subtlety

[still gazelle]

Oh nm.

You were saying back in the day.

[marble sail]

u would if ur in sb tho right

[fair stump]

It doesn't exist nowadays so theres no point

[hazy breach]

Yes, and if you want to play deathstalker just swap the dance+sectech to dance+storm

[hazy breach]

Not really no

[still gazelle]

So what's it used for now? Couple seconds of stealth goodness?

[fair stump]

Bump

[fair stump]

If you're low on CP and want a quick shadowstrike to refill your CP points, that's about it

[hazy breach]

Hard to know for sure

[fair stump]

But that's usually done off-burst, so I don't think its THAT significatively

[hazy breach]

Because we dont know how much theyll nerf bp by

[still gazelle]

I know this is a ridiculously stupid question, but all of the dooming aside, is there any consensus among the big brain theory crafters with all the stuff happening Tuesday which specialization is probably the best for raid or keys?

[marble sail]

sub raid, outlaw keys

[willow knoll]

I mean, sub

[fair stump]

reroll paladin

Isn't outlaw weak now?

[marble sail]

what, no

[willow knoll]

I'd pick sub for keys too tbh

lol

[still gazelle]

I am comfortable with Sub and Sin and I don't want to craft a slow weapon.

[marble sail]

they are just weak for raid because uptime loss is super bad for them

[still gazelle]

Mythic plus is my favorite content, so I wanted to see if subtlety would be good for keys

[hazy breach]

But my initial guess is that its not changing when you have PP talented (ie aoe talents), might change with pure ST setup though

[shrewd lantern]

i mean….

[fair stump]

I mean, unless you're pushing super high keys, the spec should be viable

[shrewd lantern]

both are fine

if you want title in pugs dont play rogue

lmao

[fair phoenix]

Prob u will do good dmg as sub

[blissful gale]

But bosses are more cleave then st

[marble sail]

yes it will be good

[fair phoenix]

Aoe nerf impacts but we havensome extra dmg for boss

[marble sail]

@blissful gale

[shrewd lantern]

bosses are usually

st

[fair stump]

Thanks

[willow knoll]

Sub did great AOE anyways

[shrewd lantern]

and adds spawn sometimes

[willow knoll]

I dont think the nerf will even matter that much honestly

[fair phoenix]

Time to bp

[still gazelle]

How is Sub in raid? Do you still need perfect cooldown management like Mythic druid boss from DragonFlight?

[willow knoll]

I wasnt running potent powder and still stomping

[shrewd lantern]

nah shit prob dies

within sectech coup

[marble sail]

it will literally matter by 8-10% overall in a dung

[shrewd lantern]

after week 1-2

[willow knoll]

Yeah but 8-10 percent only matters relative

[hazy breach]

It also might be like half of that

Who knows

[fair phoenix]

Its a lot

[willow knoll]

Sure is

still doesn't matter

[shrewd lantern]

Your average pugger it’ll probably be less

[fair phoenix]

Mastry scalea

[hazy breach]

Dpeneds on how diligent blizzard are

[shrewd lantern]

since pug tanks

pull small dick

[woven ruin]

sims not done or what am i missing

[hazy breach]

Has nothing to do with sims

[fair phoenix]

Prob we Win until 10s lol

[hollow spear]

I am convinced that this nerf will be a major roadblock to being able to do +10s

Major

[hazy breach]

Sub has several different IDs for most spells

[marble sail]

blizzy dosnt always do what they say they are doing

[hazy breach]

IE: Eviscerate, Eviscerate (Shadowed Finisher), Eviscerate (Ancient Arts)

[shrewd lantern]

i mean anyone that didnt see a bp nerf coming

[fair phoenix]

Lol

[hazy breach]

Blizzard must manually buff all 3 of these

[still gazelle]

Maybe it potentially not being a huge nerf is intended

Ahh

[hazy breach]

Same with BP, shadowstrike, backstab and gloomblade

If they remember all of them, the numbers in the pin are correct

[marble sail]

also same towards the buffs...

[woven ruin]

oh yikes

[fair phoenix]

Blizzard cannot even release The details perfectly lol 😂

[hazy breach]

But if they forget some of them

[still gazelle]

Talk to your contacts at Blizzard Eleem

[hazy breach]

Then its not gonna be as much of a buff/nerf

[still gazelle]

Make them aware

[hazy breach]

I dont have any contacts at blizzard

[fair phoenix]

Time to go panda

[willow knoll]

I mean didn't virtually every class get hit with an AOE nerf

[fair phoenix]

[hazy breach]

But also like every single new talent/hero talent/tier has been bugged in some way related to that

So

[arctic abyss]

nO

[hazy breach]

[willow knoll]

No?

[still gazelle]

Shit, I've been here since Legion. Didn't we have a dev active occasionally?

[willow knoll]

I mean according to the list like atleast half of them did

[still gazelle]

Has he totally peaced out?

[willow knoll]

lol

[shrewd lantern]

i mean dooming before raid release

[hazy breach]

There was one guy that was responsible for the 10.2 rework yes

[shrewd lantern]

is just comedy

[fair phoenix]

Mage Wins funnel in aoe by losing default aoe

[hazy breach]

But they typically shuffle around their devs

[fair phoenix]

Who is a win

[hazy breach]

For different projects on different classes etc

[shrewd lantern]

and keys who gives a shit

devo/mage/x

is gonna be default comp

calling it

[fair phoenix]

I have a mage só ggs

But rogue so funny

[shrewd lantern]

mage is never bad

its just half the playerbase doesnt have hands

[fair phoenix]

100%

Or like meta on asuna mode

[restive nexus]

Where’s this sim list that’s going around? Can someone share?

[shrewd lantern]

i also played nerubar with a dk

[fair phoenix]

Like only asuna and another crazy chinese playing

[shrewd lantern]

that got yoinked the most

out of all the melee

[fair phoenix]

Dk is New mage

[shrewd lantern]

if the tuning didnt happen

would have went into keys

4 bears

like why play dps when bear was doing more

than 80% of the dps specs

[fair phoenix]

Bear power

Druid meta = best season

[shrewd lantern]

i only included 4 because

in case you need magic dispel

[fair phoenix]

Druid tank ofc

[shrewd lantern]

so a healer might be goodge

[echo lynx]

best rogue specc?

[arctic abyss]

the one u enjoy

[echo lynx]

not my question

[raven mural]

the one u enjoy

[echo lynx]

3/10

slowly edging

[azure thicket]

iwnl rogue spec is probably the one you enjoy

cause u win

never lose

[raven mural]

assass is the bis spec for dooming tbh

so if you like that then play assass

[smoky dust]

did someone already send in the ST SIM with the recent tunings? how are the numbers,

[arctic abyss]

Best - Ass could be best.. but not ur playstyle so you underperform to where u enjoy sub and over perform in which becomes the best spec for you.

