subtlety

[chrome palm]

this is just sad LOL

[south pelican]

are we crafting MH weapon boys? Thoughts?

[chrome palm]

like come on

[lucid jackal]

This is like the only visual sub could get that'd make sense

[spare totem]

What is that?

[heady garden]

give all clones dfa animation

[gray patrol]

Good afternoon everyone, I'd like to ask a question about AoE damage.

Is it better to use Shuriken Storm and Black Powder, or should I generate combo points with Sinister Strike and spend them on Black Powder?

[lucid jackal]

Shadow blades

[onyx flame]

Oh god please no

[chrome palm]

this is our BIG cooldown

[spare totem]

Oh shit really? lol

[chrome palm]

aka purple fart effect #3

[spare totem]

I’m a dwarf so I can’t see shit

[chrome palm]

i dont think it has to do with your race

[spare totem]

I’m saying my dwarf is short so I can’t see any effects lol

[vale pine]

think of ky'veza

would be one idea

[chrome palm]

RIP my red flagellation glyph 🥀

[vale pine]

stealthi posted some visuals from other arpg's too

we are not limited to a single "this makes sense"

[spare totem]

I been debating on race changing. Just not sure what

[willow knoll]

All I want to play is Undead because I don't like most of the character models.

[spare totem]

Undead male looks good but the armor sizing is so fucked

Fucked*

[plush roost]

Honestly if our clones were a bit more defined i think this spec would be way cooler visually

[chrome palm]

spriest has a talent that makes fade summon a "clone" pet that aggros for you

[willow knoll]

I like their gamer posture

[chrome palm]

and it looks way better than our clones

[plush roost]

Rn theyre so faded and obsure

[tepid trellis]

honestly they should just turn up the opacity on the shadow clones

so you actually notice

them

[plush roost]

Yea

[tepid trellis]

and id be happy

[plush roost]

I notice the shuriken storm clone

[lucid jackal]

Yeah ofc. But I don't want sub, or rogue in general just to be like, teemu dh

[plush roost]

Constantly

Cause it does a big purple circle

[karmic harbor]

is blind single target only now?

[lucid jackal]

Yeh

[plush roost]

Ye

[tepid trellis]

yes

[wet anvil]

!craft

[willow knoll]

I just hate the visual clarity on SS and BS

[plush roost]

On the other hand imagine how subtle it would be if our shadow clone leaped in and did an eyebeam into deathsweep and then exploded in a felsurge

[willow knoll]

idk why it always throws me off

[vale pine]

void visuals on dh kinda limit the design space if you want to avoid overlaps

[willow knoll]

But also how do you make a backstab look cooler tbh

[vale pine]

is my opinion on it

[chrome palm]

feel like this is so much easier to see than what sub has

[willow knoll]

It kinda does what it should do.

[vale pine]

i still do think there is a lot of potential

[plush roost]

Ye spriest apparations go hard

[chrome palm]

thats fade

[plush roost]

Same visual as an apparation tho no?

[chrome palm]

no apparition isnt your player model

its like an older model

[plush roost]

Ohh i c

[vale pine]

https://giphy.com/gifs/xbox-game-xbox-series-x-s-ihPCMF0he6qAROEL9J

[chrome palm]

i like the "shine" effect on our clones but

[plush roost]

Meh notice those more than sectec

[chrome palm]

me too

[vale pine]

this looks fitting for example

[chrome palm]

they are just more opaque

[plush roost]

I actually think that shadowstep shoulda been ddh shift animation lmfao

But theyre the purple class now

[chrome palm]

i feel like ddh/spriest kinda eats into what blizzard thinks subtlety's visual design can be

like if they go too shadowy then they dont think its rogue anymore

so we end up with extremely muted effects

[wet anvil]

@vale pine hey, do we craft dagger ?

[vale pine]

if you want to craft, yes

dagger has the highest chance to be a good craft

[plush roost]

Yea they give us shadowstrike animation and then it gets overided by your next gcd and looks super jank

[vale pine]

if you want to wait, and see if embellishments change or sth

thats fine too

there is no urgency with crafting atm

[plush roost]

Do strike evis over and over on a female panda

That shit is JANK

[onyx flame]

Could be a raven visual for shadowstep

[chrome palm]

if you want a laugh

go press shiv on a dummy and look at the animation

[willow knoll]

Trying to figure out what to spent my level boost on.

I'm new but I leveled both my toons from 1-90

So I got this boost just sitting there

[onyx flame]

Another rogue of course

[willow knoll]

had that thought too ngl

[limpid sage]

Subtle hehe

[spare totem]

Is it blades first or dance?

[cursive vapor]

#subtlety-faq message

[edgy star]

With ancient arts - do you still apply the rules on the first opener? i.e. just keep shadowstriking until you get ancient arts? There's times where I end up running out of dance/energy

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only up to 3 targets.

[graceful crown]

Excuse me, whats the objective of ignoring 50% armor if we deal less damage than other melee classes that doesnt do it? there is mobs with high armor and physical resistance or something? feels like a stupid mechanic this days (probably much more important in early years)

[hazy breach]

Its basically just +17% more physical damage

[graceful crown]

isnt the same as buffing our overall damage?

[fleet wharf]

i think we do significantly more shadow damage now, no?

[graceful crown]

like ok find weakness deleted, just buff all the damage and is the same

haha

[fleet wharf]

but muh immersion

[graceful crown]

if there are mobs with high resistance or something, its alright

[fleet wharf]

something something lore

[graceful crown]

but find weakness doesnt give us any real advantage haha

[graceful crown]

yeah, guess so

[fleet wharf]

I think that's a pretty fair point you're making

[astral axle]

ignore armor sounds cooler than damage amp

[fleet wharf]

but idk, armor pen used to be really good, like.... WOTLK

[hazy breach]

Its like 50/50

[fleet wharf]

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it some more, isn't it more for PVP balancing?

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[fleet wharf]

like you're not so helpless vs plates?

