subtlety

[shrewd lantern]

isnt it a 6s buff

technically best but the difference is so minor

[tall tusk]

Why do we only want 1 acuity weapon enchant according to wowhead? Should I just sim?

[broken seal]

okay fine

[hazy breach]

Either weapon enchant is fine

[shrewd lantern]

i mean if you sim crit haste vs haste mast

i doubt the difference is higher than 0.1-0.2

[hazy breach]

I would recommend just getting 2x acuity for simplicity

[shrewd lantern]

get shitty mastery in offhand because im cheap

to blow a full 35k on a champ wep

[hazy breach]

Well the enchants stay after you recraft

[shrewd lantern]

i meant i put good acuity on the crafted wep

obvs

[hazy breach]

Ait ait

[shrewd lantern]

because they dont add new embellishes with new seasons

unless they break that trend

so its likely going to be optimal all expac

[west tide]

i fucked up and put the wrong enchants on the mh and oh

now i look unswagly

arcane mastery on the mh looks foolish

[mint portal]

someone did answer, so its allg

its just a tooltip bug

[tough coral]

is it worth doing only a 5 or 6 combo point secret technique or should i just wait to backstab one more time before letting it off?

[shrewd lantern]

you dont even take tricks in pvp

[vale pine]

agi usually falls off over time, and secondary stats become better

[tough coral]

if im energy starved

[shrewd lantern]

blackjack is too strong

[vale pine]

🙈

[mint portal]

might not be if that tooltip was true 😛

[shrewd lantern]

ok it'll at least last until season 2

probably?

[limber folio]

yalla

[west tide]

6+

[limber folio]

5 chimaerus trinkets in 3 splits

not bad

[tough coral]

🫡

[shrewd lantern]

i mean tricks buff is longer than 6s by default

which is the talent's buff duration

[thorny rivet]

Did you get one

[vale pine]

i mean, even then, the diffrence is very minimal

[limber folio]

nah im tomorrow

[mint portal]

yeah but if it was 1 hour...

thatd obv be worth taking

[limber folio]

surely itll drop tomorrow

Clueless

[thorny rivet]

[limber folio]

we had 3 drop the split before

and 2 now

[shrewd lantern]

yeah i mean in tww we didnt drop radiant until s3?

[shrewd lantern]

me when i see purple loot for myself

and its shitty housing items

[mint portal]

is slice n dice a passive thing for sub now aswell, or do we just not use it?

[shrewd lantern]

applies on your first evis

[frail bone]

I believe all rogue specs now do it passively

[shrewd lantern]

so basically

maybe its worth to storm snd while your tank is gathering

idk

[vale pine]

💰

[mint portal]

on evis though? does that mean in aoe wed need to make sure to do at least one evis?

[shrewd lantern]

yeah on the gather

[mint portal]

gotcha, ty

[shrewd lantern]

coup also applies it

[tulip viper]

cleared normal and 1st hc tonight on outlaw

the dps felt awful

we any confirmed theoerycrafting on best raid spec currently?

[vale pine]

statistics kinda show the problem

rogue isn't a top performer

[fallow nimbus]

Sub felt awful too

[shrewd lantern]

can you even theorycraft that

dont theorycrafters just do numbers

[bronze terrace]

Hey! Could someone help me review my logs?

I'm struggling with low parses (~40 overall, ~10 ilvl) across all bosses, and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Spec: Sub
Logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/ZQcBt2rg4pWx3wky?fight=3&type=damage-done

I'm pretty new and still learning the rotation, and I also don’t really know how to read logs properly yet.

If anyone could point out what I should focus on (uptime, cooldown usage, rotation, etc.), I’d really appreciate it!

[vale pine]

wdym, tc's are players as much as everyone else is ^^

subtlety gets the most of all 3 from tier set

[hazy breach]

We do that anyway

Because Darkest Night or Coup de Grace

[vale pine]

so maybe that helps a bit

but the cleave nerf huts quite a bit

especially given how many cleave figths there are

[shrewd lantern]

well isnt the point mostly what is theoretically best based on training dummies etc

idk if tcing with encounter design is a real thing

[vale pine]

well its like this

the game is the baseline

a simulation is essentially a re-creation of the games mechanics

[mint portal]

oh yeah good point

[vale pine]

so you have the "theorycrafting" aspect of mapping how things work the same way

[daring pike]

is there a log review channel?

i need sum help

[fallow nimbus]

Blizz should revert our cleave nerf, the 3 pala boss was just horrible

[vale pine]

then there is the apl, which is designed to optimize the rotaiton

[shrewd lantern]

yeah im fine with them nerfing bp spam

but i dont think they had to hit cleave

[vale pine]

both in combination try to mimic the game as close as possible, to get reliable results

[shrewd lantern]

hmm yeah

raid just seems it'd be hard to mimic

[vale pine]

simulations are not trying to 1:1 map each players decision making

[shrewd lantern]

too many human caused variables

[distant palm]

anyone know if sapling of the dawnroot is the biggest bait trinket ever or no? did stupidly little damage on my logs

[vale pine]

(also because thats impossible, everyone plays slightly diffrent)

[shrewd lantern]

this is why i said the human factor

like how sims can play specs like outlaw flawlessly

[vale pine]

but theorycratfing is basically, the aquisition of knowlage via simualtions, math, gameplay and discussion.
In an attempt to then share results

[stuck arrow]

Simulations are just models. No model will be perfect.

Having a sim still better than not having a sim.

The world is run off models. Bridges are built using imperfect models of physics & strength of materials that get close enough.

[vale pine]

the sim emulates a lot of latency/lag too

[waxen lintel]

!sims

[wicked jolt]

Simulations:
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lone jay]

Hello ! If you have enough haste to use your second secret technique during the second dance, do you use it then ? Or do you wait for the third Dance to benefit from Forced Induction?

[vale pine]

let me quick explain this

basically, any simualtion is designed to be able to do what a human can do

[shrewd lantern]

the human can do it

doesnt mean they will

😂

[vale pine]

so things humanly impossible won't be implemented/added

for outlaw, its just, then more complex the logic gets

[shrewd lantern]

doesnt the sim just input what theoretically is possible for a human to input into their machine

as a gameplay action

[vale pine]

then harder it is to execute in a short amount of time

like

you had weakauras to help you before

which made the process easy

now without weakauras, its a bit more difficult

i don't know the current min/maxes of outlaw out of my head

so can't comment on how hard it is to paly up to the level of a sim

or lets say close to it

^^

[frail bone]

I noticed last night in raid I after sending CDs getting third dance and sectech back up as shadowblades is ending. Do we start to wait to pool more sht prior to dumping that sectech dance window.

[lilac stag]

Use !log

[still gazelle]

When a fight starts, I'm supposed to be able to fit two Shadow dances into my shadow blades, right? But my second secret technique would be after those both fall off right?

Until I get the four piece I guess?