[azure thicket]

sin probably gets really really good when the pulls in m+ start to line up with cooldowns

but you probs have to get decently high to hit that breakpoint etc

[plush roost]

ye beta sin did some very disgusting things very underrated spec

[solar charm]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[echo lynx]

i parse 99 on sub or assa

https://tenor.com/view/a-little-uncomfortable-derek-muller-veritasium-a-bit-uncomfortable-kinda-edgy-gif-24985677

[arctic abyss]

farm as sims i believe outlaw is ahead

[echo lynx]

i guess this is the way 😄

[vocal kernel]

whats like a decent sub sim rn?

[arctic abyss]

My sims only running 77k ish

[vocal kernel]

on 5min?

[arctic abyss]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5o16M9px178HGPdSKbMbSG

[shrewd lantern]

1min sim

[arctic abyss]

ops let me swap it

[shrewd lantern]

murder row fishhook

[arctic abyss]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2FafcsyenAfhAR4468VcZt

[gilded ferry]

Did simc for tier already was done?

Wanted to know how we are doing

Saw that DKs were gutted in the last nerf

[marsh spade]

is sub cooking now?

[lilac stag]

cooked more like it

[marsh spade]

oh dang
was thinking of trying out rogue this season

[shrewd lantern]

this server is for dooming only

ty

[shrewd lantern]

then do it

[willow knoll]

I feel like if a DPS isn't speculated to be like top 3

everyone dooms

[marsh spade]

I mean hey, as long as its not like 20% dps behind the top 3 its good?

[spice matrix]

Cleave killed on cleave tier

[limpid sage]

Out of all spec discords I feel like sub is def one of the more optimistic

[shrewd lantern]

open warrior one

m+ dooming

day in day out

[limpid sage]

I’m aware

[hazy breach]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1115271001664663552/1407338290821992538/image.png?ex=69b6a3eb&is=69b5526b&hm=9e0bced0130ede54b0f098d888a12334b0e905a73c826ddd473e7da817fbb3f0&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1061&height=574
Relevant old image

[limpid sage]

Went from fury->sub

[willow knoll]

Literally lol

[shrewd lantern]

except warrior pvpers

[limpid sage]

Was so surprised considering sub was in a worse place in LoU than fury has been in ages

[shrewd lantern]

are seemingly 90% gymbros

idk why

[limpid sage]

Dented legit

xd

[willow knoll]

Wow community kills my vibe.

your spec being good won't make you any less ass at the game.

[lilac stag]

Sky(is always falling)hold

[willow knoll]

Feel like that needs a big PSA

[shrewd lantern]

well you’re expecting people to take accountability

that never happens

[willow knoll]

Well I'm also wrong

lmao

[shrewd lantern]

outside of like super niche retro gamers

[astral axle]

wild that fury is catching a 10% buff

[shrewd lantern]

those guys are usually better

[astral axle]

actually wild

[willow knoll]

It might make them so much percent less ass depending

[shrewd lantern]

warrior will never be bad enough to not be in raid

unless prot war is giga op

[heavy moat]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[shrewd lantern]

raid buff op

prot pal raidbuff is to spellwarding that priest healer in your raid

who is floorpov at movement

[leaden prairie]

Yo guys

Stop sandbagging

I have my eyes on you

[bleak night]

[astral axle]

oh okay

[shrewd lantern]

pressing bp on 1t

gotchu bro

[hollow compass]

can u link me this

[normal compass]

No one use their second dance in blade window

[limpid sage]

Idk why WoW players will spend 4 weeks grinding for a 2% dps increase but refuse to spend 4 hours hitting dummies and reading the wowhead guide for a 20% dps increase

[hollow spear]

According to Charrend, it's assassination that's sandbagging

[hazy breach]

[willow knoll]

It's like that in any game tbh

[hollow spear]

So get on their case, zac

[willow knoll]

People want to take the path of least resistance to improvement

Or feigned improvement atleast

[regal current]

number go up = bigger happy

[willow knoll]

People would rather appear good at something than actually be good

[normal compass]

[hollow spear]

Didn't assassination undersim quite considerably last season, Eleem?

[shrewd lantern]

i cant wait for the mid tier assa aura buff

[glacial hinge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

Depends on how you look at it

[shrewd lantern]

and honestly idk why people play to pug m+

thats like

[hazy breach]

The sim wasnt getting the 4p bug

[shrewd lantern]

worse than league solo q

[willow knoll]

Yeah i aint doing that shit

[hazy breach]

Top logs were

[willow knoll]

pugging anything sucks

[hazy breach]

And obviously if your main cooldown is 60 seconds instead of 90 seconds, you do more damage

[leaden prairie]

I see you bud

Don't think I'm blind

[willow knoll]

You know I thought about creating a meta alt ngl

But I hate everyone class except rogue

So I feel like I'm just here for the long term

[hazy breach]

Do you think blizzard is

[astral axle]

huge if true

[hazy breach]

Do you think they will actually remember to increase and decrease all the clones

Or just the physical parts of the tuning changes

[bleak night]

[astral axle]

Well, all of Blizzard would be blind... but they made airborne irritant single target

[hollow spear]

I think it was more about their spells doing more damage in game than they did in the sim

[willow knoll]

i do wonder how much attention blizzard pays

[leaden prairie]

Hopefully they only decrease

[willow knoll]

I like to think alot

[leaden prairie]

No more increasing

[willow knoll]

but isnt it weird that there's classes in general that got a 20 percent nerf

[hollow spear]

So you could even see a difference in the dummy sim vs dummy log

[hazy breach]

Smh my head zacs praying on our downfall

Without blackpink being in his area

[leaden prairie]

You have gone away with it for too long elerm

It's over now

[willow knoll]

20 percent error at my job can get you canned

[leaden prairie]

First non sub tier

[shrewd lantern]

i remember when

[leaden prairie]

Last album was dog

[shrewd lantern]

tierlists were just for fun opinion pieces

then someone realized

[hollow spear]

The downfall of outlaw really got to zac

[hazy breach]

[shrewd lantern]

its great to farm clicks

from stupid people

[willow knoll]

tier lists can be a good metric to gauge some stuff

[hollow spear]

He's trying to ragebait our tc now

[willow knoll]

its a problem when they get treated like gospel though

[hazy breach]

Just go tumble your weeds my guy. Im too busy pressing strike+eviscerate over and over

[leaden prairie]

You guys had your time

[hollow spear]

Dw

[leaden prairie]

Bro ..

