subtlety

[alpine wraith]

at least they have 1 more month or so to fix ancient arts

but shadowcraft and blades will be silly

or well actually shadowcraft is also from arts so maybe only blades

[swift tinsel]

I'm hopeful but not expectant

[alpine wraith]

maybe blades is already fixed in one of the internal builds it is one of the classic oopsie wrong value

just hasnt been merged in any of the pushed builds

[wispy pebble]

Man i just returned after like a year or so and pressing bstab instead of ss after sd is me fighting my muscle memory tooth and nail

[shrewd lantern]

i feel bs first global of dance has been a thing since danse macabre released

Well, in opener at least when you arent pooling resources to stech first dance global

[fallow nimbus]

Fixing blades should be trivial

Like if something should do ×2 but someone forgot the ×

[swift tinsel]

fatal intent but make it combo points

[shrewd lantern]

Look the janitor who works on sub on his bathroom break will get to it

eventually maybe

[alpine wraith]

it is worse should have just been 100% extra cp

but decided 2% was the thing

maybe forgot the x yea

[chrome palm]

It works on storm for whatever reason

[hardy snow]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[limpid sage]

Don’t worry we’re going back to ss in dance soon

[maiden oar]

shadowstrike????

[alpine wraith]

shuriken storm

even cooler

[lofty saffron]

How will sub change in midnight given only 1 sectech during blades?

[alpine wraith]

you can get 2

idk if there are guides already but i did a video some weeks ago not much has changed

from then i mean the spec itself has had some changes but also there are a few gamebreaking bugs

affecting cp gen so it is a bit weird

[lofty saffron]

Ah gotcha. So typical usage and pooling for blades even with the changes? The cd timings had me confused

[alpine wraith]

it will be a bit different for a bit

we still dont even know if some things are worth

[lofty saffron]

Wait how are you getting 2 during blades? Sectech has a cd of like 20+ seconds right?

[alpine wraith]

you use a haste on use

and you have some haste in gear so it does go below 20 secs

but also it may not even be wroth to use 2 in blades

as you can supercharge it on the third dance

and that may be more dps

[lofty saffron]

Oh okay makes sense.. thank you!

[torn cedar]

anyone got some beta m+ build i could yoink for testing?

[plush roost]

Phone drawing go crazy style

With apex talent obv

Smthn like this will do the job for u

Can drop imp sec tec for something else if u desire

[maiden oar]

oh ok

[cursive vapor]

!stats

[wicked jolt]

The following is a general recommendation, but you will always get more accurate results through simming your gear through Top Gear.
Mastery >= Versatility >= Critical Strike >>> Haste

[rancid minnow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[limpid sage]

I actually meant strike ye, but we also do storm next season I think?

[maiden oar]

[limpid sage]

Not in ST

[maiden oar]

i gotta start playing beta

[limpid sage]

I gotta do brawlers guild

[maiden oar]

i forogt about that hehe

[vale pine]

should be quite quick if you are decently geared, the waiting times might be lower during the holidays

[azure thicket]

also salhadaar with the stinky bright pot is a vibe

[vale pine]

have fun

[azure thicket]

thanks, couldn't have gotten this far without the people in this discord 🙂

[cursive vapor]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[thick latch]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[brisk thunder]

!bug

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Bug tracker: Spreadsheet | Github Tracker

[wispy pebble]

Is it normal to have sectec misalign with sd charges at one point?

[vale pine]

you essentially use your cooldowns together, so unclear what you mean

[wispy pebble]

sometimes i have like 10 secs left on SD charge wehn sectec is up

[vale pine]

basically, if you learn you can go with this rule

you will always use secret as first finisher in shadow dance if possible

[wispy pebble]

yea sd stab then sectec

[vale pine]

and align 2 dance charges to flagelaltion / blades

this leads to this 90 sec cycle

1: dance - dance (during blades/flag) - dance - dance
2: dance - dance (during blades/flag) - dance
repeat

symbols always lined up with dance/secret too in a way to empower secret

[wispy pebble]

yea symbols seems fine always ists just SD thats not ready all the time. Will pay attention to what i fuck up. thx!

[vale pine]

but also

symbols will get removed in less than 30 days

so the spec will become noticably simpler

[wispy pebble]

wait what. I didnt see that 🙁

[vale pine]

you lose the following active cooldowns:

• flagellation
• symbols of death
• cold blood (is now a passive)

the cdr of dance and secret is gone too, so the entire spec is very static

[wispy pebble]

Yea flag and cb i knew just didnt see sod removal as well

[vale pine]

there is in general a big cut down on buttons

you reduce the button count by 3 from the above

additionally

you lose rupture, bringing it up to 4

and, if you used backstab during shadow dance, that won't be worth it

makes another free button

midnight rly focuses on making specs focused and simple

which isn't bad, just very diffrent

[wispy pebble]

yea im happy they do that but sod is kinda iconic for sub

[vale pine]

its a design decision

many spells got just made redundant to be removable over time

rupture and symbols are the best examples for it

[wispy pebble]

i really hope i get a poison reminder lmao. Since the WA wont work

[royal whale]

Do buffs snapshot for Sectech? when im playing first dance in keys the 2nd Sectech lines up sometimes so that i can cast the spell when the first shadowdance is still active but the actual dmg comes through when its the 2nd one

[latent finch]

no it updates live. So if the ghosts from sectech hit out of dance they dont get buffed from dm and all other dance stuff. You can have enough cdr to get all ghosts in the first dance dance

[royal whale]

is the cdr dep on coup procs or haste?

oh actually just sending my 2nd symbols earlier might do the trick

[latent finch]

haste does not give anything on live

Yes that helps. But you need to be sure that the second finisher is sectech to buff it

[vale pine]

damage amplifiers are dynamic, so they buff stuff when they are up

the only thing that snapshots is cold blood

basically cold blood makes all secret hits critical

which is why we use both together

[fathom adder]

did anyone have the shirts drop from random brawls in brawlers guild or still bugged?

[rare sedge]

do we cleave with nimble flurry from our position or the position of the add we hit? 😄

[vale pine]

from your position

[lean arrow]

As much as i think Sub is cool imma have to stick to Sin i suck at sub

[wind canopy]

I mean, sub gonna change a little bit when the pre-patch comes out, so can wait until then and give it another shot?

[safe forge]

\

[vale pine]

subtlety becomes a lot simpler in midnight/pre patch, can wait for that

[lyric violet]

What i like of sub is the feeling of play the piano XD

[vale pine]

the piano will lose 4-5 keys in pre patch

[alpine wraith]

dont worry people will still come to us for the big guides

there is no escape

[slender trail]

@vale pine do you feel slowness/staleness of the spec after losing the abilities flag,sod,cb, and rupture?
I love sub as it is now 🙁 lol

[vale pine]

your baseline cooldowns get lower

so dance is 20 sec cooldown

[slender trail]

Was gonna hop in beta tonight and give it a run.. assuming a loose opener would just be stealth-Shadowstrike-dance-blades-SecTech?

[vale pine]

which means you use dance a lot

so it does not feel that much slower

just a lot simpler because you are mostly bound to a more strict sequence of actions

e.g. the biggest change you notice immidiatly is

you won't be able to use secret techniques 2 times in blaes

*blades

[slender trail]

Woof

[vale pine]

because, its a static cooldown now

[slender trail]

Is dance macabre removed?

Or is it still there..
E.g. SecTech ends our dance ?

