subtlety

[tribal blade]

i love it

[lucid jackal]

lol

I just mean like

Sub will be fine in keys

It seems solid

[narrow shadow]

Yeah that's what I was asking, if the damage profile is okay

[lucid jackal]

If u wanna start talking astrolgy about damage profile then who tf knows what ppl will overvalue this season

[shrewd lantern]

People will really overstate prio

[chrome palm]

As long as shaman is in the meta we are chilling

[shrewd lantern]

when they arent doing key levels it matters

[lucid jackal]

put da fries in da bag

[tame terrace]

wait no

give me the fries

[shrewd lantern]

also mfs who justify pressing evis instead of bp

in sl

because “muh prio”

[supple pawn]

shi meant to put ww into the enjoy as it is now tier

[tribal blade]

the entire of SL was 1 big wHy aRe yOu pReSsInG bP

[shrewd lantern]

because im not doing title range keys

so who gives a f

[tame terrace]

dont press bp bc then how is ur mage gonna funnel if u kill everythign else

[tribal blade]

even in title range keys

[tame terrace]

!

[tribal blade]

i think it was kinda bait

[viscid stirrup]

dots arent, plus some outlying spells

[tribal blade]

the best success i saw were rogues doing BP spam until stuff started dying then swapping to evis to even it out

[tribal blade]

yeah those things aren't for sure

[tame terrace]

the target softcap on a singular damage event is 20 targets

[shrewd lantern]

oh yeah if you’re pressing evis on a massive group

you need your head checked

[tame terrace]

or at least thats what they softcapped most singular aoe buttons

[viscid stirrup]

dots arent a singular damage event tho, are they?

not connected to 20 targewts i mean

[tribal blade]

i did a title range NW with some people and they were like "holy shit you're doing the most dmg out of any sub rogue we've ever played with" because i chose to just spam BP

[tame terrace]

dots are applied to a single target. each dot is a differen event

[tribal blade]

and was topping meters

[maiden oar]

every guy in top tier has gameplay impact from apex except unholy and maybe surv (idk surv)

frost dks is minor though

[shrewd lantern]

yeah idk people are dumb dumbs

[bleak night]

unholys rotation does technically change slightly with apex

but its just like

the target count you press epidemic at

when its the upgraded version

[supple pawn]

survival does not change with apex

[tame terrace]

does feral have gameplay impact

[bleak night]

idk but it looks sick

cats flickering around you

[tame terrace]

does it? all my feral friends hate it

the whole feral spec

[tribal blade]

does sin play around apex pooling? i haven't looked int o that yet

[bleak night]

oh i mean visually is all

[tame terrace]

ye

the better ks

[bleak night]

from what i understand you basically just drop the stacks when they hit max and start again

but its not real pooling or anything

[narrow shadow]

Would be cool if we had a dot or something to do outside of Dance. Perhaps not rupture again but something more in flavor but something called like Eveningsword that does shadow damage

[bleak night]

and you ignore it in large aoe

[tribal blade]

rad

[maiden oar]

for enjoyed in tww/df i know sub/dh/fire/enhance/brew have gameplay impact

[supple pawn]

nightblade

[maiden oar]

so probably go on beta

[bleak night]

and i dont think you can track the stacks yet on cdm so

[tribal blade]

oh that's cursed

[maiden oar]

yeah

i figured more coil presses doesnt rly matter

[exotic steeple]

why are we shuriken storming and then seqtec? aarent we supposed to enter dance with full cp anyways?

on trickster

[supple pawn]

e

[shrewd lantern]

its called gloomblade

[maiden oar]

oh ok ive never played hunter

not my kind of class hehe

[supple pawn]

actually

it does have slight gameplay impact

for PL only

[maiden oar]

ah ok

[supple pawn]

PL survival is a 2 button spec 💀

[bleak night]

ok but boomstick

[supple pawn]

boomstick is barely worth pressing because its been nerfed into oblivion + had a bug fixed on it

bomb isnt used as PL, even with our 4 set that only buffs bombs

its dire

this is frostfire fire ignoring hot streak territory

[maiden oar]

evisc to get snd and storm because strike cant be macrod with dance and delaying gcds in dance is bad

its just bc no snd

[tribal blade]

1 day they'll just make snd a passive

it's actually kinda weird they went to prune specs and make stuff streamlined and didn't make snd passive

[exotic steeple]

okay but why am i not storming before the dance?

[tribal blade]

of all the things

[maiden oar]

premed

want fast cp in 1 global

u could just go strike evisc vanish strike blades macro

[exotic steeple]

oh ok so its a min max thingie

[maiden oar]

i was doing that in prepatch

[tribal blade]

you would be building up to 7 CPs to go into dance

instead of just dance+storm insta full CP

[maiden oar]

but i trust theorycrafters about storm being better

[exotic steeple]

understood thanks much

[vale pine]

you can vanish-strike there too if you want, or directly go from strike-dance-secret.
There is no diffrence in output, the above is just a reliable way to get slice and dice up before going into cooldowns

[maiden oar]

oh is vanish strike tje same

wahoo

i like that one a little more bc of keybind comfort

[tribal blade]

i'm gonna sit on vanish just in case UwU

[maiden oar]

yea fight dependent

if i need to break root i deal w it

[exotic steeple]

ty

[maiden oar]

and probably dance + storm macro into wait for global and press dance+blades+trinket+sectech macro

should be fine!

well not sure if wait for global is good

[exotic steeple]

i got a shadow blades+trink+13/14 macro, and dance+storm now

think im set with those?

