subtlety

[alpine wraith]

crit dmg was 40% instead of 20%

so they fixed it and deathstalker lost about 6 to 5% dps

[cyan lava]

Surely there was enough feedback that it felt bad when there was only 1

They haven’t started doing anything with items yet, there’s still time

I’m coping real hard

[hazy breach]

Theres a crit one too

Its just tuned lower than the haste one

[chrome palm]

Surprised potion isn’t nerfed yet

[alpine wraith]

yea potions seem so weird

[cyan lava]

Honestly I think the potion being super strong is an interesting concept that they could keep around

[chrome palm]

It needs to clear on entering a dungeon

[tame flint]

I keep reading things about macros for Sub? Im thinking of picking it back up for some funnies here for a few weeks? are they located anywhere?

[hazy breach]

#subtlety-faq

[hearty cedar]

Hey Eleem, can I pick your brain for a second?

[eager latch]

[hearty cedar]

I was messing with my Rogue's Haste and I noticed that the math wasn't adding up (or I just did the math wrong) for the timer for Shadow Dance + Deepening Shadows + The First Dance. At 35% haste, it should take the total to 9.15 secs + 3 (First Dance) to 12.15secs. I have 28% Haste and it should be 8.52 secs + 3 secs to 11.52 secs but I am at 7.9 seconds and with First Dance I am at 11.9. Why is the math changing after adding The First Dance to the list when it should be the base duration of Shadow Dance (6 seconds). Is this a bug? Or is my math wrong.

[radiant swift]

is there an issue with macroing dance + stec? at times it wont go off despite being in range and having enouhg cp + energy

but after a second press it does

[warm marlin]

haste increases the duration of tfd as well

[hearty cedar]

Yeah, I took tfd off and the math had it at 8.52 seconds before tfd, but in-game it was 7.9 secs

[warm marlin]

and it only uses actual haste rating, so alacrity + baseline haste is not going to increase it

[hearty cedar]

Ah okay

[plush roost]

insert dramatic music

sub better den arcane?

click here to find out how!

(he died)

[radiant swift]

how many times

[plush roost]

twice

[radiant swift]

and u didnt die once?

[plush roost]

i died once

but it was end of pull so doesnt count

[alpine wraith]

being tanky is our style

[radiant swift]

oh so its only half fcked

[shell willow]

Lol @plush roost you are also the peak of sub rogue so if it took two deaths for you to best the arcane the rest of us are fcked

[sick basin]

It's okay, Arcane is gonna get slapped here anytime in the next few weeks and then he will beat it without deaths 😉

[chrome palm]

sub is a lot more buff dependent than arcane

namely war/sham neither of which are here

[plush roost]

Skyfury war 10% gain :^)

Touch chaos brand notsomuch

[chrome palm]

im calling it even since the mage has his

[grand wyvern]

don't get us nerfed again thanks

[plush roost]

9% inc

Sorry but it must be done the assa agenda is being pushed

[chrome palm]

wtf

no man we get 2 weeks of being good

then its assa

the rest of the tier

[plush roost]

In compensation we shall buff ds momentum by 5%

Problem solved

[twin quartz]

They’ll nerf caustic spatter again, and it’ll still end up the preferred spec

Just wait

[chrome palm]

theyll just make every add in the raid have 5 hp

then assa will be good

[plush roost]

Nerubar palace after squish moment

[hazy breach]

Not even, more like 13%

Playing without shaman is just doomed

[plush roost]

Nah we will simply be so overpowered that we sont needem

[jolly crescent]

May I have your UI profile? 🙂
Or maybe yours @swift tinsel

[normal compass]

question for the Apex talent optimization for AOE vs ST, when youre trying to proc ancient art in AOE, do you shadow strike over SS, or hit SS cause its AOE

[plush roost]

If you have a priority target and want it dead, strike. Otherwise SS. Also strike in 2 target.

Outside of dance at 5+ sht u can shiv in aoe for a free finisher, small gain

[normal compass]

okay thats what i thought, just wanted to make sure. I was comparing logs and my wasted combo points seemed way higher than others but i was playing around that interaction. not sure if they were

[plush roost]

U end up wasting a lot of cp in aoe is what it is

[warm marlin]

last i checked its not worth doing storm for the apex thing, it's strike only

rather more bps

(strike to proc it for bp up to 4-5 targets, otherwise just storm bp bp)

[lapis hatch]

What’s the sub coup macro? Just showtooltip
/cast coup
/cast black powder ?

[tepid trellis]

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder
yeh

[torn tide]

maybe u did it during gcd?

happens to me sometimes cuz i just started using the macro recently

[alpine wraith]

remember to put that one in your bar that is not stealth

so it does not change

[tame terrace]

what the helly? is this just so u can just spam bp and not worry about pressing evis button for coup

[shadow crag]

so we wanna start Dance with high combo points when playing trickster... does this mean we intentionally delay Secret Technique and/or Shadowblades?

[alpine wraith]

no you look at sec tech cd

then if it is like 5 secs away you get to full cp then pool

[shadow crag]

got it thanks

[alpine wraith]

also you may need to delay blades dance sometimes because if you use dance on cd

[shadow crag]

that makes more sense haha

[alpine wraith]

you would have dance on like 3s cd when you use the first

and finish it

[fleet acorn]

Deathstalker and trickster I always start Like These

• Tricks tank
• shroud raid
• shadowstrike
• all in one macro with Sectet technique

And I’m gucci from there
Get it out quick to get it back quick
No reason to start dancing with 0 cp

[shadow crag]

didn't play sub since shadowlands.... feels really good to be back again. even tho the specc changed it still is really fun. Teleporting around with shadowstrike and shadowstep will never get old.

[vagrant fulcrum]

Real talk, is it just me or is deathstalker a lot of nothing-burger for sub? The one thing is not pressing sectec with DN but tbh idk if playing that is even a notable gain

[fringe verge]

Hey guys, have not been in touch with the beta in the last couple of weeks. How are things turning out for us in general? (Disregarding tuning)

[keen dome]

Less buttons to press so more time to think about how cool we look during dance with the purple aura.

[fringe verge]

Well that is a net positive I assume? 😄

[void ocean]

its copium 😄

[vale pine]

wdym nothing burger

deathstalker is currently noticable ahead in st

midnight changes that, and puts trickster ahead everywhere

[lilac stag]

It’s always been an afterthought.

[vale pine]

which means deathstalker currently is kind of the best option especially for raiding

[lilac stag]

prepatch…

[vale pine]

gameplay wise, hmm

[lilac stag]

It’s taken sub 90 second kill times, little to no adds and an indirect nerf to trickster (cp cdr) to have us playing in for 5 weeks that matter for nothing.

[vale pine]

tbh i mean, the tuning changes next reset also seem meh

will probably nose dive subtleties paly rate

[sinful zephyr]

Good morning, I have a question regarding the latest pin? Does that refer to lvl 80 or do we get less points in the capstone area on lvl 90?

[alpine wraith]

that is for prepatch

as we level to 90 we can talent them back

[vale pine]

the gate moves with the reset

so we lose 2 points in the last gate

[sinful zephyr]

ok great...had a little shock 😄

[vale pine]

but gain 2 in the one before

which means

once we can level to 90

we don't have to re-distribute the 2 points, but can simply start asap

[shadow crag]

Nice, you actually die on Dimensius when you cast Shadowstrike out of Vanish.

well I did so in the last phase and got pulled down into the black hole

but maybe it was a fail from me

[void ocean]

if u stand in melee range u shouldnt be going anywhere

if u step out a bit then yes, u r in for a ride

[shadow crag]

yeah, in melee range I would have been fine thats true

[alpine wraith]

that is a rite of passage as sub

[glacial hinge]

The classic Sstrike and death combo

[hollow spear]

Doesn't hold a candle to the coup charge into the ansurek web suck

[stoic pawn]

ey fuu, why the low combo point thing?

Vanish - Can be used as an offensive cooldown to cast one additional Eviscerate. Make sure to be on low combo points when doing so. However, I recommend not using it offensively in case you want to use it as an escape cooldown when accidentally pulling too many enemies.