[bronze terrace]

!log

[frail bone]

! breakpoints

[supple barn]

I guess i trolled somehow, i am rank 3 prey with 3 normals left and people doing nightmares already :()

:(**

[still gazelle]

!breakpoints

[dire ravine]

i think i messed up somewhere

[sleek musk]

!MACRO

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[mint portal]

is there a way to only track coup de grace? when i put it on cd tracker, it tracked the stacks too which i didnt want

and any alert i put on it goes off when i get 1 stack

which literally ruins the entire point of having the alert

[lilac stag]

Track evicerate is only “hack”

[mint portal]

what do you mean

[west tide]

ermm theorycrafters i just asked chatgpt “find me 20k dps in this apl, no mistakes” and lets just say im about to pop off

[daring pike]

!log

[marble sail]

[chrome palm]

if you have arcui/ayjie cd, you show the text for coup de grace superimposed on the eviscerate "cd" icon, while setting the opacity of the coup de grace buff icon to zero

[wide ravine]

How big was the nerf for sub in m+ I’ve been on vacation what happened to us 😩

[chrome palm]

10%

[wet jacinth]

Yo quick question in preperation. Is there any merit in holding my sectec longer than 1-2 seconds (lets say the timing is weird and i would need to hold 7-8 seconds) to dump it into aoe ? or is the potential to screw my timeline up too high ?

[daring pike]

!log

[stone vessel]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/eu/aggra-portugues/dsanic can someone go over my logs and see what I'm doing wrong? Got low parses on the first three bosses. idk if it's lack of consumables and enhancements or some mistakes I'm not aware of

[sleek socket]

how do i know how many item i buy with haste, so it scale to 20% when ilvl go up?

[woeful hare]

does first dance affect the buff from the deepening shadows talent? While I don't have first dance I have 1.66 on deep shadows but 2.22 secs while I have first dance

[warped fox]

Is fiber of living agony not a good trinket? Its not showing up on wowhead, icyveins, or bloodmallet

[lofty path]

sorry if this is a noob question, but I see that vessel of tortured souls is considered S tier on the wowhead guide, do y'all have any advice or know if there is a way to track the trinket?

[oblique spade]

Hey, I only pop Dance when ST is up or when ST + SB is up right?

[lofty path]

I'm having a really hard time trying to find the orbs in a fight, and I don't know if I'm even hitting the orbs half the time

[crystal quiver]

Is there a way to adjust sim of puzzlebox to where its used after the fight starts or to remove 2sec or so of duration?

[hazy breach]

You mean before i guess?

But its not worthwhile

[near hemlock]

Are sims on Raidbots matching?

I got the AA trinket + Emberwing feather, but they're not simming any better than COEE at the same item level

For ref

I just assumed a bigger difference

[oblique spade]

was wondering this too, sims on raidbots + bloodmallet seem different

[hazy breach]

2 min trinkets aint that great

Its just the least bad option

And stuff like the renown trinket aint available at higher ilvl

[tulip light]

tbh just play w/e trinkets and get guidon asap as on use. guess puzzle box for m+ , everything else (on use) is just meh imo

[quiet condor]

Hi, should i use catalyst on a champion piece or hold it?

[solemn mauve]

fuu

/suu

/fuu

[stoic flower]

Pick your poison: two passives (Vessel of Tortured Souls + heroic Gaze of the Alnseer) or a 2min active (Void Execution Mandate + H Gaze of the Alnseer)

[tulip light]

you should get 4p ASAP because once you have it you can loot charges from dungeons etc

[lucid jackal]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hushed roost]

does the dungeon catalyst drops have a max ?

[tulip light]

not that im aware of. dont know droprate tho

just that its possible to loot

does anyone have the string to sim craft / embells?

[radiant swift]

whats the play with puzzlebox? just use it every other blades or just put it in bin

[hazy breach]

Every other ye

[radiant swift]

i aint waiting 30sec

[midnight pond]

Love the M+ sub nerf when every mage in my groups is doing 80k overall

[tulip light]

@radiant swift check fuu sims. it feels super shit but apparently isnt that bad

[radiant swift]

its realy good but a bit aids

[lusty acorn]

How sub rogue fell noe aoe ass? Or good

[lusty acorn]

Now^

[safe tundra]

why does it stealth me if the puzzle box puts me out of deatlh

stealth*

omg

[tulip light]

you puzzle box after first strike

[safe tundra]

so i stealth, first strike and then use puzzle box?

do i use a finisher or like whats up here

[tulip light]

strike box go on as usual

[safe tundra]

sure

i was pre pulling puzzle box but ig it makes sense so i can get a guaranteed full combo points

[tulip light]

stike box gives u insta full cp to work with and you dont waste any uptime on box

[safe tundra]

ye

ty!

[solar spruce]

damn maybe enough time hasnt gone by but seeing all three rogue specs at the bottom of warcraft logs stats is sadge 🙁

[short radish]

hahahahaha no shot UDKs get buffed

[livid blaze]

Is Puzzle box a bad trinket it sims for me worse than the Champ trinket from renown on dungeon slice

[fair stump]

The only time we send a shadow dance without sectec is on the second dance during blades, right?

[dense coyote]

Hey I’m on alleria Windrunner what are the best talents ?

[tulip folio]

how much gain is 2p and 4p

[fair stump]

We hold sectec until dance comes as well, right?

[tulip folio]

anyone know

?

[glass rock]

dumb question here but im a bit confused, when i want to add potent poiwder to my talents do i take the point out of weaponmaster / veiltouched / that 1 point that is in finalty

[hazy breach]

Ye just do it after strike

[hazy breach]

A lot

Like 9/4 respectively

[tulip folio]

https://giphy.com/gifs/patrick-speech-bubble-ptmTbJgwq1cWT1qqWO

[dense coyote]

What talents for aleeia ?

[tulip folio]

ill just pretend i know what does 9//4 mean

rt

ty

[hazy breach]

%

[oblique spade]

9% for 2p, 4% for 4p

[random mason]

9% and 4%

[tulip folio]

ohh okay 😄

[shrewd lantern]

was there a cutoff where its ok to send champ crests into m0 gear again

[oak hearth]

Does Chimaerus have adds

[hazy breach]

Its mostly adds

[oak hearth]

bet

[ripe flame]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[glass rock]

no one?

[oak sorrel]

if you're able to farm i think 8+ keys or higher to drop hero track gear, champion crests become obsoleted

so you can send them for early power

[hazy breach]

Generally weaponmaster, but it kinda doesnt matter because all of those points are whatever

[glass rock]

tanks

thanks

[tulip light]

eleem do you happen to have the paste to sim embellishments?

[hazy breach]

No, but you can press the + in topgear to easily change them

[tulip light]

will check thx

[fair stump]

bump

[shrewd lantern]

i mean we cant do keys this week so i assume its for next week

[silver solstice]

for pvp builds what % do you guys back off on mastery?

I'm at 39% right now, should I divert to crit as often as possible or just all in on the diminishing returns?

[soft summit]

Should we just use our champ crests on upgrading gear? I’m not sure it really matters to save them to upgrade to 6/6 after we get a hero track piece just to save 20

[stoic flower]

Hey sorry for stupid question, would it be better to play two passive trinkets (champ Vessel of Tortured Souls + heroic Gaze of the Alnseer) or a 2min active (veteran Void Execution Mandate + H Gaze of the Alnseer)?

