lets kill 210 of em
#subtlety
left ledge
tepid trellis
you had motes which were just a dmg done
an interrupt add which was stats
shield on boss that you need to break for another dmg done buff
and the last one was cdr
limpid sage
I completely forgot about the added affixes in raid
actually the worst idea they've had
leaden prairie
you had motes which were just a dmg done
an interrupt add which was stats
shield...
the cdr was also gcd reduction
which was kinda pog im ngl
0.6 gcd outlaw or smth
tulip portal
Atm i have mythic antenna + hc prism, is mythic araz+prism better and just spend the coins on them?
Idm playing double on use
upbeat sorrel
I'd get prism first
keen dome
Someone make sure trousers are in my vault tomorrow please.
tulip portal
Yeah im going for prism first but 2nd i wasnt sure if spending coin on anything else and keepin my antenna or if its worth going for araz trinket
Seems like they both sim p much similar for me
With araz coming out like 5k more
upbeat sorrel
So in some situations araz is better like last two mythic where it's hard to get all your balls
So depends on what you need
tulip portal
We are currently prog'in king, so i assume going for araz 2nd coin is gonna be more better for prog
for last two
keen dome
Not great but also it's very quick so it doesn't matter a whole lot
copper vapor
do you just spam lfg ?
vale pine
how bad is sub for leveling again ?
rogue is considered the worse class for leveling ^^
plucky parrot
We are currently prog'in king, so i assume going for araz 2nd coin is gonna be m...
araz is probs your best bet for king + dim, but dim timings might change with more raid buffs + gear which may make double on-use worse in the longrun
for now it's great tho
just get em all
plucky parrot
true
tough wing
if you sec tech at the tail end of shadowblades, then shadowblades ends b4 all the hits happen, are ethey still buffed by shadowblades or no
minor sorrel
rogue is considered the worse class for leveling ^^
rogue is considered the worse class. Fixed it :D.
plucky parrot
if you sec tech at the tail end of shadowblades, then shadowblades ends b4 all t...
nah sec tech doesn't snapshot buffs afaik
tough wing
nah sec tech doesn't snapshot buffs afaik
appreciate the response š«”
real folio
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.
graceful osprey
how bad is sub for leveling again ?
Absolute garbonzo
Me personally, assassination is the best rogue leveling experience
placid crown
Hello guys, Remix question : do I need ColdBlood if i have 100% crit ?
for any reason
vale pine
nope
plucky parrot
appreciate the response š«”
coral hemlock
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
graceful osprey
is thistle tea in raid playable or is it complete shit?
I believe it is playable but CB pulls ahead by a few percent
soft kayak
hm ok
i absolutely do bottom dps (4.4m on loomithar) on CB (energy problems i think) is that normal or are my stats /rotation shit
short aurora
post a log
lilac stag
Sub rogue is the lowest tuned ST dps spec. assuming youāre playing correctly, Just play assa or high roll
soft kayak
lilac stag
What is that helm? 
soft kayak
i dont know shit about sub rogue, thats what a friend told me to do
short aurora
@lilac stag
soft kayak
also my helmet is a 8/8 adv helmet, its really bad
graceful osprey
I believe Loom is a bad fight for sub as well
short aurora
!mistakes
wicked joltBOT
Here are some common mistakes and how to spot them in your logs:
- Go into your log, press Timelines and Casts to the right like this
- Every single Flagellation & Blades window should look like the opener in this picture. Coup, shadowstrikes and eviscerates can move around a bit depending on procs, but all the other spells should be used exactly like this.
- Make sure you always get 8 globals off during your shadow dances. You can hover over your shadow dances to see the exact times they start, and then see if your 8th spell is within 8 seconds of that.
