subtlety

[swift tinsel]

if it does

[wild vine]

Ye usually do it at 87 1/3

[swift tinsel]

ah rip

[wild vine]

Or slightly later

Just before delve turn ins basically.

[swift tinsel]

I just did delve quest turn in from 88-90 and adjusted calamitous runs

since they were still super fast

was clearing on dk to the point where I had to wait for horse charges lol

[light hull]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[toxic knoll]

with the aoe tuning nerf is outlaw better then sub now in m+? hope not

[wild vine]

Its not really out yet

[lilac stag]

If you mean FDK then yes

[wild vine]

So hard to compare

[lilac stag]

outlaw offhand wdps scaling going to carry them

[wild vine]

Might legit be the first season I'd actually play outlaw if its way better, but I'd still prefer not to.

[wild vine]

Would be hilarious

[lilac stag]

Did you see how it’s scaling?

[elfin pendant]

I noticed all the rogues in Liquids guild have crafted a Dawnforged Edge. Is that just getting it made with veteran crests?

[wild vine]

Nothing specific

[wild vine]

Its just raw

[lilac stag]

[wild vine]

Good job blizzard

[lilac stag]

They’re saving sparks until needed for splits or crests

[elfin pendant]

Is that just like a world first thing should we not do that?

[hazy breach]

If you are unsure what to craft you almost certainly should just be crafting a dagger

[lilac stag]

It’s a RWF and try hard HoF thing. Us mortals can craft a dagger at 259 and make our lives easier in the first week

[grand wyvern]

depends on the capability of your guild to clear heroic without sending upgrades, if sending upgrades earlier helps you you should, if you can hold off you should hold off

[fallow nimbus]

Even hof type shit can just craft a dagger

[hazy breach]

The only time crafting a dagger would be a downside is if you are the only rogue+no survival hunters in your group and you kill mythic 2nd boss first week and it drops 2 daggers

[strange chasm]

craft dagger and then get flamed when outlaw is meta

[wild vine]

Wait whats the difference between farstriders mercy and dawnforged edge?

[strange chasm]

gg

[lilac stag]

So Stealthi

[hazy breach]

Farstriders costs sparks and can be upgraded higher than 246

[lilac stag]

One is spark dagger. One is blue dagger.

[wild vine]

Ah alright

Thought I had the wrong one prepared

[hazy breach]

Or well yeah, if you want to play outlaw then having crafted a dagger would be a downside

[lilac stag]

Except offhand dagger huge for outlaw

[fallow nimbus]

I crafted a spark dagger because the first dagger drop in manaforge was in farm

[lilac stag]

they apparently like their off hand unlike sub

[strange chasm]

mainhand sword is even more huge

[hazy breach]

Well yeah, but mainhand is huger

[strange chasm]

but pray outlaw is garbo again for mythic

[lilac stag]

You get 2 crafts

[grand wyvern]

my guild has a running joke that daggers always drop when i am in raid and only i can use it, so i am rigging the loot

[gloomy sentinel]

Hey ! Can someone share with me their damage meter ability split (%) of a dungeon overall ?
I'm trying to figure out, what i don't press enough etc :p

i guess i can try to sim on 5 target either ?

[fallow nimbus]

Press more bp

[gloomy sentinel]

:ppp

[fallow nimbus]

Macro coup to bp and press even more bp

[wild vine]

Dungeonslice

If anything

[gloomy sentinel]

yeah ill check with that, ty

[wild vine]

But even that is rather inaccurate

[lilac stag]

My guy. M0 breakdowns mean nothing

[gloomy sentinel]

my dps is really sub par, just trying to get another view than just the priority list

[lilac stag]

Post a log

[wild vine]

Its kinda hard with how fast stuff dies in m0

[hollow spear]

If you follow the prio list, your gear is decent and your dps is bad, you're not following the prio list

Remember, this is a two button spec

[gloomy sentinel]

just realized i'm not even sublety but outlaw xD

[astral axle]

if it is sub par im not sure what the problem is, you are playing subtlety so idk what you expect

[gloomy sentinel]

[elfin pendant]

@gloomy sentinel Biggest thing is make sure you are getting your cooldown window perfect. Our damage is insanely frontloaded so if u dont get it perfect your damage will suck

[astral axle]

oh

[elfin pendant]

Lmao

[gloomy sentinel]

thats a shame ahha

[lilac stag]

Stop fucking up blade flurry

[astral axle]

SUB par like average for sub hehehe

[hollow spear]

When even identifying the spec becomes a skill issue

[gloomy sentinel]

might be that x)

[astral axle]

[gloomy sentinel]

blade furry only x)

[plush roost]

@hazy breach is raidbots updated with all the ds findings? or tuesday angle?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/ru-paul-reading-fundamental-is-glasses-gif-12651517

[hollow spear]

I hope Charrend is banned from wow for the entire heroic week

[plush roost]

You want me to overperform on DS so trickster gets buffed

js

[astral axle]

relationships with ai

[hollow spear]

You're getting us aura nerfed mate

[plush roost]

That pushes the assa agenda

W

[hollow spear]

Please overperform on assa

[keen dome]

Getting us BP buffed again 'cos ST is too strong.

[hollow spear]

And don't touch sub

[astral axle]

i proudly work for Big Assa

https://tenor.com/view/al-pacino-heat-gif-11543354

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/donkey-laugh-gif-10518703313190570758

[hazy breach]

No, hopefully on tuesday

[prisma ibex]

hey guys

is there some talent to AOE blind?

or its gone?

[hazy breach]

But idk, whenever they decide to fix so that the sim doesnt brick if youre tracking a trinket you aint got equipped ig

Its gone

[prisma ibex]

thanks

so we have no Good AOE control right?

none actually

[hazy breach]

No we have no stops correct

[wild vine]

Technically if you are the one to invite say a DH, all his cc is yours

Because he can only cc at that point and in that moment because you invited him

[plush roost]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[astral axle]

i also work for big aa

[gilded ferry]

i honestly do not know anymore if its a running joke, irony or being serious about the 2 button spec

got lost

[ripe flame]

You could say you are... misguided

[gilded ferry]

I wear this name so people dont have to say this behind my back!

[lilac stag]

Which has evolved into WTF is the AA minmax I don’t want to do that shit + omg a BP + Coup macro YAY! YAY!

go back to Ret and DK kthxbye

To think this time last season the only real headache was double on use trinkets.

[azure mauve]

we have no aoe control

we dont even ahve bad aoe control

[gilded ferry]

oh shit, they got rid of aoe blind

damn

[keen dome]

Yeah, rip.

Easy come, easy go.

[azure mauve]

like bad aoe control is aoe blind

cause it breaks instantly lol

[gilded ferry]

at least you can reset casts, not even that anymore haha

[steep raven]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[prisma ibex]

sad

i asked cuz someone said me they would bring AOE blind back, but searching here it seens they have changed they mind lol

[swift tinsel]

nah it would be much too strong to allow any class/spec to have both a single target and aoe cc ability

couldn't imagine a world

[keen dome]

they're just prepping to give us something else, def.