[vale pine]

no its still there but it does damage instead of increasing damage

means it does not matter when you use a spell during dance

[slender trail]

Ahh damn. So then it doesn’t quite matter

[vale pine]

we also won't use backstab in dance

[slender trail]

With the nimble flurry changes - can I swap to deathstalker?!???

[vale pine]

because backstab is now noticably worse than strike

but they buffed storm a lot

and you get the guaranteed crit node for free

[slender trail]

Oh shit. I haven’t used storm in ages lol

[vale pine]

so we likely will use storm once in dance

even on single target

you can switch deathstalker potentially

it just plays like shit

because moving mark is even more annoying

[slender trail]

Well I play like shit - so it’s fitting:)

[slender trail]

Marks a debuff and not a buff on us?

Figured they would’ve went the same route they did with find weakness. Rip

[vale pine]

the problem is

deathstalkers mark can now only be applied to other targets with the capstone

so you can't just use dance

and apply it to a new target

the change was seemingly done to make it work better for assassiantion

because it made no sense for subtlety

[slender trail]

Ofc

[vale pine]

but even for them its more annoying

so f

[slender trail]

Good

lol

Why tf is SnD still an active talent at this point?

I feel like removing rupture but keeping slice n dice was pointless

[distant bison]

when u play rotten in m+ u prio shuriken for find weakness stacks or keep striking to get coup goin? i know some situations u gotta shuriken anyways one of the rotten stacks but if lets say u have 2x coup stacks already u do strike tech strike coup or shuriken for aoe find weakness and post pone coup?

[vale pine]

because its a confusing mechanic

that you don't notice

[glad silo]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[scenic plover]

did anything change for the sub raid builds or sth? i did some really bad parses today and i am not sure if thats just on me

:)

[somber vortex]

am i misunderstanding the trickster hero talent 'so tricky' - is it supposed to last for 1 hour?

[bleak night]

tricks has two parts, the actual threat redirect lasts 1 hour, but you have to hit something within like 15s of casting tricks to start the threat redirection

[glad silo]

Hey is is a 730 pacemaker better then a 717 araz for m+ its sims better but what do you guys think

[ebon citrus]

Referring to tbc
Im having trouble setting up step>sap and step>CS arena123 macros, can anyone help?

[vale pine]

the server focuses on retail wow, most in here don't play the classic variants

[swift tinsel]

got another one with the tier lists lol

[quaint lodge]

!coup

[wicked jolt]

Coup de Grace Optimizations:

• **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
• Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
• Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.

[quaint lodge]

!bp

!sod

[wicked jolt]

Macro to prevent accidental uses of extra charges: #showtooltip Symbols of Death /castsequence reset=2 Symbols of Death,null /cqs

[quaint lodge]

!aoe

[wicked jolt]

General Gist of the Aoe rotation

• At ALL target counts cast Coup de Grace when it is ready.
• At ALL target counts cast Shadowstrike during Shadow Dance, not Shuriken Storm. (unless coup is ready, !coup)
• Cast Black powder instead of regular Eviscerate at 4 or more targets (there is no other secret rule).

[wicked urchin]

rank 8 lets fucking go

[shrewd lantern]

Well I mean yeah your forge is only hero track.

double on use only really shines if your tanks are consistently pulling decent packs to let you constantly use cds as they come up

[alpine wraith]

and also if they pull bigger when the 18 stack is ready

or into boss

not in a dps way always but in a way that makes the dungeon faster most of the time

[vale pine]

nicuu

[wispy pebble]

is the dungeon slice sim correct? Black powder isnt close to nr 1 dmg ability in my runs

[alpine wraith]

you use sims to know what to gear more or less

not the dmg you will do or the %

it will depend a lot on dungeons and pulls

[wispy pebble]

Okay thanks 😄

[prime raft]

hey guys getting back into after taking a short break what is meta belt now i assume securing was nerfed

[vale pine]

the patch is only 20 days left

you should just have fun atm

so no need to worry about meta

[snow haven]

Folks having fun with sub in beta?

[vale pine]

it in the end comes down to your expectation

it isn't as exciting for most subtlety mains, as it mostly simplifies things and removes certain agency

but mains from other rogue specs typically love the simplicity

there is no correct answer, as your own expectations for midnight will depend how much you enjoy the change

[snow haven]

I come from enhance and fury, so my taste for complexity runs the gamut. I don't mind a lighter mental load these days XD

[sour horizon]

Hance is looking great in Midnight imo

[vale pine]

i think midnight is perfect for everyone who does like simple and foucused rotations

[snow haven]

I like complexity, but there's also something to be said for 'simple but engaging'

I guess I'm lookin for that more than anything. Too braindead and I get bored, but simple with a pleasant loop suits me fine

and sub's 'vibe' is interesting. A more shadowy kinda rogue

[sour horizon]

OG wotlk Frost DK was my peak faceroll class

[vale pine]

thats also super subjective

like ret paladin

is one spec people LOVE, like literally love to play

its the most palyed melee spec in game

yet, it is super simple, to the point i personally would say its boring

[snow haven]

Ret's on the 'too simple' side for me to get into. And the fantasy of the crusader knight doesn't get me goin XD

[vale pine]

but all these people find it to have enough depth and a pleasant enough gameplay loop to not get bored or get a feeling of brainrot

[sour horizon]

Sub went a little too far, its straight up build combo and spend, with aoe or single target option, a solid base to start from imo. If we kept symbols for supercharger that would have me 100%

I still love sub tho

[vale pine]

i think subtlety has just a very nice idea behind shadow dance

[sour horizon]

Hitting a fat sectech will never get old

[vale pine]

so this concept can carry a lot, even if the gameplay loop becomes very simple

and in Midnight it migth become 2 rotational buttons in aoe

[sour horizon]

Ninjablink stab is extremely fun too, makes leveling and random solo stuff feel fun

[vale pine]

the teleport on shadowstrike was a great decision to keep from stealth

[sour horizon]

One of the biggest downsides to current sub is the boring downtime, which is getting shorter thanks to dance cd being lower

[vale pine]

its a little fun mechanism to give the spec uniqueness

similar to no fall damage

or being able to sprint on water

[sour horizon]

No fall damage was so good

[vale pine]

or funnel damage in aoe

just to clearify, everything outside of the teleport on shadowstrike was removed from the spec (ver time)

entirely without good reason or compensation

[snow haven]

Didn't see the 'midnight-subtlety' channel XD I'll poke around there and do some more testing in the beta. It seems it could be a good alt for me coming up

[vale pine]

[sour horizon]

Didnt they make the sprint on water a glyph!

[vale pine]

they removed it iirc

or did i missremember

[sour horizon]

I have no idea lol

[vale pine]

let me quick login

[sour horizon]

I still use my artifact fishing pole to just walk on water

[vale pine]

same

[sour horizon]

Or have ghetto travel forn

[vale pine]

kinda annoying that you often need to either cast fishing or swap poles to get it

[sour horizon]

Yeah I swap, kept the wrath water breathing and artifact

And swap between the 2

[vale pine]

i am undead

so underwater breathing baked in

[sour horizon]

I was ☹️

[vale pine]

to be fair

undead is 1.5% worse dps wise

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sour horizon]

I bought 3 race changes coz sale atm lol

The dracthyr dragon annoys me on login screen

[vale pine]

oh, i don't plan on switching race

but its funny how people often comment on trinket diffrences of 0.3% to be gigantic

meanwhile, will tell you race choice is personal

[sour horizon]

I change wayyyy too much, just to change it up. Im looking at goblin again xD

[vale pine]

don't do it

[fallow nimbus]

I went voidelf for mugzee and never went back

[sour horizon]

I just like goblins!