[hazy breach]

Well yeah, but im not sure why you thought it would be

[vale pine]

spread of damage, purple = shadow

[hazy breach]

Well its not entirely accurate

It doesnt have shadowed finishers

[vale pine]

oh true, it does not split that out

[graceful crown]

derp, well it sounds cool, subtlety always find the weakness >:)

[vale pine]

same for coup

[hot leaf]

what would people say the best use of sparks is gonna be for sub? My thought would be weapons and then craft two embellishment pieces with crests

[lucid jackal]

Dagger

[limpid sage]

You don’t keep shadowstriking till you get it

You shadowstrike if already full and at +5 ShT stacks to proc it when the conditions align

Which is often

[snow berry]

Are there embellishment sims for sub yet anywhere?

[limpid sage]

But you don’t force it when at 0 ShT by spamming strike

[snow berry]

I thought embelish weapon and offpiece, is there an embellishment that buffs the weapon embelishment deck again?

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hot leaf]

Think the play is two armor embellishment pieces for 160 veteran crests then make two weapons with spark

but not sure, thats why I thought I'd ask some smarter minds in here

[limber cliff]

I thought hunt was busted

I know it is for WW

Where you want two of them

[hot leaf]

maybe hunt + linen according to this

[edgy star]

I think I'm a little confused then - so if I'm at 0 combo, 0 stored, then run my opener on the boss, I am meeting all the conditions of !aa to keep pressing shadowstrike.

ah, maybe missing the second criteria, must have 5 stored

[snow berry]

arent the spark weapons just 259? and we can only make 1 at the moment

Also QQ is that trinket from rep working in sims or nah?

[hot leaf]

you're right wwe can only make 1 atm, but before raid we should be able to make two

[shrewd lantern]

they cost 2

[snow berry]

Yer

[shrewd lantern]

and offhand is the weakest slot

[vale pine]

deck is a good combination but raid trinkets are rly good

[hot leaf]

yes and there are 2 resets left before raid opens which means if you are fast the last reset you could technically get 2

[vale pine]

at least last i checked, it was not worth to sacrafice a trinket slot for an embllishment

[shrewd lantern]

why would you make 2 daggers

[vale pine]

you would not

[shrewd lantern]

if you get myth wep early wasted a slot

[snow berry]

I dont mean trinkets i mean like weapon embellishment + do we have embellishment on offpiece that buffs the weapon embellishment

like last season

[vale pine]

offhand dagger slot is one of the lowest impact

[hot leaf]

so mh + something else would be the play?

[vale pine]

it looks like you go with dagger

[snow berry]

and then waist/wrist with lining arcanoweave

[shrewd lantern]

do you need crests to make dagger or just spark+mats

[limber cliff]

Spark mats

[snow berry]

either I think

[vale pine]

and then use a low budget slot with embellishemnt

wrists, belt, boots

slots like that

[snow berry]

How do you decide if you go wrists, belt or boots?

[hot leaf]

are you saving your spark or just making mh now

[snow berry]

like im dumb

[shrewd lantern]

2nd slot likely depends on vaults

[hot leaf]

does it make a big difference

[vale pine]

it does not matter much

[hot leaf]

depends bor

[vale pine]

the diffrence is very minimal

[hot leaf]

I'd wait with that slot

[snow berry]

wont you most likely just grab tier/trinkets in vault?

[hot leaf]

since it depends on the loot you get in m0+

[shrewd lantern]

not everyone has the choice

lol

[vale pine]

the best is usually to go with whatever slot you get the biggest upgrade from

[snow berry]

so you can craft a 2nd embellishment just with veteran crests before raid

[shrewd lantern]

can you lining a cloak

or still not

[vale pine]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1476887002019270761/Midnight_s1_fixed.png

[shrewd lantern]

dagger is fine to make since its bis offhand

worst case scenario

[vale pine]

dagger is usually the best to make

because weapon damage is our strongest scaling factor

[shrewd lantern]

Yeah been that way for a few tiers

[vale pine]

yes

ever since they changed crafting

[shrewd lantern]

be me and make outlaw wep first reset of s1

and get dagger off 2nd boss

same week

[vale pine]

i mean

there is this little minigame of optimization

[shrewd lantern]

This was also with the s1 crafting bug

[vale pine]

you can "hold" your craft for a long time

[shrewd lantern]

where recrafting your wep removed crest costs on weapons

[vale pine]

but it means, you sacrafice dps before the craft

[shrewd lantern]

for both hands

🤣

[vale pine]

so depends on your enviroment

[shrewd lantern]

that was a funny bug to abuse

didnt pay crests for weapons outside of 636-639

rest of the tier

[snow berry]

Need to check what outlaw bis will be, probz just mainhand wep and then veteran crest a offhand dagger and veteran crest embellish wrists or belt/boots i guess

Is this trinket not working in sims? Like is it worth equiping, raidbots seems to think ass

[limber cliff]

It was broken in sims, try latest

But it was also nerfed and I'm unsure if that nerf was updated in sims

[vernal furnace]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[snow berry]

Simmed latest and its like leaps below 237 trinkets so think probably still bugged

[limber cliff]

The fact that it had to be nerfed is probably a good sign it's good

But also Arms exists so you know...

[tulip light]

i was simming races and panda was almost bottom how come people say its up there with mecha gnome? am i simming somthing wrong / missing anything?

[hazy breach]

If you are using weekly it still uses tww consumables

In which case ye panda stinks

[tulip light]

i was noticing this in quick sim etc as well . how can i sim midnight consums etc?

[hazy breach]

Dont use weekly

[tulip light]

how do i change that on raidbots?

[hazy breach]

To the right

[tulip light]

thanks sir!

