subtlety

[small sleet]

the reason i ask is i dont see anyone apexing all the supercharged finishers, and while i know its good in single target to apex every finisher, i wasnt 100% on how it shook out in aoe

[manic ivy]

guys, is it okay to reach 700 haste (guidon) with oils? or it needs to be without oils flask etc

[tribal blade]

fine with oils

[small sleet]

with oils/flask is fine

[manic ivy]

aight tyvm

[vale pine]

yes

[fossil forge]

is there any way to change lights potential to draughts here?

[frank wolf]

Do you have cooldownmanagercentered addon?

[fossil forge]

nop

i use this

[frank wolf]

Cdc has a “custom tracker” tab, you can just drag and drop draughts and style it in the same square way

Dont know if there will be any override issues with ayije

[tepid trellis]

add the spell ids

[hazy breach]

Is the same in aoe

[hazy breach]

Fwiw i would absolutely not recommend draught

[small sleet]

obviously sim your own character to make sure the same idea lines up for you, but according to a 10 target 40 second sim reck pot is showing almost a 10% increase in dps over lights potential pot for me. i am using guidon though so that lines up with what eleem said. i'll check out what it looks like if i put puzzle box on

[fossil forge]

@tepid trellis 🐐

[small sleet]

not sure how much information can be gleaned from a 40 second sim, but i was just curious specifically what the difference might look like in a lust window in an m+ phys comp

[tribal blade]

might just keep using light's potential tbh, makes things less complicated haha

[small sleet]

haha yeah thats always an option, esp since on single target bosses you wanna use lights potential anyways

[tribal blade]

if i was seriously pushing i would consider it

but aim is to just hit 1% this season for the mount which is light work

[small sleet]

yeah you got this for sure

[tribal blade]

oh yeah i'm not worried at all

[small sleet]

ok yeah with puzzle box the gain is WAY less substantial

[fossil forge]

https://tenor.com/view/sadhotgirl-gif-22225832

[small sleet]

reck pot is showing as 1.2% better than lights potential for me when i put my puzzle box on in the scenario i described, so sticking to lights potential with puzzle box is 100% valid

[fossil forge]

opinion deflected. PURPLEPOTIONMAXXING

[small sleet]

the mental overhead of purple pot just cant be worth it haha

[fossil forge]

sometimes it spawns a lot of the silencing pools

sometimes 0

sometimes 1

hard to see in big pulls though

i got cucked on vorasius by it hella

[small sleet]

yeah i cba bricking a pull to bad luck like that

[fossil forge]

but you have like 1 second to get out of the pool before you get silenced

so if you have eyes its ok

definitely makes the game spicier

:D

[paper siren]

Should I even run it purple pot if I have 200ms lol

[small sleet]

you realistically shouldnt run purple pot ever

[frank wolf]

Probably shouldn’t be running rogue with 200 ms

[small sleet]

the dps gain from playing perfectly around it is too minimal to risk losing even 1 gcd

[hazy breach]

Well the more mastery you have already the worse the pot will become as youre hitting heavy diminishing returns

[paper siren]

Still parsing 90s XD

[tribal blade]

i feel your pain, i also play with 200ms

[small sleet]

yeah i figured that'd be the case, i was just curious what the numbers actually looked like since ive seen a fair number of puzzle box using rogues still using reck pot in keys

[frank wolf]

200 ms is crazy bro is fitting 3 finishers per 2 shadow blades

[tribal blade]

can be tough sometimes but i make it work

[hazy breach]

Those players (mostly chinese) are also having like 200 haste and like 1.4k mastery baseline + puzzle, and with that kind of profile reck was simming as a loss compared to lights potential

[tribal blade]

the worse thing is getting hit by stuff it looks like i'm not in on my monitor

[hazy breach]

Atleast when i checked before, maybe cloud cover changes it but probably not. If anything cloud cover should make lights potential slightly better since storm hits harder

[tribal blade]

200 haste sub sounds so awful

[small sleet]

im pretty sure it is awful haha

[tribal blade]

well they time very high keys with it so it works

[paper siren]

We simply lock in :) it painful play on

[tribal blade]

but the ST sounds like it would be horrible to play

[hazy breach]

For huge aoe it definitely isnt. But the issue is that you can re-arrange your stuff elsewhere so regular ~700 haste+guidon sims very similar in aoe, but massively ahead in ST

[tribal blade]

i think sub's niche in keys right now is good ST

[hazy breach]

Like standard haste + mastery enchants sim very similar to that setup with agi enchants (agi sims higher than mastery since big DR) in enormous aoe

[exotic steeple]

do dremarift and voidspire share same id?

[hazy breach]

no

[exotic steeple]

k ty

[small sleet]

you can time keys even if you're not making the "optimal" stat choices, and from what i see in logs, even in huge aoe pulls which should be the benefit in theory, they're not doing much more damage than guidon + reck pot with 700 haste

[hallow mortar]

damn stelthi vibing with 20 fps in raid 😄

[tribal blade]

yeah just typical chinese players doing things their own way haha

they did the same thing running vigor+tea back when CB was better

[verbal idol]

Is there any way to track "First Dance" cooldown, to see if the 6 seconds are up?

[paper siren]

Lowkey I want to try DS sub

[tribal blade]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Essential:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - Enhanced Cooldown Manager.
• WangBar / SensaiBar - Resource bar (when using blizzard CDM)
• MSUF / UUF - Unit frame mods.
• Platynator - Nameplate Addon.
  Quality of Life:
• Buff Reminders - Food/Flask/Poison Reminder.
• WilduTools - QOL enhancements.
• Mute Cold Blood sound
• The first dance tracker

[small sleet]

simply drop the talent, join the dark side

[hazy breach]

Go ahead, its alright, especially on ST

[vocal rock]

So with the new reroll and upgrade system… can I target heroic guidon and then immediately upgrade it to 295ilvl? Or am I misunderstanding how this thing is going to work

[vale pine]

you need to fully upgrade a heroic/mythic piece first, and you are limited by how many you can upgrade

[fossil forge]

bis item for trolling

[vale pine]

so its not like "every trinket that drops becomes fully upgraded automatically"

[vocal rock]

Got it

With the new upgrade system and needing to swap to crit gear it’s going to be interesting figuring it all out lol

[hollow spear]

I feel like the "need" to swap to crit is kinda overstated

[hazy breach]

Get a crit flask instead of mastery flask and youre pretty much done

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1488547832062415010/drop_fixed.png

[fathom adder]

or just use the assa gearset nicer to swap for sure

[small sleet]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fossil forge]

@tribal blade

unc

[tribal blade]

yo!

[fossil forge]

what rio r u rn

[tribal blade]

3 points off 3400

[fossil forge]

r u pugging

[tribal blade]

nah

well partially pugging

i'm only playing with guildies atm

so we run a 3 stack and pug the rest

[fossil forge]

im struggling

[tribal blade]

not pugging solo

[fossil forge]

im pugging though

[tribal blade]

not bad! keep at it

should be easy to fill out the lower keys

with a 17 timed

[fossil forge]

thats what i thought aswell

[tribal blade]

makes a big diff when people see the 17

[fossil forge]

unfortunately

yellowclass

...