[void ocean]

did Gally have those weird range issues where ud get ported even if u were in melee

actually that entire raid had super weird shadowstep issues

Lockenstock, try using shadowstep to mitigate knockback, end up in Narnia

[radiant swift]

theres nothing wirh a gcd before - think it was range

[hazy breach]

Premeditation

[stoic pawn]

so you dont vanish->evis
you vanish>shadowstrike evis

[hazy breach]

You strike after vanish yes

[stoic pawn]

ok with the additional eviscerate I understood that with low combos you vanish and insta evis, and didnt get why haha

[vale pine]

vanish procs premeditation, so you vanish and your next generator puts you on full cp

ill check the guide if i worded it confusing somewhere later

[vagrant fulcrum]

I mean it has basically no gameplay or thematic even, DN doesn’t feel good on sub like it did for sin

The performance atm is optimal and not super horrific like in nerubar on sikran

[slate marlin]

well ds is the most thematic hero talent

for rogue

[vale pine]

i mean thats the gist of midnight

gameplay is supposed to be simple

[austere spear]

is it worth always trying to supercharge darkest night in pre patch/beta? or just let it happen as youre gonna be spamming evis a lot anyhow

[vale pine]

just let it happen naturally

[torn tide]

is apex gonna buff our dps alot in midnight? cuz it seems like its gonna be a refund system so more dps right?

[tribal blade]

significantly more dps for sure

[torn tide]

sick

[void ocean]

we r S-tier bro, what did u expect

[wild hornet]

hmm

[void ocean]

https://giphy.com/gifs/9PAIhJvcQ35hdZPUir

[open coyote]

how much dps do you guys do at the end of dungeons?

if some of you have some ss's for me to compare a bit with

[vale pine]

deathstalker with DN feels a lot worse in dungeons

[lilac stag]

Look at logs on wcl

[open coyote]

do people log m+ runs?

[vale pine]

usually not

[torn tide]

frfr shouldnt have even questioned it

[vale pine]

deathstalker is slightly better during pre patch, once we get more talents, it falls behind

[junior lintel]

Yo guys, i'm gearing my alt and have all dinars ready to use - can buy mythic trinkets from raid and dungeon. What trinkets should i opt for atm?

focusing on raid atm

[austere spear]

forgotten sky and sack

err sreams/sack

[junior lintel]

sack from streets?

[austere spear]

yeah our bis prepatch trinkets are pinned in this channel

[junior lintel]

Wow, im an idiot. Thanks though ❤️

[hollow forum]

Mostly all logs use Forge and Projector,but i think its cause they already spend dinars,if they were lucky with vaults to get mythic track sack or sky

[shrewd lantern]

sub 2min kills tend to be good for those two

[hollow forum]

tru tru

[rocky lake]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

forge is rly good on fast kill timers

so not a bad option

[open coyote]

how screwed am i if i have 15% haste instead of 35

[vale pine]

you are not screwed at all

the content is trivial

you don't need super optimized gear

[wheat elk]

at what point you think interviewing devs would be possible to ask them what type of drugs they are on when they do the buffs and nerfs

or like what is their criteria

[lilac stag]

Just ask CoPilot

[haughty mural]

relax - we dont do that here

[wheat elk]

i just feel like after df season 1 where we had almost every spec close to eachother it all went downhill

[lilac stag]

If an 8% pre-release nerf is going to get you in a bunch, rogue ain’t the class for you.

[wheat elk]

explain something, if devs do the tunning as shitty as it is possible every tier, are we not able to complain at all?

like at some point you gotta get out of your bubble of "it's pre patch there is still time left"

[vale pine]

buffs and nerfs are probably based on beta statistics not pre patch

pre patch for better or worse is irrelevant

[upbeat smelt]

Any of those BiS trinkets purchasable through turbo boost?

I gotta say my only gripe with sub is the aoe rotation in M+

[lilac stag]

This class will never be meta in m+ unless its dmg output is overtuned compared to any dps with a sliver more utility.

Raid - You’ll take 1 rogue in every fight. Likely 2 if you have them available. Each spec has a defined profile that can be used to its advantage based on the fight.

[upbeat smelt]

Idk doesn't feel great, I like BP, but to go SS>BP 8 times in a row sucks

[lilac stag]

Tuning is irrelevant until we start actually raiding.

[vale pine]

thats intentional

[wheat elk]

im not talking about this pre patch at all, it just seems like this kind of unfair or maybe even out of place tunning has been going on for a while, no?

[vale pine]

blizz cut down on complex rotations, by removing or reworking talents which lead to gameplay changes

[upbeat smelt]

Id say 1-2 weeks after season 1 start you can worry about tuning.

[vale pine]

so, what is left storm + bp spam

[upbeat smelt]

I hear you

[wheat elk]

believe me im there with you, my whole argument is that why these tunnings happen the way they are

[upbeat smelt]

Idk Im thinking about switching to tanks, I went into this thinking I was going to, but then I tried rogue and I never mained one so changed plans.

But getting into M+s can be very frustrating, I have a tight window to play after kids go to bed, and spending all that time to get into a group is not ideal l.

[lilac stag]

S3, get back to me when we’re arms warriors or back to BFA SuB

[lilac stag]

Don’t play dps then. Tanks control groups and have little to no wait time.

[upbeat smelt]

Ya I know, but I dont wanna. I want to have no wait time as rogue lol.

[torn tide]

so trickster will overall be better in midnight then

[lilac stag]

Enjoy delves

[plush roost]

While its not #complexity you can choose to forgo storm and use shadowstrike for more priority damage. You can also shiv outside of dance at 5+ sht with no ancient art proc for efficient cp. Theres also intentionally not couping without an apex proc

[upbeat smelt]

I would enjoy more if I could get myth gear from them. But I gotta give it to blizz they are a pretty fun time.

[vale pine]

probably yes

there is no absolute atm

tuning is not done

[lilac stag]

gearing = play time (for the most part). Even if you sit in LFG for 1 10 you can get mythic gear. You’re also less desirable if your ilvl, io etc are all lower than the 3737594832 other dps in que

Enjoy real life. Do what you can in wow.

don’t get jealous of the 12 hour HoF raiders no-lifing 2+ weeks outsiming in a class discord.

[upbeat smelt]

Oops meant that for you, righto.

[pastel nacelle]

That’s what I realized after DF. There is no point tryharding, just having fun playing class you love most.
At some point most of us will stop playing this game anyway

[torn tide]

either that or the game will die

i wonder how long wow will go for, its been 20+ years

[pastel nacelle]

I remember how fun assa was on last season df. Then they nerfed it to the ground.

But I don’t remember ppl stacking rogues

Like they were doing with other classes for dmg

[pastel nacelle]

That’s also possibility

[lilac stag]

I’m fortunate I have a place to raid 2 nights a week and still get CE more times than not. Raiding takes a back seat to dog training and whatever travels that sends me on.

Have to find balance one way or another and work around it best you can. There are a crap ton of guilds that have what I call parent friendly raids.

[haughty mural]

no

[pastel nacelle]

If you really want CE and you are comitted guild ranked around 700-1000 are fine

They are most laid back

For work - life - game balance

[astral pewter]

Ive noticed sub has way more energy problems when not going the energy tea route, am i right?

at least from previous iteration

[lilac stag]

You would have had 2 rogues in manaforge for NK & Dimmy if they had them

You’re wrong

[vale pine]

thats intentional

[lilac stag]

There is zero energy issues

[vale pine]

think of it like this

you just came home from a 24h shift of work because you had to take the shift of your college which suddenly became ill

thats subtlety outside of cooldowns

[astral pewter]

I guess it has to do with shadow dance being shorted?

but lower cooldown

[vale pine]

you drag along, barely holding your eyes open and sometimes do something that might be productive

[lilac stag]

We had less energy in S3

[vale pine]

and then there is shadow dance

[lilac stag]

We’re in dance more

[vale pine]

its like a adrenalin injection

think of it like injecting red pull directly in your veins

[lilac stag]

play outlaw if you need 4 more apm

[vale pine]

your eyes blast open, you are super focues and can do everything at once

thats basically subtlety

during cooldowns you swim in ressouces

outside you are starved

[astral pewter]

ehm idk previously i used to be able to get way more shadowstrike + evis in a dance window, but now i guess u have more dances but theyre less duration

[fringe geyser]

!plater

[vale pine]

but you are ~50% of the time in cooldowns

[vale pine]

we don't have a palter profile, sorry

[lilac stag]

how are you getting more in when Dance is 6 seconds

[astral pewter]

i think it also feels bad because backstab is just a shit spell

[pastel nacelle]

My memory is bad then. Weren’t some classes still better?