[hazy breach]

You can also manually change them underneath if you want

[hasty hawk]

Does anyone have an idea which rogue spec is topping the charts rn? Internet's opinion varies a lot

[hazy breach]

Blizzard decided to launch the game with a very unbalanced patch and refusing to do any balancing until the 17th, at which point we will almost surely see a huge patch

[shrewd lantern]

guardian druid

[hazy breach]

It seems like most people think sub is the best for m0, but youre still gonna be doing literally half of what good arcane mages or demo locks are doing on ST

[chrome palm]

inb4 ctrl+f "rogue" 0 results

[hazy breach]

Well if everybody else gets -30% its 📈

[fallow glade]

always 1 result

||the diablo guide link at the bottom||

[chrome palm]

surely

[graceful crown]

sub early season is usually good then high m+ plus plus plus happens >:) and our nerfs arent reverted hiiiiiiii

[azure thicket]

there's probably more good prot paladins running around tbh

https://tenor.com/view/mapache-pedro-gif-7206648027763736533

[vale pine]

there is some underlying problem with all of it

one part is people wanting immidiate answers for feature events

thats why everyone is so obsessed with "how is X looking", "will x or y be best for raid"

now the problem is, especially now with this long time of stagnation

there will be a certain perception set

[graceful crown]

cooldown manager doesnt have the first dance really?

zzzzzzzzzzz

[vale pine]

so the OP classes are seen as valuable

blizz does tuning based on perception

so they don't want to suddenly make people who started playing X feel bad for doing so

[graceful crown]

blizz is more lost on balancing that the people whose are obsessed with "how is X looking"

haha

[vale pine]

this is never a situation rogue was in, because the class is rarely popular

so balancing will focus on keeping these "good" specs good

the saving grace here might be the heroic week

because blizz can do tuning at the start of it

but thats the problem

people now invested 2 weeks into a class or spec, that maybe suddenly isn't that good anymore

[graceful crown]

blizz probably throw some dices for choosing some specs, see popularity and buff them for the next season if seems that they would attract more people to play and pay monthly

[vale pine]

so the likelyhood of the "OP" to not at least stay on top is lower

which is why meta chasing is such a rewarding thing

you rarely get punished for doing so, most of the time rewarded

[graceful crown]

yeah...

i could play all s3 with arcane mage and it was meta since min 1

[vale pine]

this theory also explains some other things

like how a spec can go from top in dps to literally worse dps in the game

[hazy breach]

Blizzards balancing is generally quite good. The raid is very well balanced most of the time

[chrome palm]

sub was still tuned well in m+ last tier, i dont think it was insane early in the season either outside of ebing a vers class

[hazy breach]

For some reason they often just give up on m+ tuning though

[chrome palm]

s2 beginning was an outlier because of the sub buffs and transmitter

[hazy breach]

Which is just strange, because the seasons where they actaully do tuning often ends up being more well recieved, or maybe they do tuning because its more well recieved? Idk

[vale pine]

especially if the popualtion size is low, e.g. as showcased in s2 TWW

[graceful crown]

yeah the thing is that our utility is the problem why we are so behind outside of dps

we can do good dps sometimes

really good

[chrome palm]

well people generally want to be invited to keys when they play a character or just have an easier time in general

so playing a dk gets you far better results than playing a rogue

[vale pine]

i don't think they tune for m+ at all

[chrome palm]

its just easier to play dk in general

[hazy breach]

They do sometmes

[chrome palm]

because of this

[vale pine]

if they do they only fix extremes

[hazy breach]

I just dont understand why they dont

[vale pine]

i do have some theories based on some amount of insider knowlage i have

but thats all speculation

[dire ravine]

Go on 👀

[graceful crown]

tbh I think this class is more charming because of its low popularity.

[haughty mural]

We are waiting fuu

[hardy agate]

https://tenor.com/view/curiosity-intensifies-cat-gif-14372862

[graceful crown]

only freaks play rogue

:p

[hardy agate]

Can confirm, i play rogue so 1 out of 1 people i know that plays rogue is a freak

[vale pine]

i mean you don't need any insider knowlage to get to the same conclusion

if you look at the population spread of m+

[graceful crown]

36 members in my guild right now, im the only rogue (and the only M raider that goes with rogue)

xd

[vale pine]

there is just a very low number of people who does keys outside of the "high reward" range

and this range is typically tuned so low that spec does not matter

so in a sense

m+ baalnce is good

[graceful crown]

true

[vale pine]

depending on how you look at the problem space

[graceful crown]

if you want to tryhard and dont have a good group, best thing to do is follow blizz and play meta specs

[gilded thistle]

is it a bug that I'm always stuck in combat until dance runs out?

[graceful crown]

you cant go into stealth if dance is up

[tulip light]

@gilded thistle you cant stealth with dance up even out of combat thats it prob

[gilded thistle]

no, according to the UI I'm specifically in combat

[vale pine]

combat drops slowly sometimes

[dire ravine]

For a multi dollar company- seems extremely lazy that they can’t appropriately balance the specs to have viability vs continuously honing the “Darling classes”

[vale pine]

but the stealth thing is true too

[gilded thistle]

hm

[dire ravine]

You’re right, but confirmation bias is nice

[shrewd lantern]

Most of the playerbase doesnt do content this matters

[vale pine]

the underlying problem is scope

[graceful crown]

For Blizz, it doesn't matter; they know that whatever they set up, everyone who wants to play will play whatever meta they put in, so balancing doesn't matter. The classes that are usually stronger are always the most popular, so they'll make money anyway.

[vale pine]

i think s2 tww shows very well what i mean

subtlety had a lot of benefits for the tier and was initially the priority choice

then it literally fell down to the dead last place in dps

[graceful crown]

it remained the same all the season

while balancing sheet were changing

[vale pine]

and we discussed it in here

the positions people took ended up very diffrent

e.g. one specific outlaw main was very vocal how subtleties position in raid was indisputable, and confident of it staying highly relevant

while my stance was more questioning the balancing decisions, when "everything else" was buffed while subtlety was left out

there is no wrong or correct position to take, just two fundermentally diffrent ways to look at the problem

[haughty mural]

Not even mugzee could prove him wrong

[shrewd lantern]

Realistically why does ir matter

[vale pine]

because the buffs/changes wheren't fully implemented at the time of the discussion, we could just disagree on it and come back later and discuss

[shrewd lantern]

unless you base everything off egoing on details

Though guardian gapping 50% of the dps specs is comical

[vale pine]

it turned out, the position i took was in this case correct

as you saw subtlety being dead last in the wcl chart, and a close to 0 player count

this was only possible because of popularity of rogue and specifically subtelty

[shrewd lantern]

Though i feel with multi spec dps clases

[graceful crown]

The less a spec is played, the less likely it is to be buffed or nerfed.

