subtlety

[hollow spear]

No matter the content, actually

[jade pasture]

oh nice, i still think that shroud should have the speed buff on all specs so at least we would have something. i havent used shroud for its intended use since BFA

[tribal blade]

rogue's utility situation is so bad when i brought it up after the arms warr on my team was dooming over their utility. being nerfed he had to concede rogue has it much worse

[hollow spear]

Buff: doom about rogue utility
Nerf: doom about damage and rogue utility

[short radish]

don't worry they haven't intended for shroud to be used since bfa

[fleet wharf]

it's working really well, cuz the goal is to frustrate rogue players with a shitty ability

[jade pasture]

i lied i used it in non mythic+ scenarios to skip everything we could

[fleet wharf]

it seems like it should do something, you press it, and every mob still sees you and your party

[gleaming geyser]

Why is it every single xpac sub rogue looks good for the beta or first week then they nerf it immediately?? Why cant we ever have fun? :S

[short radish]

someone unironically brought up rogue utility as "cheap shot, kidney, kick and distract"

[hollow spear]

I used shroud to speed up the raid after a wipe

[tribal blade]

LOL

[short radish]

yes they mentioned distract

[jade pasture]

now thats what i call utility

[tribal blade]

distract is good yes, in very niche situations

super niche

in keys

in raid completely useless

[jade pasture]

it used to not be so niche when we could distract bosses so pulls could go cleaner

but who gives a shit about that

[hollow spear]

I'll out myself and admit that I don't have distract bound and click it

[short radish]

true i forgot when we could distract bosses

[tribal blade]

haha damn

[short radish]

good times

[fleet wharf]

mine is on a super niche button. I pressed it all of 3 times in the past year

[short radish]

mines alt+3

[jade pasture]

its still good to use to distract people off ledges

[fleet wharf]

shift+mb5 or something for me

[hollow spear]

Need all my buttons for dance macros

[short radish]

i press it occasionally when shroud skipping, or needing to stop a patrol

[fleet wharf]

it's either 4 or 5

[final hound]

am i supposed to spam SS>blackpowder during Dance in aoe?
for trickster

[tribal blade]

the big distract plays in keys is when you have stuff patting into the pull you're doing and if those mobs joined the pull it would become an impossible situation

[jade pasture]

my tank gets mad when i stop a patrol most the time

[tribal blade]

or skipping stuff

[hollow spear]

My binds: 2 rotation buttons, 20 dance macros

[indigo aspen]

Is the last tuning a nerf or a buff on sub?

[short radish]

same

[short radish]

[gleaming geyser]

Why would u need so many dance macros lol just have one button for dance

[hoary dawn]

bring back shuriken combo

[indigo aspen]

Dont work on mobile discord and im on mobile rn

[short radish]

fuck man we're still paying for the sins of shuriken combo

[tribal blade]

the best one is using the shroud>distract tech to sneak past truesight mobs

and then you distract them facing the group

and you wipe

[short radish]

Gratz you baited me into screenshotting it

[hollow spear]

With human "lag" you risk losing a gcd in dance

[gleaming geyser]

Ah I dont have that, I press two buttons at same time

[hollow spear]

You do

Trust me

[gleaming geyser]

Nope

[short radish]

with new extended duration sdance you have much higher risk

[hollow spear]

Ok then

[jade pasture]

i talk shit about rogues shroud never being used with my group all the time, we do have good interrupts for M+ at least but yeah raid is useless

[gleaming geyser]

I have one with shadow blades and thats enough, the rest I'm useto doing it myself played sub for 5+ years now 🙂

[hollow spear]

Good luck with your 0 ms delay

[indigo aspen]

Thanks

[short radish]

better gaming chair

[tame notch]

Trust Colo he is right u want to use Marcos for dance

[short radish]

Polo

[hollow spear]

True, my gaming chair is kinda oldge now

[jade pasture]

get an office chair

[short radish]

i got a herman miller

[jade pasture]

gaming chairs sucks

[short radish]

no input lag anymore 😎

[jade pasture]

yeah i got a herman miller back in 2020

game changer

[short radish]

my lumbar feels so supported

[stiff stirrup]

Were people expecting the sub aoe nerfs? Haven’t really played but all I heard was sub was already weak

[burnt loom]

Its okay everyone will be outlaw, no need for dance macros

[short radish]

yes

it is tradition for sub to outperform due to its nature of burst damage in week -1

[gleaming geyser]

Sub was doing good, such a shame, we get another 1 week or beta of feeling ok, then nerfd immediately... D: usual shit

[short radish]

and then get nerf'd accordingly

[jade pasture]

i was expecting outlaw buffs/assass buffs and some sub aoe slight nerfs

[dry plank]

Cloak don’t work on stuff ams works and it applies to party members why would cloak be op 🙂

[stiff stirrup]

And then be mid for the rest of the season/expansion…

[gleaming geyser]

If we get any other balance changes for the rest of xpac I'll be shocked

Will be distract duration increased by 3 seconds

[short radish]

We got nerfed in week-1 of undermine tier, and ended up at the bottom of meters (below pres) by week 5 or 6

The reason why we were so strong was that we had our BiS Trinket from day 1 (transmitter)

[stiff stirrup]

This is why we need to not play sub in beta/ptr. can’t nerf since blizz doesn’t play rogue

[fleet wharf]

it's ok, we got a 5% aura buff 12 weeks into the tier to make up for it

[gleaming geyser]

Hahaha

[short radish]

hey don't forget the single day that it was accidently 10% and pushed us up to be upper middle of the pack for a brief moment

[fleet wharf]

only after we fell below aug in meters too btw lmao

trueee

[short radish]

man we were eating well that day

[gleaming geyser]

Literally below aug

[dry plank]

That nerf hilarious

[gleaming geyser]

Hahaha

[lean bone]

could you please dm me the link with these sims?

[tribal blade]

don't forget the best part of being at the bottom and ignored 3 tuning passes in a row till we were dead last 😉

[short radish]

woooo sub rogue

but don't worry

[short radish]

it's been a sub tier every tier for the last 3 expansions

[iron obsidian]

yeah but guys

we arent mage/dks/warlocks

its that simple

[tribal blade]

i'm annoyed but i'm still gonna play sub

[iron obsidian]

same

i want my sin tier man

[fleet wharf]

you whippersnappers we used to be cool and popular

[jade pasture]

we throw rocks to disract and get mid tier dps

[fleet wharf]

way back in classic and tbc

[iron obsidian]

i remember that when we build pure single target we were the best class in the game

[stoic carbon]

is there a site where i can see what different speccs sim in comparison to each other? like all classes

[iron obsidian]

simulationcraft

[fleet wharf]

also before blizz was really good at balancing things, but fair enough

[iron obsidian]

thats also true

[gleaming geyser]

Blizz was once good at balancing? ;o

[fleet wharf]

lot better now than they were for classic

[gleaming geyser]

They are good now?!!