[fringe geyser]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Rogue WA's:
Wago.io TWW Rogue
For more specific Rogue WeakAuras, run the !wa command in your preferred specialization channel.

[pastel nacelle]

Im not tracking this rosters anymore

Like I was

[astral pewter]

i mean since theyre 2 charges now with short cooldown

compared w before

[lilac stag]

It’s not supposed to feel good out of dance. The better that feels the worse dance feels and dance is the entire purpose of this spec.

[fringe geyser]

there were platynator and plater profiles somewhere few days ago

[lilac stag]

again play outlaw if you want everything to feel good all the time

and enjoy your flat dmg

[astral pewter]

bro lmao i dont wanna play outlaw

im just curious

i just came back from months break

[slate marlin]

sd duration is increased by haste too

[lilac stag]

short CDs = short time out of CDs have to feel different. What’s the opposite of great? That’s what out of dance should feel like.

welcome back.

[astral pewter]

also is the new cold blood any good compared to old one?

[sick sand]

what's the build for beta m+ with the latest changes?

[lilac stag]

#subtlety-faq

[vale pine]

it is good yes

[astral pewter]

im gonna play around with it for a while, it probably just has to stick with me

[astral pewter]

oki

glad rupture is gone, wish theyd keep flag though

[lilac stag]

Ask why did you quit rogue / wow before? If it’s game related, nothing has changed. All three rogue specs are still the same at their base. Just less cognitive load than before across the board.

[astral pewter]

I had my sub rogue as an alt just before i took a wow break, thought itd be beneficial b4 midnight bcs i get burned out easily

i never played assa or outlaw

rupture just felt out place as sub essentially imo

[lilac stag]

you’ve got the same grind for gear, if not possibly slower

outside of that it’s more of the same

just easier

[burnt loom]

well sub is way more playable now, i had to swap to assa for world quests/delves etc just coz 1 minute cd on dances was terrible. it's a lot more better now

[astral pewter]

yeah i think overall this is better for sub and rogue in general

[lilac stag]

Or harder if you relied on WAs to make the game playable due to vision/hearing issues

[astral pewter]

nah im good on that front, it was just the cd/energy i was confused about

[tepid trellis]

with decent amount of haste dance will also be longer than it was before

9 globals vs 8

[shadow lance]

You mean > 35%?

Not sure how we gonna reach that season 1

[echo ridge]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[lilac stag]

You’ll hit 587~684 in mythic gear quite easy

[tepid trellis]

%s gets squished when we level

its just based on the actual haste stat

[tepid trellis]

considering im at 400 on prepatch, then yeah

really easily

[tulip light]

how much of a "loss" is entering dance with 6+ cp as deathstalker?

[lilac stag]

People also need to understand dance length isn’t the important part. Globals in dance is. Don’t focus on getting 9 seconds of dance or whatever.

[lilac stag]

It’s prepatch. Don’t worry about it. Get s as many sectechs off in the sub minute kills as you can

[shadow lance]

Nice table

[lilac stag]

Eleems

[shadow lance]

But yes, you don't need that much stats for extra gcd

[shadow lance]

I don't see how it could be a loss, unless you go in dance at 6 cp with dn up

scAth gonna tell me if I'm wrong

[hollow spear]

Playing deathstalker is a sanity loss in the first place

I hope trickster will just be the go to spec

[shadow lance]

Playing DS on ST boss can't be that annoying

[kind edge]

I will be on my pc only tomorrow if you still need.

Doing 16h shift rn.

[lilac stag]

Nah I’m just gonna say the robot works but I don’t think anything was really deep dove into for prepatch. Considering the TCs respond with for why low CP with DS sims better, just get the sectechs out and pray for crits.

people way too worried about prepatch

[stone vessel]

I'm confused... does a supercharged CP count as 2 or 3 CP?

[void ocean]

gotta love excel gaming

[lilac stag]

I don’t mind it

it’s just visual representation of the data

[shadow lance]

Sure thing, I didn't check for prepatxh cuz... prepatch

But you don't understand why going in danse as DS with full cp would be a dps loss

[void ocean]

yea but how is this intuitive...

[shadow lance]

Game numbers are just fucked I guess

[lilac stag]

How is simming a toon with outside of the game resources intuitive?

get 680 haste to get 2 more casts off in dance seems way more intuitive and approachable

[void ocean]

i meant more like if u r a new guy whos not on a discord and just made ur first sub rogue... all u gonna now that ur SD seems longer and longer the better ur gear gets

[lilac stag]

if you that new you’re putting on ilvl and calling it a day. Reading what does what for talents (even with poor tooltips) is something that should be (and isn’t) done.

[tepid trellis]

smth smth more shadowstrike oomph

[lilac stag]

I should look at see if my 1 min sim still wants low cp dance.

[chrome palm]

You’re not gonna randomly guess stat breakpoints of course

[void ocean]

also does being mid way feel like a dick kicking experience

[lilac stag]

it’s literally going to be here are the hard break points. Sim your gear. Sub rogues all of the sudden having to look at haste values while this has been part of the game for every 1.5 gcd spec

[lilac stag]

You won’t notice it

[void ocean]

like if u put on enough haste for 0.7 globals its gonna be horrible for ocd

[lilac stag]

hell s3 people didn’t know they were missing globals in dance.

and then you had 13 dance macros

[chrome palm]

Yeah but needing a super specific amount of haste isn’t equivalent

To like mastery being good until ~20k like last season

[lilac stag]

insert no amount of haste will make out of dance combat feel better meme

[vale pine]

people did know they lost globals in s3

we just did not urge people to use macros

which we now start to do

[lilac stag]

I’d argue the majority did not

[chrome palm]

It’s not quite the same

By design you are forcing a tight dance window

[lilac stag]

most don’t know how to show dance length in wcl

[void ocean]

what if i have a vault item that gives mre 0.7 global and it looks like a dps loss in sim but adding a second item that bumps me over 1 extra global should be a gain... but i dont take the first item cause it wasnt beneficial

[chrome palm]

Instead of incidentally having a tier set which makes an existing bug* problematic

[vale pine]

its complicated

because 0.2 sec coup is very diffrent

[lilac stag]

So like every season of taking biggest impact now vs playing long term gearing?

[vale pine]

than having a dynamic duration

you might not lose a global in

[void ocean]

i dont think it was this discrete

[chrome palm]

This haste shit is cooked ngl

[lilac stag]

it has always been a what do I take now vs long term. Normal tier for bonus or let’s say bis neck

How you gear is individual based on content and loot distribution.

none of that is changing because of haste being relevant

[void ocean]

its pushing it too an extreme imho

[lilac stag]

if anything haste being relevant makes gearing easier to swap between sub & outlaw which are the two specs I’d say most are likely going to play

[lilac stag]

How? You’re still simming your gear. Nothing else is “extreme”

oh no. I have to redo enchants and a gem.

meanwhile people in here changing weapon enchants every fight

[void ocean]

cause if +1000 haste is 1 gcd and u get +900 haste item u will see nothing... the only comparable situation is the tier set situation as u said, but its way more intuitive

[vale pine]

i just casually mention that race can have a higher impact than trinket choice

[lilac stag]

That’s 3 gcds. Lol

[void ocean]

like u need to know to take that +900 haste item and leave it on the side for when u get another item which will bump u over 1000

i dont know the numbers just painting the picture

put w/e number

[lilac stag]

You’re aiming for ~680 haste in s1 which is easily achievable. The numbers matter because you’re painting an extreme picture that does not exist in reality

[solar gull]

Use your own key

[void ocean]

i meant more like use w/e number it requires for 1 gcd

[lilac stag]

680 is 2 additional casts in dance

You need -180 for 1 cast

literally play with your enchants.