[shrewd lantern]

people just play whatever spec is tuned higher

very few otps

[vale pine]

there is a inherent bias

like, you see a trend

[shrewd lantern]

sin was decent in s2

on the relevant bosses

[vale pine]

of assassiantion always ending up as the best spec mid/late tier

[shrewd lantern]

its also easier to play+has execute

[vale pine]

you see this bias also with buffs

[shrewd lantern]

though i think spatter got smacked pretty hard

so who knows this tier

[lusty acorn]

Hope they fix assa

[vale pine]

where specs who fell behind often get buffed to be either on par of above the others

while in s2 tww, subtlety just got a minor buff to not be last in the dps ranking anymore

but not to the point to give any reason to play it

this is just very untypical balancing

and stood out

[lusty acorn]

Lets hope there is 2 more tunning

[vale pine]

on the flip side, subtlety ended up as the go-to spec at least for initial progresison a lot during df/tww

So early tuning is less impacted by bias and more random

[vale pine]

there will be more tuning

also tuning isn't super bad rn

its just not done enough

[short aurora]

.5

[vale pine]

the "no tuning before raid" is interestsing tbh

[lusty acorn]

they said last 2 for this season

[vale pine]

wdm last 2?

[short aurora]

last 2 rogue adjustments

[vale pine]

the only information we got was not tuning before heroic raid

[short aurora]

[vale pine]

warlock and mage is probabl getting adjustments

DK too if what i hear is true

[fair phoenix]

hi guys, how can i anchor my Trinket to the Essential bar, and also how can i implement the buff from ancestral call and the trinket buff ?

i use BCM and UUF

[potent heath]

mhhhh

[fiery fog]

their sims are crazy

[vale pine]

i think a lot of it is bugs tho

so if bugs get fixed

performance changes

[lusty acorn]

I think 17 will be big tunning hope the listen to feedbacks

17 march

[vale pine]

bottom line is, balancing is difficult, and having more tuning means you can adjust things to be closer to each other

[warm marlin]

I have the objectively correct tuning prediction

arcane/demo/guardian/udk get murdered in the street on the 17th

[vale pine]

mythic+ as is might be difficult to tune, because of raid buffs and other problems

[warm marlin]

sub will eat a small aura nerf after heroic week

[vale pine]

i hope not

we don't have a stand out trinket or tier set

like s3 tww

[warm marlin]

aoe burst very strong indeed

[vale pine]

the biggest hope for tuning is the general easier game design

[warm marlin]

and easy to setup

[vale pine]

bosses are simple

specs are simple

so theoretically, should mean things are easier to get right

[hardy snow]

most likely a nerf into Mythic raid with a later buff that decides Sub's future

when spec is simple, it is also very simple for people to understand/spot when it shows it is "dead" low tuned.

[haughty mural]

17th will be the day arms rises

[tulip light]

any thoughts on the current interaction of apex (striking at full cp to procc it) will stay that way? seems very unintuitive kina what they try to avoid lately no?

[swift tinsel]

idk it'll probs stick around until at least season 3

resoures are effectively free during dance/blades anyways

[fleet wharf]

I also agree it feels unintuitive and am hoping for a fix, but my expectations of it actually happeneing are low given history

[swift tinsel]

idk I like it

[dire ravine]

I kinda like it? A lil bit more agency to procc it on my own

[swift tinsel]

gives an option in aoe as well for overall or prio by forcing coup

[opaque trail]

does this macro works for u guys ?

[swift tinsel]

and you're still somewhat restricted on when you can do it based on if you have enought sht by the time you're gonna strike or finish

[lusty acorn]

I need macro shadow dance and shadowblade if anyone have

[swift tinsel]

emphasis on somewhat

[fleet wharf]

I see that, but it's just kind of weird coming from always wanting to send double finishers when we can to that being a damage loss

[shrewd lantern]

They probably wont change it

because most of the playerbase will ignore it

since its a minor gain

[swift tinsel]

^

[fleet wharf]

I feel it's coinflip either way

[swift tinsel]

its very much minor, but allows for optimizing

which is good imo

its not going to gatekeep the spec from anyone by any means

[fiery fog]

i think its good if it stays around 1.5% gain

[swift tinsel]

ye same

[fiery fog]

optimising should be something we should be able to

but not needed

[swift tinsel]

100%

[shrewd lantern]

your average wow player never goes beyond normal raids

[fiery fog]

lfr*

[swift tinsel]

and to be fair, there's plenty of instances of specs getting resource flooded and entirely ignoring one or the other

[fiery fog]

the only thing that irritates me

is when im on 4 sht stacks

[swift tinsel]

lmao

[fiery fog]

evis

[swift tinsel]

dude

same

[fiery fog]

and get 2 the second i press it

[swift tinsel]

drives me up a wall

[shrewd lantern]

reminds me when assa wanted to finish at 4+

and sometimes mut put you at 3

[graceful crown]

i topped all the M0 by far i have done with pugs, obviously we need a nerf (?) is not because people are still learning their class (?)

[swift tinsel]

imagine if we had aoe blind on top of that

literal thanos spec

[graceful crown]

17th march, sub aoe dead

[fiery fog]

iin my premade m0 it was kinda hard to keep up with some specs

[fleet wharf]

I think we're getting an evisc damage nerf on the 17th to nerf our aoe

[swift tinsel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923898501529600/1342596269193039943/9l2o5h.gif

what

huh

[shrewd lantern]

we look good on details if you just disable it

after the coup hit in shb lands

:)

[swift tinsel]

details says I hit for 480k

[shrewd lantern]

also in questing like holyyyy

the mob dies before my clone sectech hits

[swift tinsel]

also I'm convinced they updated the clone animation even more

it looks more tendril-y than before

[dire ravine]

Think that’s just bc stuff has like zero health and sub burst big so it’s skewed asf

[graceful crown]

tbh i prefer my old bfa 18M evis for prio dmg instead blackpowder rotation but its ok

[shrewd lantern]

i feel the most visually evident is the clone shurikens

[graceful crown]

yeah thats probably the most reasonable

[shrewd lantern]

it was better in legion

who tf played sub in bfa past s1

[graceful crown]

i just tried it

i mainly played outlaw

:d

[shrewd lantern]

prio is kinda cope but yeah fair

[swift tinsel]

nvm its just my shoulder transmog lmao

[fiery fog]

sub and prio dmg in 2026

[graceful crown]

