subtlety

[swift tinsel]

I don't think I've done any of those

nice

[lilac stag]

Nice. Going to be interesting to see what prof tools do

Since blue are boe

[crystal bone]

https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/news/earn-extra-renown-in-midnight-by-completing-exploration-achievements/

[swift tinsel]

going inscription might be the play bc those mats are expensive as fuck

the ones they can make

[crystal bone]

those are the locations

[swift tinsel]

maybe less now that roots are coming down relatively

[crystal bone]

i finished up all 4 champ pieces last night thanks to those lol

[lilac stag]

Root I imagine are going to be like tinder box as soon as +8 hit

[swift tinsel]

oh yeah

was getting tinderboxes hand over fist once they upped them in delve drops

[spice matrix]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[winter coral]

Ohhh that’s what that was
I found the Silvermoon one by accident, got forced into a cutscene, and was so confused by what happened

[twin surge]

arent we supposed to get veteran gear from pinnacle boxes?

[alpine wraith]

think you get a max then they drop other things

dont remember the exact number

if it was 2 or 4

[swift tinsel]

pretty sure its 2, from what guildmates have said

[twin surge]

Yeah but the text says adventure gear. I havent taken any box yet

[swift tinsel]

or maybe I'm thinking of Prey

vet gear is probs with season start

everything gets bumped up one track iirc

[eager latch]

AoE/Mythic+ invests more heavily into mastery after getting haste to ~18% while single target

this sentence in the pin feels like a cliffhanger

while single target what

[warm marlin]

wants a bit more crit

[karmic harbor]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[karmic harbor]

guys what are you using for your uis

[fathom adder]

cdm + sensei

[karmic harbor]

i have one but its buggy as shit and moves around randomly is tilting me very much

[swift tinsel]

Arc UI/Unhalted/Wangbar

UI Triforce

[jaunty heath]

this vetaren gear is fake anyway isnt it

[swift tinsel]

just an ilvl bump

[warm marlin]

arcui/msuf/wangbar

and platy

[swift tinsel]

oh ye platy

I need to adjust the stacking with that, they bounce around a bit more than I'd like

didn't really notice it until running 0's last night and clicking on some frames got annoying

[valid spade]

anybody lvl 90 with close to 18% haste can tell me whats his Secret Technique cd is ?

[hollow wigeon]

Which champion neckless did you guys choose?

[lilac stag]

ArcUI & Platy

[hazy breach]

25/1.18 x 0.9

Aka ~19s

[valid spade]

thanks 🙂

[hazy breach]

But the haste is mostly for dance, not sectech cdr

[valid spade]

im currently testing a macro

#showtooltip
/cast [stance:0] Eviscerate
/castsequence [stance:2] reset=3 Secret Technique, Eviscerate, Eviscerate, Eviscerate, Eviscerate, Eviscerate, Eviscerate, Eviscerate, Eviscerate
/cast [stance:1] Eviscerate

what are your thoughts about that

works really well on target dummy

[deft lynx]

Do you guys notice ancient art procs on pull that are just straight up a lie?

[swift tinsel]

probs experiencing the premeditation bug

[hazy breach]

!premed

[wicked jolt]

There is a bug that makes it so while Premeditation is active you cannot get a refund nor spawn the clone from Ancient Arts. This is not something you need to play around, as using Ancient Arts of Secret Technique is about the same value as using it on a regular Eviscerate.

[alpine wraith]

you cant get a cp refund on premed yea

[swift tinsel]

since the buff blocks refunds

[deft lynx]

Ahh okay, thanks!

[valid spade]

🙁

[deft lynx]

Also, if I am in shadow dance and am about to reach max cp with 4 stacks of shadow techniques is it better to wait and see if the next auto procs a stack and send shadowstrike if so or is it more efficient to spend at 4 stacks and continue normal rotation?

[hazy breach]

No, dont wait

[solemn isle]

maximizing use of shadow dance windows is really important

every global gotta be slamming

[solemn isle]

brother we have like 3 buttons, just using a different keybind gotta be better than this

[slim aurora]

guys do we craft dagger right away?

[old spindle]

is it possible to sim the options? didnt seem so earlier

[deft lynx]

Wowhead says yes

[old spindle]

i did. i dont think its a misplay. its personal preference

your first craft is always going to be the dagger anyway. doing it now costs you recraft matts and the "recraft punishment" matts. thats it

[maiden oar]

i thougjt they removed the recraft punishment mats

[old spindle]

maybe. i honestly havent done enough research! let me see.....

you are indeed correct!

[drifting zinc]

Are we running assa in raid or is sub comparable?

[maiden oar]

wahoo

[slender kraken]

only god knows this

[dire ravine]

if haste is super crucial for sub, and verse=mast, why not haste mast?

[old spindle]

haste upto 18%

[dire ravine]

cuz that wouild then also make it viable for assa without respeccing it?

[old spindle]

im at 14 passively

[hazy breach]

It doesnt really matter

[old spindle]

i dont see us needing to stack haste outside of gems and ring enchants honestly

[hazy breach]

Ring enchants is for crit damage unfortunately

[old spindle]

the M+ simulation i think got haste on the weapon, but it also prefers haste over crit which is needed for raid

[hazy breach]

Just get to ~700 haste and then avoid vers and youre good

[dire ravine]

I dont know how. I cannot fit 2 sectechs in my dance window and im alr @ 450 haste. Seems like we're going to need a massive amount to get to that 18%

[swift tinsel]

Me with 10% vers bc it’s getting shoved down my throat

[hazy breach]

Youre never gonna fit 2 sectechs in dance

You dont get haste for sectech cooldown

You get it to prolong your dance duration

[dire ravine]

i mispoke, im by blades window

[hazy breach]

Well yeah, you need like 70% haste to fit 2 inside blades

Only like 45% with tier set, so youll get it during BL

But it doesnt really matter

[tepid trellis]

what is sectech cd with 18% haste

[hazy breach]

Around 20

19.x

[tepid trellis]

blades does get +4 sec with tier but yeh you aint gonna do it without bl

[crystal atlas]

So it's okay to craft with crit mastery then?

[dire ravine]

So I thought it was proper play to do that /everytime. we only want that in our bl window?

actually hold up

[hazy breach]

You literally cant

So

[dire ravine]

thats whyy this?

[quick marlin]

is there a world in which u dont craft a dagger cus u get mythic from 2nd boss

[hazy breach]

For extra globals of dance during blades

[solemn isle]

lines up with every shadow blades

rare for a trinket to do that

[hazy breach]

But mostly because theres no other trinket that is good

[dire ravine]

yeah, I didnt see any other good 130s

but that wont give us 2 sectec inside blades outside of lust?

[solemn isle]

if you macro the guidon trinket into your dance does the buff work to extend its duration? or does it have to be pressed half a global before?

[arctic heart]

what is the main downside to c raft a dagger now? we will use one anyways, even if we got a mythic will be our offhand for embelishment, someone can explain?