[void ocean]

yea, i wouldnt have problems with it, im just arguing how all this is in line with their desire to make things simpler to understand for new folks

if it was up to me i wouldnt mind things staying complex

[jolly crescent]

When I tested the 0.2 margin was insufficient… needed 0.27 to be safe.

And for coup I needed 0.6 (total, so about 0.3s more than normal)

[lilac stag]

gearing is still the same for new folk. Out on ilvl. When you want more you seek out more info.

[chrome palm]

personally the bigger issue is just that it doesnt play well

having to macro dance to everything is just annoying

[lilac stag]

how sub played for many tiers

Dance + X

[chrome palm]

not the same as, dance+strike being a damage loss

due to unavoidable latency

[lilac stag]

You’d do Dance + strike if it worked

like we did for years

[chrome palm]

it doesnt work, that is the issue

[lilac stag]

So instead of strike it’s something else.

You’re still pressing 1 button

[chrome palm]

not quite, because now you need at least 3 dance macros

[lilac stag]

dance plus backstab was so great hahah

[chrome palm]

if youre in blades youll want a macro for both secret technique and evis

or bp if you really dont want to miss damage

thats not the same as being able to spam dance and then follow it up with any attack at ~200ms delay

its much more tedious in my opinion

and maybe you have ping

that just makes it worse

its a precarious design that i look forward to being reworked

[lilac stag]

which you’re entitled to, doesn’t mean we have to agree on it. Game change. Change bad. Macros back to being part of sub.

them reworking sub

this was our rework

[chrome palm]

i think i had like 5 dance macros for dimensius

that shit was aids

[zenith wedge]

the spec has three buttons. If you're trivializing over macros like come on

[chrome palm]

well thats also the thing

[lilac stag]

you have less now. 🇼

[chrome palm]

when there is less gameplay in the spec, you scrutinize smaller and smaller parts of the gameplay

[hollow spear]

Dance macros suck

[chrome palm]

so now youre pulling hairs about stance delay

[zenith wedge]

i dont think a macro or not is going to matter much for clearing the content you want

[hollow spear]

Never used them before s3 and didn't lose globals

[lilac stag]

Your were doing this last tier as well. Hense the macros

[chrome palm]

thats the issue! im saying its awful

i didnt like it last season either

but all they had to do to fix that was fix a bug

now its the actual design of the spec

[hollow spear]

Just because the status quo was shit, doesn't mean that you have to accept the same type of shit haha

[chrome palm]

ikr

[lilac stag]

you at least have some control over it now with haste values.

Why do we have a 1.2 sec coup
Why can’t we strike after dance
Why is shadow dmg constantly cooked

This isn’t a haste issue. Or a small haste breakpoint issue.

[chrome palm]

why we cant strike after dance is only caused by the haste scaling

[lilac stag]

It shit coding

[chrome palm]

the haste scaling and input lag which was previously not a big deal

[lilac stag]

Nah. There should be zero delay just like dance storm, evis and everything else

That’s blizzard fucking something up in DF

[chrome palm]

no i agree that the existing issues make it worse

[zenith wedge]

We got some half cooked spec. They put in those initial changes in saw that everyone hated it and threw this thing together at the last second. Then went on christmas break.

[lilac stag]

The input lag was a big deal for fitting in globals last tier which was circumvented by using a non stealth ability in dance.

Now we just said fuck it and use the finisher since we don’t control it with sod

[chrome palm]

well you only ever started with strike last tier for fw

the input lag wasnt huge in general since you were starting with stab typically anyways

or often a finisher

[lilac stag]

[zenith wedge]

They'll still tune us high because that is their philosophy with rogue since the dragonflight reworks it seems. Put bare minimum to get it functional and tune it to do good dmg.

[lucid jackal]

You should just get off rogue if thats ur mentality perma

[zenith wedge]

nah I still enjoy it, but its just the reality. They seem lost at where they want to design the rogue specs

[lilac stag]

all three specs have very clear dmg profiles

Must be a design issue

[lucid jackal]

What does that even mean

What seems lost deisng wise on rogue

[lilac stag]

The spec doesn’t play exactly how x wants it to, so spec design is lacking.

[zenith wedge]

they just spent 3 years trying to figure out how to incoprorate stealth into all three specs only to give up

[lucid jackal]

Heres a thought right

They tried something, people didnt like it, so they are trying something else

Bad idea? Good idea?

[uneven scarab]

https://tenor.com/view/boom-gif-20562682

[lilac stag]

Assa hates stealth in m+. Seems like they took feedback and adjusted it

[uneven scarab]

Change in the mind of the wow community

[lilac stag]

bliz also hates rogues

[chrome palm]

i will say that blizzard does seem a little lost on rogue in terms of identity

[lucid jackal]

Yeah like

Idk

[lilac stag]

outlaw isn’t 87 apm, fuck you blizzard

[lucid jackal]

They did stealth interactions for a bit, it didn't pan out perfectly, they are now trying different design space

Why is this like, seen as a bad thing lol

[lilac stag]

also let me complain about outlaw uptime while being 87 apm

[uneven scarab]

I personally liked when the three specs all had dance, i thought it was fun. But if youve ever played wow before nothin typically stays one way for that long, obviously something new would eventually come

[zenith wedge]

not saying its a bad thing I'm saying they seem a little lost on where to put rogue. This current sub design is not inspired at all. They were leaning heavy into the cdr with sub and not that is mostly gone and replaced with this haste gives cdr nosense

[lucid jackal]

Yeah exactly

I don't understand the correlation between being "lost on design" and "taking stealth away"

All the specs kinda do their own thing rn idk

[uneven scarab]

Yeah imo none of them are really even stealth based anymore

Kinda all have their own lane

[lucid jackal]

Sin is about bleeds and 2 minutes
Outlaw is about spamming with no major CD
Sub is about micro CDs and 1:30

[uneven scarab]

Which is fine

[zenith wedge]

lost on design is putting a complete sub rework in october getting backlash and reverting it to what we have now

[lucid jackal]

It wasn't reverted tho

[lilac stag]

they made lust something you can actually feel a little bit now on sub. Damn you!

[chrome palm]

having secret technique come up semi randomly in blades does not feel good

[uneven scarab]

Tbh my only complaint is secret atm

ya

[lilac stag]

give us a 45 sec cd to insta reset secret

[chrome palm]

secret is clearly the worst part of sub rn

[lilac stag]

Everyone happy

[uneven scarab]

i really just think you need to have 1 use per dance

And everything is fixed

[lilac stag]

even less thinking then

doubt that’s happening

[zenith wedge]

I dont think there is anything going on personally. When Frost DK has more going on in its pillar window then Sub then Sub is too simple.

[lilac stag]

Better off with every dance while blades is active

[uneven scarab]

I mean frost is like the same thing no

[keen dome]

Secret Symbols

[chrome palm]

currently the rotation is secret technique off cd basically no matter what

[lilac stag]

fdk is the same ye

[chrome palm]

being able to hold it or play around when you decide to use dance is a lot more interesting

[lilac stag]

which will still happen when not sitting on a training dummy

[chrome palm]

yeah you just lose casts

or need to hold blades even longer than you already do

[lilac stag]

Guess that’s going to separate the skill level of players

[lucid jackal]

I will always be of the opinion that the perception of subs complexity was much grander than how complex the spec actually was

[hollow spear]

Knowing when to sacrifice (potential) casts to time add spawns, damage amps or shield breaks has and will continue to be an important skill to have

Which got somewhat trivialised by lorrgs, but there's still many people who mess it up

[slate marlin]

The complexity was properly using your non sb dances, that was it rly

[lilac stag]

people still will with “2 buttons”

[slate marlin]

In dance it was already shadowstrike bp/evis

[hollow spear]

The complexity was wrapping your head around how sub as a spec works. Once it clicked, you were mostly there.