- If your shadow dance and/or symbols wasnt ready in time to be used like in the picture above you used too many in between your burst.
soft kayak
I believe Loom is a bad fight for sub as well
i mean im doing 4.4 (best kill) and top 100 is atleast 6.4 so im 2 mil off
lilac stag
Reread a guide.
short aurora
but you work from there
lilac stag
!guide
lilac stag
i mean im doing 4.4 (best kill) and top 100 is atleast 6.4 so im 2 mil off
And 18 ilvl off. 
soft kayak
well true
lilac stag
what are you guys dinar'ing today
Boots
soft kayak
so for raiding i basically have to play all specs?
fleet wharf
surely we're getting tuned up in ST
lilac stag
so for raiding i basically have to play all specs?
Nah just assa if you want to pump dmg
soft kayak
i mean rogue is my alt i wont be going into mythic with it
fleet wharf
isnt assa like middle of the pack? i haven't checked lately
lilac stag
sub falls off after prog
soft kayak
but i really dont enjoy assa
hazy breach
I would be insanely surprised if they make any balance adjustments on the live game before midnight prepatch
Think that ship has sailed
soft kayak
is assa really that much better in st?
graceful osprey
I donāt remember what dps was looking like on race to world first but I think comparing dps to those players might be better because they would more likely me closer to your ilvl at the time of their kill. At this point, many players have much higher ilvl and will do a lot more dps
upbeat sorrel
ass is alright
fleet wharf
huh, I should learn assa
lilac stag
isnt assa like middle of the pack? i haven't checked lately
It shot up to tippy top
As per usuals
upbeat sorrel
It shot up to tippy top
from the bug fix? or just from extra ilvl
lilac stag
bug fix + adds getting obliterated
short aurora
kill timings and value from sub decreases per overall ilvl
lilac stag
ST king again
upbeat sorrel
aight bet time to play ass for dimmy today
even the ass rogues are using double on use?
this is news to me
lilac stag
weāre on NK. Our rogue is better on Assa than sub so heās gonna swap.
lilac stag
even the ass rogues are using double on use?
They were just slow to the party.
too many buttons or something.
upbeat sorrel
i guess the little add damage would suffer if i switch to ass for dimmy platforms
lilac stag
I doubt it.
upbeat sorrel
they were dying a bit slow even when i was sub but with turbo boost maybe wont matter
graceful osprey
Just curious, what are everyoneās ilvl looking like now? Iām sitting at 719
lilac stag
maybe people just not comfy
upbeat sorrel
im around 721
lilac stag
Just curious, what are everyoneās ilvl looking like now? Iām sitting at 719
723.5 on war, 723 on rogue
upbeat sorrel
but with horrible vaults and questionable crest usage early on
fleet wharf
719 is a bit behind, but that's where I'm at rn too
upbeat sorrel
people in my raid with good vaults etc are 725+
leaden prairie
Im 728.5 you guys are noobs
graceful osprey
Hoping I donāt get shafted by the vault today
graceful osprey
Im 728.5 you guys are noobs
Holy. Are you really?
leaden prairie
Ye
graceful osprey
What a gigachad
leaden prairie
I know thanks
lilac stag
if you do hard mode weekly youāre likely 727-728 range assuming drops werenāt total crap
lilac stag
did you get your N raid done?
leaden prairie
Hardmode didn't give me any ilvl
warm marlin
No I realized one of my alts had a spark left I could use for discount
leaden prairie
Don't think hardmode helps you in any way to gain ilvl in the end
It's good early to have more pieces
But what you really need is raid slots since that's 717 ilvl
And alts
upbeat sorrel
good raid vaults that drop at high ilvl is the key
leaden prairie
Ideally you just don't upgrade anything other than one guy to get to 720
lilac stag
can also buy 2-3 pcs off ah
leaden prairie
Then you can upgrade alts with only 10 per level and idk gg
warm marlin
My mage that I burned a bunch of crests on to help main guy is also 725
lilac stag
Discount is indeed mega op
Playing rogue and warrior crests off each other. Only item Iām screwed on is shoulders. Both have heroic.
warm marlin
Time to rat some random level 80 into friend 10s and craft 727 shoulders
lilac stag
I thought about it or just crafting shoulders on rogue
upbeat sorrel
crafting shoulders not a bad idea with uncapped crests
warm marlin
Playing rogue and warrior crests off each other. Only item Iām screwed on is sho...