[tribal blade]

i assume you jsut spam that macro

and should be fine

[maiden oar]

i like dance+storm / dance+sectech / blades + trinket + dance + sectech

[tribal blade]

actually dunno

[maiden oar]

if u wanna minmax 2nd dance in blades u can add dance+bp or dance+evisc

[exotic steeple]

thats too many for me

my brain too small

[tribal blade]

OR

you just stat haste to get to 0.4

for safety

[maiden oar]

hehe

[maiden oar]

no it should be fine i think blades on the premed storm doesnt get me anything

but mb i make a blades macro w dance storm combo

if that feels uncomfortable

[tribal blade]

my key presses in general aren't super fast so i think i just naturally don't GCD lock myself too much

[maiden oar]

i love to spam

[vale pine]

the only time you need to not spam is when using dance

[maiden oar]

yea

im practicing patience

[tribal blade]

right before using dance?

don't spam

[maiden oar]

yea bc if u press the macro before ur gcd is ready

[tribal blade]

yeah cool

[maiden oar]

dance doesnt start at the same time as a gcd

[tribal blade]

gcd lock yeah

[maiden oar]

and u explode

[vale pine]

to be fair

you also want to not use finishers before dance

[tribal blade]

you can actually kinda get around that by pooling a bit before each dance

yeah exactly

[vale pine]

so you already have the flow of

"uhh I AM GOING TOOOO use dance"

[maiden oar]

is bs spam still good

or do i just afk

[vale pine]

you can use builder

[maiden oar]

if i have 2 unseens and dance is coming ive been spamming it

ah ok

[vale pine]

its also only for a few secs before secret comes up

[maiden oar]

to get 3 and then disorienting to 4 and apex coup

but usually coup just lines up

[exotic steeple]

coup after shadow dance only ? in aoe

[viscid stirrup]

for slice n dice i think. prob pretty minor. also your first ss out of stealth has 100% crit, so to apply poisons?

some more than others tho. dots are a big example

[maiden oar]

no

[exotic steeple]

so always when procced?

if no extra cp from dance for sq

[viscid stirrup]

#showtooltip
/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

[exotic steeple]

oh nice

can i replace my bp with that

in any situation

[viscid stirrup]

yes

[exotic steeple]

cool ty

[viscid stirrup]

is it 100% optimal? idk, but it works, and evic gets replaced automatically anyway

[exotic steeple]

saved me reacting to it

useful

think im set up for for midnight

hyped

[viscid stirrup]

its great in m+ since youre spamming bp 70% of the time anyway

im sure title player could get a bit more out of it if they keybound it, but yolo

[exotic steeple]

saves me a missclick and some couple milliseconds of brain thinking to react to it

ill gladly replace

https://outplayed.tv/world-of-warcraft/aJEPGo

[plush roost]

I think that macro will gried you since we want inetnionally proc apex on coup in aoe

[exotic steeple]

but if we arent saving the cdg when its procced, i can just use evis instead of the cgd+bp or no

or will there be a scenario where we hold on to it and bp during the proc

[native zodiac]

How do you intentionally do this out of curiosity, just not finish until it procs?

If you have coup up that is

[tepid trellis]

CDG replaces Evis on your bars so only way to keep it is to use BP naturally

[exotic steeple]

so there is a scenario where we hold on to gcd

[tepid trellis]

also fairly sure the minmax for doing what charrend is talking about is gonna pretty much irrelevant

on decent amount of AoE targets its gonna proc the Apex anyway

most of the time

[native zodiac]

Ye tbf when i played beta it felt like the apex talent was perma up in dance

[tepid trellis]

cuz it pretty much is

[frigid prawn]

What am I supposed to do when the tank is gathering mobs, when I was applying rupture on mobs before while gathering?😄

[tribal blade]

in 7+ target aoe should be yeah

[tepid trellis]

press BP cuh

pad your heart away

[frigid prawn]

So just spamming storm + bp, when mobs are gathered I go into cds right?🤔

[short radish]

detection

[tepid trellis]

yup

[native zodiac]

P much

[haughty mural]

you can also press one evis at the start to get S&D going

[tepid trellis]

or if you know you have 11+ seconds until its gathered

send a dance

big stonks

[frigid prawn]

Thank you, helped alot🫡

[vestal escarp]

Gm

[rocky flame]

I know we are like a day away from midnight or sum?.. but I CANNOT figure out what I want to play. I played sin for the longest time, switched it up with shaman since SL.. I think the flavour that subs got with the shadow clones is super cool, that being said, I heard yall got mega pruned?.. While I know fun is subjective, would you say Sub in raid/m+ currently has a fun/satisfying gameplay loop? I am really struggling this expansion to find something that I am not just gonna zzz on.

[alpine wraith]

just try both

[tepid trellis]

tbh the gameplay loop havent changed that much

you just lost "fluff" really

[alpine wraith]

you might like the new simplicity more

[tribal blade]

i think sub flows quite nicely now

lost a ton of clunkiness\

[void ocean]

morning Kings

[alpine wraith]

it is more cut and dry and even being basic is good

[spiral needle]

It's pretty easy to try whatever in midnight since you won't need to spend any time setting up WAs

[rocky flame]

Word, preciate it. Been awhile since I was this confused on what to play. Everything feels so new, and ofc new xpac, so every disc is doomposting that their spec is the worst ever on the entire planet.

[alpine wraith]

no more 5 cds with diff timers

for no reason

[rocky flame]

yeah wasnt a fan of sdance, symbols, shadow blades, flag, all being big buttons, which I guess is good seeing as I think most of those got nuked..

plus shadow clones are kinda cool 😮

[chrome palm]

sub didnt get any new gameplay despite the cds being removed

so it feels quite bare compared to other specs IMO

[tribal blade]

this is also true

[chrome palm]

when i play other specs i feel like i am "busy" doing something but sub youre basically waiting on shadow dance to do damage

[torn tide]

so true its just a waiting game until u can do damage

[hollow spear]

Idk, I still feel like pressing the buttons we lost wasn't really doing anything

Maybe rupture spreading

But that wasn't really entertaining either

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

[fossil forge]

rupture was flavor

With all the extra buttons

Now is like clean chicken no seasoning

[vestal escarp]

I noticed it feels better to play in situations under stress

[vale pine]

clean raw chicken

[vestal escarp]

Whoch to me is insane added value

[tribal blade]

i agree yeah

[chrome palm]

dodging nk beams in my burst window was the most fun i had in a raid fight that i can remember

[vale pine]

what we lost was mostly dynamic

and with that decision making

[fossil forge]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-gif-20211479

[vale pine]

there is now one simple decision

and not a lot of planing

some like that

[fossil forge]

Average saladbar fight trying to not miss a single gcd

[vale pine]

others don't

[shrewd lantern]

they made my chicken british

fuh

[vestal escarp]

They could have made it taste bad

[fossil forge]

