subtlety

[tribal blade]

losing 1-2 backstab gcds oh no

despair

[maiden oar]

sometimes dks will stand somewhwre psychotic

[austere spear]

desparege

[maiden oar]

bc they say oh hehe i have death advance

and forget about you

so evil

[tribal blade]

oh yeah they have the most raid priviledge ever

ignore half of all mechanics

baseline

[grand wyvern]

you could step anyone if ytou stepped early, dk was just more reliable

[tribal blade]

yeah you would just sometimes step slightly out of range depending

but if you hit it fast enough was totally fine

i would sometimes fuck it up and then just step dimmy

[maiden oar]

yea just stand on them so u get knocked same direction

[tribal blade]

and then the tanks would be like "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE"

i had to tell them to chill out because every time i did that i was preventing a death

my own death

just had to run my ass all the way back while dodging the tanks and getting knocked around lol

[maiden oar]

yea stepping to boss is so funny there

[tribal blade]

worst was accidentally porting from 1st strike on pull

into the middle of the platform

[austere spear]

i died to that my first ever pull on M dimmy

never did it again\

[lilac stag]

Target adds kekw

[tribal blade]

yeah now it's easy, just target adds on pull 😉

[upper narwhal]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[austere spear]

ah yes target the adds that die in .2s to the dh/dks/surv hunter

[lilac stag]

idk I just jumped around on warrior and listened to rogue complain.

[lilac stag]

You port on countdown at 2 and strike. Even my arthritic ass can do that.

[tribal blade]

step is this interesting movement ability that's both insanely good and horrible at the same time

depending on the encounter

[austere spear]

wonder how many times its gonna get me killed in midnight

[lilac stag]

I feel like I would have wanted to be outlaw on that fight.

[tribal blade]

yeah grapple is probably goated on dimmy

[austere spear]

Grapple feels good on dimmy but the spec doesnt

[tribal blade]

lol yeah zac parsing 100s and doing no dam

[austere spear]

Then again i just dislike outlaw

[lilac stag]

no one actually liked outlaw last season

[tribal blade]

i would rather not play outlaw in midnight, but i would be willing to play it after the rework

if it ended up being the best spec by a large margin

[lilac stag]

it’s way better than it was. I just don’t enjoy reactionary play that much.

[austere spear]

^

Same

[tribal blade]

i think FB is the move during midnight too for outlaw

[lilac stag]

and that’s ok. Good to have options

[tribal blade]

so don't need to fuck with KS

1 less button

[austere spear]

I also don't enjoy the new rtb

[tribal blade]

it's really stupid simple now

but i prefer that

can explain rerolling now in 1 sentence

[austere spear]

Sure but i honestly wish rogue retained some of the complexity of the class for skill expression. Now its just who has the better uptime and knows their class better

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/starbucks-starbucks-cheer-heres-to-you-old-friend-gif-7203670

[lilac stag]

Knowing the class better is skill expression

if you don’t know what to do with sht stacks and dance you’re going to perform worse. the someone ignoring it and just going to town on CD isn’t going to perform as well

[keen dome]

That's what it's always been, really. If you know the class better you know when to apply it to the fight.

[austere spear]

Fair just boggles my mind when some people can't perform or care not improve every pull of a fight

[lilac stag]

it boggles my mind people want to play deathstalker.

it really doesn’t matter end of the day

[keen dome]

Ye

[lilac stag]

Focus on you.

[keen dome]

The only thing you have control of is yourself. Focus on that and everything goes better.

[lilac stag]

Everyone here for diffy reasons

[austere spear]

I just prefer deathstalker over trickster but i will play w/e performs better

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/trisha-hershberger-thatgrltrish-mind-blown-gif-18204854

[lilac stag]

Someone should write an addon that just makes trickster look like deathstalker to save these poor lads from themselves.

[tribal blade]

DS definitely has better icons and theme than trickster

[tardy solar]

everytime they click the talent change button for DS, just have it fake the cast bar and it stays trickster

[tribal blade]

but that's where it ends

[grand wyvern]

i am all for the flavour of ds but changing target makes me wanna hurt myself

[tribal blade]

the entire tree is just an unholy mess

[tardy solar]

might do some more dmg if it was unholy

[tribal blade]

i'm convinced the only way to fix it is take away the mark being on the target and make it so you fixate whatever you're targeting

which is not great to match the theme, but it's the BtE fix they did for outlaw

[grand wyvern]

or just keep tuning it bad so we can pretend it doesnt exists

[tribal blade]

kinda blows because having 2 trees to choose from is cool

but with DS as it currently is i would rather pretend it doesn't exist

[lilac stag]

For everyone complaining there’s nothing to track, there’s always DS hero tree.

[alpine wraith]

they just need to make the mark a button

same with unseen would have been like 10x times better

[north schooner]

they could make it so two sstrikes on the same target moves the mark

[grand wyvern]

buttons are against sub philosophy

[alpine wraith]

like imgine if you had like 6 stacks or 4 of use

[tribal blade]

that would work too

[alpine wraith]

and you just used them

WAO

[tardy solar]

change goremaws bite to rip the mark off a target, then press it again to reapply it to a new targert

[alpine wraith]

nah cant have that in modern wow with all the people that liked to hugh claymores and lost all their fingers

and only use pedals

[tribal blade]

remember how much dev time was required to make the mark functional during TWW beta

it was bonkers

[alpine wraith]

and also now

with mass casualty and clones etc

working with dn

[tribal blade]

yeah it's all a mess

[alpine wraith]

and also things still not working with singular

after almost 2 years

[tribal blade]

sectec not working with singular is a big loss

imagine having a big nuke button that doesn't interact with it 🙂

that's actually kinda similar to the issue sin is having with spatter atm

[alpine wraith]

also i have to check but the talent that pops 1 mark instantly sometimes

also does not work with mass casualty and singular

[tribal blade]

oh that blows

[alpine wraith]

maybe it was fixed

[tribal blade]

let it stay bugged

[lilac stag]

DO NOT DISRESPECT GOREMAWS LIKE THAT

[north schooner]

it doesn't and shouldn't work with MC based on how it is currently written. (but they should change that because random grief to aoe is dumb)

[tardy solar]

ma bad

[alpine wraith]

yea nothing like having a talent that makes my aoe worse with the one that should make it better XD

gotta be rogue

[north schooner]

the random mark pop is even a prerequisite of MC. they could literally change it to pop on BP and when the mark procs

[alpine wraith]

sometimes i feel working on rogue is like a punishment for people that mess up

and they just wing it

at least this time we have like 2x the bugfixes than in TWW

gotta give them some congratz but also if the initial implementations didnt suck

we would have less problems

[stuck lance]

In 3+ targets wants to cancelaura before every single Darkest Night Eviscerate. saw this line on rotation what is going on there?

