subtlety

[sly shore]

don't need to track fw anyway

it's simply always up during dance

[fast vigil]

my confusion sprouted from it not being a debuff, and i thought i was missing it at all times

[hazy breach]

It's both apex1 and weaponmaster

[lilac stag]

Sure!

[tribal blade]

cool i can jump on rn

[lilac stag]

One moment.

[jolly summit]

Helloo, im looking for some tips for sub rogue in MOP - Am i right here? 😄

[lilac stag]

This Is retail mate

[lilac stag]

Why is the coffin still not usable?

[tribal blade]

oh are you inside already, 1 sec i'm coming

[next tundra]

How's sub looking for midnight? Heard it's got revamped and feels more smooth? I haven't played rogue for a while and curious if anyone has a nice video to watch on youtube for m+?

[fleet acorn]

anyone knows how do i align the big wigs bar via anchor point to my uuf target frame?

[radiant swift]

have a question regarding the coup into shadow dance optimazation: ive noticed that most of the time coup will fall naturaly into dance - am i trying to fit multiple in? is that even possible or just generaly make them inside dance if possible? is unseen blade somenthing i can/should play around? sometimes u land on 4 right before dance, now when u send sectec first and then strike u, i asume lose, i stack - should i bother or does it not matter?

[lilac stag]

It looks like & acts like sub rogue with less cognitive load (like everything in midnight).
Feels more smooth than what?

[knotty mango]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[north schooner]

⁨/fstack⁩ to see the target frame's name (⁨UUF_Target⁩ in this case) and replace UIParent with that

[sly shore]

UUF_Target or some shit, I forgor

he typed it right above

smile

[next tundra]

More smooth than previous seasons with the spec.

[lilac stag]

the spec has been smooth for a long time.

[radiant swift]

do i care any about preserving unseen blade stacks or is sendin stec like the top top prio

as in it should be first in dance

[tender dust]

Not as smooth as you my king

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/squidward-meme-brain-smooth-chatbubble-gif-16562439958126711181

Sectech is priority

[radiant swift]

even as first over 2 ability in dance?

[tepid trellis]

sectech NEEDS to be either finisher 1 or 2 in dance preferable the first

[lilac stag]

everything revolves around Sectech

[radiant swift]

i understand - so preserving unseen blade stacks is not a thing?

[tepid trellis]

nope not really

[radiant swift]

got it tyvm

[fleet acorn]

UI done

[vale pine]

looks good

👍

[torn tide]

woah damn this looks like it took awhile

i like the part where u have all ur defensives at above ur healthbar

[opal basalt]

thats bcdm right?

[fleet acorn]

yes mate 2 days xd

had to figure out the addons first how to do what

[fleet acorn]

bcdm and uuf

[torn tide]

well it was worth it

insane work

[opal basalt]

yeah i meant the defensives over unit frames one

[fleet acorn]

thats bcdm yea with custom

just gotta trim down my keybinds a little now with less buttons and im gucci

[mortal thicket]

!ui

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[void ocean]

what addon for poison warnings did u guys mention here

[fleet acorn]

im using missing class buff

[sullen hare]

I'm sure there are plenty and the word you might use to look for them is reminder https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/buffreminders

[haughty mural]

Does have bcdm those options standard or do you need to have something custom ? (defensives over frames)

[fleet acorn]

rly easy to do its standard under item & spells

[lilac stag]

Can also just put an action bar there. Works better for stuff like potion use (where you have a macro for all the item ids)

[brisk onyx]

so we go imp ambush now?

[vale pine]

you can just sim it

[brisk onyx]

yes increase ~0.8% dps in ST

[hazy breach]

yes

[dry plank]

Huge 🙂

[upbeat garden]

sim works ?

[vale pine]

yes

[hollow forum]

r u using the FragUI pack?

[rocky lake]

what are u boys preferring trickster or ds?

[tulip light]

trickster m+ / ds raid

[torn tide]

agreed

[safe hinge]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[vale pine]

trickster in m+, raid ds as its so much stronger

[void ocean]

In all fights?

Havent seen many fights, dunno how many are st

[lilac stag]

They’re all ST except demon hunters

just look at kill times on wcl

[vale pine]

yes

for raid deathstalker seems just better

or you mean in midnight?

midnight, i probably stick to trickster

[void ocean]

Yea, Midnight

[lilac stag]

Wait until tuning gets close to launch

[vale pine]

both look surprisingly close in midnight

bugfixes and tuning ye

nothing is set in stone yet

[void ocean]

Yea, im just window shopping anyway, i did set up my ui but its still questionable how practical its gonna be

It all looks nice and dandy on dummy ofc

[strange heath]

so does bloodlust just go crazy for sub rogue now since it gives us insane shadow dance windows bc of deepening shadows

[hazy breach]

No beacuse it does not have any interaction with deepening shadows

It explicitly says its only haste from stats

[strange heath]

no fun

[void ocean]

Lol it would be pog if we got like 30s dance 😂

Is PI deleted?

[hazy breach]

no

[vale pine]

antumn is

[void ocean]

Aye, got that one only once, by accident, on NK

[barren plume]

can you do M+ and raid cross faction now?

[latent finch]

Since ages yes

[sullen hare]

There's even cross faction cross server guilds now

[prime raft]

did prisim get nerfed why dont we like anymore?

[red vortex]

bosses die to fast

[prime raft]

anyone have a SD tracker

[hazy breach]

The ilvl squish favours damage trinkets more at low lvl (aka not max level 90)

[hazy breach]

The dance icon there should already have it no?

[prime raft]

it does but having a bar tracker is way easier for me

instead of a number

[hazy breach]

Then put it in the bar section of your buffs in cdm

[prime raft]

oh we can do that?

didnt know

[craggy onyx]

Hey is there any addon wich shows me a text in middle of screen when im in stealth? Before i had a weakaura

[slim sentinel]

when we come out of our first SD on opener, do we instantly go back into next SD because SB is still up, or do we wait for sec tec to come up before going into 2nd SD?

[graceful rock]

2 dances

[slim sentinel]

ty

[static ocean]

thats a good question homie

[unkempt compass]

Is find weakness bugged for anyone else? Or is my ui just not showing that debuff

[hazy breach]

Its not a debuff

[static ocean]

when playing deathstalker on lets say 6 targets, do we still ambush first on opener even tho we shoud shuriken on that many targets ?

[hazy breach]

Yes you always want a mark up

[static ocean]

thanks!

[haughty mural]

Thanks, as always

Tho I don’t like this that much, because im a monk

Action Bars have to be where action bars are

[sly night]

Hey guys first time going rogue and I'm curious with the new sub play style if that would be the one to pick up first?

[small helm]

Did they ruin sub?

