subtlety

[vagrant fulcrum]

We’re good for st tbf

[tribal blade]

i just hate aug lol

i was like 50 points ahead of title during S2 DF when they were introduced

[fleet wharf]

but they were good for like 4 seasons after that, no?

[tribal blade]

then immediately fell behind because aug created god comp

then yeah they were OP for 3-4 seasons in a row

and you literally could not run a key without an aug

they brought an INSANE amount of power

[fleet wharf]

yea, giving them survivability boost for the whole group was not a good idea

[tribal blade]

huge survivability and dps

your healer healed for more

your tank was tankier

your dps did more dmg

they brought a ton of cc

[keen dome]

Imagine if we still had AoE blind for L'ura

[tribal blade]

utility

[fleet wharf]

the healer and tank buffs were the issue, no?

[tribal blade]

aoe soothe

wyrnstone stuff

rescue skips

[fleet wharf]

bro, the more we talk about other classes, more pissed I get cuz our shiv is so dogshit compared to what modern classes/reworks get

[tribal blade]

it's actually crazy how little rogue brings

[fleet wharf]

or the worthless shroud that gets countered cuz EVERY PACK HAS TRUESIGHT

[vagrant fulcrum]

It’s the craziest utility power creep

[tribal blade]

you know on raging weeks

if the pull was big enough

[vagrant fulcrum]

All ours became worthless

[tribal blade]

when everything enraged

[vagrant fulcrum]

And everyone else got new shit over the years

[tribal blade]

an aug would aoe soothe

and it would come off cd insta

[fleet wharf]

we gave our util to DH, we good fam

[tribal blade]

because there was a talent that it cdr'd with how many targets you soothed

[vagrant fulcrum]

[vagrant fulcrum]

I remember using it, created op cc loops too

With so many casts of roar

[tribal blade]

oh yeah i forgot about that

remember when vdh was a insanely busted

you would combo vdh silence sigil and stuff with roar iirc

vdh would be solo ccing pulls for the first 40 seconds

[vagrant fulcrum]

Ye

[spiral pewter]

hey guyz, can anyone give me reasonable idea for removing our aoe blind meanwhile every other class nearly has aoe stuns? its because we are too op in keys or raid or pvp?

[keen dome]

Who knows. We're getting it back in 12.0.5

[vagrant fulcrum]

I have a friend who was a v talented vdh, we always got to pull the triple full room pull before the tree boss

[fleet wharf]

aoe blind broke up with us, but wants to get back together in .5

[vagrant fulcrum]

He solo ccd it with sigils

It was insane

[tribal blade]

in halls?

wait azure vault

[vagrant fulcrum]

Everbloom

Xd

[tribal blade]

ahhhh yeah

[vagrant fulcrum]

The WHOLE room

People pulled it in thirds usually

[tribal blade]

best part about that season was tanks fucking up those pulls

you couldn't stun all those mobs at the same time

or else they synced their autos

and would 100-0 the tank in 1 global lol

[vagrant fulcrum]

I just played with my friends who are insane at tank

[tribal blade]

i watched that happen so manh times in everbloom

[vagrant fulcrum]

You can avoid dogshit tank life if you stop pugging

[tribal blade]

very true

OR you play with a set tank who's not good

and then suffer

like i did

(he eventually gave up and i got title without him)

[vagrant fulcrum]

Jestermaxxing

[keen dome]

But what if I want to BE the dogshit tank

[tribal blade]

playing with a bad vdh back then was so bad

they'd not cycle their stuff proprely

[vagrant fulcrum]

[tribal blade]

then have 0 parry and get deleted

[keen dome]

They leap in. They are ready. They are dead.

[tribal blade]

LOL that too

leap in without spikes rolling

get insta deleted

[keen dome]

Leap in. Land. Mob behind them. Dead.

[spiral pewter]

i mean ive literally have 0 hope for rogues even tho im 15 years rogue player, for somewhat reason we always have to play 1 side - , as u see nowadays those dh`s rets meanwhile all of them has a meaning full something for party, u can see other hand at pvp, mages hunters can do ATLEAST same amount damage but most of the time even more, but they prefer to nerf rogue somehow, if u check raid again many other class can do way better then our 100 parse runs, tbh im gonna keep playing with my rogue but ive no more nerves to watch that my lovely class get underhand each every expans'on

[keen dome]

We survived the Zul incident.

We can survive anything.

[zenith hollow]

How do I sim the different races?

[vale pine]

good morning lovely people

[tribal blade]

welcome to 0 sub tuning 😉

[zenith hollow]

🌞

[vale pine]

it is what it is

[tribal blade]

it is what it is

[vale pine]

in the end yes

i am happy mythic+ is somewhat okay for rogue

[tribal blade]

that is good

[vale pine]

for raid, this tier makes a very good argument to give us a strong rai buff

[fleet wharf]

Idk, I wish we had more burst and longer/lower lulls

[tribal blade]

but a spec's performance in keys this early in a season is irrelevant

raid performance is relevant

[fleet wharf]

How do you guys feel about the 20 sec cadence in keys?

[tribal blade]

i was just hoping they would tune nimble up and possibly bring down BP to compensate

[fleet wharf]

illegal, more BP buffs

[vale pine]

bp does not need a nerf

[keen dome]

It's not lovely. They changed the charges at work by one penny so now it's all awkward numbers. It's HELL.

[spiral pewter]

im also ok with keys but atleast give us back aoe blind or some handfull utility

[tribal blade]

nah sub will become bonkers in keys lol

[tribal blade]

aoe blind is coming back in .5

[fleet wharf]

mostly a shitpost where the only changes we'd ever get were BP buffs last expansion

[tribal blade]

yeah sad

[spiral pewter]

o wasnt know thats niceee

[vale pine]

why would you do that

[vale pine]

we get it back in .5

[keen dome]

Inflation

One of the charges has gone from £1.10 + 35p to £1.13 + 49p

[dry flame]

yeah, as of this morning i've played all 3 specs in 11-12s and its nice
(still can't get into raid pugs like mythic dreamrift)

[idle flint]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/rogue-buffs-and-tank-tuning-incoming-upcoming-class-tuning-on-april-7th-381105 Will Subtlety Rogue still be the main specialization after these hotfixes, considering the buffs to Assassination?