[tulip light]

saving 20 on hero items is very good in theory but you get 3/6hc items from farming 10s so in that regard its kidna w/e. you usually do the following - dont send champ - clear the raid as far as possible - send champ items if you get to the last bosses and got some loot already

[soft summit]

Yeah, and having the highest item level you can have will help with farming 10s

[tulip light]

that as well. the time you send them just depends on how min/max or try hard you want to go

after m+ unlocks nothign of all that will matter

[soft summit]

The hero crests you get from purchasing the bags with champ crest go toward youre weekly cap anyway rigbt?

[tulip light]

yes

[tawny plume]

is there any nice cdm links?

[lyric iris]

double use for te win? or not

[pearl iris]

2p is around 7.5% and 4p is another 4.5ish%

[pulsar hemlock]

Are we whetstone or phoenix oil enjoyers?

Oil right?

[long marlin]

is wowhead up to date for best encahnts/ i remember reading something about double acuity a few days ago in here

[stuck arrow]

Depends on your gear. Take a look at raidbots.

[modest delta]

vesseel is missseraabbble

[stable viper]

!craft

[modest delta]

puzzle box is so annoying bc its a cas

[velvet grotto]

With a 2 min cd like puzzle box do you hold it till your next Shadow Blades?

[swift tinsel]

Use with every other

[velvet grotto]

Thats what I figured, tyvm

[oak hearth]

when are yall using puzzle box during raid fights

[swift tinsel]

Typically if you get a 2min trinket you pretend it’s a 3min trinket

[oak hearth]

oh bro asked the same questio

ok W

[modest delta]

anyone have any addon or something ot help with vessel?

i cant see em in raid lol

[fleet acorn]

okay and now? only crafting and enchanting left? and upgrading all veteran gear only ?

[oak hearth]

also does sub wanna go phase 1 or phase 2 on chim

[tribal orchid]

What’s the addon that shows the Ilvl and whether or not there’s an enchant

[ivory swallow]

In the raid boss lightblinded vanguard should I use black powd or evis?

[alpine wraith]

powder

[ivory swallow]

thnks bro

And the talents keep the raid from the guides right

[eager latch]

do we black powder on 2 targets

[ivory swallow]

Dude sub is so bad at this fight or is just me?

hahahahaha

Damnnnn I was doing good in all bosses so far, but those 3 bosses no damage at allllll

BP in 3 targets seems so bad

[warm marlin]

as trickster no

[eager latch]

we evisc?

[warm marlin]

unless you have potent powder and a lot of mastery

yes

very sad st evis

[ivory swallow]

And on 3 target always BP?

[warm marlin]

ye

[tulip light]

anyone else simming very little gain from arcanoweave (talking < 1%) even going from 250 belt -> 259

[frozen sphinx]

for chimareus if you are first soak as sub do we just not pop anything until we go down?

[inner prairie]

I probably have a stupid question: Did raid last night, parses were atrocious so doing some work 'cause i'm not okay with the performance. That being said, when in Shadow Dance and at full CP if AA isn't procced, am I ALWAYS Shadow Striking to get it up before sending a finisher or just for the empowered ones?

[hazy breach]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[inner prairie]

^ This I know, which is why I started doing it, but if no Darkest Night or supercharged CP, then we send the finisher right?

[hazy breach]

yes

[inner prairie]

Awesome, thank you for the clarification.

[native parrot]

This is good to know

[vernal granite]

is the rotation still the same as it was before the patch?

[young harness]

as someone that has only played trickster is deathstalker super different or is it ez to pick up

[frosty bramble]

Doesn’t really matter but if you wanted you can go first then chest into the second one.

[soft grotto]

u have to shuriken after shadow dance

so u do shadow strike > eviscerate > shadow dance > shuriken storm > secret tech

[young harness]

is that it?

if its just that i can manage lol

[crystal atlas]

Do I hold blades for 2m trinket

[inner prairie]

2 min trinkets are held to sync with blades so every 3rd blades if I recall someone answering earlier today.

[lavish hull]

Do you only dance twice in your first Sblades?

When i try to for a second my sec tech gets delayed

and im assuming thats bad

[swift zinc]

Habe someone a guide whats the best items atm for sib rouge

For stats

[inner prairie]

WoWhead has a BiS list but you should always sim yourself.

[swift zinc]

Yeah but it shows the best items in the game i mean for now you know ?

Befor m+

[inner prairie]

It shows the best setup if you had everything perfect, yes. But to see if an item is going to be an upgrade for your character itself it's always best to sim it.

[swift zinc]

oke thanks bro

[supple barn]

Is there a guide for using crests I need to understand this system so I can upgrade stuff

[flint sundial]

the crest save is that you can upgrade the previous tier to max before the higher tier to 2/6 for a save on the higher crests (e.g. upgrade champ to 6/6 before hero to 2/6 to save 20 hero crests)

[glass rock]

3 lfr 6 nhc 3 hc and chima nhc and hc killed for one lfr loot xD damn this not my week

[west tide]

are the eys of the eagle enchant the same at both rank

it says 1%

[warm marlin]

no it rounds to 1%

its like 0.75 and 1.25 or 1 and 1.5 or smth

[brazen stone]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/dont-waste-your-crests-by-upgrading-a-piece-of-gear-from-1-6-to-2-6-380822

[brave monolith]

can you use puzzle box before pull

im guessing not

[hazy breach]

Just use it after the first strike

[chrome palm]

@warm marlin 🫃 winners win

[warm marlin]

wthelly!

[hollow raptor]

wow some of these bosses feel awful to fight as sub

[copper river]

Is the Emberwing Feather pretty decent? the guides and stuff have it pretty highly rated, but how is it in practice with the negatives?

[left ledge]

did you just fight the paladins

lmao

[hollow raptor]

we're on paladins

lol

[left ledge]

yeah

its a terrible boss for sub

[hollow raptor]

dragons did not feel good either tbh

[left ledge]

dragons!?

dragons is crazy good for sub

thats pad central

[hollow raptor]

cannot

my team just kills adds insta

no padding on my end

[left ledge]

huh

[hollow raptor]

our warrior and ranged blend them instantly

[left ledge]

you can just insta sectec

an bp

i was going to top dragon then i rotted

[placid lynx]

do we use black powder on 2 targets?

[hollow raptor]

ill figure it out for mythic

i cba parsing heroic and normal

just felt awkward but i got put on the flyer

[valid ocean]

is the 18% haste breakpointthe amount of haste to fit two SecTechs into shadowblades?

[hollow raptor]

so prob just swap me to ground dragon and i wont hate my life

[dense coyote]

Why dos sub feel so bad in raid if like lowest on the meteers every fight 🙁 and and I feel like I’m doing my rotation correctly is where I’m messing up

[hollow raptor]

i miss pressing actual buttons

and not just like 3 buttons

[dry surge]

is this trink absolutely impossible for anyone else to actively see with all the other visual noise happening in raid

[thorny ridge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[swift tinsel]

free from vessel prison

[swift tinsel]

it sucks I hate it and I'm so glad I don't have to use it anymore

its fine for m+ but in raid its next to impossible to see

[dry surge]

I have like 3 other trinkets but Vessel just sims so high

Wondering if it's worth to just swap it anyway since I can't even see the orbs 90% of the time

[swift tinsel]

if you aren't getting 4+ souls consistently its value drops

or having it stacked to 4+, rather

[dry surge]

ok that's good to know

[swift tinsel]

its kinda bait

[dry surge]

hella bait

[swift tinsel]

bc in practice you aren't gonna be hitting that

[dry surge]

esp since im getting juked by my unh dks procs every 5 seconds

thinking they're orbs

[swift tinsel]

yeah the similar spawn vibe is pretty troll

bc they have close colors and effects when they spawn a lesser ghoul and when one of the vessel spirits spawns

[hoary sun]

yo does anyone know if secret tech is ever used outside of shadow dance, and if not how tf do i line them up

[dry surge]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[dry surge]

double check guide i think fuu says to use it under certain conditions

[still gazelle]

Swapped to Sub last week

Heroic stone boi

Thank you Discord

Eleem/Fuu

[dire ravine]

it does nothing for the haste?

