just kill the bird

[lilac stag]

Just scramble eggs

[keen dome]

impossible

[vale pine]

i updated a few slots because they sim better with the trickster changes

[keen dome]

pugs can't even kill heroic baloren consistently, the easiest fight in the game

[small vortex]

scramble or get scrambled

[shrewd lantern]

its been 4 weeks people still dont have gaze?

[vale pine]

but overall should stay similar

[shrewd lantern]

skill issue tbf

[keen dome]

it doesn't even drop!!!!

[swift tinsel]

isn't max prism about the same crit as plume

[wintry heart]

I’ve traded away like 3 of this PIT rings

[small vortex]

you didnt loot it in vault?...

[dry flame]

wonder if they'll nerf it enough to be puggable b4 next tier

[timid rose]

we haven't seen a single gaze drop for our raid, the few people that have it got lucky in vault

[swift tinsel]

and then more crit than plume when lower hp

[keen dome]

oh it'll be puggable sooner than later

when we have 298 weapons and 10% raid buff

Can probably brute force msot of it by then

[dry flame]

1% per week is going slow, but i am mentally done with the tier, so that affects it

[shrewd lantern]

i doubt most people will kill mythic bird

[keen dome]

Ye

Doesn't it cap at 15%

[shrewd lantern]

i mean i dont think this tier needs a buff

its not that difficult

idk

[alpine wraith]

mythic bird will be killable in 2 weeks in 1 phase

with like 2 heals

or maybe 3 weeks

[swift tinsel]

"it's not that difficult" "I double most people will kill mythic bird"

[lilac stag]

Arguably hardest boss of all time for rwf and nah tier is ezclap

[shrewd lantern]

voidspire the bosses dont really start until paladins

[swift tinsel]

[golden coral]

!macr

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[shrewd lantern]

most of the playerbase doesnt raid normal even

[dry flame]

there was some calculation for % of wow players and total players from back during its peak numbers around wrath/cata

and if it was supposed to be today's market (and video game players)

wow should be at over 30 mill players

[shrewd lantern]

well yeah mmos are a dead genre

too much investment

[keen dome]

Ye, outside the monoliths currently out, there won't be another MMO made.

[dry flame]

also pre-social media, now that's main competition for gaming

[keen dome]

Live service replaced the market share.

[swift tinsel]

at least not a competitive one

[shrewd lantern]

raiding is the only thing keeping wow relevant

[dry flame]

you think so? even tho such a small % of players engage with it?

[keen dome]

WoW is keeping WoW relevant as there's nothing else on the market like it.

[swift tinsel]

^^

[shrewd lantern]

thats the main selling point of wow

[vale pine]

there is no competition to wow

thats why

[shrewd lantern]

theres ffxiv

closest

but not really

[vale pine]

ffxiv isn't rly competing

[swift tinsel]

ye its kind of its own thing

[keen dome]

FF14 and WoW are the only MMO's that have a popular following. But I wouldn't call them competition, yeah.

[swift tinsel]

bc it also has this massive IP

[shrewd lantern]

yeah its square enix

[keen dome]

Arguably FF14 is probably the only thing keeping SE alive since they seem incapable of making good business decisions

[shrewd lantern]

legacy of their old games

as much as the 7 remake was a dumb cashgrab

[vale pine]

there are many mmo's that are bigger than wow and ff14

[small vortex]

xiv is the only thing keeping SE going

[dry flame]

IF Riot mmo releases, that is the only one with a chance.
Mostly because it's one of the rare cases, where lore pre-dates the game and has existing fanbase (which was the case with wow, ffxiv and potentially the riot one)

[swift tinsel]

FF is like...one of the biggest names in gaming history

[keen dome]

Are there?

[vale pine]

yes

[swift tinsel]

roblox

[vale pine]

like genshin impact

[keen dome]

That's not an MMO

[vale pine]

it is, but not a mmorpg

technically even that

[keen dome]

You literally do not interact with other players outside of an extremely minor part of it

Like, there's no massively multiplayer element at all

[shrewd lantern]

xiv is the closest thing and it mostly succeeds off SE’s IP

[dry flame]

the IP is technically valued lower than WoW's, but they've done waaaaaaaaaaaaay more with it. Part of the reason for the Blizz push for extra content (and new games in the wow unvierse)

[shrewd lantern]

and the ff franchise as a whole

[swift tinsel]

No I mean final fantasy is one the biggest most recognizable names in gaming

[vale pine]

think the definition of mmo is vague

[swift tinsel]

across anything

[keen dome]

I think an MMO has to actually have the MM part.