[fleet wharf]

the problem is being brought to fights in the first place mate

[dry flame]

Class problems, not spec problems

[vale pine]

probably not

we will see

[spiral pewter]

i mean imagine a RET PALA or rogue:p ret pala bring in party blaster dps bop damage reduction heal cleanse freedom and many other like lay, who need rogue in key:p

[fleet wharf]

i mean ret pala right now is us but with brez, sac, bubble, and other shit

[vale pine]

yep

we are now a worse ret

[spiral pewter]

also aoe blind stun

[tribal blade]

you guys are forgetting the most important thing, ret brings bres

[tribal vortex]

when have you seen a ret pala do all these things though

[fleet wharf]

i included it reeee

[tribal blade]

bres and lust are 2 mandatory things for keys

[tribal vortex]

bres is the only thing out of all this being used

[civic lava]

Right now we don't have aoe blind

[vale pine]

ret also does not need a macro to fit every gcd

[spiral pewter]

ret does it

[tribal blade]

oh yeha you did nice

[spiral pewter]

we dont have:D

[vale pine]

[fleet wharf]

tbf even with aoe blind, I'd still take ret over rogues rn

[lime wigeon]

I do feel that Deepening Shadows is interesting. But would probably benefit gameplay wise from being less granular, even if it increases hard breakpoints

[spiral pewter]

ret has the aoe blind xD

[vale pine]

my suggestion would be to just round it to the next natural number

[fleet wharf]

my point is that's like so far down the list of prio it's kind of pointless

[vale pine]

which would fix the "you need to use a macro" problem

[lime wigeon]

Yeah, or maybe even half number

[vale pine]

think half is too granular

[lime wigeon]

The issue is that SD is so low duration buff

[vale pine]

because of the bugs around longer gcds

[fleet wharf]

idk why did blizz have to shove haste down our throats

[vale pine]

coup de grace still has 1.2 sec gcd

[tribal blade]

it was an issue with rogue, it's weird when you have 1 completely dead stat

well completely dead for sub

[fleet wharf]

but it made gearing easier for us, no? we take the verse pieces no one else wants

[spiral pewter]

totally indeed and with new changes we cant make proper eviscrate cleave prio target damage anyway, due to last changes

[fleet wharf]

now I need to fight for the most popular pieces

and it sucks

[tribal blade]

in some ways yeah

[lime wigeon]

We need to have something for haste. Haste is the "fun stat" for blizzard, that they add for all celebratory events.
It should make the specs *feel *different when BL is up. Rather than just number is higher

[tribal blade]

but it also meant we couldn't equip a lot of bis special items like necks or rings because they always had haste

[fleet wharf]

do you have alleria's neck yet prophet?

[tribal blade]

like we wouldn't be able to equip a single special raid item this season

[tribal blade]

i had it in vault

but took tier gloves

[fleet wharf]

yea, I see that's kind of a fair point

[tribal blade]

i did a sim accounting for haste and it simmed crazy good, but rylld said it's sim bait

[civic lava]

I understand that 4p is prio. But this is still painful

[keen dome]

Haste should give Movespeed. no, this won't solve anything. But it'd be funny.

[tribal blade]

nah i already had 4pc

bingus said it's sim bait and i trust him

[civic lava]

It's a simbait in raid ? in dungeonslice i can see how

[keen dome]

I have it and the proc is worthless

[fleet wharf]

when I do sims for upgrades, the neck is not showing up as an upgrade at all for me

[civic lava]

but patchwerk ?

[fleet wharf]

very interesting, def good to know

[tribal blade]

he looked through logs of his spriest who had it and he said it's not doing nearly as much as sims suggest it would

[keen dome]

It does like, 200k damage max in a +13 key or like, 100k on a boss maybe.

Get the neck for crest saving / stats.

[lime wigeon]

I mean I would think that to be thematic for us. Could make Fleet footed be 100% of base haste or something

[keen dome]

Yeeeees

[tribal blade]

you need to account for haste, the neck has a buttload of haste

[fleet wharf]

i mean that's funny and all, but they made speed a tert

[tribal blade]

likely it's putting you over haste breakpoint

[civic lava]

Can't even trust sim no more, time to roll a monk and drink

[keen dome]

Set rings own though. Love those. They did over 1% in the +13 I did

Neck + set rings = Haste done

[fleet wharf]

so you need to either have pieces ready or run a custom sim right?

[tribal blade]

the sim will not want that neck if you're going way over breakpoint

[tribal blade]

yeah that's what i did

it put me +100 over the haste i needed

[civic lava]

Is there a way to force sims to account for a certain quantity of haste ?

[tribal blade]

so i did a custom sim and it went from +0.6% to +1.6%

[fleet wharf]

that's honestly just as annoying though cuz there are classes that just go more haste=brrrrr and it's the end of the story

we need to do other stupid things to even properly sim if a piece is good

[tribal blade]

you kinda have to just change pieces with what you have

[plush pilot]

is it worth replacing my champ track trink with timewarped?

[tribal blade]

in bags

[fleet wharf]

sim yourself

[lime wigeon]

About being put over haste cap.
Every time I play MT it feels so good to be 5% above haste cap. Gets so much more lenient

[fleet wharf]

prolly better than oozing vestige is my guess?

[lime wigeon]

Since MT gives 5% haste

[tribal blade]

yeah i love being over

[vagrant fulcrum]

Yes

[tribal blade]

i try to always sit ~700

or over

[fleet wharf]

I'm sitting at like 710 ish how much u guys going over by?

[tribal blade]

feels much more forgiving

my general aim is to not being over ~720 or so

but that's complete feelycraft

[fleet wharf]

yea, that sounds fair. Kind of annoying though cuz sometimes it's not so easy to land exactly where you want to

[tribal blade]

yeah it's a nightmare

you need to accrue a ton of gear from keys

[lime wigeon]

Will get a bit easier with more sockets

[civic lava]

Wait are you not playing NE ? you try to go for 700 haste ? how much %haste do you have in raid ? 20 ? @tribal blade

[tribal blade]

so true

[dry flame]

Atm, with oils my haste is over my mastery (with mastery flask), so my food buff bricks :/

[fleet wharf]

684 is the exact figure, we recommend around 700 is what I gathered from discussions

[tribal blade]

i am nelf, but the nelf racial doesn't affect deepening

already tested a while back

kinda sad

[civic lava]

I'll be damned

[tribal blade]

yeah it blows

would be cool if it did

but it does help with more snd and apex proccing

[fleet wharf]

amazing

[civic lava]

Wait does raidbots account for the fact that NE racial does not help with deepening ?

[fleet wharf]

we are celebrating a stat not being worthless

wooooo

[tribal blade]

i assume so

no idea tbh

[lime wigeon]

And tbh, I wonder if it's not preferable aim for like 550 and just use haste flask. Makes you better in MT since you can swap flask and in just general content. But sounds cba :p

[idle flint]

I have asked a question, worms.

[tribal blade]

mm yeah could be the play actually

[civic lava]

@vale pine Does raidbots account for NE racial not helping with deepening ?

[vagrant fulcrum]

Good point honestly

[fleet wharf]

MT is what again?