[still gazelle]

Mine did

That 's not right

[dire ravine]

Whats the hste go to?

[strange chasm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[spiral steeple]

can I get better than a champion track puzzle box?

or is that the max

I assume I can get more in higher mythic levels

eww this thing has a cast time?

wtf

[astral ibex]

Guys, what is the best place for I see my bis itens?

[inner prairie]

Thats the max currently. M+ doesn't start until next week - And even then you'll only be able to farm a hero track one and have to hope for a myth on in the vault.

[warm marlin]

more heroic parses than ret 🤔

[swift tinsel]

that..can't be right

[short radish]

sub is fixed

https://tenor.com/view/martin-scorsese-absolute-cinema-absolute-cinema-meme-martin-scorsese-meme-martin-scorsese-absolute-cinema-gif-7188464701423971028

[long marlin]

sims want me to drop my haste pretty low on patchwek 5 min sim....hmmm

[real delta]

nm skill issue

[short radish]

why are you trying to do that

dont do that

also which part is breaking

[charred thunder]

Okay so Algethar puzzle box feels HARD to play around... Does it feel like that to anyone else?

Or am I just a doofus?

[white tapir]

is there a way to tell in logs if your overcapping on combo points

[short radish]

having to cast a trinket on rogue does feel bad, yes

[near hemlock]

!Apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[short radish]

yes - go to resources

[near hemlock]

Can somebody explain the science for this haha

[charred thunder]

Do you think it's worth running or should I just skip it? I am tempted to skip it because it's pissing me off lol

My sims say it doesn't gain much but sims seem a little borked to me rn

[short radish]

do whatever you want man, it's a free world

if it makes you angry

then dont use it

[charred thunder]

Well sure, but I could be talked into it if it was like really good

I'm just wondering if it's good enough to be worth being annoyed with

[short radish]

it's a pretty good on use

thats a pain in the ass to use

and also doesn't sync

[short radish]

this is entirely subjective

[white tapir]

oof. i have 115 wasted combo points in premeditation

[short radish]

some ultra sweatlord could come in here and say "yeah it's 100% worth using"

and some casual mcandy would say "nah idc about 0.5% dps"

[charred thunder]

True, I guess I'm in the middle

[past flax]

is this only on the app or the web also?

[charred thunder]

I hate on use trinkets just as a concept

So maybe it's worth skipping esp since it's so annoying

[short radish]

on use trinkets are fine, it's just the channel thats a pain

[charred thunder]

But also I am a toxic parse fiend

[short radish]

if i wanted to channel i'd play a caster

[spiral steeple]

So probably safe to max out my champion track version

[short radish]

or outlaw rogue i guess

[spiral steeple]

I just REALLY hate the cast time

[short radish]

didnt even know theres an app

[charred thunder]

Big true

[short radish]

like for example take

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[short radish]

idk what it is now

but at one point it was "only" worth 0.4%

[spiral steeple]

Blizzard needs to never give melee dps a trinket with cast time again

[short radish]

to a lot of people that's really not worth doing

because it feels bad to play around (still does)

but it's still a gain

[past flax]

i see this for some reason 🙁

[short radish]

select yourself

[spiral steeple]

Oh nice bro we're both bitching about the same thing

[short radish]

also some general tech advice, when asking for help, please always send the full screenshot.

to diagnose your issue, typically the issue is not actually shown in the partial screenshot you took

[wind token]

is sub hard to play? or smooth

[short radish]

smooth as medium peanut butter

[wind token]

confused about secret technique stuff

[short radish]

think of it as combo points you store in the bank

that can be withdrawn on certain occasions

[wind token]

wish we still had WA 😄

[short radish]

same

my entire raid night was so fucked

came in late so missed normal clear

[cold citrus]

can you not use this Algeth'ar Puzzle Box trinket with other on use trinkets?

[short radish]

timers absolutely fucked so didnt know when anything was spawning

[spiral steeple]

It has a cast time

You're the third person to complain in 15 mins

[cold citrus]

so after its cast it puts the other on use on cd for 20 sec?

[spiral steeple]

Not sure

[short radish]

all on use trinkets do that

[spiral steeple]

I thought you were asking about macroing

[cold citrus]

oh so you cant stack on use trinkets

[short radish]

no (in most cases)

[cold citrus]

rip

[tall girder]

Fimb can u coach me on all the bosses i raid tonight

[short radish]

lmao no

i have no fucking clue what to do

just uhhh

make sure you have sblade for saladbar

which is at like 1:40

thats all i remember

[tribal blade]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[spiral steeple]

Don't get tic tac toed

[willow pawn]

17% haste am i doomed?

[spiral steeple]

You're cooked start over

[rare thicket]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[faint gorge]

when would we use puzzle box?

[short radish]

before shadow blades

[faint gorge]

it has a cast time right?

[native parrot]

Wait we gotta play with boxes now

[short radish]

yes

[short radish]

you can.

[lapis zenith]

Whats the best way to play with puzzle box in M+? Do we just use it on CD or should I only use it with SB? If so, which one am I holding to align them?

[short radish]

dont hold sb

press puzzle box every 3 minutes

also use an extra braincell to decide that "oh hey sblade came up but the pack is gonna die in 8 seconds maybe i hold"

then you might be able to hold for a bit longer and cast puzzlebox/sblade at 2min

but if youre pressing things off cooldown you dont hold blade

[lapis zenith]

cool thanks mate,

[short radish]

no wukkas

[west tide]

haste flask

haste food

[west tide]

me when the straight police give me a warning

[high grotto]

with lust do we send the ST when we have like 1 sec left on SB

[brazen forge]

hi

There are spells that need to be added to the cooldown manager.

[swift tinsel]

like?

[brazen forge]

shadowstrike , shurikenstorm

[short radish]

okay thank you for this information. I'll forward it onto blizzard

[swift tinsel]

out of curiosity, what would be gained from tracking them?

[brazen forge]

Thank you for your interest.

[swift tinsel]

as they don't have a cooldown, or a duration

[brazen forge]

Yes, it doesn't have a cooldown, but like the action bar, you need to constantly monitor it during the fight.

[swift tinsel]

as opposed to your energy?

which is what indicates if you can cast them or not

[brazen forge]

I'm tracking my energy, personal resources are working great, but all the spells I use need to be in the cooldown manager, like in Fury Warrior, for example.