[vale pine]

it was^^

but they removed it in legion

[sour horizon]

Wow removed to a lame smoke step

[fallow nimbus]

Wasn't it baseline for sub in legion?

[vale pine]

then gave it to subtlety

in bfa

legion had no fall damage

[fallow nimbus]

Airborne rogue. I was a menace in the air in wpvp quests

Was a bit harder once perm strike teleport was removed

[sour horizon]

I remember the pvp towers

Was a good time

And using the goats and rare spawn dragon in Stormheim

You could stealth while on the dragon haha

[fallow nimbus]

Sap into kidney into goat charge

Kill dh with falldmg

I will never forget when i killed 2 dhs that way, they came back and found some other rogue and camped him

[sour horizon]

[bleak night]

I swear they said at one point that you'd be able to appear as your visage form on the warband screen in midnight

But no sign of it yet

Idk if I gaslit myself into believing that was a plan when it wasnt

But it makes me so sad seeing my priest in ugly dragon form

[mystic ice]

Is it not a part of the new situations for transmog? Thats where i saw it mentioned last

[bleak night]

That would be a weird way to implement it

But tbf i haven't checked

So maybe

[prime raft]

i will always be a mag orc

[mighty ravine]

Good year to all our comunity 🙂

[patent crystal]

Happy new year

[unreal silo]

is sub m+ weird af or im regarded. jjust came back since uldir

[sour horizon]

Playing trickster or deathstalker?

Trickster is more straightforward imo

[unreal silo]

trickster. guide said ds is kinda banned

it feels weird to not use a lot of fok/powder

[sour horizon]

That will change in 20days

[unreal silo]

alright

[sour horizon]

We use fan and powder for aoe since nimble flurry doesn't work on evis in midnight

Its a odd time to come back coz itll change in a few weeks with pre patch hah

We also lose rupture, symbols and flagellation

[exotic kelp]

huh

[cursive vapor]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[prisma ruin]

can anyone please tell me why this macro results in shadow blades sometimes not activating?

#showtooltip shadow blades
/cast shadow dance
/cast symbols of death
/cast shadow blades
/cast thistle tea
/use Astral Gladiator's Badge of Ferocity

[limpid sage]

If you don’t have any dance or symbols charges I’d imagine?

Don’t see any other reason

But typically cds don’t stop the macro, so idk

No I think it might be if you’re already in dance, since you can’t use dance while in dance

[crystal atlas]

Is it worth Rupturing in packs on all mobs if you dont have CDs up?

[chrome palm]

With replicating shadows yes. Your finishers do paltry damage outside of cds, the main focus is to reduce the cd of secret and dance. Rupture itself does significantly more damage in cds. You should also try to use secret outside of cds in m+ when possible, specifically in large packs when you cannot use symbols and flag has >16s on its duration

[crystal atlas]

Alright makes sense

I just noticed that I am having next to 0 damage did 5.1m overrall in a 12 DB

Seems super low

[chrome palm]

Subs damage window lasts for about 30s with all cds, so its hard to get full value out of them in a low key

[crystal atlas]

Even when in packs doing SS and Powder feels like a wet noodle

[hazy breach]

If you dont have Dance up you'll be doing literally no damage

[zinc mango]

Idk if my question is in the right place but in Throne of Thunder in Mop Classic, the First Boss "Jin'rokh the Breaker" how do you play arround the puddle's when you have to stand behind the Boss for Backstab&Ambush?

[bright beacon]

there's a rogue classic channel I can link in dms

[zinc mango]

thx

[queen plinth]

is rogue giga fucked in midnight atm? or does it look good

[swift tinsel]

bugged but chill

[alpine wraith]

yea numbers are whatever and gameplay will get better

[empty plume]

you get your tank to drag the boss into the puddle

[elder crow]

There is not Channel of subtlely midnight?

[tidal marsh]

#midnight-subtlety

[azure thicket]

oh yeah also dawnbreaker is kinda wonky for overally damage

it benefits from araz trinket etc but measuing performance with one dawnbreaker isn't sound

try a gambit or eco dome i guess/think

[wild hornet]

!up

[wicked jolt]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/475024539693219850/1403486905915408524/Dark_Mode.jpg

[queen plinth]

so rogue is not doomed and its goingf a good way?

[wild hornet]

in phase 3 of dimensius - does shadowstepping to dimmy teleport you to a certain point every time like it was on gallywix, or is it always behind relative to where the tank is facing him

havent paid attention to that so i dont remember

[hazy breach]

Always the same spot

[fossil forge]

#showtooltip
/cast [@boss1, nodead, exists][] Shadowstep

dimmy step button

[fleet acorn]

Pretty much useless just normal step is enough don’t need any specific macro cause u have him in your target anyway

[prime raft]

made sub rogue way to easy might be time to wrap up my wow career

[warm marlin]

you cant target him while falling so spamming a macro like that lets you insta target and get into melee with him faster

[round latch]

happy/healthy new year mr fuu

@tepid trellis also you mr raccoonlord

[vale pine]

happy new year

[alpine wraith]

happy new year

first day of the year working hit diff

[vale pine]

[chrome palm]

You can macro flagellation into shadow step which is quite useful

[fossil forge]

My goat .

Ts had to be ragebait

[lethal kettle]

Human race OP for sub in Midnight?

Deepening shadows increases duration of shadowdance based off numerical haste; hero/bloodlust doesnt work, raw % doesnt either HOWEVER, I did discover that human racial is 2% from SOURCE so in effect you get 2% incrase to the numerical value and did confirm on beta that it works towards deepening shadows.

[vale pine]

human is always a decent option, probably not op

if any race is op, it will get nerfed

[lethal kettle]

OP probalby isnt the right word for it, but early game I'm wondering if we will see some haste breakpoints that human will achieve easier.

[vale pine]

there is always a outliner that gets removed before things go live

e.g. one time it was pandaren because the food buff was so good

one time undead came out ahead, just to then fall off a cliff super fast

to be fair undead has ever since been a terrible dps race

some outliners existed for a long time too

e.g. bloodelf was one of the bigger ones with the aoe silence, almost mandatory in m+ for some seasons

nightelf was for one season too at least, when you could reset the seaosn mechanic by using it

race in general should be cosmetic, its weird that there are still ~1.5% diffrences in output based on race choice

[grand wyvern]

they do it to get free money from FOMO minmaxers at this point i am sure

[vale pine]

don't think so

the popular races are not that far off

so for most, its not reasonable to switch

[warm marlin]

Realistically most who care about having a fomo character for m+ just have nelfs/dwarfs ready

[grand wyvern]

it's nopt aimed at the general public, but there is a mass of people that will raceswap to fotm even if it is almost insignificant

[vale pine]

i don't think anyone race switches outside of lke the top 0.01%

[warm marlin]

if ur m+ fomo alts aren’t dwarf already what are you doing

frfr

[vale pine]

dwarf was for at least one season

quite good due to the dispell

while at the ssame time being the highest damage race

[warm marlin]

maghar/dwarf all of tww

[vale pine]

quite funny actually

[grand wyvern]

it should be like this, yet you see constantly asked which race is best and put into guide, there is an interest in what outputs slightly more

[vale pine]

there is an interesst

and if anyone wants to switch, he should be able to

i am not here to tell anyone how to waste their money, even if they want to set it on fire to get 0.1% dps

[grand wyvern]

fair enough

[lethal kettle]

This is just a point in the games life where theory crafting is particularly fun. I'm not the top 1% that needs to crank out the difference... like im gonna get CE before week 13 or something XD

[vale pine]

theory crafting is fun, race choice mostly is irrelevant for it

tho in m+ more so, because some seasonal affixes are designed poorly

[lethal kettle]

the only race i would say is 100% not a good choice is undead... which is a shame. it needs a rework. Will is cool for that ONE mob that fears in manaforge; recuperate baseline just made canabilize taken right off the bars.