Maybe it as baseline

[swift tinsel]

stunning secret my beloved

a love never meant to exist

yet I yearn for it

[open coyote]

in your opener you get enough CP to get the apex proc for the first ST and evicerate but during the 2nd dance of shadow blades is that when you can shadow strike at full CP to get the apex to proc for the bonus damage?

[eternal abyss]

Crafted Weapon we go Mastery Haste or Crit Mastery?

[hazy breach]

If you need haste get haste, if you dont then dont

[eternal abyss]

I mean it's too early to play with stats...based on recommended stats on guide it says Mastery Haste wins.
I can always adjust later, I was just wondering what people take for start now.

[plush roost]

the virgin coup de grace vs chad darkest night 8)

[open coyote]

the ancient arts is the extra damage from when you have the CP refund available correct?

[plush roost]

ye

[open coyote]

ah, i think i get the optimization thing now

[plush roost]

Supercharged apex DN is indeed quite strong

[hazy breach]

Make your DN do big damage

[hollow spear]

Logs will become a race for who gets to supercharge the most dn

[plush roost]

its pretty much guarnateed

Just the cadence of the spec

aligns DN on 2nd finisher almost always

[open coyote]

wasn't DS only better if there were 0 adds during the fights?

or am i remembering something wrong

[plush roost]

the cleave of DS is quite bad ye

I have a sneaking suspicion that we will see it anyway

There are damage on amps on alleria

Short

Cadence

Damage amps

[open coyote]

so having a big hitting DN is potentially gonna be worth a lot

haven't played sub in raid like ever so i guess it's gonna take a while for me to figure out exactly at what points it's worth to hold/send stuff

[plush roost]

🤔

[keen dome]

Ye, I think Crown is more ST than AoE.

[plush roost]

Depends on droplet health pool

If cleaving them is simple and its just about managing their positioning

[keen dome]

There's an add in P2 + the Simulacrum too

[plush roost]

then its pmuch ST with a couple cleavers

[keen dome]

I'm not sure what triggers P3 though. Boss HP, time, energy or Simulacrum HP

It reminds me a lot of Razageth, though.

[open coyote]

if we're in the ST spec i assume it's only worth to BP on like 3 or more targets? since we don't have the mastery scaling and we just got our ST buffed right?

i assumed that the explaination in #subtlety-faq about BP is related to the m+ spec

[hazy breach]

No it is 2 regardless

But maybe it shifts after the tuning pass, we'll see

[open coyote]

allright i'll wait till all the NA guys have done their thing tuesday and i'll just copy it for wednesday

[plush roost]

Am i wildin or is windfury even more important for DS than trickster to make Apex DN more consistent

[spare totem]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[plush roost]

im constantly double striking on the dummy -_-

[astral axle]

oh

we spill grape koolaid on alleria and she get angy

[restive stream]

is it good?

[astral axle]

nah it sucks

[weak frost]

do we play deathstalker now or?

[lucid jackal]

Rogue feels so weird this tier, i genuinly feel there is no right answer until we see the actual encounters, and the actual meta

[keen dome]

I think that's only in P1, where Alleria isn't even active yet.

[astral axle]

My hopes... My dreams!!

[lucid jackal]

Theres a non zero chance rogues cleave isn't standout enough that we just play full ST sub/sin/otl whatever to be a full on st merchant and it doesnt matter that DS cleave is bad

[plush roost]

its crazy annoying cause im like trying to think how this amp will be handled but like, are the droplets constant? every 30 seconds? every 1 minute

[plush roost]

I already mentioned this to marsh

[keen dome]

Maybe you get a single one during the entire phase

[plush roost]

I think rogue is the first cleave class u just make go full ST

[lucid jackal]

Im legit just playing outlaw and ill change my mind on mythic week

[astral axle]

All these moments will be gone... like tears in the rain

[still gazelle]

Sub for M+?

[keen dome]

I assume the idea is you debuff all 3 of the undying dudes with it and blow them up after their undying debuff is gone but who knows, P1 is all sorts of weird.

[plush roost]

same gonna sub on main for splits, assa on alt

vibe data gathering

[formal pollen]

Hi all, I see the FAQ says to attempt to hold dance when shadow blades in coming off CD to get 2xDance w/in blades. However, it's not looking like the sim does that, unless I am mistaken?

[lucid jackal]

I think the issue is the 2nd hardest boss of the raid is 3 target

Like, I don't think midnight sub can ever be correct on that fight

Last expac, it was like, fine on DH yk

We played it for prog

But like now? Idk

I feel like u legit just need to play sin or law

[rain vault]

is darkmoon sigil hunt our best weapon embellishment or is it better to just craft a murder row dagger?

[lucid jackal]

but we have to see fight caedance and actual in practice numbers

[still gazelle]

I mostly just care about M+. Is there any consensus among all three specializations? Which one will be ideal? With with current tuning in mind which obviously isn't final.

[hazy breach]

Idk is it really gonna be that hard if theres 3 bosses left after it you know

[stuck arrow]

Idk feels like a sin boss, TBH.

[hazy breach]

It could be ofc

But it doesnt have to be

[lucid jackal]

Have they actually said how hard the raid is

Like, how hard they want this raid to be compared to the one opening up later

[hazy breach]

The last 2 are supposed to be harder iirc

[keen dome]

I recall them saying something like how Crown was as difficult as a typical endboss, and then Midnight Falls is harder than that?

[hazy breach]

Like midnight falls is the true endboss

But crown is probably penultimate tier as they havent tested it

So like midnight falls > crown > bird/paladins? probably

[lucid jackal]

the 2 final bosses dont start up tho right

Like

thats in the future

or is it open right away

[keen dome]

Yeah, no March until the 31st

[hazy breach]

1 week after mythic

[lucid jackal]

So its this reset is heroic, next is mythic, then next is the other raid?

[keen dome]

Correct

[plush roost]

is it really 3 target tho? feels more like a 2 target fight thats 3 target for 10 second intervals

[keen dome]

And the final raid is open on Mythic right away

[plush roost]

from what i could see on testing anyway

[still gazelle]

What about that one off boss? Is he open this week?

[keen dome]

Yeah

[fathom adder]

which stat does sigil:hunt give for which creature-type?

[still gazelle]

Trinket man I'm going to call him.

[lucid jackal]

My vibe from testing is that its like 60-70% 3 target

But either way, I don't think it being 2 target makes sub a better choice

[keen dome]

Voidspire + Dreamrift open on the 17th/18th on Normal + Heroic
Mythic Voidspire and Dreamrift on the 24th / 25th
Normal, Heroic and Mythic March on Quel'dalas on the 31st / 1st

[plush roost]

no definitely not

LOL

[lucid jackal]

Like u can't even cope "I'm going full ST build"

U just have to be sin/otl imo

[plush roost]

Raise ur sword!

[keen dome]

What's the most thematic paladin killing class. Just stack them

[lucid jackal]

U can cope about going full ST build on like, the aoe-ish fights, full ST merchant

[astral axle]

woyer

[lucid jackal]

But like if paladins is actually hard like

Get ready to learn Outlaw buddy

[plush roost]

well fortunately

[rain vault]

Is darkmoon sigil hunt the best embellishment for us?