[north schooner]

they just love antisynergy for rogues for whatever reason

[lilac stag]

More like 10x

[alpine wraith]

you cancelaura ancient arts before the DN evis

yea but i mean

[stuck lance]

yes thamls but why?

thanks*

[lilac stag]

we’re aren’t waiting 10 months hahaha

[alpine wraith]

so you have an evis that hits 1 target for 50k lets say

DN makes it crit and it hits for 100k

then copy lets say does another 50k

150k

or you can bp and hit 3 targets for 70k

then copies hit each for 35k

random numbers but you get the idea

[stuck lance]

not really is it to save the hit for BP?

[alpine wraith]

yea

basically apex on bp does like double or more the dmg

than using it on evis

[swift tinsel]

DN just really really sucks from like every angle in aoe

[stuck lance]

but dont u just loose it if you cancel aura

[alpine wraith]

you get it back

after you storm again

the sht are not lost anywhere

[stuck lance]

but it procs of expending shadow tech so wouldnt you get it back either way or can it only proc every other finisher?

[alpine wraith]

yes it can only proc after using a builder

if after filling cp it has at least 5 sht

[stuck lance]

ok but u DN doesnt refill combo points so u would hit a builder anyways?

[alpine wraith]

yea just you will do more damage with the next finisher

[stuck lance]

i am just not understanding the benefit of canceling it unless there is a bug or something

[tribal blade]

DN apex only hits 1 target

BP apex hits many targets in aoe

more hits=more dmg

[stuck lance]

ok but if you cancel it generally it wont reapply itself for the next finisher

[exotic steeple]

what was the addon called that tracked used cds´?

[alpine wraith]

you know you use the sht on that DN evis just to lose them for more dmg

or you think those 5 to 7 sht just appear magically

you need to work for them!

it is like getting a 2$ burger for 300g

or getting a different 2$ burger that has 500g

you want more meat or not

[stuck lance]

so if i cancel aura the DN evis the Apex buff will reapply itself for the next BP that doesnt sound right

[alpine wraith]

yea as long as you have the sht you will get apex back on next builder

[lilac stag]

Hoping people realize it’s grams and not gold

[alpine wraith]

oh damn i forgot the freedom people

[lilac stag]

I gotchu

[alpine wraith]

what is it there like ponder

[stuck lance]

but couldnt it just proc from shadow techniques ur using then

[alpine wraith]

a 3/4 or a 1/2

[lilac stag]

6oz 8oz typically

[alpine wraith]

apex 3 procs if you have enough sht after using a builder

regardless of finisher or things that happened before

[stuck lance]

ok so if i am going to cancel aura i need to make sure i have 5 stacks?

[exotic steeple]

do we shadow strike in shadow dance always as the cp builder in aoe?

[lilac stag]

It’s the same reason we strike as trickster

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq

[alpine wraith]

if you cancelaura'd you would have them still to use on next builder and then proc it again

and use them on god given bp

[stuck lance]

but ancient arts and shadow techh are different buffs

[alpine wraith]

yea just the ancient arts use those to enable the cp refresh and apex 1 does the extra damage when using those sht

[lilac stag]

@alpine wraith remember when biggest issue with ShT was understanding it wasn’t random?

[alpine wraith]

so you want to use the best finisher available

[alpine wraith]

kek the 0 0 0 50 100 was so silly

eventually they cahnged it then again then again

and now the description was krangled as f

and now it is fine again

[lilac stag]

it’s quite funny what the old timers in here have lived through

somehow it always ends with confusion

[stuck lance]

I remeber sub swords and hemo and expose how far back we going lol

[lilac stag]

then this shouldn’t be so confusing

[left ledge]

Well that’s out rn so

Doesn’t need much remembering

[lilac stag]

unless you’re playing classic

[alpine wraith]

yea nothing like changing to maces vs plate to get more arpen

then back to swords for cloth/leather/mail

crazy days

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/bongo-cat-rogue-gif-24661232

[left ledge]

Mop rotation

[alpine wraith]

sometimes i wish i began recording earlier

[lilac stag]

are dummies books still a thing? We need to write rogue apex talents for dummies

[alpine wraith]

so many funnny times lost forever

[lilac stag]

To de-krangle blizzards shit

[alpine wraith]

maybe it is time to do a speedrun video about ancient krangles

[lilac stag]

I feel like this is going to be a daily conversation as soon as 4pc hits

[left ledge]

4pc?

Like our tier?

[lilac stag]

shit just hit 90 I suppose

[alpine wraith]

maybe 4 points in apex

tier set is blades

[lilac stag]

ye

[left ledge]

Yea tier is like

Not a thing to think about

[alpine wraith]

well it enables some funny things

[lilac stag]

Brain jumped the tracks for a moment

[alpine wraith]

my man went back to DF

[exotic steeple]

https://outplayed.tv/world-of-warcraft/olbazk

would this be the right rotation?

[lilac stag]

Got a log?

[exotic steeple]

idk how to save logs etc

i used trufigcd to track the cds in the middle of the screen

to showcase it

[stuck lance]

doi we have a bug list?

[lilac stag]

https://www.archon.gg/wow/articles/help/getting-started

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[left ledge]

Surely they get fixed

[lilac stag]

we’re doing pretty good with the fixes

[tribal vortex]

can i try 1-2 m+ logs

and osmeone point out big mistakes?

it is prepatch

just out of curiosity

[lilac stag]

You can try using !log

it’s prepatch so idk if anyone will look tbh

[tribal vortex]

!log

[jagged flicker]

Hey guys, quick question, as i'm not that good at theory ''crafting'' builds, is there anywhere where i could try talent builds on beta that people made?

[pallid jackal]

So do we use fan of knives / black powder now all the time in m+ /aoe? with 2+ targets

Additionally, do we use the coup de grace on proc as well?

[austere spear]

just macro coup with bp and forget about it

[pallid jackal]

And last question, was it better to go in with 5 cp on deathstalker single target or with 0? single target dps

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq

Or !guides

@vale pine did bot die?

[hazy breach]

You have to start with it

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

oh shit. Hahah thought I had the or after the faq

[haughty mural]

Man you are getting old

[lilac stag]

Too many bats with insomnia

[vale pine]

nope, as eleem showed

[lilac stag]

sorry @vale pine

[vale pine]

all fine

[haughty mural]

[lilac stag]

EMG yesterday for my accident related pains. Completely flared my fibromyalgia. want to just hide under the blankets. lol

[haughty mural]

Oh no

That sounds horrible 😭

All I got is a torn meniscus right now

[lilac stag]

2 years of dealing with this. 😵‍💫🔫

EMG kinda a necessary evil to see if there’s any nerve dmg

[keen dome]

🫂 Scath.

