subtlety

[stuck arrow]

The thing that's ridiculous is like.

6% ST & 3% aura buffs offset vs 8% aura & 15% AoE nerfs...

St basically where it was prepatch and we down in AoE by about 20%.

[vale osprey]

Genuinely pisses me off because it was them balancing off of fucking m0 week numbers

[stuck arrow]

Lol I don't even think Sub would be OP with 20% more AoE after playing a few +14s.

[tight fjord]

Well 4 pieces with good trinkets feels like im gonna get nerfed again

[crystal bone]

destro doubles my damage on pull 1 of AA

[vale pine]

think @sick sand's addon does tracking for it in some form, best is to ask him to explain

[crystal bone]

[lilac stag]

yeah it’s just tossing shit at the wall and see what sticks

[vale osprey]

Play with a frost mage, lock, or hunter

[tight fjord]

It's hard to compare to people rn. I got too lucky too early.

[void ocean]

lmao im like why is echo streaming and Perfecto is not...

then i realised

[honest void]

well that's always likely going to be the case

[void ocean]

RIP

[teal plaza]

Rogues can't be buffed because then they'll be too strong in pvp

[honest void]

what's BP spam to like 20 RoF overlapping

on top of their wither stacks

[tight fjord]

Gapping every group I join

[dry plank]

Yeah rogue too good for raid and they hiding in shadows to then stack 3 rogues for last boss supremacy

[vale osprey]

Yeah play with the giga classes

And it's jover

[drifting elbow]

Hi, I remember seeing a pin post with talents per raid boss style, am I blind or it disappeared? (Not the guides online)

[keen dome]

I've def seen more Rogues around this season than ever before but it's very ancedotal

like in content

[void ocean]

man we should just all stop playing rogue like just fck it

every season same shit

[keen dome]

never

[stuck arrow]

Nah, rogues fun.

[keen dome]

the day I stop playing rogue is the day WoW gets multiclassing on one character and it'll be less I stop playing rogue and more I play everything else

[shadow lance]

Most of player got 3 braincells working

[void ocean]

good thing i chose fdk as main for this season, im doing a lot better like this xd

[shadow lance]

Can't pug a key without stupid people in. Going into 10s is too easy

[stuck arrow]

Plus I'd rather complain and doom about rogue than complain and doom about something like Uhdk.

I'd prefer my biases not make me utterly delusional. 😂

[void ocean]

i decided just not to progress xD

[verbal kelp]

hello, does anybody have link to the tier set gains spreadsheet? so i can send this to my raid leader?

[void ocean]

https://giphy.com/gifs/link-the-legend-of-zelda-NVBR6cLvUjV9C

[dry plank]

Don’t doom too much, we are fine. Just don’t summon guy here 🙂

[dry plank]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1exJeu5eVe4bTmyg3WFx5PTxIWvDLi0j-WW-XWpGoG88/edit?usp=drivesdk

[graceful osprey]

13.0 you’ll all see, trust

[void ocean]

The Last Rogue

[wintry heart]

What is max crafting ilvl right now? 283?

[quick marlin]

285

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vDxHFW59uqbXf1SS1C3CBq hopefully i drop wrists/back soon

[soft oriole]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you have real guild master energy, or lucky pug i guess

also m+ grinder ofc, cant take away all your credit

[quick marlin]

we had to do an extra normal split so i drop my 4pc cus we didnt drop any leather pieces in my split last week or this week

[soft oriole]

[vale pine]

looking at the wfr, i am rly happy that they nerfed subtlety. Its nice to not see any outliner dps stacked in a wfr for once on a cleave fight

[void ocean]

wait what nerf

[dense mountain]

[cosmic dust]

is it worth to spent another 80 myth crests for the second spark item or shall we wait till next week vault + maybe some mythic bosses?

[hoary orchid]

guys who already have 4 piece, how is the droprate of catalysts?

[dense mountain]

i think if your progging mythic bosses this week you should consider crafting, but if no mythic its prob fine to wait and see vault

[hoary orchid]

im pondering catalyst a veteran to have a 4 piece

[stuck arrow]

If they didn't nerf sub, they wouldn't even take MM to paladins. Would just be 6 subs.

[raw wadi]

You mean the AoE/Powder nerf?

[stuck arrow]

I'd actually say the opposite.

Of you have a chance of mythic loot - save your crests for that. Rather they go into say a trinket than a belt.

If not - send em.

[honest void]

tbf tbf tbf

[quick marlin]

every boss is a dps check you re hard inting by not having 2x myth crafts going into mythic

[honest void]

i'm pretty sure it's also cause hunter has like the best raid buff for this fight

[raw wadi]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[raw wadi]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Bubbling wax:

• Can be pickpocketed from kobolds in e.g. The Ringing Deeps. (needs The Final Candle questline completed.)
• Only use it on one weapon. (does not stack)

[stuck arrow]

Idk. First four bosses easy and drop giga trinkets / chests / helms / weapons.

Should wait to see what you get before you send myth crests. Might end up with less DPS on the actual hard DPS checks.

[crystal bone]

[quick marlin]

did you kill chimaerus mythic or salhadar?

[wintry heart]

I am ilvl 247 😂😂

[chilly dagger]

Do we swap to Pandaren now? Im a void elf haha

[wintry heart]

Swapping races for dps ❌
Swapping races for what looks better in slutmog 👍👌🏻

[honest void]

^

real

https://tenor.com/view/plastic-man-real-real-powder-powder-that-makes-you-say-real-animated-comic-plastic-man-gif-7493651428267836743

[chilly dagger]

@wintry heart like this?

[dry plank]

Balance team in wow is “best” team! True professionals

[wintry heart]

Yes

[void ocean]

like how are they not pushing like 5% buff rn

[stuck arrow]

Not yet. But I'm also in a trash dad CE guild and not a particularly competitive one.

But that doesn't really change the logic there.

You'll note liquid / echo / methods characters all have either crest less or vet second embellishments.

[ember yarrow]

And at how many cp short can you case eviscerate or black powder?

[quick marlin]

yeah ok

tag me after the kills

[honest void]

tbf u craft a mythic wep now and then get one in ur first proper vault

shit feels rough

[stuck arrow]

I mean.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/illidan/cheetahdisco

[quick marlin]

no clue why you re linking me a liquid character

[frosty axle]

isnt belt recommended for sub since theres no belt with those stats? seems fine to just make it, rather take a socket than a belt in a vault

[quick marlin]

you said the bosses are piss easy and you shouldnt craft

liquid/echo/method have 60 pulls on these bosses from beta and are massively better players

!macro

!macros

gg

[scarlet gull]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[stuck arrow]

That's not what I said at all. I said it makes sense to hold crests to define drop RNG so you can use them most efficiently on the most challenging bosses.

But go off I guess homey.

[balmy gate]

rogue dead class 😄

[wintry heart]

Woah what’s wrong with dad guilds

[stuck arrow]

Nothing. That's why I'm in one. Lol.

[exotic solstice]

anyone skipping first for veiltouch in m+ ?

[meager oasis]

Hi, playing sub this tier and trying to figure out if there are any guidelines for optimizing time between cd's/the lead up to shadow blades:

Should I be trying to save stacks of shadow technique going into shadow blades? How far ahead of shadow blades do I need to be thinking about resource pooling, be it energy or techniques or whatever

Or is this overthinking and just don't cap resources

[exotic solstice]

first dance*

[void ocean]

you should reroll hunter

[outer iron]

Is there an addon that could play a sound or pop an icon when I have a coup ready? (other than CDM) With the new sub rotation I kinda never look at my action bars anymore so I keep missing some coup uses.