[plush roost]

this is the easiest outlaw has been in a hot minute

[astral axle]

I think paladin will be an outlaw fight

[azure mauve]

whats there to learn AM I I RIGHT BOIS

[keen dome]

I think so too

[plush roost]

XD

[keen dome]

Esp as they gotta die roughly around the same time

[open coyote]

sin and sub have the same 2nd stat priorities right?

[hazy breach]

Based on nothing but the vibes pulled out of my ass i dont think theyll tune paladins to be too difficult, probably similar to DHs in manaforge

[still gazelle]

Outlaw is hard now. I played it in the past. I never had to think about something like premeditation.

Can't play it now.

[marble sail]

am i seeing this right that deathstalker owns?

what happened

[keen dome]

Def seems likely. It's a very similar fight, after all.

[formal pollen]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen dome]

It looks a little less chaotic than DH's though

[stuck arrow]

I don't think you have to think about premed now - it's a theoretical get out of jail for AR down time, no?

[marble sail]

@hazy breach what did i miss, APL?

[plush roost]

depends if they consider it penultimate boss tier or 5thboss tier

[astral axle]

Well yeah paladins don't deal chaos damage

less chaotic fight no

[hazy breach]

Unshakeable drive doesnt work like the tooltip says it does

[keen dome]

I'm very curious how difficult Dreamrift is gonna be.

[marble sail]

so its a bug or a feature?

[keen dome]

The fight doesn't look hard at all

[hazy breach]

Yes

[astral axle]

bout to unshakably drive DN into raid

[silk fiber]

Wait what significance does that talent make deathstalker better, I started death stalker before prepatch and was told it was pretty meh I have no experience with it

[lucid jackal]

It means target swapping sucks, cleave sucks, but you do big st

[still gazelle]

Wouldn't trickster be used in any fight with cleave or adds?

[stuck arrow]

Depends on tuning, doesn't it?

[still gazelle]

Only death stalker on pure single Target right?

[astral axle]

man sub will own salhad

[keen dome]

Everyhing does, yes. But mechanically it doesn't look hard.

[hazy breach]

Maybe, probably, possibly

Come back in a few weeks if you want a better answer

[astral axle]

im so excited for raid!!

[stuck arrow]

Idk even just playing DS scares me. Knowing my luck it would work perfectly all of progression then hard bug right when we finally kill the boss.

[woeful rain]

do we still use SB right after dance/sectec?

[stuck arrow]

Same time as dance. Before sectec.

[woeful rain]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

You cannot track the apex talents Ancient Arts through the cooldown manager. However they do show up via the ingame like THIS. If you cannot see them you must go into your settings and increase your Spell Alert Opacity. Some popular Addons (like ElvUI) disable these by default.

[hazy breach]

Oh we should edit that

[south kernel]

wasnt this changed?

[woeful rain]

i was looking for the other apex thingy 😄

[south kernel]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[south kernel]

this?

[woeful rain]

yyy

ty

[molten citrus]

Still testing

I’m not 100% convinced it works fully

[vale pine]

yes, aa is in the cooldown manager now

[hazy breach]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[spare totem]

Can someone explain the AA thing to me like im an idiot? apparently my reading comprenshion is -0

[woeful rain]

i dont really undersetand this AA optimization, is this when apex talent buff is up or whtt?

hahah same

[hazy breach]

Darkest night does big damage

You want to make it do bigger damage

So you have apex up

[woeful rain]

Oh so it not relevant for tricksters?

[lucid jackal]

There are apex optimizations with both hero talents

they are just different

[hazy breach]

Im convinced its just the apex talents themselves being confusingly worded, because in practice its straightforward as hell

[warped zodiac]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush pecan]

Does this mean everytime we got 5 cps, the idea is to have ancient arts up, charged plus shadow techniques ?

[hazy breach]

No, thats not what it says

[plush roost]

can u spot the problem 8)

[hazy breach]

[lucid jackal]

LOLOL

3 target sin 2 target outlaw

[plush roost]

LOL

[lucid jackal]

[plush roost]

IF WE ADD AN ENTIRE EXTRA TARGET

Were powerful

[lucid jackal]

Bro ppl in outlaw unironically tell me

With a straight face

"Yeah but PC doesn't exist anymore"

Yeah and subs burst is worse, and doesnt have cleave, and cant move CDs

its a new expac bro

What we had doesn't matter

Live in the moment

[hazy breach]

Free cleave got heavily nerfed across the game

Not only outlaw's

[lucid jackal]

Yeah

Even in this last balance patch they just nerfed a shitload more

[plush roost]

its so joever bros

[lucid jackal]

LOLOLOL

[plush roost]

Outlaw tier smile

[lucid jackal]

Is that trickster at least?

[plush roost]

ye

[lucid jackal]

Oh brother

[warped zodiac]

anyone know what the 4 set damage % gain is for sub? i cant seem to find it

[lucid jackal]

Just wrap it up

[plush roost]

to be fair

[lucid jackal]

TIer is big for sub innit

No tier

[plush roost]

this split toon, doesnt have a ton of haste

525 smh

(ignore that outlaw also needs haste)

[keen dome]

big gains

[split wagon]

Sheeesh that’s saucy

[plush roost]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

fwiw pretty sure deathstalker sims better at 2 targets

[split wagon]

No doubt I’ll be stuck on 3pc until we get enough charges of catalyst

[lucid jackal]

DEATHSTALKER SUB ON PALADIN

LOLOLOL

[hazy breach]

But yeah not better than outlaw

[lucid jackal]

Bro its a wrap

And I get called a troll for trying to force outlaw

[stuck arrow]

Oof. And I thought I was struggle bussing it.

[lucid jackal]

If I see 1 sub mfer trying to play sub on paladins

Its on sight

[plush roost]

its my split toon ill do one on main in asec

[plush roost]

Im playing DS sub on paladins

dont @ me

(in heroic splits week 1)

[olive canyon]

I think ill just go assasination for 2/3 target situations

[keen dome]

I'm gonna play Sub on Paladins

[lilac stag]

Giga ST damage incoming Tuesday.

[spiral needle]

gonna be silly when paladins dies in 20 pulls like demon hunter council did

[stuck arrow]

Ah. Lol I was like man I'm in casual old man territory and had bad RNG.

[plush pecan]

thats not what I asked, does the combo explained apply to only setech?

[marble sail]

im gonna be first to kill it as assa

[lilac stag]

I’m gonna play sub

[plush roost]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kXnBM5KNoSNUbTNYJYjcpA

[lilac stag]

Fuck paladins

[hazy breach]

no

[tacit maple]

dog, I picked Rogue and Spriest to level for this expansion...I really fucked up

[lilac stag]

Should be NE

[hazy breach]

Not really

[marble sail]

2 bosses?

[slow fox]

Insane mentality

“I fucked up playing what I found fun”

[tacit maple]

I mean, Rogue still has potential..right?

[plush roost]

Wait whats going on here

[tepid trellis]

you did a 2t sim

dumbo

[plush roost]

Premed bug isnt working in simc?

[slow fox]

If ur good on any spec you out dps 99% of the population

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/schneewittchen-snow-white-gif-11611811703612081503

Dude I picked rogue every expansion to level up.

[plush roost]

i know

[hazy breach]

No but it doesnt matter much

[keen dome]

[plush roost]

Doesnt it in ST tho? like wont the sim miss apex DN's?