[tribal blade]

magister's terrace

there's the book on the ground after 2nd pull

in the room you sneak around

gives you 5% haste

fun fact my guildies ran a 14 MT today and the book didn't spawn insta, and the time they ate up waiting for it was what they needed to time the key

in my head i was like "should have done more dps 5head"

[woeful wren]

afaik any % haste doesn't effect deepening, only raw +haste stat

[tribal blade]

yeah they had to be very careful about it

getting insane dance lengths could have been a thing had they not

[woeful wren]

I mean if it did troll + lust would be completely broken

[olive canyon]

Damn we did get buffs just not to sub

[tribal blade]

pop lust- 15 second dance

massive

[woeful wren]

TFD also has a better scaling with it too

so u could probably hit a 20 sec dance on ur first

[lime wigeon]

There's some truly extreme haste buffs in game during some celebratory events. At some point the length of SD compared to the CD of SecTech gets kind of insane

[vale pine]

you can input day of time on raidbots to change the passive stat gain

[stoic pawn]

Hi @vale pine
Are there known bugs for DS mark?
When I first shadowstrike from stealth I dont get mark.
And sometimes I dont get any mark no matter what and I need to change to trickster and then to deathstalker again

[jovial ginkgo]

the very little sub was in race was too much for blizz

[neat egret]

no sub buffs

[clear osprey]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

@vale pine do you know what classes have funnel currently

i think enh does but that might be old knowledge

[brisk onyx]

ret does now

[short radish]

[brisk onyx]

the holy thief stole many of our abilities

[plain cradle]

and they burst just as hard

[final gulch]

no sub buffs bro 😔

after sitting exile 😔 😔 😔

[steel zinc]

Wow insane tuning 1-3%

These changes look like they have 0 clue what to do

[final gulch]

yea, looks a lot like the last 2 aura buffs ^_^

[fallow glade]

[brisk onyx]

hope they stop using ai to develope rogue

[fallow glade]

AI would give buffs

[final gulch]

i think its just a bit embarrassing for them to have a triple dps spec that has unplayable 3 target cleave in every spec

[steel zinc]

Ai would give buffs

[final gulch]

like how is that even possible lol

[brisk onyx]

no ai illusion has the m0 week data

[vale pine]

mark has been a pain to use efficiently

[steel zinc]

This is my issue. My first reaction to Paladin fight was cool outlaw fight let's get ready just to notice that all 3 rogue specs are ass on that fight

[final gulch]

no other triple dps spec in the game would ever run into this issue

we are truly blizzards least favorite

[steel zinc]

100%

[hallow mortar]

there was times when hunter was unplayble/not played

[steel zinc]

Imagine a race or a situation where you have only one mage

[final gulch]

what tier O_O

[steel zinc]

Mage main character of wow

[hallow mortar]

it was not that long ago when hunter got raid buff becasue of that

[fallow glade]

hey, at least i can do loremaster while the team progresses paladins.

[final gulch]

i feel like either bm or mm have been top 5 basically every tier

i may be wrong tho

[vale pine]

not sure, rogue has some amount of it

would be inetressting to know tho

towards the tuning changes

it is weird that sin and outlaw recive buffs

[tribal blade]

the fact that outlaw of all specs wasn't good on paladins was a huge shock

[vale pine]

while all 3 specs perform so similar

but it is what it is

[steel zinc]

All 3 specs have 0 decent cleave

[vale pine]

yes

sub is the worse tho

[steel zinc]

From tww where we had very good cleave

[vale pine]

and its not getting buffed

[hallow mortar]

true but beside paladins everyone play sub

[tribal blade]

ever since we lost TWW nimble sub is complete dumpster cleave

[hallow mortar]

they see two spec not played = buff

[vale pine]

llike

[steel zinc]

Idm sub having bad cleave if a other spec has good cleave

[vale pine]

for sure, sub does not need a cleave buff

being dead last on paladins

[steel zinc]

Yeah I get that just if I spec outlaw on paladin and do less then sub I cba

[vale pine]

but the tuning changes fallow a common pattern we saw in tww/df

[short radish]

@tribal blade added another 300 words

[vale pine]

so its expected

[short radish]

idk by the end of this its going to be a fuckign 2k essay

[tribal blade]

lol hell yeah

[final gulch]

sin has been pretty equal to sub this tier so far so its weird they buffed sin and not sub yea

[tribal blade]

can't wait to read this manifesto

[vale pine]

yep

[final gulch]

sin is arguable better on a lot of fights bc of ethical dmg

[vale pine]

i mean that happens ever tier ^^

[steel zinc]

If they don't make one rogue spec cleave god like outlaw used to be get used to being more bench on council rights

[vale pine]

sub is just usually better early

[hallow mortar]

why they pulled rogues off phoenix boss? i remember casting talked about how cloak is so back 😄

[vale pine]

its just this tier all 3 are the same

[chrome palm]

Sin is only good on paladins

[tribal blade]

not enough dmg

[chrome palm]

Useless on every other fight

[steel zinc]

Aug evoker stuff

[steel zinc]

Actually yes and no

[tribal blade]

sub can't blades the egg phase

[hallow mortar]

atleast we play last boss, for now 😄

[final gulch]

rn sin is better for

Imperator
Nexus king
Dragons
Paladins
50/50 for chimera imo

[chrome palm]

They took away sub burst so gg

[final gulch]

and they buff sin and leave sub :D

[chrome palm]

No more egg fun

[vale pine]

yep

[final gulch]

sub has more overall dmg on those fights but its unethical dmg, sin wins on boss dmg on those fights

[chrome palm]

The tuning to other rogue specs has zero effect on sub

You won’t play them

Still

[hallow mortar]

sub was broken on phoenix on ptr, but that was back than when we have cleave 😄

[steel zinc]

Idk things need to die adds too

[vale pine]

a lot of subtlety damage is pad

i am sure it looks noticably worse

if you remove the damage on orbs on dragons and simialr

[chrome palm]

IMO you lose too much damage padding

[limpid sage]

Still so weird to me that they nerfed flurry instead of just hitting black powder harder

[chrome palm]

The cleave is so awful outside of dragons the best way to get good damage is staying on boss

Imo

[vale pine]

idk, it felt fairly easy to pad on dragons and the one boss raid

outside of it, not so much

[chrome palm]

Idk I haven’t pulled dragons yet

[tribal blade]

yeah dratnos said it best in his vid "they nerfed flurry but sub's cleave was already not great so kinda confusing"

[vale pine]

neverless, we are still lovely

[chrome palm]

Lovely is an interesting choice

[final gulch]

ye i do wish we still had more cleave from nimble flurry.

but i do also understand the nerfs because we kind of took outlaws identity

[hallow mortar]

dragons is pad boss but you dont do that bad dragon dmg, and you do lot on intermission add which is important

[fallow glade]

we are all positive non doomer players 🗣️ 🔥 💯

[short radish]

holy shit what dratnos making a correct statement about rogue?

[tribal blade]

lol yup

[short radish]

surprised he didn't say somehting about funnel on dragon boss

[tribal blade]

he's usually not into saying negative things, so the fact he actually said that shows how true it is

[chrome palm]

It’s obvious sub got nerfed for m0 damage

[final gulch]

100%

[chrome palm]

Which is just a joke

[hallow mortar]

thats must meme

[tribal blade]

tuning because of M0 is insantiy

[hallow mortar]

be*

[tribal blade]

so crazy

[chrome palm]

-15% aoe

In the aoe raid

Sounds good

Oh wait you’re last on every aoe metric

[tribal blade]

NO WAY A SPEC THAT DOES INSTANT DMG IS BROKEN IN CONTENT WHERE EVERYTHING DIES IN 10 SECONdS?!