I am an fdk now btw
Feelsfotmman
lilac stag
Other option is cata helm and craft shoulders on war. All 4 secondaries dead even
lilac stag
I am an fdk now btw
Iāll be one next tier with fury changes.
warm marlin
I will be the sacrifice for my group so that we may never have to think about routing properly or kicks and we can just grip the world
lilac stag
kinda funny "crit" is bad for fury
fleet wharf
kinda funny "crit" is bad for fury
How do you generate something like that? I'm guessing that's from simc?
lilac stag
forbidden simc stat weights
fleet wharf
can you share the forbidden knowledge?
lilac stag
click the statweight sim in raidbots
jaunty niche
Hey All, does anyone have or know of a target tier list for 3s arena comps?
jaunty niche
better off asking in <#226359213427916800>
Thanks!
graceful osprey
its over
swift tinsel
what's over
bleak night
arms i guess
bleak night
arms players are all just buyers
swift tinsel
real
graceful osprey
Iām actually surprised how things are now. Tbh I thought sub would be lower lol
swift tinsel
idk there's only 3 fights that sub is actively not good in
the others its been quite good
upbeat sorrel
add padding this tier is keeping sub alive
they should make an affix where only sub rogues can hit the adds
swift tinsel
yeah its called prog lol
bleak night
mfw my guild has that affix on perma
swift tinsel
its my bench week this week so its gonna be funny to watch adds live twice as long on soulbinder and araz lol
lilac stag
Sub will š this week. Adds just gonna disappear by competent guilds. Players will swap to assa for ST if they care about output
lilac stag
its my bench week this week so its gonna be funny to watch adds live twice as lo...
In thought raiding was joever
swift tinsel
officially ends the 30th
lilac stag
I see
swift tinsel
or if we kill araz this week which would be hilarious
funnily enough we'd have spent the most time progging loom
lilac stag
Why not kill fract if you get araz down?
swift tinsel
idk they wanna stop at 4/8
swift tinsel
most of the guild is raid logging by now
probs a third are playing hc then logging over only for raid
lilac stag
Most every guild is raid logging now
crimson wind
Sub will š this week. Adds just gonna disappear by competent guilds. Players wi...
is it really that much better?
swift tinsel
on some fights sin has pulled ahead
lilac stag
is it really that much better?
Assaās ST is considerably better than the worst ST spec in the game.
crimson wind
im way out of the loop clearly, i didnt think sub was that terrible
swift tinsel
its just really bad at pure single target
and as burst aoe becomes less important subs contribution diminishes
quaint lodge
im way out of the loop clearly, i didnt think sub was that terrible
Yeah its the worst by a good margin
if you look at fract
Even if you look at 95% percentile, itsl ike that
crimson wind
good to know, might be worth swapping after my guild downs soul hunters mythic then
last 2 bosses it looks like sin is ahead
quaint lodge
Yeah its about the time in the season where sub falls off a cliff
lilac stag
itāll depend if you need platform dmg
Assa stonks š where one or two well geared peeps are deleting platforms
enjoy m+ as sub. 
crimson wind
yeah other bosses with adds are just getting deleted with my raid rn
might have to make the swap, thankfully a lot of the gear is the same
sub not being the ST burst spec is so funny
quaint lodge
well it is the st BURST spec, it just doesnt have anything outside of those 16 seconds LOL
quaint lodge
might have to make the swap, thankfully a lot of the gear is the same
Yeah can play with the same set of gear and be within like 3-4% of a well statted assa rogue
crimson wind
yeah ill just recraft for better stats, my other gear is fine, i have antenna and prism so i think thats still pretty solid for sin
limpid sage
it also doesn't help that our FW uptime is severely handicapped on him
quaint lodge
wdym
limpid sage
we only proc FW from the back between cds
fallow nimbus
With gloomblade baseline it wouldn't be that bad 
limpid sage
With gloomblade baseline it wouldn't be that bad <:kekw:610125925413289985>
except gloomblade is bugged and doesn't actually apply it from the front either xd
analog granite
Is sub still the best m+ spec or is assa catching up there as well?