[lucid jackal]

Depends how you define ruin

[shrewd lantern]

If you preferred being a nuclear bomb during cds and zdps outside yes

[hallow matrix]

A while ago i used to have shadowstrike and backstab in a stance condition macro, is that bad to do for some reason?

[small helm]

Didn’t sub used to have godly funnel? Aoe builder buffing your st spender? I feel that’s cool

Maybe in legion or bfa?

[hazy breach]

Yeah it was good, thats why it was muredered in bfa

[shrewd lantern]

legion yeah

so 8 years ago

[craggy onyx]

Think there is no option

[shrewd lantern]

We also had no black powder, dance just buffed storm damage by 250%

+lego cloak

[shrewd lantern]

set up your buff tracking in a spot you can see

[small helm]

Time flies

[shrewd lantern]

best part is it was 10% per stack in legion

[sick basin]

It was still good in BFA, didnt they stack like 4+ rogues for Zul to funnel boss?

[shrewd lantern]

then 5 in beta

of bfa

then buffed to 8% for live build for some god forsaken reason

[hazy breach]

Yes, thats why it was murdered

[sick basin]

Ah, yea, fair

[shrewd lantern]

which is funny how they never considered it an issue in legion

but tbf the only bosses you made use of it was mistress

desolate host wasnt a real boss

half the time on fish woman it didnt matter since your tank would drag the boss into green as the dfa buffed by combo was landing

[icy tinsel]

you guys, someone please help me. on beta my ST is so shit.. im never sending under 6CP, using SB, sectec, shadow dance macro etc. and then using shadowdance/sectec macro and spamming shadowstrike and evis. Can someone elaborate what i could be missing?

[barren plume]

Good gear? Run a sim on your character and compare it to what you do

[plush roost]

A log would help

[radiant swift]

is holding blades for a bigger pack a thing and just sending dance + stec, when i know they will be up again in time?

[tulip light]

if its a prio pack and you dont delay long sure but else just full send

[radiant swift]

it was more when like we are fighting 3 mobs and i know a bigger pack is coming up

[radiant swift]

what macros are u guys using ? are there advantages to using the full out have it all macro?

(besides ofc only having to press one button)

[torn tide]

im just using the dance and sectec one rn

[tulip light]

the dance + strike macro can be nice to not lose globals in dance

blades + pot / trinket maybe

the more you macro together the less flexible you are if u want to send stuff seperate

[icy tinsel]

you can sim beta?

[radiant swift]

thats what i was thinking too, u shouldnt be sending to much stuff alone

[tulip light]

I think there are cases for raid vs m+. While raid might be more linear (besides maybe fights on prog where you save potions for a certain point etc) m+ might need more flexibility

But overall most important is not to lose any uses

[radiant swift]

ye stuff is prob just dying to fast in these weekly keys

[barren plume]

Beta I have no clue, haven’t touched that but probably not?

[tepid trellis]

back to elvui my beloved

[runic sequoia]

what do you use for a wa replacement

[tepid trellis]

bettercooldown manager

the cooldownmanager is still very shit tho

hopefully they actually fix it to be not horrible

[runic sequoia]

yeah

[magic cliff]

What's it missing?

Besides items I haven't had much heartburn

[runic sequoia]

well its flat out missing abilities i wouldnt mind stealth and the first dance being in there

cant put items and racials in the default

[tepid trellis]

cant disable the uptime count and only show the cooldown in essentials

so makes it quite fcking awkward for some classes

like for BM hunters barbedshot

it track the bleed uptime

so you cant really see the cooldown

little stuff like that is awful

[magic cliff]

Oh yeah I've disliked that as well, have that issue with drw procs with blood at 90

[runic sequoia]

i would like per ability show if on cd toggle too

for like shroud or random stuff idk

distract is one that i would love hidden if not on cd

[tepid trellis]

it should just disable the uptime tracking

if you also have it selected in the buffs section

imo

[runic sequoia]

true

[lilac stag]

ArcUI

[runic sequoia]

yeah i set arcui up a bit but decided to do tweakscd instead

maybe i should go back

[lilac stag]

Arc is hands down the most powerful of the cdms. It’s also got a learning curve

[swift tinsel]

You can do it in tweaks

[lilac stag]

I’ve got active stuff like fient, cloak evasion and shroud while active in a separate group and only shows the active.

[swift tinsel]

On a per-ability basis

It’s a bit of an annoyance to do though because it creates a standalone icon

[lucid jackal]

#showtooltip
/cast Coup de Grace
/cast Black Powder

[radiant swift]

oh i tought that one is not "good" bcs u cant hold coup for dance

[radiant swift]

do u know by chance how to dissable arc from always re-adding trinkets on every relogg and reload?

[north schooner]

there is a check box in arc auras tab "auto add equipped trinkets" or something

[brisk onyx]

maybe we don't always need to hold coup now because the flawless form is now refresh-based and has a maximum of 5 stacks.

[sly night]

i love that i can add glows to things when they become useable through arcui helps me alot

[torn tide]

is that just so u wont miss coup in aoe rotation?

[brisk onyx]

Yes

[radiant swift]

yeah there was and i got prism in but it just keeps adding 2 more - one of them that isnt even equiped anymore - its super anoying

[radiant swift]

i cant quiet follow - i tought its just for dmg as in it does more because of dance

ive noticed it will naturaly fall into dance many times

[lilac stag]

Sectech is the priority. Coup if it’s coming up in a few seconds you hold for dance. That’s about.

[viral phoenix]

so for aoe DS do you consume darkest night if you don't have SnD?

[hazy breach]

You make sure you always have a mark up, which should naturally keep SnD up

[radiant swift]

youre a livesaviour

[radiant swift]

got it, ty

[viral phoenix]

When you're on say 6 targets and you're skipping darkest night does SnD get kept up? Like its just shadowstrike after DN is active to apply the mark then BP spam right? Or am I doing that optimization wrong

[prime raft]

is this on curse

[brisk onyx]

Previously, we needed to hold coup because we wanted to maximize the number of flawless form stacks during dance. However, the mechanism of flawless form has changed: 1. It now has a maximum of 5 stacks; 2. the stack now maintains 5 as long as you refresh time is maintained, instead of the previous independent duration. Therefore, maintaining 5 stacks is now easy, and it's not always necessary to hold the coup.

[hazy breach]

Yeah and then mark drops when you are not in dance, so you eviscerate to keep the mark up

[radiant swift]

oh i see so its maintaining itself, well unless u drop it due to downtime i guess?

so the dmg part isnt even important - when u say "dont hold always" doest it mean i still have to check from time to time, that im at max stacks?

as in "refresh it"

[viral phoenix]

ok I see, so SnD is maintained in aoe primarily outside of dance cause we don't have shadowstrike, if you're in shadow dance and DN falls off, mark still has 30 sec remaining, is it worth shadow striking again after the marks go to 0 and DN comes back?