[swift tinsel]

do you track whirlwind?

not the stacks, the ability

fury warrior's rotational rage builders (bloodthirst and raging blow) have cooldowns

whereas subtlety's do not

so I don't really see the point in tracking strike or storm

if you're aware of your energy, you don't need to track them

[subtle gazelle]

is opener with puzzle bux prepull cast> stealth > opener?

[swift tinsel]

tangentially, if you're in cooldowns you have infinite energy so there's even less of a reason to track them

[brazen forge]

My goal is to see spells that don't have a cooldown period, but also to see the cooldown manager for the spells I use.

[swift tinsel]

but they don't have a cooldown to manage

so why do they need to be in the cooldown manager

[brazen forge]

Shadow Strike has no cooldown, but you can't use it constantly, and it only appears active when you're using it; otherwise, it's inactive.

[swift tinsel]

so why track it

you know when its available

if you track dance

[narrow shadow]

Track shadow dance instead

[brazen forge]

ok

[spice crag]

for puzzle box, do you use the 2nd use on cd with dance+st, since it's only up for the 1st blades, or do you hold blades 30 seconds for the second trinket use?

[lucid jackal]

nop

[spice crag]

to which lol

[lucid jackal]

U do not hold blades

Sorry

[spice crag]

do we pop it on cd then after 1st use?

[tall girder]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[small vortex]

are you supposed to use second dance immediately after the first ends in blades or do you hold for any amount of time if sectec is about to come up

[bright sundial]

hello guys question is it ok to use arts on coup in aoe or only bp?

[steel zinc]

During dance B2B dance

[small vortex]

Are you able to sectec during the second dance or do you just hold till dance is back

[lean sigil]

do we craft belt this week or wait?

[supple vine]

we did it :3

[torn tide]

holy shit lol ggs

what ilvl are u btw?

[supple vine]

255 just got 2 set

we also killed first 3 of other raid

[verbal kelp]

Hello, how do we use the puzzle box in opener? Do we shadowstrike>puzzle>shadow blades? And we always pair it with shadow blades?

[near hemlock]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[blissful gale]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[rose spade]

is there a reason why my sim is weighing haste higher than my other secondaries when im at 25%. Should i still aim for ~18 or a bit higher

[raven maple]

I saw this on wow head.

We usually stack cooldowns. You can use the following macro to combine them:
If you want to use everything in one macro, you can use:
#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Secret Technique
/use Tempered Potion
/use 13
/use 14

Is there any negative to stacking all of these things together?

[fallow nimbus]

I would put dance and sectec at the end of the macro but it will work just fine

[near hemlock]

So is this true for every spender in Shadow Dance?

Feels like half the time i'm overcapping on combo points

[fallow nimbus]

You can use that macro until you get first boss trinket

[torn tide]

god damn ur 10 levels above me how tf

ive pretty much not missed anything since early access too, except for 4 mythics yesterday

[lusty acorn]

What shouls i craft now?

I craft one dagger 259

With emp

[stuck arrow]

RNG is both a benevolent and cruel mistress.

[torn tide]

based

[raven maple]

What applies Find Weakness? I cant find the talent

[stuck arrow]

If it makes you feel any better - I did LFR, pugged all of normal, and 4/7 heroic and I haven't had a single piece of gear drop.

[lusty acorn]

.

[verbal kelp]

do you guys macro black powder and coup de grace together? or don't bother and just not cast anything if the mobs are going to die soon?

[wild vine]

No bcs its kinda okay, but also kinda bad

[near hemlock]

What makes it bad?

[wild vine]

Couping the last few %HP is pretty bad potentially even if it doesnt happen as often

Better off saving Coup for the next pack

[torn tide]

it makes me feel slightly better but yea my rng has been dogshit

whats a reasonable ilvl to be applyimg for heroic raids anyway?

[frosty axle]

what boss fights should i avoid puzzlebox completely

[alpine wraith]

if it is your only on use you cant avoid it

and if you have guidon you just use that one

[stuck arrow]

My ilvl is 246 at the moment.

[alpine wraith]

hc raid has hands rn unless you have a good group

[stuck arrow]

Pugs week one usually slap.

Earlier you get in the instance the better.

Honestly, to get best groups you want to avoid the guild progs. 😂

[alpine wraith]

first 3 bosses should be puggable fast

[stuck arrow]

It's same as M+. Need to catch the wave and be carried by it, not miss it and drown.

[alpine wraith]

from dragons onwards might need to just get some daily m0 do all the champion content

and send all crests/craft

[wild vine]

Always either wednesday pugs or weekend alt pugs

[stuck arrow]

I spent way too long in atrocious guilds to not be very good at pugging, lol.

[supple vine]

Did 0s , nightmare preys, 6 tier 8 delves with keys, and guild gave me 2 heroic pieces for 2 set. Getting a map you can get hero from a tier 8 delve also

[stuck arrow]

Several tiers where I'd pug CE before my guild got AotC.

[alpine wraith]

im so mad i got a cloak for the hero track piece

and like 5 trinkets from delve

AAAaaAaAA

[echo lynx]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[verbal kelp]

does it matter which delves we do for tier 8 with key, and if it's solo or with a group, or none of that matters?

[wild vine]

Got haste mastery wrists on hero, kinda goated

[wild vine]

Ye cant stand to look at that paw trinket anymore, always getting that

[supple vine]

Doesn’t matter I just solo them, can also get 20 or 30 hero crests from ? Delve boss that doesn’t count towards weekly cap

[wild vine]

Only needs to be bountiful for you to use the key, thats it

Everything else is same same

[raven maple]

Is it safe to just macro
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

For long term use?

[alpine wraith]

im getting that fucken book

HoLy DOT DAmAGe

[wild vine]

Missing the Ritual binding knife

They shouldve brought that back

[vale pine]

good morning lovely people

how was your first raid day?

[alpine wraith]

we did lfr then full normal raid 1 and 2

then 2 hc bosses

last boss will be hard as f this week

[supple vine]

Cleared norm and killed first 3 void hero and also killed dream hero

Pretty chill

[vale pine]

we did the same, just not 2 hc bosses

[torn tide]

wew cool i should go do 8s then probably lol

[keen dome]

First boss in pugs right now is, uh, exciting.

I think by next reset it's going to be a piece of cake though.

[torn tide]

did 5 normal voidspires, it was pretty cool

i liked the mechs ngl

[vale pine]

i got, not the worse loot

[keen dome]

I killed the first boss on heroic and it was an exercise in tanks being terrible

[vale pine]

haha

can image

[keen dome]

Multiple 1 - 8% wipes because of them putting the boss in idiotic spots.

[torn tide]

yikes

[vale pine]

crown is a very cinematic fight

[keen dome]

But we killed him. It was harder than anything in TWW yesterday lmao

(On heroic, except maybe Ansurek)

[torn tide]

it is but we gave up on that last night, we were on that for like 2hrs

[keen dome]

But give it a week of gear + M+? easy fight

[vale pine]

on heroic?

it was fine on normal

[torn tide]

normal, the whole raid party had absolutely no idea what to do cuz we all havent gone through it

[keen dome]

Haha

[vale pine]

oh yikes

unlucky

we had healers a bit over-whelmed

[keen dome]

I think we got normal crown in my pug in 10 pulls? Mostly it was just people figuring it out.