[vale pine]

tho towards that, maybe troll could be relevant in pre patch/midnight

[lethal kettle]

troll is flat % is it not?

[vale pine]

hey, i am undead ^^

[lethal kettle]

im an undead believer okay. im cira 2005, i live for the day undead is rogue go to

[vale pine]

hmm

berserking might not work with the haste dance extension, you are right

[lethal kettle]

same for NE

thats why human peaked my interest

[warm marlin]

you know what does though

The real king race

[lethal kettle]

lol yes, but every 2 minutes

[grand wyvern]

gnomes?

[left ledge]

Human been the superior rogue race since vanilla

Ngl

[warm marlin]

I hope human is good because human looks sick

Burning gold on the race change item

[vale pine]

mecha gnomes was best for a while

[left ledge]

Perception against other rogues is just so good

[swift tinsel]

human male makes armor look too bulky, human female armor models are pretty solid

[vale pine]

but nobody is willing to sacrafice their dignity to play mecha gnome

[left ledge]

I love human females

[warm marlin]

male any race 🤢

[swift tinsel]

hey male undead owns

[left ledge]

Male panda 😍

[swift tinsel]

scottdk will forever be undead

[lethal kettle]

honestly honestly orc is gonna pull ahead cause gear will meet the breakpoints and the flat numerical racial will be best. LET ME HAVE MY THEORIES

[warm marlin]

Hunchback of notre dame

[grand wyvern]

i went human female mostly for mogs

[left ledge]

Ya mog > stats

[lethal kettle]

real talk

[swift tinsel]

yeah from carrying the coolness factor for every other race

[left ledge]

Racials should just become special talents you can pick

Kinda outdated for retail

[warm marlin]

Female maghar isn’t that bad though I can’t complain

[lethal kettle]

i would argue that if you look good you prefrom better

[warm marlin]

Much better than stuck on dwarf

[swift tinsel]

racials like swapping pet types

would own

[lethal kettle]

blood fang on human female? story as old as time.. because DAYYYUM

some nighblades

[left ledge]

For classic i love the clear distinction between racials

[lethal kettle]

pfffff

[left ledge]

But retail needs to lose it

[lethal kettle]

+100k dps

[swift tinsel]

idk I like female nelf over human female for armor look and animations

plus you're flippy

which adds like 5% dps

[left ledge]

Female nelf looks too rectangular to me

[warm marlin]

I also like female nelf it’s just slightly too tall imo

[left ledge]

Their frame just puts me off idk why

[warm marlin]

or ya something about that is a little weird

[swift tinsel]

plus they get the messy hair look that really does it for me

[lethal kettle]

hold on boys... this racial rabbit hole isnt deep enough. what if you picked race off how it looks for abilities? Belf death from above??? unconested KOOL looking

[left ledge]

Yeah I do keep in mind the animations

[swift tinsel]

does belf male still do that whole "swing your 2h weapon behind your body" bullshit

[grand wyvern]

there is no such thing as belf male

[left ledge]

Yeah belf male animations look too flamboyant

[swift tinsel]

I miss undead female frontflip attack

truly peak

[lethal kettle]

https://tenor.com/view/pour-one-out-for-the-homies-old-english800-gif-14309934

undead rogues

front flip finishers and just cool looking

[vale pine]

the best solution would be to allow you to select both racial dps and utility ability

[swift tinsel]

plus they get the springy jaunty run animation

[lethal kettle]

blizzards Q1 report has a different opinion

[swift tinsel]

this would actually be so awesome

[vale pine]

being able to switch dynamically would allow people to optimize it

tho i would assume you needed a weekly cooldown or so

[lethal kettle]

shareholders toilet seats arent gold enough.. no optimized racials for you

[vale pine]

to prevent abuse

[swift tinsel]

idk

[vale pine]

because i don't think

[swift tinsel]

they tried that with convenants

[vale pine]

per boss race

is something anyone wants

covenants was diffrent

[warm marlin]

Meh I don’t think it’s an issue

[vale pine]

they did say they create a talent tree and abilites around them

and they will all perform the same

[swift tinsel]

yeah

if you wanna zone out between each boss to swap go for it

[vale pine]

everyone on earth did know, this is impossible

[warm marlin]

if it has a week cd it would be really annoying attempting one key that needs dwarf then waiting a week to try a nelf key

[swift tinsel]

I don't see a problem with it personally

no different than talenting into a cleanse/etc

and if its available to everyone there's no gatekeeping

[left ledge]

I don’t think utility and dps should be separate tbh. I think keep passives a race thing, let the actives just be their own talents. Choose dps or utility

[vale pine]

blizz then continued to gaslight the community in saying they want a system like this, and will see how well it works out

and after colosally failing, they allowed you to switch between covenants

so basically

"we know better then you"

[lethal kettle]

honestly racials should just be outside of game performance. like bonus to professions or rep or you get a little more gold. truely race is just a how it looks or what you would like outside end game. WoW is 100% more fun if you play it for all its things, not just the sweaty .01% RWF performance

[left ledge]

I know of an npc in wow that can manage your selected racial ability too…

[vale pine]

find out, they did not know

even if you only allow dps race talents to be switched

would improve the situation a lot

would also make some things useless tho

who would intentionally select e.g. the undead one

[left ledge]

I mean they added the visage toys to solve the problem right

But they made it have some annoying ass cd

And duration issues

I think they made it clear with that, they will never give us such qol because they want the race change moneys

[vale pine]

its still 25€ iirc

[left ledge]

Though I really doubt race change makes much for them

Yeah it is

Either 20 or 25

[vale pine]

which is insane

anything more than 2-5€ is overpriced

[left ledge]

Made sense in more classical versions of the game

But yeah in current it is just crazy

[grand wyvern]

devs would probably agree, but i guess it would freak out shareholders to remove it or make it cheaper

[left ledge]

I mean the best option is to remove the visage toy, keep the price the same. Make race mostly visuals and not have these crazy actives for some while others get something useless

[vale pine]

some of the extremes got reworked

[swift tinsel]

if they made the Echanting Glamours have 1:1 duration and cooldown it would be amazing

[vale pine]

e.g. bloodelf racial

[left ledge]

The money they get from people race changing purely for a benefit has to be insanely low comparatively

[swift tinsel]

and persist through death

[left ledge]

They won’t because most race change money is cosmetic

[swift tinsel]

yeah which is annoying

and I hate it lol

[left ledge]

Yeah and deservingly tbh

[vale pine]

oh absolutely

it was too good

[chrome palm]

shoulder mog is always really bad on my female nelf, they always jut way far beyond where the actual shoulders are, so they look like they have a football harness on

[left ledge]