[chrome palm]

Gg

[tribal blade]

mind blown

[short radish]

they do this every fucking time to sub

supposed to be @tribal blade but w/e

[chrome palm]

And the other specs

[short radish]

replied to wrong thing

ecks dee

[torn tide]

man its sad that sub got no buffs

[tribal blade]

heehee

[chrome palm]

Sin and outlaw are just a total joke

[short radish]

i mean i dont htink anyone of us here was expecting buffs

our single target is not atrocius

[final gulch]

maybe its a delete the discord angle

it worked for the rets

[short radish]

our full aoe is decent

[final gulch]

:>

[short radish]

the problem is that half the raid is cleave

or burst

and we do none of t hat

[tribal blade]

when sub is tied to doing cleave dmg by genning CPs by storm

[chrome palm]

You play sub because it’s the spec that does consistent st, that’s the only positive of it

[tribal blade]

we'll never be good

[short radish]

like our ST in M+ against bosses is good

we're also doing strong damage every pack in aoe

[hallow mortar]

tbh this tier isnt bad for rogue as long you are not in one of those guild which strictly follow RWF comp in fight for their HOF spot,when they killing raid one month later

[short radish]

its not unga bunga 1.2mill dps UHDK but yaknow

[tribal blade]

actually we could have good cleave if they increased our energy pool possibly

[short radish]

theyre a hero class

[chrome palm]

If you stack the appropriate raid buffs*

[tribal blade]

and reduced storm energy cost

it would increase out of dance dmg which is not a huge amount, but it would help

[short radish]

careful, this is getting really close to sounding like funnel talk to me

and we can't have that

[tribal blade]

AND BRING BACK COMBO

[short radish]

man imagine if we had combo with flurry

[chrome palm]

Sub does ok damage in m+ when you build the entire comp around buffing a mid dps that brings literally nothing to the group

[short radish]

how insane would that be

[chrome palm]

That is how the game is balanced

[final gulch]

the issue is every spec is middle or below for dmg, and straight up unplayable paladins.

you will never see this for a triple dps spec class.

[short radish]

yeah but when you build that comp we absolutely blast

[short radish]

triple melee dps spec class*

all the triple melee dps spec classes suck on that fight

[chrome palm]

Melee as a whole

[tribal blade]

i like this

[chrome palm]

Are horrid

Rn

[short radish]

(that was a joke because we are the only pure melee dps spec in the game)

yes this is going in the manifisto @tribal blade

that no one will read

[hallow mortar]

its not unplayable on paladins, there is many guild which killed paladins with rogue already, they prefer little bit of DR in cost couple of sec longer fight.

[short radish]

because it's going to be a fucking thesis by the end of it

[tribal blade]

lol nice

[chrome palm]

I just progged alleria and it’s so melee unfriendly

[final gulch]

have u seen the numbers.......

[hallow mortar]

i did

[chrome palm]

I do p2 and get 3 mechanics in a row, and have to afk during dance each time

[short radish]

i've said this a few times but i figure i'll mention again.

Melee tuned raid = evenish split ranged melee
Ranged tuned raid = 3 melee (only for raid buffs)

[chrome palm]

And lose infinite damage, while a caster just keeps casting

[hazy lichen]

are we gonna get a new raid buff

[final gulch]

its killable but an average player on almost any other class will do ~20%+ more damage than a rogue on any spec playing at the 95th percentile.

that just isn't okay imo

so why bring a rogue

[fallow glade]

bring a rogue to paladins, i promise it's not trolling

[chrome palm]

We are seeing 1 melee comps

[hallow mortar]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/G6fTYLvcgBCpPjxz?fight=31&type=damage-done its not that bad

[warm vale]

guys shouldnt haste be like 17% but like 700 smthn why is it 500 for me im so ocnfused

[chrome palm]

We literally had a super melee unfriendly council boss last tier

[fallow glade]

It's not that bad.

[chrome palm]

And instead of learning from that, blizzard makes that THE WHOLE TIER

[short radish]

our guild is contemplating 0 melee paladins

[hallow mortar]

yeah he did about same dmg as other 6 dps

[fallow glade]

he got a 100 and lost to a gray parse

[hallow mortar]

and they still killed boss

[fallow glade]

[dreamy badger]

The most funny thing is that the only melee being played is the one "without a raid buff"

[final gulch]

so is the boss killable with 5 rogues

i think you're missing the point here unfortunately

rogues simply dont carry their weight for the fight

so why bring them

you can swap them out with anyone with a pulse and get more damage

[chrome palm]

They make dh ranged and give survival dagger drops, presumably so you can run 2 less melee

What is their problem

[warm vale]

someone pls help w this

[hallow mortar]

becasue some guilds still considering DR as raid buff

so they still bring them

[chrome palm]

It does something for sure

[fallow glade]

looking at these made me realize shaman really sucks for paladins too sheesh

[hallow mortar]

like 15 guilds of out TOP50 still played rogue for paladin for some reason

[tribal blade]

looks like a caster meta

[chrome palm]

Damage check did not exist

So you just punish yourself for not using a rogue

6 heal fight like

Shit is awful

[hallow mortar]

yes i talk with some of RL of ex top 10 guild why they played rogue and ´he said dmg check isnt there aynmore and he make fight easier

[hazy lichen]

guys are we gonna get a new raid buff

[final gulch]

8 rogues have killed paladins. maybe 10 max if you include private logs (but i doubt any guilds that private log have a rogue in for paladins)

[chrome palm]

They really need to buff hunters mark so it applies to multiple targets

Having to class stack hunters for their raid buff is insanely disruptive

[hallow mortar]

i donmt think thats why they stack them or?

[dreamy badger]

I mean they are also blasting, so they would be stacked anyway

[hallow mortar]

they just bonk most

[final gulch]

im just gonna block u man xd u made your discord account 2 days ago. this has to be ragebait

[fleet acorn]

anyone with ayije cdm can tell me why "Y-OFFSET" doesnt work for defensives?

[chrome palm]

It’s why they stack them

They’re also op though

But from now until eternity any council fight you’re required to stack hunters

[hallow mortar]

good for them i gues 😄

and when was rogue broken on last two bosses of last season they still did not stack cos they had no more rogue players 😄

3-4 hunters you always get somewhere 😄

[golden thunder]

!guidon

[wicked jolt]

Light Company Guidon (haste on use) Optimization:
When? - Only with the Season 1 4-set bonus and Guidon.
How? - During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back.
Why? - This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[chrome palm]

It was not that broken to be fair compared to like fdk

Just a bit better

[golden thunder]

So when do i use the trinket? With thr 2nd dance?

Or before blades?

[final gulch]

before

it has a small delay

it's before dance but you should be using blades and dance at the same time

but its basically ~half a second before you press your blades and dance so you actually get the haste buff to extend your dance

if you macro it or press it at the same time you won't have the haste for your dance

[short radish]

i think the only time when rogue was broken to the point of stacking was smolderon

everything else was just "really really good but other classes can still do almost similar"

[final gulch]

which imo is how it should be.

the other triple dps classes always have a spec that's very good

it makes sense

[short radish]

yeah my take is that the pure dps spec classes should always have a specs in the top 80%

this is always true for 3/4 of them

🙂

[final gulch]

agreed XD

[livid rapids]

Quick question regarding Light Guidon and shadowblades. Im finding when i use them both macro'ed they go on the same cd (1:30) but by the time Shadowblades comes off CD, Light Guidon has 8-10s left on cd.

Do they usually desync?