[vale pine]

so some people died

week one logs are rly bad on many fights for us

[keen dome]

'cos some of the stuff wasn't what I expected it to be. Like the P2 mechanics

[torn tide]

yeaa there was like me and this other dude teaching but it didnt go too well idk why

[supple vine]

Ye do the bountiful ones if you got keys

[torn tide]

from 8s to 10s its like same ilvl loot isnt it

for bountifuls

[supple vine]

Ye just do 8s

[torn tide]

bet ty

[keen dome]

Today I am going to kill Voraius (Heroic) or crash out trying.

[torn tide]

surprisingly i was like 3rd in dps for the whole raid

[torn tide]

goodluck soldier

[haughty mural]

You got this my purple pug hero

[keen dome]

My parse on ImperatorH was green haha, 29

But I was sitting the boss the final few tries 'cos we kept wiping so low

[torn tide]

top 1 and top 2 being frost mage and lock ofc LOL

[keen dome]

yeah lmao

[alpine wraith]

i was not even top 10 on most bosses as expected

[keen dome]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Q6XPa4MApWh2CjfH?fight=3&type=damage-done mage mage mage mage mage mage lmao

[alpine wraith]

we have warlocks dhs mages etc

[keen dome]

Also 3 sub rogues, which was delightful

I am seeing a lot more Rogues in content this season already.

[torn tide]

lmfaoo casually

nice light blue bars on the dps meter

[keen dome]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/468124640091439105/1483919080225505400/image.png?ex=69bc56d6&is=69bb0556&hm=007838f8ac3ffaedae4aa1140bcf3e198bd3b7d144f8a22f73dae1899d9a79c8&

[torn tide]

yea same, im seeing alot more rogues but more outlaws tho

[keen dome]

It's great. I always slam invite other rogues when I can

[torn tide]

pirates decided to get off the ships and start gaming

[fallow nimbus]

We cleared all of normal, that 1 boss raid and hc up to crown

[keen dome]

Nice

I am envious of your speeeed

Which was the hardest heroic boss?

[vale pine]

nice, but i think not everyone has crafted etc. so you can be top if you use pots and crafted...
especially in normal, at least our raid had not that high requirements for it

[granite rose]

is it safe to throw my second crafted piece if i already got my weapon crafted?

[fallow nimbus]

At dragons i got feared from middle all the way to the edge and was dead like 80% of the fight

[torn tide]

thats the crazy part, i didnt use pots and i only have 1 craft so idk why i was top 3

[keen dome]

I feel like Voraius / Saladbar won't be too bad to pug, but duo dragons neo are going to be an absolute pain in the ass.

Heroic Paladins are probably pretty w/e too 'cos they only gain 'one' mechanic, but the DPS check is probably astronomical atm.

[green torrent]

why does it sometimes take up to 10 seconds after combat ends before it lets me enter stealth?

[keen dome]

dance

[supple vine]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/jvKcyPNkdMAC6n1t?fight=last&type=damage-done&graphperf=2
There was a lot of optimization I could’ve done but was holding cds a bunch but did alright still (carried by ilvl)

[green torrent]

oh

[fallow nimbus]

If we don't get another buff or our cleave nerf reverted, we should do it like the unholys did

[raven blaze]

wait is deathstalker better on ST now??

last time i checked here just a few days ago it was trickster on everything

[vale pine]

we had half the raid feared, 1/3 of the feard people die on it on the kill

was fun

[keen dome]

nice

I wish I had tier

[vale pine]

i got lfr and a 2nd piece for the 2p bonus

so not too bad

[fallow nimbus]

I looted warbound lfr set hands

[vale pine]

i am also surprised, the paladin fight was the most lagging one for me

i expected crown to be worse, but crown was less effects

[fiery fog]

Their revert is crazy to me

The post made it seems like they are below warrior

[hot seal]

!haste

[wicked jolt]

Secret Technique cooldown gets reduced by all haste sources, while Shadow Dance only from haste which increases your baseline haste. When using a haste trinket, make sure to use it before Shadow Dance to get the extended duraiton.

[hot seal]

!breakpoint

f

[fallow nimbus]

Get 700 haste

[fiery fog]

.~700 haste

[hot seal]

wasnt it like 683?

[vale pine]

~600-700 which is around 18%

[torn tide]

that one was so funny, half my raid someone got disconnected the moment we entered that arena

[dreamy root]

they are dead last on high percentiles in heroic atm

[vale pine]

my game crashed when i entered the miniraid

haha

but problems like this are expected if you play on low end hardware

[fallow nimbus]

The play for dragons looks to be hold sectec for adds lets get these shitters out of the logs

Remove all small adds

[keen dome]

Yeah

[vale pine]

yep

padding on adds will be our go-to

[fiery fog]

Well, looking at it they are worse than i thought but not dead last

[native zodiac]

The line up of our dance and cds is actually perfect for the dragon orbs

[vale pine]

but i mentioned it yesterday

i expect add damage to get removed from logs

warcraftlogs does not like people falsifying statistics like this ^^

[fallow nimbus]

The few tries i did that i was like top 3 then i stopped caring and was bottom

[fiery fog]

Needing to pad adds to get a good log feels so bad

[raven maple]

Is it bad to macro
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

since you cant apply Find weakness with Shadow Strike outside of the opener?

[fiery fog]

Thats what you do for trickster

[fallow nimbus]

Your bs and storm proc it

[torn tide]

how do yall get coffer keys btw? i only have 100 shard

[hot seal]

world quest

prey

[distant sage]

Go into a delve

[fiery fog]

Go into a delve

[fallow nimbus]

Events

[torn tide]

was the pre season stuff not giving coffer ketys?

[fallow nimbus]

Shards become keys when you enter

[fiery fog]

Otherwise just do weeklies/rares/wq and youre maxed in no time

[raven maple]

I saw that on wow head, but wouldn't I be missing out on damge from not having FW?

[torn tide]

cool ty

[torn tide]

oh damn well i only have 1 key if thats the case

[fiery fog]

Your opener starts with shadowstrike so it should apply fw (i think?)
The reason you use the macro is to not miss any casts during dance

Since you cant dance+shadowstrike due to a bug

Instantly (small delay)

[fallow nimbus]

Do the world weeklies, wqs, rare mobs and prey stuff

[balmy gate]

Holy black Powder what a big Nerf 🙁

[fiery fog]

Yeah it hurts quite a bit

But i guess sub is still fine

Could be better and worse

[balmy gate]

Yeah its fine but before the nerf it was so much fun haha

[olive canyon]

tier will fix it

[balmy gate]

I will Play forever SUB they can Nerf IT to hell my guild ne to carry me

Need*

[fiery fog]

Ngl

Current sub feels a lot like df s1 sub where i started and it feels like im home again

[raven maple]

Yup it does, so that macro is only good for the opener? The reasoning for the macro makes sense. Do people not worry about not applying FW over having perfect globals with that macro?

[fiery fog]

You want to always use sectec with dance to not miss any casts
Fw should always be applied since all you do is backstab/strike/storm

[torn tide]

holyy end me now

i got gear from the world boss but it was mail

what a great game

[keen dome]

They're always warbound now

[fiery fog]

I already killed 2 different world osses because of eu shenanigans

[keen dome]

So you always get something but it's not always for you

[torn tide]

gotta be shitting me

[raven maple]

OOhh backstab and storm applies FW also?