[brisk onyx]

This can be considered, especially getting full hero talents in beta

[hazy breach]

You always want a mark up yes

So if its not up you strike or DN to apply it

[viral phoenix]

Ok understood thank you

so SnD in mass aoe is primarily kept up in outside of dance DN procs, say on something like first pull of algethar do we care about eviscing before opener as the mobs are gathering or anything like that?

[lament sinew]

do you guys funnel in keys or just gamba with blackpowder?

[swift tinsel]

wym gamba

[lament sinew]

i mean for overal dps

or time

like spiders in ara

i feel like there is very little prio dmg now in keys

im very new to sub rogue

[lilac stag]

You follow the target counts for builder spenders

#subtlety-faq

[lament sinew]

ya but isnt it better for timer to prio dps in some cases?

[tulip light]

The big beetles that give dmg reduction to smallies in ara might be worth evis‘ing else prob just bp

[lament sinew]

ah okay any other cases ?

[tulip light]

Not that I can think of but I don’t know how the new dungeons look like

And for the current ones it doesn’t matter anyways

[lament sinew]

kk then i wasted alot of dmg for nothing xD

[tulip light]

Just vibe it

[lament sinew]

gotcha

ty

[lilac stag]

BP does so much dmg, imo no. Just BP. Coup / Sectech is what will focus your prio target

[lament sinew]

alright ty

[short radish]

is this the expansion where the perception of sub rogue funnel finally goes away?

[bleak night]

its better than ever

[lilac stag]

perception of dropping Sectech bombs 📈

[bleak night]

[astral axle]

funnel is down the drain

if only there was a word for the swirling vortex of water forming a cone shape as it goes down to a singular, more narrow point

[echo timber]

Sounds like a toilet bowl

[lilac stag]

Depending how apex works out we may still be big prio

[warm marlin]

man its insane how they saw the success of outlaw's haste breakpoints and decided to make it 10x worse for sub

[lilac stag]

Just not big funnel

[tulip light]

Well for everyone that played sub during shuriken combo times funnel is non existent xD

But that was very extreme times

[hazy breach]

Yeah funnel is not 3x regular ST

Thats why we have aoe buttons now

[tulip light]

It felt so good tho 😭

[short radish]

yeah for half a patch

then we had to deal with shit ass funnel for 3 more expansions

[lilac stag]

And it was misery when tank didn’t pull adds on to a boss

tanks were dumb in bfa

[hazy breach]

I feel like people over index way too hard on funnel/prio nowadays, like yeah having high prio is good, but your overall damage is still the most important

[lament sinew]

overall is NOT the most important in keys, thats high cap

[hazy breach]

I mean sure if you dont read the other half of the message

[lilac stag]

Everyone wants a niche. Ours ain’t utility so rogues cope with funnel/prio

[lament sinew]

exactly

[short radish]

wym? our niche is faciliating skips past mobs via shrou.... wait nevermind

[lilac stag]

Mage’s job now

[lament sinew]

our biggest util is distrack now

[short radish]

nah it's shadow dance followed by 6 cheap shots in a row

[lament sinew]

saved so many keys with it

[hazy breach]

How do you plan to use a 12 second cooldown 6 times in a row sir

[short radish]

i've bricked so many keys with distract

[tulip light]

CS cd PepeLaugh

[lilac stag]

It’s actually wound poison.

[short radish]

oh yeah it has a cooldown now 🙃

[lament sinew]

ye

cheap shot is dead

[tulip light]

IMO they should just bring back smoke bomb as aoe cd

[lilac stag]

Can’t

It’s DH niche

[tulip light]

Rip

[lilac stag]

So is funnel

[tulip light]

No niches left xd

[lilac stag]

Now purple too

[astral axle]

our niche is to be nicheless

[lilac stag]

https://tenor.com/view/jover-gif-16964140724042266462

[woeful wren]

Make atrophic dmg amp instead of dr and gg

[plush roost]

grrr woof woof bark my prio niche

[warm marlin]

the wm tech

[plush roost]

its quite good

bro

[lilac stag]

Make Goremaw great again and we have legion WM GMB tech

[tulip light]

With all the pruning rewamping GMB would have been nice…

[astral axle]

char every time i see you play on someone's stream it make me wanna not play warrior and play rogue again in midnight

[lament sinew]

accept me pls^^

[hazy breach]

Imagine if storm hit your main target with unseen blade too

[lilac stag]

Can you link the build your running since I’m assuming it’s another log without talents

[lilac stag]

You’ll be playing prot soon enough

[astral axle]

prot war fun

but sub also fun

and new outlaw fun but dont tell #outlaw

[kind edge]

@plush roost are you using the macro

#showtooltip Secret Technique
/cancelaura Ancient Arts
/cast Secret Technique

too often ? it may look a weird question, but im a little bit "worried" about it, kinda sucks imo

[warm marlin]

how many targets were you doing it up to

just any time time prio made sense?

[plush roost]

I am not, i shoudl be using the macro but i am too old and stubborn nad lazy to remember i probably will when im progging raid since it matters ALOT at low haste

[plush roost]

I basically every single shadow dance did Sec tec, storm, coup, reset bp, strike, apex evis, bp stom bp

i think apex evis

is absolutley insanely good

[tulip light]

Why would we use the macro, what is the interaction?

Apex Evis seems to do a log if damage from what I have seen in some logs

[warm marlin]

idk if i posted but it seemed bad with pp, i dont know if stuff like the bug where it does an extra dm lash is in simc

[kind edge]

im on that boat too bro xD and it feels a bit weird to track

doesnt make sense to track something like it, shouldn't be a thing

[hazy breach]

Like conceptually it sucks yeah, but why does the macro suck

Like when you want to press sectech, you just press sectech

[kind edge]

the macro dont suck bro

[hazy breach]

No need to think about the apex for that

[kind edge]

the problem isnt the macro

the macro is the solution of a thing that shouldn't exist imo

[hazy breach]

Ofc

But its the sort of thing theyre absolutely not fixing at this stage

Just like DN not interacting with BP/aoe has felt horrible for deathstalker since it was first announce last week of tww alpha

Yet nothing has been done about it

[kind edge]

yea that is also very true

[hazy breach]

Yes but sectech apex does not

[kind edge]

if they change that, something that i dont belive that they are doing, would be amazing

[hazy breach]

Although tbf with improved sectech i dont think its the end of the world if you accidently do it

[kind edge]

clones on clones on clones

[hazy breach]

Not sure either, i told koji about them but

[shrewd lantern]

you know sometimes i genuinely ask myself

do people really understand when prio damage/funnel matters

or are they just tossing out streamer buzz words

to sound smart

[plush roost]

this is my TRASH ONLY breakdown, that evis damage is pretty crazy prio if u ask me

[hazy breach]