Aoe silence

Imagine that in m+

You’d all have to be belf

[swift tinsel]

really? I feel like they're one of the least egregious when it comes to shoulder slot scaling

male nelf sure

[chrome palm]

shoulder items just seem to be anchored to the outside of the shoulder instead of on top of them, it always looks weird to me

velf to compare, the shoulderpiece is actually covering the shoulder instead of hovering over it

the item itself is also far larger

[swift tinsel]

ah I guess I never noticed the weird anchoring

[chrome palm]

now you will never un-notice it

[swift tinsel]

https://tenor.com/view/pepe-pepeuniverse-pepeuniversenft-pepe-drink-pepe-drunk-gif-25130586

[kind river]

I have not checked llorgs yet so I will probably find my answer there but is there a popular opener deviation for mythic dimensius specifically or do you basically just perform as normal

In p3, I meant to include that

The only thing I felt I might change so far was using cold blood on the 1st sectech instead of the 2nd, I don't know that I've ever had the 2nd sectech fully complete its damage inside the burn

[quaint lodge]

You dont rupture until after your second shadow dance

Thats p much it

[quaint lodge]

And then in p3 there not much different, you can hit an early symbols so you go into the damage amp w 4 supercharger stacks

[sacred gull]

Hey my macro is not working 🙁

#showtooltip
/cast [@Dolcevìta] Shadowstep

What's the issue ? I can put any name inside the brackets it's the same, even NPC

[quaint lodge]

Is the name written correctly w the right specual character

[sacred gull]

yes

[quaint lodge]

Restart game and try

Might just be bugged

[sacred gull]

it's working if I remove brackets

[quaint lodge]

Hm personally no clue then

[sacred gull]

then which macro do rogues use to SS on DK during P1 of Dimensius ?

maybe it's differenty

i just use the same macro as tricks but for SS

maybe tricks doesn't have the same behaviour macro wise

[left ledge]

Focus step

And just focus the dk

You don’t need to focus anything else in the fight

[sacred gull]

not possible, I use my focus all the time 😄

[left ledge]

There is literally nothing to focus target on dim

[sacred gull]

my main target is always my focus

[left ledge]

???????

Why?

[sacred gull]

i tab kick and then target focus again

[left ledge]

You could just use target last target?

[sacred gull]

when I was playing outlaw with between the eyes debuff on main target in m+ i started to do this and I can't go back now

[left ledge]

You really should not make your main target your focus almost ever

You could’ve used a target last target macro instead of tying your focus down

Now you’re just gimped

There’s been a lot of people complaining about step macros with specified targets

Hopefully you can get it resolved then if you can’t use your focus

I would highly recommend breaking that habit though

[sacred gull]

i like this habit, I always get back to prio target

some good rogues do the same

[left ledge]

You could just focus kick too you know that right

Or hover kick

Ok

Suit yourself

[sacred gull]

woulb be nice to have a second focus haha

[left ledge]

You could just deal with a focus step specifically for dim

You won’t need to do it that often and it is very scripted when you will need it

Probably your only option if the target macro doesn’t work

[sacred gull]

maybe, I will keep digging in it, I am curious why this SS can't work on specific target like tricks

[left ledge]

Or you could just manually target someone before the knock and step them

[swift tinsel]

or mouseover step the unit frame

[kind river]

Thanks, I did consider the early symbols as well (we have to hold dps on pargoth anyway)

[sacred gull]

In the end I got the macro working:

#showtooltip
/cast [target=Fooshu] Shadowstep

but it only works in instances, not in openworld where I initially tried it

And here is another one:

/run T = UnitName("target")
/run if not InCombatLockdown() then EditMacro('SS DK', nil, nil, '#showtooltip\n/cast [target='.. T ..'] Shadowstep', nil); end;

Second macro is just to rewrite target name with one click, 'SS DK' being the name of my macro to rewrite, if you don't want bother typing a new name all the time, works also for tricks

Rewriting Macro is only possible out of combat

[leaden prairie]

can someone remind me bp vs evis

how much prio am i losing pressing bp

etc

what target count

[warm marlin]

BP at 4 prio loss is like 5%

[alpine wraith]

at least once for DM is a bit less of a loss

more is a bit more

but normal evis is not worth tbh to use in 4t+

coup is fire tho

[chrome palm]

definitely in db or with dh

you probably should just run pe in db

if youre with a dk at least

[alpine wraith]

db is fun because it has lots of sub min maxes

with pre SoD and shit

can also get first dance on lots of packs

[leaden prairie]

i mean

if the timer depends on the prio

why would it not be worth

[alpine wraith]

because lets put easy numbers

evis does 100k

bp does 80k

but also maybe that 20k is worth for you then it is fine

just know that

[chrome palm]

hacha, in db you are doing ST for 30s after the rest of the pack dies in db

if youre hitting powder

its irrelevant

[alpine wraith]

and that is why we learn to read the whole part!

actually hitting 1 powder for DM is also good for DMG

it makes sec tech and coup hit harder too apart from evis

so you can change it around

using only 1 bp when shit is alive

then changing to full evis as things go down

[warm marlin]

If they would die anyway to passive cleave it slows down the key tho, if only a small amount

[chrome palm]

which is why it isnt even worth rupturing imo, or using rs there

rupture the prio of course, but you can safely ignore the others

the overall damage with PE is competitive with RS in some cases as well

especially in dungeons where not only st matters, but pulls have shorter gathers

streets i think is the same, but im not sure about any others to be honest

[quaint lodge]

!fuu

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[steel haven]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[wispy pebble]

Do you guys feel like cooldown manager shadowed techniques is kinda laggy?

[prime raft]

are we gonna be bad in midnight?

[chrome palm]

https://tenor.com/view/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-fellowship-of-the-ring-the-lord-of-the-rings-lord-of-the-rings-saruman-christopher-lee-gif-21318328

[prime raft]

im so worried i do not wanna play assa or outlaw

but i also wanna bump so im praying

[chrome palm]

tuning aside, sub seems more suited to the raid than those two

in m+, if you tuned tww sub and midnight sub the same, midnight sub is the more useful spec

[prime raft]

assa tier set just reads insane maybe im over thinking it

[chrome palm]

the only thing i can say, is that the first half of the raid requires leaving the boss to hit adds, which assa is bad at

[twin quartz]

Deathstalker will be the bane of my existence if it’s anything like ansurek

At least we had vanish to come back from losing the mark

[prime raft]

no more vanish?

[chrome palm]

=> #midnight-subtlety pins

[twin quartz]

No more vanish to apply mark, so if a boss phases and you don’t have DN, then you have to wait for your mark to expire on the target elsewhere

[prime raft]

lets how trickster is the play then

[crystal atlas]

For M+ is there something I can Macro Tea to?

[hazy breach]

Dance

[prime raft]

is the midnight ptr down?

[mint swift]

How does tea even come up

Like

does your character just produce it magically

[pliant steeple]

Returning from war within, but brand new to rogue. Used a spare level boost on one. Are there any major tips yall got/any weakauras i should grab? Anything helps. Ty!

[mint swift]

If it's something like a mechagnome i can understand them having a kettle attatchment or whatnot

But like how does a regular rogue magically produce tea

[grand wyvern]

they just piss it and drink it again

[mint swift]

That sounds like a worgen thing moreso

[weak onyx]

Yo guys, i've been seeing the conversation between eviscerate and black powder up there but i didnt understand the whole bit because of all the acronyms, so sorry if what i'm talking about as already been mentionned : I wanted to ask, as sub, do i even need to use black powder ? 'im trickster obviously and i've been testing my burst rotation on dummies, 5 targets if i remember, but i noticed that spamming evi instead of black powder gives me waayy more dps even in AOE, do i do something wrong about black powder ? what's the tech? i'm following every guide rotation they're pretty much the same

thanks in advance

[vale pine]

rogues brew water during the heat of a fight

[vale pine]

pre patch is in less than 3 weeks, if you want to learn, might be worth waiting for the changes

[pliant steeple]

Heard

[wispy pebble]

Is priory big pull before second boss just mega annyoing to play because big circles or am i doing something wrong?