[tribal blade]

LOL true

don't make the mistake of trying to pug into higher keys

[small sleet]

the key to getting accepted is only applying to groups that mostly consist of phys comp buffs

[tribal blade]

just fill out your lowest keys first

[fossil forge]

im pretty much just playing my key

[tribal blade]

obviously it's way more efficient to do the higher keys

[fossil forge]

otherwise its misery

[small sleet]

if you apply to groups with a devourer/unholy dk/aug/demo lock already in it its crazy unlikely you'll get invited

[dry flame]

You get into groups?

[tribal blade]

but whne you're pugging it can kinda be a waste of time trying to get into them

[tribal blade]

ah gotcha

[fossil forge]

sometimes i mostly play my key

[tribal blade]

yeah fill out your resil

getting resil done very important

[fossil forge]

fill out your resil mfw when i got skyreach pit skyreach mc pit mc combo

[tribal blade]

hahaha tough

you're doing fine, just keep chugging along

using lfg to gain IO is always mega pain

no way around it

[fossil forge]

aiming for the mount only aswell

should be aight

[clear hazel]

is my stats good? im using guidon. have 700 haste, 890 mastery, 340 crit and 500 vers

[tribal blade]

yeah will be chill

[tribal blade]

you have too much vers and not enough crit

swap the vers out to crit and you'll be good

[fossil forge]

this my setup for keys

[clear hazel]

cool

im doing raiding actually

[tribal blade]

same thing applies

vers is not great for sub anymore

realisitically want to have the least amount of vers as humanly possible

[weary tree]

Is there updated sims for the deathstalker yet?

Dont see the new stats on the sheet

[kind edge]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[tepid trellis]

does someone want my spot on the windchime so i can go sleep

asking for a friend

[vale pine]

it is an epic fight tho ^^

[keen dome]

Yes but I'd be joining on the side of the windchime

[jaunty ruin]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[tepid trellis]

im very bored

[vale pine]

sylvanas was an epic fight too

or jainna

[finite lark]

!log

[thorny ridge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[small sleet]

is it a known bug that cold blooded killer cant be generated the global after coup de grace? looking at sims, it implies you can get cold blooded killer after coup, but that doesnt seem to be the case in practice

[lilac stag]

@vale pine is the premed bug taken to account in sims?

[obsidian crag]

besides getting extra rolls next reset are we also getting extra ilvl upgrades on day 1 for trinkets n weapons?

[vale pine]

premed bug is not the only reason we skip premed

wanting to use more builder is another one

[lilac stag]

that's not what I asked

[vale pine]

fair

[plush roost]

Ye and ye

Banned

[white siren]

any chance our sustained damage on 2-3 target be better in some next patch ?

[hollow spear]

We have to wait for tww classic

[lilac stag]

so is that a yes or no?
if I compare the two dropping premed only results in 6 additional shadow strikes cast over a 5 min sim. Premed 54 casts vs 60, while losing 9 Evicerates. 96 vs 87

[white siren]

so depressed having none of our spec in mid position on light vanguard

[lilac stag]

mid position would be a blessing

[white siren]

we can only do damage, for most people we bring nothing to raid ... should be good blizzard fix this, atrophic is not considered by 90% of player imo

[lilac stag]

well on that fight atrophic lets you cut out a healer

so... yes it's worth it for most guilds to bring the rogue

as farming a 6th healer in a 500-1000 guild isn't usually an option

[white siren]

any down on this fight is done with 5 healers, people still prefer playing without rogue and bring, hunt or DH

[lilac stag]

or just keep sitting in depression mate

it's one fight

people sit all the time in a mythic raid team

tank if you never want to sit

[white siren]

yeah might be an option ....

[lucid jackal]

Rogue is bad on some of the fights in raid but some of u guys take it a bit far

[clear hazel]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Single Target / Mythic+: Mastery >= `Haste(~18%, roughly 650-700)` > `Critical Strike` > Versatility

[tepid trellis]

nah not far enough

time to rally to the streets

and protest!

[hazy breach]

Seems to work just fine

[small sleet]

the new cold blood fades immediately

[hazy breach]

It does not

[small sleet]

lemme see if i can find it on a log one sec

[tepid trellis]

elmo log my account real quick and do Lura

i need sleep ong

[hazy breach]

No thanks im good rn

[fair phoenix]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2gWEYiqk2FPPvUDeCbh27a

[lucid jackal]

At the end of the day, rogues raid buff is alright. It's been good enough to justify a rogue with mid tuning for over 6 years.

This raid specifically, voidspire, has 2 of the worst rogue, and more specifically anti melee fights the game has had in a long time.

The last time a raid buff got considered "this bad" by the community was hunters mark, and grip. Grip has always been useful in raid, but has only gotten more useful as time goes on. And hunters mark got turned into the best raid buff in the game this expac.

There's a bit too much theatrics around being bad on a few bosses in 1 tier Imo. Things will be fine

[fair phoenix]

lol bro that build is insane

what u think elem

is my one

[hazy breach]

What

[small sleet]

this happened in a key i was just in and im able to recreate it at a target dummy by just immediately shuriken storming after coup. one thing i noticed is that you have to have cold blooded killer already active on the coup strike as well

so maybe in the screen shot you posted that coup doesnt have cold blood already active?

[hazy breach]

It did not

[fair phoenix]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2gWEYiqk2FPPvUDeCbh27a

[hazy breach]

What am i supposed to be looking at

[small sleet]

yeah if i dont have cold blooded killer it works correctly, but if i do it seems to bug out

[fair phoenix]

if u think this is ok

i tried a lot of sims to reach maximum possible lol

[hazy breach]

What

Ok for what

[fair phoenix]

dgsdgs

[hazy breach]

seems so, very strange

[small sleet]

seems like it wants to keep removing cold blood for like another half sec after coup is done

because even if i wait and dont immediately click shuriken storm it still happens

but if i wait like a full global it doesnt happen anymore

[hazy breach]

Unsurprisingly coup has more jank, who couldve expected this

[small sleet]

lmfao

[plush roost]

Coup jank in 2026

Cant wait to find the outlaw coup jank next week

[quaint breach]

how come warcraft logs dps is 10k less than ingame dmg meter? (no dragons)

*for m+

[plush roost]

Is akarris soul seperated

[hazy breach]

Because wcl counts downtime

[small sleet]

in m+, warcraft logs counts downtime

[chrome bolt]

do we care about proccing danse macabre as many times as possible? (like backstabbing during sd?)

[hazy breach]

Ingame damage meter does not

[chrome bolt]

dang coming back to this game after almost a year, every class became 2-3 button

insane

[fair phoenix]

bro

pit of saron

is insane to time on pug

like is a easy key but, the tanks die on the packs

xD

i only can do evasion until bres

[hollow spear]

Evasion doesn't do much if you have low aggro thanks to shadow dance

And your entire party dies while your evasion is up

[molten citrus]

Is this pasta

[fair phoenix]

was on ranged comp ussualy

but yea, sometimes i get agro from some adds

[small sleet]

whats the actual % gain on apexing supercharged combo points?

[hazy breach]

About 1%

[lucid jackal]

No

It's my thoughts

[small sleet]

ok so i have a pretty small sample size so far, but im looking at a bunch of different logs of first pull aa since its the highest target count pull, and from what i see, again with a very small sample size so far, people who cast black powder directly after a cold blood coup are trending closer to the crit chance expected from having cold blood active, while in the logs i have of myself where i shuriken storm after a cold blood coup, i am showing roughly the expected crit chance of not having it active, which could potentially mean the global after a cold blood coup is also benefitting from it?