Isnt most of the just apex:ed coups though

[shrewd lantern]

also why do people think sub still has real funnel

that shit died after zul

[plush roost]

uh hard to say log doesnt differentiate them, but i'd like to imagine its still decent amount conisdering 13 are coups and 64 are evis

accoriding to hits anyway

idk if thats purely accurate

[warm marlin]

damage events are utterly imcomprehensible to me atm, there should be multiple different clone bars for each of the types and coup clones are getting coopted into evis and strike is merged and idk whats happening

[plush roost]

yeah its really annoying tbh

hard to evaluate

[shrewd lantern]

feels a bit weird to me how similar trickster and ds are

[tulip light]

So we cancel apex to not consume it with sectech? Don’t we lose a procc then? No clue how apex works that’s why im asking

[tribal blade]

basically the entire of SL sub rogues were expected to never touch BP and only evis prio targets

[shrewd lantern]

in terms of play

[shrewd lantern]

yeah it was great

totally disregard sv hunters did it better

[warm marlin]

cant wait for when coup has 12 different events under it, the 3 regular hits, the 3 SF hits, and 6 apex clone versions of those

[shrewd lantern]

[hazy breach]

To me it seems like as long as youre apexing coup and striking once you should get most of the prio value

[tribal blade]

wHy ArE yOu pReSsInG bP

wHy aRe yOu dOiNg nO oVeRaLl

[shrewd lantern]

i dont think anyone who doesnt main rogue

knows how this class works

i have mfs still thinking rtb is heavily rng

in tww

also, assa's entire restealth argument

by redditors and shit

[astral axle]

it has been that way since i can remember tbh

[shrewd lantern]

my favorite was pug tanks who chain packs at the most random times

with no brand equipped

[astral axle]

in s2 shadowlands people wet themselves over sub funnel and saying weird shit like sub was supposed to just cheapshot on cd to manage kicks and all this

[shrewd lantern]

"cheapshot on cd"

LMAO

[astral axle]

it was so stupid

[shrewd lantern]

yeah cd the ability that had no cooldown

biggest self report

then agian most the m+ andys i see cant even play their own class

[plush roost]

i will say there is some wild variance

just an evis in dance no coup

thats clone damage

why is it just 110% better

like i dont ge twhere the variance is coming from

lowkey

Im gonna try only apex'ing coup this key

and see if there is a significant prio difference

and get back to yall

[tulip light]

Any streams @plush roost ?

[plush roost]

ttv charrend

[tulip light]

Is there any go-to addon for logging raids and m+ these days btw?

[woeful wren]

@hazy breach Is the sectech apex thing A3 procing A1 and the A1 clones are doing less than the base sectech clones?

I'm so confused with why we're cancelauraing

[warm marlin]

the apex only copies the initial physical attack of sectec which is only a small part of its damage

if you cancelaura you save the sht to apex an eviscerate instead

[woeful wren]

right but its the A3 refund causing A1 to proc or what? is that the interaction

[warm marlin]

ya the refund is what procs the apex clones

[woeful wren]

ok makes sense ty

[left peak]

so its just a cancel aura on every Sectech?

[warm marlin]

yep

[amber fox]

SIM works for Sub?

[azure thicket]

got a hero ticking sack last night, idk if the sim is 100% for keys etc

anyone using it and stacking haste gear? was in 729 bis except for offhand prior to the squish etc

[amber fox]

Is it worth recrafting anything? I was playing Assassination but now with the squish and everything Sub is performing WAY better. I basically have too much Mastery but not willing to take away from Crit to invest into Haste/Verse.

[azure thicket]

if you can do it cheaply sure

but the only content is 20s for a laugh and mythic kills for loot right now

[amber fox]

292 crit > 141 haste > 485 mastery > 229 verse. Council's Guile x2 with Pacemaker + Cursed Stone Idol trinkets

The only options here are recraft my crit/mastery bracers to haste/verse which will put me at 272 crit > 161 haste > 465 mastery > 249 verse

[azure thicket]

ye don't worry about it too much

[amber fox]

I don't like how much auto-attacking I'm doing. Rogues ain't supposed to do that!

[azure thicket]

yeah if you have 10-20% haste it's playable but spec is kinda low apm right now

[amber fox]

15% haste right in the middle

[azure thicket]

in keys most stuff is melting so there's gonna be more downtime

recrafting isn't gonna change too much

im kinda in the same boat in 170 gear, sim is saying to run season 3 bis over stacking haste/hero trinkets except in ST probably just need 1st best stuff from raid to gain anything

band of the shattered soul/screams basically to see a spike in dps, although i was simming dslice and during raid i was doing good damage except for frac

[shrewd lantern]

lmao what there's less downtime than the spec used to have

way way less

[brisk onyx]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sand karma]

Danse Macabre isn't worth playing around at all?

SS/BP in single target or w/e?

[tulip light]

No not at all

[lilac stag]

Did you change your sim length to match fight lengths?

[haughty mural]

Disorienting strikes cdr does work again, right ?

[cursive vapor]

I think yeah

[lilac stag]

!bugs

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet

[void ocean]

pins where

[median nacelle]

thats alot of bugs

[brisk onyx]

[vale pine]

good morning lovely people

a spread of stats is good, if you can get haste and vers great

[shrewd lantern]

why would you use a mace

[vale pine]

you need 2 daggers for subtlety

the main hand because some spells require dagger in mainhand

[short radish]

all rogue specs want at min 1 dagger

even combat (outlaw)

[vale pine]

and the offhand because you want fast weapons for talents like sht

[shrewd lantern]

should really read a spec guide

[short radish]

!guide

[wicked jolt]

Guides:

• WoWhead - by fuu
• Method - by Stealthi
• Icy Veins - by Eleem

[shrewd lantern]

instead of stressing secondaries on shit gear

[vale pine]

outlaw offhand can be a 1h too

it rly isn't that big of a diffrence

he is likely new, so don't overthink it^^

[shrewd lantern]

you defaulted dagger oh since it was more flexible

outside of busted cantrips

[vale pine]

ill show you what i mean xiani

[shrewd lantern]

so why care what catchup gear is "best"

its not even remotely good gear

gets replaced in like an hour

yeah and the event gear is replaced fast because its not good

[short radish]

[shrewd lantern]

i mean

classic andy brain

ig

[short radish]

monkey

[shrewd lantern]

not really but it makes sense

since classic is just gear

there is no skill involved

[cursive vapor]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-jackson-comendo-picoca-gif-9669437860846841235

[shrewd lantern]

rich words from a twitch glad

talking pvp is the only skill form

without a single title

typically

[vale pine]

if you use a sword in offhand on subtlety, the loss is quite substantial.
Its ~2% dps - simulation

[shrewd lantern]

makes you really wonder why they never normalized them on live

they did for outlaw

[short radish]