[vale pine]

[pallid jackal]

I see, thanks

[minor trout]

should i pool some energy for dance?

[chrome palm]

Enough for 1 global

[vale pine]

you don't rly need to pool on subtlety

[radiant swift]

u guys dont pool ? i feel like im constantly pooling energy for stec

well "pooling" more like waiting 2 sec

[swift tinsel]

ShT yes but energy not really

[radiant swift]

huh i often dont have enough for stec

prepatch that is tho

[sullen hare]

you shouldn't be pressing backstab every moment it's available

[radiant swift]

prob

[sullen hare]

anytime secret technique is under 1-2 sec from up, it's fine to just sit at capped combo points and regen energy

[radiant swift]

ih yeah that

[sullen hare]

I don't consider 2-3 seconds "pooling"

[radiant swift]

is exactly what i do

same

just enough so that macro works

and after that its no problem anyway

[sullen hare]

if you actually do that then energy shouldn't be a problem. we're just naturally energy-thirsty when outside of dance

[radiant swift]

i ment specificaly that scrnario

[swift tinsel]

If I’m a few sec out from dance and at full cp I just stab to not cap energy

[radiant swift]

outside dance is w.e and inside also

[sullen hare]

yep just the odd plink or two at 50%+ energy

(napkin math)

[swift tinsel]

Ye it’s a feely move

[sullen hare]

the best part is it's backstab so it numerically doesn't matter!

[swift tinsel]

Lmao pretty much

[sullen hare]

all lives matter (except for backstab)

[vale pine]

^ this is correct, you can not use abilities shortly before dance, which indirectly pools

[radiant swift]

idk i do spam fok a bit in m+

its what about 8% of overall

but also prob not from outside dance so

[sullen hare]

fok destroys energy bars haha

[north schooner]

they will buff backstab by 6% to make it matter!!!

[sullen hare]

100% backstab buff, gloomblade baseline

we return to s2 df

[swift tinsel]

I’d welcome GB baseline lol

[sullen hare]

gloomblade baseline would be such an insignificant buff overall

[swift tinsel]

Mo’ purple

[vale pine]

one rly important thing in m+ is to stay in melee range

[sullen hare]

it would increase our amount of purple though

[vale pine]

missing out on sht is just very bad

so auto attacks matter (in my opinion too much) a lot more now

[sullen hare]

^ an easy way to cripple your resources for sure

[radiant swift]

theres this weird like situations where if im slightly turned stuff wont go out

same with assasin aswell

sometimes it feels like i have infinite aa range sometimes u just stand there and its not attacking

u know perhpas whats thats all about?

[vale pine]

some of the cooldown manager icons have range indicators build in

what you talk about is hit boxes

[radiant swift]

i know stec has one

[vale pine]

they are not uniform

e.g. some bosses have bigger ones

a good example is fractilus, you can stand quite far away from the boss and still hit with your auto attacks and spells

[radiant swift]

this was more a m+ thing

[vale pine]

compare it with the council fight, the 3 daemon hunters, and you need to stand a lot closer

[radiant swift]

but the bosses do have a quiet big range

iirc the big ass red circle is where u can stand max

[chrome palm]

if only

[vale pine]

sadly not

[alpine wraith]

it depends

[vale pine]

as mentioned, its not uniform, so you have no real indication

[alpine wraith]

many bosses have more or less hitbox

[swift tinsel]

Isn’t that how ffxiv hit boxes are

Or am I misremembering

[vale pine]

blizz did change it to be better tho

[chrome palm]

i dont think so

you can stand outside of the red circle iirc

[haughty geyser]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[swift tinsel]

It was like five years ago I played now so details are fuzzy lol

[vale pine]

the more extreme hitboxes where you basically stick into the enemies ass to hit are not super common anymore

[vale pine]

hitboxes are a fun topic, i might consider doing a writeup or sth about them when i have time

think its one area that sounds extremely simple, but has a lot of small details hidden

[maiden oar]

ff max melee range is outside the ring but its always based on the ring

theres nothing like loomithar p1

where the ring and max melee have no relation

[radiant swift]

idk i allways felt frac ring was more or less spot on

[maiden oar]

frac maybe is i dont know bc im way up there usually

[radiant swift]

could possible stand a bit outside of circle

[maiden oar]

i dont ever see the ring

[swift tinsel]

Our tanks thought the same thing about p2 with how long they let her sit in the pool outside melee range

😂

[alpine wraith]

it is not he has places on the sides where he has more

[radiant swift]

just dont stand there, duh

[maiden oar]

spread spot is up close and i step to cancel every kb so im always like right in front of fract

genuinely no idea never had to go back for any reaosn

[chrome palm]

in ff, if you cant stand behind the boss to backstab it, you still get the backstab bonus

who could imagine

[maiden oar]

hehe

[vale pine]

dh's or salad bar are good examples

where hitboxes can look visually correct but you still get hit

especially cone attacks often look shorter than they are

[swift tinsel]

Yeah I just usually assume a frontal has near-infinite range lol

[keen dome]

gloomblade baseline??? where my senses were tingling

[swift tinsel]

Also bless the bosses that you can get inside the middle of their hitbox to avoid mechanics

[vale pine]

wouldn't mind that

[keen dome]

same

purple backstab -> backstab

[plush roost]

Fuck yknow what

Gloomblade baseline

Backstab becomes 6 sec cd button for damage

Thatd spice things up, esp since u could squish 2 backstabs in

[keen dome]

damn, you've cooked

I normally go with backstab becoing a pvp button

but yeah that'd be cool

[swift tinsel]

Wait wait wait

What if

Backstab had a cooldown, say 45 sec and did damage and made your next three finishers cost no energy

[keen dome]

no

[vale pine]

backstab should be a pvp talent

[keen dome]

I can't believe goremaw's bite has stolen Haptics discord account

[swift tinsel]

You could even change the name if you had to

Something something bite

[swift tinsel]

Hey that has a mighty fine ring to it

“Goremaw’s Bite” someone write that down

[keen dome]

[vale pine]

throw goremaws out of the window

welcome back banshees blight

[swift tinsel]

And let it cause clones to double spawn below 30-25% hp

In addition to the damage proc

[vale pine]

i like the idea of reset abilities

[swift tinsel]

Execute obliterators

For the Mastery: Executioner spec

[plush roost]

Guys let me cook

Goremaws bite

But

Instead of 3 free finishers

Its 3 guaranteed apex finishers

Shadow clone jutsu shii

Sec tec gore maws apex coup apex evis apex evis sounds pretty spicy

[swift tinsel]

You had me at shadow clone jutsu

But that would actually go pretty hard

[keen dome]

It's always shadow clones

When are we gonna summon the Big O with a finisher.