[quaint lodge]

Find your tank, move backwards with him

I try to tell people when im tanking if im about to do some weird ass manuever, but thats cuz its commed

[prime raft]

u use to have to lvl ur cooking for it

[leaden prairie]

whats the toughts on double on use in keys here

[vale pine]

double use is typically prefered over single on use

just gives higher dynamic, you have both forge and prism during burst phases

prism is locked in tho

[quaint lodge]

You'd have to link a log becaus eit sounds wrong, are you making sure to use unseen blade stacks as well even when using black powder to make sure ur black powder is empowered

[quaint lodge]

Think the only place its any good is like dawn and maybe streets

Otherwise feels like just wasting too much time if yo uwant everything to line up constantly

[leaden prairie]

well playing halls im pressing cds every pack so it kinda make sense

[quaint lodge]

Yeah I guess it depends on how often you wanna use netherprism

IF you wanna use it every 9 stacks or w/e it is, its fine

[tawdry rapids]

Hi all, I got my M+ talents from wowhead, but it doesn't have shiv. The M+ section recommends bringing shiv to every dungeon except ara kara. What can I change from the talent tree to put shiv in?

[vale pine]

you can bring it, but its not mandatory

there is only one dungeon shiv is useless in

because there is no enrage effect you can dispell

you can skip rushed setup

probably the easiest to do

[tawdry rapids]

thanks for the help, I'll do that

[sacred gull]

does shadowstep cancel the grab in dimensius P3 like the knock back in P1 ?

[upbeat garden]

whats normal dps for 16s?

[lofty saffron]

Lots of changes going into midnight.. are there any other expected or anticipated changes coming for sub?

[vale pine]

we don't know

bugfixes would be appreciated

[lilac stag]

Those only come after they’ve been live for ~12 months.

[vale pine]

[alpine wraith]

it is rng

every month we roll a 100 dice roll for bug fixes

need a 85 or higher then another

[pine mirage]

!macro

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:

/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave

When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.

[quaint lodge]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[narrow sparrow]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[lilac stag]

Can’t wait for that bot command to die in 3 weeks

[alpine wraith]

ehehe

now we will share presets

[vale pine]

just wait for the community to create powerauras, the new weakauras replacement

[lilac stag]

Likely accurate. I’d just get tired of the bot spam for it. Idk no shade but maybe that stuff should be in a thread for easy accesss.

Already prepping for the Sectech cancel aura macro spam

been the one nice thing about the beta channel, no real bot command spam

[lilac stag]

@alpine wraith speaking of loadouts, so it begins lol

[swift tinsel]

time is a flat circle lol

[plush roost]

Werent they called powerauras to begin with until support dropped or blizz stepped in or smthn?

Then it was "Weakauras2"

[swift tinsel]

Ye iirc powerauras is the predecessor of weakauras

wasn't it just shitty pre-made icons/textures too

[vale pine]

there is a small community iirc keeping the old addon alife

so it never died to my knowlage

weakauras was just the evolution

[swift tinsel]

I see a version for classic

[vale pine]

it was still commonly used in wod when i came back to the game

weakauras did just win with:

• the ability to write aribiary code, so you basically could create addons in weakauras
• the ability to share in game, so you did not need a addon manager to give it to your raid team

the later is also why guilds use weakauras instead of addons

[swift tinsel]

looks like WA came on the scene in firelands supposedly

[vale pine]

its a bit wild, because there are other solutions to the problem

[swift tinsel]

a lot earlier than I expected

[vale pine]

but well engineered solutions rarely win out over something thats easier or quicker to implement

basically explains why we see so many band aid fixes in wow too instead of propper ones

(and why the same or similar bugs keep surfacing again every other xpac)

[vale pine]

simc is around since cata too, but only took off later

[swift tinsel]

yeah I vaguely remember reading about simming on EJ forums way back then

[hard anvil]

Shadowcraft

[vale pine]

shadowcraft was quite popular, sadly was always behind simc in terms of accuracy

the interface was better tho

[hard anvil]

That sim, while being wrong sometimes, was ahead of its time in terms of user interface

[vale pine]

the benefit was just a instant result that was mostly fine

so you could compare things in real time

[tired ridge]

Hiya, random question regarding mythic dimensius. Are you guys saving CD's on platform 2 to have everything rdy for burn p3? Because if you use on platform 2 I keep on having stuff on CD for like the first 10-15sec or so

[lilac stag]

Assuming prog, If platform 2 is dead without you sending, you’re likely better just holding.

[tired ridge]

Gotcha, thank you. Was thinking the same thing, good to get confirmation!

[prime raft]

WA is what helped me learn sub

[chrome palm]

you can use cds on platform 2 safely if: theyre up at the start, you have blessing of autumn at some point here, and you kill pargoth after the wind cast. never use prism here

it sounds like you cant use

[fossil holly]

"in an effort to keep all specializations viable" China sub rogues get a new legendary dagger?? lol wtf

[bleak night]

in the for fun weird classic server, yes

[plush roost]

!wa

[wicked jolt]

Subtlety WAs's:
Class packs:

Fuu's Luxthos's LE's

Kieron's Devlin's guy's

Utilities:

• Shadowcraft refund sound trigger
• Deathstalker mark nameplate border
• Targets in range tracker
• :skull: Find Weakness target tracker
• Stealthi's Coup de Grace bar

[wispy pebble]

"We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually."

Why would macroing SD and SoD be a performance loss? Is blizz removing power if you use a macro?

Also why is
tea macro

/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

and not just

/cast Thistle Tea ? 😄

[prime raft]

this seem acc. if so ima cry

[warm marlin]

you dont always cast them at the same time so you would waste charges/uptime

[warm marlin]

same idea but castsequence prevents you from spamming them all away, macro will only let you cast it once every 5s

[chrome palm]

if nothing else the creator of this tier list should be anathemized for having s a+ and a as separate categories in a tier list

[pine mirage]

at how many stacks is prism more valuable than forge?

[chrome palm]

not that many

definitely <=9

[pine mirage]

okay, just thinkin at what point is more worth to hold and just send araz again

[chrome palm]

keys or raid?

[pine mirage]

for dimmy platforms

[chrome palm]

are you sending blades on every platform

[pine mirage]

Yeah

So P1 once, then hold till platform. 1st platform sending prism, then forge on 2nd and prism for dmg amp

[chrome palm]

i did that for prog, but at this point i would suggest forge first platform nothing 2nd platform, prism amp

[pine mirage]

gotcah okay okay

I try that, just feel like full stack with this much gear on p3 amp is giga

[chrome palm]

it is, thats why you would do it this way

if you did prism first platform youd only have 12 stacks for burn

[pine mirage]

Yeah had 12 stacks

[slate lantern]

Accurate in terms of those are the specs in the game

[rustic geyser]

always remember to 100% believe in every tier list you see. They are of course objective truth. Every time.

[winter ice]

You can’t do the correct opener if you have dance/symbols macrod

[tropic pier]

what is this list for

[wispy pebble]

The optimized one where i only use symbols in the second sd and after coup?

[chrome palm]

No it’s just

Never drop either in blades

Supercharge secret and maybe 2nd coup if you can

Ideally using symbols before 2nd dance

[wispy pebble]

Ah sod drops during first dance sd right?