Look eleem

Just tell me I don't have to strike at full cp

[hollow spear]

Our time continues

[leaden prairie]

That shit gives me cancer irl

[tame terrace]

1.5%!

[hollow spear]

Nah

[tame terrace]

or some shit idk

[hazy breach]

You generally dont need to

[hollow spear]

0.2%

[tame terrace]

thats huge!

[leaden prairie]

Don't say generally

You know I will do everything

[hollow spear]

(not sure what balance changes did)

[leaden prairie]

Just tell me it was a mistake

[hollow compass]

gg rerolling cat

[plush roost]

I actually expect us to play DS and not have to do it at all to maintain unshakeable drive stacks

[hollow spear]

The strike at full cp doesn't work on French computers

[wintry elm]

with the patch what is diferen now¿

[thorny ridge]

!FUU

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hazy breach]

I updated the FAQ about it

[leaden prairie]

I don't wanna track this buff bro ..

It takes all the fun away from the spec if I can't just react to it

[hollow spear]

There's actually a chance

[native sand]

Hi all, need advise, since AOE got nerfed for sub, will sub still be the spec we play in M+?

[shrewd lantern]

no play mage

[leaden prairie]

Outlaw tier buddy

Get with the times

[shrewd lantern]

if zac can get title being beat by the tank on st idk why people are dooming about current sub

[hazy breach]

Technically the +20% unseen blade damage is an outlaw buff too isnt it

[willow pawn]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GKshVVe_RAXO0I7kFnmg4Nu7kkqbJRV4GItbUHCvLfc/htmlview?gid=1774556142&pru=AAABnRH_jW0*zSEsZoDVGFYSZZxTwcWmxw#gid=1774556142

[hazy breach]

Big trickster stonk!

[willow pawn]

[gentle pike]

bubbling wax doing .6% is that still good?

[shrewd lantern]

well its free

!

[quaint glen]

heyy guyys, i have one question, is it worth to craft dagger now ? as a first embelish and what stats to use ?

Mastery
Haste
? 😄

[fading whale]

how to fix this

[shrewd lantern]

yeah haste mast is safe

[bleak night]

delete this please

[hazy breach]

Bro got the australian icon package

[plush roost]

hey thats pretty gud

[sharp peak]

do you want a dagger now?

[bleak night]

at least shuriken toss is ok

[hazy breach]

shuirken toss

[bleak night]

true mb

[quaint glen]

well i think we will have it whole season so its safe spot right ? 😄

[austere canopy]

Shuriken Toss will out dps arms still

[hollow spear]

You can call it shuriken toss once 12.0.5 hits. Get with the times, bud.

[sharp peak]

is that what is on the guide?

[fading whale]

i got a headache from this

[shrewd lantern]

well crafted offhand is bis so

worst case you pull myth mainhand early

[gilded ferry]

Its been 84 years since this happened

[shrewd lantern]

is you move it to offhand

[sharp peak]

you have to let him reach that conclusion

[celest ice]

my brain hurts reading this

[hazy breach]

Idk how to explain it easier

But its not really hard

Make sure your supercharger is apexed as trickster

[celest ice]

yeah i mean im not just the smartest guy

[hazy breach]

Make sure darkest night is apexed as deathstalker

[hollow spear]

"Sub is such a dumb two button spec." Half the community proceeds to not get some simple ass min max.

[blissful spindle]

What's the simmed % offset of following that or not if you disable in the APL? If it's trivial, then 90% of people can just ignore its existence.

People have this very silly tendency to just look a recommendation and just take every aspect of it at face value without taking the time to understand or further research the actual discrepancy between following and not following. It's happened since literal vanilla wow (swing timers w/ procs).

Rather than doing the sim work and understanding the actual output difference, they'll complain on the Internet about something they don't actually have an understanding of whether it's a 2% increase or a 0.02% increase.

[lucid jackal]

LOLOLOL

Literally man

Sub is so easy mfers when presented 1 optimization

[plush roost]

WELL IT WAS SIMPLE UNTIL U MADE IT HARD BRO

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/i-don't-understand-stimpy-ren-%26-stimpy-i-don't-get-it-comedy-central-gif-9606109830626311046

[shrewd lantern]

”i didnt do it thats why i grey parsed”

mfw 1.5

[shrewd lantern]

just say you didnt crit

honestly more valid

[plush roost]

Nah whats gonna make or break some parses is sec tec crits surely

[hazy breach]

Like 1% for trickster, like 3% for deathstalker

But thats why its in the "optimization" section

Not the default section

[shrewd lantern]

wasnt backstab first builder in dance

also similar

and people complained

[hazy breach]

Less than that, but yes

[shadow torrent]

so guys, the stats to go for as a sub rogue are hast and crit now?

[blissful spindle]

So 1% for a vast majority of players who aren't actually playing at a high level of accuracy is going to probably end up being a DPS loss if they try to follow the optimization unsuccessfully.

☝️ Something important for people to understand when you're reading optimizations. You're not a robot, mistakes have consequence. Consider that when deciding to do them.

[faint quail]

only superchared apex'd ya? everything else send norm?

[lilac stag]

stonks 📈

[shrewd lantern]

put ds back in the enclosure

[limpid sage]

This but unironically

[lilac stag]

I’m just here to watch the world burn when it’s noticeably better

[shrewd lantern]

i mean is sectech hits independent crit rates

on each target hit

or all the same

[leaden prairie]

Wasn't it sub specific

[shrewd lantern]

do you still cancel kspree

as outlaw

[hazy breach]

It was listed under sub but that spellID is not sub specific i dont think?

Idk either way that shit is not very relevant

[leaden prairie]

I mean we know they can tune things for specific specs only

Idk didn't check spell data

[hazy breach]

Well theres no spell data to check

[shrewd lantern]

i really like how they buffed gloomblade

[hazy breach]

Since they havent pushed anything

[shrewd lantern]

really shows they know

how the spec works

!

[leaden prairie]

They haven't? To ptr?

[hazy breach]

Nop

Its only notes

[trail bison]

u dont take kspree atm

[shrewd lantern]

doesnt it trigger trickster shit

[lilac stag]

Fatebound

[trail bison]

fb ye

[lilac stag]

Gaming

[limpid sage]

It’s split

[shrewd lantern]

yeah it was talking about unseen for outlaw

fatebound fits outlaw more than assa

assa it feels they threw it on last minute

[limpid sage]

Before details got lobotomized you could see it in there

[shrewd lantern]

tbh the only reason i still got details

is to set funny names

but the name restriction wa

got killed

!