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-big-o-big-o-dorothy-roger-gif-6524666446815090954

[keen dome]

I push Secret Technique

[swift tinsel]

Holy fuckin throwback

[keen dome]

https://tenor.com/view/big-o-mecha-anime-robot-punch-gif-20833542

That's the secret technique

[swift tinsel]

As long as it also says it’s showtime before he launches

[keen dome]

You need a macro for that

[swift tinsel]

Can do

I would also like a Trigun Outlaw crossover that gives me the angel arm

And vash’s coat for transmog

[keen dome]

Nah, too on the nose

It's gotta be something niche like Big O or Desert Punk

[swift tinsel]

Stupid reboot making it not niche

Hey Reboot

There’s a long lost show lol

[keen dome]

Hell yeah, Reboot

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/reboot-megabyte-it-amused-me-megabyte-reboot-gif-26456569

No good fong gifs wtf

[keen dome]

Reboot was a cool attempt

[soft summit]

God… skill expression?? You’re a season 1 grey parser… man, where do you people come from?

[austere spear]

? i didnt play s1 on rogue lmao

[graceful osprey]

Saved, ship it blizz

[uneven scarab]

yeah thats a fat cook ngl

anything to make goremaws an actual button i can get behind

[alpine wraith]

i want rogue to have a vaal flicker strike

[uneven scarab]

yooo

Im a vaal smite gamer

Love that spell

[swift tinsel]

googles Vaal

[uneven scarab]

poe thing

[swift tinsel]

That does sound pretty slick ngl

[uneven scarab]

its like alternate corrupted versions of spells

One of my favorite mechanics from that game

[alpine wraith]

basically you use souls that you get from different mechanics then expend them to do a super attack that does nothing for 25 ones then pops instantly https://www.twitch.tv/hachadino/clip/RenownedLivelyKangarooPanicBasket-t7FmrVVHDiGSD1UN

i wish we had something like that as sub like imagine if we do like 40 finishers

we could go rabid

or make it a crazy number like 60 or 100 finishers then you can press it

[lucid jackal]

Every league I play a new fav build ever low key

The actual goat I played was splitting steel champ in affliction league

Rip to a legend

[uneven scarab]

My smite trickster was built from a mirror drop in settlers

I’ll never have a league that good ever again

[alpine wraith]

you should have tried stat stacker aristocrat while you could

like mastery stack sub

it was so silly

casual 8500% inc dmg

in an ascendancy

[uneven scarab]

Aristo stat stacking was unreal

For sure

[fathom adder]

@soft summit what a weird thing to say

[narrow shadow]

Hey guys, what % of sub damage is magic vs physical?

[alpine wraith]

almost 50 50

sometimes more magical because of clones

[lucid jackal]

I hated lightning strike every time I played it

I played like 4 diff versions including trickster never liked jt

[alpine wraith]

lightning strike was never good dmg but was very comfy

for most people

[narrow shadow]

I see

Playing with MW monk next season and checking how much the debuff would benefit me

[uneven scarab]

My friend played LS a few leagues ago, could never see the screen when she played

Just blue everywhere

[narrow shadow]

Guess around 2.5% damage increase?

[uneven scarab]

its pretty useful

If you dont have a shaman though, gg

skyfury is insanely good for rogues

[narrow shadow]

I know

[hazy breach]

Roughly ye

[narrow shadow]

Sadly my group doesn't have one

🙁

Can I just get a friend to buff me before the key and pray to not die?

[hazy breach]

Afaik no

[plush roost]

Whsts the bugfix workin out to be you reckon? 3%?

[narrow shadow]

Damn ok

[hazy breach]

Which one

[narrow shadow]

How much is sham buff, like 5%?

[alpine wraith]

the coup one on aoe?

it is quite decent

[hazy breach]

8%

[narrow shadow]

Holy shit

[plush roost]

Idk how much of flurry is divided between coup and melees/unseen

Ye thr apex coup flurry fix

[alpine wraith]

think it is around 3 yea right

[uneven scarab]

yeah lmao

its alot

[narrow shadow]

It sucks that we depend so much on it

[keen dome]

Every expansion we gain more value from the Shamans. (Maybe. i don't know. But it's funnier if it is)

[plush roost]

Tlt windfurry is 30%

Im from the future

Feral provides it

And renamed windfurry

[hazy breach]

Not entire sure either, i looked at a random log of yours in a big pull and all the nimble stuff did 700k total (3m with nimble) and the clone would add ~200k more

[plush roost]

Hmm thats pretty significant then

[hazy breach]

So looks to be around 3.5% more damage on this pull

[plush roost]

Ye i dont apex every coup rn tho

I could game it harder

[hazy breach]

You did in this pull atleast

[plush roost]

Ah W

[hazy breach]

2/2

I purposefully looked for one where you did 😉

[plush roost]

[uneven scarab]

Common charrend W

[hazy breach]

But thats also assuming they dont fuck anything else up with the clone for ST

[north schooner]

@vale pine when you next update your sim sheet, can you rerun the raid buff sims too for it to pick up the new hunter's mark version?

[vale pine]

soon-ish

[hazy breach]

Well new hunters mark is just flat 3% no

[north schooner]

for st yes but some people aren't even aware that it got changed (at least 1 french noob)

[hazy breach]

Fair enough

[hazy breach]

But ye pulling numbers numbers out of my ass if its like 3.5-4% on big pulls its probably like 2% or something similar to the overall

As its nothing in ST

[tropic pier]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[plush roost]

ye i wonder if to set up omega burst u could go unseen 3/4 stacks, pre disorient, then go dance storm apex coup build sec tec build bp build finish build apex evis

[hazy breach]

Predisorient is very hard to do now though except literally at the start of the key/boss

As you cant storm+bp meanwhile

[alpine wraith]

shuriken toss to the rescue

[vale pine]

[alpine wraith]

actually does toss proc apex 3

havent checked

but yea predisorient is kinda in a weird spot

[plush roost]

ye but if theres ever like a downtime section ala Dimmy or Saladbar

[lilac stag]

Shiv to the rescue!

[plush roost]

theres some potential there

[hazy breach]

Ye fair

[plush roost]

just getting 2 coups off in 7-8 globals seems quite insane for burst

faster if u double proc at all

[hazy breach]

But before you could do it sometimes in keys too by just bp+storming

[plush roost]

yeee i mean, between packs theres an angle

sometimes i end apack with sec tec and dont start hitting things for 15 seconds

[alpine wraith]

yea shiv and toss is all we have rn

im actually curios let me check if toss can proc apex 3 might have a cool thing

although i guess it is better if you have 3 unseen and just strike

then dance coup builder sec tech

[pure dust]

hey does anyone know how many myth dawncrests drop at the end of a 10+ in midnight?