fallow nimbus
It never was
analog granite
Because ilvl going up should benefit assa right? Since they don't hate secondaries
Lemme check
quaint lodge
Oh wait you said M+
lilac stag
Sub will still be more than fine in m+
quaint lodge
Either way, they're both p fine tbh
Assa tends to do better in places that you can always pull funnel into bosses, sub tends to do better with smaller target counts
analog granite
So basically play sub on dawn and streets and assa on the rest?
quaint lodge
yeah thats fine
analog granite
Though I can imagine sub being better in gambit? Or is assa good in mass aoe
lilac stag
Just play sub everywhere
quaint lodge
They're both pretty much within margin of "good gameplay"
can play what you enjoy and it wouldnt be much of a difference with their current tunings
lilac stag
If you know what youāre doing it slaps in any target count and isnāt reliant on a tank bringing adds to a boss to do any dmg
analog granite
Yeah reliability does seem nice
graceful osprey
Just play sub everywhere
True
shy flare
Assa doing negative boss dmg is what lead me to swap
Just felt like I was being carried
Even if topping overall
lilac stag
You were
carmine spade
Do we have a section for Midnight discussions?
bleak night
lilac stag
#midnight-subtlety though itās mostly league talk
carmine spade
Thanks š
graceful osprey
Do we have a section for Midnight discussions?
we're waiting for 13.0 over on that chat
bleak night
its ok this week we get hero talents surely
then we wait a month or two for them to iterate
then we continue dooming
bleak night
i dont really care about seeing the tier set, all of them are very basic
its just gonna be x more damage from y
hero talents will also probably be basic but might have some cool stuff
bleak night
still need to see apex talents for some specs too
i want to see mm apex talents then i go on midnight detox for a month
pastel rampart
!fuu
wicked joltBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
solemn creek
!coup
wicked joltBOT
Coup de Grace Optimizations:
- **Number 1: ** You can hold coup up to ~20 secounds and stop using finishers ~10 seconds before your Flagellation comes up on Single Target. The later is used to build up Shadow Techniques for your cooldowns.
- Number 2: ONLY with the 4 set of the new tier! -- During Shadow Blades or with 4+ targets, if you have the 4 set buff active and need to build combo points you can use Shuriken Storm to not proc Unseen Blade before using your 2nd Coup.
- Explanation: The Tier Set buff does not allow new applications of the Unseen Blades stacks, so any Unseen Blades procs between the 2 Coup casts would be wasted, this small adjustment prevents that from happening.
iron whale
@vale pine (sorry for the tag), I was thinking absurdly... if in a hypothetic scenario Blizz were to completely ERASE sub how we know it and re-build it from scratch and you end up not really liking the new gameplay... what would you do, with all you're invested in the class and all?
lilac stag
@alpine wraith watching the market today?
haughty mural
i want to see mm apex talents then i go on midnight detox for a month
ant their missing talents - since they cant live a patch without positive "rework" nowadays
lilac stag
i want to see mm apex talents then i go on midnight detox for a month
When do you swap to Hunter for prog?
haughty mural
im almost there 
lilac stag
I will support you!
bleak night
When do you swap to Hunter for prog?
I want able to play for like 3 weeks so hunter is giga far behind
Too many keys
I cant
lilac stag
lilac stag
Too many keys
It goes fast. You donāt sit in LFG like rogue.
lilac stag
yeah well. Hunter things. Hahah
I obliterated a SV in Dawn while getting 12s done on rogue.
I felt bad.