[lucid jackal]

basically yeah

The spec was not that hard, it was just like, getting the baseline heuristics

[lilac stag]

now dance has builder finisher options since we’re not cleaving everything

[lucid jackal]

once u get that part the spec kidna auto pilot, you don't really have real procs, the spec just kinda goes

Idk

[slate marlin]

I agree

[hollow spear]

Could still always absolutely produce some stinkers from a parse perspective, but that was mostly because of how unforgiving mistakes were.

[uneven scarab]

barrier to entry was high because of community perception imo, spec hasnt been hard in a good while

[lilac stag]

if 684 haste is going to ruin Sub for people idk maybe time to play D4 or ArcRaiders

[chrome palm]

D4 💀

[graceful rock]

D4

[swift tinsel]

Itemization System Overload Simulator?

[hollow spear]

Haven't seen too much D4 hate lately, people are probably busy hating poe 2 atm

[lilac stag]

yea. Just as silly as yapping about 684 haste

[hollow spear]

Or they forgot D4 existed

[chrome palm]

D4 😭

[keen dome]

What about Neverwinter Nights 1 Enhanced edition?

[lilac stag]

overwatch

[keen dome]

Which one

there's overwatch and also overwatch

[lilac stag]

Players Choice

[chrome palm]

unfortunately not i think that was the issue

[lilac stag]

the joke landed

[tulip light]

guy can anyone explain to me why rogue cant have smoke bomb as raid cd?

[tepid trellis]

back in the day due to the LoS mechanic it broke certain mechanics

and now DH has it instead basically

[lucid jackal]

Yeah as he said

As a mechanic that could just "break LOS" anywhere, at any time, it was just OP af, sometimes

and then as just a fart on the ground that DRs, Darkness exists

[bleak night]

yeah what they said

los was kinda strong sometimes

and darkness does dr as a cloud now

[vale pine]

removing the los mechanic would also be a solution ^^

[uneven scarab]

would be cool to use smoke bomb in keys to los caster mobs

[vale pine]

could also make it so bosses are not effected

which would give some startegic use of it still

[tepid trellis]

then its just darkness

[uneven scarab]

ye

[vale pine]

i mean darkness was introduced

just as it got removed

darkness is basically what it did

[keen dome]

Let us pickpocket another classes abilities.

[tepid trellis]

what would actually fit the rogue theme is that we could steal whatever class we wanted raid buff

be the jack of all trades

master of none

[tulip light]

remove los easy solution and dh having darkness is not an argument

like we can have same defensives in the game

[uneven scarab]

It kinda is though, theyre not gonna have two classes have a darkness cd

its also more of a raid cd rather than a self defensive

so even more likely they wouldnt copy it

[zenith wedge]

its just different flavors of aoe team defensive like amz and shout

[uneven scarab]

you would have to make it different to darkness

Somehow

ig u could just make it dr

Darkness is dodge chance iirc

[tepid trellis]

bring back the link+darkness combo

[uneven scarab]

hymm+link still owns pretty hard

For fat damage

[zenith wedge]

blind isn't aoe anymore right?

[uneven scarab]

currently no

[tepid trellis]

according to tooltip no

but for some reason it still is when u talent it

[hollow spear]

What's the over under for it staying aoe or it getting fixed to reflect the tooltip?

[uneven scarab]

i would assume if they removed that portion of the tooltip its not intentional but who knows

[hazy breach]

[warm marlin]

A class not having ANY aoe stop seems a bit troll though

[uneven scarab]

Yes i agree LMAO

very troll

[warm marlin]

Like the tooltip thing does suggest they meant to remove it but also... wtf?

[uneven scarab]

ya.. not sure, like what was the plan

maybe aoe kidney was meant to make a comeback

[hazy breach]

Hunter kinda doesnt

But yeah i agree

Binding is kinda weird and their "aoe intimidate" only hits 4 extra targets

[wanton oasis]

I was griping about this this morning in guild chat. Just further evidence that the devs don’t play the game or listen to anyone that does. It’s one thing to overlook something like this, but to deliberately REMOVE the only AOE stop is unconscionable. Also, it doesn’t simplify the class, reduce button bloat, or free up a talent, so it doesn’t accomplish any of the midnight design goals either. It’s going to make getting into pug keys that much harder given the utter lack of utility. This tilts the scale against rogue big time in choosing a midnight main.

[hazy breach]

They removed CCs from other classes too

But for the most part they didnt only have a single one like we do

[wanton oasis]

1 > 0

And it was one of the weaker aoe CC in the game to start with… didn’t stun, knock-up, snare, or slow

[hollow spear]

Well, the current (bugged?) version has a really low cd, hasn't it?

[shadow lance]

24 s cd

[wild vine]

did they lose that aoe shot thingy

dunno what it exactly did

disorient or something

[shadow lance]

The bump?

[wild vine]

oh ye

that could be what I mean

[shadow lance]

Oh, i see what you mean

It was a single target disorient or an aoe bump I think

[wild vine]

yeah they definitely had that as an aoe interrupt at some point rather recently

[shadow lance]

Yes, but doesn't exist if I trust hunters my roster

[wild vine]

I mean potentially aoe interrupts are less important if they completely follow through with their less cast spam stuff

gotta see how it turns out to be

[shadow lance]

Back in days, we had no aoe cc

But you could cancel cast with cc

[bleak night]

Hunters lost bursting shot yes

[hazy breach]

and implosive

[bleak night]

Ye traps too

[lilac stag]

too many buttons for hunters.

[solar gull]

There is no reason to bring a rogue into any key, we have no contributing ability. IMO they should do something with our poisons that will have a positive effect for the whole group

[swift tinsel]

I mean in most key levels that doesn’t really matter

Unless you aren’t literally dead weight you’re contributing to key timing/completion

[chrome palm]

somewhat but being a rogue in like ara kara felt really bad

because you are kinda forcing your group to accept a huge loss in utility

[zenith wedge]

why does shroud need a cd, when mind soothe on priest doesn't

[chrome palm]

what difference would that make

[zenith wedge]

could have it up everytime we need a skip

[chrome palm]

you do maybe 1 shroud skip in any dungeon

[wild vine]

it matters across most key levels because community perception is a thing

[zenith wedge]

yeah ik but its just some more utility they could give us that doesnt have in major consequences

[wild vine]

and there are quite some people that would like to push

on rogue

[chrome palm]

shroud not having a cd doesnt really help our utility to be honest

[swift tinsel]

People still think sub is the PvP spec yet we’re always great in prog raiding

[hazy breach]

Its not the cd thats the issue with shroud

[wild vine]

doesnt change the fact you wont get invites with bad rep

[swift tinsel]

Ye it’s less shroud cd than truesight density

[chrome palm]

every pack in the game has truesight

being able to use shroud is insanely rare nowadays

[zenith wedge]

yeah that is true that amount of that they've been throwing in dungeons is great

whch begs the question why does it have such a long cd

[chrome palm]

it could be interesting as an option to allow tanks to do creative pulls tho

[swift tinsel]

List your own keys

[wild vine]

thats such an incredibly bad answer

[swift tinsel]

It’s literally the only way to guarantee you get a dps spot

Unless you run with a premade/guild

Welcome to lfg

[zenith wedge]

they could do some cool things with aoe stealth effects though give it a group DR or a heal over time

[wild vine]

why does the design have to be bad

so that that is the solution?

wild take

ngl

[swift tinsel]

You’re the one being hyperbolic saying you will never get invited so

[chrome palm]

it was pretty bad this expac

[wild vine]

you will get significantly less invites to the point many stop bothering and at the upper end you are kinda f'ed

thats not a secret

[zenith wedge]

do think its funny the Rogue raid buff is to make the enemies do less dmg. Feels so anti-rogue theme wise.

[upbeat garden]

3% is good early in the prog\

later nobody cares

[lilac stag]

Take our shit back from monks.