[lilac stag]

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/midnight/season-1-mythic-rewards-loot-drops-mounts-achievements

[pure dust]

thanks scath

[pure dust]

so crafting dagger will still be our prio then even with the new changes

[plush roost]

Uhdk getting nerfed... ele on top....

The recipe is getting close

To sub rogue season...

Aware

[hazy breach]

I mean you always crafted one before, and you still do so

[maiden oar]

i hope its enhance

[naive hemlock]

you know how it works

sub will be good s1 and then it will gradually fall off for sin

[vale pine]

you know its rare for subtlety to naturally fall behind

🙊

[alpine wraith]

no need for that they can just buff assa

[lilac stag]

come on. Too early for doom. We all know s1 is outlaw tier.

[austere spear]

I hope not

[alpine wraith]

tbh last time it was an outlaw tier that was not the s4 meme ones

it was so long ago people might not even remember

[fallow nimbus]

The last outlaw tier it was called combat

[lean bone]

My uncle dropped the game once they remade combat into outlaw

He was a die hard combat enjoyer

[alpine wraith]

it had 1 week in legion

before getting completely beastified

[lilac stag]

Oh the artifact weapon adjustments we were told wouldn’t happen.

[sharp rapids]

Is it ever worth to hold Darkest Night for the next shadow dance? Like "waste" 1 finisher (aoe situation)? Or is that troll

[hazy breach]

Nah just send it

In aoe youd rather not Darkest Night in dance

As BP does way more damage, but you still have to use it

[sharp rapids]

I see. Thanks

[polar wharf]

Guys when do we press vanish in aoe and when in st?

[fallow nimbus]

When you feel like it

Vanish isn't a dps cd for sub anymore

Use it for mobility, emergency cheapshot or as defensive

[hazy breach]

In ST its a very small gain since you get premeditation after casting it (and you can use a strike instead of backstab)

But in aoe its completely irrelevant

[north schooner]

destro lock has a leading space, and demo and ww have a leading new line

[lucid jackal]

What is this

[clever ember]

idk sub is lookin strong in the beta for real

with the apex talent

without apex talent its not as strong tho

[maiden oar]

i bet its so fun to make up tier lists like that

[polar wharf]

We dance each time secret technique gets off cd?

[grand wyvern]

agent shindig did his job, it's spreading

[tidal blade]

sandbag always

[alpine wraith]

remember to play assa and forget poisons

make us proud

[boreal fulcrum]

how is sub doing vs sin in prepatch?

[alpine wraith]

we are kinda good

as good as some tanks

[tidal blade]

sub is fine you can do all 20s bc prepatch is a joke

[boreal fulcrum]

hmm... so we basically dont have any buttons to press anymore huh lol

[tulip light]

*if u inv 2 actual dps that is 😂

[clever ember]

sub is better with the Apex so once we actually get the Apex talent it will be alright

[tidal blade]

you could be Assa rogue lol

need to invite boys that squat 4 wheels for reps to carry that

[dire ravine]

Until you have to hit 3 backstabs in a row and it feels like I’m slapping them with Xalataths pool noodle

[clever ember]

i think it will change and i think rogue will have 1 spec that is pumpin

[warm marlin]

You cannot have real burst without also having periods of pool noodle

[clever ember]

to be honest thats any class right now

[dire ravine]

Can I trade “real burst” for pool noodle filled with like concrete?

[warm marlin]

not on sub really

Assa has a more normalized damage curve if that’s what you’re into to

[dire ravine]

I don’t mind assa, I’m just more interested in sub.

[shrewd lantern]

I mean if you want a more flat damage profile the other two specs exist.

Having multiple dps profiles on a class is good.

[plush roost]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[clever ember]

so what is everyone using their 80 boost on

[tidal marsh]

Tinkerer

Thinking of trying a Tuskarr Tinkerer

[tough umbra]

Quick question - If I am always supposed to case Shadow Blades WITH Shadow Dance can I macro both of them together to just use one button? Is there any downside to that at all? I can't imagine a scenario where you wouldn't want to hit them at the exact same time.

[warm marlin]

you may sometimes have blades up and wish to dance but hold blades for a little while longer

maybe there's a damage amp at 2mins in, but you'd overcap dances/waste sectec cd if you didn't cast at 1:40

[short radish]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[tough umbra]

Sorry, that is what I meant. To macro Dance into Blades but also keep a seperate bind for dance specifically.

[warm marlin]

oh ye that's fine

ideal even

[tough umbra]

Ok, thank you!!

[short radish]

i have 3 or 4 macros for sblades

naked
sblade+sdance
sblade+sdance+trinket
sblade+sdance+trinket+pot

[tepid trellis]

im at a whopping 0

[narrow shadow]

I would never macro them together but perhaps I'm used to the old ways

[short radish]

im getting old

[tough umbra]

Smart. That way you can use it per situation.

[tepid trellis]

i just tend to fully avoid macros

[warm marlin]

tww3

[maiden oar]

holy moly

i have alot of dance macros now

bc of the 2nd dance in blades

i have:
dance storm
dance bp
dance evisc
dance sectech
dance blades trinket

[short radish]

wooo delay

[warm marlin]

ya those are all just permutations that include second on use/racial/pot, sometimes wanted to hold one or the other

[tepid trellis]

last time i had a cooldowns macro was in SL

[maiden oar]

ah

[tepid trellis]

when dance + SoD was always pressed together

[maiden oar]

i never macro pot

maybe thats noobish behavior

[tepid trellis]

havent had one since then

[warm marlin]

i have a separate keybind i just dont like it

[narrow shadow]

I macro shadow blades with pot and trinket. The rest I do manually

[warm marlin]

and it was easy to have a unique blades macro per boss

[tough umbra]

with both CD's for sub being off GCD it seems almost perferred to macro them into stuff.

[maiden oar]

i just feel weird not having control over it but sometimes the timing i press it is less good bc its not macrod

its super minor

[warm marlin]

meh its 30s

[maiden oar]

but i should probably macro it

yeah in xiv it mattered a ton more

[tough umbra]

This. It's all like millisecond optimization haha.

[maiden oar]

millisecond optimization goes crazy

[tepid trellis]

honestly not really, cuz that also means you can press mid global loosing uptime.

[tough umbra]

Damn, that is true. I didn't consider that.

[tepid trellis]

but it ofc depends on what you actually macro it to

[tough umbra]

I spam the fuck out of my buttons, that would fuck it up.

Basically that just means don't macro it to any damaging abilites, only pot/trink/racial/and dance.