I was rooting for em
vale pine
<@194804407706189824> (sorry for the tag), I was thinking absurdly... if in a hy...
i mean, subtlety got rebuild many times now
i think the most important thing is to keep the core fantasy/apsects of the spec
e.g. cooldown managament and dance as the main cooldown
warm marlin
Has anyone experimented with some cast sequence macros for 2x on use? there are some raid fights where the regular use 13 use 14 thing will press the wrong trinket if I hold a bit and im trying to avoid making 5 distinct binds for maghar/trinkets etc
also for prism lily seems like it could be valuable
lilac stag
Arenāt the cast sequences stopped as soon as you introduce a new keypress, or am I misunderstanding what youāre trying to do?
I just did two sblades macros. racial, blades, 13 & racial, blades, 14
warm marlin
If I understand correctly you could make something along the lines of castsequence reset=90 blades 13, blades 14
But basically there are times I may want to avoid hitting maghar when itās up
lilac stag
I think as soon as you press another ability that macro goes kaboom
I havenāt messed with csmacros in a minute though
warm marlin
Or just worried my muscle memory wonāt make me hit prism before blades with lily
And Iāll lily instead by accident
lilac stag
take maghar off macro then
warm marlin
and I donāt have 2 comfy binds to make a separate prism and separate maghar bind
I would have to find a new bind ick
lilac stag
play human. 
warm marlin
bleak night
real
bleak night
dont need to bind racial to trinket if you dont have a damage racial
lilac stag
@warm marlin https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/MACRO_castsequence it sounds like it may work?
astral axle
oh isnt today dinario day?
graceful osprey
Any Will of the Forsaken enjoyers?
warm marlin
<@135762418251988992> <https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/MACRO_castsequence> it soun...
W Iāll have to cook it up
lilac stag
Lemix extending maintenance for NA beta testing.
astral axle
vale pine
Fuu done with wow when they remove dance completely from the spec.
i honestly think alpha is only so bad because of downtime
and if you align cooldowns diffrently
its better
lilac stag
Iāll reserve final judgment until itās ācompleteā but not thrilled with it so far.
smacking a few dummies vs actual gameplay can change a lot.
vale pine
same, there are many ways to make it work
but i feel like a lot of the flexibility and dynamic is still lost
keen dome
https://tenor.com/view/arnold-arnoldchwarzenegger-turbo-time-jingle-all-the-way-...
what a strange movie
lilac stag
what a strange movie
it was amazing
vale pine
whats sad, because the design goal blizz set out for themselves focuses on keeping the spec dynamic
swift tinsel
probably seen Jingle All the Way dozens of times
keen dome
it was amazing
it was but still, so strange
shut burrow
i dont see whats wrong with the spec as it currently is in s3 tww
lilac stag
whats sad, because the design goal blizz set out for themselves focuses on keepi...
this is the my biggest disappointment to date.
shut burrow
why such a big deal to make haste valid
swift tinsel
whats sad, because the design goal blizz set out for themselves focuses on keepi...