[hazy breach]

For raid yes

[fleet wharf]

yea, the gap between top and bottom is much smaller

and most specs are actually viable for most content

can't say that about early wow

[shadow snow]

Blizzard is better at balancing than they were years before

[short radish]

interesting to see that not much has changed other than hunter and paladin

this comic is like 15 years old as well

[hollow spear]

The secret is to be a rwf raider and not worry about where you're at five weeks into the patch

I need to work on that

[gleaming geyser]

I suppose there literally wasn't any balance in classic, all warriors/rogues/mages etc, but surely the game was better balanced before this? Where they seemingly do random changes to test the water and see if it helps? Without thinking about the specs playstyle etc?

[fleet wharf]

works for all 30 of them I'm sure

actually, make that 100 since there are 3 teams

[short radish]

ignorance is bliss. we have way more information now to tell how strong a class/spec is vs the olden days

[hollow spear]

Is there a guide? Maybe pins?

[gleaming geyser]

True, maybe this stuff wouldn't even be noticiable if we didnt' know thet ins and outs so much

[hollow spear]

Back then, without meters: god damn it, I'm pumping so hard

[fleet wharf]

now: same shit, but you see the green parse at the end

[hollow spear]

(you weren't)

[lyric violet]

Hi ppl, how is your feeling about SimC? Can i start to sim or it need some kind of update before?

[hollow spear]

I've downloaded a chrome addin that changes all my parses to a 99

So I cannot be depressed

[supple pawn]

link?

[exotic steeple]

So sub still at where it was kinda right

[small mantle]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[short radish]

i too would like a link

[hollow spear]

Maybe we're actually a tad stronger in raid now. Not if what Eleem suspects is true though (the buffs not working on shadow damage)

[short radish]

theres potentially some cursed DS cooking happening

[jade pasture]

is this the same place where i can download ram

[fleet wharf]

they would surely not make such a mistake

[paper siren]

Are nerfs incoming to BP that bad?

[hazy bough]

About a 15% nerf for big AoE situations.

[paper siren]

Frick

but thats

ok

[mental saffron]

We get a catalyst charge on the 17th yeah?

[calm cloud]

Any new discovery while I was asleep?

[short radish]

no

[hollow spear]

Pls dont

[short radish]

[hollow spear]

We need a surgical strike on our kitchen

[short radish]

im not the one cooking it, i just want you to be prepared for when it finally comes out of the oven

[hollow spear]

I need you to go to the kitchen and take the pots and pans away from Eleem and fuu

[short radish]

[hollow spear]

They're too quiet rn

Has me worried now that you mention it

"Yes, Mr. Raid Leader. I know I was supposed to hard swap to the adds, but I lost my mark on the way."

[keen dome]

"Well, I swapped to the adds. My main hero talent mechanic didn't want too"

[hollow spear]

It's like an extra stupid pet AI

[eager yoke]

what is the optimal scenario with using builders even at full CP because of ancient arts apex talent?

[short radish]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only during lust.

[vale pine]

Good morning lovely people

[short radish]

hello fuu

[torn tide]

goodmorning fuu

[eager yoke]

good afternoon

[vale pine]

its 12 am, i guess its not morning anymore ^^

[short radish]

its morning somewhere (not here though)

[hollow spear]

It's only a good morning if you haven't cooked up some cursed DS shit

Hello fuu

[open depot]

Such an icon

Good morning friendo

[eager yoke]

ok sorry just first season playing sub do not mind me asking more please.

so in bloodlust only, when shadow dance is active, and i have 5+ stacks of shadow techniques, but i dont get the apex talent proc, i use shadowstrike even at full CP to fish for that ancient arts proc? and then when i get the proc then i use a finisher and get CP refunded?

[vale pine]

Just looked at the tuning changes

[short radish]

pretty sure the only finisher this applies to is sectech

[vale pine]

https://giphy.com/gifs/FireMountainProductions-the-treacle-people-OlYEKypnEqv59zA1sQ

[short radish]

yeah pretty much

undermine treatment all over again

[vale pine]

At least they did not nerf secret

[eager yoke]

right. so same scenario in AoE if first pack of dungeon maybe that requires bloodlust?

[vale pine]

but it seems weird to me to nerf aoe

which wasn't even that outstanding

[short radish]

after 3 target it's also not worth doing

[vale pine]

i assume its because of the tier 2p

which increases aoe ^^

[short radish]

don't you get it? we blow up packs in m0 and it dies in 10 seconds sub is really really strong

ignore anything happening in m+ when packs dont last a shadow dance duration

[olive canyon]

it also may just be that its easier to get more out of sub aoe that some other classes so data showed sub rogues overperforming

[vale pine]

i don't think blizz is stupid enough to base tuning on m0 data

[marble sail]

ye thats just copium from the community surely

[short radish]

probably not, but this is my misinformation conspiracy theory im believing in

and spreading

[marble sail]

its mostly a aoe nerf because of the 2pc is like 15% gain on superchargers

[short radish]

https://tenor.com/view/misinformation-spreading-spreading-misinformation-online-gif-4543841945782036495

[open depot]

You called?

[short radish]

[woven ruin]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hollow spear]

I don't even know what our 2pc does

[short radish]

same

[hollow spear]

Time to look it up

[marble sail]

1.5% per combo point

[covert anchor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1279178304053842082/91xxgj.gif

[woven ruin]

do we care about tracking ancient arts

[marble sail]

ur screen already does it 🐐

[vale pine]

a bit

[woven ruin]

we talking .2%?

[short radish]

also just nice to track so you know when youre getting a refund

[hollow spear]

For a .2% increase I will probably not even bother to play around it

[craggy fractal]

Yeah but... It does it automatically with the two black parenthesis in the middle of your screen right

[echo dirge]

There was a spreadsheet for bis gear sims for all rogue specs, i can't find it again. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

[short radish]

!fuu

[marble sail]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sweet moss]

Are we crafting anything yet guys?

[haughty mural]

The instant burst aoe was really good i‘d argue

[marble sail]

if ur gonna play sub u can craft dagger

[hollow spear]

Can craft dagger

[hollow spear]

it still is, they didn't touch sectec

[sweet moss]

okay ty lads

would dagger work if i wanna swap assa later on

[haughty mural]

Yea so a bit of powder nerf is kinda fine

[haughty mural]

Thank god

[hollow spear]

Issue is that after the "instant burst", we kinda run out of steam eventually 😄

[vale pine]

think thats how burst specs are supposed to work, no?

[marble sail]

uhh yeah

[vale pine]

if a burst spec is not allowed to "burst"

and sustained aoe is not that strong

[sweet moss]

and can recraft to higher ilvl later on right

[vale pine]

our sustained is stronger now tho because of talents and tier set next week

[sweet moss]

forgot how ts works

[cursive vapor]

it is, but not 'that-strong' lol

1/2 burst spec

[haughty mural]

Also im glad they can now freely tune single target for sub with reworked nimble

[supple pawn]

do yall aprove

[eager yoke]

dagger with which embellishment is to craft?

[marble sail]

wowhead

[haughty mural]

@vale pine not disagreeing with you there - but as you said set will also increase aoe

[echo dirge]

Fuus sheet hasn't been updated for the new change has it?