[limpid sage]

I just prefer all of it over blizzards implementation

[shrewd lantern]

It looks nicer 100%

[leaden prairie]

Hopefully it doesn't buff outlaw trickster

No one wants to play that dogass

[shrewd lantern]

trickster outlaw just feels

so awkward

compared to trickster sub

[tame terrace]

ks makes that whole shit weird

[past charm]

highkey trickster otl feels bad cause of killing spree

[tame terrace]

bane

[leaden prairie]

Mostly that trickster is so boring

It'd doesn't have builder and finisher rules

Like fateboud has

So you just sleep

Almost as braindead as sub

[peak ember]

What's the optimal crafts for entering NM/HC, for example monk ww want 1, 1 hander with spark and another 1 hander with vet crests or the worst slot alternatively. Is this the same for Sub?

[fierce wigeon]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[marble sail]

dagger + worst slot

[peak ember]

dagger with sparks same as monk?

[marble sail]

u will run crafted dagger for prog for sure

[peak ember]

ye thats what im thinking

and hope for vault

[somber cedar]

Remember that Guy said it's totally safe to craft a sword, so when he's playing sub we meme him

[shrewd lantern]

embellish pvp bracer with arcanoweave next week with pvp socket

if you’re really sweaty

[marble sail]

if u have like godlike luck u might be able to get 2 mythic daggers early, but even then dosnt mean its better

[shrewd lantern]

nah pretty sure you dont use double mythic dagger even in bis

outside of some early tier shit

[lucid jackal]

I never said thus

[marble sail]

bis lists are irrelevant for prog

[shrewd lantern]

real

i just equip bigger number

[marble sail]

2 mythic daggers could be better than a crafted one since u can replace shit slots with crafts

[shrewd lantern]

[somber cedar]

[shrewd lantern]

if im bored enough on month 4 of the tier

i might look

[marble sail]

basically

based

[shrewd lantern]

if you were the only rogue on a kill

that dropped 2

maybe you could justify running it

early on

[marble sail]

it aint worth waiting for tho

just send it

[left ledge]

jokes on him, with how tuning is going the best play would be to craft a sword (for devourer dh)

[shrewd lantern]

yeah real

[marble sail]

cant live ur whole life waiting for 1 in a million chance

u aint gonna enjoy that

[shrewd lantern]

thats basically the only scenario

and tbh crafted gear this expac is gonna be like

only use 2

[marble sail]

yeah shit

[shrewd lantern]

unless your rng is turbo ass

[analog hearth]

@lucid jackal are u holding craft until mythic tuning

[shrewd lantern]

You really lose almost nothing sending a dagger this week

[lucid jackal]

Yer

[shrewd lantern]

idk if guy is doing the sweat of pvp belt+bracers

first week

[marble sail]

nah u can minmax the shit out of it and wait for mythic

[lucid jackal]

Not required but I might

[past charm]

Guy wont craft sword now hes a traitor

[marble sail]

offhand craft

[shrewd lantern]

hes said every tier is a sub tier

the last 3 expacs

[lucid jackal]

Lowkey anti sub this tier

[tranquil blaze]

is panda currently the best race for raid due to food racial?

[marble sail]

he was wrong last tier untill ass got the blizzy treatment

[lucid jackal]

(it has been)

[shrewd lantern]

i mean he was right for prog

at the highend

if you got to dimmy after a few nerfs yeah

[marble sail]

i mean ass got nuked like 2 weeks in?

shit was so buggy

[shrewd lantern]

https://x.com/foreverguy5/status/2032627287812632973?s=46
iconic

ForeverGuy (@ForeverGuy5)

In Honor of the upcoming patch notes.

X · Mar 14, 2026, 1:18 AM

[shrewd lantern]

technically better on most bosses

just cdr bug every dimmy platform

[marble sail]

dude the cdr bug made me go actually schizo, i didnt know about the bugs for like a whole raid and was loosing my fucking mind

[mental saffron]

Does Coup gain all the benefits of Eviscerate talents

[hazy breach]

yes

[drowsy pulsar]

do we have any numbers on what effect this will have on aoe/single in total?

[marble sail]

pins

[bleak night]

i was rooting for you

[marble sail]

i was rooting for myself on that 3rd attempt

[true coral]

Regarding this, if I have max combo points but 4 stacks of Shadow Techniques, should I wait the 5th, or spend the combo points and go on with the rotation ?

[runic sinew]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[regal current]

u know why enh never gets nerfed? cos their discord is fucking DEAD and doesnt have 5 turboautists simming every single variable every single hour of the day, THEY FLY UNDER THE RADAR meanwhile our buff gets annoucned and 5 minutes later we got a full scientific paper detailing how its a 11.959185% buff with 0% margin of error u did this to yourselves.

the nerf is because of hubris.... you people were not satisfied with being a strong spec. You had to rub it in everyone's faces. You're autistic, period. HUMAN NATURE dictates that you will be jealous of your neighbour if he has more than you, so why do you RUB all those insane sims in other classes' faces? here and all over wowhead? What did you expect to happen? that shit ass warlocks would look on those numbers and be like "oh good for them"? so fucking dum

[swift tinsel]

don't wait

[deft lynx]

last time I went to the enh discard they were posting turtle gifs, it's a vibe over there

[true coral]

ty!

[frigid prawn]

Can someone recommend an addon for poisons when they are about to expire? 😄

[fallow nimbus]

Any reminder will do

[trim lake]

Clickable raid buffs by Funki is good

[austere plank]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[true citrus]

Tettles just called us BP billies

[alpine wraith]

gotta love when people use cds wrong and do shit dmg as sub anyway in dungeons

[brave moth]

If I use SecTec on a mob that dies after the first hit does my clones proc ?

[alpine wraith]

no

[odd jacinth]

https://tenor.com/view/berry-dog-dog-eating-berries-my-beloved-tomato-dog-cute-dog-gif-11346934687604772141

[dreamy furnace]

is the crafted weapon with the dot chance any good or just crap again

[alpine wraith]

very very bad

as usual

[dreamy furnace]

they always make stuff that seems cool then make it bad lol

[alpine wraith]

or well in pure st it is not super behind but you know

[elder garden]

does the ivy veins guides still tell you to use intellect gems as a rogue

[plucky turtle]

So in regards to the buff to sub is sub viable in the raid or is it just an outlaw angle ?

[hazy breach]

Where does it do that. The gem section certainly does not. Especially seeing as there havent been any intellect gems in this game for a long ass time

[flint parrot]

idk what they smokin man

[supple pawn]

How. Its literally designed to be easier

[shrewd lantern]

people will press evis instead of bp on 3t

for “prio”

[fiery fog]

it always feels like sub is doing good during m0, gets nerfed because of it and falls behind in m+

[supple pawn]

How dare you not be suboptimal rogue

[astral axle]

Must’ve meant ivy veins instead of icy

[shrewd lantern]

i will say going into big pulls

with coup sectech coup sometimes

was vile

”yep aoe nerf probs”

[alpine wraith]

even if it is easier people can still mess up

[fiery fog]

wasnt subs sustained aoe already somewhat subpar

[supple pawn]

Mental deficiency!