Thanks btw

[keen dome]

Someone sense check me: did they keep in the discount on overlap for crests i.e, if I take a Vet piece to 6/6 then I can take a Champ piece to 2/6 for free?

[fiery fog]

Yes

[torn tide]

yea my vet gear was 6/6 and i was able to do 2/6 champ for free

0 crest cost

[keen dome]

Rad, thank you

[haughty mural]

What did they do before they got another +24k tonight ?

[raven maple]

That makes a lot of sense, thanks a lot

[fiery fog]

By doing this you can upgrade 5 items to 6/6 champ this week btw

[keen dome]

Yeah

I just wanted to check before I sent them

[torn tide]

wait what

damn

[fallow nimbus]

I don't know, being dks maybe?

[fiery fog]

You want to upgrade vet to 6/6 before champ
The same goes for champ 6/6 and hero track

[keen dome]

Yeah

[fiery fog]

But you also want to drop the higher track first too

So you only need to use like 20 crests?

[haughty mural]

[keen dome]

Yeah

[haughty mural]

Hero class

[keen dome]

Getting 246 champ, then taking the vet to 250 for a single step worth of crests

and so on

[fiery fog]

Tbh i like the change of crests for each track but i feel like this is an oversight from blizzard

Or just unintuitive

[keen dome]

Yeah, I think this is part of the design because it's the iLevel giving us the discount, not the item

It's just unintutive

[fiery fog]

At least we can save some crests by doing so
And on lower tracks this might just not matter in a week anymore anyway

Probably really good for hero and myth track though

[prisma galleon]

hi, does ST profit from suepr charged?

[fiery fog]

Yes
You always want sectec to be charged

[keen dome]

Yeah it's huge. Overall the change is really solid imo, it solves a ton of issues with the gearing economy we've had, esp with Heroic raid loot

[prisma galleon]

ty

[granite rose]

am i good to send my second craft ? my guild hasnt raided yet we raid thursday and friday. and i saw logs on rogues sending their second craft already

[prisma galleon]

❤️

[old spindle]

is double dance in blades windows more of a suggestion?

[fiery fog]

Just craft wrists or belt
The chances of only you needing the crafted slot is low and both provide low stats anyway imo
Or just use crests and no spark
Workd as well

[fiery fog]

The whole guide is a suggestion
Its better to do it though

Because damage is in dance and you dont want to waste 50% of blades cd on low dmg non dance stuff

With high enough haste you should always have dance+sectec anyway

[old spindle]

ye. ive been looking at Lorrgs and it seems its 50/50

some double dance, some dance+blades then dance+tech after the window

[fiery fog]

Well

Tierset is missing so 4seconds less of blades

[old spindle]

OHHHHH

i didnt consider that!

[fiery fog]

And with current stats (low in general) it might happen that you do not sync sectec + dance in a manner to be always up together

[short radish]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fiery fog]

But in general you want to double dance in blades and dance+sectec after blades (or rather the second dance in blades ends)

Since you want sectec to be supercharged

[old spindle]

yeah i get that absolutely now. thanks for the feedback Euronics!

never had this problem when i was outlaw. button shine button smash

[paper trail]

Sorry but what do you mean with super charged

[fiery fog]

There is a talent that makes the next 2 finishers after dance be supercharged
Those finishers act like using 2 more cp

So 8-10 cp sectec instead of 6-8cp

[old spindle]

Dance-Supercharge Happens-Tech

[paper trail]

Ah thats why u always st right after dance and they recommend the macro, Tyty

[old spindle]

thats another thing that lends (atleast currently outside of 4p) the no double dance in Blades. coz then dance will always line up with tech

[fiery fog]

And with ~700 haste you will dance for ~20 seconds (blades with tierset is also 20seconds)

[solar gull]

Goal is to get enough haste to be able to get 2 secret techs within two dance windows ?

Back to back within blades ?

[raven maple]

I was gonna say 200 secs is quite a buff

[alpine wraith]

no haste goal is mainly to get longer dances

[lean sigil]

On noodles subject, What do we do if we miss the second sec tech during blades second dance? I was noticing it during raid yesterday, often got second sec during the last second

[old spindle]

then why did Raidbots recommend me to drop down from 18% haste to 15%! scumbags!

[alpine wraith]

the sec tech thing is not that important

read above

[fiery fog]

In blades you dance twice but only sectec on the first dance

[alpine wraith]

if you have bl you can sec tech twice but most of the time you wont

until you have guidon

[lean sigil]

So never a second sec on second dance?

[old spindle]

you would send on first dance, it wouldnt be up for second

[umbral cliff]

should i craft this week or wait after vault? and what did you guys crafted already?

[raven maple]

No wonder that trink is so good

[fiery fog]

Well only when you have the conditions hachadino described

[old spindle]

i would suggest looking at Lorrgs. the first boss has a mix of people double sending and single sending

[lean sigil]

I was within 1 sec almost every second dance at 700 Haste

[old spindle]

to see when/how they are lining up

[lean sigil]

But its more safe to send second sec on third dance then?

[old spindle]

i think so yeah

[alpine wraith]

as said 4 times depends on gear and set up

[old spindle]

but im new to sub

[lean sigil]

Its super close to get it with my gear

But there is a risk to sec with last global and miss dance

[fiery fog]

Correct me if im wrong but it all comes down to if you can supercharge the second sectec with that second dance in blades

If you cant you dont
If you can you send

[lean sigil]

That would be very hard

[old spindle]

fair point Euronics.

[pulsar prawn]

!haste

[wicked jolt]

Secret Technique cooldown gets reduced by all haste sources, while Shadow Dance only from haste which increases your baseline haste. When using a haste trinket, make sure to use it before Shadow Dance to get the extended duraiton.

[umbral cliff]

is it worth to craft weapon now?

[lean sigil]

Just to be clear we are talking apex proc?

[fiery fog]

No

You generally dont want to use the apex on sectec

Because it only amplifies its physical damage and not the damage from clones so its quite bad for it

[lean sigil]

How do i make sure second is supercharged then? Guess we are talking about the 2 extra from dance prepull thing

[raven blaze]

lads. i got a piece of tier from lfr. should i get my 2set with catalyst or nah

[fiery fog]

Basicly what hachadino said

Bl + guidon

And enough haste

(~700)

[pulsar prawn]

anyone know the command or where that haste breakpoint screenshot is of each intervul 0.1 globals in dance?

[fiery fog]

Otherwise it wont happen

[verbal kelp]

hello, when do we stop stacking haste? im currently at 648, is it at 700?

[lean sigil]

So only if sec is next global after dance

Then i know my fault, i was trying to get one more in on the last global of a dance

[pulsar prawn]

thank you I looked for like 10 min @native zodiac

[alpine wraith]

i did an opener showcase if you want to really watch with a haste trinket you get 2 in blades with tier but to get it so soon you need that powerful items and bl

[lean sigil]

I was reading the guide as fast sec if dance is up, but correct play is only dance if i can sec tec next global, but break that rule during blades and dance twice on one sec? I know I’m dumb

But just to be clear

[alpine wraith]

you want to use sec tech on dances

but if you get it eaerlier due to bl or has on uses

you send it on dance

you do want to supercharge it if possible

but it is better to get it on cd asap

inside a dance

[lean sigil]

Ok, then i was doing it correct

[hallow matrix]

two questions: should i always hold dance for sectec? and is there a situation where i can send dance without sectec or is that gimping the dmg? (aside from blades window)

[umbral cliff]

is it worth to craft weapon now????????