[final gulch]

with the sin tier set being bugged all of last season + the state of rogue currently, im actually debating jumping ship lol

which is crazy cause I've always mained rogue

its just pretty obvious nobody at blizzard cares or knows anything about rogue

[hollow spear]

I was that close to switching to mage for midnight

Season 2 it is

[short radish]

just do it now

its not too late

[hollow spear]

not sure I cba to start stuff from scrap

suffering majorly from sunk cost fallacy

[short radish]

you can get a char to 270 ilvl

in 2 days

[final gulch]

this is from the m+ affix

[short radish]

(with people to carry you through 10s)

[hollow spear]

(don't tempt me)

[final gulch]

it gives cooldown reduction and does not affect trinkets

[livid rapids]

ohhhh i c

that makes so much sense

[hollow spear]

I just want to be here and whine

[livid rapids]

i was getting tripped out

[hollow spear]

whine and dine

[final gulch]

yea its annoying

[short radish]

and i have a shaman at 272 as well

[hollow spear]

I am currently suffering through rbgs

getting farmed by russian premades

[celest spruce]

Is it worth crafting a third time this week maybe? A neck perhaps? Thoughts?

[lilac stag]

There’s no time like the present.

https://tenor.com/view/palpatine-star-wars-emperor-do-it-go-for-it-gif-17446081

[short radish]

no hold onto your sparks. every 4 weeks a spark sits in your bag, you get a another spark generated from it

once you have 4 sparks in your bag, youre getting an extra free spark a week

[lilac stag]

Gives you something to play with while on bench

[celest spruce]

No but fr, I'm unsure how to 'calculate' if its worth or not. Could someone give me some insight here? We're 3/8 myth atm, reclearing mythic on sunday

[final gulch]

just sim imo. i think its worth it if you have a low ilvl slot.

[plain cradle]

theres no right or wrong answer, just do you

[final gulch]

i crafted pants.

[lilac stag]

Do you have chemp pieces that are not tier?

[celest spruce]

I have a set of gloves still champion, also a champion crucible, rest are either hero or myth, 272.8 ilvl atm

[short radish]

sparks are used to craft items that are weak or are hard to drop

[final gulch]

you need tier gloves

[short radish]

you can't really "waste them"

aft this point

[celest spruce]

I have tier gloves

[short radish]

worst case you are 2 weeks behind

[lilac stag]

Just run a droptimizer.

[celest spruce]

That's kind of why I'm asking. Like I'm sitting on 110 myth crests atm.

[lilac stag]

See what it says

[short radish]

i crafted neck

again the better question is what are you sitting on crests for

[lilac stag]

Your bracer, cloak and neck are all likely upgrades

[celest spruce]

Well we're reclearing mythic on sunday. Potential drops are myth track weapon, guidon, myth head, myth hands, and myth gaze

[lilac stag]

Saving for rainy day

[celest spruce]

So what I'm considering is either waiting for reclear, or just sending it now

[lilac stag]

If you don’t need it for reclear it’s up to you I suppose. You get more crests on reset

[celest spruce]

Could someone help me look at this from an objective stand point? Cause I'm honestly guessing.

[plain cradle]

why did not holding for amp on king feel better than holding

[short radish]

there's no real objective standpoint here

[lyric thorn]

Personally i crafted a neck, pants couldve been a decent option 2 (were 6/9) atm not that im playing the bosses, but im there in spirit with my new crafts

[short radish]

theres just whatever works best for you

and also RNG

i mean maybe you send and you dont get any loot

[lilac stag]

You could see all plates and mail in your reclear

We don’t know

[short radish]

or maybe you dont send and also don't get any loot

[final gulch]

up to you. if you're trying to get better logs/be stronger for reclear then send.

if you dont care about logs or you want to minimize risk/potentially get slightly more loot then hold.

[celest spruce]

But from an objective stand point, crafting something that is not bis, is not considered a full "waste" right?

[lilac stag]

Maybe leather drops and it goes to boomkin

There is no bis

This isn’t classic

[short radish]

holding things only really matter for the first 2 weeks

after that it doesnt matter

i understand how this is not an answer you were hoping for

because its not really an answer

but really the answer is "nothing matters"

[final gulch]

its a slight waste. if you end up getting something from your vault or whatever that's the same slot with no better options you can still upgrade to 285 for free but you some crests depending on starting ilvl

[short radish]

also this

please prep raid

[final gulch]

I've always just sent tho. i like being strong and im okay with risking wasting some crests.

[lilac stag]

Crafting is meant to supplement drops. Even if you replace a crafted item, that crafted item still counts as crests used so unless it’s a ring and you don’t have another, your only passing gold plus 20 crests to max out the replacement

[celest spruce]

I'm crafting neck, you c onvinced me fimbulvtr

[plain cradle]

https://giphy.com/gifs/pudgypenguins-no-brakes-all-gas-nSC4O57vbN8meLCcVF

[lyric thorn]

Depends, if you are playing the bosses, you should prob send and vibe. If you are Benched as most rogues, waiting for vault is an option, completly depends on what your guild is doing

[short radish]

👍

i crafted neck as well

[celest spruce]

appreciate you

[short radish]

no wukkas

gl with raid

[lilac stag]

wukkas

[lyric thorn]

But personally I just send crafts and not Think about it

[short radish]

i couldnt be fucked farming pit

i could get the pvp neck but also who cares

[final gulch]

i farmed 20 pits.. then got alleria neck from vault :)

[lilac stag]

I need pants and gloves to drop in m+ so I can save mythic crests, but we’re also done for the week so me sitting on crests is whatever

I’ll instant upgrade trinket Tuesday

Would have done it already but I missed the notes about nightmare cache not being bonus crests

wtb 20 more heroic crests

[plain cradle]

even tho we didnt get buffs

at least theres no more valorstones

[celest spruce]

I feel like raidbots cannot be trusted with this spec. it wants me to craft mastery/crit, which would bring me down to 558 haste.. that cant be right can it?

[short radish]

[celest spruce]

I am simming with whetstones

[short radish]

this is one of the few/only times raidbots fcant be trusted

you kinda just

get 700 haste

acquire mastery and crit

[celest spruce]

I just stick to 700 haste no matter what fuck the sim?

[short radish]

thats what im doing

[celest spruce]

alright champ, that makes me feel better about it

[short radish]

end of the day sending your cds at the right times

will matter more than whatever minor stat choice you make

[celest spruce]

but is the goal 700? not 650? some people say 1 thing, some say another thing

[golden thunder]

cant I macro guidon to shadow blades as its cd almost align? or would it be a 1 sec waste of blades ?

[short radish]

its like

680ish

i do 700

because i like leeway

[short radish]

!guidon

[wicked jolt]

Light Company Guidon (haste on use) Optimization:
When? - Only with the Season 1 4-set bonus and Guidon.
How? - During Shadow Blades, line up your second Shadow Dance with the last 8 seconds of Shadow Blades instead of using them back-to-back.
Why? - This allows you to fit another Secret Technique into Shadow Blades+Shadow Dance. It will not be supercharged but thats ok in this scenario.