[gentle sonnet]

is this pure ST or AOE?

[tulip silo]

is this updated?

[hollow spear]

Where's that copy pasta from?

[obsidian dew]

Mages

[stoic flower]

so we're not doing the whole "5+ stacks of shadow techniques -> apex" thing, and doing this instead?

[hazy breach]

It is the same thing, but yes

[hollow spear]

Isn't that almost guaranteed with premed bug and the amount of sht we get from sectec?

[hazy breach]

Yes

Assuming you dont waste all of your sht right before dancing as trickster

[hollow spear]

https://tenor.com/view/scissor-sisters-i-dont-feel-like-dancin-jake-shears-lgbt-gay-pride-gif-16417604

[frail path]

Trying to find this list, do you have it at hand?

[hollow spear]

Okay, good to know. I'm still in the habit of being afk for a couple of seconds before dance from last season.

[rancid sierra]

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/midnight/harandar-rares-treasures-locations-tips-rewards - the top has all 4 zones you can click on to change rares/zones.

[frail path]

Awesome, thanks

[sonic raven]

Death stalker coming back?

[hazy breach]

For pure ST yes

[hollow spear]

What are the odds that it's back for st plus short burst cleave?

[supple pawn]

This reset?

[hollow spear]

(please say they're low)

[hazy breach]

Lets say you have 3 globals to burst down adds

Would you rather have Sectech with +20% damage, then an unseen blade that cleaves and a apex'd coup that cleaves

[hollow spear]

No, I'd rather have a mark that disappears randomly

[hazy breach]

Or Sectech (without +20% dmg) and then a regular BP (assuming you lined it up perfectly so you didnt have DN up here)

[plush roost]

ye ds way behind in aoe

just ST option

FOR NOW

[hollow spear]

It would have to be quite noticeably ahead to make it work the switch for st

At least for me

[hazy breach]

Idk these high key pusher priority damage fiends might come crawling back to deathstalker later on

For the NUKE STRIKE

[flint parrot]

ye it's up to date

[plush roost]

Eh they'll be playing NUKE MUTILATE

[flint parrot]

from ulria sheet i guess

[tulip silo]

law tier, zac was right

[flint parrot]

all rogue specs are meh atm

[hazy breach]

I mean that one is definitely not updated

And even if it were

[hollow spear]

Law tier my ass

[hazy breach]

[hollow spear]

What ilvl are the rare drops? For some reason it shows me 80 ilvl.

[rancid sierra]

They are all 220

can upgrade to 237.

[hollow spear]

So adventurer tier

[rancid sierra]

yes

[hollow spear]

Crafted one adventurer ring

Might craft another one

[hazy breach]

Fwiw it does seem like both Deathstalker specs have similar prio, but assa seems to be doing AoE damage at the same time

While Sub is not

[hollow spear]

I've only heard that assa feelsbad in m+

[inland glacier]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hollow spear]

Just the rotation

[regal current]

mage server

[supple pawn]

• As Deathstalker with 4 or less targets: Try to ensure that you always have :ancientarts: active for your Darkest Night buffed :Eviscerate:s during :ShadowDance:. (This can mean using :ShadowStrike: at full CP to activate it)

At 4 targets, would you use Shuriken Storm instead of Shadowstrike?

[hazy breach]

No

I should probably clarify that

[supple pawn]

Alright

[hazy breach]

But idk its already sounding way more complex than it is

[supple pawn]

No yeah that's fair

[hazy breach]

Just make sure Darkest Night is apex'd

But in big aoe

Eviscerate not great

[supple pawn]

You did specify shadowstrike

[raven sail]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[supple pawn]

I was just curious because as I understand

Backstab 1 target
Shuriken storm 2+ targets (no dance)
Shadowstrike 2 targets
Shuriken Storm 3+ targets (dance)

[harsh gale]

So we're all going outlaw for m+ right

[hazy breach]

Can probably strike at 3 now too if you want, but it doesnt matter much

After buffs

[supple pawn]

And then Black Powder is at 3 targets? (I assume the old eviscerate apex optimisation is no more since I've been told to ignore it)

[hazy breach]

Still 2 when you have specced into Potent Powder

[supple pawn]

:nodnod:

[harsh gale]

What is everyone simming ST. I'm hard stuck at 44k

Didn't get spooned during world tours

[valid tartan]

53

[supple pawn]

86

[potent heath]

99

[wild jay]

i owe 3k dps 😄

[hard trellis]

close discord for buffs

[tulip silo]

does it work?

[stuck lance]

what spread sheet are people using in links to show dps by spec?

[lyric ridge]

Is that too much? (no buffs)

[alpine wraith]

it is fine

[swift merlin]

what are we crafting?

[stone vessel]

sword

[swift merlin]

okay with darkmoon sigil hhunt?

[stuck lance]

dont craft a sqord for sub

[warped fox]

🤪

[stuck lance]

also anything with any dmg amp or adds won't sub still be better

[stone vessel]

the meme is people saying they'll swap to outlaw

[coarse hound]

He's being sarcastic and saying reroll

[stuck lance]

does mage know that idk him lol

[ivory garnet]

Is still sub the sepc to go in m+ ?

[untold fjord]

damn good yeah

go ahead

[hushed roost]

Anybody got a recommendation for a more customizable consume tracker than the one in the pins?

[silent ruin]

Will pi work to amplify deepening shadows

[hazy breach]

No

[sweet moss]

prolly gonna be mid

[hazy breach]

As its explicitly only haste from stats

[silent ruin]

Alright ty

[hazy breach]

PI is as atrocious as ever

[warm marlin]

@plush roost split alt just hit the absolute nuts https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kF2JVTzSg3qAa9piW3ae5m

wadahelly

[plush roost]

Wow

Not the flask double hunt sigil insane ring rng

Enjoy r1 parse day 1

[warm marlin]

dont think i have time to play this guy m+ week so im full enchanted and sent crests already

[neat whale]

is sub gonna be the raid spec or will it be outlaw due to sims?

[warm marlin]

hes sticking with this gear for the next month

[tribal herald]

is the dagger we need to craft crit + mastery?

[gilded ferry]

You are all focusing on the wrong thing

Meanwhile the Common enemy is getting a 20% buff

[strange chasm]

wut dah helly

dude is 10k up on me sim

and only 5 ilvls

[hazy breach]

Skill issue

[warm marlin]

enchants and stuff are pretty good to be clear

[balmy gate]

Are we ok for m+ ? I have guild dont pug but dont wanna be the one who get carried.