[spiral needle]

all tuning final, ignore any blizzard posting about several more weeks of future tuning

[shy scarab]

I picked rogue and enhance 😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆

[keen dome]

You can't go wrong picking rogue if you find it fun. You won't regret playing rogue if you find it fun.

[lilac stag]

At least Enhance is pretty

[shy scarab]

Pretty huh

[tacit maple]

ya, but once mythic starts its usually locked until RWF ends

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/shakingperson-violentshake-gif-13216714

[slow fox]

I chose UH dk, demo lock, guardian Druid omg I fucked up

[stuck arrow]

2 bosses is cheats man. 😂

[plush roost]

well thats what i was testing for LOL

[hazy breach]

It always starts with low cp as deathstalker

[plush roost]

?

[tepid trellis]

my rogue got absolutely fuck all from m0

[hazy breach]

In the newer apls

[plush roost]

ah its just apl being dumb got it

[lilac stag]

Game knows it’s devourer tier

[split wagon]

Bro same. You’re not alone. Good thing it’s jus pre-seaso

[tepid trellis]

that one didn't get anything either

[lilac stag]

rip

hunter tier

then your rogue gear won’t matter

[tacit maple]

does anyone have an addon alternative to that SmartMisdirect weakaura that always put tricks on your tank, without having to manually change it

[hazy breach]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Auto Tricks on tank Addon - TankMD

[tropic field]

This might be a dumb question but do we use SnD?

[lilac stag]

And you’ll get two mythic daggers week 1

[split wagon]

Of the three specs, which should I commit my time to? That’s the real question lol. I enjoy all 3

[tacit maple]

you'

you're a god among men

[plush roost]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/iKr8HW58cYGkVAUqR1cCCi there ya go, havent spent crests or crafted

[unborn badge]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[stuck arrow]

Ah that's actually pretty good having not crafted.

I made a dagger, but outside of that haven't spent any crests.

[lilac stag]

[hazy breach]

Sometimes it do be like that

[plush roost]

Its old apl give it a break hehe

its trying its best

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/green-mile-im-tired-boss-michael-clarke-duncan-gif-2375696290766999196

[plush roost]

oh its the end of the pull\

[hazy breach]

Idk why theres a delay inbetween the dance and backstab though

[plush roost]

Its just trying to maximize dance uptime

before pull is over

[hazy breach]

Oh if its at the end of a pull that makes sense

[lilac stag]

yeah just hilarious to see

Sorry I should have said that

[stuck arrow]

At end of pull, yeah. But backstab?

Maybe energy starved?

[fading vector]

im thinking about crafting sparkless dagger to flex between sub/outlaw is it bait?

[lilac stag]

Spark dagger crit haste. Outlaw loves OH wdps

[crisp pond]

@hazy breach sorry for ping, I saw there is a apex talent optimisations with full cp and using a builder. But how much better is it than just playing "normally"?

[stuck arrow]

I mean honestly if you're flexing just craft spark dagger and run on OL loot spec.

[slow fox]

Do we spend on 4cp outside of dance or backstab again for the 6

[fading vector]

that makes sense

[spiral pewter]

after waiting 3 content to be S tier at anything looks like we will wait more patches

[hazy breach]

Sub was S tier last raid

[lilac stag]

Sub is always S tier

[hazy breach]

So idk

[hazy breach]

You finish at 6+ always

[ripe flame]

Yea someone hasnt seen fuu tier list smh

[fading vector]

i just wasnt sure if i would be fucking myself over, vet crests are at least pretty easy to get all things considered

[hazy breach]

Like 1% or so for trickster and like 3% for deathstalker

[lilac stag]

For STOP FUCKING LOOKING AT TIER LISTS.

[crisp pond]

alright thanks xoxo

[slow fox]

Sweet

[spiral pewter]

i mean i lvled up already my arcane with 6 button anyway by side

[tulip light]

@plush roost any reason u crafted wrist over cloak?

[plush roost]

on my split toon? I have a vet track cloak and i had adventurer wrists

[lilac stag]

could just run s3 cloak and boots in heroic

[plush roost]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cCChriJZWgdjtvAS9DxJ6A

it didnt have enchants or anything on quick sim XD

[stuck arrow]

Lol but then you have to think for yourself.

Clearly what's best for RWF and high level M+ is best at all levels of play.

[lilac stag]

bruh people can’t figure out 2 button spec

[spiral needle]

that's the real hack, wait and see what echo/limit rogues play

[stuck arrow]

Lol see that's what I expected. I was like 90% sure I was a good 5-10% below optional pre raid gear. 😂

[gusty jungle]

Hi do we still want to do that ? or its only under bloodlust now ? "Try to ensure that you always have :ancientarts: active for your Darkest Night buffed :Eviscerate:s during :ShadowDance:. (This can mean using :ShadowStrike: at full CP to activate it)."

[lilac stag]

imagine buying enchants in this market

[left ledge]

i leveled two rogues only intending to play sub

[umbral bone]

99 percent of people aren't going to benefit from the aa optimization so funny

Which is such a small gain too

[hazy breach]

[left ledge]

considering sub's playerbase

[lilac stag]

he doesn’t know

[left ledge]

just one person doing it already bonks the 99 percent

also 1-3% is not that small tbh

for such a simple optimization to make

[stuck arrow]

I mean isn't everyone going to benefit from more damage?

1% is pretty big.

[lilac stag]

That small gain is also kinda big gain in priority target dmg if people care about it.

[hazy breach]

As it does not mention bloodlust its not a condition reliant upon bloodlust

[lilac stag]

unless fuu sending me misinformation

[gusty jungle]

@hazy breach i see it on ytb video thats why im here asking 🙂

[azure mauve]

i'd love for the AA optimization to have more conditionals

like
Have you done your taxes - yes

[lilac stag]

YouTube guides are typically outdated the day they’re uploaded

Especially at expansion start

[stuck arrow]

Did the void trinket get fixed in Sims yet?

[lilac stag]

Look at the FAQ update list for how frequently shit changed already

[azure mauve]

wait wdym

[vale pine]

the condition changed a lot recently

[oblique spade]

So basically, if we're on the dancefloor and we've got our dancing shoes on, if we don't have an AA proc, just use shadowstrike until we get one, coup > ST > evis, back to dancing?

[vale pine]

what you find in guides/faq or bot commands in here is the latest finding

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[vale pine]

^

[hazy breach]

And if they dont dance then theyre no friends of mine

[stuck arrow]

It was literally not working at all in rogue Sims like Wednesday / Thursday last week.

[azure mauve]

wtf

do i have to upgrade that shit now

[stuck arrow]

Idk. 😂

Maybe?

[steep raven]

btw, it's not said anywhere but do we do the optimization on 2 target for BP?

[chilly kite]

how do you fix the infinite loading wheel for raidbots?

[hazy breach]

Yes

[steep raven]

ty!

[unborn badge]

I'm pretty new to retail optimisations, does the !aa command only apply to DS or is the 'OR' implicating the trickster path too

[hazy breach]

Its for trickster too

per #subtlety-faq

[calm cloud]

only skimmed over the crucible thing in the raidbot discord and i think i read domething about crucible only proccing from spell casts so sub can't even procc it in the sim.