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[short radish]

[golden thunder]

i read i bro

but its not clear ot me

[short radish]

read again

[upbeat sorrel]

What a lovely change blizzard made by tying dance duration to haste

[short radish]

i miss vers

[upbeat sorrel]

[lilac stag]

700 is basically very comfy either heroic + guidon

[upbeat sorrel]

Feel like a lot of other classes feel better to play after the midnight reworks

Couldn't be us

[hollow spear]

not sure who says that 650 is good

[short radish]

eh

honestly most classes are really basic to play

incl us

[hollow spear]

I have not seen one person say that 650 is good

[lilac stag]

Sub is fun to play

[short radish]

its just the deepening shadows that feels bad

[grizzled sphinx]

better to go in m+ with 1 point in veiltouched or Finality? ty

[small vortex]

im enjoying sub i just dislike how it applies to the current raid tier

[lilac stag]

in typical sub fashion we have some interesting min maxes

[small vortex]

feels like my niche is ok st dmg or padding!

[celest spruce]

you crafted your neck without embel right? with instead having embel on an off-piece?

[lilac stag]

We don’t cleave
We’re not range

[short radish]

i already had waist with embelish

[celest spruce]

kk same

[small vortex]

i played rogue this tier cause both our rogues quit or moved guilds and now it feels like wrong isnt really needed!

[lilac stag]

welcome to being the sucker

The other two were smarter

[small vortex]

well wox i think rerolled too

so...

[lilac stag]

Finds a replacement sucker

[upbeat sorrel]

We recruited another rogue at the end of last tier so I main swapped to mage for the new season

[lilac stag]

And you’re free

[small vortex]

i see him keying but i think hes playing dk too

[small vortex]

i think we have a rogue now so im fotm rerolling next tier

maybe i play one of those ranged classes..

[short radish]

just play mage

and have fun

enjoy the game

[small vortex]

real

[upbeat sorrel]

Can confirm I am now having fun and enjoying the mage

Rogue is still fun though wish it was better in the current raid though

[small vortex]

im messing around with demo and ele alt rn too, quite fun

[upbeat sorrel]

Our first heroic paladin kill our rogue parsed 98 and was doing slightly more damage than our brewmaster

[zinc wagon]

haste trink slightly before-> sb -> dance/tec macro -> boom boom

where do i use the potion?

[lilac stag]

Trinket

[dry flame]

I'm always of the opinion that because Rogue is the only pure melee dps class in the entire game, either give us more roles or always have at least one spec in top 5 dps

[lilac stag]

Remove -> between sblades & dance + Sectech

[eternal frigate]

I need more haste right? Raidbots tells me I have "enough" haste, but I know I should be at 17–18%

[zinc wagon]

sorry im a bit stupid 🙂 wdym exactly

[lilac stag]

raidbots does not tell you you have enough. It tells you it cant get to next breakpoint so it puts on best gear

[lilac stag]

Macro sblades dance and Sectech. Zero reason for a pause between those 3

[upbeat sorrel]

Yeah I remember when rogue was one of the more popular classes in the game

Been a while since those days

[sacred jewel]

@zinc wagon
(stealth) shadowstrike + guidon -> sb+sd+st+potion macro

[eternal frigate]

Soo, I need more haste to cap the 17-18% or not?

[zinc wagon]

ok thank both of you.

[lilac stag]

19 years

[tribal blade]

what happened i think is rogue was so dominant in the early game to levels of being completely broken

and then the devs kept working to make rogue less busted

[lilac stag]

It’s not a percent. It’s a raw number.

[tribal blade]

and it's continued in that downward trend since

[eternal frigate]

... 650-700

[lilac stag]

684-700

Are you there? No? Get there.

Don’t have guidon? Get it.

[upbeat sorrel]

https://tenor.com/view/ohnepixel-67-ohne67-ohnepixel67-gif-7916606331636751839

[lilac stag]

now you can play slightly above tank in raid.

[eternal frigate]

I haveit

[lilac stag]

No, you don’t.

[plain cradle]

Don’t you really only need like 600 if you have guidon ? It puts you over the 3 global threshold

[eternal frigate]

Man I use the items the sim tell me, that was the reason i ask...

[sacred jewel]

but that’s with 0.0 delay or leeway

which is not realistic

[plain cradle]

It puts you at like 1200

[lilac stag]

Sectech cd is hasted, also important

[sacred jewel]

but what about the other SD windows

when guidon is on CD

[dry flame]

with oils and flasks, my haste is just a bit more, and my food buff gives haste 😔

[lilac stag]

And I said you need 2 things. You don’t have those 2 things.

[eternal frigate]

I literally wrote, "I need more Haste, right?" I know I should aim for that, but Raidbots tells me to use gear without Haste.

[lilac stag]

And I told you what the sim is doing since you don’t have haste

[lilac stag]

Holy fuck

[eternal frigate]

....

[short radish]

idk what youre asking then

you wrote "I need more haste?"

then were told yes

[lilac stag]

As well as get haste.

[short radish]

what more are you asking

[lilac stag]

idk what else you want me to say

[tidal solstice]

.

[lilac stag]

come Tuesday channel back to dead anyways.

[short radish]

bro you think the buffs are going to change anything meaningful

[lilac stag]

people will flock to assa and whispyr’s pin of got exactly what we needed

you know the drill

[tidal solstice]

i dont like assa i hope sub gets buffs

[bronze turret]

Is sub considered hidden broken

Or why are we dodging buffs

[lilac stag]

Ai tuning

[bronze turret]

Is there a build they know about that isn’t found that is way better

[lilac stag]

they think DS is good or some shit

[bronze turret]

I remember in SL we got like 5% more dmg from just doing tc

Sometimes it do be like that as well

[lilac stag]

not finding 25% cleave dmg in TC I’m afraid

[tidal solstice]

ah yes. heres how i know the expansion is gonna suck for rogues. if the first patch with rogue buffs has this

[bronze turret]

Bit hyperbole

I think sub is good enough

For most

Stuff

It’s not the best spec, but should it be?

[lilac stag]

raid it’s shit

[short radish]

yes

[lilac stag]

rogue is just shit

[bronze turret]

Rogue is shit and will remain shit, probably

[short radish]

as a pure dps spec

[bronze turret]

But for 99% of gamers it doesn’t matter

[short radish]

one of the rogue specs (any)should do giga damag

[tidal solstice]

only melee pure and no raid utility

yes

a rogue should always be like top 3-5

[bronze turret]

Like always, rogue has a lot of secondary power via utility and survivability and mobility

[short radish]

just like mages warlocks and hunters

so does mages

except they have more

and theyre also allowed to do damage

[bronze turret]

Shit guilds all over the place cosplay rwf and bench rogues. It’s so fucking dumb and I’ve had this opinion always.