F 2026

[fiery fog]

its not bfa anymore

[graceful crown]

we are a fire mage

[fiery fog]

bfa was 8 years ago guys

[graceful crown]

instead flamestrikes we throw powder to our enemies with all our shadow might

[shrewd lantern]

it was legion

when they removed shuriken combo is when prio got axed

[graceful crown]

and sometimes a purple toon throw more powder

[swift tinsel]

god the clones are so close to being perfect

[graceful crown]

btw i dont remember this change, wheres shadowstrike

(?)

why

[plush roost]

Beta change

[graceful crown]

F

[plush roost]

A whille back

Its a good thing

They can buff strike and evis

[graceful crown]

ah true for st

[plush roost]

Without breaking the spec

W

[maiden oar]

what is the chance of eviscerate buff

to compensate

[swift tinsel]

if only

[maiden oar]

in ur educated opinion

[fleet wharf]

only black powder buffs

[graceful crown]

tbh i think i have more fun with stalker than trickster but it is what it is

[swift tinsel]

also I tried out that vs caster build for devourer and holy moly it is fun

[shrewd lantern]

it was probably for the better that all 3 specs dont just have

[fiery fog]

ew

[shrewd lantern]

"your st rotation now cleaves"

[fleet wharf]

I dont like the current mark interaction. I also remembered I can't use that word here

[swift tinsel]

ye it caps your st potential

[shrewd lantern]

like spatter in tww holy

20-30% of your damage on a fight

[plush roost]

Ive already come to the conclusion that assa will emerge from the wreckage

[shrewd lantern]

to a 1 pt early choice node

[maiden oar]

yeah i love.melee

but apparently the mastery thing in void scarred is bugged

[graceful crown]

assa will be top at 17th

[swift tinsel]

ofc

[graceful crown]

tww remembers

[maiden oar]

and annihilators just bis 100%

so no melee for u

but annihilator still plays devourers bite

so u get to voidblade for the amp wahoo

[shrewd lantern]

just put on a cloth mog

and rp as a spriest

[swift tinsel]

if you can line up a bite for a 5th star

[maiden oar]

fight design caters to sub so hard for alot of fights imo

but my prediction is that midnight falls is a sin fight

[plush roost]

I think beloran as well

[maiden oar]

no as in the uh

[fleet wharf]

i figured it out

[graceful crown]

:p

[maiden oar]

ah ok hehe

[plush roost]

Depends on when the egg phases are

[maiden oar]

idk the timer

yeah

[dire ravine]

I’m so happy to be on 1.5’s. 2m CD’s are not the business.

[maiden oar]

its jsut dependent on when he egg

[plush roost]

Ye assa burst is higher than sub in st

So if its a good timer

Gg

[maiden oar]

hehe

surely the secret mythic phase of crown of cosmos goes isnane

ive never seen one before

[plush roost]

Surely...

[maiden oar]

i am so excited

tbh i never got to see uh

fyrak seed or denathrius 2 dimensions either

or halodnrus bomb if u wanna call it that

and i always wished i was playing wow when those fights were current

[plush roost]

Xalatoes wiggle through the air and force you to dodge void nails

[maiden oar]

so im excited for midnight falls too

i hope seeds arent a ranged only mech

[short radish]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/766349238941777931/1294061986115747861/lmfao.gif?=&width=1233&height=1080

[dire ravine]

Welcome to flavor town

[warm marlin]

low

dont think our st is even that bad

[maiden oar]

grim!
i wanna do more st

yea i just wanna do more

the fractillus incident has filled me with righteous passion

[fiery fog]

i felt so weak in m0 with a mage and devour dh in my group xd

[maiden oar]

i need to smoke all the good st classes just once

make them pay for what they did

[graceful crown]

i had a devdh in my group just now and i crushed him, idk

its random

[plush roost]

M8 we lose to havoc in the sims it is grimithy

[warm marlin]

not at the literal bottom anymore

[plush roost]

(Sandbagging hope to manifest buffs)

[graceful crown]

i feel a lot clunky in st, like my evis doesnt do damage

[warm marlin]

hope is real

[maiden oar]

i manifest evisc buff

[swift tinsel]

I'd actually like one

quite a bit

if its sizeable

[maiden oar]

i wonder if ive gotta lower my sqw so i can snipe last second sht that gets me over the threshold

[warm marlin]

i dont think evis buff bp nerf is out of this world

but dont think its likely

[maiden oar]

i am so on edge every time i have a new gcd and its 4 sht

[plush roost]

Should buff instant poisom an insane amount to make us play darkbrew and really fuck us up

[swift tinsel]

ye I bet it'll just be an aura nerf

to put us firmly in the middle third somewhere

[chrome palm]

sub needs some st juice imo

[maiden oar]

yea

[swift tinsel]

man I want dark brew to be interesting so badly

[chrome palm]

actually scratch that st nerf

[maiden oar]

i want it but whatever if u buff assa instead guess ill play that

[chrome palm]

i dont want to play sub this tier please blizz

[maiden oar]

ok yea

buff outlaw

20%

[plush roost]

I already crafted my fist weapon

[swift tinsel]

if sub gets absolutely cratered I'm playing dh or feral lol

[warm marlin]

??

[swift tinsel]

homeboy hates current sub

[warm marlin]

wthelly...

[swift tinsel]

has not been subtle about it either lmao

[maiden oar]

i think of all 3 rogue specs rn id like to play outlaw the most in raid but

not happening!

[swift tinsel]

I'd be okay-ish with outlaw

[plush roost]

It will happen

[swift tinsel]

but I really don't vibe with assassination

[plush roost]

Outlaw will rise

[swift tinsel]

the playstyle is just the opposite of what I enjoy

[plush roost]

Source: i am sword

[chrome palm]

this sub just feels awful i hate it a lot

tree boss in blinding vale

[maiden oar]

i always craft axe

[chrome palm]

i get to hold secret technique for like 12 seconds

or not do any damage to adds

this spec fucking blows

[graceful crown]

nah god

[maiden oar]

i miss old sub and i would also rather the other 2 specs be better in raid but

i think if the fight timings force me to use my brain and sub is the best spec

ill have fun still

if everythings a multiple of 20s gg

[plush roost]

In a high key those adds live for 20+ second

Is just keylevel2low rn

[chrome palm]

imagine reclearing as this spec though

[hazy breach]

I mean thats still ass

[plush roost]

Beta keys sub had sectec for literally everything

[fleet wharf]

isnt it about the same as reclearing as assa?