[lilac stag]

At this point we need a !faq on speed dial.

[calm cloud]

so the "only on lust" is out the window now?

[lilac stag]

like 3 days ago

Keep up

[stuck arrow]

😂 got to love start of xpac rota changes.

[lilac stag]

just wait for the is good now?!?!

[calm cloud]

just so im in the loop again in dance we SS if we don't have AA up and its not st if we have atleast 1 supercharged cp ?

[lilac stag]

Since this hasn’t been spammed enough

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[plush roost]

Just ended a 5 min dummmy with 37.5k and i didnt fucking LOG IT AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[calm cloud]

but thats missing the non sectec

[swift tinsel]

does Danger Sense show up in logs?

[stuck arrow]

Depends on ShT stacks. If you have enough ShT to get AA proc use it, if not, play normally.

[lilac stag]

Why are you so bad?

[plush roost]

my dummy sim is 33k btw

[swift tinsel]

HUGE

[lilac stag]

PvP talent boost

[plush roost]

Can u warmode in city actually?

good question

[lilac stag]

You can

[frail bone]

yeah

[plush roost]

Thats good info for PEAK RAGEBAIT

[lilac stag]

I gotchu

[gusty jungle]

Someone know how this sigil work ? like if i hit a dragon i got a crit proc and if its a beast if haste ? cause im close to 18 % hast and if its a majority of haste proc im not sure its worth it

[lilac stag]

DFA if you really want to

[iron whale]

OMG do you really use Gloomblade?

[lilac stag]

By any chance did you look it up on wowhead for spell data / comments

[iron whale]

wdym

[gusty jungle]

@lilac stag hehe 😉

https://tenor.com/view/out-disappear-bye-vanished-gif-4932063

[lilac stag]

I’m gonna go with a nope.

Beast: Critical Strike
Mechanical: Critical Strike
Aberration: Haste
Elemental: Haste
Demon: Haste
Humanoid: Mastery
Dragonkin: Mastery
Undead: Versatility
Giant: Versatility
Critter: Versatility

[left ledge]

my name is connected to a somewhat dark time for this spec

[hazy breach]

You said you were constantly running out of energy after casting shuriken storm, so i asked if you were in melee range

[stuck arrow]

He means you get an absurd amount of energy from ShT.

[hazy breach]

If you are not in melee range auto attacking youre losing out on most of your energy regen and combo point regen

[lilac stag]

also why the BP Coup macro isn’t working

[iron whale]

but 🙁

[stuck arrow]

When the doom gets so bad it turned to gloom.

[plush roost]

YOU MEAN PHENOMINAL TIME

[iron whale]

could it be that the issue is I don't play trickster?
cause I hate Trickster, so maybe im trying to make it work on Deathstalker and it just can't?

[hazy breach]

Because youre literally overcapping most of your energy while dance is up, so speccing tea and vigor is not ideal

[iron whale]

autoing restore energy faster? (sorry im a turbocasual)

[left ledge]

you know, i might get shit for this but lowkey i enjoyed it for a while

even though it was completely degenerate

[lilac stag]

playing DS and using tea and vigor is certainly a way to tank your dps in m+

[iron whale]

I been maining sub rogue since Legion's end but I was always a casual lol

[stuck arrow]

Yes. Auto attacks proc shadow techniques. That gets you flat energy Regen & also free combo points.

[woeful barn]

Outlaw is like 5k ahead of my Sub sims so Sub is the play

pushing like 60k

[iron whale]

ok.

I noticed being out of energy all the time while doing dungeons, during pack pulls

it's painfully frustrating

[keen dome]

Sims aren't the be-all-end-all.

[lilac stag]

You’re not going to have energy outside of dance

[willow knoll]

Feel like im never out of energy hardly

[woeful barn]

ofc lol

[lilac stag]

That’s how the spec is purposefully designed to play

[willow knoll]

Except in just odd moments that aren't very long

[lilac stag]

you’re also in dance a shit ton

[willow knoll]

But you have SD up so much that it almost doesnt matter

[iron whale]

is DS viable at all outside raiding/ST?

[left ledge]

no

[lilac stag]

up to 10-12s sure

Want to push anything and you’re intint

[stuck arrow]

I mean. You can play it if you want. It'll be suboptimal. But it'll work.

At your level it's probably more important to have fun than to hyper optimize.

[lilac stag]

It’s just not well thought out for Sub

but fun is more important.

So if you’re having fun, make they shit work

[stuck arrow]

Or at all. 😂 Very buggy, too.

[iron whale]

ahah I love that you guys are saying this 🖤

[trim fractal]

Are we up after the new sims

[iron whale]

makes me happy

[trim fractal]

We like middle of the pack now?

Or are we about to be the kings

[lilac stag]

we don’t do lists and labels here

[onyx flame]

We are always kings

[iron whale]

im just a fantasy enjoyer, while I do like the added animation for Coup, the Deathstalker fantasy and all the extra shadowy visuals are so essentia lto me

[trim fractal]

Do I let my raid know I'm the main character?

I'll take all the tier

[jaunty fossil]

hi guys subt rogue comeback to meta after last tunning ?

[lilac stag]

What content you want to do will ultimately impact how important trying to min/max rogue is.

[jagged coyote]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

Shew warlock

[keen dome]

Sure, why not

[lilac stag]

YouTubers

[keen dome]

It's always meta in our hearts

[jaunty fossil]

ye i know rogue always special thing for rogue players ❤️

[lilac stag]

Nah we’re just too stubborn to change

[tacit maple]

like, all of them...or just Petko particularly lol

[onyx flame]

If you wanna know the „meta“ you can let petko rot your brain on yt

[jaunty fossil]

we gonna do which item first craft anyone know i am sorry for that question but i am not see the guide

[lilac stag]

test of wills

[hazy breach]

It is definitely in the guides, but a mainhand

[jaunty fossil]

i listen only maximum for meta talk

[lilac stag]

[vague oar]

I have a stupid question about the aa optimization. I thought aa always procs if u have 5 or more shadow technique. How can u end up with 5+ stacks but not have aa active?

[onyx flame]

Just as dumb as Petiko so you are fine

[hazy breach]

If you used a finisher and got the refund the previous gcd

[lilac stag]

Well good news is he couldn’t pick out a sub rogue out of a lineup. Let alone figure out what the spec is good at.

[hazy breach]

Or if you had 1/3 sht stacks when you hit with premed and then you procced it during that global

[lilac stag]

he’s assa one trick. Needs jpc for guidance.

[jaunty fossil]

I’ve always believed that Rogue being less played makes me happier than it being very popular and played by everyone.

[lilac stag]

whatever makes you happy

We’re here for you buddy

[vague oar]

Oo gotcha. I'll start keeping an eye out for that then. Thanks eleem

[willow knoll]

rogue sucks in everything. playing BG3 and wanting to make a rogue

but it's the worst class in the game

[raw pond]

new sub rogue here (sadly coming from sin rip) what is the circumstance we cast these together?

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

if we are in aoe why are we not casting black powder first?

[hazy breach]

No

Coup de Grace does more damage than black powder, regardless of target counts

[lilac stag]

Rip assa? Weird take

[stuck arrow]

I mean the game is supposed to be fun.