[zenith wedge]

slap some raid wide crit chance on our poisons please

[plush roost]

Cook

[plush roost]

Theyd make it a lethal poison and assa would be banned from prog

[heavy sundial]

question, are passive proc trinkets (like screams of a forgotten sky and ticking sack of terror) good on m dimmy? Specifically because the fight is so broken up across multiple big targets, I feel like the fact that they wouldn't have a long time to build up would make them.....i don't want to say bad but like not as good as some other trinkets? (that said i've been playing sub for all of 3 days so I don't know shit)

[wanton oasis]

I already feel a huge difference in pug key invites. my lower ilvl mage gets invited in 1/4 the time.

and keys are free rn.

[lilac stag]

Screams still needs to high roll. The double on use is meh in p3

[heavy sundial]

currently am running myth track antenna + lily (just b/c I had them lying around. best I could cobble together on the fly), and since sims are working i did some direct gear sims and on patchwerk, both ticking sack and perfidious were ~2% more dps

I know the expac is over in like 3 weeks but im trying to get the mount so optimizing my sub dps is my main goal.

I still have 6 coins left over so I still have the ability to buy things if they are that big of an upgrade

i feel like screams and ticking are good against targets that you're DPSing the entire time like loom or soulbinder, but for dimmy it doesn't make a ton of sense to me like...on paper

[lilac stag]

As you can see here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/44?boss=3135&class=Rogue&partition=3

It doesn’t matter.

[opal basalt]

2 PIs for a sub rogue

[tulip light]

broooo keys in pre patch make me want to log off fighting against stuff like dev dh / dev evoker on meters

[ashen topaz]

Hello, I'm very new to the class and I got a skip with midnight pre order. I trained a bit on a dummy but I can't seem to find this spell: . I searched on internet and found out that this is one spell that becomes this one instead in certain conditions. But does it suppose to swap the spell icon too? Cuz I didn't see this spell in any way during my rotation

[lilac stag]

It’s evicerate on steroids

Have to be trickster

[hazy breach]

Its the bottom talent in trickster

[ashen topaz]

Oh OK nvm it's because I'm not playing trickster

🤣

Thank you both!

[lilac stag]

Evicerate will turn into it basically

[distant lodge]

so i'm a little confused regarding shadow clones, i thought it was only secret technique that caused them. What has a chance to spawn them?

[shadow lance]

Apex

[distant lodge]

ah okay and than isn't in yet, correct?

[shadow lance]

Correct

But the 15% damages amp on sectech is great

[distant lodge]

thank ya! was searching every ability for a chance to summon xD

oh definitely! i'm just getting into the spec again and was confused about the higher chance to summon 😅

[shadow lance]

There are

Like weaponmaster

Or umbral edge

Shuriken Tornado

[distant lodge]

ah nice! yeah saw WM and UE but those seemed fixed with no chance involved. Didn't stop shuriken tornado though!

[shadow lance]

I think WM and Shuriken Tornado are 15% baseline

So 20% with RS I guess

[distant lodge]

it all makes more sense now, thanks! ^^

[jolly sleet]

Okay, we are several people feeling we are missing a bit of complexity in the current iteration of the rotation. I've had a couple of courses on game design during my studies and I have a kind of proposal that would introduce a bit of randomness and reactivity in the rotation.

The main idea would be : dance buffs our spenders in a new way :

• When you press dance your X (lets say three) different buffs having a stack.
• Each of those X buffs allow you to amp your nth finisher
  -- (e.g. the first buff in red allows to buff your first finisher, the second buff in yellow boosts the second etc)
• The number of stack for each buff will change at every dance BUT the actual number only swap places in the list
  -- (e.g. Always 120 130 150 in the example but in a random order)

That would allow a bit of randomness and reactivity without interfering with the flow of the overall rotation.
What do yall say ? Did I cook or am I dumb ?

[lilac stag]

We don’t need more rng
How is that making the spec more approachable (when you need that much of an explanation to it?

[jolly sleet]

what do we need then ?

[lilac stag]

Goremaws fixed

Replace energy with instant Sectech CD reset

Replace Danse with Banshee Blight

Gives options for simple play or more advanced with adding a cd toggle.

[jolly sleet]

humm

those are good ideas

just giving mine without thinking sry

[lilac stag]

You put thought into it. Wihich is good.
You were given feedback.

Iterate on your ideas. That is the essence of design.

[lucid jackal]

Don't be sorry lol

[lilac stag]

The solution ultimately needs to fit in a tooltip, so Blizzard can mess it up.

Bonus points if Shadow dmg can bug it out.

[radiant swift]

is it normal to have to wait sometimes (prepatch) to get enough energy for cd rotation? especialy before dance+stec

[sullen hare]

You shouldn't have to pool a whole bunch and it's fine to sit on dance for 1-2 seconds if sec tec is coming up

[radiant swift]

idk i would say its like 3-4 sec till i get 28 energy for stec

[sullen hare]

But energy is basically unlimited in dance if you're doing things right

[radiant swift]

im checking talents right now and u getr 30 over 3 sec from master of shadows

so technicaly i could a bit earlier but thats about it

[sullen hare]

You don't need to be slamming backstabs all the way up to when your burst window is coming up

Backstab does such pathetic damage you're not missing out

[radiant swift]

yeah i figured just feels weird to sit there for 3-4 seconds doing autoattacks

[sullen hare]

You didn't play s3 I see

[radiant swift]

i didnt

i heard its been a blast tho

[sullen hare]

We got to sit and chug backstabs for 25 or so straight seconds in s3

[radiant swift]

thats surely fun

that we are speaking of

where is the infinite energy even coming from

u get twice 30% from pressing dance

u get more finishers that refund

i dont think i see anything else

[sullen hare]

That 30/3 but also relentless strikes midway down the right side of the tree

[radiant swift]

yeah but that is always

[sullen hare]

That's part of the unlimited energy calculus

You should never bottom out in dance pretty much ever

[radiant swift]

oh and you mostly will have sth stacks

and double cp

[sullen hare]

We'll have more energy *and* points to work with when we get apexes too.

[radiant swift]

dont think we need more inside dance

feels like alot of lost ones

[sullen hare]

Ideally nothing is wasted in dance when there are no bugs. That's a big ask though

[radiant swift]

it isnt? feels like we are getting to many refunds

[sullen hare]

We aren't. Trust

[radiant swift]

oh damn

[hazy breach]

Shadow techniques

[radiant swift]

the only thing ive seen is the massive amount of sth stacks when u end dance

[sullen hare]

S4 SL had an RNG shit fest where sometimes you just spammed finishers

[radiant swift]

because u already have double cp and infinite energy basicaly

[sullen hare]

Well, s3/s4 I think

[radiant swift]

yeah i heard about that

dopuble coup and stuff

[sullen hare]

That was tww s3

[radiant swift]

coup ss coup shenanigans

[sullen hare]

Never coup ss coup because there was an escalating blade bug that prevented stack gain between coups so we used shuriken storm instead

[radiant swift]

think ss is shuriken storm

[sullen hare]

Oh. We have a lot of double s acronyms here

[hazy breach]

Like during dance everytime you proc shadow technique you get 8 energy, and on average you proc slightly more than once a second with 0% haste

[sullen hare]

Shadowstrike, shadowstep, shuriken storm just to name 3 of them

[radiant swift]

oh shit i complety frogott about the energy part from shadow technique

damn feels overloaded

so much energy extra cp

and refund from finisher

[hazy breach]

Which is also increased by supercharger/coup

[sullen hare]

Take it from me and maybe eleem if he feels the same way but it isn't excessive it's right where it needs to be

[hazy breach]

(or the energy refund from DN if deathstalker)

I dont really care about the energy levels, but we definitely get excessive amounts of Sht cp

Atleast imo

[radiant swift]

the extra cp are acounted for energy then in relentness strike - makes sense

idk i end often cd rotation with alot of sht stacks

they do go as quickly tho

[hazy breach]

Or rather, i feel like the baseline regen of our spells is just way too low, its all tied into shadow techniques

Like 65-70% of our combo points come from sht in midnight (on ST)

[mental flume]

!FUU

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hot plaza]

Guys so do we hold on for dance for technique to come off cd or send dance on cd pls? Also should you ever send technique outside of dance? ♥️

[austere spear]

never ST outside dance. Send dance when ST comes up in 4s

[lilac stag]

You pair Sectech with Supercharged dance. It should be your first finisher. #subtlety-faq

we look to send it immediately with dance to make sure we maximize globals sent in dance

[sick basin]

It doesn't have to be the first, just used with one of the two charges which is within 4sec of dance

[lilac stag]

3 seconds. Dance + builder, finisher, build, Sectech is very latest.