[hazy breach]

It does just barely yes with the tier set

[hazy breach]

If you get 2 daggers

So yeah just crafting is gonna be best for most people

[dire ravine]

ok ok, thank you.

[arctic heart]

@hazy breach thanks

[lilac stag]

SV hunters would like a word, maybe.

[arctic heart]

omg we share agi dagger with those idiots now

life used to be so simple

drop dagger, dagger go rogue

[dire ravine]

Sending hate mail for a year to my guilds sv if they swipe the daggers.

[lilac stag]

SV hunters are not idiots you dolt

[arctic heart]

they would be very mad if they can read.

or could or idk

[lilac stag]

They’re Dave’s brother in arms

Go back to assa channel with that hate.

Find some dog and cat picts to sooth your anger

[unkempt oak]

Haven't played sub since Shadowlands, but are people not bummed about the current state of Shuriken Tornado? Seems it's no longer a button to press and it's under tuned to the point that we don't even take it in M+?

[hazy breach]

The button has been hated for a long time

Poor synergy with the refunds (similar to how the last apex talent functions right now) that weve have for a while that just wastes a ton of CP

And just overall it was a fairly clunky and unsatisfying spell with its high energy cost and delayed effect

[lilac stag]

The world rejoiced when the tornado died.

[hazy breach]

But yes the new nado is a bit weak

[obtuse dirge]

so how much haste is too much?

[hazy breach]

Per the #subtlety-faq, also mentioned in the guides

[wet raft]

lol did they add the "Limit 1" to the blind tooltip when they removed the AoE component from it?

[hazy breach]

No the limit 1 has been the for a long time

[wet raft]

huh never noticed til now

[hazy breach]

Fairly sure airborne removed it

And it also hasnt been very relevant since they removed preparation

[wet raft]

ah that would make sense

[hazy breach]

Seems to have been added to the tooltip in legion for some reason

[wet raft]

no? 30% damage reduction to all targets for 6 seconds was pretty nice I thought

[hazy breach]

I mean sure, but blind isnt aoe anymore now

So

Its joever

[wet raft]

yea I saw they finally removed it yesterday

[swift tinsel]

does that make us the only class without an aoe cc ability

I can't think of any others

[hazy breach]

Hunters, they only have binding which technically is an aoe stun, but not really

[torn tide]

wait is there a glitch on it then? my blinds are aoe

[hazy breach]

They arent anymore

[wet raft]

Shouldnt be since last night

[torn tide]

oh last night okay

[swift tinsel]

ah didn't know they lost the knockback

[vestal escarp]

Haste spec

Haste spec

[hazy breach]

They also have a talent that makes intimidate hit 4 extra targets for a 1 second stun

But target capped aoe stops is kinda grief

[swift tinsel]

yeah

[vestal escarp]

Lets go gambling

[swift tinsel]

I def reflex-blinded and forgot it was gone a few times last night

was kinda cool sneaking around murder row though for the first section to interrogate tho

big utility

[tepid trellis]

wonder how long its gonna take blizz to hotfix guardian druid

[swift tinsel]

they're gonna get Goldeneye lasered on the 17th

I'm fully expecting those tuning notes to be the biggest clown fiesta ever though

[mighty citrus]

So we still have this not getting parried stuff?

[swift tinsel]

as trickster yeah

[mighty citrus]

Thank god

[nova cairn]

If it’s as long as aoe blind

Then I’m rolling bear

[hazy breach]

When are they making kidney ignore DR stealthi

So i cant get griefed by silly aoe stuns

[tepid trellis]

never

[hazy breach]

Rogue doomed to be useless in keys ig

[nova cairn]

Don’t you love it when the Tauren war stomps before your kidney

[tepid trellis]

would mean them actually making rogue have some sort of worth while util in keys

[nova cairn]

The unique util we had was aoe stealth

Then they gave that to mages

[hazy breach]

They also poped true sight on every mob in existance

[astral axle]

wdym we can have wonky tech where our perma tricks never causes mobs to actually reset on a wipe

[nova cairn]

Fr

[astral axle]

And then gave nightmeld potion to make it so other people can bypass truesight

[stuck arrow]

I'm still salty about them giving DHs smoke bomb.

[astral axle]

[swift tinsel]

the 17th is bringing back Stunning Secret trust ong fr fr

full duration

[magic coral]

idk why rogues can't have anything other specs do better. I feel every and standalone reason to bring a rogue is trivialized by some other spec also having something that is kinda better in everyway.

[swift tinsel]

and if you talent umbral they all get clone evisc'd

[tepid trellis]

we are just slowly going back to

needing tuning to lean heavily in our favor

[swift tinsel]

bUt wE hAvE pOisOnS

[sullen glen]

Sorry for the noob question - what makes blind an aoe stop? I swear it worked before now its only hitting one target?

[magic coral]

cuz everyone knows how good our non lethal poisons are compared to the buffs of other classes

[hazy breach]

I do believe numbing is underrated, but theyre just worse versions of warlock curses

[swift tinsel]

atro is goofy as fuck and wound is useful for maybe one mob a season

ye

and they're consistently making lock curses easier to apply/maintain

and atro is just worse-Devo Aura

[wintry heart]

Are our embellishments the same in raid and m+

[hazy breach]

Lock also has a 2 min cd that makes their next curse way stronger. 100% increased cast time

[magic coral]

maybe there should be rogue stones, and take something away from other classes that they have always had. I'm sure you hear some outcry from them. Give us a drink up me hearties for PVE

[uneven scarab]

Feral druid is slowly turning into sub rogue already

we are being filtered out

[swift tinsel]

yeah its fucking dumb lol

1min aoe lock curses plus 100% effectiveness cd

[lilac stag]

It was tooltip changed on alpha. AoE still worked. That changed this reset and it matches the tooltip now.

[swift tinsel]

it was joever when they stole Trickster for their Apex

although theirs actually looks cool af when it procs

[chrome palm]

assa has more burst than sub btw

at least it does with our current gear

[swift tinsel]

feral is 3rd alt, I'm sticking to leather daddy classes

[sullen glen]

wow so no more aoe blind?

[hazy breach]

Correct

No aoe blind

[sullen glen]

booooo

[chrome palm]

oh really

[swift tinsel]

we're simply too effective

[chrome palm]

blackjack is dead gg

no aoe stop

lol

[hazy breach]

Deserved tbh our m+ utility suite was way too strong

[swift tinsel]

yeah that's the pvp dudes territory now

[west tide]

guys i got 3 players in my guild to play sub rogue alts and they are 90 and loving it

the times are changing

[swift tinsel]

truly though, we brought too much on top of our oppressive damage

[chrome palm]

what do they love about it

[magic coral]

we can't have nice things. were supposed to be the selfish class but we don't get dmg compensation, just kicked in the nuts.

[chrome palm]

killing open world mobs?