[vale pine]

this one is accurate

[torn kestrel]

Outlaw in O-Tier 😞

[vale pine]

what does o stand for?

obsolete, obnoxious, outdated? (i am joking)

[vagrant fulcrum]

it stands for Oblique

[prime raft]

from what i seen UH DK is insane but i like this list

[vale pine]

||the list is a meme, its sorted alphabetically, s - subtlety, a - affliction, etc...||

[prime raft]

😐

i just woke up it is to early for this

[vale pine]

[prime raft]

im still gonna play sub they can cut there legs and hands off

[wild hornet]

For p3 dimmy amp, do you prefer sending cb sectec on the first sectec? I feel like the second one might be right outside of the double damage

[hazy breach]

You should get both of them inside the 100% amp

Either hold sht stacks and/or supercharger on the platform or skip the rupture

(the first is obviously better, but not always feasible)

[wild hornet]

If it's in a case where my flag is a few seconds off should I js skip rupture for the time being

I've been a bit unlucky w coup stacks recently it seems

[wild hornet]

By not always feasible, is the common factor that you get flag a little late, or no techniques/coup stacks

[hazy breach]

I mean if flag is late youre fucked either way'

But thats how it goes this late season, timers get screwed. If youre progging you should probably hold to make sure people always have the 90s for the burn

[placid elk]

time for people to outsource their self worth on tierlists made by some petko/max dude

[wild hornet]

Meta slaves shoot themselves in the foot

And I think dimmy should have a self destruct

In his Santa hat

[vagrant fulcrum]

imagine not just outsourcing it to the details meter, who needs third party websites

[random mason]

But if im tenth on the meter its surely not my fault, its just that my spec bad

[vale pine]

!sheet

[wicked jolt]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[sick epoch]

!prism

[wicked jolt]

Unyielding Netherprism
Use the trinket at the same time as Shadow Blades. What stacks you should use it on depends on your trinket combination:

• If its your only on-use trinket: Using it on 9 or 18 stacks is the same on a target dummy but in practice thing like big pulls, damage amps or timings often end up favoring the big 18 stack.
• If youre using Prism+Forge: Rotate between them each Shadow Blades regardless of stacks (so forge on pull, prism on 1:30, forge on 3:00)
• If youre using Prism+Lily: Use Lily with Blades until you have 16+ stacks of Prism, then use prism and hold Lily for next Blades.

[lunar bluff]

is this bad

the blades right after sec tec

@vale pine i know this used to be the play is it still?

[hazy breach]

Yes dont do that

[vale pine]

just use it before

[hazy breach]

You will 95% of the time lose a global doing it

Or well, not gain a global

[lunar bluff]

is it a negative now?

or just neutral?

[hazy breach]

Well you lose damage on the initial sectech hit

In exchange for nothing

[lunar bluff]

good to know, ty bb

must rewire

[hazy breach]

Because coup has a longer gcd

And we get 4 coups per cd window

The only way its worth it if you managed to press blades between exactly 0.8 and 0.99 seconds after sectech, assuming literally 0 input delay

[lunar bluff]

and also, how does sec tech work with dance

like often i get a 2nd sec tech in my first dance

do i just needto make sure the gcd of sec tech was in dance?

2nd sec tech, 1st dance, i press it here

[hazy breach]

You need to have dance up when the clones hit

[lunar bluff]

ok thats how i was playing it, i instantly refresh dance as it falls off

should i just not do that

[hazy breach]

You should

[lunar bluff]

so keep doing what ive been doing, but now press blades before sec tech?

[fleet acorn]

do we pot on nexus king mythic now on pull or still in intermission?

with the amount of dmg increase

sadly im not surre

any help?

[fleet acorn]

this boss is so bad i do no dmg at all everything dies insta

[warm marlin]

Should not be a little nooby and have the clones hit before dance ends smh

[warm marlin]

the pot is literally worth double in intermission, as long as you can actually get your burst off before dragon dies it’s worth

probably still better anyway

[lunar bluff]

can u get that? i feel like im not missing a gcd

https://medal.tv/games/world-of-warcraft/clips/lRN3FoJPHF7nWNPVN?invite=cr-MSwyUUksNDU1MDEwMw&v=17 did i @warm marlin

i feel like such a noob on sub now i dont think ive reviewed a sub pull all tier

its not always this clean, often times sec tech comes uip with like 1 left on dance

[fleet acorn]

i have no cds rdy for first 15 sec of intermission or adds on plattform

it sucks to play sub

tbh we play 8 vs 12 people on plattforms

and im assigned to 12 man

[warm marlin]

Ya consistently

[lunar bluff]

How? Don’t you need a coup for that

[warm marlin]

Sorry yes if you have the coup bug

[lunar bluff]

I don’t get coup every first dance

What’s the coup bug

[warm marlin]

I forget we not all cheesing it hard

Disorienting prepull thing like law does

Sub can do same before wipe/pull to guarantee coup in opener

Biggie damage

If you proc coup you can do it in tfd consistently without lust in my tests

Timing is tight tho

[fleet acorn]

love how im doing as sub tank dmg on living mass

[lunar bluff]

Do u target them

[lunar bluff]

Explain king

[bleak night]

Sectec for stacks

Then die if wiping

[lunar bluff]

Ah so there’s no way to guarantee unless u can sec tech deliberately before die

[fleet acorn]

no why

[lunar bluff]

It’s better for prog to hard swap

You can do infinite mass damage if you do it right

if youre in a bad guild with a bad comp that has bad mass damage, you can blast them

[warm marlin]

sectec clones also don't cleave from boss to adds, but they do cleave from melee add to boss

[warm marlin]

ye but between cloak/cheat u can usually force it

sometimes no

but its pretty consistent unless ur getting chomped

[lunar bluff]

good to know, so basically just sec tech before die?

on a wipe

[warm marlin]

ye then stop bs/ss

[lunar bluff]

kk

ryldd im gonna parse like a 30

we are a RWL guild

[warm marlin]

my goat

RIP billieelish

[lunar bluff]

i get off boss and hard swap ranged add in p1, we save dmg, adds get deleted on platforms, i dont send on platform 2

gg?

i miss my enahcen shammy

[warm marlin]

ya basically what i did for prog but we held long enough i could send plat2 and just barely get flag for amp

[lunar bluff]

i wish i could blast plat2

but also man i thought u still blades after sec tech

why didnt u check my logs and tell me

[warm marlin]

this guy thinks ive killed more than 2 raid bosses since november

[fleet acorn]

with the amount of dmg i can 2x flag p1/ p2 plattform 1 late - then p3?

[warm marlin]

i just started pressing it whenever it came up on artoshion

idc if it was a 3s blades

[lunar bluff]

this is what i do, but u should hold long enough as a raid in p1 that 130s are up on pull for platform 1

[fleet acorn]

then i have to only use 1 flag in p1?

raid is pushing

[lunar bluff]

when do you push

[fleet acorn]

short after 2min like 2:10

[lunar bluff]

im unsure then

im pretty sur eyour guild should hold

u should phase from 225ish and on

[fleet acorn]

y they killed it alrdy 10 times so im not sure i should tell them to wait xd

im the one trialing and i cant use my cds

[warm marlin]

gl with that without autumn

[fleet acorn]

y idk xd

[lunar bluff]

depending on timers, you are probs just fucked for blasting

[fleet acorn]

cant even find it in the logs where we phase p1

[lunar bluff]

the top blastings send on every platform, and have for dmg amp, i think

[fleet acorn]

y i cant blast plattform we not holding p1 we push after middle soak and knockback

then boss dies after knockback short after add spawn and soak

where do i see that on the wipes what time we pushed p1

[lunar bluff]

basically the combo of cds are weird, but it should always ATLEAST be twice in p1, once on a platform (ideally both) and then on dmg amp, and then on cd

[fleet acorn]

i need to check where my mistake is

[lunar bluff]

but with your strat, i dont know if u can send on p1 twice and then send on platform 1

[fleet acorn]

i think i need to hold p1 2nd blast

can someone help me with log quick ?