I always find it a bit amusing when people care enough to ask the question, but not enough to read a guide which answers their question

like what's the thought process there

[vale pine]

for outlaw its half of that, and that's way higher than typical, iirc it was like 0.3-0.5% during tww.
its ~1% currently - simulation

[shrewd lantern]

spoonfed

[short radish]

because they want an answer

[shrewd lantern]

could also put it into chatgpt

tbh

some guides arnt accurate LMAO

[short radish]

yeah but why would discord be any better for getting a correct answer

[shrewd lantern]

meanwhile

guy answered you makes the guide

[vale pine]

i asked for offhand procs to be normalized, but was refused becase of the low impact

[shrewd lantern]

[vale pine]

basically the effort to maintain and change it was higher than the benefit

[short radish]

yes but again why are you trusting for all you know a random person on discord

[shrewd lantern]

you know its not a youtube guide right

youtube guides are 90% wrong

[short radish]

👀

like i get guides are wrong

[shrewd lantern]

because laziness

[short radish]

the boomkin guide said to get an agi staff

for about 3 weeks

[cursive vapor]

damn popcorn is empty

[short radish]

im genuinely curious

im not trying to flame (yet)

if you can't trust a guide sure

[shrewd lantern]

wow

[short radish]

but then why can you trust someone on discord

[shrewd lantern]

i remember when that was a funny insult

[keen dome]

I'd be impressed if classic guides were wrong since it's entirely solved content with nothing new.

[shrewd lantern]

aka highschool

[keen dome]

Wow

[shrewd lantern]

classic andies proving they're just manchidlren

[short radish]

yeah probably

[shrewd lantern]

[keen dome]

Okay he's showing his whole ass I guess.

[shrewd lantern]

i'm gonna be honest why are most classic andys people that never mentally developed past highschool

[cursive vapor]

that....wasnt smart

[teal coral]

!ban @spare briar your attitude in the first two days here isn't really ideal

[short radish]

damn guess i'll have to try find the insight into a "i dont trust guides but I trust some random response in discord" another time

[void ocean]

dude what

[shrewd lantern]

unironically calling people gay as an insult

is like

junior high shit

[cursive vapor]

tru

[keen dome]

It's pretty sad

[void ocean]

what does that have to do with liking classic

[teal coral]

for the record bro also hit filter with an n word

just btw

[short radish]

[keen dome]

Lmfao

[short radish]

dude is scottish as well

[teal coral]

anyways

[shrewd lantern]

because never developing past tht age

nostalgia is a hell of a drug

[keen dome]

Should've just let him use two maces on retail and get nowhere

[void ocean]

welcome to the sub channel sir

[vale pine]

would not say thats typical

[tender dust]

If whispyr is in the sub channel is must be bad

[vale pine]

just saw the filter hit

🤣

[teal coral]

also I would watch it

[teal coral]

seems like an upstanding gentleman

[shrewd lantern]

ehh fair

[void ocean]

i like classic and id say i developed past that age... 😄

[cursive vapor]

you should get a staff man

[shrewd lantern]

playing both is different

[keen dome]

Nah, nah. Crossbow meta

We can still equip them

[shrewd lantern]

the classic only mains are a diff breed

[teal coral]

anyways, he doesn't play classic but it's his favorite game on discord

funny guy

[shrewd lantern]

hey it was doesnt main wow

[teal coral]

[shrewd lantern]

yk its weird when people say they dont care enough about a game but care enough to asking about optimal gearing

[lone linden]

“Expert”

[shrewd lantern]

in said game

whatever happened to the casuals who just equip whatever

and just vibe

in casual games

[short radish]

that's why i want to understand their logic

[shrewd lantern]

like if i truly didnt care

i'd just play whatever sounded fun

[lone linden]

He wants to know the correct answer but doesn’t want to go to the effort of reading a guide

It’s why people cheat on tests at school

[short radish]

i wish i could not care about games

instead im a tryhard sweatlord that optimises the fun out of every game i play

[shrewd lantern]

the casuals who just vibe and mount collect

prob have a better time

ngl

[short radish]

💯

holy shit i wish i could be a causal so much

it must be so free to be able to just

not care

[void ocean]

bruh ud be surprised... a few months ago I wrote a tool for my company and in detail guide, and key takeaways at the end with a few bullets, to this day i still get bothered by ppl who didnt even go through the bullets

[shrewd lantern]

its just weird how often you see people pull "i dont care"

but also want to know whats optimal

[keen dome]

It's like that meme of the bell curve of damage.

[sly night]

Well that was a read and a half haha

[short radish]

also

[vale pine]

you know thats like building a pc for a friend

[keen dome]

Hahaha

[shrewd lantern]

yeah the people all the way left on that graph

are never the ones pulling it

[vale pine]

You instantly become the tech support for all problems with it

so its better not to^^

[keen dome]

Absolutely

[tender dust]

The right one is whispyr i can confirm

[sly night]

Helping people goes against a rogue class fantasy anyway

[vale pine]

stats do matter

unless they don't

[keen dome]

Speed always matters

[vale pine]

its a fun topic

i posted a sim in here during tww/df for bad stat distributions

[tender dust]

a few months ago whispyr made a video about assa stats that if you would recraft it would be a 0,2 upgrade and he did every simulation possible to prove that it does not matter

[vale pine]

and it can be between 10-20% dps diffrence

[short radish]

i remember that

if you went all into haste or something

[vale pine]

so thats not a trivial or "ignorable" amount

i just changed stats around

[shrewd lantern]

was that like

a full send on haste

[keen dome]

That was a good video

[shrewd lantern]

as sub

[void ocean]

i liked assa in tww where u suddenly get like versatility neck as bis 😄

[vale pine]

just switched
haste <-> vers
crit <-> mastery

so you had the same amount of stats

[keen dome]

I think (understandably) people put a ton of stock in gear as the be-all-end-all. But just pushign buttons better and understanding the content better is far more impactful for damage.

[vale pine]

just diffrently spread

the diffrence is

[shrewd lantern]

i mean the sikran neck was bis because it just gave more stat

outright

[vale pine]

class or spec design matters here

and assasination always had stats very close

so you wanted everything a bit

while outlaw is the other extreme

and it only wanted 2 specific stats

[shrewd lantern]

anytime i hear conversation about "bis trinkets"

[vale pine]

(with subtlety in between usually with 3 stats that ended up decent/good)

[shrewd lantern]

and the trinkets are only hero track

[tender dust]

i have 2% vers on sub and i still did a 90 percentile are you proud of me

[shrewd lantern]

wtff

[vale pine]

you know whats actually funny

me playing undead is a bigger diffrence in dps than getting bis trinket vs. decent option

[keen dome]

I want to get Myth Screaming Sky just "it's the best right now" and I like having the best. But it's like.. a 1k dam dif with my current gear. It's so, so minimal, haha.