[marble sail]

no

[marble sail]

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/rogue/subtlety/bis-gear

[vale pine]

i just woke up, so 100% no ^^

[short radish]

smh fuu sleeping on the job

[eager yoke]

aight yeah just checking thanks. because wowhead for dev dh said to craft a ring and then 2 days ago it changed to something else

[marble sail]

nice lie, u were awake last night aswell slacker

[vale pine]

the change dropped at 2 am my time

[smoky gorge]

Jokes on you its based of hero

[marble sail]

same

2 am is peak pushweek

[brisk onyx]

Hihi

[sweet moss]

we using tihs macro to fully replace dance keybind or want both? /cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

[old wave]

it's based of Abundance

[vale pine]

well i didn't wake up yet, but i am at my pc just since 20 minutes

[golden totem]

What I'm guessing from my personal short and non beta experience is that every spec that performed better in aoe pretty much got nerfed harder? Ofc not sure about this one but I'm glad we got st buff coming in raid prog

[vale pine]

the problem with the change is, i could only do estimates, we would need to wait for an implementation

[brisk reef]

so, ummm, did we get a nerf in aoe to just get buffed in st?

[honest wedge]

Any1 have sim data post tuning? Sorry if answered before

[vale pine]

i plaed all dungeons in 6-10 key range on beta with a guild group and subtlety wasn't that outstanding

but i don't know what data blizz goes by

also changes happened

[torn tide]

what talents?

[vale pine]

i played trickster ^^

[golden totem]

Yeah im wondering if they're using their shitty dmg meter xd

[honest wedge]

Is there any other option? Since details is just a skin now

[vale pine]

i think the chanegs try to achive 2 things

• reduce subtleties overall aoe strength

• close the gap between desthstalker/trickster in aoe

[brisk onyx]

every addon with the same functionality works in this way.

[honest wedge]

Yes, that’s my point lol

[jade urchin]

are we considering deathstalker again?

i really enjoyed my weeks of trickster in all content

[short radish]

we all do

[haughty mural]

In raid sub should be pretty good now for prog

[craggy fractal]

I hope not

[haughty mural]

That’s the most important part

[fallow bramble]

deathstalker + apex feels just stupid

[short radish]

deathstalker feels just stupid

[vale pine]

i don't think so

[sweet moss]

are most u guys already crafting dagger? or waitign

[fallow bramble]

wait

[keen dome]

I crafted mine, yes

[fleet wharf]

i crafted after seeing the notes

[short radish]

I crafted mine, yes

[sweet moss]

okok

ty lads <<3

[short radish]

because im planning on playing sub

[fleet wharf]

but we were all leaning sub anyway

[sweet moss]

yeah

[vale pine]

i am surprised they nerfed nimble

tbh

[sweet moss]

same honestly

[shy scarab]

They gutted our aoe

[short radish]

worst case scenario you are behind 1-2 weeks on crafting because you got a mythic dagger

and well gratz i guess you got a mythic dagger

[shy scarab]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fleet wharf]

still embellishments and good offhand

[shy scarab]

Is the sheet updated with the buffs @vale pine ?

[brisk onyx]

The biggest problem with DS right now is that mark disappear for unknown reasons, and then we can't remark by ss lul

[vale pine]

nope

[steady sail]

Isn't the nimble nerf just to offset some of the eviscerate buff?

[tribal blade]

i just realized the best part about the tuning

+20% to backstab

[fleet wharf]

what, going from .2 to .22?

[short radish]

as is tradition

[tribal blade]

padding the dev notes

+20% looks good

[short radish]

[modern matrix]

yoyo, is it haste,mastery for crafted dagger as tricker ? cant seee it on guides

[tribal blade]

you can do haste mast or crit haste

wait sorry crit mast

fuu's bis sim has crit+mast

also if you do crit+mast it's a bit easier to swap between sub and sin

but secondaries on daggers are quite small so it's not gonna make or break anything unless you don't have enough haste as sub

[keen dome]

Can always recraft it to other stats later

[sweet moss]

Might be a dumb question but where is vendor to grab the 259 crest item for crafts i cant find it

[short radish]

there is no vendor

[sweet moss]

so u just use 80 crests now?

[thorny wagon]

No just Spark

[sweet moss]

oh damn

[wind peak]

so uhm

[thorny wagon]

Put in max Qualitiy mats and it will be 259

[sweet moss]

dont even need crests for 259 then?

perfect ty

[fleet sluice]

So following the latest tuning, was the nerf in our aoe capability necessary? Was it considered too strong? I mean sure sub as very good burst aoe and M0 currently favours that, but with m+ coming burst aoe won't matter as much.

[wind peak]

whats the tea, is sub good bad now, wondering what we figured out now that its been a few hours

[shy scarab]

U cant get higher with adding veteran crest

[keen dome]

Sub is still good, yes.

[shy scarab]

U sure about that ?

[keen dome]

The maximum you can craft right now is 259.

[wind peak]

r we still competitive in m+

or are we cooked

[keen dome]

Sure

[short radish]

still?

[shy scarab]

But on wednesday u can add crest yea?

[short radish]

that implies we were competitive before

[thorny wagon]

But dont use Public craft. Otherwise people could "scam" you and you get a 252 or so

[keen dome]

Yes, you can add crests on a recraft to take it to Hero / Myth (although not myth next week)

[sweet moss]

yeah ill find someone in trade chat or guild yu

[tribal blade]

gonna be real if you want to be competitive in M+ it would be a reroll off rogue angle

but i'm guessing outlaw is better than sub in dungeons now

[wind peak]

yeah but fun factor mate

[tribal blade]

but who knows

[sweet moss]

@thorny wagon did u go for haste/mast or crit/mast?

on dagger

[wind peak]

ill just get 1 of my alts to be outlaw then for m+ maybe

was gonna use sparks on 1 of them for outlaw anyways

[thorny wagon]

I did one with haste/crit but only becouse i reached 700+ haste for the extra gcd inside dance with it. You can just sim yourself.

[cinder zenith]

Hey, I have a question about crafting. Should I use my veteran tokens to craft items with the Embelis this week? Or is it better to use them to upgrade all my gear?

[hidden raptor]

what's the % change in dps?

[dry plank]

Check pins

[hidden raptor]

ty

[tribal blade]

it's enough to make sub not be top tier aoe

[hidden raptor]

ehhh

[tribal blade]

not really sure why they hit sub as hard with the aoe nerfs as they did

[hidden raptor]

if i had to guess, they know what the gear scaling looks like

[short radish]

rogues aren't allowed to be meta in m+

we're still paying for the sins of shuriken combo

[tribal blade]

TRUE

[little ferry]

after recent tuning will it maybe be worth to eviscerate instead of black powder on 2 targets ?

[short radish]

come back later to find out more

[tribal blade]

nah don't think so

[dry plank]

Look at it at different angle, you could play other class m+

[keen dome]

impossible

they aren't purple

[short radish]

yeah but i enjoy playing sub rogue

[long lantern]

note to myself never miss week 1 of release, I dinged 90 2 days ago im 222 ilvl cant get into A SINGLE m0

[tribal blade]

i'm not a numbers person so i dunno, but given PP i don't think it'll be worth to evis in 2t

[short radish]

make your own group

[dry plank]

You will you need 8 10s for vault and than go play normal class

[short radish]

but also unlucky having to deal with rogue debuff

[short radish]

i don't want to play other classes (thats a lie, i frequently play my paladin alt)

[long lantern]

ye it already gives me ptsd from queue simulator this spec has in its blood

[sweet moss]

all copped bis enchant for crafted dagger too?