The entire point of the macro is to get either a builder or finisher at the 0 second mark to maximized dance gcds

[sick basin]

Yes but when they don't line up exactly you can still send dance if you can send ST in that window

It is ideal for ST to be first

[lilac stag]

if they don’t line up you’ve done something wrong. Even with lust you’re sending something immediately with the second dance of blades and Sectech is your 4th gcd, not your 4 second cast

you’re either finishing the previous dance with a finish, then you dance + storm, and carry on or your finish the first dance with a builder, and you enter 2nd dance with dance+evis

[radiant swift]

wdym no to not holding dance? what else would u do

he asked if he should wait with dance till stec is rdy

and got the emote "no" - ehat else shpuld he do if not hold for stec?

[lilac stag]

The timing is wrong

honestly just build up sht stacks and full send Sectech first.

or get it to 3 seconds or less and start with dance + storm

[warm marlin]

you want sectec earlier to get coup earlier and increase chance of supercharging an apex coup

ofc supercharging a regular evis is the same value, but due to premed and sectec giving sht its quite likely you get apex on the finisher right after sectec

which it is better to supercharge an apex finisher than a normal one

[radiant swift]

well yeah he should have dance for stec but what else is there

[lilac stag]

Ryldd just spelled it out

me trying to not type out 2 button spec lol

[radiant swift]

from what he says the answer is then yes to wait?

[warm marlin]

yes you should wait

dance has charges so no reason to send it early

[lilac stag]

Build sht stacks

[radiant swift]

i see so the initial message was correct just ahd some underlying stuff and reason

[lilac stag]

No it wasn’t which is why it got a no

[radiant swift]

are u not agreeing with what ryldd said

cant quiet follow

[lilac stag]

ryldd is correct. Sukuna saying send dance with 4 seconds on Sectech is wrong

what are you not understanding.

[radiant swift]

he said "send dance when st comes up in 4sec"

[lilac stag]

If Sectech is on CD for 4 seconds you don’t send dance

[warm marlin]

yes, ideally you would just wait those 4s and then press the macro

sectec strike apex coup is biggie damage, dance/evis (not apex), strike, sectec is a lot worse

[radiant swift]

so in the end its waiting

[warm marlin]

yep. it wouldnt be quite so bad if you could dance insta apex finisher

[radiant swift]

im not even sure if he was asking for beta

but it shouldnt matter regardless

[warm marlin]

on live i dont think it matters as much but we didnt do much tc for prepatch at all

the only difference there with casting sectec earlier is having an easier time fitting coup into dance, sometimes if you sectec second itll be procced pretty late

[lilac stag]

idk what the initial responses intent is since it’s not clear. I read it as send dance when Sectech is up in 4, which is wrong. Or the intent was hold dance until Sectech is up in 4 second then yes.

[warm marlin]

easier to guarantee its in dance if you cast sectec first, but without apex talents its nbd

[lilac stag]

everything revolves around Sectech.

[radiant swift]

well not to be petty

but he said the exact same thing

which is to wait

[radiant swift]

then the idea is only getting the big hits after, making stec first in line?

i found atleast on prepatch to it happen naturaly very often

if you hold coup anyway

[lilac stag]

He introduced the random 4 seconds. Which means send dance as long as Sectech is coming up in 4 seconds or less to me. Not hold dance until Sectech is off cd.

why he added 4 seconds idfk

[radiant swift]

that is a bit random

but he most likely ment when its up

[lilac stag]

simple say hold dance for Sectech

What he meant and what he wrote with a time context don’t align. Anyways. Done with it.

[radiant swift]

not wrong

i wonder why the 4 sec

[warm marlin]

4s is the timer for dance/builder, finish, builder, finish, i.e. max time before you would have to either delay your gcd or not supercharge sectec

with sectec as your 4th gcd of dance

i assume is why

[radiant swift]

well he should be at full cp beforehand anyway

[lilac stag]

Which would align with the just send dance 4 seconds early

[radiant swift]

but u can also count builder/dance/stec

what exactly is the deal of sending dance + stec if blades is above 10 seconds remaining cd? is there a reason for that? anything under 20 u have to wait on stec

[chrome palm]

my understanding is you send secret off cd and hold blades for it

[radiant swift]

so its better to send a dance+stec combo and hold blades for a bit rather than the other way around?

[chrome palm]

believe so

[radiant swift]

are most multipliers around dance is that possible? makes sense anyway with the amount of damage stec does

[short radish]

so long as you dont lose a cast of blades*

[chrome palm]

its probably a per fight thing

[radiant swift]

dont u have to give up one or the other?

[chrome palm]

if the fight is 3 minutes long, you can hold your 2nd blades for a very long time, for instance

[radiant swift]

atleast for a dungeon it surely makes u lose a cast at some point

[short radish]

well yes but it's worse to give up a cast of blades over another less useage of setech

[radiant swift]

so then u would say its better to hold dance + stec for blades than the other way around?

[chrome palm]

for reference there isnt a single st fight in the raid except maybe last boss

so youll probably hold secret at some point

[radiant swift]

i think i shouldve specified im looking at m+

this is prob easier to get done in raid since well less timer and stuff

[short radish]

well then the answer is even more of a "it depends"

because now you throw pack size etc

[radiant swift]

true

[short radish]

the general rule of "dont hold" always applies though

[chrome palm]

in s3, we were basically limited to 2 cd usages per boss most of the time

[short radish]

and if you hold, do minimal holding

[chrome palm]

and you were ending bosses with blades off cd for a little bit

[radiant swift]

so holding in regard to anything

[chrome palm]

so if its like that, then holding blades 10s for secret makes no difference, but it might not be like that again

[radiant swift]

this seems not so easy

from pack to another its often a couple seconds but sending cds into a half dead pack also feels bad

[short radish]

again to repeat the answer as always is "it depends"

[radiant swift]

its most likely better to just use

[chrome palm]

at high keys it will be easy

[short radish]

yes

when in doubt the first rule should always be "will the pack survive the entire usage of my cds"

if so, just send

[lilac stag]

Yay keys!

[short radish]

with the caveat that your primary goal is to time the key and not to flex your epeen on the dps meters

[radiant swift]

so often half the pack survives it or it ends with liek 1 mob alive

[short radish]

so again, it depends

[short radish]

i hate doers

[radiant swift]

gotta make a if then statement

[lilac stag]

best advice is be aggressive. Pull it back as you get more familiar with route.

[radiant swift]

sounds reasonable

[chrome palm]

compared to s3 with prism/cdr we are much less flexible

[short radish]

yup

better to send than to not send

[lilac stag]

People miss soooo many casts with sub and wonder why dps shit

[short radish]

reminder that the entire dungeon is one big long boss fight

[lilac stag]

Not dealing with CDR off CPs should make it easier

[short radish]

so if you do 20 casts of sblades and the other guy has done 28 casts of sblades

[chrome palm]

it allowed you to be super aggressive with dance

[short radish]

then he's going to do more dps

[chrome palm]

you basically never held dance in s3 in m+

you could even send it without symbols because of how good cdr was

[radiant swift]

absolutely

im sad that

dmg meters is broken

that u cant check for casts of anything

[lilac stag]

Fuck I hope I’m not in a key for 28 casts of blades

[short radish]

weekly +10 no leaver

[warm marlin]

technically it does cost even the sim uses of blades due to the time variance

i dont think blades is particularly strong on its own

you have infinite cp anyway it's practically just a damage amp

[lilac stag]

My assumption is Sectech casts going to make or break keys, followed by apex gaming

[short radish]

[lilac stag]

Holding blades for bosses if it means sitting on it a little likely ok

But charrend can prob speak to it

[warm marlin]

removing op pot and lust, regular dances are pretty strong

[radiant swift]

regular dances meaning no blades that is?