[stuck arrow]

I'd recommend tracking ShT stacks, personally.

[pastel geyser]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

just send the BP+Coup macro

and vibe

[silk fiber]

I got my 4 peice mid raid hearted out and got two more sparks on pallies+crown then got another in an M+

[outer iron]

thats even better lol ty

[meager oasis]

Will keep that in mind going forward, thanks

[lusty narwhal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[astral flax]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[short aurora]

700 flat

[sullen spruce]

how do i check the sims rotation ?

[lucid jackal]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[void ocean]

so when do u guys expect the next tuning

[timber meteor]

12.0.5

[flat wyvern]

after rwf at least

[wintry heart]

Why are we fighting when we could be kissing

[bleak night]

Why not both

[timber meteor]

they lazy

[lucid jackal]

Its confirmed there is more tuning this week

[graceful rock]

I thought they confirmed tuning for the next 2 weeks?

[hoary orchid]

Thank you very much

[leaden prairie]

+2% aura buff for sub

[dry plank]

Arcane mage and frost dk and boomkin buffs incoming

[alpine wraith]

maybe a 1.5% buff

[lilac stag]

Priest -> Shaman next blue post

[leaden prairie]

@warm marlin ping me when trinket thing is fixed

i cannot play this piss

[dry plank]

Optimist detected 🙂

[keen dome]

What's the trinket issue, outta interest?

[fiery fog]

10 kills and i havent seen a guidon drop

[stuck arrow]

You talking about the dance time having latency from haste increases?

[leaden prairie]

yes

[alpine wraith]

are you trying to do the krangle min max?

[leaden prairie]

yes

[alpine wraith]

like the double snapo

good luck my friend

[leaden prairie]

and i dont get how you are supposed to do it

i can do it sometimes

[keen dome]

I have a secret to get it. Just convince a friend to be there, have them win it, and then ask them for it.

[white tapir]

Has the recraft bug been fixed yet?

[leaden prairie]

idk its cringe

[alpine wraith]

you need a bit more than 700 haste ideally

[leaden prairie]

i dont wanna play this spec

[alpine wraith]

also i rng the first snap on 0.6

instead of the full 1 sec

works most of the time after the strike

[leaden prairie]

:D

me when i have to be a magician to know when i can press dance after trinkt

just ping me when its fixed

ass

[alpine wraith]

then if i dont get the 3 to 2 secs and guidon is about to expire i send dance anyway

[stuck arrow]

It's kinda scuffed. But it's not that bad.

[graceful rock]

Youre never getting pinged

[leaden prairie]

?

[stuck arrow]

I don't really think it's going to get fixed.

[nimble pilot]

Should i take the gaze i only have 1 set + 2 Dwanlight manaflux so if i take the i will wait the next week for the 4 set or i can get the chest for the 4 set
So what is the best ?

[dry plank]

Never fixed - talent redesign/removed in 13.0

[warm marlin]

sir yes sir

however i may have the bad news that a blizzard man said it wasnt easy to fix

so you may wait a while

[leaden prairie]

the double sec tech thinng is in sims right

[spice crag]

Is double ren'dorei or ren'dorei + mastery weapon enchants bis?

[warm marlin]

yeah robot does it no problem

bro has no delay

[leaden prairie]

ye its cheating

[stuck arrow]

You'll know right away if your dance took the haste, you can adjust play normal. Then you fix it for the next pull.

In the mean time build a haste buffer.

Small DPS loss small on first CD window, roughly half the time.

[keen dome]

The goddamn machines

[leaden prairie]

is the trinket still mega bis not doing it

[leaden prairie]

if my dance didnt take the haste why am i even playing the trinket bro

[zenith mirage]

puzzlebox isnt too far off timers are just scuffed w it

[warm marlin]

idk puzzlebox does look good

[zenith mirage]

feels shit to play but does dam

[stuck arrow]

But puzzlebox just as scuffed.

[stuck arrow]

Your second dance will take it.

[leaden prairie]

xd

[neon pond]

Is combo points stacking before fight with sd fixed?

[leaden prairie]

you are just wasting half the value of the trinket

if you dont get hte extended dance

whats the point

[stuck arrow]

You also 100% get the SecTec cdr.

Think of it like pistol shot procs when you pop your CDs. Every once and a while you win. 😉

[bleak night]

[leaden prairie]

[vale osprey]

Can someone explain the second dance window in blades with 4 set? Do we delay it until there are X many seconds left on SecTec cd and then go dance --> evis --> strike --> SecTec?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[vale osprey]

That's what I've been doing but idk if I misheard

[hazy breach]

#subtlety-faq message

[stuck arrow]

Idk there's not much to track on Sub, I kind of enjoy the 1s timer the guidon shenanigans let's me use. 😂

[slate nest]

what was the tricks macro?

or

addon

sry

[hazy breach]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Auto Tricks on tank Addon - TankMD

[stuck arrow]

If you break it up and then take note of when you pressed vs whether it takes or not you really only have issues with first dance.

[slate nest]

ty Ele

[vale osprey]

❤️ u eleem I had missed it

[gusty jungle]

guys do you know a addon who put a cross on you ? cant see my character in melee sometimes...

[slate nest]

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/wheresmyfeet

[rigid delta]

Is there a way to be notified when you dont have supercharge stacks before a boss fight nowadays?

[vale osprey]

JesusCrusifiction addon

[spice crag]

how much haste do we have in full bis? estimated

[gusty jungle]

thanks !

[smoky estuary]

do you guys use any gcd while waiting 5 secs before secret tech or?

[slate nest]

backstab

lol

[smoky estuary]

when I evis 5 secs before I don't generate enough energy or combo points to six before dance

[slate nest]

backstab

[smoky estuary]

just spam it even if combo full?

ok.

[slate nest]

i mean i do that

[patent hinge]

About to try swapping over from assassination, how is our energy generation looking over here?

[slate nest]

energy generation? you have no issues in dance but outside is yikes

just get 700 haste and it's fine for the most part xd

[patent hinge]

Is that breakpoint big enough that I should hold off on swapping at all until I have that level of haste?

[slate nest]

i mean, idk, try hitting dummy in sub and in assa

whichever does more you play

🤷‍♂️

[wintry heart]

I’m not at the breakpoint and it feels okay

[plush roost]

Any knowers know what atrophic does to dragon boss ?

does it effect tethers, gloom, howl, breath?

probably does jack shit on intermission outside of circle damage

[latent plover]

idk the reasoning behind it at all, but I'm been performing better with Deathstalker than I have trickster in my M+ runs +10 and higher

[chilly dagger]

Lets say I have a Set piece chest already and drop it again, could I exchange that to another Set slot?

[spice crag]

no

[chilly dagger]

thats a bummer 😄

kk ty!

[latent plover]

I sim lower with Deathstalker, but my overall is always more (probably due to party comp etc.)

Part of me thinks it's because of this

[warm vale]

guys should i use this or ?

[pulsar cape]

how much haste was it? 18%?

[warm vale]

yes

[hazy breach]

Well thats still less than the 20% from flawless form trickster has all the time

[latent plover]

Ik which is why I can't make sense of it

[warm vale]

on what should i use my manaflux , i already have tierset chest

[latent plover]

there's 0 reason for me to be doing better in deathstalker

[hazy breach]

Use it when you get 4p

[latent plover]

but I think it's just by chance

[warm vale]

wdym ?