Plain chicken is better than bad chicken

flavors can always be added

[maiden oar]

yea it went crazy

[chrome palm]

dagger in my heart when they said they wanted fights to be less dodging

[maiden oar]

[native zodiac]

Rashok week1 was also a banger for that

Sadly sub was braindead back then

[vale pine]

think the current version is the simplest we ever had

especially when using a macro for bp + coup

[glass berry]

How good is sub gonna be in m+. How much dmg will it do compared to the other meta dps

[vale pine]

subtlety will do 3 times the damage of every other spec in the game in all content

trust me on this

my fortune teller of choice promised me

jokes aside

you ask for a comparison in the future, with too many unknowns

mythic+ will only open once mythic raid releases

so its a month from now

tuning won't happen before the raid releases

and people won't form a mythic+ meta before the world first race ends

so what you realistically ask is

how strong a spec will be in 2 months in the future

in an enviroment nobody has high experience in

i hope i highlighted why we can't give you an answer of "how good" subtlety or for that matter any spec in the game is

in Midnight season 1 after a meta formed

[iron ibex]

@teal coral Since we are set with Tuning till March 17th. Is Sub or Assa right now for raids?

[void ocean]

42

[vale pine]

if we go from simulations

[teal coral]

probably sub

depends on last boss timings I guess idk

[vale pine]

outlaw does the most on paper
subtlety is slightly ahead of assassiantion

[teal coral]

if last boss randomly whips out an execute phase

then probably assa

[void ocean]

welcome to the lair of forsaken, sir (sub channel)

[iron ibex]

yeah Assa Execute is Top tier!

[vale pine]

tho heroic week tuning probably does not matter

so things can change quickly once we get the first tuning pass

subtlet has in general the advantage of a more bursty damage profile, which can help on some fights

it would be funny if we ended up playing outlaw tho

[tulip light]

Very short kill timers: Veiltouched → The First Dance. - this is from the updated wowhead guide. do we use first dance in m+ as default since we get more time out of combat in general?

[vale pine]

you look at the raid build

[tulip light]

ye just noticed... its hard to read a full article ...

[vale pine]

the reason we use tfd in m+ is the higher frequency of restealths and ability to proc it

in raid it only procs once

but in m+ you get way more value out of it

[tulip gorge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

@tribal blade @keen dome @chrome palm
I have this theory about m+ viability, where subtlety usually ends up high early on but is designed to fall behind long term.
This is because key levels are not super high initially, so packs die quickly, this is ideal for secret and dance burst damage.
However sustained AoE is typically not tuned that well, which means once we get further in the patch and packs survive for longer, we fall off noticeably.
Maybe this changes in mindnight because bp does good damage.

[viscid stirrup]

seems spot on. its a capped spec vs a uncapped spec

[tribal blade]

i think with how new sub works we'll have better sustain

so maybe this lends well to higher keys, charrend would know for sure because he's been living in high keys on beta

i think the awkward thing with sub is how you really REALLY don't want to hold sectec ever

[vale pine]

we also seemingly lose one benefit

[viscid stirrup]

its like a 6-8 soft cap spec. wont be able to compare with anything soft capped and above avg tuned

[vale pine]

let me show you what i mean

[tribal blade]

which causes some discomfort when you need to hold for any reason

[vale pine]

the stat profile in m+ is kina

"get some haste, then put as much in mastery and crit as possible"

vers was usually one of our dominant stats, giving us extra survival

[tribal blade]

yeah we're losing that

but with high enough tuning it (in general) won't impact your spot in the meta

[viscid stirrup]

thats an generous looks of wanting anything but haste and mastery lol

[vale pine]

you kinda

[tribal blade]

and i think sub can't be considered a squishy spec even losing all the vers

[vale pine]

"has it mastery"

• YES - NICU
• NO - BOOOO

gearing decision for m+/aoe

[tribal blade]

i think the biggest thing that'll affect sub in terms of M+ is utility and raid buff

[vale pine]

thats rogue in genral

*general

aoe blind still exists technically

[tribal blade]

that is rogue in general yeah, ALTHOUGH sin might be excempt if it's tuned high and does such high prio

[vale pine]

but outside of that its just "speedshroud can be nice"

[keen dome]

Ye, I def think there's something with that theory. I'm not sure if it's designed that way in-so-much that M+ design, class balance, class design are all discrete things but

ye

[vale pine]

think blizz does not want prio damage

[keen dome]

Except for when they do

[vale pine]

so i would be surprised if sin is allowed to do high prio

[tribal blade]

i would hope they tune it down too yeah, but i'm not sure how they would do that

[vale pine]

it was the one reason shuriken combo was purged without a hessitation

and subtlety did absolutely no aoe back then

[keen dome]

And then they had to nerf Sul anyway

[vale pine]

so there was a high trade off

if a spec does funnel in a similar fashion

and does aoe

i would say, thats a easy way to get the funnel purged in a similar fashion

[tribal blade]

i'm 100% on board with you on that one, i think it's criminal how they took that from sub but gave it back to sin

[slate marlin]

Gave it back to sin while also doing giga aoe*

[vale pine]

its i think a design problem

subtlety had a very clear design with trade offs

but dragonflight/tww, did need to increase talent diversity

they often did so by just adding niches without any consideration for that

[tepid trellis]

sub also just havent been tuned good for AoE in a long time

it only does good in a 30 sec vacuum

wich what makes it really good for raiding fwiw

[vale pine]

it was tuned decently well in s1 df

[tepid trellis]

completely different damage profile

[tribal blade]

S2 DF it was also tuned very well

[vale pine]

thats true

the damage profile was an outlaw profile back then

[tribal blade]

had it not been for aug sub could have been a meta spec

[tepid trellis]

yes, its easier to tune for AoE if you deal dmg pretty much constantly

[slate marlin]

Aug deserves all the hate it can get

[tribal blade]

is that our dmg profile in keys now?