[warm marlin]

hard to say exactly after aoe nerf but rn its sleeper op imo

[faint quail]

that other dagger 246 one

[strange chasm]

damn its that much of a diff hey

[faint quail]

what the helly

[warm marlin]

idk simmed as best craft

hunt is good

[shrewd lantern]

double hunt not arcano?

[warm marlin]

was also my only remaining 237 piece

[faint quail]

ahh got u

[warm marlin]

pretty sure only reason bis profile doesnt play double hunt is you have to int mainhand ilvl

[shrewd lantern]

im stuck with 237 ring and gloves

[true coral]

I'm 242 and he 10k up on me as well

[strange chasm]

the weapon enchants are pre big for dps

[stuck lance]

are you simming full enchants?

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah double r3 rendorei

in sim

[true coral]

Only enchant I have is on embellished dagger, I simmed my real stuff

[shrewd lantern]

are you still maghar on the bingus

[warm marlin]

swapped orc 20 minutes ago

i am now disgusting green

[shrewd lantern]

go panda obvs

[warm marlin]

i think theres an argument with how weak blades is for panda

and i didnt raid test at all

but burst good idk

[modern sentinel]

go for best mog

[hazy breach]

Yeah, panda

[stuck lance]

full enchants gives like 11-13% dps

[hazy breach]

Like we were just talking about

Chubby male ofc

[vivid trail]

do you hit eviscerate on aoe like it did in last expac or do you use shuriken storm and black powder instead?

[hazy breach]

It no longer cleaves

So no

[modern sentinel]

my warr is female orc, mog sits on tight fr

[vivid trail]

ok ty for the fast reply

[swift tinsel]

after getting the mount I wanna be an Amani Sunfeather rogue

[warm marlin]

i mean its the same model as my old maghar but i liked the maghar hairstyle better and preferred brown to green

unlucky

[swift tinsel]

idk why but I think they fuckin rule

[warm marlin]

have 40 gleeful glamours to human in bags anyway

[modern sentinel]

I still want ogres as race

we shrek

[shrewd lantern]

yeah the number of times

i login just to gleeful glam to human

and log

[silent ruin]

is find weakness untrackable with cdm ?

[hazy breach]

Yes

But its also completely irrelevant to track

[ivory obsidian]

Isn’t it like always up

[silent ruin]

why ? with high enough crit, if you cant stand behind target, won't shuriken storm be better proc chance for fw ?

[alpine wraith]

just be always human

you have FW most of the time anyway

[ivory obsidian]

Nelf or human

[alpine wraith]

dance uptime is that high

[echo lynx]

[hazy breach]

For the 2 seconds inbetween your dances where you wont be using any finishers you can have your auto attacks do more damage if you storm yes

[modern sentinel]

isnt that outlaw sim with mostly Jackpot active?

[silent ruin]

also, side question, swapping to DS has a bug similar to fatebound earlier where cold blood wouldn't work, now the mark doesn't get applied right ?

[hidden bough]

whhat item should i craft with my sparks? <--- new

[hazy breach]

Fwiw the only things you need to actually track is Deathstalkers Mark/Darkest Night, Coup, Shadow Techniques and Ancient Arts

Anything else is just for funsies irrelevant stuff

(and obviously Dance+Sectech+Blades)

[stuck lance]

that image seems wrong

[silent ruin]

i mean, the mark is bugged, shadowstrike doesn't apply mark

[hazy breach]

Yeah that happens sometimes

The game thinks you have a mark applied already

Relogg and/or wait a minute

[silent ruin]

i see, ok ty ty

[stuck lance]

cause it was 95k earlier then post change showing 96k but that said it was 6% something is off

[flint parrot]

Anyone heard of this? Some people say Focusing Iris now is broken

[stuck lance]

oh that one has been updated again lol

[silent ruin]

why do you need to track ancient arts ? doesn't it give a black ambush like amination ?

[hazy breach]

It does, you can use those

Lots of people (and addons) disable those by default

[modern sentinel]

mm hunters like this rn also

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1235117839686438964/1482376830144217168/image.png?ex=69b6ba81&is=69b56901&hm=e8a7124dc2aecaf03e9bbe0d711457f0e4ac398aea69c6e0a6b3f9fc69723d6f&

[vast zinc]

seems odd 6% buff sims were at 97k would it not be higher than 99k

[stuck lance]

they wont even link the sheet when i ask just keep screen shotting

[crystal atlas]

It worth doing double on use?

[radiant swift]

anzone have that new sim list by specs?

[alpine wraith]

double haste on use could be good in some situations but not for overall dps

[weak vector]

Whats the source for this? And is there a full version that isnt missing classes?

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[tribal herald]

this is no longer needed right?

[short radish]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[tribal herald]

what about put shadow blades with shadow dance and secret technique?

[olive citrus]

hi friends! do we have a "bis" list for m0 weeks? not sure which trinkets are the best for us

[regal current]

sim it

sim it good

[tulip light]

get any decent on use + haste passive from windspire. you want haste on use from raid + passive from one boss raid long term as of now

also i think u mean m+ since m0 is useless anyways

[unkempt copper]

That's not going to be stuck in my head all day or anything....

[acoustic lodge]

sub is so back

[weak vector]

https://klipy.com/gifs/ryan-gosling-ew-1

[high birch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[dreamy furnace]

is it worth to just craft a weapon rn if its our bis embellishment late game anyways?

[echo lynx]

https://tenor.com/view/cummins-gif-12535975135255283466

[hollow python]

are there any actual performance downsides of macroing/combining coup/black powder? was considering leaving them separate so say in m+ the pull is still being gathered you can still black powder and hold a few seconds till the pull's together but... not really sure if it would be more worth to get more fazed/nimble procs early or however that works

[bleak night]

not having it macroed would also prevent stuff like you using coup at the end of a pull with two basically dead mobs

[wet anvil]

we press BP on 2+ targets right, and if its a 2 target boss fight do we also press bp or evis

[hazy breach]

In dummy situations there is no loss to have it macroed, but in practice there are situations where its not ideal.

Like bel just mentioned

[bleak night]

now share

[bleak night]

[tribal blade]

you poor

i spit on you

huach ptoo

[bleak night]

get reported bucko

shadows are coming for you

[tribal blade]

oh NO

waitwaitwaitwait

[bleak night]

[haughty mural]

[still gazelle]

Coup de grace can'tr be cancelled by doing BP right?

[tribal blade]

i'm innocent

[tribal blade]

nah can't be

[still gazelle]

Any meaningful reason to track Shadow Technique stacks on my UI outside of that one pin? Don't they just kind of happen?