[young reef]

yo guys question here
i am new to rogue for pve, i cant decide between outlaw or sub
what do you guys think? is out law easy rotation?

also are they same stats, mastery / haste?

or different

[hazy breach]

You want to use it when you get 4p

[steady sail]

Sorry if it's asked and answered but couldn't find anything - if you have Guidon is there a new haste breakpoint you want to hit or still 650-700? And does the tier of Guidon change that maths?

[hazy breach]

Because once you get 4p you unlock being able to loot more catalyst charges

[warm vale]

so i do the raid until i get all 4 pieces or from the vault right ?

[hazy breach]

And if you use 1 catalyst to get 2p and then loot hands which you already catalysted, then youll be screwed

Well no

You do raid until you can use your 2 catalyst charges to have all 4

[warm vale]

aha i see okay thank u bro!!!

[spice crag]

are all the top rogues starting to swap to deathstalker?

[young reef]

do you guys reccomend sub rogue?

i cant decide which spec to play

[keen dome]

yeah it's great

[alpine wraith]

bold of you to ask

what do you expect

[keen dome]

sub number one

[chrome palm]

Sub is probably the best rogue spec

[young reef]

best and most fun?

[graceful crown]

Sub is always the spec

[young reef]

im 223 ilvl and i do like 70k single target atm lol

its kinda crazy

burst that is

[chrome palm]

Outlaw is a lot more fun for me

[young reef]

yea im thinking i might enjoy outlaw

cause i dont have to dance

and manage my dance

but i wonder if its complex?

[graceful crown]

Try dance irl

[young reef]

with the rolling of dice

[chrome palm]

More than sub sure

[young reef]

also, when do i press black powder over eviscarte, how many mobs?

[keen dome]

If you aren't sure then you should play it.

[young reef]

is it 3?

or 2

[keen dome]

Nothing is stopping you just playing it

[graceful crown]

Tbh sub is the easiest of 3 right now imo

[young reef]

i just gotta role the bones eh? and blade flurry?

[graceful crown]

Maybe a bit boring in long term

[young reef]

but for sub, how many mobs make it worth it to black powder

over evis

[stuck arrow]

Sub a bit of a raid leader spec right now. Fun though.

[young reef]

outlaw for m+?

[wary turtle]

remember seeing a notification somewhere for a video saying "do not craft w hero crests". can't find proof that vid existed. is that true? should i stay away from crafting a mainhand wep?

[graceful crown]

Dont use hero crests on crafting

You need them to upgrade hero equipment and save myth crests

[wary turtle]

I see. I'm far from needing myth crests tho and am typically a 2.8-3K m+ player but will hang onto em to see how things pan out

[graceful crown]

Step by step hehe, its a minmax worth situation, in the long term all will be maxed

If you re more casual its ok anyway

[young reef]

when do i black powder?

over evis

3 mob or 2?

[oblique fable]

Check the FAQ

[coarse hound]

You can do all things through Christ, who strengthens you brother

[graceful portal]

Hey guys do we get another charge of part catalyst next week ? I have one part from raid and the catalyslm charge from 2K m+ idk if i can already get the 2 part now

[young reef]

just a quick question, assume ppl in sub disc would know

[tepid wasp]

ohhh they know, they just want you to read the FAQ

[left jetty]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[young reef]

bruh

just type "3" or 2" w,e it is

LOL

ffs

[oblique fable]

Shhhh no one tell em

[tribal crypt]

Bro is scared to click on the faq

Surely it’s not this hard lol

[verbal hedge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush olive]

how do we feel on the dragons fight 2nd shadow dance set just before the intermish? feels like its rng on whether you get full duration if they breathe to delay or go straight up

unsure if it feels better holding a few seconds to kill the add, not sure how badly it'll need to die come mythic

[stuck arrow]

I've just sent it, personally. Parses are barely Orange (but I also don't have 4pc yet).

It's definitely an awkward there. Add seems to die fast enough that better just to get more uptime and CDs in in think.

Might be different in mythic. Not sure.

[plush olive]

yeah I'm curious if the add is going to need some more killing power cus if so we do kind of time it well. Feels really bad to hold if the dragons end up spending like 6 seconds on other casts before they fly up though

[stuck arrow]

Yeah. Feels less bad than holding CDs for elephant on vanguard though. 😂

I figure will have to be played by ear.

[plush olive]

for the shield to interrupt? Didn't look too deep into vanguard tbh, wasn't the most interesting fight

[rocky barn]

8 targets

[lusty acorn]

Guys boss delve if i kill him this week give me myth crest and heroic? Like last week or not

[young reef]

so 7 is still evis?

@rocky barn

[stuck arrow]

I mean I don't think it's a particularly tight check, but missing it wipes the raid. Lol.

My guild bad at pressing tab, so I picked up slack. The little things that keep you off the bench in mythic prog even when your spec garbage.

[rocky barn]

Yes

[young reef]

ty pocketz

[stuck arrow]

You get 5 crests weekly.

[young reef]

kinda crazy 8 is the threshold

[rocky barn]

Evis real stronk

[young reef]

also why is my val locked? lol

im level 4 journey

i am on an alt but, how do i unlock it

to use my curious n stuff

[stuck arrow]

I think you need to get curio drops on this character?

[young reef]

na its been warbound for all my other toons

i also cant change her from tank to healer

[stuck arrow]

You talk to her in silvermoon?

[young reef]

yep

[stuck arrow]

Idk man. Unlucky. Maybe someone on Reddit has figured it out.

[plush olive]

per some reddit comment -
For anyone reading this -full relog did not work. Relogging to alt, opening delve journey, clicking on valeera, then relogging back to main fixed it.

[young reef]

yea pparently u gotta delete the cache

gonna see if it worked

yep it worked lol gotta delete cache

weird bug

[calm wing]

Small indie company

[young reef]

i think im gonna level a brewmaster monk tbh

[frail kindle]

GUYS MAX JUST MENTIONED BRINGING A ROGUE ON STREAM FOR ATROPHIC

HUGE

[young reef]

its hard finding tanks for m+

atrophic?

[calm wing]

the poison ?

[plush olive]

biiig

[young reef]

ooh raid buff

[jaunty heath]

you are kinda cooked on first boss if your raid have lot of adds padders with logs 😄

our adds die insta

[stuck arrow]

Raid in general is giving DPS players the healer log experience.

So many adds that kind of just fall over.

[jaunty heath]

or atleast thats how it feel like to me since we killed in first pull

[shy scarab]

so during BL on pull we send x2 dance+tech pretty much back to back, and after that we use 1 dance during blades and we hold the last one abiiiit for dance+tech right?

[jaunty heath]

if i had more than one pull i would delay dance sectech till adds gather

[stuck arrow]

It's 100% that way. To get a top log you need to burst the adds. Everyone gets more damage doing it. Whomever snipes big add damage first wins a good log and whomever doesn't gets a blue log. 😂

[paper flame]

with 4set and guidon in shadow blades, do you want to immediately send second shadow dance so you cover as much of shadow blades as possible with shadow dance, or do you want to sit outside of dance and hold it until sectech is nearly back so it gets supercharged?

[elder path]

guys does precharging supercharger prepull counts to apex optimalization? u know u have 4 supercharges at start u adapt it only to 2nd one or to all of them?

[jaunty heath]

yeah our RL put lot of emphasize killing big add fast, so i did not hold for small ones

i did not think boss will be so free

[limber folio]

not even 95

[placid crown]

Hello guys, for some reason the macro /cast coup /cast black powder doesn work anymore ??