[warm marlin]

we did a triple sub world tour today

[graceful crown]

so hard to balance goremaw's bite

[warm marlin]

was fun

[maiden oar]

post turbo boost and 18% raid buff?

[graceful crown]

its op right now

[hazy breach]

The problem is that goremaw solves an issue we dont have (low energy)

[chrome palm]

assa you just hit the boss and pray that you roll well

for your parse

or bug abuse

[graceful crown]

yeah hahaha

[maiden oar]

so glad this is gone

[plush roost]

Mfw my spec is all blindside

[graceful crown]

i dont know why they dont touch it

[maiden oar]

id have played sin in s3 but i couldnt stand the tier set bug

[fleet wharf]

what is the outlaw damage profile like btw? is it still flat ish or is it a bit more spikey cuz AR isn't 100% uptime?

[plush roost]

No dev time allocated to rogue, unpopular class is what it is

[maiden oar]

still more flat than other specs

[chrome palm]

last tier on heroic splits the other rogue did 400k more than me on fractillus and we didnt know why, it was just blindside im prettys ure

he had twice my casts

[maiden oar]

im not sure bc i never played a ton of old outlaw

[pastel quarry]

had a surv hunter get a dagger I needed in m0 that shit broke my heart

[fleet wharf]

Me neither but they seem to have more buttons and buffs to track than sub so I'm looking into it kinda

[maiden oar]

in terms of how it compares to old outlaw

but vanish charges were more modular than prep is rn

unless theres like a single time u want to prep once in a fight and otherwise nothing matters

[graceful crown]

[fleet wharf]

That's for m+ right?

[plush roost]

Pure st encounter

[swift tinsel]

they play the 20% adr amp talent too don't they?

[fleet wharf]

Huh

[swift tinsel]

no longer the flatbois

[fleet wharf]

am I crazy or is that not flat

yea

[plush roost]

In m+ yes but that is garfrost an st fight

Its not flat ye

Those little jumps are bte chains and big ones AR

[graceful crown]

oh sorry that was the artifact trait

2 years without a change in a tier talent thats like that

[chrome palm]

this was from my dummy sim from that time a week ago

[swift tinsel]

what a glowup

[plush roost]

Mage comparison

So its not like crazy jumps

But its still not flat

Arcane specifically

[swift tinsel]

arcane feels so fucking weird to play now

[plush roost]

The for example, this is a assa rogue burst

Compared to dk*

[fleet wharf]

time to assa or outlaw ig

[west tide]

back to sin prison

[plush roost]

Then this is sub

Yknow just some perspective

[plush roost]

This was sub?

[swift tinsel]

peaks and valleys my beloved

[west tide]

this gonna be a movie in raid bro

[chrome palm]

yes tar dummy sim

1 dance blades

[plush roost]

Xd

Tierset save us

[chrome palm]

does that mean

rework before s2

:)

[plush roost]

Thats actually so flat when we have no gear xdd

[chrome palm]

yeah its insane

no haste trinket and no base haste

no buffs or anything

[plush roost]

Like this is what it should look like

[maiden oar]

i was trying to mitigate this by dry secteching off cd after blades wore off

[chrome palm]

but also the simc report itself smooths out the damage a lot

[maiden oar]

so i could get 2 dance in blades still

but idk if thats correct

[chrome palm]

like you cant find individual dances

[plush roost]

Ah thats annoying

[chrome palm]

well i guess you can

those tiny humps

[plush roost]

This is what the sim does iirc

Sectec on cd even if dance isnt back

And it realigns because of that

If haste too low it doesnt workout tho zz

[chrome palm]

my intuitive, flexible spec 🥰

[maiden oar]

icic

i tried to explain this earlier and i think i made myself look like an insane person

[plush roost]

Its way less noticable with flag trinket

Since ur always sectecing both dances

[chrome palm]

who elses uses that, udk?

maybe ww

[plush roost]

Not a ton of peeps

[chrome palm]

ww prob uses puzzle box tho

since they actually have flexibility

for when they use cds

[plush roost]

2 mim ww

[chrome palm]

its whenever they want

[plush roost]

Also lets be real

[chrome palm]

like dance with no blades

i think

[plush roost]

Theres no windwalkers taking raid loot

[chrome palm]

LOL

[plush roost]

Hehe

[chrome palm]

im sure the 90s specs will want it tho just because there isnt anything else really

[plush roost]

Yeah blizzard really said fuck 1.5s

Theres like no good agi trinkets

Meanwhile int users have 1.3k mastery 1.5m cd

Like xD?

[fair phoenix]

someone know how to anchor the trinket into the essential cds on bettercooldownmanager?

[graceful crown]

sub nerfed by default

[fair phoenix]

im trying to anchor but the power bar doesnt become bigger and nothing seems to be sincronized

[chrome palm]

1.3k mastery vs 700 haste

hmmm

does it have int passive?

[plush roost]

Yerp, idk if been nerfed since beta but that thing was nuts

[chrome palm]

lol

[final moat]

yo is the adds rotation juist

shuriken spam

[chrome palm]

maybe thats the reason casters are insane idk

just op trinket

[plush roost]

Half of them didnt even play it, they have another turbo op trinket

The ribbon thing

[chrome palm]

beginning to make sense

casters just eat lobster every tier idk

one day they will come down with the gout

[graceful crown]

both have gcd

if you macro sectech and eviscerate you will cast secret tech but not evis

ahh i see what you are trying to say

mmmm i dont know about it

sometimes you need to keep sectech for a good burst window

if you're just spamming sectech u cant time it right

[graceful crown]

whats the point for this? please someone tell me

it makes me mad

PURE MADNESS

[short radish]

so blizzard can justify not giving us smoke bomb

Blizzard: Look we gave them smoke bomb back and they haven't taken it once

[graceful crown]

thank you for the explanation now i can rip in pieces

[short radish]

[proper eagle]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only up to 3 targets.