[lilac stag]

When is looked down upon this heavily in RWF it transfers to other aspects including doing content it’s good at. LFG bias from RWF is real

[bold brook]

man tuneing shmuning, numbers are whatever, let us have a turn of being bin juice, if in exchange we get considerate, thoughout out, time invested changes, not rushed slop

[tidal solstice]

outside of cooldowns even

[bold brook]

like gawshit, how is that still alive

[short radish]

yes thats what following the meta does. it happens in every single game

[short radish]

this im fine with. doing damage outside of cooldowns is whatever

[bronze turret]

Yes but if you’re good enough you can convince people

[short radish]

to have higher highs, you need to have lower lows

[lilac stag]

there’s nothing rogue does in raid that’s needed

[glacial eagle]

yes? yes it should
rogue should have a top-5 spec every single patch with the current design
like legit

[short radish]

but why does it need to be like this? why do we need to do 100x the effort when every other class just exists

[bronze turret]

Well unless you’re in a perfect guild with perfect roster you’re probably just going to have to be a better player than the others and if they still bench you they are just stupid

[glacial eagle]

there is no reason for Rogue to exist if it doesn't bring top-tier damage

[lilac stag]

Doesn’t need a perfect roster. Just needs a roster of 24-28 players all competent enough to outdps a purple parsing rogue.

[upbeat sorrel]

We have raid buff!!

[bronze turret]

Sub has decent low cd burst, big survival, good mobility and bring a raidwide dmg reduction. I think that’s just too simple

[glacial eagle]

you sure do lil buddy

[short radish]

so does ret paladin, and they bring more

[lilac stag]

and guess what, easier to play specs made rosters more competent

[bronze turret]

And maybe you don’t respect my opinion. But i have played at a level where every minor thing matters and i have always played.

[lilac stag]

this ain’t that timeline

[bronze turret]

Even when sub was garbage

Why do you think it’s different?

[valid yoke]

Maybe we should have a pissy fit and close our discord see if that works 😂

[short radish]

no

[bronze turret]

We have more shit now than ever

[short radish]

thats cringe

[glacial eagle]

yeah half of my guild is now able to do actual damage when I used to gap them like 30% in TWW

[short radish]

but none of it acutally matters to people both at the high end and at the low end

and what we have is not really unique

[bronze turret]

You say that as if i haven’t been part of it

[lilac stag]

It’s an easier game. It’s a heavily cleave and range favored raid. Atrophic is finally being shown for how minimal it is.

[bronze turret]

And would know

[short radish]

i know you've been a part of it

[bronze turret]

Then why are you just ignoring it

[lilac stag]

our burst is shit

[short radish]

because you're also uber high end

[lilac stag]

For a burst class

[bronze turret]

Ur raidleader is trash if you raid wr 100+ and they bench you for class

[short radish]

that can just be invited because people know youre good

[lilac stag]

Our 90 does near nothing

[short radish]

yes but this happens

[bronze turret]

Then you need to argue better

[short radish]

you can say the RL is trash

[lilac stag]

You get benched for a stronger raid comp

That’s not trash

When the class is trash

Why carry the rogue?

[short radish]

but my point is "why does rogue have to be like this when it is largly a rogue only problem for existing"

[bronze turret]

Raid comp is whatever at most ranks, please just stop

[valid yoke]

Thing is we can talk about rogues utility justifying low damage, but then shouldn’t warlocks be in the same league as well? Except all 3 warlock specs are top 6 (last time I checked). Does all their stuff not count?

[glacial eagle]

aff is actually pretty bad afaik (in raid, it's decent in m+)

[bronze turret]

We had shit comp every single raid because we just let ppl play what they enjoyed the most and still did good. It’s an illusion. Blizzard knows this as well

[glacial eagle]

but yes, they have two very good specs this tier

[lilac stag]

Play a rogue on paladins prog when you have 4 other more capable specs available. Okie dokie

[upbeat sorrel]

Warlock does good damage at least

[lilac stag]

Play a rogue on phoenix when you have another MM hunter or devourer waiting and you’re already 3 healing for dps check

Got it.

[short radish]

when you say "we"

what WR are you

i assume something like

top 50

[tidal solstice]

gearing my hunter but thinking i should do mage instead 😐

[short radish]

or top 20

[bronze turret]

Rogue is always seriously underrated. It’s an issue in the game, but if you can speak about the benefits and why you should be brought, chances are they will let you have a chance. And then you’ll die the least, you’ll do decent dmg, you can do prio dmg every 20 sec.. like

[vagrant sinew]

they were r50 as a 3 day guild with no splits

[glacial eagle]

ok why not bring a ret with just about the same benefits, better damage and more utility?

[bronze turret]

Like we played 2 subs on kurog. Every single ”good guild” played outlaw. We did more prio dmg than those outlaws and made the boss easier

If you’re just a bot, then you deserve the bench

[bronze turret]

Player diff

Or are you and the ret equal

If he’s better then fair play

[valid yoke]

I can’t speak to high rank guilds I just do CE raiding and that’s enough for me - so typically as long as I play the best rogue spec then that’s fine

I wouldn’t be able to raid with outlaw for example

[bronze turret]

Nah at most levels being comfortable and not dying is more important than dmg

[glacial eagle]

let's assume equal
like that's the point
player skill being equal, why shouldn't Rogue bring top-tier damage to raid? it's not like Rogue is uniquely good at surviving stuff (they're better than most classes, but not all), and it brings very limited utility, so what's the point of the class again?

[vagrant sinew]

you guys dont raid in guilds where the equal part applies because then youd know how moot your point is

[plain cradle]

Find a guild that doesn’t bench you xd.

[vagrant sinew]

but like it just depends on your specific situation, yeah ofc if you raid in some 28-30 people guild it will be alot harder

but hey people also raid 4 days for wr500

[short radish]

yeah we have a roster of 28 people

[vagrant sinew]

im sure the rogue isnt the problem there

you know

[short radish]

i topped damage on saladbar and vorasius

still better to bring someone else not me for dragons/paladins

[soft oriole]

Tbh we can be okay on dragons I think

[short radish]

because as good as im playing, my damage max caps out at other peoples medium

[vagrant sinew]

most guilds dont bench rogue on dragons

or well I guess you can then just apply the same scenario for most melee anyways

[valid yoke]

This is why rogue needs a ranged throwing weap spec 😉

[vagrant sinew]

(super low sample size) but rogue currently has more public parses than dk on paladins!

[short radish]

because DKs raid buff isn't needed there

[soft oriole]

Paladins however, that is where the impressively bad rogue tuning steps in. Like how is outlaw not good at that fight, kinda same story with assa

[chilly dagger]

Should I trust Raidbots sims in that regard, that it always wants to cut me to 14% haste (even if I could reach 18%) too and wants to have some more versa on my gear?

[soft oriole]

No don’t trust it

Well

[valid yoke]

I’m convinced that outlaw will never be good compared to the others lol, it’ll always be dagger tiers

[soft oriole]

Not that simple but you are human with human flaws and technical limitations

[valid yoke]

Which is a shame cos outlaw is fun af

[soft oriole]

So haste good

[hollow spear]

there's 0 reason why outlaw shouldn't be good on paladins

but they are

[soft oriole]

Yeah I’m not outlaws biggest fan but I just don’t get how a spec with that design should be bad at 3 target cleave

[short radish]

yeah honestly if any tier was an outlaw tier

it felt like it was this one

with such high uptime fights

[lilac stag]

It’s not reaching the raw number needed. Percents don’t matter

[chilly dagger]

I know, but I read everywhere that 18% haste should be aimed for, but it never sims anywhere near that 18% for me. Is it all diminishing returns past 14 and it values (because they are - crit / versa higher)

[chilly dagger]

what would be the raw number needed?