[uneven scarab]

Unseen blade, basically stole secret with that high ass coefficient spell they have, and yeah actual visuals

[swift tinsel]

(its so fucking stupid I hate it)

[west tide]

they say “this a vibe”, they like doing it in m0s

the apex is the big thing

[swift tinsel]

frantic frenzy looks so fucking cool I love it lol

[uneven scarab]

Oh yeah k spree too

just give them every rogue ability

make feral a super soldier

[swift tinsel]

lowkey love feral though

leveling as it has been quite fun

[lilac stag]

Messer doesn’t believe anyone could enjoy this version of sub.

[swift tinsel]

sucks losing bloodtalons but what can ya do

[magic coral]

they need feral to be cool cuz lets face it 90% of haranir are going to be.......

[west tide]

me watchin my boys play sub

[swift tinsel]

also when the fuck is blizz gonna change dot icons to show their snapshot version after the buff ends and the bleeds retain the dmg bonus

[uneven scarab]

Ive asked 4 people to play it in my guild to give me their opinions but they all refuse

[west tide]

after a few m0s im like bro u wanna know how to do crazy dam…and i tell em about the apex st and coup aoe tech

[swift tinsel]

Tiger's Fury-buffed bleeds only have the snapshotted empowered icons during TF itself even though the damage bonus persists

[lilac stag]

Apex tech 3 targets

[chrome palm]

rogues very popular in my guild

youll never guess who the 2nd rogue is

[uneven scarab]

Wow thats literally my exact guild

Im the only rogue and the ONE other rogue character isnt even max level

[magic coral]

pretty much if you see another rogue you already know its a competition cuz the guild is only letting one in lol

[uneven scarab]

[uneven scarab]

just own the guild

[magic coral]

too much work

[west tide]

id run 4 rogues

[hazy breach]

I mean in raid theres literally nothing wrong with rogues

[chrome palm]

it just doesnt bring much

[lilac stag]

You had plenty of reasons to run 2 rogues on the bosses that have mattered.

[hazy breach]

Once youve filled up all the "mandatory" slots you can fill up all the rest with rogues and it wouldnt be an issue on most bosses

[lilac stag]

most guilds just don’t have that

[hazy breach]

Idk i dont feel like theres much to complain about in raids

M+ i get for sure

[swift tinsel]

nah we're usually chillin in raid

[uneven scarab]

id like to be mandatory one day

[swift tinsel]

often have fights or mechanics we can carry which is fun

[lilac stag]

log on mage

[chrome palm]

if you just bring an extra evoker or shaman

thats more movespeed which is always insanely good

[uneven scarab]

ive already crossed over

[magic coral]

Maybe im wrong then, Ive just rarely seen any and when i do they are usually gone in like a few weeks idk. it may be my weird perspective idk

[uneven scarab]

to the dark side

[chrome palm]

more dks is more amz

[low yarrow]

My Raid’s rogue swapped to Unholy so I’m filling in this tier

[uneven scarab]

[hazy breach]

Well yeah nobody plays rogue

[bleak night]

[uneven scarab]

I saw a single sub rogue leveling in the open world

And he had a sword offhand

its looking gg

[obtuse orbit]

How is sub feeling in the early m0s. Ive been slowly leveling my split and havent touched a dungeon yet

[bleak night]

Based

Make sword offhand great again

[low yarrow]

Sub is the new survival I guess

[obtuse orbit]

Lol was it me when I forgot to swap after being outlaw :p

[low yarrow]

Man I love survival

[uneven scarab]

[hazy breach]

New?

[uneven scarab]

I think surv is the new sub

[vale osprey]

I leveled as sub and it felt nice and fast tbh, just pulled massive packs and one tap them with a sectec

[low yarrow]

I see so many survivals in the last 3 tiers. It was a nightmare getting into groups before that in dragonflight.

[obtuse orbit]

Tried all 3 , leveling sin has been fun.

[low yarrow]

Now I never see rogues

[lilac stag]

Surv is sub with utility.

[uneven scarab]

true

[low yarrow]

Even more so now that daggers are meta on surv

[magic coral]

wut

[low yarrow]

I still hate that change, didn’t need dual wield

[magic coral]

why tf they using daggers thats our weapon

[hazy breach]

Idk hunters doesnt have much utility either

[vale osprey]

Are daggers on the list???

[bright beacon]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[lilac stag]

DW is amazing for Surv

[hazy breach]

Sure you could spec roar of sacrifice, but thats giving up 3% passive DR

[low yarrow]

Pet also gets absolutely popped with it

[bleak night]

At this point hunters have enough dr to spare

But yeah your pet does kinda get fucked

[low yarrow]

I would trade every bit of it for fortitude back

[lilac stag]

Just throw some bombs out.

[low yarrow]

If only they did damage

Raptor swipe go brrr

[lilac stag]

More than your dead pet

[crimson thorn]

How is sub performing in M0, ita decent?

[hazy breach]

And besides roar of sacrifice hunters have mostly the same shit rogue has in terms of utility, AoE slow, Singletarget stun, singletarget CC

[lilac stag]

Does it really matter?

[lilac stag]

Lust, Hunters mark

[low yarrow]

It feels good, higher keys it’ll have takedown for every single pull without fail which will be good

[chrome palm]

does hunter still have freedom

[hazy breach]

Idk id consider that damage, not utility, but sure

[chrome palm]

also bloodlust is huge util

[hazy breach]

Yes if you give up your defensive

[crimson thorn]

Lol, just curious

[west tide]

im forsure going to go dagger first craft as always

[low yarrow]

They stole that defensive from us btw

[chrome palm]

i would love to have bloodlust rn

[low yarrow]

It’s a passive 3% dr now

[bleak night]

You just give up 3% dr for it

Again with plenty to spare

[keen dome]

hell yeah it's the big dagger day

[low yarrow]

They need to pull the trigger and give hunter baseline lust. And give rogue a raid buff

[bleak night]

And freedom doesnt even kill your pet

[lilac stag]

Already crafted.

[keen dome]

and I didn't even make it intellect

It's the best victory I could hope for

[jaunty heath]

very serious group

[keen dome]

Join them and give them leather facts

[jaunty heath]

im did joined

but they dont know its my last dungeon 😄

[lilac stag]

We just did our not so serious m+ group. Rest of the guild tried to stack.

[keen dome]

I had a tank today that would pull one pack at a time, and when we asked him to pull more, he said he was practicing for M+. And then said he had tanking rules. And then had a temper tantrum.

it was very funny

[jaunty heath]

i did it twice today its super easy, but so many ppl doing no dmg making it long

[lilac stag]

I think we all ended up with 2pc out of the 4 dungeons

[keen dome]

I've done pretty well

[swift tinsel]

I got pretty lucky and got 4

[keen dome]

Multiple 240 pieces. Please ignore the chest.

[jaunty heath]

i did not get shit on my main

[swift tinsel]

and I can still get the champ pieces and not replace

[bleak night]

I got 4 pieces on my main

[lilac stag]

!newmain

[jaunty heath]

but have this massive hook 😄

[swift tinsel]

hoping to get dagger from bv

[bleak night]

And a wand i can't use without an oh

[keen dome]

I think I'd be close to 240 if I could replace the chest

The feather is annoying but I had nothing better

[swift tinsel]

I still have shitter 189 boots dragging my ilvl down lol

[west tide]

i forgot i could do that rn hehe

ill do it TONIGHT

[swift tinsel]

I got the miasara trinket

pretty happy with that one

[keen dome]

Yeah, I got it too but gave it to a buddy who wasn't getting any loot

Since I already had the feather

[lilac stag]

Which server are you on these days?