[small helm]

ancient arts makes sub feel so sick

those double taps

[wet anvil]

is here someone who already crafted?

[lilac stag]

a few of us have

[wet anvil]

u crafted weap?

[candid field]

How big of a difference is following this optimization?

[hushed kelp]

I think it's around 1.5% ish

[tame terrace]

so this is just saying to not finish under these conditions?

wait cdm doesnt track ancient arts

wtf

[dire ravine]

You can track your stacks though.

[tame terrace]

sure but that doesnt matter if i need to know if ancient arts is up or not since that can happen

i can surmise based on stacks

but thats kinda annoying lol

how is ancient arts not trackable but gravedigger for outlaw is

[tribal blade]

@lilac stag yell at me

[tame terrace]

which one are you

[tribal blade]

hrm i wonder

[tame terrace]

charliegh

[tribal blade]

yes precisely

you're a genisu

[tame terrace]

👍

[tribal blade]

😉

[tame terrace]

i dont see a sub rog in there

so

kinda goated that u cant track ancient arts, now u have to remember if u just finished or not, no longer braindead finish at 6 always ez no thoughts

[chrome palm]

blizzard gave you a new spell alert to track ancient arts (you just cant see it in dark areas)

so the 2nd half of magisters GL

stinky bright bis for usb

[tame terrace]

its spell alert only???

bruh i hate those

[chrome palm]

yes

[tame terrace]

no wonder

i hide them always

fuck spell alerts

[tribal blade]

yeah it's actually tilting when you're in a dark area

[tame terrace]

now im even more tilted

[chrome palm]

@tame terrace

[tame terrace]

what a horrendous spell alert

[chrome palm]

IK

every spell graphic for sub must be "black mush" tho

[tame terrace]

i guess we need that bright potion thing to see this in certain areas

god i hate it

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/getout-gif-16327023334064302194

[tribal blade]

it's fiiiiiiine

[tame terrace]

ok i dont like this apex talent

[lilac stag]

you would be in the minority then

[tame terrace]

1. forcing me to use spell alerts
2. this spell alert is god awful
3. pressing a builder when full on combo points is unintuitive (so i guess par for the course for sub rogue) and feels bad

[lilac stag]

You’ve got stored combo points so being “full” is perception

you don’t have to build at full. It’s just a way to get some extra dps at a rather minimal gain

[tame terrace]

the only thing i like about it rn is it provides some decision making during dance

[lilac stag]

my guess is you’ve spent less than 5 minutes with it, so it’s new and people love to complain about changes to things.

[tame terrace]

nah the spell alert thing blew it over the edge for me

thats why the mechanic part os the bottom of my complaints

[lilac stag]

fair enough. Enjoy assa

[tame terrace]

lol as if ill be playing assa

[sick basin]

You can play sub entirely ignoring the apex

And just let it do it's thing

[tame terrace]

yes i know that lol

but thats like besides the point entirely
i want to play around this

[sick basin]

The adjustment is a micro adjustment for people who just really want to max it out

[lilac stag]

well 2/3 rogue specs have spell alerts. So if spell alerts bother you that much don’t play those specs.

[tame terrace]

i just absolutely despise the spell alert

[lilac stag]

You don’t have to

[tame terrace]

???

i WANT to

i dont HAVE TO

but i WANT to

[lilac stag]

set the opacity to zero and forget about it

[tame terrace]

???

[lilac stag]

why if you hate it

[short radish]

because we hate ourselves

[lilac stag]

fickle

[short radish]

and are a glutton for punishment

[tame terrace]

anything to min max

the spell alert is god awful and i will complain about it

[sick basin]

At least it works...

Sadge

[tame terrace]

just let me track it like the other specs apex stuff

[lilac stag]

if you’re complaining about sending a strike at 7 cps and want to min/max I got nothing for ya

[sick basin]

You mean like Assa?

Where it bugs out after the first use and breaks?

[lilac stag]

full circle moment

[tame terrace]

yea i hate that too

thats a bug tho

ancient arts isnt trackable at all, gravedigger works afaik tho

[lilac stag]

wdym it’s not trackable?

[tame terrace]

u cant cdm it

[lilac stag]

That pink cp bar is AA is ready

track your sht stacks and you know when as is proccing

[tame terrace]

1. im already tracking sht
2. i would like to see aa buff when its up instead of relying on a spell alert or having to track it indirectly with sht

[lilac stag]

you’re not tracking indirectly with sht. Sht literally tells you the condition is met

2. you get a buff when it’s up. The black bars.

@short radish how’s tomorrow? I’m still stuck in today.

[tame terrace]

?? im literally complaining that aa is only directly tracked via the spell alerts, which is fucking stupid

sht conditions =/= directly tracking aa

thats tracking aa indirectly via sht

[swift tinsel]

you can't track the buff itself, which is the complaint

[tame terrace]

exaclty

like its a buff u can see on ur buff bar

[swift tinsel]

the aura itself is not in the cdm

[tame terrace]

and the black bar

why cant u aura on the cdm

[lilac stag]

It’s tracked by sht stacks and you’re just being obtuse to admit you can track it. You just want to react to something specifically called AA that lights up instead of planning around it which is what sub does.

[swift tinsel]

there is a literal aura in the buff bar in the top right of the screen, but not in the cdm

[lilac stag]

setup and planning in sub. Shocking.

[swift tinsel]

that's a valid complaint

bc its stupid that the AA buff itself is present in buffs, but not in the cdm buffs

[tame terrace]

if i can see it via spell alerts AND as a buff in the buff bar
why cant i track it via cdm

[swift tinsel]

sht nonwithstanding

[tame terrace]

liek that has nothing to do with planning or anything

[swift tinsel]

sht tells you when you can get the buff, not when you have the buff

[lilac stag]

ask blizzard. why can’t you track FW? idk they want what they want which is likely to not overwhelm people with tracking everything.