[shrewd lantern]

i saw a guy in a pug playing sub

unequip his myth soleah

for a hero forge

his other trinket was hero lily btw

[keen dome]

Haha

I did a +12 with a random other rogue running Goremaw's and two on-use trinkets. it was fascinating.

[short radish]

isnt 1k a lot nowadays

like 3-4%

[keen dome]

It was like 60k DPS to 61k DPS. So yeah, it's a lot but also it's kinda whatever at this point of the expansion

[shrewd lantern]

honestly screams on farm

likely isnt bis

unless you highroll procs

[robust light]

do you guys like the new rotation orr?

[short radish]

yessnt

[keen dome]

Ye, it's fine. Sub could use another button but overall I'm diggin' it.

[robust light]

were still gonna be top of raid dmg meter yess ??

prayin

[short radish]

yessnt

[keen dome]

Sure

[void ocean]

as usual

[robust light]

yikes

[short radish]

more nnt than yes

[void ocean]

Max already confirmed 5 sub rogues in rwf

[keen dome]

It'll depend on a lotta things.

[grand wyvern]

even if it's not another button i hope with a bit of ability tuning there will be something to play around

[shrewd lantern]

idk its prepatch who cares

i log in once a week for my sale gold

[short radish]

same

[keen dome]

I'm painfully grinding Twilight Highlands currency for operation: all the transmog

[void ocean]

good thing i dont care bout that xD

[shrewd lantern]

ill do that when people qq

and it gets nerfed

[keen dome]

Haha

It's been pretty quick. like a day of rares and a bit. Since I have one of every class from lemix I'm getting all LFR+Normal transmog unlocked

[shrewd lantern]

idk theres 2 ways to always be on top of dps meter

play in a shit guild

or be ready to fotm

[keen dome]

You've forgotten the third one.

Be raid lead and assign everyone better to mechanics.

[lilac stag]

Guide writers are paid shills. Discord advice is from real people, with a real feel for the game.

[vale pine]

I think pre patch is the closest to "stats don't matter" subtlety has ever been

[robust light]

basedd

[shrewd lantern]

i feel like half the melee mechanics

are rng

[keen dome]

That won't stop me assigning you to one.

[short radish]

trueeee guide writers have been bought out by the consortium of crafters

[vale pine]

give me a sec

this is now

[keen dome]

Damn, I can buy a guide writer?

[robust light]

just give us killing spree animation and i would be happy idc if u dont like being locked into it

[shrewd lantern]

the best thing is when someone says a guide is wrong in discord

[vale pine]

vs. tww

[shrewd lantern]

to the guidewriter

[vale pine]

thats how stats spread on gear

crit/haste is rly low on the older graph

while you see on the new one, everything is very good spread out

[short radish]

im going to use this to spread misinformation whenever people come here and don't want to read a guide now. thank you

https://tenor.com/view/misinformation-spreading-spreading-misinformation-online-gif-4543841945782036495

[lilac stag]

The guides can be wrong, or written in a manner that is not clear to the reader.

[keen dome]

I think it's pretty interesting when the discussion is about like, Classic or TBC. Where the content is entirely solved to a pretty high level, too.

[lilac stag]

So that’s not weird

[vale pine]

people in here always listen to feedback on that tho ^^

[shrewd lantern]

its not like there isnt one best item

in most slots there

[lilac stag]

Rogues are just good updating and listening

[keen dome]

Ye. It's pretty solved and the knowledge is all there. It's not like Midnight where it's new stuff to sim and figure out, etc.

[lilac stag]

Yes

[vale pine]

i actually wonder

how healers/tanks do it

because inherently

[lilac stag]

a lot more yelling

[vale pine]

both is a lot more opinion driven

[shrewd lantern]

tanks just sim damage i thought

[vale pine]

like anecdotal

[shrewd lantern]

and blame healer if they die

[vale pine]

we had tanks in our guild who followed guides

[keen dome]

Tanks sim damage iirc, yeah. But also a lot of it is understanding how the spec works and what you can drop / take to gain survivability / damage.

[vale pine]

to give some more context

[keen dome]

And changing as you need

[lilac stag]

RWF seems to fucking hate the tank TCs

[grand wyvern]

according to max tanks discord are weirdly into maxing numbers rather than options

[short radish]

i had a mate who was convinced that voulk is an absolute moron who gaslit the entire pres community on bad talents (when it first came out) and he was one of 3 other people in the world who knew how to play pres properly

[vale pine]

guides typically aim to optimize not only defensives but often focus on offensives

so what heppened

is our tanks during mythic progress

simply dying

all the time

[shrewd lantern]

i mean its called theorycrafting tbf

[lilac stag]

Heal moar n00b

[vale pine]

turns out, optimizing dps when you are not playing your tank perfectly

is what guides often suggest

[keen dome]

Healers adjust is my fav thing to shout before a big pull

[grand wyvern]

i mean sure but it's supposed to align with the purpose of the game

[vale pine]

without assuming that these players often would be better off taking a bit more defensive

[shrewd lantern]

ehh i view wow tc as a

find the best numerical

[vale pine]

because thats what we did

we suggested these palyers to rather than go all in for dps

take the defensive route and only go into dps once you are sure you actually survive

[shrewd lantern]

i mean theres a reason you cant really sim tanking

dps is more cut and dry in that sense

[vale pine]

and suddenly, we had no problem anymore after 1-2 weeks of adjustment

[lilac stag]

Think of it like this. How much min max troll shit have we presented to absolute noobs to the spec that was a .2% gain in sims. People going to people.

[vale pine]

happened 2 or 3 times with new tanks we had

[shrewd lantern]

or yk

[grand wyvern]

i think guide != tc, finding the optimal setup for something is a thing, suggesting it in situations where it makes no sense another

[shrewd lantern]

people who think wf key logic

applies to their 14 key

[vale pine]

oh ye, in keys too

especially in pugs

people overpull

and then whipe

sooo many times

[keen dome]

Yeah, man. You've gotta do the skip before the third boss of the Kobold tunnel dungeon, where you pixel jump up the side, in a +7. It's the ONLY way to time it!!!

[shrewd lantern]

tbh theres alot of people who think time is the only thing that seperates

them from wf players

[lilac stag]

They’d time the keys if they took the interrupt & defensive part of high key logic instead of the pulls

[vale pine]

people care about the 0.2 or 0.3% gains sometimes

[lilac stag]

In here? More times than not I’d say

[vale pine]

macroing secret + cold blood in s2 was around that mark, it just became more extreme in s3

[shrewd lantern]

but i need x amount of crit

[vale pine]

backstab in dance in s3 was

[shrewd lantern]

clearly

[vale pine]

i coached one of my guild mates after he asked me

and using macros and giving him a pattern to play

[shrewd lantern]

number of people i saw playing rogue this tier who said they can only play one spec

due to gear

while sin and sub overlapped hard

[vale pine]

he had more success on subtlety than on other specs

[lilac stag]

Some specs just click better for people

[keen dome]

I think I only changed one item betwen Ass/Sub and it was pretty minimal too

it owned

[lilac stag]

Some people learn like project managers. Others need step by step directions to the end goal.