[swift tinsel]

I think we got 2 weapons in our group from the 4

which was pretty nice

[west tide]

im wearing that claw 237 and the rep trinket

[keen dome]

I had ridiculous luck

[swift tinsel]

lotta belts lol

[west tide]

malganis

[swift tinsel]

I got belt bracers ring and trinket

the big crit/mastery ring

[keen dome]

2 trinkets, 2 gloves, neck, belt, boots, cloak,

[swift tinsel]

holy shit

I'm hoping the luck continues when we run the other 4 tomorrow night

[lilac stag]

Send it to my Smith if you don’t mind. I could use the skill up “Scathic”

[low yarrow]

I had a tank in a heroic that would pull 2 mobs at a time. I MDed to pull the next pack and he vote kicked me

[keen dome]

lmao

[jaunty heath]

whats ilvl of crafted dagger

[keen dome]

He removed you from suffering

[lilac stag]

259

[low yarrow]

Best 30 minute vacation of my life

[jaunty heath]

i may just craft daggers on all rogues too

[west tide]

oh hell yeah i wont be on til like way later tonight ill see if youre on

[lilac stag]

Send and ping me. I should be around.

[wintry heart]

What stats are we putting on weapon?

[west tide]

ill prob go haste mast

[wintry heart]

I mostly do m+

So trying to get the middle ground

[west tide]

i think you still want haste as a m+er

[cloud swan]

Is it worth crafting a weapon this early before even doing M+ or Raid?

[west tide]

like to that recc number

[wintry heart]

Well no matter what we will use the crafted weapon in our oH

because of embel

[plush roost]

alright guys body type 1 or 2 panda animations

what wins

[hazy breach]

Big chubby

For sure

[lilac stag]

Shit dies faster now. Not sitting with sparks in bags. Highly unlikely you’re getting a mythic dagger week 1

[wintry heart]

Haste mast sounds likea good middle ground for m+

[lilac stag]

worse case you have a 259 OH

[cloud swan]

@lilac stag I just meant more for waiting until first vault incase you get unlucky with gearing after the 1st week. This is my first expac in a while so trying to figure out what the best course of action is for the spark

[west tide]

gonna make my m+ easier

[cloud swan]

I appreciate any info 🙂

[west tide]

thats why i always craft dagger first

[wintry heart]

@hazy breach What stats would you put on weapon for mostly m+ gamer

[hazy breach]

Not vers

[sand gyro]

hey, what are best first craft ?

[lilac stag]

You still need to be able to fill your vault for a drop

[cloud swan]

Haste has more value in raid doesn’t it for more uptime on SDance?

[keen dome]

sim them, but also, weapon probably

[lilac stag]

It’s always weapon

[sand gyro]

ty

[lilac stag]

don’t base it off m0 gear in bags

[cloud swan]

This is kind of off topic a bit. But does anyone know of a good site to find guild for this tier. Since I haven’t played in a few expacs. The guild i was in is giga dead

[scarlet tide]

WarcraftLog

[lilac stag]

Recruiting discord, raider.io, warcraftlogs

[keen dome]

Finally, the important stat.

[lilac stag]

Show leech

[tepid trellis]

[onyx flame]

i mean i would take a little aoe nerf and st buff

[vale pine]

nicuu

[lilac stag]

I’ll take no nerfs for sub based on m0 and heroic raid logs thanks

[vale pine]

our aoe is not that insane

[lilac stag]

we just have dance literally every pack in m0

[onyx flame]

i do like 30-50% more than every other dps every m0 i am going

[patent lichen]

thatn speaks more to them as players lol

[onyx flame]

xD

[spare hazel]

How many targets before I switch from eviscerate to black powder?

2?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety-faq message

2

[spare hazel]

Sorry didn't see it on the faq was looking at the wowhead guide. Thank you!

[tepid trellis]

fwiw that is single target

[vocal pecan]

Do I wait for the full animation of coup de grace for the damage? Or will the damage go off anyways while I hit shadow strike?

[sand quartz]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

maybe its because my guild groups are pulling extremely inefficient, but i never saw 30-50% higher especially sustained aoe dps

[hollow spear]

I don't see mm hunters and demo locks 🤔

[onyx flame]

Mostly looks like this

[tepid trellis]

there isnt one in this m0 split

[hollow spear]

Yeah I was kidding

I just saw some criminal shit earlier on the meters

[kindred narwhal]

did yall lvl in midnight as sub?

[hollow spear]

You're asking people in the sub channel, what answer do you expect? 😉

[sand gyro]

@keen dome when u say the weapon, u say the one with bleed proc ?

[swift tinsel]

did the 'ol sectech turbo nuke questing strat

[hazy breach]

No

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923898501529600/1478808703032365096/376636FE-3A18-47B0-B777-D21E19D57841.png?ex=69a9bf6d&is=69a86ded&hm=d65677a54176d65d01ae7072d5cdee5bddf8c0427cfac61fb353e4eecf022e70&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=212&height=241

[west tide]

i did my m0 with an aug and holy shit that thing is op

[swift tinsel]

like 3 mobs the entire questing experience survived a full dance

[uneven scarab]

The guy i usually raid and do keys with got his feral to 90 and said nah im good and decided aug was the next best thing

cant complain

That shit is insane

[west tide]

made me feel like thanos

[uneven scarab]

im telling you

Its insane

[west tide]

literally we were doing like 80-90k st

[uneven scarab]

Like s1 evoker levels

when that shit came out

[west tide]

and in aoe we were goin nuts

[keen dome]

No, just a normal dagger

[west tide]

and it was so funny cause in logs he was doing double our damage

[uneven scarab]

hopefully i get to do an arcane key with him today i gotta know

oh its damage is absurd

[sand gyro]

aait ty

[jaunty heath]

did you craft already

[hollow spear]

Stuff is kinda out of whack right now, ngl

But there's no meaningful content either, so pretty hard to judge

[jaunty heath]

we will have second craft by time m+ open and mythic raid

that rep trinket is so weak

according to robot *

[hazy breach]

Sim it on latest

Wasnt implemented until earlier today

[jaunty heath]

yeah same

im hookinh up

[stuck arrow]

You using weekly build or the daily build?

[jaunty heath]

latest

[lilac stag]

it was still shit this morning when I ran the sim

[jaunty heath]

its bad in ST tooo

[raven blaze]

whats the best enchant for this bad boy?

and are there temporary consumes for buffing your weapons like in classic tbc or no

[west tide]

yes there are oils and whetstones

i forgot what they are called exactly

[limber ore]

Is crucible of erratic energies bad or just not simming properly?