[shadow snow]

is it really bad that i am not 9/9 Hc yet?

[fossil forge]

@hazy breach the stuff we talked About earlier with ancestral call lets say would it work If i made a macro that used racial first trinket second?

[small sleet]

yes it should

[fossil forge]

just plain old /use ancestrall call and /use 14 should do the trick no?

[molten citrus]

we've only had atrophic for like ~4 years, no?

[small sleet]

yep

[grand galleon]

anybody know how does mount for 3.4k work? do you get token immidiately on reset?

[lucid jackal]

Mybad

Point still stands

Atro has been good for a long time

[molten citrus]

thats the only reason i asked

mb

ig it just "feels bad" that atro can be outweighed for some fights where there's a lot of environmental dmg

[lucid jackal]

Atro will have 1 fight it doesnt work on every other tier and that has given the most amounto f psychic damage to rogue players in human history

[molten citrus]

its still a lot better than what we used to have, which was basically nothing

[hazy breach]

Atro is good, it just doesnt feel like it is

[molten citrus]

yea

[hazy breach]

Because you cant tell

[lucid jackal]

Nobody talks about how nice atro is when it works BETTER than dev aura on EVERY OTHER BOSS

[molten citrus]

everyone wants a dps buff

[lucid jackal]

Well I'd say no raid buff feels like anything to be pedantic

[molten citrus]

but then raid comps get a bit TOO mandatory

[short radish]

yes because no one talks about DR buffs

[hazy breach]

Skyfury definitely feels like anything

[molten citrus]

i think it would just feel better especially for m+ comps since those have centered around damage buffs for quite a while now

[hazy breach]

But yeah i get your point

[lucid jackal]

Ret paladin was played on paladins because of dev aura

The issue for Rogue specifically is you have paladins, a horrible melee fight, plus rogue was grossly undertuned on that fight, followed by voidspire, another horrible melee fight

I mean atro should just be a damage buff, or just like

Turn atro into + numbing and then make a damage buff as well

2 rogue req

[red flame]

Combining Atro + Numbing would be dope af

[quaint breach]

was exposed armor raid wide b4?

[lucid jackal]

Dont say something like that

Expose armor

Bro wants to be casting a maintanence buff as a raid buff

[quaint breach]

haha

[short radish]

idk if rogue can be not brought to 7/9 (1 because it drops dagger) and you can still go "rogue is fine" idk what it's going to take

[quaint breach]

just bake it in with evis

[lucid jackal]

1, theres more to the video game than "what did the WF bring"

[hazy breach]

The main thing that sucks about atro is that for some reason its a 30% chance to be applied and last 10 seconds, whereas the other raid debuffs are 100% chance to be applied and last infinitely

[lucid jackal]

the WF brought 1 rogue to MFO, which was objectively incorrect

[brisk onyx]

atro+numbing in one is a good idea

[lucid jackal]

2 rogues was just correct on forgeweaver, nexus king, and dimensius

[red flame]

2 rogues sounds gross

😷

[lucid jackal]

The whole WF thing drives me actually insane

Rogue is mid, rogue has issues

[hazy breach]

Like crippling shouldve been really good on forgeweaver, but nah you just miss 1/3 of the mobs with the slow every global

[lucid jackal]

Just because WF does something doesnt mean its correct

[hazy breach]

(unless you were playing assa with AoE shiv, but thats practically a root anyway)

[brisk onyx]

and it's strange that nimble can't cleave poison (bf can)

[short radish]

yes I agree, but there is a large community misperception about everything on rogue and everything else from the WF trickles down

[lucid jackal]

Rogue on both lura and belorn is like

"good"

Its like fine

raid buff is good enough, damage is fine

Its not UDK, Its not WW, its not ret, its not whatever

But its like

[lilac stag]

should be objectively better come Tuesday.

[lucid jackal]

It'll be a lot better come tuesday

[keen dome]

big burst big burst

[short radish]

and just like there's more to the video game than just WF. there's also more to the game than just HoF

[lucid jackal]

I agree

[short radish]

sure rogue can be "objectively fine for comps"

[lilac stag]

LFR is real to me.

[keen dome]

I've said as much and people've looked at me weird. WF and HoF are the absolute minority of players, too.

[short radish]

but in the masses of all the plebs

rogue bringing 0 offensive buff makes them not care about rogue

because why bring something that doesnt make me do more damage

[lucid jackal]

If WF does x, how do you mind control the community to act normal

[short radish]

you can't

community is stupid

[steel zinc]

There is still a trickle down effect. Like if you have equal spots and skill between players in a guild there is no reason on fights to bring rogues despite a raid buff

Also tuning is just awful this tier compared to tww

[lilac stag]

You can. Make it obvious so max goes HUNTER MARK IS REALLY STRONG

[lucid jackal]

well 1, the raid buff is the reason to bring the rogue lol

[short radish]

yes this tier is like a triple combo of

shit tuning
shit raid
also no offensive raid buff

[lucid jackal]

and 2, idk if tuning is actually worse than it was in TWW

[short radish]

though shit tuning and shit raid is kinda a combined factor

rogue is fine on ST and Aoe damage

[lucid jackal]

The only reason ret gets brought to paladins is for the raid buff

Its just ret does some damage

While rogue does 0

[steel zinc]

We have no cleave compared to tww

[short radish]

its just that most of the early raid is cleave

like i agree with most of your points guy

[vale pine]

so ret is better rogue?

[steel zinc]

Yes

[short radish]

yes

[lilac stag]

Our raid (de)buff is as confusing as trying to explain true stealth vs shadow dance vs subterfuge to a Ret main.

[lucid jackal]

this tier? Yeah

[west arch]

700 haste with flask o not?

[red flame]

[steel zinc]

No flask

[fair phoenix]

fuck retri paladin

sub > every class

[vale pine]

funny if one spec of a 3 role class outclasses an entire class

[fair phoenix]

fk it

[sly shore]

The fact atrophic lasts 10s too lmao

[west arch]

Only oils?

[steel zinc]

That's why I say tuning is awful

[lucid jackal]

700 needs to be ur total haste while in combat

it doesnt matter what buffs u have

[fair phoenix]

sub = redpill and alpha class

also sigma

[red flame]

i mean tbf you're supposed to be hitting the target re-applying the poison so i mean

[lilac stag]

Just get to 700 any want you can between gear, gems, oils, enchants and flasks

[short radish]

i just disagree and am confused with your takes of rogue is fine with all of your tweets

[fair phoenix]

expend combo points on supercharge = big dick

[lilac stag]

Engagement Farming

[sly shore]

gl on paladins or alleria even though atrophic does zero ont he latter

[lucid jackal]

Rogue is bad, and it sucks on the last 2 fights of voidforge

however, in march, its kinda fine

[short radish]

yeah okay i can agree there

[lucid jackal]

I think atro should be stronger, given it has a bunch of asterisks attatched to it

I also think ppl are a bit dramatic about things because rogue has 1 bad tier

This is all my opinions, and I dont think this detracts from what I tweet

[chilly tree]

where can i find bis gear?