[keen dome]

Make your own group. Every grup has 1000,0000000 DPS applying to it. It isn't anything more than volume.

[dry plank]

Than play with details turned off 🙂

[keen dome]

it has literally nothing to do with it being a rogue applying, and everything to do with there being SO MANY dps applying

[rapid violet]

but they also tuned down the other big aoe classes's main spells as well...

[long lantern]

100000 apply except mine cuz im not tank/heal :c

[tribal blade]

this, i've carried a bunch of people on my alt rogue

tons of people start their own groups and find people to carry them

[short radish]

^

there are so many tanks and healers now as well

and you can do m0s at like 200 ilvl

[keen dome]

When I was doing M0 on reset, every time I put the group up I had like 30+ DPS within 5 seconds applying

[dry plank]

I was in group with 2 guardian druids 😉

[naive hemlock]

time to enable slow mode

[tribal blade]

nice you can start a fire rubbing their 2 brain cells togehter

[dry plank]

And they beat me in overall I was watching tv show and half dung just follow them 🙂

[tribal blade]

haha my man

hell yeah

[dry plank]

We should’ve all done that and now see 20% flat buff ahaha

[hidden raptor]

so just got done talking to my chatgpt who works at blizzard

good news, we're going to be okay

[haughty mural]

Kinda exaggerating, no?

[pulsar flame]

Hey, what are u gonna craft?

[supple pawn]

how are we performing dps wise in aoe and ST? for raid?

playing sub whether we shit or heat but just curious

[short radish]

raids not out yet

[dry plank]

We’ll see in few days

[supple pawn]

i didnt actually pay attention when we talked about this

alright ty

[hidden raptor]

i was watching some beta testing raid vids and rogue was hit or miss but that's also beta testing and from 4+ months ago

[short radish]

could have been a beta testing from 2 years ago and your statement would still be accurate

[hidden raptor]

im a rogue prodigy

thank u

[short radish]

[exotic steeple]

i feel bad for the assa rogues

[short radish]

i dont

this happens every single tier

assi gets forgot about for a bit

and is behind for like 3 weeks

then they pull ahead once anything related to burst matters

[tribal blade]

it will be on top again

[exotic steeple]

first 3 weeks are most important tho

[short radish]

they are and they also really aren't

[tribal blade]

for RWF raiders sure

or HoF

not for the majority of mythic raiders

[dry plank]

Message has smile at the end

[hidden raptor]

its only important if you tell yourself it's important king

[tribal blade]

most guilds spend months progging the raid

[short radish]

reminder that those who are getting CE in the RFWL are still the top 2% of raiders

reminder that the tier is the entire season and not the first 3 weeks

[vale pine]

nimble does not work with evis anymore

[tribal blade]

also for key pushing how your spec performs at the end of the season matters, not the start

[light finch]

whats pretty nice for rogues in general is that the best stats are not all over the place anymore, your Sub Gear is pretty good for Assa aswell.

[vale pine]

but the change is fine

[dry plank]

Or entire season

[vale pine]

because raid is what matters most

[haughty mural]

[tribal blade]

TRUE actually

[vale pine]

and even if our aoe/sustained aoe is worse now

[supple pawn]

shadowlands jumpscare in silvermoon

[vale pine]

we can bring st

[hidden raptor]

i miss her 😭

[pulsar flame]

What are u craft with spark? Dagger? @vale pine

[tribal blade]

the funniest part about key pushing is watching meta chasers swap their mains 3-4 times before they settle after the .5 patch

[vale pine]

first craft is 90% of the time a dagger

[tribal blade]

because of ongoing tuning

[short radish]

fuck i hate key doers

[hidden raptor]

and then burn out because they've pushed so many +10s

[short radish]

so much

[tribal blade]

t r u e

[short radish]

and then they mald when they dont get trinkets from raid

because they NEED it for push keys

that dont even fucking matter

holy shit

fuck doers

[tribal blade]

double that number and yes haha

[short radish]

actual sub healer scum

[exotic steeple]

i got a boomie ready for s1 too so im eating well

i can play boomie and sub

im happy

[tribal blade]

ew boomy

[keen dome]

Also for the incredibly niche weirdo group that I exist in, too.

[dreamy root]

reroll that to feral and u eating realy good

[tribal blade]

haha your pug people

[hidden raptor]

nah the MAJORITY of meta chasers end up barely mid tier io and burn out within a couple months and dont even make it to the end of the season for the real push

[exotic steeple]

nah i dont want to play a 1 gold mount

[tribal blade]

yeah i've seen it happen a bunch for sure

[hidden raptor]

but anyways, the real reason why i came to this discord - whats the best rogue race to play

[keen dome]

A lot of them are also pretty mid players who are the 'problem' in the group a lot of the time.

[keen dome]

the one you wanna play (or mechagnome)

[tribal blade]

i watched an entire group of friends of mine constantly swap their specs trying to figure out who was gonna play what for their meta omp

and i just pushed as rogue and eclipsed them

[exotic steeple]

too much pain

i just make 2/3 chars at most and pray one of them is playable

[keen dome]

When I'm doing raid progging in pugs, I can always tell who the fotm rerollers are

[hidden raptor]

i legit swapped to rogue because i fell in love with the class during tbc classic. prob most fun ive ever had in wow.

[keen dome]

And they're always fucking trash

[tribal blade]

my move is just play rogue no matter what 😉

that way my titles are worth more than meta chasers

[dry plank]

Panda

[exotic steeple]

im playing all specs as well but im like the "best" performing gets specialised and the others have like the alt treatment

idk how to explain

[tribal blade]

yeah no flame on trying to play the best thing

[supple pawn]

i wish i had titles

[hollow spear]

Reads like it's good, but sims like ass. Is it the stat budget?

[tribal blade]

it's the smart thing to do

[keen dome]

You explained it pretty well just there, honestly.

You are hedging your bets, it's pretty smart

[woven ruin]

or not implemented in isms yet

[tribal blade]

you wish you did until you actually give it a try and it breaks you haha

OR you rise above and make it

[keen dome]

I want to do title, but I would only do it via pugging.

[supple pawn]

i grinded 7k solo shuffle rounds on a class i didnt play for a sword would it still break me

[keen dome]

So I will not be doing it.

[supple pawn]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/897055819475091456/1208352075088531466/makesweet-p0b1be.gif

[hidden raptor]

7K?!?!

[exotic steeple]

though i hoped i play assa in raid and sub in m+

[drifting fable]

such a goated mog i did too

[exotic steeple]

but maybe it will be other way around next tunign lmao

[tribal blade]

ngl i have no idea if that's good or not in solo shuffle

[supple pawn]

7k across two seasons. ~4k in S3 of DF and ~3k in S4 of DF

[tribal blade]

oh you mean 7k rounds? that's crazy

[hidden raptor]

are you okay?