[lilac stag]

No one can afford stones right now

[limber ore]

I have a 2/6 sapling of the dawnroot simming 3% higher

[hazy breach]

Read the messages right above yours

[hollow spear]

He's not scrolling properly

[raven blaze]

am i understanding correctly that this is best?

[onyx flame]

for mh yes

[lilac stag]

nah. Just everyone that opens discord has a very unique and very individual question.

[onyx flame]

mastery for offhand

[lilac stag]

hands and enchants don’t matter

and you can sim yourself also

[raven blaze]

im new to retail and dont understand the sim website

[lilac stag]

there’s a how to on raidbots

[raven blaze]

you misunderstand

[lilac stag]

Would HIGHLY suggest looking at that

[raven blaze]

i already have the sim addon thing im just overwhelmed trying to parse the ui

[lilac stag]

on raidbots there is a how to. Also look up raidbots on YouTube. A lot of tutorials.

[raven blaze]

where?

i dont see a how-to

[swift tinsel]

Top Gear is your best bet

[hollow spear]

Big top gear lover

It always leads to me forking over extra for premium/epic though

[lilac stag]

Check their discord. Maybe moved.

[swift tinsel]

huh, turns out those articles are unhelpful

lol

[stiff spear]

should I trust top gear telling me I should still wear the reshi cloak?

[swift tinsel]

its strong

too strong

[west tide]

i replaced mine bro i refuse to wear old stuff

[lilac stag]

There’s also https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/how-to-sim-your-wow-character-a-guide-to-raidbots @raven blaze

[swift tinsel]

I took the 0.8% dps loss and replaced with a 230

[kindred narwhal]

in aoe situations do i wanna shadow dance and use shurkin/black powder?

[hazy breach]

!guide or the #subtlety-faq

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[naive crane]

Danse Macabre backstab no longer needed going into sd?

[hazy breach]

Nop

[naive crane]

The pruning was too much. Clean shaven.

[formal copper]

Why have they removed the symbols of death?

[jaunty heath]

this hurt my eyes

[chrome palm]

no point in symbols when dance has no cdr

[hazy breach]

The vast majority of the time you used symbols alongside dance anyway

So merging them is kinda whatever

[chrome palm]

just because you used them together

doesnt mean it was bad or didnt add anything

[formal copper]

yes... better yes

[chrome palm]

i liked symbols as a pacing mechanism for dance

[hazy breach]

What does it add if theyre always used together

[chrome palm]

it determined when you could use dance

or rather how often

[grand wyvern]

doesn't secret technique kinda do the same now?

[uncut oriole]

Didn't the cd of dance determine when you could use dance?

[uneven scarab]

Symbols makes sense, flag over goremaws still criminal though

[chrome palm]

in the worst way possible

[swift tinsel]

secret technique did that then too

[formal copper]

They've also removed the rupture; we no longer have any bleeding or dots =S

[swift tinsel]

it was sectech + X/Y

[chrome palm]

yeah secret did/does it too but of course symbols being the only minor cd with no cdr

[swift tinsel]

X/Y being sod and dance whichever was available

[chrome palm]

meant you had to plan dance around symbols

[swift tinsel]

you had 3x symbols to use

[hazy breach]

Idk removing flag and symbols had almost no impact on the rotation at all

[chrome palm]

well without flag

you dont preramp blades for add spawns anymore

or amps

am i wrong?

[hazy breach]

Correct

[chrome palm]

if i did dimensius without flag i would not use blades when i landed on the platform but just wait until the adds spawned

[uncut oriole]

Wasn't it the reverse? You had more symbols charges than dance, and could use that extra when needed, so when you used symbols was based off when you could use dance.

[chrome palm]

i guess it depends but on a fight like soul hunters for instance

i feel like symbols being a static cd was more significant

like you could play soul hunters without swift death for instance

[hazy breach]

But like, they clearly wanted to remove cdr, and with dance having a static cd

symbols does fuckall

[chrome palm]

well, thats the first thing i said

[west tide]

lowkey i like this new sub

[bronze turret]

It aint bad

[swift tinsel]

I'm pretty happy with it in the context of a paring-down

I enjoy playing around with apex in st and aoe and having it do a little different thing in either

whether intentional or not lol

with a few more tweaks I think it could be pretty banger

[chrome palm]

id be really happy if they let you choose when you use your cds and made rogue useful in m+

[formal copper]

I would have liked the new macabre dance (reformed flagellation) to be an active ability with a cooldown similar to Shadow Blades, dealing significantly more damage, and for the next three finishers, something like the Killing Spree from the old Combat Rogue, where you unleash a massive burst in a short period of time.

[west tide]

we have strong burst i feel like

[swift tinsel]

we do

[west tide]

just shadow dance thats our burst feels pretty decent

[muted girder]

feel like rogue wont be useful in m+ unless our dmg is giga busted or they give us a better/actual useful raid buff

[naive crane]

Sub is actually still fun to play. I had to stop playing uhdk because it was that boring

[west tide]

we have good aoe and good st, why do you think itll be useless in m+

[chrome palm]

rogue isnt even a class in m+

[hazy breach]

I mean you dont necessarily need a raid buff

[chrome palm]

rogue is basically "adventurer"

[hazy breach]

You just need to provide something

[west tide]

so far in m0 lol im outcranking most classes or very competitive

[swift tinsel]

or not have the thing you provide be trivialized by truesight

[west tide]

i didnt play beta

[hollow spear]

You won't be once you get deeper into pushing

[west tide]

so maybe ill find out soon

[swift tinsel]

yeah rogue is 100% fine for a good majority of key levels that most players encounter

[muted girder]

the least they could do is give us an aoe stop

[hazy breach]

I mean even if you do competitive damage

[west tide]

i push 3k and then i go afk bro

[chrome palm]

you could say this about literally any class in the game

[west tide]

i just want my mount

[swift tinsel]

exactly

[chrome palm]

of course you can play whatever you want in weekly 10s

[hollow spear]

3k is kinda autopilot

[chrome palm]

i was doing weeklies on spriest at the start of df s3

[west tide]

ya bro wtf im not pushing minigame

[naive crane]

It is but game gets stale after 3k+ queue simulator

You have to play meta dps or tank/healer to push.

[warm depot]

pugging and trying for push >3k is despair

[hazy breach]

Like if you do the same damage as an elemental shaman, but he has 2 aoe stops, BL, providing 2-5% dps to the entire group as well as more survivability+healing, dispells, mana to the healer.
Whereas rogue has numbing, shroud (mostly useless) and ST stops like kidney and gauge

[warm depot]

even if youre good ppl just want meta cuz its proven to work

[west tide]

yeah i get it

[warm depot]

also i didnt even realize they removed aoe blind LOL

[west tide]

if i was pushin why would i invite whats not meta

[chrome palm]

your 4 st stops are gonna be so good in m+ bro

xdd

[warm depot]

the tradeoff was shorter cd right?

[hazy breach]

I mean it can be

[chrome palm]

because no other class can do st stops

[hollow spear]

Aoe blind on a 24s would have been pretty good

[bleak night]

make gouge great again

[hazy breach]

Not needing a rotation on ST stops is neat

[chrome palm]

i was actually thinking

[knotty marten]

but isnt blind still aoe?