[red flame]

i'll still kill both regardless so i mean thanks ig?

[chilly tree]

just wowhead?

[lilac stag]

In raid and vault.

[chilly tree]

i meant a list of it

[lilac stag]

We
Don’t do lists.

[fair phoenix]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

get 700 haste. Get guidon. You’re bis

[red flame]

BIS List is only BIS if you have every single item on the list

just a tip

[hollow sphinx]

whitch poison is better? numbing or atrophic?

[fair phoenix]

get 700 hast, get biden

[steel zinc]

I think the new trickster talent update is really good also visual and feel wise imo. So the new patch looking great

[fair phoenix]

depends

dungeons with a lot of casts numbing

[lucid jackal]

atro raid numbing dungeons

[short radish]

dramatic yeah, but to open the box of worms. All rogue can bring is damage, we can't play another role. If we can't do the single role that our class can do, then what can we do

[fair phoenix]

on raid u wanna numb for chimerius

[lucid jackal]

This is also the first tier this has happened in over 4 years

Whens the last time rogue has been this mid, genuienly

[lilac stag]

Oddly enough numbing on chim was a huge help for us.

[short radish]

it's the first tier it's been this bad sure

last tier it was this bad iirc was s1 SL

[red flame]

i'll prob try numbing > atro when we start our mythic prog

[short radish]

which was a forever ago

[steel zinc]

Castle

[lucid jackal]

Even if we wanna say Atro is a bad raid buff, and even if I personally think the focus on WF is dumb, WF has played a rogue, on every boss, ever since its been in the game

[lusty acorn]

Lets hope they drop class tunning today

[lilac stag]

The dmg is predictable. It def helped with cast times.

[lusty acorn]

[short radish]

but there are still underlying issues with our class

[lucid jackal]

This is literally, the first raid tier in 4 years rogue has been sat on pinacle bosses

[lilac stag]

See it always goes back to outlaw issues.

[short radish]

in comparison to every other class

[red flame]

hell yeah, will defo keep it in mind ; i appreciate the tip

[lucid jackal]

Like what

[red flame]

i'm pushing for us to start M Chim prog as soon as we get Crown down (AOTC)

[lilac stag]

it’s a fun fight to prog

[red flame]

it defo seems fun

i kinda like the boss

[short radish]

offensive raid buff, and aoe cc which we're getting back. but this is also starting to get into m+ territory

[red flame]

& mythic seems extremely ez

[short radish]

so i'll stop there

[red flame]

its just the hard assigned interrupts yea? theres no intermission or anything, just back to back down phases?

[short radish]

i will keep on beating dead horse that is the offensive raid buff

[lucid jackal]

I mean, just as an example, warrior has an "offensive raid buff", and warrior has been basically unplayable as a DPS for 2 raid tiers

in MFO, it was ass until buffs and later prog for guilds

[lilac stag]

depends on how well your interrrupts, dispels and range can figure out wtf they’re doing.

[short radish]

yes but a warrior is always brought to something

same with monk

[lucid jackal]

DPS rogue sees more play in raid than DPS warrior

[lilac stag]

DPS not wanting to tank isn’t exactly being brought

[short radish]

my perspective is mainly from a pugging point of view also

[lucid jackal]

I'm just trying to point out that other classes, even with offensive raidbuffs have this sort of issue

DPS warrior is giga shit in raid rn

[sharp lake]

I hope they buff warrior so I’m more likely to see Battle Shout in my pugs.

[short radish]

they do, but again and like you said as well. There's more than just the RWF

[lucid jackal]

Arms is good on paladins ofc, but its not like alleria is a "great warrior fight". And both beloren, AND lura are completely dogshit for both DPS warrior specs

I'm not even talking WF tho

More specifically talking HoF

DPS warrior is like, ass on the hard bosses

of march anyway

Arms is v good on paladins

for a melee*

[short radish]

tbh im not even talking hof

because again RFWL raiders are still top 1% of raiders or something

[lilac stag]

when you’re at our rank, our tanks don’t have every single tank ready so we tend to rely on a dps warrior if one of the tanks isn’t going that route.

[lucid jackal]

Sure

[short radish]

im talking about everything from aotc andies upwards

[lilac stag]

literally in for rally and shout it feels like.

can blast in keys though

[short radish]

which arguarbly are the majority

[lucid jackal]

But if you are saying the WF stuff trickles down, wouldnt the same trickle down of "DPS warrior = shit" that you say it does for rogues?

[lilac stag]

So is that better or worse ?

[short radish]

it does and im sure warriors have their issues

i know they have their issues

but your random pug raid will still bring a dps warrior

[vale osprey]

Can we agree both of us are dogshit and just start crying for buffs as we should

[short radish]

for the raid buff

also arguarbly heroic tuning is kinda whatever anyway

[red flame]

no, one must take the crown

[short radish]

no

[lucid jackal]

I mean we are getting buffed on reset

[short radish]

and yeah we're getting buffed

my point is there are underlying rogue issues

[red flame]

cant wait for cloud cover

[vale osprey]

Yeah, a functional change that's buffing us which is welcome

[short radish]

that we are dependent on tuning

[red flame]

ive been wanting smoke bomb back for so long this is "we have smoke bomb at home"

[short radish]

tuned okay = fine

tuned not okay = not fine

[red flame]

even tho they're completely different

lol

[lucid jackal]

I got some bad news, that is how it works for every DPS

[short radish]

yeah i know

[lucid jackal]

Other than 1 of token raid buff slots

Which rogue has been for many tiers

[short radish]

i guess i'm speaking from a class perspective

rather than a role perspective

[red flame]

true & real

[lucid jackal]

Idk abt you, or maybe I'm out of touch

[red flame]

i go to war for my token raid spot

[lucid jackal]

I don't think people swap from tank, to DPS, to healer on a lot of tiers

[red flame]

i'm the Uncle Ruckus of rogues

[lucid jackal]

Like Idk if ppl "play DK" and then 1 tier they play blood, then another they play frost in a raid setting

[red flame]

[short radish]

they 100% do

and also

at the very least

they have the option

[lilac stag]

Most WR 500+ are not fielding more than 5 healers. Watching a dps swap to either role is comical at best.

[red flame]

im the type of person who doesnt even do multiple specs, if i wanna play another spec ima just lvl another char

[short radish]

ive been in plenty of pugs that go "hey xyz can you swap role"

sometimes doesnt work

sometimes does

[lilac stag]

IE running a 3rd tank on dragons.

[short radish]

this is entirely how i play my paladin

[lucid jackal]

My experience as even a casual raider way back in the day was x and y were "the tank players" and then a b c d e were "the healers"

Idk that many people that were like "Oh UDK is bad this tier I'm gonna play blood"

[short radish]

but maybe im in the minority

[lilac stag]

I’m not touching a tank role. I hate the idea of a tank spec for rogue.

Fuck that shit.