[tepid trellis]

like dance+blades is fine cuz yeah they are both off global, but pressing them manually can also cause you to press them mid global so its just wide spread thing to be aware off

[warm marlin]

for midnight ill probably have dance/storm, dance/sectec, dance/blades/sectec and just wait for gcd to press them

[narrow shadow]

I think it's better practicing the normal rotation than relying on janky macros

[tepid trellis]

thats my take as well

[narrow shadow]

It's not hard these days anyway

[tepid trellis]

but ive always been that way

i avoid rotational macros like the plague

[tough umbra]

I wish I had your restraint. I cannot help but spam the fuck out of my button next up for GCD. I hit that bitch 5-6 times.

[tepid trellis]

but when it comes to Shadow step macros

[warm marlin]

takes getting used to

[tepid trellis]

then im a fiend

[warm marlin]

its nice on sub because you have a consistent 1s gcd

[short radish]

sub rogue has largely (still is somewhat) a spec about restraint

[warm marlin]

once you've played it a lot you have the clock in your head

[magic cliff]

Pls ignore coup

[warm marlin]

ya well

coup is an atrocity a bit

[magic cliff]

(unless they fixed the GCD)

[narrow shadow]

Anyone know if there is a big race disparity when it comes to dps?

[tepid trellis]

coup is mostly used in cases where the gcd increase is kinda w/e

[magic cliff]

It's got a fun animation anyway, so it's worth

[narrow shadow]

I hate it

[tepid trellis]

imma be real i dont look at my character a whole lot when i play

[warm marlin]

to be clear I also mash the rest of the time, i just stop and lock in for those presses when i know its macro time

took a couple weeks to get used to

[tepid trellis]

the Uni i went to had like an esport thing and they asked me to record eye tracking for a few raids

[maiden oar]

yea i wait for macro also

[tepid trellis]

and it was quite interesting

[maiden oar]

bc i noticed in s3 id miss a global sometimes bc of 2x coup

and manual shsdow dance pressing

so i am now committed to macroing and never missing

i will hit every gcd every time

[warm marlin]

for those applications macro is just better than a human can possibly ever be

[magic cliff]

Is that haste trinket on the table

Or is it safe to toss trinkets into a blades macro

[warm marlin]

it's kinda mid

[magic cliff]

Yeah I know it's underbudget

[warm marlin]

and having to manual press it is gonna be fun

it probably will be played early because alnseer will be mega contested

[magic cliff]

I've got a dedicated trinket keybind, all is well

[warm marlin]

and there won't be a ton of competition for the haste on use

[magic cliff]

I think we all want alnseer to get nerfed tbh

The variance on that thing is diabolical

Otherwise mythic splits

[maiden oar]

splitting the 1 boss raid should be really easy organization wise probably

ifnthe gear checks not insane

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/saruman-palantir-gif-19765279

[maiden oar]

think thats the least offensive mythic split

[chrome palm]

the classic mid point boss that gets its kneecaps removed after 1 week perhaps?

[warm marlin]

without those dirty weakauras trivializing everything that won't happen anymore!

[tepid trellis]

[chrome palm]

"im not carried by weakauras" i said before i definitely didnt get launched off the platform by dimensius

[maiden oar]

the circle on ur guy wa before puddle drops was so nice

and the circle on ur guy for rings

[tepid trellis]

im mostly just mad the UI not beeing as freely customizable and good looking

[tough umbra]

Is there a reason your first finisher out of stealth is always Eviscerate instead of BP even in AoE? I get with Coup up but why natty?

[warm marlin]

applies slice and dice through cut to the chase passive

[tough umbra]

https://tenor.com/view/think-about-it-use-your-brain-use-the-brain-think-brain-gif-7914082

[vale pine]

we will get there

[vale pine]

maybe i remember wrong, but didn't you use an opener macro at one point in time when playing a diffrent pec/class

[tribal blade]

i think the fact that i have slower reflexes makes me not have issues with the macros

or it's the fact that i'm very used to the 1 sec gcd

i haven't had the mid gcd issue

[dry plank]

And what was in result?

[vale pine]

its just force of habbit tbh

[tribal blade]

might be yeah

or i might be delaying things slightly

[vale pine]

i never had the problem of using dance off gcd

but i also played a lot of subtlety and tested things

[tribal blade]

actually kind of hard to say

[vale pine]

dance was broken many times

you needed to be very careful how you press it

so never rly developed a "spam" feeling

[tribal blade]

maybe the macro i used to spam like that the most was dance+strike

before they broke it

still miss that macro

[dry plank]

I have dance on same bind I have shadowstrike or backstab in stealth prev so could spam but now I mostly will use probably macroed dances not sure yet

Best option seems like use it with sectech on full sp and have farm sht but I didn’t play with recent changes so idk how is it

[lilac stag]

Your old CB Sectech is now dance Sectech

[hollow spear]

I got dance sectec, dance evis and have to find a good button for dance storm

[hardy snow]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[tribal blade]

yeah that's the move

that was a lightbulb moment for me

half the muscle memory already built for that bind

[tribal blade]

i just slapped dance+storm on my old rupture bind

surely this doesn't come around to haunt me if they reintroduce a dot back to sub later on

[hollow spear]

Might be the play for me

I kinda want to avoid the dance storm macro, but I feel like it sometimes comes up during blades

Maybe I'm bad

[tribal blade]

it's probably worth having

[hollow spear]

Yeah

Unfortunately

[tribal blade]

charrend was talking about how it might be a thing going into dances with either high or low CP based on your haste levels

also if you do mess up and don't have CPs right as sectec comes up you can just slam the storm+dance macro

obv less good than going into dance with high CP but less bad than delaying

[hollow spear]

Yeah delaying is not really a thing anymore

The flexibility is kinda gone

[daring marlin]

Is rogue worth coming back to the game in midnight? I didn't follow any updates regarding changes

[keen dome]

Yeah it's pretty cool and purple and we can transmog daggers to swords now

[lilac stag]

That’s literally something only you can decide for yourself

Or let Petko decide for you.

[daring marlin]

I watched some tier list videos today, he says outlaw is best st melee, is this correct

i don't believe him, i think he is baiting

Oh that's because the vid is 3 weeks old

[vale pine]

this is an up to date tier list

many specs sadly got changed/nerfed to be quite bad now

[keen dome]

The one true tier list.

[vale pine]

||Tier lists are sadly fairly bad metrics, they are abused for views and rarely hold any truth.
The list i linked is a parody, a list i created years ago in alphabetic order. It became a running joke.||

[daring marlin]

I remember sending this list to my guild discord, people debated on there is no way survival and shadow are s tier 😄

For me there is 2 tiers, rogue and others

[zealous current]

How can it be a list created years ago if there is devourer on it? 🤔

[vale pine]

i updated it

thats why

[scarlet heath]

new spec and is D tier? smh Blizzard what are you doing

[keen dome]

Yeah, they fucked up with that.