[fleet acorn]

!log

[lunar bluff]

@warm marlin wanna glance at my logs lil bro

[warm marlin]

sure

u have 4 public kills wadahelly

from november

[lunar bluff]

i dm'd u

[chrome palm]

if you potion 30s before pull, its up for amp

think about it

[warm marlin]

🧠

[azure thicket]

hitting 33-35m on some of these pulls in a floodgate 17

mmmhm

https://tenor.com/view/king-of-the-hill-pokemon-hank-hill-bobby-hill-butterfree-gif-458527303581285587

[tidal blade]

boys, can I use a 1h sword in OH or will it reduce my dam (M+)? simbot says it does by like 500k but idk if thats cooked or not thought id ask the experts

[latent finch]

!oh

[wicked jolt]

Shadow Techniques is not normalized and this makes a slow weapon (axe/sword/mace/fist) in offhand significantly weaker and almost never worth equiping.

[latent finch]

1h in oh is really really bad to the point that buying a dagger in ah is the better option

[tidal blade]

damn dawg thanks i bene trolling

[uneven scarab]

ya always daggers

[tidal blade]

🤝

[fleet acorn]

what are the equivalent seconds of a autumn? like ~ 10 sec?

ok for max. uptime its ~9 sec

chat gpt helps xd

[sullen hare]

Sorry I would've commented but I've never tasted the sweet sweet cdr of autumn

[fleet acorn]

im not too but i need to show up why i dont have cds up for plattform 1 and stand afk for 15 sec

[latent finch]

On what boss?

[fleet acorn]

dimensius

[latent finch]

Yea thats not a autumn issue thats a to much dmg issue and you dont hold dmg

[fleet acorn]

ye im telling them that in a second

and asking if i can get the autumn

cause our holy pala is autumn himself

[latent finch]

I mean to really fix that you would need to make a dmg stop and thats cringe asf ^^

[fleet acorn]

we phase even earlier at 2:13 xd

[wild hornet]

for dimmy u need to hold dmg on platform 1 and 2

[tepid trellis]

you insta push platform 1 and delay platform 2

[wild hornet]

if you push platform 1 too fast your 90s cders wont have their shit for the start of platform 2 no?

[tepid trellis]

you dont need the cds on platform 2

you just play it out

[wild hornet]

is it enough to manage to kill the 2nd platform miniboss before the 3rd set?

without a lot of the cds

kinda seemed a bit undoable

[tepid trellis]

you kill it off before winds super easy

[fleet acorn]

we pushing way too fast

idk where to use flag

[wild hornet]

hold flag on 2nd platform then

[tepid trellis]

2x p1 1x first platform 2/3x in p3 is what is normally done

[wild hornet]

since the annoying part of p2 is mostly the mechanic anyway

for p3 itd be nice to have everything

[tepid trellis]

p3 is the only "real" dmg check

cuz you will be having people dying if its prog

rest is quite the none issue

[fleet acorn]

when i use my 2x flag p1 and we push at 2:11 i have to wait 12 sec for flag on plattform 1

[tepid trellis]

3 options

ask them to stop dps for 10 sec

get autumn

or send it 12 sec late

[fleet acorn]

i alrdy have autumn

still

[fleet acorn]

7% xd

holding p1

sending first plattform

holding 2nd plattform

[wild hornet]

isnt the hpal using it as soon as they get it

[warm marlin]

what time are you actually landing on artoshions platform

[twin quartz]

Yeah I wouldn’t recommend any raid damage hold. Hell, I’ve seen some parses where p1 pushes so fast that 90s cooldowns will hold their cooldowns for about a minute to send optimally on platform 1 and they still parsed in the 90s

[chrome palm]

the difference between 90 and 99 is pretty large though no?

if the raid holds, its much better of course

for guilds progging this late though, getting people to coordinate damage and hold is just a lot harder

[twin quartz]

Definitely true

[fallen depot]

is there a way to get more coup de grace? or is it just rng

[shrewd lantern]

sectech as you're wiping because you keep the unseen blades stacks when you release

Otherwise, rng

[severe vapor]

Sub still looking like hot garbage for midnight or did they fix a little?

[odd salmon]

So on the soul hunters, how come are most top dps rogues using more eviscerate than black powder? shouldnt BP deal more dmg than evis when theres 3 targets?

[crystal bone]

this pin may be outdated even, i think its just BP at 4+

[alpine wraith]

yea you bp at 4+ with no regard of FW just for simplicity

with 3 targets with FW it is worth but why bother

for min max on soul hunters if you want if the 3 have FW you can use one bp per dance but there are lots of other things that can give more dps

like kill timer or getting autumn

[crystal bone]

also it feels like most of the time they aren't even together

[alpine wraith]

yep that is why you will do lots more dmg if you highroll some coups while they are together

[vale pine]

both is correct, its just irrelevant

i removed the find weakness target line

as its confusing

[sage spoke]

Is sub gonna be decent in midnight? How big of a gameplay shift is it?

[vale pine]

everything gets noticably simpler, you have less buttons

[sage spoke]

Nice but same concept? Very cool, thanks

[vale pine]

i try to break it down a bit

you lose some amount of rotational agency:

• The removal of rupture means you don't have to make decisions on maintainance finishers as well as how much spreading is relevant in multi target.
• Nimble flurry was reworked: This removes the decision making between storm/strike and evis/bp, you essentially get a middle ground by default where your aoe spells do enough single target damage to maintain high prio.
• You lose flagellation, cold blood and symbols of death and all your cooldowns now have a fixed cooldown - This means cooldown management became a lot simpler
  So, while the general concept is still about cooldown management and shadow dance, your cooldowns are less flexible, and your rotation is less flexible.

This is not a bad thing, many people especially rogues who don't main subtlety love the new simple version.

e.g. if you look at the recent discussion in #midnight-subtlety, opinions differ, and some see what was removed as already not relevant on retail.

[cursive vapor]

kinda late but there we go ☝️

[sage spoke]

Damn I found the fluid decision making one of the more attractive aspects to the spec

[swift tinsel]

I’ll be sad to see the all-or-nothing cd burst go but I get it not being healthy

But it made fights like soulbinder and araz super fun

[sage spoke]

Congrats man

[grand wyvern]

i personally didn't like nimble flurry cause we couldn't have decent ST or in those fights we would have been too broken

[twin quartz]

I think perhaps the problem from the ‘can’t have decent ST’ statement is that deathstalker was so poorly tuned that it was worse ST. In season 1, we played deathstalker for ST

[grand wyvern]

i think deathstalker was poorly tuned on purpose cause the gameplay with DN was too degenerate because of bugs

[twin quartz]

I feel like since the the bugs have been in place for so long that they have to be intended

[chrome palm]

this made sense in tww, but seeing as we did not get the deathstalker rework we were hoping for and they actually made it far worse, i think they just dont care, its not some deliberate strategy