[supple pawn]

ye :3

[tribal blade]

if you have enough skill yeah you have the grind mindset

[supple pawn]

each solo shuffle takews 20 mins to do 6 rounds, assuming no leavers. queues back then fluctuate between 10min-1hr but were usually at least 20 minutes

[tribal blade]

title keys aren't just grinding though, you actually have to be able to perform

[hidden raptor]

i will try to get into pvp as rogue, it feels like a lot though

[tribal blade]

holy shit i'm exhausted just reading that lol

[supple pawn]

i mean for me i was honestly just a dumbass and learning how to play lmao

[keen dome]

I think about that russian sub rogue who pugs(?) his way to title and it's wild. What a powerful player.

[supple pawn]

but

i have since learnt how to actually pvp

[tribal blade]

yeah it's tough

[hidden raptor]

the hardest thing about title is getting a group. in my time i've realized that once you get close to title people just wont play with you if you make ONE mistake. like, it gets rough once you get up there.

[keen dome]

I don't have an ounce of that energy

[tribal blade]

he has that eastern block mentality haha

[supple pawn]

can you even get title on an offmeta class/comp tho

[hidden raptor]

yes 100%

[tribal blade]

yeah people are very much grass is greener mentality

and everyone is MEGA selfish

[supple pawn]

oh

[tribal blade]

like, super selfish

i've been fucked over so many times

and i've probably screwed people over too

[supple pawn]

ive just personally never cared to push for it because i figured i'd never get it

[tribal blade]

just how it goes

[supple pawn]

like im never getting r1 in pvp

[vale osprey]

I hear there's this french guy that does it sometimes on some dogshit pirate spec??

[supple pawn]

maybe blitz

definitely not in shuffle or 3s

[tribal blade]

smelly baguette having zachary?

[supple pawn]

figured it was similar story for keys

then again i also dont know how hard title is

[keen dome]

yeah he seems like he's pretty good at the whole rogue thing

[vale osprey]

!! Le pirate !!

[supple pawn]

but if you actually dont need to play meta then can't be harder than 3s r1 which is something

[lilac stag]

Arms Woyers

[tribal blade]

oh wee wee

[hollow spear]

sims like it's using it as you'd expect it to be used

[vale osprey]

You got enough haste/mast for it to want crit that much?

[rustic mountain]

Can someone tell me if Sub was nerfed?

[hollow spear]

over the haste breakpoint

[hidden raptor]

pins

[vale hull]

hello can we craft the 259 ilvl dagger rn or is it better to wait ?

[mortal skiff]

https://tenor.com/view/doja-cat-star-wars-gif-25078126

[rustic mountain]

I see, so.. I’m playing UH DK and my best friend playing Sub Rogue.. eat shit Joshua, now are we nerfed together!

[rustic mountain]

thanks

[hidden raptor]

LOL

rip joshua

[rustic mountain]

no

Fuck him, he was laughing at me for nerf

[haughty mural]

Hey man, stop bullying

[hollow spear]

really sad day for uhdk

[fair phoenix]

so, we are ok after these nerfs on dgs?

[hollow spear]

from being the top dps down to being the top dps

[hidden raptor]

DK was mad OP in S1 of TWW too

[naive hemlock]

i mean guardian nerf was expected

[haughty mural]

Udk eating good

[rustic mountain]

I hope they buff assassination..

I love that spec

[naive hemlock]

but then again moonkin was buffed because well you know

sand

[haughty mural]

Only 20% nerf but plague and epidemic buff

[upper narwhal]

I’m 99% sure one button rotation UDK was out damaging some specs even if you played them perfectly before these nerfs

[exotic steeple]

udk is the new mage bruh

always meta

2/3 dps reserved every season

[rustic mountain]

Cya guys, appreciate for help

[hidden raptor]

bro coming in here to hate watch his friend getting nerfed is wild

[rustic mountain]

not really, my friend outdps me if I slack and play one button 🙁

[rustic mountain]

He deserve.

[hidden raptor]

[broken seal]

I don’t remember, nimble flurry works with eviscerate since Midnight ? (Even if we use BP for aoe situation)

[hidden raptor]

makes unseen blade and coup cleave

[broken seal]

So when someone has unseen blade on him. If you eviscerate when he’s fazed you can also strike up the 7 others then ? Sorry I’m not really good ahah

[haughty mural]

Evis cleaved in tww with nimble, not anymore as you can read one message above yours

[broken seal]

Yes but i thought eviscerate would match with unseen blade idk

[haughty mural]

?!

[broken seal]

So the patch note nerf the sub fot M0 and buff him for raid ?

[past marlin]

elemental shaman has broken aoe and gets buffs, while subtlety has okay aoe and gets nerfs WTF?? I don't understand pls someone explain me

[frail path]

Pure single target is buffed. The caveat is that there aren't many single target bosses in the raid(s)

[upbeat garden]

Blizz is a clown company

[hidden raptor]

i genuinely think it was pre-emptive because of mastery scaling. its always broken. idk that it's going to be massively impactful once we start gearing.

[upbeat garden]

Last xpac for me

[exotic steeple]

i always say that

[hidden raptor]

see u in last titan

[steady sail]

Unseen blade gives us a stacking buff called Escalating Blade and applies Fazed on the target, on reaching 4 stacks Eviscerate becomes Coup de Grace (Eviscerate but with +5 combo points spent).
Nimble Flurry is the aoe element where autos, unseen blade procs, and Coup de Grace hit 7 additional targets to you primary.

[broken seal]

I mean, unseen blade is a passiv which is applied with BS or ST. And faze just give some additionnal damage. So I don’t understand how unseen blade can strike 7 others ennemies. Like the additionnal damage you deal can spread ? I’m so confused

[exotic steeple]

but i see myself quit when my class is op and come back when my class is dog shit

[keen dome]

Unseen Blade is a proc that does damage.

[harsh gale]

https://tenor.com/view/subway-sandwich-funny-sandiwich-funny-subway-3d-subway-sandwich-gurgerburger-animation-gif-23079640

[broken seal]

Okay so flurry will strike ennemies for the 5k dmg. The addionnal dmg of faze are not included right ?

[keen dome]

Yes, they take more damaged if they are also fazed.

[gilded wadi]

is there addon/macro for tricks nowadays?

[hollow spear]

!tricks

[wicked jolt]

Auto Tricks on tank Addon - TankMD

[gilded wadi]

ty

[wind burrow]

do we play slice and dice after changes ?

[broken seal]

Yes I know that. The question is like, if unseen blade strikes up 7 target. Faze effect exists because of unseen blade. SO if you deals additional damage with any spells of your kit. Does it works with flurry ? Because flurry works with unseen blade

[hollow spear]

Idk why you are making this so complicated

[keen dome]

no, flurry flurries 3 things.

[steady sail]

No, the only things flurry spreads is auto attacks, unseen blade, and coup de grace

[broken seal]

the more im writing the more i think im going to far btw ahah

[keen dome]

As it literally states

[wind burrow]

do we play slice and dice after changes ?

[broken seal]

Okay im ok now

[keen dome]

It's those three things that are flurried.

[broken seal]

Yes but faze is as part of unseen blade

[keen dome]

Does faze do damage

[broken seal]

Like unseed has 2 parts. The 5k dmg on proc and the additional damage for the next X second

[keen dome]

Yes.