[slate marlin]

I hope they arent meta in midnight

[tribal blade]

it's much flatter than before i imagine

not DF levels flat, but not TWW bursty

[tepid trellis]

well its funny

its still somewhat bursty

but the dmg is more in dance

[tribal blade]

haha classic

[tepid trellis]

and not blades

[tribal blade]

that's alright then though because we're in dance quite often

[tepid trellis]

so its more "constant" than before

[tribal blade]

yeah

[vale pine]

think the removal of flag is the main diffrence

flag was way more impactful than blades

[tepid trellis]

well yeah they took some power from our 90 sec combo

and just baselined it into dance

[tribal blade]

it makes playing sub in keys less sweaty though

playing sub in TWW keys required you to put a lot of thought into where you were sending

[slate marlin]

Yep

[tepid trellis]

yep

i enjoyed it quite a bit

but with bad tanking it was miserable

[slate marlin]

It was very very fun tho

[tribal blade]

it was pretty fun going into a pull with 18 stack prism

and just ascending

and listening to my guildies freak out in disc

[vale pine]

can only +1 this

[slate marlin]

Big momma huge pull with 18 stacks

[vale pine]

bad tanking or bad routes

[slate marlin]

60m dps brrrrrrr

[tribal blade]

oh yeah it was so bad

[slate marlin]

Ele shaman in shambles

[maiden oar]

yea every time someone complimented my dmg in m+ id think they should be complimenting the tank instead

[slate marlin]

Then u go into a big pack with 20 seconds for your cds and you were giga fucked

[maiden oar]

ty genius tank players

[slate marlin]

What i hate is we still need skyfury

[tribal blade]

they need to do something about reliance on skyfury

it's not good

[maiden oar]

delete raid buff in m+

wahoo!

[tribal blade]

i would be so down for that

[slate marlin]

No joke im considering kidnapping someone and forcing them to play shaman

[tribal blade]

because the raid buff stacking meta is super toxic to everyone who doesn't have a good raid buff

[slate marlin]

Or give us scrolls back

[tribal blade]

my ele buddy in my guild is in a 5 stack key group with me UwU

[maiden oar]

im probably just going to be a fotm guy for keys

so sad so sad

[vale pine]

i have the solution

[slate marlin]

!ban @tribal blade

Go brag somewhere else

[wicked jolt]

@tribal blade has sucessfully be banned.

[vale pine]

(its a joke, nobody was banned)

[tribal blade]

holy that scared me for a sec

[slate marlin]

Omg🤣🤣🤣

[maiden oar]

he has be banned

[slate marlin]

I thought koffing was lurking

And als0 took offense

[tribal blade]

i sucess b banned

[vale pine]

ye, i typod

[maiden oar]

walked the plank...

hehe

sounds like a pirate

#outlaw

[vale pine]

but the solution to skyfury dependency is easy

we just joink skyfurry and give it to rogue

[slate marlin]

Or normalize sht

[tribal blade]

call it something with slice and dice in mind

[vale pine]

and give the targeted damage reduction to shamans

[maiden oar]

so cool

[tribal blade]

the dmg reduction makes more sense on shammy

than rogue

[vale pine]

it actually has

wasn't there a raid buff on rogue in wod or before?

[tribal blade]

i think crit buff

iirc

[vale pine]

that or a damage buff

i mean

[tepid trellis]

we used to have phys buff

[vale pine]

we had a nice "all enemies in raid can't parry" buff

[tepid trellis]

before monk came

[vale pine]

they moved the physical damage buff to monk

[maiden oar]

wwhgat

that actually makes me mad

[vale pine]

it made sense back then

because rogue was used as a mechanics pitch

feint, cheat death and cloak was often used for raid mechanics

you could sometimes just add 2-4 rogues and simplify the encounter for everyone else

monk at the time had nothing comparable

[maiden oar]

ok they should bring that back

[bleak night]

now cheat death is used so i can survive whatever wipes us and vanish so i look better for living

[vale pine]

so blizz moved the physical damage buff to them

[bleak night]

[tribal blade]

PVE SMOKEBOMB

but not as crazy as los tech

[vale pine]

smoke bomb was removed for the same reason warlock lost metamorphosis

[maiden oar]

give me damage raid buff

[tribal blade]

the los smokebomb in pve was busted

[vestal escarp]

Darkness

[tribal blade]

you don't like telling a key group you have atrophic and they either say "what's that" or "oh yeah i forgot that existed"

[vale pine]

we have smoke bomb at home now (darkness)

[maiden oar]

i dont like it one bit

[polar wharf]

Boys when are we rogues gonna be meta again ahh copeage😩

[vale pine]

i have a 2 step plan to get everyone to play rogue

[tepid trellis]

i have a 1 step plan

overtune it

done deal

ty for coming to my ted talk

[tribal blade]

1. no dmg raid buff
2. no lust
3. no bres
4. no utility
5. no aoe cc

[vale pine]

• infiltrate blizz
• make them do a animated series with the rogue MC they showed in the trailer

[polar wharf]

Never it is

We play FOR FUN

[vale pine]

🤯

so we want rogue to be treaded like DK for DF/TWW ?

[lilac pendant]

Whats the best spec with 0 haste like literally

Subtley feels so bad

[maiden oar]

sin

[tepid trellis]

none of them

[vale pine]

^

[maiden oar]

also none of them

[tepid trellis]

all feel like shit with 0 hase

[maiden oar]

but sin will feel the least bad

[tepid trellis]

haste*

[vale pine]

i did not mind low haste as much on subtlety 🙊

[lilac pendant]

Sin is

Its just for this days till i get some haste

Not planning on weird stuff

[lilac stag]

Recraft 2 pieces.

Fixed

[slate marlin]

Just give rogue a haste buff

Normalize the class with skyfury

And call it a day

[vale pine]

what does normalizing mean?

how would that work

[tepid trellis]

same as does for ret palas

the bonus hit from sky fury just doesent work

for generation

[vale pine]

oh

do they get an extra buff or sth?

or is it just a 0% dps raid buff

[tepid trellis]

well its still auto attack dmg

and mastery

so they just care less about it

[vale pine]

fair

[slate marlin]

Make it so extra skyfury attacks dont give sht is what i mean

Having a raid buff be like 6-8% is nit healthy at all

[vale pine]

i just was not sure how you normalize the extra attack

[slate marlin]

Fair enough

[vale pine]

because what i would have wanted to be normalized

and even asked for in the past

was weapon speed

we would still only have daggers on our loot list

but the raid pool for weapons would be higher

[slate marlin]

That would be great

[vale pine]

the problem is, its not easy to normalize now

[slate marlin]

You could also craft a sword for outlaw and go sub if you needed

[vale pine]

i made a calculation back in bfa or sl i think

how you would need to adjust the proc behaviour and rates for sht

to get almost the exact same result for daggers/1h

its just now a lot more complicated

e.g. because of shadowcraft

[viscid stirrup]

would you guys be mad at me if i said i think shadow dance sucks now?