[worldly root]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/9L9nu2vSeeFwqXGYJaTBkf

[tribal blade]

yes i think it's always worth tracking even if we don't play around the apex

[hazy breach]

You can just react to the refunds if you prefer

[still gazelle]

Wish there was a way to make that Coup POP a little more when it hits 4.

[hazy breach]

But to me knowing it in advance just feels better

Our auras are too strong im afraid

[still gazelle]

How do you play around Shadow Technique other than just using up the CP's it gives?

[tribal herald]

So is outlaw a way better for raid?

[bleak night]

yes

outlaw tier confirmed

[shrewd lantern]

not like outlaw isnt the highest simmer

[short radish]

100% outlaw tier

[shrewd lantern]

every tier

[bleak night]

i genuinely hope it does somehow end up an outlaw tier

bc of how funny it would be

[short radish]

tbh i think there's a chance

of outlaw being decent on a lot of the bosses

with how shit sub cleave is

and it doesnt look like there's much lost uptime

theres like one or two bosses where you gotta jump out to drop a circle

and thats it

[bleak night]

i think assa just gets buffed next tuning and is the meta

[strange chasm]

Double outlaw tier

[honest void]

the apex for one

[honest void]

worse case u prep ur problems

[still gazelle]

I thought that the Apex and playing around it was only during lust really?

For me, the Apex just seems to happen and I get CP's.

[fleet wharf]

it's supposedly .2%, so prolly not worth bothering for

[bleak night]

they have updated the rules

pray they do not update them again

[fleet wharf]

oh good point

[still gazelle]

Maybe I've misread. How do we play around the Apex? It just feels more or less passive to me.

[bleak night]

#subtlety-faq op

[fleet wharf]

basically, instead of sending more finishers, you try to get more damage by proccing apex 3 more, so instead of double finishing, you send ss if it would proc apex 3

[honest void]

a god awful optimization so u can live without doing it

[fleet wharf]

you'd need to watch the sht because it needs to be 5+ to proc apex3

[honest void]

(another W for Trick)

[fleet wharf]

you can have fun dealing with unmoveable mark

[still gazelle]

Why Shadowstrike and not shuriken storm? Or Storm for AOE and ShadowStrike for ST?

[eager torrent]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[honest void]

u mean for the Apex thing?

[still gazelle]

Yes.

[clear scroll]

what's the best way of tracking your apex 3 buff?

[long marlin]

does anyone have any idea about the crucible of erratic energies after shindig confirmed it works outside of voidstorm. Hes stated that the sims dont work for it. Are we saying this is bis going into raid as its not simmable?

[pale rock]

I track mine using the basic cooldown manager along with the points stored from SHT

[honest void]

tbh idk.

i just follow what i'm told like a good soldier

[still gazelle]

Yeah, do you use ShadowStrike at all target counts and not Shuriken Storm to activate it?

[fleet wharf]

both activate it, but sstrike was more damage which is why it was recommended for the target count

wait for more TC sims for optimization, kind of hard to say what we're supposed to do rn

[clear scroll]

ive never messed with the basic cd manager before

[honest void]

for like a 1% optimization (atm) u can ignore it and still be fine

[still gazelle]

Also, what if we're at 3 stacks of Shadow Technique during Shadow Dance, do we still wait until we have Apex 3 to finish with BP in AOE?

[pale rock]

Yeah, I really dont pay attention to the SHT Apex talent, tried dpsing while observing it, little to no difference

[honest void]

my money is on not even

unless the robot decides to later tell me otherwise

if ur not used to the optimization ur likely ending up going to lose more than what ur gaining hyperfocusing on it

tbh Skip was right, this unc gaming is lowkey nice

[exotic gorge]

what other than evis applys slice n dice

[still gazelle]

Is there a way I'm supposed to get mroe supercharged CP's?

[exotic gorge]

new to sub

[swift tinsel]

slice and dice

[still gazelle]

I only see one when I Hit Shadow dance

[exotic gorge]

oh shadow dance applies it

[swift tinsel]

do you have 2 points into supercharger

[still gazelle]

Ohhh, does my SDance/SecTec macro just eat it up before I see it?

[swift tinsel]

yes

[exotic gorge]

nvm you talking about something else

what else auto applies snd other than evis

[swift tinsel]

nothing

[still gazelle]

Then how do I get non sectec super charged finishers?

[swift tinsel]

either evisc/coup or casting slice and dice itself will give you slice and dice

[exotic gorge]

ahh i c coup

[swift tinsel]

since coup is techincally evisc

[exotic gorge]

so gains left on the table if you dont evi first pack in M+

[swift tinsel]

its nearly impossible not to coup once in an entire pack

[exotic gorge]

yeah but like

[swift tinsel]

unless it literally dies instantly

[exotic gorge]

i dont have snd immediately

[swift tinsel]

I mean you can

while tank gathers you can storm-> evisc

[exotic gorge]

rekon its not much of a dps loss

yeah exactly what i am thinking

[swift tinsel]

its kinda w/e

[exotic gorge]

hmm

[swift tinsel]

you'll be drowning in sht stacks bc storm grants so many cp

[exotic gorge]

alright, thank you

[swift tinsel]

so you're not eating through like you would with backstab/strike

[exotic gorge]

yeah i just wanna do cds with 1 x evis while tank is mobbing and then go into SS and BP

only on the first mob of the dungeon

[still gazelle]

How are people getting supercharged non secret technique finishers if SecTec immediately eats it up on Sdance?

After I use my Sdance Sectec macro I see one though?

[exotic gorge]

oh thats new..

so during shadow blades

do you hold apex for the 2nd shadow dance/evis/bp

because we send shadow dance +SEtec

[still gazelle]

Do you want to use your second Sdance during Sblades even without SecTec?

[honest void]

it consumes one per finisher

it why it says finisher and not finishers

u get 2 but first is spent by sectec

[still gazelle]

Oh, so I don't see the first one and then I see the second one for my next finisher. That's super easy to optimize then to make sure it has apex 3 with it.

What about my Sblades question? I thought we only used dance with SecTec.

[leaden prairie]

ramlu

I need to know if this is a real comment

[nocturne tendon]

2 dances during blades, 3rd dance will be up for your 2nd sectech when it comes off cd

[still gazelle]

Oh okay, I didn't know that. That makes sense. Will it always line up that way?

[nocturne tendon]

the image you linked is regarding sblades further into the fight, and as of now I believe the consensus is you hold blades for ST+dance, not ST+dance for blades

[still gazelle]

Gotcha.

Sounded a bit awkward holding Dance/ST for blades.

[swift tinsel]

if you pool a little bit before 2nd blades you'll have plenty of stacks

[exotic gorge]

so its dance+ setec, then shadowstrike shadowstrike to proc apex and evi

[young harness]

So i send ST+dance if 10 seconds til blades is back up? Then wait for 2 dances be up before sblade?