Some people derive fun from optimizing and competing. Some derive it from playing what they think is cool.

How much you need to optimize depends on your goals. If you want to mythic raid and push keys - optimizing is important. If you just kind of want to have fun on a character you think is cool and maybe do a normal raid - do what feels fun.

[raw pond]

not rip assa for that reason, just slower then sub rn with energy regen so im here

[willow knoll]

I like rogue where it's at.

[astral mountain]

Honestly been having a blast on sub and outlaw this expansion.

[willow knoll]

Know what I hate is when I play a class in something and then it becomes meta and it gets flooded with people

I hate that more than not playing meta

[steady sail]

I ran some M0's with my friends and they kept chain pulling between packs so I swapped out of The First Dance but all the guides say to use it. Is there a rule of thumb for how often I need it to happen in a dungeon to be worth?

[vagrant fulcrum]

Sorry to target you (it’s really not personal) but I actually can’t stand this stance, yes they’re clearly not going to be as correct about rogue as this discord - the thing is it sometimes feel like we’re shitting on people without remotely trying to achieve what they are (yes tier lists aren’t representative of reality, projections using panel data are unreliable, let alone predicting blizzard’s tuning whims)
The issue is these people’s livelihoods are driven by clicks and engagement and the big question on people’s minds whenever a new patch / changes drop is what’s good - these tier list people are trying to earn money, instead of dragging the entire thing down could we perhaps add some more rigor to the process / inform them?

[lilac stag]

you mean like this channel getting flooded because it’s a “2 button spec” now?

[hazy breach]

its basically never worth to untalent it

[willow knoll]

I guess, I was actually disappointed it was tbh.

[hazy breach]

Even getting a couple of resets (which you will almost always get after bosses)

Makes it worthwhile

[willow knoll]

I was watching old rogue videos to learn the class

and halfway confused why I didnt have symbols of death

until I realized it got pruned in midnight

[lilac stag]

most everyone will disappear from this channel in 3-4 weeks

[willow knoll]

But when I looked into it more

does it make that much of a difference?

Like didnt you just macro symbols and shit anyways

[keen dome]

I'll never stop posting

[lilac stag]

Duh

[hazy breach]

No, thats why it got pruned

[astral mountain]

We saying Sub rogue is meta now?

[willow knoll]

Yeah it seemed like just another button to push before burst

[hazy breach]

The main thing that mattered in pruning was the combo point based cdr

[willow knoll]

like it didnt seem like it really added more complexity

[keen dome]

We can say Sub is meta right now.

[lilac stag]

@keen dome I need my EU, OCE & Aussie fix. Keeps me sane as a yank.

[willow knoll]

unless there's variables I dont know about

[keen dome]

It won't be accurate, but.

[willow knoll]

What about rupture

just a dot to keep track of I guess?

[stuck arrow]

The wild thing is that honestly - if any spec should have had that pruned it was probably OL.

Ah well.

[lilac stag]

useless filler

[keen dome]

Rupture was just a maintence button, yeah

[empty hamlet]

Ugh, I think the main concern was cd bloat and misalignment
But there is a fine line between “trim the bushes” and “take down a tree”. And I think current sub is actually a latter

[keen dome]

You pushed it, and kept it rolling the entire fight. That was it.

[willow knoll]

So really it becoming 2 button didnt even change the class identity that much

[past token]

any chance the engineering embellishments are minimally competitive for the second craft?

[lilac stag]

rupture lessened the identity.

Assa is the dot spec

[willow knoll]

right right

[lean rover]

I swear CDM is about to give me a mental breakdown, any other decent addons to track buffs?

[hollow spear]

Stop the Sub is giga OP right now.

[keen dome]

Yeah, it didn't. We lost Flag, which was our big amp. That was probably the most impactful change.

[vagrant fulcrum]

I don’t think outlaw could survive that prune tbh, sub had other things going on - OL never really did

[keen dome]

Symbols is kinda w/e, Rupture isn't even anything to think about.

[astral mountain]

It can be kinda nice to have a rogue spec that is a little simpler to turn on when you’re chilling then swap to like Outlaw or Sin. All 3 specs feel fun to play rn

[onyx flame]

You clearly missed the point

[willow knoll]

We will probably get more buttons later

I mean in the next expac or something

idk

lmao

[keen dome]

That's my feeling. i imagine Sub will get a new button at some point during Midnight if not TLT.

[willow knoll]

I'm kind of fine with it because more buttons doesn't necessarily equate to complexity anyways

[wraith sphinx]

sub is insane rn it fixed my marriage and I'm not even married

[willow knoll]

FFXIV taught me that

[hazy breach]

Surely theyll make goremaw actually feel good to press

[stuck arrow]

Why not exactly? So long as they tuned it decently it would have been better for OL to be able to absorb some down time without losing CD uptime.

[willow knoll]

I do think its weird that they have these dead buttons on the trees though

[keen dome]

https://tenor.com/view/the-office-spooked-spook-scared-surprised-gif-10764348345828902801

[willow knoll]

Like they probably warrant a looking at from bliz right

[spiral needle]

make goremaw make finishers hit harder instead of giving more energy you dont need, ezpz

[lilac stag]

Spending more than five minute and using OBA doesn’t really make a tier list that isn’t a complete joke

they can easily do some research in the discords

Like some do

[keen dome]

I forgot we still had Goremaw's for a few days

[wraith sphinx]

goremaws has been chilling there since df

[astral mountain]

I forget we have access to preparation lol

[stuck arrow]

By turning it into Flag?

[wraith sphinx]

Untouched unscathed

[lilac stag]

they choose to just throw slop at the walls 10-20 minutes at a go every 4 days instead

[willow knoll]

weird

I wonder why they just ignore it

like why not just buff it or change it.

[keen dome]

blackmail

[hazy breach]

Lots of ways to do it

[lilac stag]

They hate me

[willow knoll]

Like even if I don't take goremaw

[random flame]

someday Goremaw will rise up!

[willow knoll]

The option to would be nice in my head

Apex talents weren't that great because they're expected to be taken

[onyx flame]

Maximums „Tierlist“ is even more ridiculous because a lot of top performing spes were but in B/C in fear of nerfs.

[willow knoll]

I mean that's just me tbf

[spiral needle]

blizz cant afford more than a handful of devs for 40 specs

aint no one got time to rework goremaw

[willow knoll]

But I feel like they don't really add anything because there's no world you wouldn't take the apex talents

[keen dome]

I really like the Apex and feel like they're a much better take on Hero Talents conceptually.

[lilac stag]

He at least states his is just for content

[willow knoll]

I like them conceptually

I just meant in terms of them being on the tree etc.

[wraith sphinx]

Goremaw should be what supercharges our combo points

I think that'd be good (awful)

[random flame]

yea calling them talents is weird since they are essentailly required

basically jsut new level 90 skills for everyone

[stuck arrow]

All tier lists just got content though, no?

[spiral needle]

goremaw doing anything other than giving energy we don't need would be good

[onyx flame]

Petko‘s is for survival and i don‘t mean the spec

[jaunty heath]

yo gamers

apex dosnt work on coupe right

[keen dome]

Someday I'm going to make my WoWTier website that's just a random tierlist every time you load the page.