only way I can see this manifesting is having blades grant dance benefits for duration
and allowing 2x dances between each blades
shut burrow
im gonna let them keep cooking, but the early look was rough
vale pine
it would still be below the 25 we currently have on live
lilac stag
we also dont need to be in dance non-stop. we've had that "song & dance" before and it's bleh
vale pine
sure
vale pine
but i mentioned it before
shut burrow
im loving current version
vale pine
and the current live version
is something people say has too much downtime
so making the downtime higher, idk if people love the idea
lilac stag
downtime or not enough dmg outside of dance
shut burrow
i mean i understand why that is said, but it works very well people just cant stand pooling
lilac stag
i've not heard downtime, just they want more dmg outsideof dance
lilac stag
which then throttles dance down
vale pine
if your damage is not high enough during
lilac stag
can't have both
vale pine
you need low downtime damage to sustain burst
while staying relatively in line in overall performance
lilac stag
dont play a burst spec if you dont want downtime
shut burrow
but assa so BORING
lilac stag
got some news for you with 12.0
swift tinsel
true finisher spec
shut burrow
finish me in my chair ZzZz
keen dome
Downtime is important because it's optimal pun time in your group
lilac stag
if you make the time between dance interesting, people complain they dont like having to do maintance activities
then they complain the spec is boring
the more dmg outside of cds, the less your ceiling is going to be in CDs
shut burrow
the big ceiling is more fun imo
swift tinsel
agreed
shut burrow
burst is always more useful than sustain anyway in this game
vale pine
my argument would be
vale pine
all the iterations people remember well
bleak night
i like sectec being able to wipe a small village off the map
lilac stag
the subtlety conundrum, along with still being raid relevant when the burst isn't needed due to raid nerfs, ilvl scaling, etc
vale pine
are basically these 3:
- WoD HfC
- Legion DfA
- The current version
vale pine
all 3 have a very unique damage profile and high burst
lilac stag
prism is what makes it good, the spec is too convoluted on live for what you actually output without that trinket
bleak night
i will miss prism
lilac stag
the storing is the fun part for sub
swift tinsel
nah I still like the gameplay prism or not
lilac stag
HfC, DfA (setup and launch) and now current version
swift tinsel
and the profile
shut burrow
i dont have prism
keen dome
I agree with Scath. Prism is the key that unlocks so much of it's potential which is why the Apex should be prism!!
shut burrow
just never dropped
swift tinsel
insert any viable 1.5min on-use and I'd love it
vale pine
i mean bfa was fine too
graceful osprey
Yooo maintenance is taking 500 years. I need to know my vault
lilac stag
donut hole
keen dome
Yooo maintenance is taking 500 years. I need to know my vault
What's the worst items it could roll
vale pine
it still had a bursty profile due to nights vengence
an azerite power
it was a bit simpler than the other mentioned ones
shut burrow
azerite /puke
graceful osprey
What's the worst items it could roll
Iām going to get haste items, I know it
vale pine
wod hfc was probably the worse of the iterations people loved
keen dome
Iām going to get haste items, I know it
100%
swift tinsel
I love the all-or-nothing of current
lilac stag
wod hfc was probably the worse of the iterations people loved
it was perfect for the time Id argue
keen dome
Ye, i l ike current sub
swift tinsel
did I flag/dance at a good time? hell yeah
keen dome
I'm just goign to wait and see though. Who knooows.
lilac stag
people wouldnt touch that in modern m+
swift tinsel
yellow bar go up
vale pine
and having high st was rly good in raiding
swift tinsel
we vibin
bleak night
i still dont care about dungeons
swift tinsel
same
marble comet
@unkempt karma goat
swift tinsel
dungeon content is secondary or tertiary for me
vale pine
i still dont care about dungeons
i try to get myself to push keys or do more m+
swift tinsel
basically do it for more crests than raid gives on a week
keen dome
I wish Heroic raiding mattered more because it's fun. I don't care about Mythic. So M+ is fun for me.
swift tinsel
how's Fellowship? <:kekw:610125925413289985>
different ecosystem lil buddy
bleak night
i tried to push keys this season but i realized how terrible melee feels in keys for me
lilac stag
different ecosystem lil buddy
dungeons with a solo que. lol
bleak night
hunter feels way better but then i had to stop playing so never pushed on that
maybe in midnight
vale pine
but idk, mythic+ pushing lost the spark/excitement factor for me a while ago
swift tinsel
dungeons with a solo que. lol
and no raid
vale pine
and i couldn't get it back
swift tinsel
completely different gearing system
shut burrow
it just kind of kept turning more and more into a melee punishment system imo
like i do it, but id be lying if i said it was fine how it is
lilac stag
m+ biggest issue is LFG
vale pine
lfg is solveable by adding a soloq
keen dome
Give rogues a LoS AoE button.