[shrewd lantern]

i mean sub and outlaw run on different playstyles

outlaw was entirely reactive

[robust light]

i felt like i was reacting too getting hella combo points on sub the same way i was reacting to it on outlaw, outlaw just made the buttons shiny

[shrewd lantern]

i never really needed a notif for shadowcraft refunds

crackshot just normalized it

[lilac stag]

If you tell me I need to only worry about sending Sectech with first cast of dance and to have 2 charges of dance for blades with little experience on a rogue, my brain will reverse engineer it and sort it.

It you give me a list of 8 steps I need to memorize to get to the solution of Sectech and dance lining up, I want to punch the instructor in the face.

[native zodiac]

Pov shadowdust

[vale pine]

i think its in this case just easier to break down concepts in person than any video/guide can do

it also depends on the person

[lilac stag]

I loved dust. Still miss it.

[native zodiac]

I didnt mind it on prog but farm with constantly changing timers was aids

[vale pine]

dust has this love/hate relationship

like tokin mentioned, the problem was you constantly needed to adjust

[shrewd lantern]

dust is more annoying when the solution isnt already fixed

[vale pine]

because the fights ended up so diffrent with more dps/lower kill timers

dust would be a lot simpler

if cooldown design was not super complicated

having every cooldown on diffrent timers makes using it non trivial

[tender dust]

will having 4 seconds extra SB do something significant to our kit?

[vale pine]

apex has the bigger impact

apex basically gives dance more damage

which opens pandoras box to optimizations around that

[tender dust]

Will you still be able to fully dance your SB windows?

because of the 4 seconds

[vale pine]

your shadow blades is longer, so you will easier fit 2 dances in ^^

[void ocean]

i tried ds sub on a dummy just a bit, but seems like dance has a lot bigger uptime

are we fine with it

[vale pine]

well, we can't rly control it

its around 45-50% uptime

which is a lot

[void ocean]

yea, even tho i dont have any haste

it felt like shadowlands

[vale pine]

shadowlands was even higher

could reach up to 60-70%

[void ocean]

yea, it was a long time ago

[vale pine]

the main culprit is haste tho

it woud be less high without the haste extension

[void ocean]

so that means we will have more flatline dmg

than tww

[torn tide]

yo is mythic dungeons in m+ hard? i heard people were shitting themselves in beta

[lilac stag]

[void ocean]

well thats not flatline

[vale pine]

m+ on beta was as hard or slightly harder than live

[lilac stag]

Dance is bursty, we pop it often. We still dont do a lot of damage outside of it.

the 3 specs all hit different dmg profile roles, which is nice

[void ocean]

but is dance less bursty than tww

[lilac stag]

Everything is less bursty.

you also had less casts between 90 seconds

[void ocean]

yea, thats what im trying to calculate in my mind rn, since ofc the uptime is higher id expect dmg to be lower

[lilac stag]

It’s more flexible, still high burst

[torn tide]

ahhh okay well surely it'll be fine after we get used to the dungeons

[lilac stag]

It’s not apples to apples. We went from playing around SoD to playing around Sectech.

The second chart is 90 seconds without getting the second blades off

[vale pine]

we played around secret too in tww

just saying

[lilac stag]

3 casts of dance vs 1

[lilac stag]

Symbols was the limiting resource. Now it’s Sectech.

If you didn’t plan around symbols you eventually screwed up Sectech

Now if you don’t plan around Sectech, you eventually screw up dance.

[vestal escarp]

GM

[vale pine]

you had to consider both before, even tho secret was up more

[brave carbon]

Do you ever use 1 dagger and 1 slow weapon as sub? cause i have a hero fist weap in bag but using explorer dagger in offhand cause i had no other dagger xD

[vale pine]

nope

always 2 daggers

[lilac stag]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[brave carbon]

Okey, keep farming for a weap then:)

[lilac stag]

Is the visions vendor still up?

[vale pine]

you can get a cheap one from ah or pre event

[lilac stag]

Or the dudes near dawnbreaker

[vale pine]

ye

offhand item level is not super impactful

[brave carbon]

yea i did get one from ah, explorer one

[void ocean]

do we get to have a sec tech in the 2nd dance under blades?

how much haste do we need for that

[brave carbon]

When do we swap to storm and powder, like how many mobs does it require?

[vale pine]

you can't

[void ocean]

https://giphy.com/gifs/the-office-michael-scott-horrible-bosses-6gLyE15StAs3C

[vale pine]

maybe with super high haste in midnight because of tier set

[void ocean]

oh, i tho it was just me not having any haste

[vale pine]

i personally would like to have a reset on secret

when using dance

kinda like shot in the dark works

using dance without secret feels not great

[void ocean]

well yea, it goes from boring to super boring

[vestal escarp]

One cast per shbaldes

Would mean the skill has to hit like a truck

[void ocean]

https://giphy.com/gifs/reaction-dragonball-z-mXz3v0UdjrNTO

[vestal escarp]

Which is just not the case

But i guess making sectech like usable only in dance once but every dance might have lead to oversimplification

[brave carbon]

Do we storm and powder on 2 mobs or need to be more to make a difference?

[tribal blade]

design goal of the spec should be to be able to cast at LEAST 1 sectec per dance

[vale pine]

would like that

[void ocean]

yea but im not sure how they would do it with these simplified rotations

some reactive play maybe where u have like % to get Sectech proc, or cd reset

[slate marlin]

But thats the case already, you only sectec in dance and only once in sb

If sectech was only usable once per dance nothing qould really change except having 2 in sb

[vestal escarp]

But it's not hardcoded like that

[slate marlin]

Doesnt need to be for it to be the case

Ofc with tiersets or with new abilities or whatever it could change and they maybe dont want to lose the chance to change it

[vestal escarp]

As fuu said S1 tierset already pushes that to the extrem with unrealistic amounts of haste

[vale pine]

just give secret a long cd and add shots

shots means you have 1 use every dance

[azure thicket]

was simming dslice and in st at default length it preferred hero sack/170 prism will double check cause i do have a hero dimmy ring in my bags good catch we're running with heroic raider trials and stuff was dying just shy of or over 4 minutes

[vale pine]

adn the extra use is where players can optimize around

[slate marlin]

Give us crackshot on sectech

So we can steal more from outlaw

[vale pine]

outlaw stole from us :/

[azure thicket]

logic is in the sub faq, 2+ outside out dance 3+ in afair

kinda wanna try sending coup as the last spender in aoe in dances idk if it matters lol

[lilac stag]

The fights are all over before prism gets stacks except dimmy

[slate marlin]

We stole dreadblades, thats a w for sub

[azure thicket]

ye im just gonna run araz antenna for next reclear

[vestal escarp]

Until we didnt anymore

[slate marlin]

Yeah🤣

[azure thicket]

maybe vault will drop a projector or something, i waunt it lol

[dry plank]

My god! Brilliant give it to me

[slate marlin]

Cant wait to have 40% haste and chain sectech resets

[austere spear]

is antenna bis still?