[lilac stag]

Sorry. Too many buttons.

[chrome palm]

warlock has 2 kicks i mean

[swift tinsel]

putting a caster out of commission for 8 sec quite nice sometimes

[hazy breach]

Not massive, but clearly not useless

[chrome palm]

2 kicks >>> 4 stops imo

[swift tinsel]

unless the stop you want isn't a spellcast

[naive crane]

2 kicks plus aoe stop

[chrome palm]

are you gonna spend 3 gcds in a row hitting stops on 1 target

that just sounds horrible

you are gonna be classic wow world pvping a single caster in a pack

[hazy breach]

You mean like we did one of the last times sub was meta? In DF s1

[chrome palm]

just hit an aoe stop though

i think the landscape has changed a little since s1 df

[hazy breach]

Sure if you have enough of them

[chrome palm]

like the classes sub wants to play with (warrior/shaman/monk) all have aoe cc

i think we can agree they gotta kill shaman

[grand wyvern]

the problem is if they want to play with you 🙂

[naive crane]

If you have friends it doesnt matter

[muted girder]

no one wants to play dungeons with rogues lol

[naive crane]

Queue boss is final progression system and yellow isn't allowed

[median nacelle]

any1 know how to remove the opacity see-through party frames? why did they make that the default

so weird

on default ui

[chrome palm]

i pugged last season but only because sub did some of the best damage in the game in m+

so if you arent that then gg

[muted girder]

also might be a hot take but i think energy should just get removed from sub. Would be a vibe outside cds being able to hit more than one backstab every 5 seconds

[hollow spear]

Let's focus on the actual issue at hand: who the heck thought it was a good idea to make the ancient art overlay black?

Half of the time I don't see that shit

[grand wyvern]

should have been purple

[uneven scarab]

Man if only we had a buff that other melees would like… hmmm something like savage combat or master poisoner hmm…..

[muted girder]

turn your spell alert opacity up, makes it way more vibrant

[swift tinsel]

not particularly vibrant

its black lol

[hollow spear]

I got it on 100%

If you're in a dark area

You're cooked

[muted girder]

lmao you just need glasses or a new monitor then my guy

[swift tinsel]

yeah lemme whiteout my screen to see a poorly designed overlay

good comms

[hollow spear]

Idk, if you have some void area in the center of your screen

[uneven scarab]

its a dark ass purple with black outlines

you aint seeing that at all in a dark area

[tough coral]

hey im new to playing sub. is deathstalker looking any better now that Midnight is out or are we all trickster all the time still?

[hollow spear]

Trickster

[chrome palm]

no its worse

[tough coral]

🙁

[uneven scarab]

[muted girder]

🤷‍♂️ havent had any probelms seeing it in any zone, even with inky potion on.

[hollow spear]

Idk what settings you've got your game/screen on, but it's atrocious in a lot of scenarios

Make it bright purple or sth

[tulip light]

did they hotfix aoe blind today? any other bugs fixed?

[hollow spear]

They've missed another chance to give us the Kyveza looks and implement that shit to make it look thematic

[graceful osprey]

Deathstalker is more purple than trickster so there’s that 🙂

[lilac stag]

The dance speed vs out of dance is near perfect right more. Makes short cds feel impactful instead of useless. Play outlaw or assa if you need to have constant energy with no pacing

[uneven scarab]

assa not pooling is so stupid

[lilac stag]

Focus on actual issues.

M+ utility. Awful visuals.

[uneven scarab]

no aoe stops at all

[pastel geyser]

i love hitting a 1k backstab every 5 seconds outside of cds

[hazy breach]

Me too, but unironically

[lilac stag]

I enjoy it as well

[uneven scarab]

I love it

[lilac stag]

I also like seeing my sht stacks increase.

[uneven scarab]

If you want constant dopamine outlaw is ur man

we be bursting around here

[versed hawk]

Ur backstabs are hitting 1k?

[hollow spear]

You're using backstab?

[versed hawk]

Anyone got the 18% haste? How's it feel?

[pastel geyser]

one sec we're becoming gloomblade bois

[lilac stag]

stop trying to homogenize everything because you don’t like the way dmg and distribution is focused on dance. The more outside of dance we get the worse dance feels. Fuck off with that.

[hazy breach]

I mean its not really a big feel difference

[versed hawk]

Ah thought it was a BP for SD

[lilac stag]

or go play tbc

https://tenor.com/view/rogue-warcraft-wow-gif-11008475980691198481

[limpid sage]

The current windows are the best sub has been imo

If only we still had our buttons it’d be S+ tier

[muted girder]

lmao it was just an opinion big guy, it aint that deep. i just think it would be cool. considering sin is the only spec that truly relies and plays around energy pooling. I like sub how it is, just think it would be kind of cool and different. idk who hurt you lol

[limpid sage]

Like last season sub gameplay mixed with current fixed dance cd would be peak

[lilac stag]

It was legit the best leveling we’ve had because of the windows

[limpid sage]

Ya sub is op in open world stuff + delves now

[swift tinsel]

Valeera is Brann-ing and running all over gods green earth with the Dance threat drop

[uneven scarab]

I mean, we essentially also do the same thing

we just pool sht

[swift tinsel]

they need to nip that in the bud

[warm marlin]

so when do you think we get our super cool new aoe stop that will replace blind?

[limpid sage]

Issue was that you essentially had a 50 sec cd on shadow dance that you couldn’t reduce because you just annihilated everything while in dance window

[warm marlin]

surely we are not left to rot with nothing right

[lilac stag]

It wouldn’t be different. It’s different now. It would be every other spec with flatter dmg.

[astral mountain]

Honestly this has been some of the most fun I’ve had playing sub. Just open world content doesn’t feel like a chore anymore and the dopamine from big burst windows goes hard.

[bleak night]

Stunning secret incoming

[swift tinsel]

I'm tryna tell everyone we're getting Stunning Secret but they don't believe

[uneven scarab]

AOE KIDNEY MAKES A RETURN IN MIDNIGHT

[warm depot]

i keep pressing 4 for rupture

and not seeing my gcd tick

😭

[limpid sage]

AOE kidney + the shadow eviscerates would be sick

[warm marlin]

temu nimble flurry

[lilac stag]

At times this week I swear our boy from the forums found discord.
🏄 🏄‍♀️ 👍

[limpid sage]

No naruto style

Just 8 shadow clones jumping a group of mobs

[astral mountain]

To keep rogue relative in dungeons without giving us a party buff they gotta add like a stealth skip worth doing in every dungeon 💀

[swift tinsel]

surely we get carried by our ability to disarm the laser tripwires in nexus point

[uneven scarab]

keep coping LMAO

[pastel geyser]

we get carried by cool visuals

[warm depot]

from the m0s i ran last night some of them had decent stealth skips, just dont know how they affect count

[bleak night]

Me when I jump over them

[swift tinsel]

shhh don't tell people about that

[bleak night]

There is no z axis in ba sing se

[astral mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/avatar-the-last-airbender-gif-5253984031697501451

[lilac stag]

The best part is this is the base spec. No tier propping it up.