[alpine wraith]

yea we weapon crafters

on m+ you send 2 dances usually in a row then a third with sec tech

instead of 1 and waiting

because of travel time between packs you get natural cdr

tha you wouldnt in raid combat

[hallow matrix]

m+ is not with blades right?

i did mean raid but handy to know for m+

[alpine wraith]

well you use blades on cd with 2 dances yea

it is a bit more complicated but just a situation where you dance with no sec tech

[fiery fog]

I guess in raid with a good haste trinket its more likely to happen that you sectec twice in the opener blades because of bl

Since sectec cd is lowered from the haste

[hollow spear]

It's almost impossible (maybe not even almost) to get a 2nd sectec out without Lust

[keen dome]

Voraius is pretty good as sub. Big blast.

[fiery fog]

Its my first time raiding since tww s1
Kinds dont know what to expect lmao

Just pressing buttons and pad on adds

Sublife

[keen dome]

Haha, yeah

[fiery fog]

Is there a boss where assa actually performs better than sub?

Or is assa just tuned too low rn

[keen dome]

Paladins maybe? I dunno

[umbral cliff]

we play with haste trinket after we already got 700 haste?

[fiery fog]

Yes

The 700 haste is for the dance only

Since dance duration doesnt profit from % haste gains

[hallow matrix]

i see you type a lot giving advice on how to play sub etc in here - If you haven't raided since tww s1, do you just spend a lot of time on rogue theorycrafting?

[fiery fog]

While sectec gets reduced cd the more haste you har

[hallow matrix]

just wondering how you know so much if you don't actively play it

[fiery fog]

I started the day ea dropped and read the guides/asked questions here and try to understand what the real smart guys try to explain to us

[hallow matrix]

yeah i do as well - find it hard in these discords to know who to listen to as sometimes i see conflicting information that someone like fuu or eleem will correct

[alpine wraith]

sub rn is not that hard to research for most

and yea usually fuu me or eleem are around

[fiery fog]

By answering i get corrected if im wrong and learn something
If im right i know i what should be done and know im doing it correctly which feels good

[hallow matrix]

are you one of the big gamers verified in the discord?

[alpine wraith]

just been here quite a long time and try to stay updated on everything TC things for sub

[fiery fog]

Fuu/eleem/hacha are probably the most active lately
There are some more guys though

At least from what im seeing in chat

[hallow matrix]

Okay cool - i try to learn / understand / verify what i'm being told anyway but thanks for all the answers

[keen dome]

I post a lot and barely understand anything.

[warm marlin]

quite a few higher end sub players frequent here

[fiery fog]

Some things may sound complicated but as soon as you try it out on a dummy or key its honestly very intuitive rn

[cosmic dust]

has someone good exp with current elvui? How much loss on performance is it nowdays?

[fiery fog]

Sub got so much easier compared to what it was the past 2 expansions

[fallow nimbus]

If your raid isn't dumb and groups adds

[hallow matrix]

yeah i've picked up rogue this tier and did a normal clear last night with avg 90% so i think im doing okay

[keen dome]

shhhhhh

[fiery fog]

As a comparison
I used it too but switched to ellesmereui a few days ago
Its somewhat close but it feels like elvui tanked quite a bit more

[alpine wraith]

voraios is peak if you group all the adds get them low then kock them to walls

[fallow nimbus]

Fucking hunters kiting adds to like middle of the wall

[alpine wraith]

or grip

[fallow nimbus]

Does the boss get some dmg reduction when adds are up?

[alpine wraith]

not that i know

[fallow nimbus]

Because i will keep tunneling boss if adds are spread like shit next split

[vale pine]

no, the wall boss has no damage reduction while adds are up

[alpine wraith]

that is you you want them in the middle so everyone can cleave

them knock or grip to walls as they are about to die

you can have everyone on melee have lots of time to kill the adds

so they run there

[old spindle]

been looking at sims and logs and such. how are people managing to reduce the cooldown of tech. or am i being a dum dum outlaw rogue?

[alpine wraith]

well on Mythic you will see better strats rn even in hc it is yolo

sec tech cd gets reduced by haste

[fiery fog]

Must be the dumdum outlaw rogue thing

[fallow nimbus]

Tell that to the half brain ranges

[alpine wraith]

well when you hve 10 secs to pop 3 on each wall

people might actually use brain

[fiery fog]

Haste reduces sectec cd

Using a haste trinket reduces it further

Bl even more

[alpine wraith]

haste procs too

but they are not used much

[fiery fog]

Ngl i wanna see what it looks like to run max haste at the end of the season

30 second dances

[alpine wraith]

the increase is quite steep and mastery crit is better quite earlu

[hallow matrix]

can someone explain why worst from method is using sectec out of dance here? https://clips.twitch.tv/create/HardGenerousUdonAsianGlow-dCV6DeNs10k5uXSE

or is he likely just afk vibing on splits

[tulip light]

is there still a way to "cheese" ?? nemesis?

[alpine wraith]

get lots of gear so he does not 3 hit you with autos

also lvl valeera

[fiery fog]

I tried doing it with a lvl 15 valeera for 3 hours and stopped after several 13% attempts

[alpine wraith]

so she doe smore dmg and heal more also lvl the curios thing

[tulip light]

aight just sending end of week after raid

[alpine wraith]

best ones are the cdr one and the haste on jump

if you get a blue or epic haste on jump you get bl lvls of haste

[fiery fog]

I somehow have 3/4 time bubble curio which seems really good too atp

[alpine wraith]

just pop it every add phase and at the end

think the time bubble is the cdr one

dont remember

[warm marlin]

this link does not work

gotta publish the clip

[hallow matrix]

https://www.twitch.tv/worstoa/clip/HardGenerousUdonAsianGlow-dCV6DeNs10k5uXSE

my bad

[fiery fog]

Yeah increases your time (cdr and gcd) while reducing enemies stuff in it

[alpine wraith]

it is to have 2 dances in blades

[reef walrus]

I tried haste stacking to the extreme in the prepatch with access to pretty much all items at max ilvl, even with the first dance I couldn't really get past 17 second dances

I assume we're not going to see much more than that this expansion either

[warm marlin]

managing cooldowns is a little weird prior to having guidon/in real raid fights, but blades is kinda far and you can get a raw sectec off here without overcapping dance charges too much and without wasting too much blades cd

[fiery fog]

17 second dances is close to infinite dancing with dance having 20 sec cd (does it? Or was it 30)

[reef walrus]

that's with the first dance

dance is 20 sec cd yeah

[hallow matrix]

is it really worth overcapping dance by 6 seconds and sitting on blades?

just for 1 natty sectec

[warm marlin]

personally i probably wouldnt have sent this one raw

especially because pot is up soon so we want to hold blades for it