Should've called it Shadowguard

[scarlet heath]

fr

[short radish]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/1ravhs1/what_are_the_classes_you_love_thematically_but/

kinda funny how many times rogue is mentioned here

[dry plank]

The should’ve named new spec SomethingVoid

Than it’ll appear in S tier

[pallid jackal]

Does anyone know of a good addon to track Tempered potion and heroism buffs?

[tough canyon]

i'm blind, where is augmentation?

ye, found it, i knew i was blind

i would assume it would be N1 as it starts with A. Oh it only now dawned on me how this parody tier list works, i'm hella dumb

[glass berry]

Guys i mained sub rogue until now and am wondering if i should switch to augmentation evoker or stay with sub rogue. Is sub rogue gonna be one of the very best dps or hes gonna be mid. I heard aug evoker will be insanely strong and ai just want to play the meta for some time now so please help me decide. I just want to be the best in m+ and blast dmg all day

[tough canyon]

[short radish]

I honestly cant tell if pretending or not

Well done

[alpine wraith]

premium bait tbh

[vale pine]

"ai wants me" gave it away

[tough canyon]

ai just want to play
i just want to play* i assume, but could be AI, who knows

[hallow matrix]

If i stick a fractillus log in here, would one of you tell me if i'm doing something wrong with my rotation etc?

[vale pine]

just do a !log

[hallow matrix]

!log

Oh i had no idea that was a thing

[tough canyon]

😮 same, wild technology

[vale pine]

i can't promise you much tho, i personally don't have the time atm to review and people during the last week before xpac release are often less active in discord

[hallow matrix]

Yeah that's fair enough - if someone looks at it then that's great, if not i'm in the same position i'm in now so it's no worries

[west arch]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[proper dune]

I am curious about peoples cooldown manager for sub

think I need to tweak mine a bit

[dry plank]

It’s 3 spells dance sectech blades 🙂

[tribal blade]

Guys i mained sub rogue until now and am wondering if i should switch to augmentation evoker or stay with sub rogue. Is sub rogue gonna be one of the very best dps or hes gonna be mid. I heard aug evoker will be insanely strong and ai just want to play the meta for some time now so please help me decide. I just want to be the best in m+ and blast dmg all day

[proper dune]

yea, was more thinking of the utility cooldowns. We have so many of those 😄

[dry plank]

Show them all in prefered sequence

Like movement control and rest

[dry plank]

Remove distract and tricks

[lilac stag]

Guys i mained sub rogue until now and am wondering if i should switch to beast master hunter or stay with sub rogue. Is sub rogue gonna be one of the very best dps or is Dave gonna be mid. I heard bm hunter will be insanely strong and ai just want to play the meta for some time now so please help me decide. I just want to be the best in m+ and blast dmg all day

[dry plank]

And you basically good

[proper dune]

that does look cleaner indeed

[tribal blade]

dave gonna be blastin oh lawdy

[lilac stag]

Remove storm buff

[tribal blade]

true cd on tricks and distract both not necessary to see

esp for trickster cd on tricks is useless

[proper dune]

okay fair, i removed those

[lilac stag]

Hide all utility and only show on CD if you’re a pro Daver

[tribal blade]

i think there's a whole load on there you don't need on the bar in the middle of your screen

[lilac stag]

#noutilityvisible

[proper dune]

the utility ones?

[proper dune]

so it shows when it's on cd?

[tribal blade]

yeah i think a lot of the cc n stuff

at least for me

[lilac stag]

mmhm

[tribal blade]

this is a preference thing so there's no wrong answer

[hallow matrix]

Whats the purple bar? if its SHT why does it have 5 sections?

[proper dune]

I did think of that, but this is gonna be the first time I play with my spells/bars not visible

[lilac stag]

I just hate seeing more than what I need to

[lilac stag]

That’s the important number

[hallow matrix]

can you explain?

[proper dune]

ah didn't knew that was a thing. I will have a look at it if it's in cooldowns manager and see how that looks/performs

[tribal blade]

the only time you play around sht really is with the apex

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq message

[tribal blade]

striking at max cp in dance with 5 sht

to proc the apex

so he has his sht set to show 5

so he knows when he can do it

[lilac stag]

Or just link the faq

[tribal blade]

heehee

[lilac stag]

Blades covers sht when it’s active

[proper dune]

scAth, how do you make them go away and only show when on cd? I dont see that option

[lilac stag]

use a cdm addon like ArcUI

[proper dune]

ah I see

[lilac stag]

Blizzard = 💩

[proper dune]

I guess I could remove the combo points restored buff and shuriken aswell

[lilac stag]

sht stacks are worth tracking

Shuriken isn’t

[dry plank]

I use blizzard cdm it is fine. But resources bar are weird. Is it causing delays is fine?

[tribal blade]

i'm also using blizz's cdm, but the personal resource display is unacceptable

it's so bad

there's huge delay on CPs

so i'm using sensei's atm and that's the only addon i'm using for my UI

got suggested wangbar as well which i'm gonna set up some time this week

[hollow spear]

It's actually criminal

[dry plank]

My sensei is delaying as well

[tribal blade]

yeah it's horrible

[tribal blade]

yes there's delay on sensei too

[lilac stag]

it shouldn’t. Priority update speed in the settings.

[tribal blade]

https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/wangbar-resource-bars apparently this is better

[lilac stag]

outlaw had a slight delay

[dry plank]

I tryed also wang smth but it’s keep resetting every reload which is annoying

[dry plank]

Thanks I’ll try setting

[lilac stag]

if you go on Reddit /wowui someone came up with another one. Doesn’t have delay.

I tried to help him with rogue parts

it works for paladin and dk as well

can do circles or squares which is nice

[tribal blade]

it frankly pisses me off how bad the CP situation is on default UI

[lilac stag]

welcome to being a rogue

[tribal blade]

reeee

[lilac stag]

I swear they play it about as much as petko testing sub

[hollow spear]

Petko should just take fuu's pointers and put it in s tier

No testing required

[dire hare]

ive been using SenseiClassResourceBar

[median nacelle]

is there delay on the cps under ur default frame aswell? sometimes they randomly vanish and requires a reload too xD

[tribal blade]

no idea because i never look at those CPs

i always have my CPs set to be just above my target frame

but if they update the same as personal resource display then it's really bad

[median nacelle]

fair, ive been using em, they dont feel delayed to me /shrug

[tribal blade]

maybe those ones aren't delayed which makes it even more confusing

but using that bar would mean i would have to redo my entire UI because there's no way to move them off your personal frame

for some reason

[lilac stag]

The unit frame default are not delayed

[tidal blade]

we should always sandbag when communicating with tier listers

[tribal blade]

SO WHY IS THE PERSONAL RESOURCE DISPLAY DELAYED

/cry

[hollow spear]

You'd think the blizzard stuff was the fastest there is

[tribal blade]

thing is the personal resource display is also the ugliest thing on the default UI

so reskinning it makes a lot of sense

[hollow spear]

The cp are not centered

Therefore unusable

[tribal blade]

yeah it's confusingly bad

[hollow spear]

Haven't tried wangbar yet

[lilac stag]

Probably the same reason the addons are. Responding to the display of the generated resource instead of reading the resource generation directly.