[uneven scarab]

Wonder how hard theyll go with the s2 sets

[lilac stag]

Goremaw time to shine

[uneven scarab]

dont even dare speak that into existence

[bleak night]

God it would be so funny if they made a goremaws tier set

[hollow spear]

I sure am glad, because s1 tier is kinda garbanzo

[pastel geyser]

gloomblade tierset when

[lilac stag]

I would be so happy

[uneven scarab]

when ds is playable

[astral mountain]

S1: “small damage increase for burst windows “ S2: 4 charges of shadow dance, and we increase the base opacity for apex talent procs”

[uneven scarab]

so never

[pastel geyser]

is it still incredibly buggy?

[lilac stag]

I mean the talent needs the energy reworked. It would take us from 2 to 3 buttons and everyone happy.

I just look at current goremaws in the same way Sectech was when realz took over.

[uneven scarab]

yeah well realz was a miracle worker

[lilac stag]

Now Sectech is the focus

[uneven scarab]

tbf

[pastel geyser]

give me dfa back for single target

[lilac stag]

That spell was soooooooooo bad when he started

[graceful osprey]

Gloomblade should be baseline and if anything goremaw I think should be baseline and reworked to fit what we have now and just replace the goremaw talent with something different

[feral jolt]

i just want buttons to press that feel impactful like it feels as survival hunter

[swift tinsel]

like secret technique or coup

which we get to press more often than boomstick

[feral jolt]

coup doenst feel like that to me

only secret tec, nothing more

[swift tinsel]

me when it flurries

[hollow spear]

I hear it tho

[swift tinsel]

coup apex flurry

dopamine

[hollow spear]

And I feel it, when it messes up my flow of gcds

[swift tinsel]

true

probs never fixing that tho

[hollow spear]

It's not the impact we need, but the impact we deserve

[swift tinsel]

that's how I'm reading realz' reaction to me asking

its a feature

[hollow spear]

Which was?

[astral axle]

I think he did a 🥴

[swift tinsel]

I asked for them to fix the 1.2 sec gcd and he hit me with "🙃 "

[astral axle]

Oh that’s the one

[swift tinsel]

then started typing and never posted a message

got scared for a sec

[bleak night]

[astral axle]

Must’ve been automodded

[swift tinsel]

would be unironically hilarious

[bleak night]

he was doing that thing where you type out an absolutely vile email then never send it

to vent

[swift tinsel]

honestly I could see it lol

[astral axle]

“Listen here you little shit”

[swift tinsel]

or its just such a mess code-wise that it's a problem

could see either being the case tbh

[hazy breach]

Im surprised they cooked up a fix for the apex cleaving ngl

Its still labelled as a regular eviscerate

[swift tinsel]

honestly same

[hazy breach]

But somehow it still cleaves

And the other ones dont

[swift tinsel]

a very welcomed change tho

[hazy breach]

idk we take those ig

[swift tinsel]

small(large) victories

[pastel geyser]

is anyone spending their sparks this week

[swift tinsel]

overall pretty impressed with the bug addressing over beta

with how many apex had

they hit most/all the big ones

[hollow spear]

Cleaving apex is peak

[swift tinsel]

yeah I enjoy gaming it even if its neutral

adds a little extra layer of fun when you can storm -> coup -> bp

like I don't feel like sub is nearly as shallow as a lot of people are saying

shallower by comparison to tww, sure

but as I've said a bunch, that's literally every single spec in the game besides maybe bear

hell they even made bm hunter easier

[uneven scarab]

Some definitely feel way less clapped

[swift tinsel]

well yeah, you also have to consider the starting point they were at

[pastel geyser]

half of the sub buttons in tww were raw bloat

[hazy breach]

Its just storm > bp right? Just like in early DF

[swift tinsel]

did they have as much vestigial jank as we did

[uneven scarab]

arcane still has a good amount of conditions and stuff, still feels mostly the same

[hazy breach]

Where people said the spec was braindead, then somehow did 25% less overall than the people playing it well

[swift tinsel]

tWo BuTtOn sPeC

[west tide]

the game is fuckin PEAK

[hazy breach]

Its probably not gonna be that big of a diff now, but still a diff

[west tide]

!apex

[wicked jolt]

You cannot track the apex talents Ancient Arts through the cooldown manager. However they do show up via the ingame like THIS. If you cannot see them you must go into your settings and increase your Spell Alert Opacity. Some popular Addons (like ElvUI) disable these by default.

[swift tinsel]

yeah I have a feeling it'll be the exact same song and dance this season

[uneven scarab]

Im still gonna level and play my rogue

[west tide]

whats the command for the rotation rule for that tech

[hazy breach]

!aa

[swift tinsel]

!aa

[wicked jolt]

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only up to 3 targets.

Apex talent optimization (Trickster):

• Is shadow dance up? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Do you have 5 or more stacks of shadow techniques? - :ballot_box_with_check: Yes
• Is ancient arts up? - :x: No
  Use Shadowstrike (even if on full cp).
  Note: Only up to 3 targets.

[uneven scarab]

Wtf am i gonna do NOT GET on rogue?

[west tide]

wanna send it to my friends

ty

[swift tinsel]

jinx

[feral jolt]

i feel like speding cps to reduce dance cd would already fix a lot of stuff gameplay wise for me personally

[hazy breach]

Well they deliberately removed that

And dont want it

[feral jolt]

i know :(

[swift tinsel]

I'd rather they do something with sectech cd

[hazy breach]

They just need to do something about sectech cd

And its fine

[swift tinsel]

jinx again

[hazy breach]

Well, its fine as is now too, but it would be better if sectech wasnt hasted like this

[wind wharf]

spending to reduce CDs makes downtime extremely punishing, which is often pretty bad in raid

and it's also the same core mechanic outlaw already has

[willow fulcrum]

are there any must have macros this time around?

[swift tinsel]

a way to reliably get 2x supercharged sectech in blades would be nice

and not having to rely on the 4 extra seconds of blades from the s1 tier set bc then what do you do in seasons after that's gone

[pastel geyser]

we play goremaws when we get goremaws tierset obv

[swift tinsel]

that's not going to happen

[hazy breach]

Its the tierset+the trinket

You need both

(ie like 1.3k haste)

[swift tinsel]

yeah it needs to be mechanically possible with the spec's own kit imo

whether it be shot in the dark on blades

or 1 guaranteed per dance

maybe a goremaws rework but they'd need to address all talents in the bottom gate

rotten, finality, dark brew (why poison)

[uneven scarab]

dark brew man

with rupture gone its even more cooked

[swift tinsel]

it should be Banshee's Blight

[uneven scarab]

true

[swift tinsel]

make it a poison

its thematic

Instant Poison needs to be sent to a farm upstate

speaking of vestigial jank

[pastel geyser]

they should give sub a gun

[stuck arrow]

Make it poison rupture. 😂

[west tide]

what was the coup optimization in aoe with apex

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/nuh-uh-eric-cartman-south-park-s14e9-its-a-jersey-thing-gif-22863243

[half maple]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[hazy breach]

There was none

[swift tinsel]

ye you can just choose to apex coup in aoe for cool points

[radiant swift]

apex coup is not a thing anymore? only the st thing?