[tepid trellis]

yes

go back to assa

[lofty path]

https://tenor.com/view/dispatch-dispatch-robert-dispatch-invisigal-invisigal-dispatch-game-gif-12987014369729143820

[viscid stirrup]

shhhh

ok, real talk, i never played sub until prepatch, and i think its fun

[tepid trellis]

personally it was more fun before the pruning

[lofty path]

I'm interested to see how it is in midnight, I've taken all of prepatch off

[tepid trellis]

i enjoyed the setup for bursts

[lofty path]

I'm going to miss the setup

^^^

exactly stealthi

[tepid trellis]

its very one dimensional

now

[alpine wraith]

bfa sub was peak fun but sad numbers

wod and mop too

[viscid stirrup]

this is what i mean. i just said i liked bleed spreading before prepatch, and the sins bit my head off!

[lofty path]

except for that one boss in the first tier

[alpine wraith]

this dancening since legions sometimes makes me sad

[tepid trellis]

it still has somewhat the same dance flow in terms of pressses with/inbetween cds, you just do alot less thinking and lining up between cds

which im gonna miss alot

[lofty path]

https://tenor.com/view/you-cannot-ragebait-me-you-cant-ragebait-me-you-cant-bait-me-ragebait-cat-gif-14310490768336433957

[vale pine]

i can only echo what stealthi mentioned, i think having more rotational decisions was a benefit

[alpine wraith]

tbh spreading bleeds would be funnier if they did dmg

[viscid stirrup]

you still have to look at your cds tho. idk how it was before, but if you press dance on cd, youre fucked

[alpine wraith]

instead of being a mechanic to spam envenom

[vale pine]

its a weird situation

[alpine wraith]

actually

[vale pine]

where people got upsed when bleeds did damage on subtlety

[tepid trellis]

well its scripted mostly so not really i guess

[vale pine]

so bleeds on subtlety got nerfed

[tepid trellis]

2 with blades - 2 inbetween - 2 with the next blades

[vale pine]

and then people who play subtlety feel like rupture is bad/redundant

[tepid trellis]

repeat

[maiden oar]

im sure im going to be a really big fan of whatever mechanic they add to sub partway through midnight

surely its coming

[viscid stirrup]

i guess on raid fights, but in keys? or if you screw up? which we all do

[maiden oar]

i miss rupture

[lofty path]

I miss rupture purely for how it gave us a slight optimization in danse macabre

it's really those little optimizations I'm gonna miss the most

[tepid trellis]

we havent done that

in foever

lol

[lofty path]

oh yeah, you're right

[tepid trellis]

you like an expansion behind

[lofty path]

I'm tripping

[native zodiac]

Wasnt that a thing last time in amirdrassil

[tepid trellis]

ye

[maiden oar]

i just wanna do setup outside of dance or blades

[lofty path]

[alpine wraith]

2 expansions behind

that was df

[lofty path]

I did play sub in S3

[alpine wraith]

XD

[native zodiac]

Shadow rupture my goat

[lofty path]

okay

I am just tripping due to being tired

[alpine wraith]

dont worry get in me on the comforter i still dream of MoP and WoD sub

[maiden oar]

wod classic soon?

[lilac stag]

@tepid trellis enjoys spreadsheet dps gaming. His absolute favorite challenge. Especially when timings change weekly

[maiden oar]

so cool?

[alpine wraith]

nah it was good while it was current

first 2 tiers were quite bad for sub

[maiden oar]

id actually play wod sub i want to fight blackhand that fight looks fun

[alpine wraith]

well you were lkely on tank kite duty

so you did circles then went and killed some archers

[lilac stag]

Garrison Gold Farm simulator was BiS

[alpine wraith]

then got imapled twice on last phase ans died

while people did dmg

[maiden oar]

no...

[alpine wraith]

hey we were very good at that

[vale pine]

the entire "spreadsheet gaming" problem only happend for one reason

[alpine wraith]

same as killing machines in darkfuse or operators in garrosh

[viscid stirrup]

they he should like a dynamic haste based cd system even more? its stacks on stacks

[vale pine]

the insistence of keeping major cooldowns on conflicting timers

[tepid trellis]

cuz i had too much free time

xD

[vale pine]

haha that too

but like

if we had no 30 sec gap in cooldowns

i wouldn't needed to spend eons of time optimizing the apl

[tribal blade]

new spreadsheet when UwO

[lilac stag]

I miss you dust

[tepid trellis]

give me 4k dollars

and ill make you one

[vale pine]

and you would have a super simple cooldown use pattern

[tribal blade]

that is a LOT of dollars

[lofty path]

that's definitely more than $5

[tepid trellis]

yeh well im expensive to rent

[lofty path]

I know that much

[vale pine]

dust was in a sense a example how you can fuck up design

[slate marlin]

Wouldnt the spreadsheet be use dance and sectech every 20 seconds?

[tepid trellis]

but in fancy graphs!!!!

[vale pine]

because the idea behind dust is good

[lilac stag]

My timeline is off. Did you get new puppy already?

[tepid trellis]

yeh 2½ weeks ago

[tribal blade]

ironically dust would be perfect for this new iteration of sub

because you could cast vanish to get sectec back for 2nd dance in blades

[lilac stag]

ok. That’s what I thought. All of the sudden I’m wondering is it happening soon.