[willow knoll]

they should give rogue a trick attack

[jaunty heath]

no reason to snipe coup with apex

[willow knoll]

like lust

[lilac stag]

No. They’re all jokes yet most creators treat them as though they’re gospel

[willow knoll]

[lilac stag]

Max says it’s a joke

[jaunty heath]

!tricsk

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Auto Tricks on tank Addon - TankMD

[willow knoll]

something like that

give us a raid buff, make us desireable in PVE

[tacit maple]

god no, dont add trick attack to wow

cordinating an entire raid groups cooldowns into 20s

[willow knoll]

lmao

[tacit maple]

is the worst

[plush roost]

5% hunters mark uhmmm

idt thats legal LOL

[spiral needle]

game already has damage debuffs

[stuck arrow]

All you need to do is add smoke bomb back as a pve talent tbh.

[spiral needle]

gotta give something janky so rogues have "flavor"

[tacit maple]

atrophic is janky af

[keen dome]

give Rogue 'Fellowship manouvers' from Lord of the rings online.

[tacit maple]

is barely works, and sucks

thats jank

[random flame]

smoke in pve was fun

[willow knoll]

I always wondered if rogue being good at PvP impacted their balance decisions

[swift tinsel]

groupwide Cheat Death

ez

[spiral needle]

its good enough to bring a rogue to mythic raid as long as the fight design allows it to work, shame about all other content

[willow knoll]

Like imo they shouldn't even take pvp into consideration when balancing PvE but I always wondered if there's someone at blizzard who's like

'Well they're good at pvp'

[jaunty heath]

@hazy breach ello

[random flame]

even SoD gave us a raid debuff

[keen dome]

We have a raid buff. It's atrophic.

[sinful zephyr]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[keen dome]

And our delightful personalities.

[astral mountain]

Honestly I struggle to really comprehend when or why to use tricks of the trade a lot.
I try to remember to use it but there is just a disconnect for me when I think about it

Ik it’s threat trade but that’s it

[onyx flame]

With trickster it lasts 60min

[swift tinsel]

I use it once in a dungeon and never think about it again

[keen dome]

I just don't use it ever because shadow dance.

[swift tinsel]

what they need to do is add the damage amp back to Tricks

[willow knoll]

If I'm ripping aggro from a tank I feel like idk

that's their fault

[keen dome]

Yes, they 100% should. I want to cause PROBLEMS in pug groups.

[astral mountain]

Okay so realistically you just wanna use it at the beginning of the dungeon and it works the entire dungeon?

[swift tinsel]

I want my holy priest's Holy Fire to fuckin craaaaaaaank dude

[willow knoll]

yeah it lasts like an hour

[stuck arrow]

Just use it at a start of a dungeon and it's always on.

Outside of that - worth using on sin/OL if you like picking up new adds.

[astral mountain]

I could of swore it use to be like a 6 second thing

[keen dome]

Trickster hero talent.

Be aware it's kinda janky and weird.

[onyx flame]

Yes, after you pressed it you have to attack something within 30 seconds

[astral mountain]

Okay, thank you for the explanation cause I’ve messed with it some and sometimes I feel like it worked and others I can rip agro so I’m like wtf is it doing 😂

[stuck arrow]

No you don't. Can just set and forget? Buff goes on you not the target.

[swift tinsel]

yes you do

it doesn't transfer threat til you do damage

[onyx flame]

It is 30 seconds on me, only after attack it is 60min

[willow knoll]

feel like I forget to use it 90 percent of the time tbh

[swift tinsel]

otherwise its justa temp buff that goes away

[stuck arrow]

Huh. Maybe I'm out to lunch and just haven't had it up for half my dungeons. 😂

[willow knoll]

but im bad so

probably a me problem

[astral mountain]

So you press it, attack within 30 seconds after pressing it. And it stays on for 60 min or do you have to refresh it?

[swift tinsel]

if you don't attack something in that 30 second buff window it just goes away

[lilac stag]

You have to hit something within initial tricks window

[onyx flame]

Yes it stays. Only refresh after death

[astral mountain]

Thank you 😂
I feel like it’s just such a weird ability I never felt like it was doing anything

[onyx flame]

If you see a 60min tricks buff on your bufflist you done it right

[swift tinsel]

it can be somewhat kinda sorta helpful with gathers if your tank struggles

but that's usually a skill issue sorted out once you do actual content

[stuck arrow]

It's not super important right now the way threat is tuned.

It's nice though, helps when you have bad tanks that pull poorly.

[iron whale]

if I decide to play vigor+thistle, would it make more sense to exchange warning signs with planned execution?

[swift tinsel]

warning signs gives more shadow techniques stacks

[onyx flame]

My wife tries tanking right now, it is super useful there

[swift tinsel]

so you'd want that

[lilac stag]

please don’t play these

[keen dome]

I imagine it won't have much impact because all you'd achieve is being able to push Backstab more often.

Sub doesn't really have energy in the sense of the other specs. outside of cooldowns, we don't do any real damage and don't need energy. In cooldowns we effectively have infinite energy and it doesn't matter.

Thistle doesn't give Mastery anymore so it's really not very useful for Sub.

[iron whale]

I see... and Subterfuge is pointless cause it postpones Shadow Focus?

[lilac stag]

I wonder how close thistle tea and not taking any talent are

[stuck arrow]

I mean. Maybe? I feel like it's probably just better to have warning signs for ST.

Not sure.

If that feels better for you, give it a go. Do know is very far from optimal however.

[keen dome]

Honestly not sure, but you'd have to drop pretty impactful damage talents to take it.

[swift tinsel]

now I wanna see lol

simming

[keen dome]

Like, 10% more crit chance on most finishers or an extra combie point.

So I cannot imagine Subterfuge would ever compete.

[iron whale]

why did they remove mastery from thistle btw?

[lilac stag]

We don’t work for blizz

[stuck arrow]

Subterfuge feels nice for leveling, TBH.

[keen dome]

I imagine beause they wanted to remove a button, and it became fully automated. So if it still had Mastery you'd just randomly get Mastery. Which'd feel pointless.

It's a natural design logic, imo.

[lilac stag]

They also can’t seemingly fix mastery on outlaw

[shrewd lantern]

we dont even take tea

was more of a sin talent

[swift tinsel]

was feasible last season

[iron whale]

is there any way to conceal cold blood or dismiss it automatically outside of combat?
I hate the visuals so much

[swift tinsel]

in m+ where you just macroed it to dance

[empty cargo]

Visual is 🍒👏🙏

[keen dome]

You can make a canclaura macro I guess or just click the buff off.

[shrewd lantern]

coldblood still better

let's be real

[swift tinsel]

hence "feasible"

[stuck arrow]

Tbh @iron whale - I'd try making sure you're auto attacking in AoE instead of taking tea. But. Like I said if fun is more important than being optimal for you give it a go.

[iron whale]

how would you suggest the cancel aura macro to be?

[shrewd lantern]

tea always felt weird on sub

[keen dome]

You can just do /cancelaura Cold Blood and then macro it with something else.

[shrewd lantern]

since energy is a non factor

[keen dome]

I dunno what though. Maybe your mount?