[red flame]

dude fr tho

idk why ppl want a tank rogue

[lilac stag]

I named a paladin onlyrets

[lucid jackal]

I also said it in my big block of text for opinions where like

The last time a raid buff, by the community got considered "bad" (even if I don't agree with that assessment) was Hunters mark, which got reworked into the literal best raid buff buff, and then the drama related to grip, which has always been good, but feels like its only gotten more essential since after the whole controversy around it

[vale osprey]

Gimme that ranged rogue, SWTOR bounty hunter/gunslinger tyvm

[lilac stag]

warrior would get renamed Shieldless if I was playing it

[short radish]

yeah so all we gotta do is wait for blizzard to over buff our poison and make the raid revolve around it

[red flame]

LMFAO so real 😭 fuck tanking bro

IF i ever tanked it would be blood dk or veng dh but i wouldnt even wanna tank

i've only tanked like TW dungeons & the like

[short radish]

though the problem is more in m+ than raid tbh

but that's a whole different rabbit hole

and yeah yeah i know rogue has been meta multiple times before

but after shroud got deleted no one ever went "we really need a rogue for our comp"

it's always

need lust

need bres

oh we ahve a phys comp lets get a warrior/shaman/monk/druid

oh we have a magic comp lets get a dh/mage/any spell caster

[tulip gorge]

atrophic reworked into a 3% crit buff

[lucid jackal]

I think thats an issue with M+ in general with how much focus has been put on raid buffs

[short radish]

pretty sure paladins used to be in a really shit position until they got bres, but i didn't follow m+ much back then

yeah m+ has it's own issues

but they kinda overlap

[lucid jackal]

I think there should be something to address that fact more so than "just add more raid buffs" imo

[lilac stag]

You do realize this is how / why many rogues stop pushing keys as rogues and eventually start pushing as tanks.

[short radish]

wasnt yoda a rogue?

i swear he used to be

[lilac stag]

mmhm

Dratnos

A few others

[warm marlin]

Bres even mid since engi cable change

Raid buffs just so strong u play all of them

[short radish]

yeah but it still helps in your trench p*sh keys

it's enough to swing an invite

that being said

just buff drums

also thats enough m+ talk

stinky game mode

[tulip gorge]

I feel like this rogue raid buff discussion is kinda irrelevant, rogue was simply unlucky with dogshit tuning

[lucid jackal]

I agree mostly. I think atro should be even better on paper, due to all the asterisks that do exist around it

[short radish]

mostly yes with the tuning bit, except that it's relevant because the raid buff isn't considered relevant enough

[lucid jackal]

But it has been for 4 years, this is the first time in 4 years it hasn't been, exclusively on fights where rogues weaknesses were standout

[grand galleon]

anybody knows how many voidshards do we get per week? https://www.wowhead.com/ptr/item=268650/ascendant-voidshard

[lucid jackal]

If ret was as bad as rogue is on paladins, it'd also have been benched

and if rogue was as good as ret, it'd been played

[tulip gorge]

yep

[hallow mortar]

max saind on his recap race stream that rogue buff need rework

[short radish]

damn well if max said it

[hallow mortar]

and that it can get it

[warm marlin]

Just give it 1.5% damage and we will never have this discussion again

Very shrimple

[hallow mortar]

max is like the closet person to blizzard

[limpid sage]

Just needs solo queue for us non-FOTM specs

[tulip gorge]

crit chance or crit damage is more thematic for rogue

[prisma ibex]

even haste, like an "adrenaline thing"

[vale vault]

give us both

[lilac stag]

It would be ignorant to dismiss the reach has with getting feedback to at least land infront of a few devs.

[short radish]

my stance is still that at the non RWF/hof level, this issue was always here but it's just been made really obvious how bad it is

[warm marlin]

don’t like crit chance because they sometimes have amp phases with guaranteed crits

[short radish]

just like the haste amp phases

[lilac stag]

How’s copying top .1% of Chinese rogue key pushers working out.

[lilac stag]

Crit Dmg. Chance is pants.

[tulip gorge]

I still feel weird when I realize haste is actually good on rogue

[short radish]

不！ 我也证明了我的价值，奥丁！ 我是神王斯科瓦尔德！ 这些凡人不敢挑战我对宙斯盾的要求！ 如果这些虚假的冠军不会选择交出宙斯盾，那么他们将在死亡中投降它！ 放弃宙斯盾或死亡！

[lilac stag]

Sorry this doesn’t say puzzle box. Big L

[prisma ibex]

imagine we have a Adrenaline Injection Skill, that is a Lust

[tulip gorge]

warrior should get bloodlust

rogue should get something else

they could start by making shroud not be useless

[prisma ibex]

i wish poisons were good, like warlock curses are...

[short radish]

gotta sleep since its way past my bed time but I'll just finish by saying

Every single class except paladin and DK dependent on fight has a raid buff that is basically considered mandatory to bring. It's also noticable on reclear when you get sat because your buff is even more meaningless there.

If blizzard is going to force this "every class is mandatory" then acutally make every class mandatory

good night.

[tulip gorge]

but paladin buff is mandatory

[lilac stag]

sir it's 11 AM

[red flame]

time travellers fr

[fair wedge]

so are we all sending recrafts to haste/crit on reset?

is it gna be a big loss on aoe doing that

[azure thicket]

i timed but also tilted my face off in a 17 pit earlier today ._.

litwelly did tons of cc to prevent my 4 deaths from depleting tho at least

[red flame]

yea Warrior should 100% have Bloodlust & imo Blood DK should have it too

are we gonna be shooting for a certain % of crit when 12.0.5 drops or just as much as we can get (after haste req)

[vale pine]

Just to give short input towards something i saw mentioned earlier

i don't think this is the first time atrophic was bad or weak

but its the first time rogue as a class was weak in a raid atrophic is

rogue could have been benched many times it was played in the past even

midnight simplified everything, and as expected, tuning is way more important as a consequence

Tho tuning is subjective and people love to say its the "best it ever was"

[foggy estuary]

Yeah, doesnt feel like the best it ever was tho

[hallow mortar]

i agree with you fuu, you are totally right about we should have crit as raid buff

[fossil forge]

i just joined a +17 that requested rogue and a guy left because i am not a aug LOL

[tulip gorge]

it's always the best it has ever been when you're the meta class (aka some caster)

[vale pine]

its the best it has ever been since SL every tier

[tulip gorge]

this raid has been complete dogshit for melee

and I am not going to praise blizzard for it

they dropped the ball

[vale pine]

i mean, it could be worse ^^

[foggy estuary]

They obviously cant fix rogue, but at least they should cater some runs to utilize us and the whole “stealth ninja” class fantasy. Like, blackrook hoold, darkheart thicket, maw of souls, all those in legion benefited from rogue stealth to skip and push keys. And i know that for a fact because i was playing and doing 20-22+ in legion.