[fringe ruin]

Never thought id see myself play sub from all rogue specs

[vale pine]

we don't have db

blades doubles cp gain

[slate marlin]

I know

But we did

[vale pine]

it does no self harm too

if anything outalw (and sin) stole heavily from subtlety

• double vanish
• double shadow step
• shadow dance (which is now vanish + subterfuge)
  all nodes which ended up exclusively to subtlety

meanwhile the shared nodes between outlaw/sin all got removed or moved back to exclusive spec

extended aa range is gone

[azure thicket]

dslice says replace it with 170 screams and that's about it

[vale pine]

and cp on crit is gone

[torn tide]

WHAT

[vale pine]

from subtlety

[torn tide]

thats just sad

[vale pine]

wdym

it just moved back to the sin tree

so only exclusively to assassiantion

while it initially was shared

[austere spear]

ah i havent killed dimmy yet. I just came back this last week and hit 146 trying to get bis cause the guild i joined is still raiding. So far ive got crafted bracers weapon and ring unsure why i can't just run double crafted daggers

[austere spear]

does this heavily impact sub in midnight?

[vale pine]

no

that was done in df

[keen dome]

Well, you can run double crafted daggers. At this point it's pretty whatever, really.

[slate marlin]

Double vanish and subterfuge has very little uses now

Its kind of dead

[vale pine]

it initially was part of the general tree

then in the season 3 update moved back to the sin tree

my point was just to discuss what was "stolen" between specs

because stolen in this context typically means having something thats exclusive to one spec

suddenly on another spec or class or shared

[austere spear]

I see

[austere spear]

I figured just figured i'd get as close to bis as possible even at the end since ill be maining rogue come midnight

[azure thicket]

honestly in dungeons with a udk and warrior wouldn't be surprised if i do need to use hero trinks but idk eyeballing stuff

[slate marlin]

Most of the stolen stuff are now back ti the respective specs no?

[vale pine]

pre patch is wild

in a lot of things

[vale pine]

well its like this

shadow dance was on the general tree

[slate marlin]

Ywah

It was fun to have it on the other specs

[vale pine]

it gives you 6 sec of stealth ability use after pressing the spell

[slate marlin]

Kingsbane dance was fun

[vale pine]

but

they changes it

so now subterfuge extends your stealth ability use of vanish to the 6 sec

[void ocean]

dude assa SD is among the most cursed sh*t that ever saw the daylight

[vale pine]

and they added a node that gives you 2 charges of vanish

so you can have shadow dance

in the form of vanish

on both other specs

and even get 2 charges of it

assassiantion still has access to 2 shadow steps

which was previousely subtlety exclusive

[keen dome]

BiS is only BiS with every identical item on it which at this point isn't realistic to hit. Just go for iLevel and slam stuff together.

[vale pine]

so technically seen, subtlety shares a lot of unique parts with other specs now

making it less stand out

and with midnight, things get even more homogenized

e.g. cooldown reduction talents are gone

which was a big part of the flow of subtlety

rotational complexity is now almost always accidental

ill give some examples of what i mean

if you think of skill expression now, it comes down to a lot less

one part is the use of macros to be sure to get all benefits of shadow dance

this is because of the change away from cdr to the haste scaling of dance duration

which is in concept okay

but the execution is not well thought out

input lag, latency and human error create an enviroment you can actively lose globals

simply because the haste extension is in 0.1 sec parts and this can be low enough to now allow you one extra use even with the slightest delay

depending on haste values ofc

so, to counteract this

we start macroing spells to shadow dance

so idealy you would macro dance + strike

but developers broke the spell during DF/TWW

so the macro is now not possible anymore

if you macro you need to press the key twice to cast strike

but the 2nd press is typically slightly delayed, so can be enough to lose you a gcd

[sly shore]

[vale pine]

the solution then becomes

to macro secret technique

but this creates diffrent problems

you don't want to delay secret technique casts because its a static cd

[lilac stag]

At least the 90 second cd is gone. Stop taking our shit.

[vale pine]

so what you do can either be:

• pool cp to have full cp at the start of dance
• delay the cast of secret

but thats also not always efficient

so, another workaround is to use dance + storm in a macro when on low combo points

using storm is now fine, only a small damage loss

mostly because of silent storm (which makes it crit ever time) and it being buffed by shadow dance (does twice the damage)

as well as triggering danse macabre

basically means, we estimate how much loss it is to add artificial delays

and then value it against the use of storm

and it turns out, it is more consistent and reliable to do so, without much dps loss

[lilac stag]

Did you break the fuuanator?

[vale pine]

so basically:

• Because they broke shadow dance macros (accidentally)
• Because Deepening Shadows rework does increase dance duration in small increments (intentionally, but the team likely underestimated the impact, so would say this is complexity by accident)
  two accidental problems lead to a waterfall of consequences

making things way more complicated than they need to be

[sly shore]

He's on a mad one

[vale pine]

and this applies to most of our optimizations now

macroing secret with a cancleaura

because apex 1 does not interact with secret technique

using shadowstrike even on full cp when apex 3 procs instead of a finisher

a consequence of the very high ressource income from sht because of apex talents and apex talent interaction

also very much not intentional, as it creates gameplay thats not intuitive

so from a technical/objective pov, most of the "skill expression" is not by design

this is btw. typical for subtlety

death from above was a side effect of a change to shadow dance which was not predicted

and many other things too

e.g. cold blood did initially not work on all secret technique attacks

but when investigating vanish, i found out that cold blood would stay active as long as you wouldn't use another spell

so the gameplay around it became stupid, you used cold blood after secret

and waited for the last clone attack

then continued your rotation

blizz devs noticed it, and actually did embrace it

[tender dust]

https://tenor.com/view/benjammins-aint-reading-all-that-im-happy-for-u-tho-or-sorry-that-happened-im-happy-for-you-thought-or-sorry-that-happened-gif-16532884834168127420

[vale pine]

and changed secret technique to crit on all parts, removing the interaction

[tender dust]

JK JK ( dont ban me)

[vale pine]

all fine

[tender dust]

I've read everything btw 😄

[vale pine]

i just gave a lot of context to my explanation

[cursive vapor]

fuu is a master of details

[vale pine]

rogues always had good theorycrafting

and i am happy we still have so many people engage with it

more knowlage just means its easier to put things together

benefits everyone