[vale pine]

technically every game a large amount of players can interact with a world online is an mmo

[keen dome]

Genshin doesn't

[shrewd lantern]

whatever happened to that m+ clone

fellowship

[keen dome]

Fellowship? It's alive, doing well iirc

[swift tinsel]

people still rocking fellowship

[small vortex]

fellowship...

[shrewd lantern]

[keen dome]

Just like most seasonal games it comes and goes

[small vortex]

its still going but like

[swift tinsel]

once midnight dies down again folks will hop back over

it will live off of wow's seasonal ebb and flow

[small vortex]

no reason to play during an active season

[swift tinsel]

but their dev attention is miles ahead of wow bc its smaller

[shrewd lantern]

idk i feel wow is kept alive

[keen dome]

WoW's power is it retains a huge and diverse cross-section of players. something like Fellowship only retains one part (and also it doesn't have to retian since it's not a subscription game)

[shrewd lantern]

due to raid seasons

[vale pine]

ye, think genshin is too much single player focused

might be a bad example

[small vortex]

playing mara is actually what got me to play rogue xd

[swift tinsel]

mara honestly is a really fun alternative to wow rogue

[keen dome]

A better example would be Destiny 2 which isn't a traditional MMO

[vale pine]

but mmo is very poorly defined

[keen dome]

Or like, Warframe

[swift tinsel]

bc it combines a lot of elements from all 3 specs but also plays them in fun and interesting ways

[shrewd lantern]

but im just saying

[small vortex]

i pretty much exclusively played hemotoxin but it was fun

[shrewd lantern]

if people complained about m+ and say fellowship is better

[swift tinsel]

fellowship also didn't really set out to compete with wow

[keen dome]

But right now you've got, like.. WoW, FF14, Guild Wars 2 as your traditional MMO's. Stuff like Destiny 2 (which is dying, because lol bungo) and Warframe as non-standard MMO's.

[shrewd lantern]

why do they not just play fellowship

really makes you think

[keen dome]

Runescape I guess but I don't think it's growing so much as existing.

[vale pine]

but

[swift tinsel]

not really

[keen dome]

Maybe they did and got bored and like WoW for other stuff and M+ and WoW has new content?

[swift tinsel]

its pretty straightforward

[dry flame]

And most of all - social media. Games are not games' main competitors nowadays

[swift tinsel]

people played fellowship bc it was fun and new compared to wow m+, and also does some parts of it better as a game you can just kinda jump into

[vale pine]

runescape, roblox, warframe and poe are all technically mmos

[keen dome]

We should all go back to MUDs.

[keen dome]

Damn, PoE is a good one. Yeah, that's fair.

[shrewd lantern]

yeah im more talking people who said fellowship was just better m+

[small vortex]

we should all just join a public MC server

[shrewd lantern]

then choose not to play

[small vortex]

build houses or some shi

[keen dome]

Let's go back to ultima online

[swift tinsel]

idk we still have people in guild that play fellowship on top of m+

[vale pine]

flyff

XD

[shrewd lantern]

I feel people have gotten less social

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[shrewd lantern]

and demand queue systems

to not have to interact with people

[swift tinsel]

its also just way more convenient to have a queue system

[keen dome]

I don't think we can really qualify this 'cos I would say the opposite. We play WoW in different ways.

[swift tinsel]

yeah

agreed

[dry flame]

-# social media

[vale pine]

i actually wonder if the early online fps games would be labled as mmo now or not

[keen dome]

I'm on AD, and it's an incredibly social, active server.

[swift tinsel]

and its also a time investment thing

if you want to just hop in a guick game or two

[shrewd lantern]

im talking people who do just pug m+

[swift tinsel]

queue and bam

[shrewd lantern]

never add anyone

etc

[swift tinsel]

that's kinda always existed tho

[keen dome]

I don't think so but you could def make an argument for it. Like, CS was def Massively Multiplayer to some extent but I guess you have to define it to like

[dry flame]

i try, but ppl don't want to, even if we have a smooth run

[swift tinsel]

I grouped with tons and tons of people pre-lfg queueing and didn't add them

[shrewd lantern]

Yesh i think people are averse to it

[keen dome]

Is it "A lot of people playing online" or "A lot of people playing online in a shared world" as the criteria?