[vale pine]

i think the worse thing on current sub is secret

[slate marlin]

Okay well

[vale pine]

using dance without it just feels off

[slate marlin]

Dont tell us then

[tepid trellis]

it just shouldnt have a cd and just be 1 time use per stealth

[native zodiac]

Just make it so secret is always up in dance and has no cd, 1 time use in dance

[vale pine]

yep

either no cd

or a very big one

[native zodiac]

Would fix everything

[vale pine]

and make it behave like shots in the dark

so you get a charge to use during dance

[maiden oar]

im down for shadowdust

[tribal blade]

i'd prefer it if it wasn't dust, but prep

so it doesn't put power back into vanish

[maiden oar]

sure

[vale pine]

tier set idea

[maiden oar]

but itd be cool to have 2 charge of vanish

i like that talent

[vale pine]

all your evis casts become secret casts during dance

[bleak night]

[tribal blade]

that would be bonkers

[bleak night]

imagine all the clones

you know

if you could see them

but imagine

[vale pine]

haha

[slate marlin]

Clone visuals should be amazing

[tribal blade]

fair!

[slate marlin]

So shadow priests cry apparitions are shit

[tribal blade]

just yoink kyveza animations

so easy

it's right there

[vale pine]

right we need to lookmaxx shaodw clones

[lofty path]

this is a small indie company remember, making good decisions isn't possible yet

they're not quite a multi dollar company yet

[maiden oar]

also its ok for sub to use vanish offensively i think

if any spec does it

[tribal blade]

would make sense

i just get so sad losing vanish utility

in keys, in raid it's w/e

[lilac stag]

it’s ok until you realize it’s really strong defensively and sucks to use it offensively.

[keen dome]

Every day someone will say: Use the Ky'veza animations for Sub

[maiden oar]

i thought w crackshot it was really funny though

[keen dome]

And every day they are correct.

[maiden oar]

like u just disappear to run and get ur bullets

and then come back

[vale pine]

midnight comes with some qol improvements

[tribal blade]

oh yeah and it made outlaw completely broken survival wise

[vale pine]

so wouldn't say that

[lofty path]

yeah I'm just being an ass

[vale pine]

could say having specs play very mindlessly is one too

[lofty path]

I just wish rogue could get real animation work

[sudden quarry]

Basically it’s still a bonus shadowstep via shadow strike isn’t it? 😅

[lilac stag]

Outlaw did

[keen dome]

Outlaw got a brace of guns

[tribal blade]

well the good thing is we're not the shit on spec this beta cycle

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/hop-on-the-cycle-frontier-the-cycle-frontier-hop-on-the-cycle-frontier-gif-26888181

[keen dome]

And can cast power word: gun

[tribal blade]

that award goes to arms

[keen dome]

oh yeah they got the tumbleweed too lmao

[bleak night]

OK but blade rush new animation is actually really good

[lofty path]

new blade rush animation is sick

I'll give them that

[bleak night]

One of the best melee animations in the game id go as far to say

[lofty path]

maybe I'm just being too pessimistic

[keen dome]

I really like the shadow dance animation sheen. I think it looks extremely good and about what it should

[minor trout]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[tribal blade]

i honestly haven't even seen the blade rush animation yet because every time i test outlaw i'm just staring at cds

[keen dome]

I know it's just a sahder over the model

But like: this is good

[sudden quarry]

Imagine outlaw being broken and the go to in progress 👀

[keen dome]

Outlaw tier

[lofty path]

I would KILL for an outlaw tier

you have no idea the lengths I would go for that to happen

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/get-tf-out-get-out-zimba-lion-king-monkey-gif-1461417101263154936

[sudden quarry]

What’s wrong with you mate? 😂

[keen dome]

https://tenor.com/view/genki-dama-spirit-bomb-goku-gif-12526925

me manifesting the outlaw tier

[lofty path]

listen outlaw is the perfect fit for my flavor of autism

I love all rogue specs

[bleak night]

I also root for an outlaw tier

[lofty path]

but outlaw is always the most fun for me

[bleak night]

Simply because it would be incredibly funny for outlaw to only become meta after its been ruined in the eyes of many outlaw mains

[lilac stag]

Then play it? You can make it an outlaw tier.

[dusty magnet]

what's everyone's trinket line up for Sub?

[bleak night]

And because I won't have to play it

Bc im not rogue this tier

[sudden quarry]

Another fallen brother we lost to the dark side

[bleak night]

[tulip light]

Outlaw people 👉🚪

[keen dome]

This is where I am, too.

I wouldn't play it.

[lilac stag]

This is why it’ll happen

[keen dome]

I just think it'd be really funny and I am, as always, here for maximum funny.

I'm happy they freed the transmog so I can have a sword MH as Sub (even though it's a dagger)

the dashing scoundrel is unleashed

[lofty path]

yeah it is definitely a shame that outlaw lost a lot of its core identity

[keen dome]

you've still got dice, you've still got energy drinks, what more do you need

[lofty path]

RtB is a shadow of its former self

[tribal blade]

i'm using maces so i can hear the THUNK THUNK THUNK THUNK

[lilac stag]

idk right now none of the 3 specs appear to be outliers so just run whatever spec you enjoy. Just perform.

[keen dome]

Ye

I mean ideally you play all 3 and just swap as the fights need

[fallow glade]

tbh rtb feels much better now, and i say that as someone who actually liked making my own WA for rtb and kir

[bleak night]

Use axes so I play axeaxination

[keen dome]

Theonly real consideration is sword or dagger craft

[bleak night]

[lofty path]

probs dagger craft b/c 2/3 specs use it

[keen dome]

which is hopefully something they someday solve

[tribal blade]

it's way less toxic now

old rtb was incredibly cringe

[lilac stag]

Chicken

[lofty path]

[robust dust]

Where can i find all the shadowdance macros?

[lofty path]

in the FAQ for some of them, I'm sure the wowhead guide has more listed

haven't checked tho

[lilac stag]

Dance ST, Dance Storm, dance Blades ST

[keen dome]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[lilac stag]

I fucking hate that a bot command takes you entire mobile screen

[maiden oar]

im using mugzee knuckle

goes crazy

i love mugzee knuck;e

[robust dust]

Yeah but in some situations i do Need sd eviscarate or sd bp

[maiden oar]

also im kinda glad outlaw got depirated

[lilac stag]

Then why are you asking for macros if you know what you need. Me confused

[keen dome]

oh yeah, it owns

[maiden oar]

it feels better as a gambler/highwayman

[keen dome]

Also can we talk about how fucking cool Mug'zee was from a design standpoint

[maiden oar]

i cannot think of a singular pirate aspect outlaw has now

[keen dome]

they really nailed his design and fight thematics

[robust dust]

To copy paste kekw

[lofty path]

I fucking loved mug'zee

[maiden oar]

i went like this when it rained

[keen dome]

Hell yeah

I love the idea of a gangster shaman twin-headed ogre. It's so good

And they really nailed it

[lilac stag]

And you still can’t for the two you listed.