[sour horizon]

Wtf is happening right now

[broken seal]

So flurry works with the first part only then

[keen dome]

Right, so what you are asking is: Does flurry apply Fazed to all 7 enemies hit, when it flurries Unseen Blade?

'Cos that's actually a good question I don't actually remember. Someone smarter than me might know. @tribal blade?

[swift tinsel]

No

[keen dome]

Mystery solved.

[tribal blade]

nah def not sadly

would be cool if it did

[keen dome]

So it doesn't flurry the debuff.

[tribal blade]

only the dmg

that would actually be a cool thing to add to trickster

[keen dome]

I didn't think it did but I've honestly never really thought about it 'cos it's pretty whatever.

[swift tinsel]

Only sectech will faze multiple at once

[broken seal]

Okay then. Cause if flurry worked like that, then eviscerate would « kinda works » imo

[keen dome]

No, because Evis doesn't flurry!

[swift tinsel]

Or if you get wildly lucky with storm or use the distract talent

[keen dome]

the distract talent still existing man

[torn tide]

just making sure, so nimble flurry is basically our cleave right

[swift tinsel]

It’s thematically cool but so pointless lol

[tribal blade]

i still don't understand how that talent is even any good

[keen dome]

More or less, yeah. It used to do a lot more, but now it's just Coup, Auto-attacks (Which does add up) and Unseen Blade procs.

[lilac stag]

It’s the best of the shit talents?

[hollow spear]

you need to expand your horizons!

[tribal blade]

i meant the distract one 😉

[swift tinsel]

It’s a choice node with Sectech fazing everything iirc too lol

[keen dome]

no, it's funnier

[hollow spear]

"expanding your horizons" in that context means "you need to be on crack"

[keen dome]

It's a choice with

[swift tinsel]

Oh even better lmfaooo

[keen dome]

10% crit chance on fazed guys OR

every 90s

lmao

[lilac stag]

Oh thought you were referring to the increased crit

[tribal blade]

does that essentially make you apply fazed for ~20 seconds?

to all mobs

[keen dome]

Hm

[tribal blade]

nah haha

[keen dome]

I guess if it keeps overriding it?

Let me go check

[tribal blade]

yeah if they stay in it

no idea i've literally never used it

because it sounds like horseshit

[sour horizon]

Time to hit up the dummy xD

[lilac stag]

Time to recraft dagger to crit haste.

[keen dome]

Yes, it does.

[tribal blade]

ah ok

[keen dome]

It resets the fazed every hit

[tribal blade]

so it's not as bad as i thought

[swift tinsel]

I tried it once on dummies in TWW and it was an experience

[lilac stag]

Gunslinger UI to follow

[tribal blade]

but it's still weird

[swift tinsel]

90 sec cd for that

[tribal blade]

because you're applying fazed with sectec anyways

[swift tinsel]

Ye

[keen dome]

So you do get 20s of Fazed every 90s assuming mobs remain in the cloud for 10s which let's be real

the tank is pulling it out the second you drop it

[tribal blade]

so i guess you pop it when you're not in dance and won't be in dance for a while

[sour horizon]

Make it 30sec cd and we can be droppig smoke bombs again!

[keen dome]

distract costs 30 energy, too

[hollow spear]

100% true. Just like the tanks that pulled Rik off the barrels so you couldnt cleave off the boss.

I still shiver when I think about it

[tribal blade]

it's a cool idea but they got it so wrong

[keen dome]

What's really funny is it's my auto-attacks cleaving onto all the dummies doing it

So you don't even have to use any abilities since it's gonna flurry it and spread it that way

[tribal blade]

OH only your autos apply it?

[keen dome]

I am procrastnating doing my raid research so hard right now.

[keen dome]

no no everything does.

but since autos flurry

[hollow spear]

[tribal blade]

ah ok

[keen dome]

Since they count as attacks

[hollow spear]

new tech

[sour horizon]

Just pug a normal and vibe the fights. How any study should be

[tribal blade]

they had a good idea going but didn't iterate enough on it

[hollow spear]

I watched a video explaining the fights

and forgot more about them than I knew before watching it

[keen dome]

But i'm leading the normal

[sour horizon]

RIP

[keen dome]

Also I promised three different raid guilds I'd write a document for them lmao

[hollow spear]

iGestalt is our channel's peak masochist

[keen dome]

I really like doing it though because I get to really learn the fight theory

[hallow matrix]

anyone know if these sims are updated / somewhat accurate after the recent tuning? https://simulationcraft.org/reports/MID1_Raid.html

[sour horizon]

I always forget then remember when the casts go out lol

[lilac stag]

You have to look at each spec

[tepid trellis]

some are updated

some are not

[lilac stag]

They don’t just auto populate

[rancid sierra]

When you sim, is the ability usage log based on your chracters stats or a generic character?

[tepid trellis]

your own

[keen dome]

I'm sitting here going "oh noooo, OH NOOO" as I study more of the 4th boss, the duo dragons

[sour horizon]

Sounds like ima vibe that right into the floor

[keen dome]

I think it's a relatively easy fight until you add in pug chaos

Also on normal it's 15% HP difference, not 10%. Which is nice.

And on LFR they took it out entirely thank fuck

[hollow spear]

oh yeah

[sour horizon]

Havent done lfr in years :/

[hollow spear]

LFR going to be mandatory

oof

[keen dome]

LFR is very chill most of the time these days

[sour horizon]

Need them tier sets ☹️

[rancid sierra]

Thanks - @tepid trellis So am I wondering something, in my rogues sim/ability log, it shows me using SECTEC 14 seconds apart, but my sectec CD is 19 seconds. How?

[keen dome]

Esp with the volume of competent people doing it.

[hollow spear]

yeah, will be fine

[tepid trellis]

on pull?

just link the sim

[rancid sierra]

Yes - is that a haste buff reducing it?

[tepid trellis]

very likely

[sour horizon]

Prob during hero?

[tepid trellis]

bloodlust and etc

[hallow matrix]

Yeah sorry i meant for rogue specs as you guys would know the numbers

[rancid sierra]

It shows sectec at 1 second, and then 14 seconds, but my CD is 19 so I was like ?

[sour horizon]

Prob has lust/hero haste trinket if you have and food etc

[rancid sierra]

It's odd because, It says I have a mastery flask, and my trinkets are tortured souls vial and heart of wind.

[arctic abyss]

buffs coming the 17th eh

[rancid sierra]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/48Jynusi5RVbhtFVEcWJoy is my sim

[sour horizon]

Could be a heart of wind proc

[mortal trail]

heart of wind proc + BL

[swift tinsel]

That’s an assassination sim

[rancid sierra]

fuck

wrong one, sorry

[sour horizon]

XD

[rancid sierra]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/k5twgoJhvp5HJGjYKewncj

I was sim both

[mortal trail]

heart of wind proc + BL

[rancid sierra]

If you have sectec come up during a dance, like that situation, you always send the sectec and dont worry about syncing it?

Better to get sectec on CD?

[hollow spear]

no

[mortal trail]

No

[rancid sierra]

Or just opener with haste?