[fossil forge]

r u in range for coup

[slate nest]

need range on mob and good los

[elfin hound]

where is the feint works on x ability sheet?

[shy scarab]

paaaaaaaaaad

[limber folio]

fake news

i only did 250k p1

[shy scarab]

i miss ethical guilds

ppl in my guild hold cds for adds only xD

[limber folio]

bro im ethical

i just pad with BP bro

[shy scarab]

mhm

[limber folio]

i dont hold cds for adds

[stuck arrow]

Why not?

👀

[limber folio]

bro

im not a hc log slave

i go for myth logs

[stuck arrow]

😂 I'll give it to you.

[placid crown]

didnt work for me during las figh

[hallow matrix]

!trinket

[limber folio]

i mean i got cucked out of r1 dimensius

[crude radish]

In context of using SS at full cp in shadow dance at 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques, to proc ancient arts, to then use finishers empowered by ancient arts

Can someone help me understand the following: "You don't want to empower Secret Technique because of how it interacts with the Apex talents."?

[earnest prairie]

!AA

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[crude radish]

I get that, thank you, but I wanted to understand the comment of "you dont want to empower secret techniques"

So if after all that, ancient arts procs, and secret technique is ready, its not ideal to use secret techniques in that moment?

As in, you wanna use the ancient arts proc for evis/coup before?

[tepid trellis]

its damage is calculated from the physical hit which does fuck all

[crude radish]

So pretty much make sure your ancient arts proc is being used by evis/coup or bp? Not sec tech

[tepid trellis]

well you just dont do the "force" apex

when its sectech

its fine if it just happens to natty hit it

[crude radish]

Ty sir

[elder path]

yo stealthi does pre pull supercharger also count to apex condition? its gain to gain apex 3 times on pull?

[smoky estuary]

i dont understand this only use evis if all checkmarks?

[vernal drum]

im at 11-12 around, no haste simed poorly 2.?? dps increase, in any case AOE or ST

[eager heath]

If everything is true (ex you have supercharged combo points AND you don't have an ancient arts up AND ...) shadow strike instead of BP/Evis

[lapis berry]

!spreadsheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[stuck arrow]

Trust the sim.

The haste breakpoint isn't like a true break point, more like a diminishing return.

Haste gets you more sectecs, more autos, more ShT procs, more energy, more combo points. Overall more finishers.

It's a good stat even after the break point, unlike before where it was literally useless. Just after the breakpoint it's relatively less valuable.

[swift jewel]

can i use a sword as offhand when playing sub? I'm outlaw normally and im considering switching

[stuck arrow]

But note that the sim slightly undervalues haste due to latency.

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[daring pike]

why are we meant to shadow dance Before Shad blades i thought it makes no difference?

[stuck arrow]

Do both at the same time.

[fleet acorn]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[vernal drum]

so, actually sim tell me that every mastery/crit increase my dps by 9/8 points, why should i run haste 😞

[crude radish]

Probably because sim undervalues haste because it assumes perfect latency and perfect execution no gcd downtime

If youre human, you need a bit more haste to make your cd overlaps better

[hazy breach]

Well the main value of haste is getting the extra gcd in dance

Which you will not get by increasing your haste from 10 > 12%

[vernal drum]

well,so if sims is wrong, why do we evn use it

i understand a bit more

but in this case, if i have the guidon (which sync perfectly with Shadow blades), do i still need to reach 18% ?

sorry to many question in my head

[stuck arrow]

Haste makes the spec playable, TBH.

It feels awful at low haste. Nothing lines up.

The sim isn't wrong - it's optimized for the end game and the best scaling option. You need to break through your current haste to get there.

Kinda annoying.

But sub (and rogue in general) has pretty well the best Sims in the game TBH. Major props to our TCs.

And yes. Want 700 haste baseline.

[hazy breach]

Its not wrong

That the stat weights just arent useful

[vernal drum]

thank you for your answers

[cursive tundra]

how do you play with guidon?

just dropped on hc

how much sooner do I have to press it before SD?

[alpine wraith]

depends on if you want to do the mega min max or not

around 1 sec or so should be fine

[keen chasm]

are we expected to fall off later in the season? talking about m+

cause atm I feel very strong compared to other specs

[alpine wraith]

we are not strong at all in complete consideration of other specs

[vale pine]

you use it roughly 1 sec before blades/dance

[alpine wraith]

but we do decent damage yes

[keen chasm]

well utility wise we were never strong :D

[vale pine]

i don't think we are insane atm

[drifting zinc]

We just pad well but every other class does everything else better

[twin quartz]

Sub has great burst

[vale pine]

we have burst immidatly

so we can pad on small fast dying stuff

[twin quartz]

And shadow dance feels stronger than it has in expansions

[cursive tundra]

so my opener is: shadowstrike into guidon instantly, then what? if I finish, I'll have no shadow techniques to rebuild combo points. so I just bing chill for a second or so?

and then go into burst?

[teal plaza]

Does sub feel good in keys? I was under the impression their lack of low target cleave would make them feel mediocre

And how does sub compare to the other specs

[stuck arrow]

Sub feels pretty good in keys. Definitely low target cleave kinda rough. Definitely some other classes slap a bit harder in AOE.

But sub is 100% playable likely up to 15s. If you're going for title might want to pick something else. But for 90% or more of use cases you'll be golden with Sub.

[neon pond]

Is it fixed that u can drop catalyst charges on alts if u have 4pc on any char?

[teal plaza]

Noted, thanks. And how does sub compare to thee other two specs, do you know?

[keen chasm]

there are some logs from +16/+17 where sub tops damage so it might be viable in high keys as well

[stuck arrow]

Not sure about Sin. I think it's kinda ass on low keys.

Sub generally better or equal to OL in most use cases for M+, a little less versatile. OL mostly better at priority damage and lower target counts - OL also likely scales to high level keys better - but their AoE target capped and sub is soft capped.

[stuck arrow]

I think Sub be fine there. Mdi type pushing stuff I think it's likely out classed though.

[teal plaza]

Ah, I'm rocking OL right now for a change of pace but it feels bad

[vale pine]

keys seem to be tuned low

but yes

subtlety can do good burst damage in groups which pull big

[cursive hamlet]

chat im happy

[vale pine]

we start to struggle more if stuff does not die fast

[vale pine]

congrats

[keen chasm]

theyre tuned low but on +17 I dont think packs evaporate

[full spade]

mob count aligned with blades matters a lot. like fuu said kinda relies on pulling big which will slow down a bit as people gear, then happen more as people are bis and comfy on content

by then tuning may change things

[daring pike]

can we get a bot command for the haste breakpoint?

[limpid sage]

I feel like I’ve asked before, but is FW dmg applied post or pre calculation? (As in before softcap, armor, etc)

[west bluff]

thanks blizz

[stuck arrow]

I think it's more that subs big advantage is consistency in keys. But at a certain point when packs last long enough you get real CDs on every pull - and Sub falls off. Damage just not there.

Sub good when other classes don't have a CD per pull though.

[distant lodge]

In algethar do we wanna pick haste or mastery from the dragons? Or does it depend on your haste state?

[shrewd lantern]

isnt the vers the only flat % buff

it was the best in df

[distant lodge]

oh could be! I have no clue 😄

[terse wigeon]

have we finally crossed the line where its so garbage that Atrophic isn't even worth taking us or?

[shrewd lantern]

on paladins at wf maybe

average guild not really

[versed fiber]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[chrome palm]

atro is at its strongest in rwf, so if it isnt being used there then its even worse for other guilds

[quiet lagoon]

What stat u guys take in AA?