lilac stag
idk, plenty of people get cockblocked at 15s becuase rogue
shut burrow
the main root problem rn is that you need a DK and you need a lust
so half the time theres 1 dps spot
lilac stag
while the arcane mage that has an io 500 points above their skill level gets an invite
keen dome
So are a lot of DK's
shut burrow
like idk why they are doing keys tbh
graceful osprey
Give rogues the swap ability that the rinnegan can do in Naruto
shut burrow
you have to know youre bad
lilac stag
they
dont
care
keen dome
My smoke bomb idea is free for the taking, blizzard.
shut burrow
i just dont understand the desire to go show off how much you suck
keen dome
i just dont understand the desire to go show off how much you suck
Boy howdy do people love to do this. I'm a puglord and I run a lot of heroic pugs, etc. People are incredible at showing their whole ass online
shut burrow
like they just want to go to be there for no reason
lilac stag
i just dont understand the desire to go show off how much you suck
they don't think they suck
graceful osprey
My smoke bomb idea is free for the taking, blizzard.
I donāt know why they took it out and made it a pvp talent. Smoke bomb works well in MoP. loS and damage reduction
bleak night
i mean
keen dome
When I was doing my "Put a joke in your note" as a way to vet people, the sheer volume of sexist or racists jokes people put...
lilac stag
get beat in meters? clearly that is the OP spec
bleak night
a lot of people know they suck and dont care
keen dome
Dead the entire run? Healers fault
bleak night
they just play the game because they want to play it
they dont care about getting better
and thats fine
swift tinsel
or they don't play with meters at all
lilac stag
Dead the entire run? Healers fault
just run 5 tanks
swift tinsel
and have no frame of reference for if they're performing well or not
keen dome
or they don't play with meters at all
Yeah but those people are cool and precious
People actively choosing not to be aware of their performance and not caring are vastly easier to be around than the alternative
shut burrow
lol i literally had a key a while back was a 13 or 14 dawn, FDK leader...brings a frost mage who ends up doing ~3.5m overall and he literally said "sorry im not playing the meta spec" like brother how do you think you know what you are doing on the spec you ARE playing??
swift tinsel
no Details night is a vibe in raid
vale pine
yeah people are still stupid with mages
its just about meta, you want certain raid buffs, classes or r.io scores
swift tinsel
lmao ours vanished
keen dome
My causal heroic raid grup has an aug right now for some reason
But they also can't kill Saladbar heroic after three weeks
swift tinsel
maybe that's what I'll swap to, play aug in midnight and just be confused the whole time
swift tinsel
raid-wide ebon might
shrewd lantern
instead of pugging
keen dome
Pugging is great
swift tinsel
idk homies be anxious about making friends
I know people that have legit empty friends lists
keen dome
Pugging is a lot easier most of the time because you can just walk out
vale pine
the problem with lfr is not balance
shut burrow
and thats fine
i think wasting peoples time who are trying to get score by getting carried through content beyond what you need for weekly loot is blatantly dickhead behavior tbh
vale pine
its incentive
swift tinsel
is it easier/more enjoyable with friends? typically hell yeah
shrewd lantern
is it easier/more enjoyable with friends? typically hell yeah
i dont enjoy it without tbh
vale pine
if you create a group, you are incentivised to invite whats considered op
shrewd lantern
its not a huge time commit
daring marlin
i would pug 24/7 mythic raid if it wasnt locked
bleak night
i think wasting peoples time who are trying to get score by getting carried thro...
i dont think being bad at a video game is wasting peoples time
vale pine
while in a soloq system, your incentive is to finish the key
keen dome
i would pug 24/7 mythic raid if it wasnt locked
s a m e
I really wish they'd delete the lockout
lilac stag
i think wasting peoples time who are trying to get score by getting carried thro...
that's certainly a take
bleak night
i would pug 24/7 mythic raid if it wasnt locked
the lockout is so cursed for pugging raid
shrewd lantern
yeah but people still fuck up heroic
week god knows what
you trust them with mythic?