[hollow spear]

sectec needs to be supercharged

[mortal trail]

Align with supercharge so align with a fresh SD

[lean rover]

Yeah just macro suntec to shadow blades

[rancid sierra]

So here in my sim (also thanks for help, new to sub) - How is this sectec supercharged?

[outer cloak]

After the changes yesterday is haste gonna be better than mastery or still around 20%

[tepid trellis]

the one in 2nd dance wont be

[lean rover]

I wanna say crit is going to play a bigger role but could be wrong

[rancid sierra]

I see, so opener with BL and stuff its not, but past that situation you always sync with SD.

[tepid trellis]

likely changes jack sht

[mortal trail]

I mean, priorities for BL isnt priorities in general

[tepid trellis]

it just in general for Shadowblades windows

you cant wait for Sectech cd

[rancid sierra]

oh its SB based, not BL.

I see.

[tepid trellis]

so you just insta send 2nd dance

and sectech when its ready

during it

[hollow spear]

2 more m0 left 😮

[barren karma]

you made no efforts, go kill rare or do worldquests lol

[rancid sierra]

Is there info somewhere to see 2PC AND 4PC tier dmg gains?

[tepid trellis]

its around 13% in total

[hollow spear]

cba killing rares and wq didnt drop rings for me so far

[rancid sierra]

@hollow spear Did you look up the rare loot list?

[barren karma]

that's impossible

[rancid sierra]

you can see who drops rings and go farm the rare

[swift tinsel]

Or not care until next week

[tepid trellis]

m0 is daily soon

[swift tinsel]

Ye

[mortal trail]

During SB + BL u can send a 2nd sectec during SB so u dont wait to align with supercharge, on SB outside BL, you cant send a 2nd sectec during SB so you wait for align 1s usually or 2 depends on ur haste/procs

[tepid trellis]

no need xD

[swift tinsel]

Hard focusing loot rn is kinda pointless

[tribal blade]

you can buy 220 boe rings from the AH

[hollow spear]

it's not even that deep, I just found it funny

[tepid trellis]

with tier + trinket you do it in every blades again

[swift tinsel]

Omission of Light goated ring tho

[tepid trellis]

very tight without the haste trinket tho

[rancid sierra]

@mortal trail o7, thank you

[mortal trail]

Well i dont have tier + trinket yet, so its my own exp playing live :/

[swift tinsel]

Can’t wait for season 2 when we won’t have 20 sec blades and there’s no good haste infusion trinket

[rancid sierra]

Is puzzle box going to be BiS?

[swift tinsel]

It’s good

[tribal blade]

that's when they add the charges to sectec you can see in the cdm smile

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-now-gif-8259067036335066552

[tribal blade]

if only

[swift tinsel]

Would solve so many headaches

[tribal blade]

i dunno if this was their entire plan with sectec

[swift tinsel]

What we have now? Def not

Or make us wait for charges lol

[tribal blade]

all i know is it feels illegal to not be able to natty do x2 sectecs per blades

[swift tinsel]

One million percent

[tribal blade]

imagine they add a lust effect to blades or something

[still gazelle]

So I was trying out subtlety last night, and is it literally possible to have all of that stuff macroed together and not be missing some big gameplay hook or playing poorly?

[arctic abyss]

sure it its #showtooltip - add single action button to bar and atleast be subpar

[still gazelle]

I saw on the guy there was a macro for combining essentially everything cooldown related

[arctic abyss]

really only 2 macros

[still gazelle]

Is there a huge downside to doing that? It seems like you always want to combine that stuff anyhow. Other situations other than holding a a potion maybe for a higher DPS boss phase where this would be a downside?

[arctic abyss]

#showtooltip
/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

[still gazelle]

There's also one that throws in a shadow blades and potion

[arctic abyss]

#showtooltip Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13

[hollow spear]

Pray for me

[arctic abyss]

and potion ect

[swift tinsel]

Bless up

[upper hemlock]

Can anyone answer me this about raidbots ??? Why does it pick items so that I lose 4% of mastery and haste for only 1% crit

[drifting zinc]

So how do we feel about the aoe nerf vs single target buff.

[arctic abyss]

meh

[wild vine]

because it results in you dealing more dmg

[still gazelle]

Sub is still probably the best rogue specialization currently though it seems like

[tepid trellis]

stats are always a balancing act

[mint swift]

Oh damn that aoe nerf is higher than I thought

[arctic abyss]

mmhmm

[upper hemlock]

3% DMG on finishers over 1% crit

[mint swift]

Tbh I relate as a shadow priest

[wild vine]

ye so

[arctic abyss]

run it with and without and see the dps difference

[wild vine]

[tepid trellis]

3% mastery not 3% more finisher dmg % increase changes with mastery % so increase gets smaller and smaller

maff

[arctic abyss]

as always rogue will be the underdog in dps categories 😛

[hollow spear]

the boomkin got it

[swift tinsel]

The universe is cruel

[torn tide]

depressing but i find rogue fun so screw it

[tough canyon]

leveled 2 rogues as sub, cuz its that fun for me(as a weaker player)

[golden birch]

After BP nerfs we still use it at 2 targets?

[tepid trellis]

Rogue is always somewhat very strong in raid

been a long time since that wasent the case

[torn tide]

feels more engaging to be melee instead of being ranged and just standing half way across the area and shooting the enemies

[drifting zinc]

We all only play sub cuz the animations of shadows popping out is to 🔥

[hollow spear]

I don't know where this "rogue is always weak" myth is coming from

[chrome palm]

Don’t think it was very strong in undermine overall, but it had its moments

[ornate lake]

Outlaw players

[tough canyon]

the SIM team? the PR department? the house of Marketing?

the office of Tall tails

[hollow spear]

Yeah, but "not very strong" is not "always weak" (not that you said that)

[lilac stag]

Assa was strongest melee on the boss that mattered most.

let me just cleave through all the walls

[iron imp]

Rogue has been okay to great for every major boss for some time now

[chrome palm]

Sub also did this

[ornate lake]

With all the aoe nerfs and st buffs, is prio back on the menu ?

[hollow spear]

wasn't even necessarily the cleave through the wall, the damage profile was just insane

[lilac stag]

The execute times were very good

Until they weren’t

[hollow spear]

our rotation does not change afaik

so our "no prio" just got nerfed a bit

unless the accursed ds cook makes an appearance

[swift tinsel]

15% strike buff means imma be forcing all kinds of apexes in aoe

[lilac stag]

You weren’t hitting goons outside of containment with sub

[swift tinsel]

Also like charrend pointed out I wonder if the nerfs come with a potent powder clone bugfix

Will be interesting to see

Bc it was fixed at different points in testing

[keen dome]

When are we gonna get a council raid fight that's all 3 rogue specs.

[swift tinsel]

That

Would be sick

Warts and all

[keen dome]

Lightbound is such a cool fight thematically

With how distinct they made them

[swift tinsel]

If their sub rogue is more purple than we are though imma flip every table

[brisk onyx]

hope so

[serene sierra]

So are we cooked for m+ guys

[keen dome]

nah

[fleet wharf]

pack it up, it's over

[keen dome]

We were never in the wok

[serene sierra]

[past marlin]

All 3 rogue specs will be bad?