[swift tinsel]

ye you can just choose to apex coup in aoe for cool points

[dire ravine]

if its past 3 targets do we BP to spend, or do we storm to proc the apex?

[hazy breach]

No

[west tide]

ohh cool points?

i thought it was for a bigger burst or somethin

[swift tinsel]

its neutral

so cool points

[dire ravine]

I dont have any cool points to spend, and Im still perplexed :3

[swift tinsel]

its all just button presses

[stable plume]

Are we still doing the cancel aura macro for secret technique?

[swift tinsel]

nope

[west tide]

its neutral in like dslice overall or neutral in a small window

[wide wigeon]

Hey newer to retail rogue, is there a downside to having a non-dagger in OH?

[lucid jackal]

Large downside yes

[hazy breach]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[wide wigeon]

ty this helps

Because it still shows I can use all my abilities with a mace in OH

[quick plume]

as a server, why is it that we try to maintain both a "faq" page and these numerous seperate !commands that are clearly themselves frequently asked questions

[lucid jackal]

Because the FAQ is basically just a guide

and while it is useful to say "Just go read a guide"

there are very common questions that rather than just saying "read the entire guide and scour the entire page to figure out the answer"

vs just having a command to the really basic things

[quick plume]

is there a way to see all !commands

[lucid jackal]

!commands

Nope

[swift tinsel]

rip

[lucid jackal]

Uh idk actually

[left ledge]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[zenith mirage]

for raw dance(no blades)
last 2 globals
if ancient arts r up, ur always ending dance with AAfinisher->finisher instead of AAfinisher-> strike right? or is that a dps loss asw despite getting the next 2 finishers outside of dance if u end it with strike

[lilac stag]

People don’t read the faq and the regulars in here get tired of repeating themselves

[maiden oar]

last i heard it depends on haste value (preventing strike for final gcd of dance loss w/ 684 haste but gain w/ 200)

but this was tested awhile ago and im not sure what the truth is now

[bleak night]

[lilac stag]

Are you washed?

[bleak night]

even the npcs know it

man

[lilac stag]

My guy it’s a 2 button spec.

[maiden oar]

i think depending on fight constraints it might be very demanding to play it correctly

if they add sectech charges this probably changes

[lilac stag]

Are we back to charges copium like outlaw and AR?

[maiden oar]

oh i dont mind if we dont get it

bc i think untangling it will be fun

but charges are probably coming both bc the cdm has them implemented already and bc people will complain if we dont get them

[bleak night]

charges are sick

[lilac stag]

It’s just going to add a second to sblades

[maiden oar]

but i think id have fun optimizing sub w/o charges

knowing how long to hold sectech in a fight w/o convenient add spawn timings and managing the knock on effects of this on dance and coup will potentially be annoying / unintuitive

in pure st doesnt matter

[lilac stag]

It’s just cd planning, which is what we do typically on this spec

[maiden oar]

yea

just will maybe be less straightforward than tww

[lilac stag]

It’ll be more. No CDR

[maiden oar]

we will see!

but i have a hunch

[lilac stag]

Do I need Sectech for a certain point? Ok hold it.

Blades is good but not amazing

[fallow nimbus]

Do i craft the dagger now or wait and craft it later anyway?

[lilac stag]

I sent it.

[narrow shadow]

Is this the dagger we would craft? for example if I craft it now I could recraft until mythic with crests later on?

[lilac stag]

Going to do it anyways

May as well get use out of it now.

[spiral needle]

Charges as a bandaid is how sub winded up with 5 CDs with 4 different timers

[maiden oar]

im waiting until heroic week or 1 day before since i wanna see if embellishment tuning changes any

but im going to just send the raw spark then for delve boss hof

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah 259 dagger for m0, hc and m+ spam. Like come on

[maiden oar]

no point sending it during m0 week i think

just in case they buff murder row fish hook like crazy

or the row walker set

they probably wont but if they do i wait a little

[fallow nimbus]

Wtf is the fish hook?

[lilac stag]

Bleed dagger

[maiden oar]

hehe yeah

[fallow nimbus]

A craft too?

[lilac stag]

And if they do I’ve got 3 daggers instead of a dagger and bracers.

[maiden oar]

but instead of old sub where u held sectech to line up w/ ur other stuff u now hold ur other stuff to line up w/ sectech

[mighty hamlet]

Does 30k exp in like 3 1/2 minutes sound good?

[lilac stag]

No big deal

[maiden oar]

and sectech cd being so short means if add spawns are inconvenient u might have to make strange compromises

[spiral needle]

holding stuff for adds is something every spec deals with though

[maiden oar]

like if its a gain to hold sectech for an add spawn for like 9 seconds and u do it but then because u did it now ur dance charges are in a position where u could end up overcapping or sending a dance without sectech

yeah

i think its fine

[spiral needle]

well...dealt with, no idea psot great pruning

[maiden oar]

but they might add charges

bc of that

[hazy breach]

Not the previous iteration of sub

[fallow nimbus]

We need something for later patches, so this is where we will get sectec charges for dance

[spiral needle]

giving sec tech charges would be a bit too meaty though

you're just gonna hold them all for adds anyways

[lilac stag]

Fury did this with Bladestorm. You didn’t hear them needing charges.

[maiden oar]

personally im anti charges bc i think itd be fun to spreadsheet fights

[lilac stag]

you pick where your raid needs dmg.

[maiden oar]

but i wouldnt complain if they added charges

[lilac stag]

Not that complicated.

[hazy breach]

Giving sectech like 12+ cds and making it only usable in stealth seems like the best solution to me

[maiden oar]

i wanna do a tier with it as it is rn

[hazy breach]

Or something like shot in the dark

[maiden oar]

just 4fun

but i dont know if thats healthy or not

[swift tinsel]

I think shot in the dark attached to blades

[lilac stag]

It’s not needed

[warm marlin]

the point is that flexibility was a specific strength of sub that they said they wanted to keep and then shot our flexibility by not giving sectec charges

[maiden oar]

hehe

[lilac stag]

Half the sectec cd if used in blades. Instant 2 charges.

[swift tinsel]

the flexibility is the hasted cooldown

[lilac stag]

done and dusted.

[rugged scarab]

Sorry if this is a dumb question but is there a correct way to play around Danes macabre and in which scenarios you do certain sequencing or is it the same always?

[maiden oar]

but i think optimizing current sub will be maybe really funny on some fights

[hazy breach]

Forget it exists

Its passive damage

[fallow nimbus]

Yeah holding dance while its other charge recovers and having 1 free sectec per dance would give us all the freedom

[lilac stag]

I’m glad you’re excited. This is every tier.

[rugged scarab]

Thank you! 🙂

[maiden oar]

depends