[maiden oar]

i think i am not going to take the mugzee knuckle off

for a long while

[bleak night]

Mugzee was a cool boss for sure

[maiden oar]

well maybe ill zoom in reaslly close when i play sub or sin

and the animation will look weird

and i wont use mugzee knuckle on them

[keen dome]

Have yous een the small special dagger on backstab when using a fist weapon

[vale pine]

it is a good concern, there are multiple solutions to that:
#1 link to the macro section in the faq and external sources
#2 reduce the macro amount
#3 a combiantion of 1 and 2

[maiden oar]

no i havent ever looked

is it really bad

maybe ill just get a knife again

[keen dome]

It's really funny

Backstab will spawn a tiny generic dagger in your hand if using a fist weapon for a brief second

for reasons???

[maiden oar]

ok yea ill just use a dagger

maybe the baguette

[lilac stag]

I think a macro thread to link to would be easiest solution. !macro *goto #sub-macro or the guides”

[maiden oar]

wonder if its optimal to macro blades + trinket with dance + sectech

[lilac stag]

it does bother me especially when there’s actual conversation going on

[maiden oar]

or bc blades is a x.0 second cooldown if its fine to press them separately

[lilac stag]

You’re already doing this in pre patch

[maiden oar]

since ur never losing a blades global unless u have the slowest hands

well yeah but i could just split the macros

so i could comfortably storm in the opener

instead of vanishing

[lilac stag]

Why are you storming in opener?

[keen dome]

I think having a thread for it is a really good idea, honestly.

Because you can then quickly nip into it and scroll to find what you need, too.

[maiden oar]

someone posted an opener from wowhead guide or something earlier where it was shadowstrike evisc then dance+blades+storm to consume premed

into sectech

so i assumed thats whats correct now

idk where they got the img from hehe

[maiden oar]

here

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/dazai-dazai-osamu-osamu-dazai-bungo-stray-dogs-bsd-gif-25159505

[lilac stag]

Do you plan on playing deathstalker?

[maiden oar]

i have trickster selected hehe

well the st opener has dance into strike but thats bad because of the dance gcd loss macro thingy

[vale pine]

ye, probably

[maiden oar]

so i think in a situation where its the start of the fight and u want to get snd up

[lilac stag]

Strike hit Swifty Macro

[maiden oar]

doing the storm thing is actually correct

unless u vnaish

well in my head anyway

[vale pine]

you can vanish-strike before dance if you want to

[maiden oar]

ah ok

if i need the vanish for anythning

i might want to make the storm comfortable though

[lilac stag]

Then just go right into it and get everything on cd

Snd will be up soon enough

[tepid trellis]

embrace the macroless gameplay

become chad

[maiden oar]

hehe

[tepid trellis]

manually strike

[maiden oar]

i did that last season

and i lost some dmg from it

i have decided i will not leave any dmg on the table

[void hound]

the only macros i care about are my macro nutrients 😤

[tepid trellis]

based

[keen dome]

Why stop at the table? Throw it at them too

[maiden oar]

ok im on the right end still

[lilac stag]

Just flip it

[void hound]

"if you would please consult the graph"

[keen dome]

That's an extra 1d4 bludgeoning damage to throw at them

1d8 if it's a big table

[maiden oar]

i could get better 99 if i play better

[lilac stag]

Just high roll

[keen dome]

Just play with worse people

[maiden oar]

u get better at the game if u play w better people

[lilac stag]

But if they’re so bad kill times goto poop you’re fucked

[maiden oar]

i have to become stronger the honest way

[keen dome]

until they swing around to taking too long and you're BACK ON TOP

[lilac stag]

Nah. Some of the best healers are created because they are used to carrying pugs in keys

[keen dome]

This is true but you also get better by playing with worse and doing better

I'm a puglord, remember!

[maiden oar]

ok its all too confusing i wont worry about it

but i think in general as a response to that graph i have learned to just press buttons :) well enough

and now i gotta tighten up

and focus on doing the little things correct

bc better players than me do the little things correct and do more dmg than me because of it

[lilac stag]

Well according to the Internet there are no little things any longer to worry about

[maiden oar]

hehe

[keen dome]

Just doing your best and having good knowledge is all that matters. Can't control other people.

[maiden oar]

i dont think thats true!

bm hunter really easy right

[tepid trellis]

just be like nibren

[maiden oar]

but i know some epople who just insanely smoked every other bm hunter player

[tepid trellis]

do 0 of the 0,2% min maxes

[maiden oar]

even the good ones

[tepid trellis]

and still beat everybody

[maiden oar]

and people would say its rng or something

but theyd smoke them every time

[lilac stag]

TWO BUTTONS
TWO BUTTONS
TWO BUTTONS

[maiden oar]

i dont think the graphs like entirely wrong though

[keen dome]

sir, I have found a third button

[maiden oar]

bc i was the guy on the right

[fossil forge]

Ni What

[maiden oar]

just going hehe :) and not minmaxing

but now i think i gotta minmax to become stronger

[tepid trellis]

the aussie goat

[keen dome]

The graph speaks of a greater thing in a lot of gaming. The people who get hardstuck in content and don't have the introspection to see they're the problem and need to improve, etc.

[maiden oar]

maybe i should do this though that way i dont have to worry as much

[limpid sage]

a lot of the times I think people hurt their dps in the process of chasing near margin of error optimizations

[vale pine]

some rogues in the wfr always forgot to use symbols pre pull

XD

[maiden oar]

thats true

[lilac stag]

insert George Bush meme

[tepid trellis]

it 100% does

[fossil forge]

Stacking the little minmaxes was so fun

Peak

Th,, evil boat tech

[maiden oar]

yeah thats why i didnt bother w them

[lilac stag]

just get first kill. Instant 100 log.