[tame terrace]

yet they provide it via spell alerts, so it just makes no sense

[swift tinsel]

ye its dumb

just from a logistics standpoint

they fixed implacable for sin so idk why aa is exempt

bc outlaw has gravedigger buff tracking

[tame terrace]

exactly

[swift tinsel]

so its literally just ancient arts

[tame terrace]

like implaceable is kinda scuffed, but at least it exists in cdm

[swift tinsel]

I think they fixed it so it shows stacks and then the buff duration after you let the envenom buff run out

or is it still just the bonus regen buff and not the stacking one

[lilac stag]

Not the stacking one

unless that was hotfixed recently

[swift tinsel]

bc I know they changed the icon for it as well

and that was really recent

[tame terrace]

if it was fixed, whispyr hasnt pinned it yet shrug

[lilac stag]

I’ve not activated the spec since beta

[swift tinsel]

I did the one time to look at if their cdm was as scuffed as ours lol

spoiler, it was

[civic swallow]

Is it safe to send spark craft on dagger this week?

[swift tinsel]

and I've done half of an m0 Den and switched to sub bc it was eh

[tame terrace]

yea stacks still dont show

[lilac stag]

99.9% safe

[lilac stag]

So it’s not “fixed”

[tame terrace]

no

but atleast its in the cdm

[swift tinsel]

now watch that's our only patch note on the 17th is them adding it

[lilac stag]

So you’re adding a tracking thing that doesn’t let you track anything. lol

[tame terrace]

i mean if it worked id use it

[lilac stag]

at least symbols is in the cdm

[kind edge]

We play around 18-20% haste for m+, for raid its around 30%?

I think i readed this somewhere cant find info

[lilac stag]

Get 684-700 haste for raid.

M+ you can run less. Feels worse with lower on bosses

[kind edge]

This number in % is around 20 right?

[lilac stag]

use the number not percent

[kind edge]

So we should stick this and forget the %

[lilac stag]

I literally just answered that

[short radish]

finally got a set of mail wrists on my shaman

so i could get achieve

[lilac stag]

nice

[short radish]

sitting at 240 ilvl now

my rogue got poop loot

and teh shaman i never intended on playing got a ton

[lilac stag]

Time to swap

[short radish]

but it all worked out

[lilac stag]

Crest maxing?

[short radish]

yeah

now basically all my alts can be 237 easily

all of my 2 other alts

because i cannot be fucked levelling anymore

im tired boss

[fleet wharf]

it feels like it takes way longer than tww

[short radish]

yeah

and you can't dungeon level

[fleet wharf]

what other alts u playing btw

[lilac stag]

I haven’t leveled anything else

[fleet wharf]

enha has been kinda fun tbh

[lilac stag]

still not sure I’m gonna play

depends how raid is

[short radish]

dunno yet. might try prot paladin again

shaman is apparently a bit whatever this tier

[fleet wharf]

i did shit damage as ele but idk if it was just shit gear while leveling or me not knowing how the spec works

[short radish]

so did I

but ele is kinda fun

probably the only caster i've enjoyed so far in wow

[fleet wharf]

yea, but losing to brew and guardian is like

[short radish]

i wonder how badly guardian gets nerf'd

and also how much of it is an overcorrection

because a lot of your damage is tied you not pressing survivability

[fleet wharf]

surely they would never overnerf or overbuff classes

not blizz

never

[short radish]

[fleet wharf]

I am slowly leveling a dk rn, just in time for them to have their legs broken on the 17th

[warm marlin]

main rogue got like 2 pieces from m0

[chrome palm]

xdd

[warm marlin]

alt rogue has like 2 non m0 pieces left

bro is 244

[fleet wharf]

grats on new main

[short radish]

surely blizzard doesn't let DKs be strong for the 5th tier in a row

[chrome palm]

minirogue got like

ring and 6 trinkets

[short radish]

wtf lol thats huge

[warm marlin]

also yellow messerknecht is very cursed

[fleet wharf]

just like they wouldn't remake shadow 5 seasons in a row

[chrome palm]

muahahaha

mustardknecht

[short radish]

roller coaster of psychic link

[chrome palm]

mind sear

was the most fun

[fleet wharf]

surely that 5% buff will fix everything

[chrome palm]

spriest ever was

with the free cast proc

[warm marlin]

almost perfect secondaries too

[chrome palm]

crafted

this jit would never law

[warm marlin]

you will not psyop me

it is never outlaw.

[short radish]

should i craft as well

what week do we recraft with crests though?

[warm marlin]

you could roll mythic dagger off early boss

but you still need to craft a dagger for sigil hunt

[short radish]

sigil hunt?

[warm marlin]

the embellishment

[swift tinsel]

embellishment

[short radish]

ahhhh

[warm marlin]

i will lowkirkenuinely be forced to level, gear, and prep my 3rd rogue if outlaw looks any good whatsoever

[chrome palm]

i saw you made another 👁️

[warm marlin]

i crafted dagger on both guys

[chrome palm]

bold

[maiden oar]

ok its over im being forced onto devourer

[chrome palm]

i mean

[maiden oar]

gn subcord

[chrome palm]

technically speaking

[warm marlin]

[chrome palm]

im the only person in my guild that has a rogue

so if ireally wanted to

[maiden oar]

and by forced i mean im agreeing to it because it makes sense given our roster situation

[chrome palm]

i could go sword

[warm marlin]

our dh player mentally crashed out so hard from devourer he wants to reroll to rogue with me

[fleet wharf]

lmao me too

[maiden oar]

what the

[fleet wharf]

isnt devourer fun?

[warm marlin]

and we may have another devourer player so it might happen

[chrome palm]

rogue rerollers 💀

[maiden oar]

what does he have against it i think its cool i like red mage final fantasy

[chrome palm]

they arent built for this

[warm marlin]

nah hes a gamer

[fleet wharf]

something something 3 buttons

[maiden oar]

wasnt arcane mage 3 buttoins

[warm marlin]

multispec enjoyer

[fleet wharf]

just like sub 🙂

[maiden oar]

and u needed like a wa to play it correctly

bc it was so crazy

[chrome palm]

getting-invited-to-keys-enjoyer?

ah yes lets get the yellow guy he can gouge the mobs

[warm marlin]

not on his previous raid characters of ww/feral

[chrome palm]

skyfury vs gouge hmm

which do i take

[warm marlin]

unironically 2 buttons

[fleet wharf]

but isnt like 80% of specs like 3 buttons now