[lilac stag]

684-700

[chilly dagger]

and if its not reaching that with my gear options, it prefers other stats higher?

is that 684 with haste flask or mastery flask?

[lilac stag]

it’s a raw number however you get there

[hollow spear]

it's 684 however you can reach it

[bronze turret]

Overall dps? I can see them not doing anything for the shield

[hollow spear]

overall

[bronze turret]

Ye that’s weird, should be the best scenario ever

[lilac stag]

arms shining. outlaw shitting the bed

[tribal blade]

iirc they removed or nerfed the talent where BF did more dmg the less targets it hit

that's probably where it went

[short radish]

RIP

[hollow spear]

maybe they oiled up their arms

[bronze turret]

Should still be good

[tribal blade]

but of all the fights you would expect outlaw to be good on

should be paladins

it's really weird

[lilac stag]

should is the important word here

[hollow spear]

that talent was alright, but it wasn't the difference between law being good on low target cleave or not

[tribal blade]

might be because of their energy? no idea

maybe the new design really killed what outlaw was good at

i wonder if it's the same issue sub has where you gen less CP when you cast BF on low targets

[bronze turret]

Unless their dmg is just complete garbage they should still be good

[glacial eagle]

wym it literally would give you +20% damage cleaved on three targets

[bronze turret]

But if no good players play outlaw that’s usually the biggest problem

[hollow spear]

wasn't it lower than that?

[tribal blade]

yeah what was it, +3% to BF per target below 8?

[glacial eagle]

4% per missing target, so +20% for only 3 (main and two extras) over 8 (main and seven extras)

[tribal blade]

or 4

[vagrant sinew]

people in high end guilds arent going to craft an outlaw weapon start of season push

[torn cedar]

Total two target was what, 113.5% cleave

[bronze turret]

Player diff is usually missed as a metric

[vagrant sinew]

but its only saturday week2, paladins by monday is probably going to have double the kills it has today

but yeah rogue is straight ass on crown, beloren is probably getting gutted next reset

and rogue seems fine on midnight falls

[tribal blade]

i'm guessing sin is best on paladins because it scales less linearly now with how energy from bleeds beyond the first are reduced

i could be completely making that up though

[vagrant sinew]

should be assa, especially with the small aoe buff for next reset

[tribal blade]

oh yeah it'll be best by a mile now

[lilac stag]

I haven’t checked where lortek is in prog

[tribal blade]

already told my RL if i'm in for paladins i'll play sin

[lilac stag]

that’s cute

[tribal blade]

i can't bring myself to play sub on that fight lol

[lilac stag]

you’re always looking for assa angle.

[bronze turret]

Sub is just comfy

Literally made it the dumbest spec in the game

[tribal blade]

this is just beyond insane

on heroic

how they're letting a spec be that bad on a fight

is blowing my mind

[celest spruce]

this is why we play assa on paladins lmao

[dry flame]

Paladins?
it is nvm

[north garnet]

assa is 40k behind too^^

[tidal solstice]

could give you a 40% buff and youd still not be #1

[celest spruce]

assa would at least be mid range, not bottom 😛

[limpid sage]

86 parse competing with a 99 xd

[north garnet]

Mid range in question

[dry flame]

https://giphy.com/gifs/this-is-fine-2UCt7zbmsLoCXybx6t

[quiet totem]

secret techniq target capped ?

[celest spruce]

on that parse specifically

[north garnet]

slice it any way the graph is the same

[celest spruce]

Oh yeah for sure, we are getting fucked this season

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/frankly-thats-a-skill-issue-hazzikostas-ion-ion-hazzikostas-skill-issue-gif-21595688

[celest spruce]

It was quite sad not to see any more sub buffs next week also

[hollow spear]

ig it's because you cannot just throw an aura buff at us

[lilac stag]

Get used to it. priest -> shaman from here on out.

[north garnet]

i doubt sub is getting any at all

[celest spruce]

I mean as long as we have 1 spec in the top 5 it should be fine

[hollow spear]

we just don't really have a "cleave balance knob"

[dry flame]

or utility
or roles
or love

[karmic harbor]

guys, did i miss the sub rogue changes?

[hollow spear]

they'd have to revert some changes they made between tww3 and now

[lilac stag]

Revert nimble. fixed.

[dry flame]

We all missed them, all the donzens of rogues across the realms

[tribal blade]

lol yes, my RL already told me i'm gonna see a lot of prog this tier because i've been performing

[hollow spear]

Yep. But that's on "give me things that won't happen".

[lilac stag]

but let’s not make it out that it’s more difficult than that

[hollow spear]

Well it is

because that would mean they go back on things

[lilac stag]

it’s not

[hollow spear]

which they don't most of the time

[lilac stag]

Like they went back on dk changes?

[hollow spear]

it's not the same thing

and you know it

[lilac stag]

It is

It’s all tuning

[hollow spear]

reverting changes to nimble

is not "all tuning"

[lilac stag]

It is

[hollow spear]

but I am not going to waste my breath on a discussion with you

dw

[lilac stag]

How is it not tuning?

They determined it was too much. Now it’s way too little.

literally tuning

if we use nimble for cleave, our aoe goes down

[shut crypt]

Hi, could someone help me improve my DPS? I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong, and I’m fairly well geared. Could you check my log and tell me what I’m doing wrong? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Bp8YLNxwWhKzbjdH?fight=73&type=casts&source=731&view=timeline

[north garnet]

-Give shadow dance more time to update for guidon
-macro sectech into dance so you get more gcds during it. dont cast dance during gcd

Super charge every sectech (out of blades)

[shut crypt]

But is that the reason why I’m getting a 38% parse?

[tribal blade]

100% yes

those are huge mistakes

[north garnet]

this is a wasted guidon

[shut crypt]

oh, ok, ty

[tribal blade]

just using dance+sectec macro will improve your dps tremendously

and only ever send dance when you can use sectec the same gcd

[north garnet]

your talents are wrong on this fight this is massive

take out potent powder for weaponmaster

[shut crypt]

i saw the rank 1 was using that

for adds on first boss

[shut crypt]

btw, what u mean guidon? the trinket?

[north garnet]

yeah

[tribal blade]

you need to cast guidon at least 1 second before sending dance

because of server tick update

or else your dance won't be updated with it for more duration

[shut crypt]

ohh, i see

[tribal blade]

incredibly scuffed but that's how it is lol

[north garnet]

just be very mindful of your dance windows in general

its literally all we play around and where all the min max is

[shut crypt]

Thanks a lot guys, I’ll take your advice. I use the trinket 1 second before my cooldowns and Secret Technique with Supercharge.

[hazy breach]

It's still quite bad, but not bad enough to be benched

[dry flame]

amaze amaze amaze

[hazy breach]

I'm baffled how hunters dodged a nerf yet again

[valid yoke]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1488547832062415010/drop_fixed.png

[tribal blade]

we just have to accept they're the main characters

[agile kernel]

people play them enough to where pissing them off may cause less wow tokens to be sold

[tame notch]

Hey guys I checked new tuning, did I miss sub section or there is none?

[agile kernel]

you mean bring it back to 65 or 75%?

[valid yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/batman-lonely-rain-sad-gif-7792030237214898863