[tulip gorge]

they can fix rogue, they just need to stop glazing DK for one second

[foggy estuary]

Make kidney shot an aoe CC when in stealth, make dungeons without a billion mobs that can detect stealth, give us a couple more buttons in the rotation, and yeah, should be amazing then imo

[tulip gorge]

they should make goremaw a real button

[vale pine]

or.. just remove it

[tulip gorge]

I've been a big sub rework hater

[vale pine]

people keep telling me how great goremaws is

[tulip gorge]

but I tried playing it this season and it's not too bad

it's even fun

[vale pine]

and how its easy to fix

[tulip gorge]

but it needs some more rotation complexity

[brisk onyx]

You're too optimistic: these claims contradict the current M+ design. I guarantee you, even if these dungeons reappear, they will modify them accordingly

[vale pine]

just make it a completely new talent which in no way is related to the spell, but if you do that

it for surely will be a great button

[foggy estuary]

I miss DFA🙃

[vale pine]

and, i mean

[tulip gorge]

I liked rupture a lot

to spread while tank was gathering

[vale pine]

i think rupture was great

but i think its hard to re-introduce

from what i saw in here, most long term players celebrated the removal

also players from other specs rly like the change

[lilac stag]

assa is there for you

[vale pine]

rupture had a nice dynamic

it added depth to the gameplay

[foggy estuary]

Its one less thing to track but i liked rupture in sub. They want assa to be the dot spec so🤷‍♂️

[vale pine]

but it still does not rly fit the subtlety fantasy

[tulip gorge]

I'm still gearing up my rogue, once I start doing proper keys I will try out assa

[vale pine]

and it was intentionally tuned weak

[spiral needle]

What depth though? It didn't interact with anything, just a boring maint dot

[vale pine]

so it felt worse to use every patch

[vale osprey]

I was a certified rupture hater ngl

[foggy estuary]

A stealthy ninja with an assasins blade icon not fitting into class fantasy? 🙃

[spiral needle]

Atleast sin's feeds you energy so it feels like more than something than just a more optimal finisher

[warm marlin]

Rupture was a low cleave tool and a finisher that didn’t feel terrible to press outside dance

[vale pine]

it is a static damage dot, that you could turn into shadow damage to inetract with all of your magic amp talents

[warm marlin]

It had a place

[vale pine]

it also got buffed by all of your other damage amps and mastery

[spiral needle]

No no, I mean interaction like how sin's gives you energy per tick

[flat sun]

guys any link for this week patch notes ?

[vale pine]

it just happened that the feedback given was

[spiral needle]

The only thing that happens if it's missing is slightly less damage which is why it was boring

[vale pine]

rupture should not do damage on subtlety

[lucid jackal]

Making rupture deal shadow damage isn't like, interaction

[vale pine]

the consequence was

[lucid jackal]

Rupture was just SND u had to apply to the target 💯

[vale pine]

rupture feeling bad to press

[spiral needle]

Yea foreverguy gets it

[lilac stag]

rupture is pointless on outlaw and pointless on sub.

[vale pine]

rupture was a maintainance specll, and you had the oppotuinity to apply it to multiple targets

thats not snd

snd is a passive that gets applied via cttc and you don't interact with or base decisions on

[warm marlin]

You had 2 reasons to actually care about pressing finishers outside dance, cdr and upkeeping rupture because it was bad to press in cds and got amped by cds

That is interaction

[tidal python]

Genuinely wouldn't mind having both rupture and recuperate back

[vale pine]

lets just assume ruptue would hit like a truck

[brisk onyx]

I also hate rupture in sub, but honestly, it just depends on whether they're willing to design it in depth. If anyone remembers: the most original bleed-related talents were concentrated in sub (vanilla wow)

[vale pine]

so you do insane cleave damage due to it

or aoe, once spread

[spiral needle]

Rupture would have been more appropriate/cooler if say doing something during dance made it tick faster or a few times for more burst

[vale pine]

damage is very much what makes or breaks the spell

[spiral needle]

but otherwise it was just a boring dot

[tidal python]

Just make it tick when you backstab or shadowstrike

[warm marlin]

Dance did make it tick harder though so it was burst

[spiral needle]

although it's definitely a strong point that missing it ain't helping sub's 2-3 target cleave weakness

[vale pine]

i think the biggest drawback is rly that people hate to apply and maintain dots

look at assassination

[tulip gorge]

they could introduce shuriken throw into the rotation

[vale pine]

and how it gets talents every time that reduce the amount of dot casts

[tulip gorge]

add some proc that makes shuriken throw do aoe damage in a line

like Zed's Q in league

[vale pine]

just seems like dots are not a fun gameplay mechanics

[brave raptor]

I miss rupture on 2-3 target fights, sub is hot garbage atm on low target count

[tulip light]

All the crown mythic killers - is there any particular reason that makes sub a better pick on this fight over assa ?

[lilac stag]

that wouldnt save us

[vale pine]

nimble change is why our cleave is worse

not rupture

[warm marlin]

Rupture is also especially interesting on council fights because you have skill expression in reapplying it before they run out

[lucid jackal]

Rupture wasn't why sub was good at low target cleave

[brisk onyx]

Multistrike in WoD

[spiral needle]

having to multi dot as a melee is what was awful

[brave raptor]

No i agree

[spiral needle]

or there are the cute fights where multiple mobs are too far for a melee to multidot

[brave raptor]

But it felt like i'm doing something

[tulip gorge]

nimble flurry was what made sub good in low target cleave in tww

[spiral needle]

while ranged arent impacte

[brisk onyx]

But they quickly abandoned Multistrike

[tidal python]

Nimble flurry was what made Sub AoE fun

[tulip gorge]

I don't like the fact that every rogue spec had bladeflurry but I also miss having nimble flurry

[vale pine]

it made hero talents diffrent

hero tlaents now play very same-y

[warm marlin]

it was legit a disproportionately strong spell in low target cleave wdym

[tulip gorge]

they should have made it capped to 4 targets imo

[lilac stag]

the more you offset our dmg in other areas (READ DOTS & Outside of Dance) the more dmg you take out of the burst of the spec, which is SUPPOSED to be it's identity

[tulip gorge]

or 3

[sonic raven]

does rotation change at all with new cloud cover?

[vale pine]

only in the opener

because we drop premed

so you strike-backstab to full cp-continue as usual

[sonic raven]

will this be updated on wowhead

[spiral needle]

looking forward to the times SS only crits 20% of the time

[tulip gorge]

damn so I can't vanish for guaranteed full combo points anymore

[brisk onyx]

How much difference would there be if I didn't drop premed?

[vale pine]

you vanish between dances

but ye, strike is good, so we want more strike casts

[tulip gorge]

surely the difference is not that big

and I can just hold vanish to cheese mechanics

right

[vale pine]

roughly 1%

[spiral needle]

is the apex logic going to be different during cloud cover buff?

[vale pine]

between premed and no premed

[lilac stag]

so @vale pine u is premed bug actually modeled in sims?

[vale pine]

oh ye, you asked earlier already

[lilac stag]

and got nothing 🙂

[vale pine]

ye, i was busy

[tulip gorge]

another bug? bruh

[vale pine]

!premed

[wicked jolt]

There is a bug that makes it so while Premeditation is active you cannot get a refund nor spawn the clone from Ancient Arts. This is not something you need to play around, as using Ancient Arts of Secret Technique is about the same value as using it on a regular Eviscerate.

[vale pine]

its not a new bug

[lilac stag]

isnt it just a yes or no?

[vale pine]

i am actually not sure, we mentioned it to koji but i couldn't find it in the git history when i took a quick look

[hazy breach]

It is not

But its also not very impactful

[lilac stag]

i see

[hazy breach]

(which is also why i havent bugged koji about it more)

[lilac stag]

this is why i was curious. messing with my gear and ptr

[vale pine]

what is mapped is subterfuge

not like we play it

🤣

[spiral needle]

With how strong SS will be under cloud cover, will we go back to the old logic of always SSing to proc AA even outside of charged combo points

[tulip gorge]

does target count for shuriken storm change?