[tribal blade]

that sounds cursed af

[lilac stag]

resource bar was their first attempt at skinning

[hollow spear]

Sounds like they hired me to program stuff

[lilac stag]

and then we had the cursed cp fill at random rates

they just suck at programming

and likely just keep putting “good work” on top of old bad code.

instead or redoing it proper

[vale pine]

they probably use a diffrent api

i don't know the interface code sadly

[tribal blade]

more sketti code

[lilac stag]

I’ll always go back to absolutely no one wanting to redo the auction house due to how interwoven it was into so much of the game that it would just break everything.

[vale pine]

my honest opinion

i would honestly start to re-write the entire game slowly

there are problems at each layer of the engine and it seems in tooling too

e.g. modern databases can handle millions of transactions with little compute, means modernizing to new and upcomming technologies would make it handle the load with a breeze on existing hardware or even allow the server to be scaled down

[alpine wraith]

yea wow broadcasting has a big problem in its antiquity

it kinda krangles the netcode likely

[vale pine]

a lot of wow's problem is architectural

e.g. unless something changed very recent

[willow lance]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[alpine wraith]

yes every time someone procs something or updates

it ends up in everyone's clients and the server

[hollow spear]

It's obviously not a database, but my company still runs on Excel 2019 and I used 365 privately. The difference is like night and day how they handle stuff. Probably comparable to how much better wow could run.

[vale pine]

a lot of talents/spells cause multiple events

think of poisons applying every auto attack, bleed ticks, proc effects etc

[tribal blade]

is that what causes all the fps issues?

[vale pine]

the modern wow design often sacrafice efficiency for the sake of complexity

so e.g. in bfa

[hollow spear]

So you're saying that they should just delete rogue to improve everyone's performance? 🤔

[alpine wraith]

yea that is why in classic tbc and even wrath you could kinda 100 v 100

[vale pine]

evis was a one part attck, its a static damage instance

[alpine wraith]

not as many procs and most things were icd

[tribal blade]

mmmm gothca

yeah the fps issue in wow is getting tiresome

[vale pine]

now you have evis cause a avalanche of secondary effects and gets impacted by multiple other sources

which means, what previousely was one network call (combat log event)

[alpine wraith]

yea every time you use an ability now there are so many checks

[vale pine]

can now be 8 or 10 or even more

[alpine wraith]

and packets have a limited capability

[dry plank]

I think there only unit tests playing rogue and manuals are just skip rogue and monks. On monks cdm there is no hit combo to track but has mastery 🙂

[alpine wraith]

so they dont even fit in one then you get compute into the picture too

[hollow spear]

Do you feel like fps have improved with the changes or did it get worse?

[vale pine]

fps got better

because blizz killed weakauras, plater and elvui

the api costs got more expensive

[tribal blade]

my game got a lot better without WAs

[vale pine]

but if you don't have addons making multiple expensive calculations

[tribal blade]

mine in particular i had a lot of old WAs and frankenstein shit

my UI was a mess

[vale pine]

you can cut down on overall performance impact addons can have

[tribal blade]

so that definitely added to fps issues

[hollow spear]

Uninstalling elvui was big for me

[tribal blade]

i noticed a considerable boost in my game running without WAs

[hollow spear]

I removed it during ovinax prog

[vale pine]

so the irony is, the game runs better only for people who relied heavily on elvui/plater/weakauras

[tribal blade]

yeah i can imagine elvui is horrible to run

[vale pine]

but potentially even slightly worse for everyone else

[tribal blade]

depending on your setup

[alpine wraith]

wow mass fights will still be a mess

[vale pine]

elvui now is way better

as mentioned

[alpine wraith]

even if we have less buttons the one we have still proc lots of shit

[vale pine]

if you can't do the expensive stuff, because its not allowed

[alpine wraith]

and even more with hero talents and apex to the mix now

[vale pine]

you can't waste similar amounts of ressources

[tribal blade]

yeah i had a bunch of WAs that were years old

many years old

a mix of stuff

[vale pine]

its crazy to think about it

[hollow spear]

Hold my beer

[tribal blade]

my sht tracker was something someone made during DF beta that i frankensteined into my UI

[vale pine]

but simply using an addon instead of a weakaura would already cut compute costs by 2/3

so addons had actually only 33% of the weakaura costs

assuming the same code

the diffrence was many time even higher

[tribal blade]

i noticed the longer my game ran the more resources WAs would take up

not sure if that was normal or not

[vale pine]

e.g. plater vs. nameplatekai

was something around 30 times the cost

that was with standard plater settings

could be 40-50x if you had custom scripts, etc

[tribal blade]

this is why i'm so eager to play with mostly default UI

[vale pine]

but thats the beuty of computing

*beauty

something can be 50x or even 300x slower

it does not matter unless we have a situation it becames noticable/relevant

and even then, we can use clever tricks to work around it

a good example is again plater, you find a script that dissables certain functions and nameplates

because it caused performance issues during raids

[hollow spear]

I'll probably try to do wangbar plus a lightweight nameplate addon, plus whatever bossmod alternative is meta

[vale pine]

what i mean is an addon you can still find on curseforge

tho as mentioned, midnight actually makes it harder to make addons inefficient

[tribal blade]

i'm using platynator atm, it's pretty good

[vale pine]

which was it seems the reason the addon purge happened

at least thats my hot take on it

[hollow spear]

Any special functionality?

Will look it up

[tribal blade]

not particularly, but it does all the stuff i need for my nameplates

[jolly sleet]

honestly the designer is quite useful

[tribal blade]

and using it wasn't too complicated to figure out which is a massive win in my book

[hollow spear]

Yeah I like intuitive setups

[jolly sleet]

its a mode in which you can move the part of an exmple nameplate around and set it up to your liking without having a thousand 1px sliders

[hollow spear]

Don't have the nerve to do a phd on my ui anymore

[tribal blade]

yeah being able to visually see it is fire

[hollow spear]

That sounds promising

[tribal blade]

the issue a lot of addons have is they use technical jargon to tell you what does what

[jolly sleet]

the only other addon i've seen with the same idea is a neat little UI-enhancer which is orbit

[tribal blade]

and if you don't understand the language it's so difficult

platynator in the designer you kinda drag and drop stuff

and can visually see it

click on things you want to change

i would like to see more addons work like how platynator does in design mode