[terse wigeon]

not gonna be another balance till after rwf i imagine

[shrewd lantern]

well outside rwf its like doesnt matter what you play

realistically

but yeah its rough rn

[jaunty heath]

everyone stacking ranged, we have 6 melee and 3 sit

and looking at liquid rn, that look even worse than trash boss in undermine

[olive remnant]

if i dont have a the on use haste trinket but with 4 set bonus, do i use second dance during blades when sec tec has 6 sec cd to use it at the end of the second dance?

[jade urchin]

bro wtf is dragon boss mythic

as melee

im in eternal suffering

[stuck arrow]

It's better than Paladins. 😂

[wind flicker]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[cosmic dust]

lucky with trinkets once

[jade urchin]

oh great

[jovial chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

^ this is a good point

atro is very good if heal requirements are tight

but once you have more loose requirements, you only rly care about it if you can drop a healer using it

rogue raid buff is poorly designed

[jaunty heath]

its just outdated

gotta rework it

[vivid phoenix]

give us a raidbuff that bosses cant parry anymore

[vale pine]

think raid buffs usually need to be obviouse in impact

the no parry is nice, but most ranged classes don't rly care

melee classes partly don't care as much too

because they have casts

[jaunty heath]

just give us crit

[vale pine]

could be critical strike damage, mastery buff or sth

[stuck arrow]

Or alternatively - make us less reliant on raid buffs. That's the other thing that's rough - we're more reliant on raid buffs than a lot of classes too. Hard to fit us into niche groups too.

[jaunty heath]

they could be creative with poison too but need to work globaly

[jade urchin]

sandbagging for us

[vale pine]

F

[lyric patrol]

Split it into a poison that gives either crit or mastery so you can bring 2 rogues

[jaunty heath]

its not just rwf problem, many guild just copy them even if it not apply to their progress level

[vale pine]

i mean its a general problem

[night sparrow]

guys

Deepening shadows bugged ?

[vale pine]

because people copy from what worked for guilds above them

[vale pine]

can say so

[jaunty heath]

echo already talked about rogue on their stream and its not looking good for crown of cosmios either

[vale pine]

if you mean this

[vale pine]

i mean i had the discussion with iirc guy in here

my point was, that the general viability of rogue would be worse with the heavy handed sub cleave nerf

but it was pointed out to me, that rogue is better of if sub cleave got nerfed because that means outlaw/sin take the niche

[jaunty heath]

liquid rn

how much more cleave rogue would have to have to be in 😄

[vestal relic]

except outlaw low target cleave got nerfed by like 70 %

[lyric patrol]

Max said he thinks rogue would top out at 120k

Pretty big diff

[jaunty heath]

5 heal boss and you dont bring DR in cos not worth

insane

[vale pine]

i don't think its super bad

but the decision to not do tuning before raid

[daring raptor]

sims say to go for crit vers neck. then i go down to 16,13 haste from 19%.

What you recon is best?

[vale pine]

means we had heavy handed tuning changes

[daring raptor]

the difference

[tepid trellis]

the nerf just made us worse on paladins than we already were
the main issue i see with sub on progress is honestly the dmg profile trickster brings, you either Evis and do fck all for cleave really or you BP and do fuck all for boss dmg
and our low target cleave dmg is just absolutely horrible

[night sparrow]

Noe, Deepening shadows gives me 0.00 extra second on dance

since hotfix 30mn ago

[vale pine]

just like it was in tww, right?

^^

[vestal relic]

the only spec that is not horrendous on low target cleave is sin and even then its not good by any means

[tepid trellis]

Assa is also absolutely garbage at it

[plush roost]

I mean u could evis in tww and cleave at least

[tepid trellis]

Sub dmg profile in TWW was insane for raiding

now, not so much

[civic lava]

Guild just upgraded me with a nice fat trinket, is it worth it to upgrade ?

[lyric patrol]

Kill our low target cleave make every fight low target cleave thanks Blizz

[karmic harbor]

is there a sheet showing what items drop from what dungeons?

[daring raptor]

jeeeeeeeeez

[hazy breach]

Try relogging or something

[daring raptor]

Anyone?sims say to go for crit vers neck. then i go down to 16,13 haste from 19%.

0.3% dmg increase

[vale pine]

i should have added a /s

[jaunty heath]

paladin is outliner i would be happy sit it, but were are sitted everyhwere so far is concerning to me

i need to find guild like Morli have who dont give F a give gear to rogues 😄

[vale pine]

subtlety is literally last in dps on paladins

[plush roost]

Maybe they see raid performance of rogue and do something for aoe and dont base it on MYTHIC 0 XDDD

[lyric patrol]

I doubt Liquid brings rogue on echo otherwise they wouldnt have sat him every fight except dagger one

Err cosmos

[vale pine]

its a bit of an irony

[hazy breach]

Deathstalker

[vale pine]

because the design goal was to keep subtleties strengths

not make it worse ^^

[hazy breach]

Well we went from one of the biggest bursts to middle of the pack at bursting

[vale pine]

yep

[hazy breach]

And we lost most of the flexibility of holding dances

Since more of our damage is in sectech now

[vale pine]

and we lost prio damage

with the nimble flurry rework

(while also doing worse with cleave)

requireing haste also means, we have less direct damage improving stats

[civic lava]

Got real lucky 😮

[hazy breach]

Idm haste being good on gear

But i dont understand why BL has to be awful

[shrewd lantern]

haste being good is icky

[vale pine]

its inconsistent

[hazy breach]

Like its just jank

[vale pine]

yep

why is haste interacting diffrently

for secret and dance

midnight tries to make things easy to udnerstand for the new player

[frail path]

I took it for granted BL would work with dance length. Still surprised it's not

[vale pine]

inconsistencies like this just cause confusion

[hazy breach]

The thing i wanted was BL and haste buffs from dungeons/raids being useful

[vale pine]

same

[hazy breach]

Instead i got haste caps from gear and the haste buffs got WORSE

[vale pine]

if there is a haste effect from affixes

or bloodlust

or a boss like in DF

[night sparrow]

TrI'm in raid, tried to reset game, update addOns

[vale pine]

it should impact our output

[night sparrow]

will try to disable every addon within 10mn when raid off

[vale pine]

try to delete the cache folder

might be some corruption there

[night sparrow]

I'll you guys know

[hazy breach]

And your dance is only 6 seconds?

[night sparrow]

yes

[hazy breach]

Like when you press it

Not tooltiop

[shrewd lantern]

dance should be a flat 30s cd

[night sparrow]

yes

[shrewd lantern]

if they wanted uniformity

[hazy breach]

Unlucky

[night sparrow]

Okay I swap spec

and it fixed it

I like this game 🥸

[hazy breach]

You mean naturally lining up with our 90s?

Nah bro

[shrewd lantern]

me when im holding buttons

because i wont have both dances in sb later

xddd

[vale pine]

try to spec in sin/outlaw

and talent back in and out of it

might help

[shy scarab]

Ey @vale pine during bl on opener we hold 2nd dance to line up sec tech , what do we do on the 2nd set of cds? Do we hold abit and send sec tech at 2 seconds left or shadow blades or?