[vale pine]

no

rotation stays almost exactly as it is

[grand galleon]

does Latest SimC work with 12.0.5 changes?

[vale pine]

yes

btu you need to put ptr=1 in expert mode to sim

or wait for the changes to be live

[grand galleon]

got it, thanks

[celest drum]

Is it needed to be max cp when i go into my 2nd dance in blades?

or is it only the first one that matters

[lilac stag]

you're still looking for max CPs since strike is delayed. you're finishing with evis

in AOE you can dance+storm

[celest drum]

okok ty

[hazy breach]

If you have guidon its technically fine to start that second dance with a strike anyway, even though it is delayed

Since the guidon provides enough leeway to offset that delay (with some extra margin too)

[fair phoenix]

its worth to take out premed to ephemeral bond before reset?

[hazy breach]

No

[fallow ingot]

How many days before blizard nerf us again when 12.0.5 hit chat ?

[sullen hare]

Under a week

[fallow ingot]

we don"t play 3sec extra dance in M+ tho ?

[dusky yacht]

I was wondering, what would be a decent crit % to aim for in .5? I feel like Mastery is still gonna be decent after a certain crit % no?

[fallow ingot]

dunno we will sim it i guess

maybe use crit flask over mastery

[lucid jackal]

Probably not at all? Rogues not even close to being in a spot where a 5% Nerf moves the needle much

[fallow ingot]

Don't trust blizzard my friend

[lucid jackal]

Ik it's a joke but like, it's not gonna happen

They might change how phased stacking works in the 12.1 patch or something but like, almost 0 world they Nerf sub anyway

[fallow ingot]

anyone got the issue ?

[mint swift]

Bro

[lucid jackal]

So it's not 12.0.5 so it probably can't pull new cloud cover if I had to guess

[mint swift]

the patch isn't out yet

XD

[vale pine]

we are phasing in 12.1

nice

[fallow ingot]

ST string works 😄

[mint swift]

Mans trying to get the cloud cover from the future

[fair phoenix]

i dont think its worth since we receive 25% extra dmg on burst window

so we can maxime with voidtouched

[fallow ingot]

bro its alredy in the game

[vale pine]

if its from the pins, these are for the next patch

so need to wait a few days for them to work

(or login on ptr)

[fallow ingot]

yeah but im confused, the ST one works 😄

[vale pine]

🪄

[fallow ingot]

when rogue discord said we need 700 haste with guidon

[alpine wraith]

big

[vale pine]

perfect

clean 700

[fallow ingot]

was checking yesterday

i laughed lmao

like what are the odds

[raw wadi]

!powder

🙁

[vale osprey]

Beautiful stat spread, now on reset, reverse it

[raw wadi]

how large is the cloud cover? how many yards diameter

[mortal snow]

If you put on the current version in game, you can use distract to test and see

Its pretty large

[lucid jackal]

It's massive

Smoke bomb on the right is cloud cover

[wheat elk]

can you extend it by goin inside it in the last second

[lucid jackal]

Yes

[lucid jackal]

You can also just extend it by sitting in it the whole time

[tulip gorge]

so other people are able to see it

just hope tanks are not going to move out of it

[vagrant fossil]

I can't wait for it to work like poison bomb and just make all ground effects invisible

Then they change it so only the rogue can see it

[tulip gorge]

unholy's defile in dragonflight

I died so many times because of that crap

[fallow ingot]

Other ppl see it or not ?

[bright briar]

can someone hook me up with some macros

[torn tide]

holy

[bright briar]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[lucid jackal]

They can yes

[torn tide]

will anything change in terms of how we play or the rotation after this 12.0.5 thing

[shrewd lantern]

you wont have premed

so your opener has a few backstabs

[cursive bear]

and more crit right ?

[torn tide]

good riddance lol, that bug will never be fixed

[fallow glade]

can't wait to terrorize the raid, we are running 2 rogues

[bronze turret]

That’s actually fucked

People Will complain so much about the visual they will destroy the talent for that reason

Mark my words

[shrewd lantern]

is it that much worse than shit like remorseless winter

[tulip gorge]

they will destroy the talent just because rogue will do damage

[bronze turret]

Nah

Rogue won’t do top tier dmg either way

[shrewd lantern]

i mean anyone smart knew once they gutted nimble that sub would suck at 2-3t again

we always did pre trickster

[bronze turret]

Ye

And we accepted that weakness because we did other things

Not every spec should be good at everything

Assa has a hard time target swapping and has a slow-ish buildup

Outlaw got 0 burst

Sub can’t do good cleave dmg, all fine

[shrewd lantern]

still funny they had to nerf bladeflurry when buffing outlaw's st

"nope you cant have that"

[graceful rock]

the raid in lura p2

[bronze turret]

They will have to remove the visual for others

If not on launch the few days after launch

I don’t think a lot of people play with 0 effects from other players

[shrewd lantern]

gonna wait for the pvp complaints too

since it has the same visual as smokebomb

[bronze turret]

If our burst is a lot better then that alone is a reason for pvpers to complain

[shrewd lantern]

yeah they hit the spec 2-3x

[meager canopy]

So, we're going to play Critical Strike > Haste >= Mastery >> Versatility in the next patch, right? I just saw that on WoW Heads. Does anyone have the data?

[bronze turret]

I swear this ability won’t see the light of day for more than a few weeks if even that

The community will whine their asses off

[shrewd lantern]

reducing dr reset time to 20s the same time dance cd was reduced to 20

was certainly a choice they didnt think through

[dry flame]

zero in shambles he can't play smoke spec

[hazy breach]

Same as now. Get your haste breakpoint then fill the rest with crit+mastery

[bronze turret]

Also funny they finally fix DS and then kneecap it

[solemn patrol]

is sub able to use a slow offhand?

[placid blade]

no

[solemn patrol]

rip

[lucid jackal]

Or they will just make it so it has reduced visuals for other people like defile?

[placid blade]

have to use dagger because the sht procs aren't normalized so faster offhand gets you more

[alpine wraith]

i wonder are we apexxmaxing again in blades

now that strike trucks moire

[lucid jackal]

Why would they destroy the talent because of visuals

[dry flame]

Im excited to be smoking it up on Wed

[placid blade]

ha yeah going to have to break some habits

[lucid jackal]

U guys are worse than balance druids sometimes

[lilac stag]

accurate

Like tettles had a baby

[fleet sluice]

How are we feeling about Vanguard now with the incoming changes? Is Sin still the play?

[lucid jackal]

Still unpalayble for rogue

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/it's-dooming-time-dr-doom-lex-luthor-death-battle-weezer-gif-18387460929386871868

[lucid jackal]

Outlaw is probably the best spec for the fight now

[hazy breach]

Its a "who cares were useless anyway" angle

[fleet sluice]

Just trying to be irrelevantly relevant

[delicate gulch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lucid jackal]

Yes

[vale pine]

lets go

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1035163024480276640/1495101632759730388/puzzle_box_1.gif

[lilac stag]

[dusky yacht]

I said Ooooooooooh come on baby turn the lights off

https://giphy.com/gifs/jon-hamm-yourfriendsandneighbors-your-friends-and-neighbors-GhdvN4hYZikziWCs6R

Meanwhile, me, locked out of my mythic instance lock and forced to leave prog raid because I server transferred but didn't get warning

2009

[vale pine]

haha ye

[vale pine]

we still haven't seen gaze drop

XD

[dusky yacht]

Maybe you're the faithful..