[maiden oar]

i tried the snd macro in nexus king and found out it just made me play worse

[tepid trellis]

for me i generally dont do anything thats below 0.3% if i find it annoying

[maiden oar]

and from that point on just focused on playing as normal as possible

[fossil forge]

https://tenor.com/view/231-gif-25095509

Scath always dropping elite ball knowledge

[maiden oar]

but now i think i gotta gradually learn to play w/ minmaxes and incorporate them in bit by bit

like how when ur baking u dont put all the flour in at once

[tepid trellis]

depends on what you baking

tbf

[maiden oar]

oh ok i dont bake enough

hehe

[lilac stag]

I just want to see the 15-20 of us all succeed.

[maiden oar]

everything ive baked wants me to do it like that

[keen dome]

I put the flour in all at once because I'm a terrible baker.

[vale pine]

you just learn the basics

[keen dome]

Loaf adjust

[limpid sage]

ye nexus king was def one of the fights where trying to optimize the downtime part just killed your dps way more often than ooga booga I feel

[vale pine]

then incprparate min/max later

thats the easiest way to learn any spec

[maiden oar]

yea

[fossil forge]

jump straight into minmaxxing greyparse for a szn come back better than ever

[lilac stag]

I wonder how many Sectech casts are going to get missed in logs trying to min max cd lineups

[maiden oar]

cats

[lilac stag]

Chasing Akaari

[fossil forge]

Cats?goremaws mentioned

[keen dome]

I agree, cats.

[maiden oar]

https://tenor.com/view/kittens-funny-cute-kitten-cat-gif-17494217

[lilac stag]

death from above (the couch)

[maiden oar]

big fan

[fossil forge]

My cat would rather die before he comes close to the bath

i stg

[maiden oar]

the boats kept not spawning for me as soon as nexus king died

i dont know whats wrong w my guilds lockouts

[lilac stag]

!magic8ball do I actually make gunslinger UI today?

[maiden oar]

im proud of coming up w the boat tech though

that was a stroke of genius

[fossil forge]

HAHA

I loved beating them up on break

[maiden oar]

when i filled in for guilds on my alt theyd always have the boats

[keen dome]

yes

[cinder marten]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[keen dome]

What's the boat tech?

[limpid sage]

the shadow docks guys that just keep spawning in

free unseen blade cheese

[maiden oar]

u know at the start of nexus king by the teleporters

there are dudes who come in on boats and get killed by friendly npcs

can predisorient on them

and its right by a teleporter

[limpid sage]

I added 20 sec pretty consistently between every pull on dimmy

[maiden oar]

so its easy access from alot of bosses if u activate the skip

like its good on araz etc too

[limpid sage]

just for us to kill on my literal worst pull

[maiden oar]

HEHE

i never made ppl wait to do it id just do it if we were waiting for 90s anhyway

[keen dome]

oooh

that's cool

[maiden oar]

yea its funny

i hope there are rp adds that infinitely spawn right by a fast travel point in the new radi

[remote shuttle]

So sad to see this... No more cb no more flag no more sod no more rupture... That's a sadly poor rotation now... 🥲

[warm marlin]

I think it depends on what type of player u are

I know some guys who are very very good who are very much just press button enjoyers

and some others do think about everything and go for every minmax

[maiden oar]

is the ceiling for this type of guy higher than the ceiling for the first type of guy

[remote shuttle]

Gl to all subs still playing, i'll be on a long vacation from wow till things change... Gl all

[maiden oar]

bc i feel like it is but it could be a grass is greener thing

[warm marlin]

I would say it’s probably more consistency

[tribal blade]

the funniest thing is when you're trying to min max the shit out of a fight

[warm marlin]

Could also just be the same tho

[tribal blade]

then you do a pull where you just full send no think and do more dmg

[maiden oar]

i see

[keen dome]

Yeah, they'r funny

[maiden oar]

if theres one reassuring thing to keep in mind its that blizzard changes their mind alot

[maiden oar]

this was me on fract on sin during prog

[warm marlin]

there is a confounding factor that the type of person to deep think about every gcd probably cares more about parsing and whatnot

[maiden oar]

i was minmaxing vanish and prism around execute and projected kt

[keen dome]

Blizzard took it down to 0 to build it back up. It's not like Sub had that much else going on anyway.

[maiden oar]

and then i just sent on cd and we killed and i did way better

[keen dome]

we've lost two buttons, one of which was a boring maintence button you pushed every half minute or w/e.

[maiden oar]

and i went to sincord

and asked if the ccool minmax i invented was actually stupid

and they told me no it wasnt and i went like this

[remote shuttle]

Ye i Will keep an Eye open while playing others games...

[maiden oar]

thats true

[remote shuttle]

Everything Is Lost atm imho... Will see if things Will change in future... This rotation Is so boring atm also no CDR ...

And no ramp

[keen dome]

It's really not that different.

[maiden oar]

i loved cdr and ramp and prep work so i really get it

[keen dome]

The core is still there. You just don't Flag and don't Symbols. That's basically it.

[maiden oar]

im going to keep playing wow bc i will probably be able to enjoy the game despite this

[keen dome]

There wasn't much thought going into it. It was fun to push and I do think Sub needs one more button

But it's really not that different.

[maiden oar]

but i really do understand

[tribal blade]

this came at the exact time i wanted to quit title pushing and relax more in game

so i'm all for it

[maiden oar]

this is the exact time i want to go crazy and play more

funny

[tribal blade]

oh NO

[alpine wraith]

no ramp is actually better

[maiden oar]

its fine i think ill still have fun

[keen dome]

Pet battles

[tribal blade]

i think so too

[maiden oar]

i spent awhile playing xiv and maplestory after our farm started dying down

[alpine wraith]

although arguably we still have some ramp in getting flawless stacks but not hbuge

[maiden oar]

and i came to the conclusion theres no mmo id rather be playing than wow still

[warm marlin]

I’ve actually just straight been playing Tarkov since November 💀 and friendslop

get me out

[maiden oar]

hehe

i had to quit maplestory for my health

[tribal blade]

i've become a housing person

[maiden oar]

i would never accomplish anything in my entire life ever again

[tribal blade]

i've spent a ton of time on my house so far

[maiden oar]

if i didnt quit maple