[tepid trellis]

you do the same thing as you do on lust

delay the 2nd dance to supercharge sectech

[shrewd lantern]

isnt that with guidon

[jaunty heath]

backstab souping in blades

feels so good

[hollow spear]

This guidon thing is so cursed

Idk, make it 20 seconds

[hazy breach]

Even if you dont hit the extendo you still get your sectech earlier in dance because of the haste

[shy scarab]

Yea it felt… fucking criiiiinge

[hazy breach]

Youll be doing backstab soups in dance anyway

[shy scarab]

Thanks gangstah

[hazy breach]

Because dance aint long enough to cover 20s

[shy scarab]

True true

[tepid trellis]

even the sim sometimes doesent get the guidon snapshot

[hazy breach]

Its still worthwhile

[tepid trellis]

yup

[hazy breach]

Its also +-0 to do without guido

But since you lose more dance uptime during blades its not as good

[jaunty heath]

i prefer pressing dance on last 7sec of blades

it feel better

[shrewd lantern]

non guidon gamer

[jaunty heath]

but no impressed with extended blades

[shrewd lantern]

shit hasnt dropped

[tepid trellis]

havent done my splits this week yet

surely i go to the moon

after them

[shell willow]

When's the next tuning pass? We need another 3%

[solid vale]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[valid turtle]

Is wowhead not working for you guys? Won't load 🙁

[agile kernel]

the amount of mythic kills that just have no rogues at all is hilarious. And its easy to say that this is an issue only in the RWF guilds, but we are playing video games in the tier list era where we hyper efficency the fun out of a game. I honestly think this is going to be my last expansion playing rogue. Rogue needed a complete rework and they decided not to do that during the biggest shift in gameplay in a decade.

[night sparrow]

Yes that fixed the issue o/ ty ty

[steep loom]

!fuu

[shy scarab]

Stack MM hunter and gg😬

[ionic wave]

How are you guys doing cleave rotation for dragons and the double boss in windrunner? just spamming SS and BP?

[steel zinc]

Anybody not dooming here?

[bleak night]

me

i never doom

im having a lot of fun on spriest

[steel zinc]

Because if we dont get double digit buffs we are done

yeah spriest is nice

They gutted the cleave of all 3 rogue specs and the whole raid is basically cleave

[robust flame]

for someone who never played sub since cataclysm, is the current iteration easy to learn? I have always struggled to even try sub in earlier expansions

[steel zinc]

its braindead

Like in AOE you press 2 buttons 4 with cooldowns

I argue BM hunter is more complex

[stuck arrow]

Raid leader spec complexity, TBH.

Some complexity you can get in the weeds about, but it's not hard.

[robust flame]

I might as well try it then

I was just reading the wowhead guide but it seemed too simple so I had to ask but it really is that simple I suppose 😄

[exotic steeple]

wtf is that liquid stack

[steel zinc]

You press 4 buttons as core rotation

[steel zinc]

With current tuning you wont see any rogue on any boss that is not faceroll. The first 4 are pretty much faceroll. Atleast first 2 I played^^

[short radish]

mainly cba learning DS for one boss. I also was experiencing bugs on the UI when I was playing DS where combo points wouldn't update correctly

also DS is cringe and not pog champ

[steel zinc]

if all 3 rogue specs dont get double digit buffs its over no meme worst tuning for rogue in ages

[exotic steeple]

this is funny af man

[steel zinc]

You can play trickster on that fight whic his fine

[hazy breach]

Theres no way its double digit buffs lmao

[steel zinc]

There is no way all 3 rogue specs have this bad cleave

[hazy breach]

No amount of aura buff is gonna make rogues good on paladins

[fair phoenix]

btw noob quest

[hazy breach]

And thats fine

[short radish]

yeah I did. playing it on saladbar as well

[steel zinc]

yes but give us our tww cleave back

[quick marlin]

fair

[fair phoenix]

have any dif to enchant the order on enchats on weapon / off hand

[hazy breach]

Its just a dogshit boss

[quick marlin]

tyty

[hazy breach]

Literally none

[steel zinc]

true but also you wont play it on any serious boss too eleem

[short radish]

holy shit i never thought i'd miss it this much

[robust flame]

wow, sub is easier now than in cataclysm (maybe not but we're there). I mean I kind of do enjoy it while testing it out but does it get boring in m+?

[steel zinc]

yes cata was more dificult

[short radish]

not really. nothing has changed much in its rotation for m+

also in order to have high highs, you gotta have low lows

[steel zinc]

If they made actually nimble flurry decent again would fix a lot of stuff, same for caustic or blade flurry

[hazy breach]

Its absolutely not that bad

[short radish]

posting my hot shit take again

"i hope we see 0 rogues in the entire RWF so blizzard realises how dog shit of a position it is to not have a proper offensive raidbuff"

[steel zinc]

Idk where you get this but a whole pure DPS class wont be played. Its a fact with current tuning you are not even close to good on any fight in raid

Its been since Castle not this bad

Even in Aberrus you played rogue which was decent on most fights and actually very on some phases

I just think most rogues just accept stuff if this was the ret discord it would be closed

(cringe btw)

[short radish]

we are used to being ignored

[spare crypt]

being a buff bot would not fix the issue if a class with 3 dps specs is still not on the meter anywhere

[hazy breach]

Is it a fact

[tall girder]

Wooo fimb

[short radish]

yeah but it'd help

[hazy breach]

Perfecto literally did the most boss dps saladhar* (got me bosses mixed up)

[short radish]

woooo jontic

[spare crypt]

help with securing a token spot for 1 rogue in every raid is not the help i'd want the class to receive tbh

[short radish]

1 > 0

[tribal vortex]

Do we try to apex every finisher on BL now or is that gone ?

[spare crypt]

not even close to the definition of viability

[short radish]

it's not just in raid

well

it's also more it helps with class perception

not just in RWF

but in every single other aspect of pve

like in your random pugs

or in m+ (which we're acutally not terrible in tbh)

but class perception is that we bring nothing useful

[tall girder]

I’ve been declined from every key

[hazy breach]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[exotic steeple]

i feel like subs fine in m+ tho

[short radish]

being declined with 269 ivl is fun

[spare crypt]

i dont think it would be any different with a stronger party/raid buff

[tall girder]

Yea it’s swag

[short radish]

same, our damage is acutally really good there

[tall girder]

I was beating a 270 demo lock in my keys

[chrome palm]

boss damage seems really bad without proper buffs

[shell willow]

Our damage in m+ is gonna fall off a cliff when keys go higher.

[plush roost]

They should do what is as cringe as possible and buff our melees so hard that lust becomes a real damage increase and nimble flurry hits harder

[spare crypt]

we are badly tuned, we have no aoe stops, our damage reduction still costs energy for some reason in the big 2026

[exotic steeple]

just add a new spell that cleaves like 3 targets and lol

[hazy breach]

Our aoe is definitely not badly tuned

[spare crypt]

theres a mountain of issues to cope that a raid buff would help with anything

[tall girder]

If feint didn’t have an energy cost it would be the most broken thing in the game

[shell willow]

Maybe revert the potent powder nerf and buff nimble flurry idk

[short radish]

baby steps mate. im not saying youre wrong on any of those points and i've made them several times as well

[rain kernel]

what algethars buff for sub rogue?

[stuck arrow]

Our AoE is fine. There's just about 5 specs with giga busted AoE.

[hazy breach]

Vers

[short radish]

raid buff is just one of those problems

[rain kernel]

3% vers over 7% mastery?

[short radish]

i've malded multiple times that uhdk gets buffed 2 days after being below aug, while we need to wait 3 fucking months to get our singular aoe stop back

[spare crypt]

i see your point, but the thing thats worrying is instead of blizz taking baby steps to fix the issues, they even took away our aoe stop for keys

so theyre actively trying to make it worse

[night sparrow]

WEEEEEE

[exotic steeple]

did yarrgi go from m+ top ranker to main stack liquid? lol

gamer

[shell willow]

We didn't even have an aoe stop

[hazy breach]

Is sub not one of those?