[sharp peak]

we finally had a myth gaze drop this week and it was given to a resto druid.

[vale pine]

well roughly 20 of our 30 raid members need it

so chances of me getting it is 0

even if it drops

[viscid barn]

We just had 1 Mythic gaze finally drop

[vale pine]

(so should at least mean 12 in mythic need it)

[viscid barn]

It did not go to me

[dry flame]

https://tenor.com/view/доббисвободен-добби-harry-potter-dobby-the-elf-freedom-gif-16615829

[dry flame]

Is that like... Sabotage? Why are you gearing healers over dps?

[torpid stump]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Light's Potential
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[sharp peak]

it was hard to watch. I have a champ version so I wasn't expecting it tbh, but to see it go to resto over all our dps that still weren't lucky to get any version. There was a mutiny brewing in side chats about people threatening to leave.

[dry flame]

I don't really blame them, it's like legit bricking progress

Whats next? Tank gearing prio

That's crazy, sorry to hear

[lilac stag]

They give someone on LC a blowie? Or just a lot of gold?

[bronze turret]

because stuff in wow survives when nobody talks aboutit

[sharp peak]

The reason given to another guildie was "they haven't gotten any piece through prog yet"

but yikes

probably not the piece to give someone random lol

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/h-o-l-y-s-h-i-t-boom-yes-oh-yes-yep-gif-15997893301937763341

[lilac stag]

so a blowie

[sharp peak]

hahaha

i hope it was good

[dry flame]

That's crazy. Why would even the resto want to take it. Everyone in the guild would be shitting on him

It's like, ruining potentially the social dinamic for a non-factor upgrade that slows prog down

[mint swift]

True

[next pulsar]

Guys, what means "TLDR: New passive haste breakpoints, still AFTER oils & flask.
:Trickster:Trickster with Guidon - Aim for ~700 haste (same as before)." from pins?

i should have 700 only from gear?

[lucid jackal]

Did defile get removed from the game because it showed on other ppl's screens

[next pulsar]

"AFTER oils & flask." part confuses me

[weary tree]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[dry plank]

No

[sullen hare]

"Gear + haste flask + oils should put you at just over 700 haste" is what that means

[vale pine]

basically means you want 700 raid buffed

[bronze turret]

core ability or hero talent

[lilac stag]

Hunters have no room to talk.

[gentle badge]

is the proc from the crown neck worth anything, or do we want it only for stats?

[hazy breach]

its like 0.3-0.4% on ST

[lilac stag]

It’s a nice bonus in ST

[hazy breach]

So quite mid, but its free

[mint swift]

Survival is at least worst than boomkiun

[restive hollow]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[ripe flame]

any beloren gamers, when the raid calls for a dps stop just before p1 ends, thoughts on dancing but not really doing anything else to store some supercharged cps for egg?

[hazy breach]

Yerp

[ripe flame]

[lucid jackal]

Wdym

[fast moat]

we play the new talent tree pinned only after wednesday?

[gilded thistle]

how the fuck do you parse on crown

I don't get it

I'm down to like 90k by the last phase

how are people pulling 160k in top 100

[lilac stag]

are you saving sc stacks?

[gilded thistle]

idk what that means so probably not

[lilac stag]

Super Charger combo points

You literally do nothing in intermissions. Hit dance and build stacks.

[gilded thistle]

oh

damn

true

I had not considered this

[small sleet]

if you're talking about heroic, a lot of it will come down to abusing the pad blobs + damage amp on the minibosses in first phase, and riding that dps the rest of the fight

[oblique spade]

Do we do this on all fights outside of ST windows if we have a free dance?

just build SC CP for ST?

[gilded thistle]

I had a feeling it had something to do with first phase

and yeah I meant heroic

[hazy breach]

If theres other fights where you stand afk yes

But you would much rather hit the boss with a dance than save supercharger stacks for later

[oblique spade]

yeah cool was just making sure i hadnt missed something

thanks

[lilac stag]

Just when you can hit anything and you’re going to cap on 2 charges.

[tight fjord]

Are we anticipating bigger burst and/or overall with the cloud cover talent change?

[dusky yacht]

[tight fjord]

Oh mb

Finally

[vale pine]

yes, after reset

[vale warren]

Is it possible to do some sims for the upcoming changes now?

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

Add ptr=1 to expert mode

[rancid sierra]

The 125k sim in the above !fuu thing is for tuesday changes yeah?

[fallow ingot]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[weary tree]

Hm having a harder time fitting second ST inside blade window

On deathstalker

[vale pine]

thats because of the cdr node on trickster

secret cd is longer on deathstalker

[hazy breach]

Yeah thats why you want 1100 haste

[cunning acorn]

why does the apex optimization only goes for supercharged combo points, not every time?

[lucid jackal]

The real answer is that it just doesn't Sim out to being more damage

[cunning acorn]

i feel like its also less than 50% that apex talent is not up after dance+st oepner.

[vale pine]

because its a trade off

[fast moat]

is outlaw really gonna be better for raids than sub? we were already decent imo and got a buff aswell, idk kinda skeptical about the hype for outlaw

[rancid sierra]

Sort of new to sub - what is the point of this shit? Why would this ever be good?

[vestal relic]

well outlaw usualy suck

[warm marlin]

I think you've fully understood it already

[hazy breach]

It wont

[rancid sierra]

lol

[vale pine]

outlaw gets a noticable buff, but their damage profile is still worse

so it depends on the encounter

[alpine wraith]

goremaw used to do triple the dmg but it was also kinda free to get

[vale pine]

e.g. subtlety is the best spec for beloren

[vestal relic]

and outlaw willl be good probably better on some bosses so its hype

[blissful ivy]

What hype for outlaw?? They bring back cracksshot???

[weary tree]

got 1045 atm

[weary tree]

so with the 1100 haste it would work?

[vale pine]

but the last boss does not need specific damage spread

[vale pine]

should work ye

[weary tree]

Guess the last 50 haste makes a difference then

[vale pine]

so for the last boss, you might play outlaw

[visual lark]

if i would have to prog as outlaw i would reroll tbh

[vale pine]

m+ i am not 100% sure

[visual lark]

glad other specs are viable

[vale pine]

overall damage is worth something

[hazy breach]

Do you not have guidon

[weary tree]

I do

[hazy breach]

Then there should be no issues

[weary tree]

I feel like it keeps being the last gcd

idk

Gonna recraft for the last 50 haste and see

[maiden bronze]

Is Raidbots updated for 12.0.5 already?

[hazy breach]

no

[alpine wraith]

if you do it on mimiron yes but not the normal one

[weary tree]

idk how i'm not getting it. I had it 1 pull where ST was easily inside but otherwise like this almost impossible

[vital flax]

does that same logic apply to bp/shuriken

[dreamy stump]

hello guys,
i see ppl switching from veiltouched/finality in m+, whats the difference and what do we chose preferably ?

[placid crown]

bruh my akari's soul

[graceful rock]

Throw back to the time I didn’t have a frost DK on my nexus king platform

And the logger was on the other platform