[swift tinsel]

it was the mastery people used it for basically

[shrewd lantern]

i

[swift tinsel]

since we still had sod and you got energy from that

[shrewd lantern]

would be surprised people didnt get more damage

[swift tinsel]

but placebo folks wanted more energy in aoe

[shrewd lantern]

from just playing coldblood

[keen dome]

Yeah

[shrewd lantern]

lol

big sectech crit was

[swift tinsel]

and thought it was tea doing it when it was actually vigor

[keen dome]

It's always the "I want more energy" "but you aren't doing any damage at that point"

[shrewd lantern]

+we are literally drowning in energy during dances

lol

[swift tinsel]

yeah honestly its just perception of how the spec actually works vs reality when it comes to damage allocation

[keen dome]

I think it helps when you understand Sub's damage profile

[shrewd lantern]

random storm bp spam outside dance doesnt do shit

lol

[swift tinsel]

thinking you need damage at all times instead of looking at where the damage actually comes from

[keen dome]

Yeah, precisely

[swift tinsel]

but tbf the disparity in damage and pace was quite big for people to get accustomed to vs pretty much any other spec in the game

[shrewd lantern]

i mean sub was a burst spec

extremely so

but yeaah

[keen dome]

Betwen dance time was posting time

[shrewd lantern]

outside dances you could have just aa'ed something farming stech

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel have sim?

[swift tinsel]

taking tea over CBK was a 2.6% loss, taking neither was 5.3% loss

in a quick dungeon slice

[keen dome]

lmao

[lilac stag]

lol

[shrewd lantern]

[hazy breach]

tea itself does quite literally nothing in aoe

[swift tinsel]

ope

[hazy breach]

vigor isnt awful, but not great

[swift tinsel]

ye tea itself is doodoo

the extra energy is what folks really want

which you get from vigor

[shrewd lantern]

vigor feels pointless when bp spam in non dances

[iron whale]

will bind it to stealth, thanks !!!

[shrewd lantern]

feels insignificant

[swift tinsel]

if they deleted tea actually granting energy and didn't tell anyone I bet they wouldn't notice

[hazy breach]

yep its insignificant compared to +10% crit on every bp

[earnest prairie]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization:

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have Darkest Night up OR A supercharged combo point? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).

[shrewd lantern]

idk when people play rogue

expecting to spam buttons

but dont want to play outlaw

really makes you think

[keen dome]

You can spam buttons as Sub. It's called typing puns into group chat

[shrewd lantern]

just have toys on your bars

(not the ones that disable your aa)

[swift tinsel]

just a continuation of people not really having much of an idea of how rogue works across the board

[keen dome]

I actually pet my cat in WoW

He goes beep

[swift tinsel]

I'm still the only max-level one in guild lol

[shrewd lantern]

https://www.wowhead.com/item=122129/fire-eaters-vial

macro to dance

rare visual hack

[onyx flame]

eww outlaw

[swift tinsel]

wym its the only other decent rogue spec

[shrewd lantern]

outlaw is the fast paced spec of the bunch

[onyx flame]

Yeah but you play a temu pirate, no thanks

[lilac stag]

lol check sub apm va outlaw

[shrewd lantern]

nowadays its yeah....

was more fun in SL

but thats because SL sub made me want to unsub

unironically

dogass spec

strike evis strike evis ER evis

repeat for 5mins

[swift tinsel]

implacable just makes sin feel butt

[lilac stag]

Outlaw back to SL playstyle

[shrewd lantern]

idk i like implacable

[swift tinsel]

can get to 80% without even thinking then you just

[karmic rose]

isn't sub exactly this right now?

[shrewd lantern]

i kind of hated the mongo mut env spam

[swift tinsel]

sit there

[shrewd lantern]

that was sin the last 3 seasons

[swift tinsel]

til it runs out

[shrewd lantern]

well sub has burst kind of now

in SL we had 80% blades uptime

[keen dome]

I think current Sub is my favourite it's been. But I did really enjoy TWW Sub a lot.

[swift tinsel]

I enjoy it mostly

[lilac stag]

@swift tinsel I’m convinced no one actually knows what they like about any spec

[keen dome]

I would like 1 additional button and 1 additional mechanic.

[keen dome]

even me??

[shrewd lantern]

7.2.5 sub was the spec's peak

outside of the time's DFA would glitch you through the floor

that was not peak

[lilac stag]

You just like purple since it taste like Welch’s Grape Juice

[swift tinsel]

I'm usually a moment-to-moment vibes guy

[keen dome]

What's Welch's Grape Juice

[swift tinsel]

no tier lists are gonna tell me that, only !vibe in off-topic

[karmic rose]

are we hitiing 18% haste breakpoint with craft + vet crests spent?

[swift tinsel]

you can

[lilac stag]

Google

[swift tinsel]

unless you got cucked with drops

[outer nebula]

The neck from Spire is in all BIS lists but when I sim the March neck, it's simming a lot higher probably because of the second socket. Is the spire neck not simming correctly?

[shrewd lantern]

tbh you need to have had real shit drop

[left ledge]

do we know what bosses are pure ST

[swift tinsel]

I still have 3x adventurer slots

[shrewd lantern]

to not reach it

[karmic rose]

is the dps jump substantial once you getto 18%?

[swift tinsel]

got double drops in 3 other slots this week

[keen dome]

https://digitalcontent.api.tesco.com/v2/media/ghs/0528215c-f489-4b03-819d-ca2b1b960762/8f3bd2e4-42e1-41ae-8fdc-fa9cb7971182.jpeg?h=960&w=960 looks weird

[shrewd lantern]

no you get another global in dance

[keen dome]

I have no idea what the fuck this juice is

[swift tinsel]

felt so bad trading pieces away in pugs

[shrewd lantern]

which is nice

its like what

8.1 or 8.2 secs?

when you reach 700ish haste

[keen dome]

Now if you'd said Ribena...

[swift tinsel]

googles Ribena

[stuck arrow]

Nah, HFC. I'll die on this hill.

Soul cap was goated.

[shrewd lantern]

its roughly 9 globals in dance

ok mfs would have hated hfc

because you unironically didnt do shit

outside of the 1min windows

[swift tinsel]

dang that sounds banger

never had blackcurrant juice/soda

[fierce ivy]

HFC would've been fine if we didn't prepull like idiots making me stuck in combat in cloth full mastery gear

[keen dome]

It's good.

[shrewd lantern]

actually just finger butthole make sure rupture didnt fall off

no hfc was butt because the pull you got double soulcap in opener

was the one you wiped

:))))

[keen dome]

I don't drink it often because it's very high sugar, but it's nice and better tasting than coke.

the real goat is like, ginger beer or cream soda though

[swift tinsel]

oh man I'm a cream soda fanatic lol

[keen dome]

It's so good

[shrewd lantern]

also SL sub had the jank lego swap prepull shit

[swift tinsel]

I'm thankful as hell the Dr. Pepper zero sugar cream soda is really good

unironically, Faygo cream soda is stellar

[keen dome]

Sprite is also good.

[swift tinsel]

in spite of its reputation

[keen dome]

Tropical Sprite chefs kiss

[shrewd lantern]

As long as you dont drink buzzballz