[short radish]

my unhinged hot garbage take is that all the current blizzard devs (except one) is that they all grew up being ganked by rogues in vanilla pvp

now that they can do something about it, they want to make the class as dog shit as possible so no one plays it and they dont have to see a rogue ever again

[shell willow]

Haha @short radish I believe it

[stuck arrow]

Compared to like MM? Not in the slightest.

[olive canyon]

totally messed up my imperator log but we move on, itching to do some mythic progress next week

[uncut hinge]

I do think we are paying for some dev being stunlocked in 2007 yes

[olive canyon]

Subs aoe is defo top tier

[lucid jackal]

I think rogue is just undertuned

[plush roost]

Ik some ex blizz devs, youre honestly not far off. There is a genuine lack of interest in rogue

[lucid jackal]

IT happens sometimes

[olive canyon]

AOE M+ i should say

[south sedge]

What's the consensus on the Loas Worshipper Band myth craft?

[short radish]

there's undertuned damage wise, and theres undertuned utility wise

the former comes and goes, the latter has beeen a thing since 5ever

[exotic steeple]

very bad in an mmo setting

[plush roost]

Undertuned or underdesigned 8)

[wise fulcrum]

What's correct, the FAQ or Wowhead?

[stuck arrow]

Paying for my sins at Tauren Mill. All these years later. 😞

[shell willow]

That's fair but as a pure dps that's a bit unacceptable. Albeit we have 2 more tuning passes so I'll wait on buffs.

[olive canyon]

give me a crimson cloud - smoke bomb esque, 10% DR with crimsom vial being popped on all those in it. Tune the heal

[lucid jackal]

Im saying its not some grand conspiracy about being undertuned

[exotic steeple]

im honestly thinking were getting skipped tuning , received too many buffs in row

[short radish]

while i'm dropping my red hot garbage takes heres another one.

pure dps specs (like rogue) should always have one spec in the top 75% of the dps meters because if you only bring damage and you can't bring it then what else are you supposed to bring except negative vibes

[stuck arrow]

It's kind of wild - every class in the game has had more utility piled onto it since classic - we've had it stripped away in a lot of cases.

[exotic steeple]

we got shroud man most op shit ever

[tall girder]

I bring W vibes and zdps

[exotic steeple]

there are 0 true sight enemys

[steel wyvern]

rogue has W single target

login!

[stuck arrow]

And Smoke bomb!

Then they gave Smoke Bomb to DH.

And gave Mage a better Shroud.

Also literally they have Warlock in midnight Numbing poisons. 😂

[exotic steeple]

but our shroud has a circle

looks cooler

[short radish]

pretty sure enh shaman took our shuriken combo

[stuck arrow]

Hey, yeah.

Although I'll be honest not really mad about that one. 😂

[short radish]

also the fact that nothing will ever be neutered about MM hunters being this dominant on paladins

but we got absolutely dumpstered for zul

is also criminal

[shell willow]

Aren't hunters the 2nd most played class behind paladins?

Lol thats why they didn't get taken out back.

[stuck arrow]

"why don't people like playing rogue?"

Lol I wonder why.

[exotic steeple]

petition for new ranged rogue spec where we throw rasen shuriken and shit

[short radish]

i mean rogue is an outdated class in general with how energy works

[wise fulcrum]

Are you supposed to be totally energy starved after 2 minutes with sub? I'm tryingto learn

[short radish]

and has always been unpopular

[steel wyvern]

No

[short radish]

but its all these things that keep adding up as well

[swift tinsel]

Other specs make energy work

[wise fulcrum]

I'll go check logs

[swift tinsel]

Ours is just not a great iteration of it

[stuck arrow]

Rogue is the most popular class in Classic.

[hazy breach]

Outside of dance you are starved, inside of it you have infinite

[swift tinsel]

Sub is fine energy wise

[steel wyvern]

Did you read the wowhead guide?

[short radish]

and it's been downhill since then

[swift tinsel]

Other two could use some love

[wise fulcrum]

I did but not thoroughly

[steel wyvern]

You should be using a dance with sectech and getting capped globals inside dance, outside you pool resources for your next dance

[swift tinsel]

Rogue being very strong on Classic certainly helps

[uncut hinge]

wat

[strange chasm]

sub seems to be doing ok on salad

[exotic steeple]

but why is sub so ass on paladins?

[plush roost]

That is the best possible timings for sub

So id hope its good

[exotic steeple]

liquid wiped at 0.6 btw lol

[steel wyvern]

Because it’s 3 targets

[stuck dune]

Are you guys pooling st stacks before dance? I keep getting no apex

[steel wyvern]

The real question is why is outlaw complete dogshit on paladins

[junior ether]

what is the correct way of using this with our bursts?

[steel wyvern]

When that should be a fight outlaw excels at

[exotic steeple]

u think we would have a spot if blizz reverted the bp nerf?

[hazy breach]

Before every other blades

[steel wyvern]

No

[olive canyon]

you stand there like an utter idiot and cast it before sblades and dance

[junior ether]

shadowstrike - stand with puzzle - blade?

[hazy breach]

Ye

[junior ether]

tysm

[olive canyon]

Just embrace the idiocy then blast

[shell willow]

Haha

[stuck dune]

So you sacrifice puzzle casts and only use it with blades then

[wise fulcrum]

Oh my goodness..does sub really go 6-8 seconds without casting anything?

[short radish]

sometimes yeah

[hazy breach]

You cast backstab

[short radish]

it's great

[olive canyon]

basically yeh, 3 min cd in effect

[native hawk]

backstab soup

[stuck arrow]

You already said we don't cast anything though. Why say it again?

[wise fulcrum]

As a long-time oulaw player, it makes me feel ill haha

[short radish]

the downtime is unironically one of my favorite parts of playing sub

gives you a second to take a break

think a bit

stretch your wrists

[wise fulcrum]

I'm checking logs and this top log for sub has 130 casts, the comparitiv one for outlaw is 252

[short radish]

in order to have higher highs, you need to have lower lows

[stuck arrow]

Time to press feint before adds spawn with an AoE and you blast em.

[stuck arrow]

Agreed 💯.

[stuck dune]

How much haste you guys running .. my top gear sim told me 550.. do I listen or go 700?

[short radish]

i sit at around 700ish

[native hawk]

700ish

[stuck dune]

Ok

[hazy breach]

Fwiw the cast page on wcl double counts a lot of things

[fleet wharf]

is that before or after hunt? I'm guessing before?

[hazy breach]

So its not the most accurate

[winter nimbus]

Hey guys I always loved playing subtlety but I’m curious right now is it perform well in PVE content ? Or outlaw/or/ass is better ?

[exotic steeple]

best out of the 3 specs rn

[native hawk]

Im enjoying it and think its still blasting in m+ and most of the raid fights 👍

[marble onyx]

they're all looking pretty good. not s-tier (class) perhaps

[exotic steeple]

lol

[winter nimbus]

Nice 🙂 I don’t want anyway a Mets class juste want have fun 🙂

Meta *

[rugged rover]

my sims also tell me 550 always yet everyone says 700 - i don't get it :p

[winter nimbus]

And be able do high end content lol

[short radish]

based

[wise fulcrum]

oh yeah, I think it counts opportunity procs all as seperate casts?

[winter nimbus]

And for pvp sub still great to ?