[fleet wharf]

doubt it, but prolly not meta for m+

[serene sierra]

yeah we are cooked

[brisk onyx]

I clearly remember seeing potent powder clone had been fixed, but I don't know why it's gone again. I'm starting to wonder if I'm seeing things

[past marlin]

Gg Blizzard only dps class

[chrome palm]

Secret did

[serene sierra]

why did they even nerf powder i dont get it

[fleet wharf]

i mean if you want a favored dps only class, there is always mage as an option

[past marlin]

Cringe company

[lilac stag]

Everything did on assa. You did next to nothing on those if you were outside

[serene sierra]

do we have like a spreadsheet for all the sims ?

maybe also for all classes

[lilac stag]

while assa you just funneled the boss in execute and got your friends out.

[serene sierra]

i dont know if a 100k sim is good or not

[drowsy oak]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[keen dome]

Comparing all the classes together like that isn't really useful info, it's missing so much data and context.

Unless you want to know a pretty useless brutal number

[serene sierra]

i want to know a pretty useless brutal number

[tidal marsh]

There is one, but it is kept secret and constantly migrated so that the poor man who maintains it can afford his daily loaf of bread in the pre-season

I think the highest number now is like 120k for Feral or some shit

100k is decent

but like Gestalt said, it's kind of a useless number

[pastel rain]

any consensus atm how much changes impact ST damage overall?

[wild vine]

ye

in the pins

[raven maple]

I'm sure you guys talked about it yesterday but where the changes to sub a buff, Nerf, or an adjustment?

[rancid sierra]

CHECK THE PINS

[hollow spear]

If you're so sure, you could just check the pins

:^)

[raven maple]

Oops my bad

[void ocean]

pin the checks, bro

[weak vector]

I'll be honest, I expected a bigger nerf

[hollow spear]

on what grounds?

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/the-big-lebowski-coen-brothers-joel-coen-ethan-coen-jeff-bridges-gif-14873491

[hollow spear]

don't say m0 performance pls

[weak vector]

on the ground that it' rogue

[lilac stag]

people are so fucking cooked about m0 these last 2 weeks

[weak vector]

m0 isn't really a great metric

[lilac stag]

it a zero metric

[plush roost]

Sigh taps the beta sign...

It was gonna get nerfed pals

[lilac stag]

Show Hero Talents

[plush roost]

Probably again on tuesday

That was trickster 200 haste build

[lilac stag]

[keen dome]

I can't believe you are personally responsible for this, Charrend. Just too strong at the DPS game.

[tepid trellis]

play with better people cluegi

[lilac stag]

Team China prevented outlaw buffs

[tepid trellis]

[tepid trellis]

according to my math

they just suck

and im never wrong

so

[plush roost]

They call.me Charrealz because i nerfed the class mb

[fleet wharf]

you think this is just them making changes based on beta data or on m0? i'm guessing former

[plush roost]

Damn u raise a good point, thoughts on ds undersimming 6% at a minimum probably more?

[tepid trellis]

math says

[lilac stag]

It’s got nothing to do with m0

[tepid trellis]

still sucky

[plush roost]

Fug

[weak vector]

https://klipy.com/gifs/rage-smash-1

[plush roost]

Thats it im pulling out rotten pv lingering shadows gloomblade versa max

Now its nerf time

:^)

[fleet wharf]

but man, imagine being that mad that you smash your expensive setup like that

[tepid trellis]

ive broken multiple monitors in a fit of rage

[weak vector]

brings me back to the counter-strike 1.6 days

[tepid trellis]

back in my 16-20 year age

think i went through a mouse every 1-2 months

[plush roost]

One time i was so mad i sneezed and it got into my keyboard components and fried my r w g h keys

:^) you could say im incredibly toxic anger issues

[dire ravine]

Mans out here caustic spattering irl

[plush roost]

Some real atrophic poisom fr fr

[mortal skiff]

eviscerate got a 8% buff: does it mean that coup de grace receives the same dmg boost?

[faint hemlock]

!Sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tepid trellis]

iirc they work off the same thing

so id have to guess yes

but i havent actually checked the spell data for it

[mortal skiff]

"Eviscerate will be performed as coup de grace" - my guess would be that its 8% boosted aswell, but i guess we'll see :D

[short radish]

trusting the tooltips

[north schooner]

they are different spell ids, but according to eleem they increased everything except coup clone (which I don't know what it means because coup clone used to just throw an eviscerate? or did they fix that?)

[supple pawn]

Question about the apex minmax. Is eviscerate only stronger than black powder in 3 targets with the minmax?

Or, with ancient arts rather

I've had a few times in dance I run out of ancient arts procs and have to use unboosted eviscerates

[plush roost]

U may as well forget everything about the minmax for a bit this tuning will change the rules

[lilac stag]

let the tc stuff get sorted. None of it matters right now at this moment.

[supple pawn]

Alright

Wait... Is the dragons gonna be another "the ranged just do 50% more damage because they're ranged" fight 😭

[tepid trellis]

yep

[deft lynx]

Looking at updated tier lists for m+ and we're already being thrown to the bottom of the pile.. going to enjoy sitting in LFG queues for hours

[brisk onyx]

[supple pawn]

Lovely

[dire ravine]

🤞 it gets walked back a little

[supple pawn]

I do wonder how much harder caster is

[fleet wharf]

just grab some guildies

pugging sucks anyway

[supple pawn]

I've heard differing opinions of "they do more damage because it's harder for them to do damage and move" and "it's easy as shit you don't have to deal with shit"

[dire ravine]

Grab a payphone.

[supple pawn]

I don't understand the reference

[fleet wharf]

grab your paypal and offer them real $$ to run keys with you

[tepid trellis]

having played both dont really think one is harder than the other

[mortal skiff]

what guildies

[tepid trellis]

melee can be a bit more hectic where as on ranged you just preplan most of your movement for the fight

[tulip verge]

boys which spec should i chose for M+? intersted in the 3 of them so which one's gonna be the strongest with the upcoming patch?

[tepid trellis]

and then you chill

[fleet wharf]

flip a three sided dice

[supple pawn]

What raids have been more melee favoured? I feel like the most recent raids have all been ranged favoured, besides vault. Asking for general discussion/interest, not because I'm mad at casters

[lilac stag]

Frost DK

[exotic parcel]

so outlaw?

[fleet wharf]

yea, coin def has 3 sides alright

[muted raft]

jackpot

[supple pawn]

Flip a coin. Heads is sub, tails is sub and the side of the coin is outlaw

[deft lynx]

I mean.. lords of dread was a full melee comp p much but that's all I can remember

[supple pawn]

I know vault was preferential to melee

That or mages just got fucked over heavily lmao

[tepid trellis]

honestly think its been pretty lax in both ways, cant really remember the last time i went "damn this raid sucks for melee wish i was ranged"

[supple pawn]

Mnmm, gotcha

[fleet wharf]

idk, s3 of tww felt a bit more range favored

[tepid trellis]

manaforge?

[fleet wharf]

yea

[tepid trellis]

huh?

you did nothing as a melee the whole tier

[lilac stag]

very odd take