[swift tinsel]

if you have enough stacks you'll proc apex on your first strike

[exotic gorge]

yup

if not, shadowstrike again

[swift tinsel]

just gotta be mindful of premed

bc they refuse to fix that bug

[exotic gorge]

which bug

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[nocturne tendon]

according to stuff on discord the past days, you hold blades for ST+dance, which is the opposite of what wowhead says, but who knows if stuff hasnt changed/will change

[arctic heart]

someone here use AyijeCDM and can give a little help? im hard stuck in a simple task and losing my mind, please

[exotic gorge]

oh apex doesnt proc when prem is up

[young harness]

Yea im just confused because sitting for 40 seconds to get 2 dances back up for sblades seems weird

[exotic gorge]

hmm apex seems to always pop for 2nd supercharger. i dont think we need to car e

[nocturne tendon]

i believe smarter people than me came to the conclusion ST+dance is not worth delaying that long under current circumstances, sim also seems to be doing that so yeah

[honest void]

in beta i'm pretty sure i could fit a 2nd sectec when i had haste

[exotic gorge]

pretty sure your 2nd dance will come back

[honest void]

but i could be dreaming

[young harness]

So i send st+dance if sblades is on cd for another 10 seconds. Then i dont send blades until i have 2 dances? Am i understanding right? Seems like a lot of downtime for the 2nd blades

[honest void]

no u can send blades even if u have one dance up

the 2nd dance just has to be up by the first one ending

[nocturne tendon]

yeah that

[young harness]

Whats the breakpoint on that? Like how do i know the 2nd dance will be ready in the window

For sblades

[honest void]

by tracking them?

[young harness]

I guess what im asking is how many seconds left on CD is it okay to sblades

[honest void]

well it varies

by haste

[tribal herald]

How good is sub for raid compared to DH? I’m thinking about switch from devourer to sub

[honest void]

dance lasts longer with haste

[young harness]

I see. Yeah i have the rotation down but this is the only part im kinda confused on

[nocturne tendon]

my understanding is if your dance is like 7.4 seconds, as long as you have 1 charge and ~7 seconds left on 2nd charge's CD, you're okay to sblade

[honest void]

like my dance atm is 10.5 sec duration

and it's 20 sec recharge

so literally I can send it with 10 secs left on 2nd charge and be fine

[nocturne tendon]

that's with first dance tho no?

[marsh bear]

i almost feel like sub became more complicated or rather just confusing with the introduction of the apex talents

[frail bone]

Your first dance is only 10.5.

[honest void]

oh yeah that talent

ok subtract 3 secs

from both i guess

[frail bone]

Unless you can somehow be out of combat for 6 secs to reset during encounter.

[honest void]

force a wipe ez

[arctic heart]

guys, using AyijeCDM, like when we use evasion or cloak, i was able to create a new windown with timer running out, but by mistake i did something wrong and if went to shit, someone by any miracle knows how to fix it?

[frail bone]

Usually vanish tactic. More so in m+ not sure about raids

[nocturne tendon]

not 100% sure on the mechanics here, but i remember someone saying vanishing during an encounter doesn't actually put you out of combat

[honest void]

well if no one else is dead u'll get back in combat yes

eventually*

and the occasional boss where it just doesn't work for some reason

oh u meant for first dance

[shrewd lantern]

well its the only real depth rn

[nocturne tendon]

my point was you can't really use vanish to proc first dance while a fight is going on yeah

[honest void]

yeah never works that way

[shrewd lantern]

because the base spec without it is uhhh...

yeah

[tribal blade]

during boss encounters you cannot drop combat with anything

[honest void]

we talking drop combat including avoiding getting killed during a wipe?

[tribal blade]

if you vanish and anyone is still left alive it won't work

it'll only work if everyone else is dead

[honest void]

it can work depending on how long before everyone else dies iirc

[tribal blade]

ngl i kinda jumped into this convo halfway through so i could be missing something haha

[honest void]

but that's like a 5 sec window

[nocturne tendon]

i should've phrased it a little better. my comment was about vanish and triggering out-of-combat stuff (first dance)

[honest void]

nah i got it at the end b4 u explained but my brain didn't catch up to my writing

[tribal blade]

you can do it in keys on trash

[nocturne tendon]

yeah that's pretty cool, would've been pog to do it on bosses too during downtime but eh

[tribal blade]

like at the end of a pull 1 mob left alive and the tank is running to the next pull you can vanish to proc TFD

[tribal blade]

yeah not possible sadly

[nocturne tendon]

kinda tried that during m0s but shit died before i'd get FD back up so felt badge

[tribal blade]

i don't think it's worth doing in M0s because of how fast shit dies

unless there's enough time

and you're not dropping a signifiant amount of uptime to proc it

[nocturne tendon]

m+ it's gonna be pretty rad in a few places for sure, last time i played sub (and retail m+) was like legion so i'm catching up on all the new tech

[tribal blade]

it's kind of something you don't really play around

it's a case by case basis

[shrewd lantern]

you just get the buff sometimes

and its better than your other talent options

[tribal blade]

like if you vanish and sit in stealth for 6 secs while the group is fighting a pull

all that dmg you gain from having TFD is negated from not being in combat doing dmg

[honest void]

if u do it when they're gathering u could potentially get away with it

[nocturne tendon]

yeah i can't imagine playing around it actively but it's nice to be aware of once i'm not thinking about much else ig

[tribal blade]

yeah if you're sacrificing like 1-2 seconds of combat uptime it's good

i'm not sure about TFD now in midnight, but in TWW it was stronger than the other options where you could just proc it a few times in a key and it was better than all the other options

maybe @tepid trellis or @hazy breach know

[onyx flame]

you don´t need to play around it, just go insta stealth when you drop out of combat, sometimes there is a delay to next pull/rp etc.

[shrewd lantern]

i mean tfd's talent competition was

weaponmaster

[nocturne tendon]

don't even need to be in stealth for it to start ticking but yeah

[shrewd lantern]

compelling choice

[tribal blade]

yeah WM is basically almost useless in aoe

[honest void]

man I wish i could take both weaponmaster and tornado for +

alas they ain't worth the points

[shrewd lantern]

idk neither are interesting

[honest void]

i like seeing more vaguely people-shaped purple clouds

well yeah there are just repeat x spell

but I'm a fan of shadow clones

[tribal blade]

i suspect we'll get a tier set some time that buffs clones or something

and then we take those talents

[shrewd lantern]

then blizz forgets

to buff the clone hits

in aura buffs

[nocturne tendon]

kinda bugged atm too no?