[tribal vortex]

Yeah I know about the supercharged CP , just wasn't sure if the BL thing is still a small gain

[valid bluff]

any1 has the script that for raidbots that sims all flasks for my character to compare them?

[swift tinsel]

#tc-research message in here

[fleet wharf]

!loot

[unreal musk]

liquid not bringing any rogue to alleria

[acoustic ginkgo]

still no rogue on aleria no way

[gentle temple]

hahahahahahahah we r in a good spot

[analog hearth]

Imagine we don't get buffed on reset

That's diabolical

[steady cobalt]

They gotta give rogue an actual raid buff literally zero reason to bring, no group defensive, no lust , no cr, no raid buff

[umbral karma]

How important is the 18%haste?

[weak vector]

If I have 2 piece Tier right now and 2 cat charges, I should absolutely hit the 4 piece asap right?

[fallow anvil]

Probably a dumb question, but how does double acuity of the rendorei work? cause sims always suggest it over having the mastery on off hand. does it proc more often with 2, or does it double the agility you get when it procs?

[hazy breach]

Double agi

[spare crypt]

it should be 2 separate procs

that stack

[hazy breach]

Its not

the buff is just 2x as strong

[fallow anvil]

cheers ❤️

[spiral needle]

Why is the sim tossing in a shuriken storm during the second dance of sblades now that I have 4 set, wondering what the mechanic is or if its just super min max .0001% gain

[hazy breach]

#subtlety-faq message

[amber oak]

what's the best mythic build? Do you use the first dance, or do you take both potent powder, finality and veiltoched together?

[vocal rock]

We have poisons

[spiral needle]

is it this: there is a bug that makes it so you cannot cast :ShadowStrike: until roughly ~0.2 seconds after entering :ShadowDance:, whereas you can cast :ShurikenStorm: immediately.

[hazy breach]

yes

[spiral needle]

designed wrong as a joke, once again

[visual kettle]

hi! does anyone have a focus target marker macro for kicks i can steal

[strange chasm]

It is pretty crazy though they are on the last boss currently available and they haven't used rogue other than for the boss where dagger drops

[alpine wraith]

dont worry 1st boss of march may also have a rogue

it also drops a dagger

max did say that maybe they swap 1 priest to rogue

but i go to sleep now

[spiral needle]

thought I was seeing things doing backstab animation when dancing, can't believe that's a bug

[candid raven]

Wasn't that a bug that was present in past expansions? Didn't they fix it?

[hazy breach]

It was introduced mid DF

But its more egregious now since the duration of dance is tighter

[spiral needle]

been sin forever so I just didn't know about it

just make dance turn backstab into shadowstrike automatically already

[candid raven]

I had a macro with shadow dance and shadowstrike. I never paid attention if it worked tho

[exotic steeple]

sometimes i do backstab and see the animation but dont get the cp, is that also a bug or am i tripping?

bcs i swear i hear the sound of it

[celest night]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[potent frigate]

why am I playing click join to group simulator for 2 hours just to do 30% more dps than anyone else and then repeat the 2 min clicking simulator 🥲

[lucid jackal]

I said it all last weekish

Its just every ranged DPS is overtuned

Not kappa

[agile kernel]

u got to level your key, I had 4 groups in 1000 applications yesterday

[potent frigate]

I was dumb enough to level my guildies key. Now I am stuck with my lvl 2 key for this week and nobody will ever join it at this point. Better luck next week.

[agile kernel]

you are playing during the tier list era. They see yellow and you can be 270+ with 3k rating and not get an invite

[potent frigate]

Indeed. I am literally almost 270 ilvl with 3k rating and I am spending 2 hours in queue. Then they invite a DH who proceeds to die on every pack and ends the dungeon with 50k dps

[quaint remnant]

Team, is it worth it to craft the belt?

285

I was checking the guide

[plush roost]

I wonder if blizzard is satisfied or we see a big needle movement in 2 weeks when race is over

[quaint remnant]

I don't have nothing better to craft. Already have bis weapons

[lucid jackal]

They are doing tuning this reset

[exotic steeple]

no nerfs tho?

[plush roost]

They wont be doing big tuning

[lilac stag]

They usually don’t do big adjustments during race, maybe different this time.

[plush roost]

To "not disrupt the race"

As per their blue post

[lilac stag]

bring chaos to it

[gentle temple]

Rogue dev must be proud of his work

[lilac stag]

clearly tuning is great when you’re not bringing a class to nearly every fight.

[lucid jackal]

No shot man

[glass jackal]

I’d love to see a a 3-5% crit raid buff or something like that

[lucid jackal]

Where do u see that

[lilac stag]

Oh this drops a dagger. Token rogue fight.

[glass jackal]

Gotta give rogues some sort of raid wide buff

[lucid jackal]

Is this not saying "balance patch this reset"

Or

am I misunderstanding

[lilac stag]

so the one caveat to this maybe that every rwf guild has geared a rogue. So if they tune it really won’t have the impact of say nerfing the 5 MM hunters.

[exotic steeple]

what if they dont nerf sht just buffs

[plush roost]

Maybe we misunderstand eachother, ik theyre tuning tuesday, they wont be doing big tuning.

[frosty sinew]

nerf rogue

too op

[keen steppe]

I prog first boss myth today and i feel bad idk. We need damage on the add so i pump everything in it. But feels bad to be last bcs i focus the add and not cleave

[ripe flame]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[agile kernel]

i mean the problem is more foundational than that. but ya having 3.5% dr and a crit or haste buff would make bringing one at least mando.

[plush roost]

They still could turbo buff rogue i suppose, but i read shit like that as, "we aint touchin much shit, 3% here, 2% there"

[lucid jackal]

I'll take a 3% every week

[plush roost]

Hey man, me too

I think the disparity between classes is just more than 3%, hence i doubt its big tuning

Till after race

[exotic steeple]

thats sas

sad

[frosty sinew]

🙁

[glass jackal]

I think they could also do away with vigor as a talent and just give us 200 energy base

[bright beacon]

how much haste is ideal to ensure the full globals with internal server lag?

[spare crypt]

a bit more than 700 base

[glass jackal]

Or just buff energy regen rates. I hate being starved for energy constantly.

[spare crypt]

750-760 with oils should be fine

[subtle pine]

What are oils ?

[spare crypt]

the weapon consumables

they give haste

[spare crypt]

no diddy

[daring raptor]

im confused. why do my sims want me to drop haste.
It want to drop me down to 14.6% over being 19%

[spare crypt]

check sub faq

[potent heath]

i's worth to catalyst a Champ piece ?

or need to wait a Hero part in M+

[daring raptor]

when yo uget 4set they drop from bosses etc

[hazy breach]

If you can get 4p you catalyse for it, kinda regardless of what items you have

[potent heath]

ok lets go thx

[daring raptor]

yeah it says to be around 18% why are the sims then tellming me to ignore that htough

[exotic steeple]

ye crown dead before echo wakes up

[spare crypt]

with ideal server/latency scenario, you can catch all the needed globals on around 600 haste

[potent heath]

gg

[spare crypt]

you go up to 700 to account for any server delays, lag, etc

think of it like a hard breakpoint which you are buffering for

[forest void]

seeing mixed things, what is actually the best embellishment for a crafted dagger

[wicked fox]

Hi I pref to play Assa, but I have a lot more dmg on sub (so I'm playing it), is it normal or with equivalent gear and skill they can have equal dmg?

[dim pier]

I have a guildie i run raid with who is similar ilvl to me, he runs assa i run sub, he outdoes me every time but that also could be a skill issue in my part

[opal basalt]

It must be nice to have another rogue in guild