[lilac stag]

Mmhm

should be stronger with apex

[short radish]

woooo sectech

[radiant swift]

unfort that the optimazations are weird tho

[lilac stag]

eh they’re fine. sub rarely has anything normal for optimizations

we just adjust and move along

[radiant swift]

its funny tho

you remove alot of stuff and then the optimazation is do to somenthing completly inuintive

[lilac stag]

The gameplay is intuitive. The minmax will rarely be with sub. This isn’t a surprise for anyone familiar with the history of the spec.

[radiant swift]

fair

[lilac stag]

and none of the minmax come off as total cringe so it’ll end up being a skill expression to go along with cd/fight timing management to flex how good you are at the spec.

while you’ll still have people coming in spouting 2btn spec kekw

[radiant swift]

eh i guess you can see it either way

wouldnt call it cringe

[restive venture]

question about sub, for the opener wouldnt you rather just shadowstrike straight into cds and consumes instead of wasting the time of your cds by 1-2 sec?

[radiant swift]

but mybe a bit an annoyance

[warm marlin]

need slice and dice up

auto attacks give cp very important

[radiant swift]

but imo its better even if its that way than just having nothing

pressing the same stuff over and over again

[restive venture]

ah your right

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[restive venture]

!macros

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
Here is a macro to make it easier to fit all of your globals into your Shadow Dances:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Secret Technique

Deathstalker likes to use this macro instead:

/cast Shadow Dance
/cast Shuriken Storm

This can be combines with trinkes and other cooldown use.

/cast Shadow Blades
/use 13
/use 14
/use Tempered Potion
/cast Ancestral Call

Trickster Rogues can combine Coup de Grace and Black Powder in one button:

/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

You can find more macros and details in Guides like WoWhead or Icy Veins.

[grand wyvern]

dumb question: if you macro shadowstrike or shuriken storm into dance does it matter how early you press the button in the spellqueue window to fit the maximum amount of globals? Ideally you would want dance to go off right before the ss but it is impossible right?

[warm marlin]

you should wait for your gcd to be ready then press it

dance is offgcd and will go off the second you press it, while storm will get queued

[grand wyvern]

but then you would have a gap not always casting, is it impossible to optimize?

[lilac stag]

You can vanish strike and go right into Sectech dance if you want with the opener

[restive venture]

another dumb question is do we ever consume silent storm during singlet target. I know assa used to use fan of knives in ST due to deathstalker

[warm marlin]

well outside dance you wont have energy to fill every gcd anyway. if you mean the second dance in blades ye just gotta try to time it well

[grand wyvern]

you are right but it feel cursed to stop spamming buttons

[lilac stag]

we don’t spam buttons. That’s outlaw.

[restive venture]

I have a couple specific questions but I dont want to spam

[warm marlin]

you also cant spellqueue strike unless you're already in dance so it's a bit cursed

if you want to start dance at low cp prob better to use dance/storm macro

[lilac stag]

Just fire away

We’re here to help

#subtlety-faq also

[warm marlin]

as kind of alluded to, you might want to sometimes start dance at low cp with the dance/storm macro. you don't play around it otherwise

[restive venture]

what is the point of this macro along side the silent storm question I asked a second ago

[warm marlin]

you're playing DS which wants to start dances at low CP instead

[restive venture]

really?

have I been playing DS wrong this entire time?

[lilac stag]

for some reason DS sims thinks low CP is better to start with

we all hate DS so we ignore it

[restive venture]

Should I just learn trickster then?

it seems a bit more complicated in aoe

Maybe Im just too used to DS on assa

[lilac stag]

It’s less complicated imo. Not dealing with mark

[restive venture]

I'm assuming you want your target to be fazed before coup de grace or sec tech on trickster?

[kind edge]

I played all the s1 as sin with DS, since i switched to subt with trickster i felt free as fck, the feeling of not being attached to one target because of mark… trickster is much better imo. In single target raid bosses I probably will go DS as subt but that’s it.

[kind edge]

Yes thats a damage increase

[restive venture]

so throw in a back stab or a SS before the CDs?

[restive venture]

Ill have to try it out then for sure

[warm marlin]

sectec applies fazed

[restive venture]

ahhh ok

[warm marlin]

well not on prepatch!

[restive venture]

oh.

[warm marlin]

on beta, you don't take the talent for it on prepatch

[restive venture]

so you dont need to set up before your cds outside of what you usually do?

[warm marlin]

you don't really have a nice way to guarantee it, you don't know if your unseen blade proc is ready

your strike right after sectec will always apply it via disorienting strikes

[restive venture]

I'm really trying to learn this spec even if its super dumbed down I feel like the tiny optimizations help a ton

Ive played assa for like 3 years now

[kind edge]

My advice is to send the rotation normally. I never hold my stuff to check its fazed or not. The only thing that i like to line up atm its the 2 supercharger with sectech and coup.

One after another

[restive venture]

ahhhhhh

that seems a bit fun actually

[kind edge]

Yes, just make sure that your sectech goes with atleast one supercharger

If coup does not, its not the end of the world

[restive venture]

yeah just trying it on on some target dummies actually feels more fun than DS

[kind edge]

Dummies are your best friends, and then logs. I like to see what other rogues are doing, that helps me understand if im doing something wrong when I’m not sure about something. Specially on raid bosses

[eager latch]

master yoda clowning on my social circle

[kind edge]

😂😂😂

They are mine, they dont snitch me when in doing lame ass rotation 😅

[restive venture]

Do you only use sech tech with charged combo points or do I use it regardless, like squeezing out a second one during the opener when it has like 1 sec left on SD

[kind edge]

You wanna send sectech always with dance. Dance gives you 2 supercharged CPs.

[vital sage]

what algeth'ar academy buff sub rogues grabbing at the start

[plush roost]

Versa

tempted to try haste tho lowkey

[eager latch]

really?

[torn tide]

oh damn so theres gonna be new talent builds entirely when midnight actually drops then

[eager latch]

why not crit or mast

i thought mast > vers in aoe

[plush roost]

Its a flat 5% versa, its quite turbo

idk the exact math but im pretty sure its correct

u can have too much mastery after all, and its not a % buff but a raw amount from alg dragons so mastery buff kinda meh

[eager latch]

ah that's interesting

good comms

[narrow shadow]

I've been hearing that sub is currently dogwater in beta damage wise, especially in ST

Is it true?

[kind edge]

It was so bad that blizzard nerfed it by 8%

[random comet]

someones been watching petko tier lists

[narrow shadow]

https://youtu.be/iDku-9pBRx8

It seems pretty far behind

[tulip light]

Rogue needs all the help there can be for a specc to get 😂

[narrow shadow]

I don't know why ther nerfed it by 8% people say it was super far ahead but I'm seeing now it's like 30% behind 🤣

Don't know how that math works

[random comet]

good few weeks to go at least

prayge

[narrow shadow]

But why nerf it if it was already behind is what doesn't make sense to me. If they nerfed it is because it was a good 20% behind already

[shrewd lantern]

because raid prob

[shrewd lantern]

m+ is a minigame

[vale pine]

The nerf is not even live and people lose their mind

[shrewd lantern]

also isnt kira basically eu yoda in terms of cooked tanks

[chrome palm]

is casual using the right build

[vale pine]

the reality is, subtlety was rarely allowed to stay in a top position even within rogue

[shrewd lantern]

casual likely sandbagging as per usual

[vale pine]

and blizz internal balancing team has certain habbits

[chrome palm]

kira can be as cooked as he wants i dont think any other tank is near him, no?

[narrow shadow]

Sadge

[shrewd lantern]

nah people will tell you they had to play sub last tier

[lucid jackal]

Probably because one youtube video isn't indicative of the balance in the game

[vale pine]

this still does mean subtlety was many times the top spot for early progression

[shrewd lantern]

early prog is like