vale pine
i would pug 24/7 mythic raid if it wasnt locked
+1 this
daring marlin
simply they are not the same people
keen dome
Man, people fuck up Mythic Plexus after having 7 kills
vale pine
i think the mythic raid restrictions are a outdated concept
swift tinsel
lmao right you should see our mythic reclears
keen dome
People fuck shit up constantly. It's not worth worring about.
shrewd lantern
idk people basically cant even do their damage right in pugs
keen dome
If Mythic raiding didn't have the dumbass lockout, you could just kick and replace and it'd be chill.
swift tinsel
idk sounds kinda gatekeepy
lilac stag
people fuck up anything in mythic typically once they start to hyperfocus on parsing
swift tinsel
yeah myth lockout needs to get swapped
shrewd lantern
yeah i just dont think it'll solve much
you got people dying to hc loom webs
over week 10
of the tier
what are we doing
swift tinsel
yep that's happened since the game came out
keen dome
And you've got Mythic raid guilds who can't consistently kill Plexus
bleak night
how would being able to replace those people not solve much
daring marlin
people failing heroic and the ones would pug mythic are not the same
shrewd lantern
its the same people
shrewd lantern
because the good players dont pug
lilac stag
it'
shrewd lantern
generally
swift tinsel
lol false
lilac stag
it's the same people
keen dome
guess I'm not a good player
bleak night
gambling your mythic lockout from the very start and being locked in entirely for the week
lilac stag
they will pug mythic as soon as ilvl / gearscore lets them
swift tinsel
you absolutely see good players pugging that's such a cooked take
shrewd lantern
i dont disagree it would help somewhat
daring marlin
if mythic lockout didnt exist then good players would pug too
bleak night
it would help massively
shrewd lantern
but also not a crazy amount
shut burrow
is not a good system
but people being bad at a video game isnt a problem i thought?
bleak night
its genuinely one of the single biggest changes they could make to make mythic raiding more accessible
shrewd lantern
i've not seen one good player in a key pug
this entire season
besides one hunter
daring marlin
I cant play the game 5 days because i am locked with my guild
keen dome
A huge amount of people in guild mythics are absolutely fucking trash and can't play the game. So much of mythic raiding is waiting for the weakest person to figure it out.
swift tinsel
hyperbolic
bleak night
but people being bad at a video game isnt a problem i thought?
not what i said but you can continue to be mad if you like
although also yes
it isnt a problem to be bad
swift tinsel
A huge amount of people in guild mythics are absolutely fucking trash and can't ...
based true and real
shut burrow
lol alright
shrewd lantern
but i mean theres also a reason i wouldnt ever join a lower mythic guild
ever agian
for that reason
bleak night
if you are conflating keys where you can just go do another one with a different group, and mythic raid where you are locked entire for a week while having to rely on 5x as many people doing well as keys
keen dome
The positive of pugging is you can be super mercenary and replace people who clearly don't get it instead of being stuck in that lockout. You'd probably not see a CE pug but you'd absolutely see a lot more 6/8M pugs than we do right now
bleak night
then you're just arguing in bad faith
shrewd lantern
i mean keys are no commitment
shut burrow
tomato potato
shrewd lantern
no mythic lockout would also be no commitment
keen dome
Yeah it'd own
bleak night
that is the point yes
shut burrow
i agree with no mythic lockout for sure
karmic harbor
hmm
keen dome
Make your own group and only take the people you think are good
karmic harbor
so if i use my flag on platform 1 dimensius
its not up for start of platform 2
that's fun
shrewd lantern
it is funny when i ask why im still the only yellow
and i get
"all apps are green garys"
bleak night
its not up for start of platform 2
need to either get blessing of autumn or fly very fast
vale pine
idk people basically cant even do their damage right in pugs
think wow has the inherent melee/ranged problem
bleak night
and insta use flag
swift tinsel
ranged is so piss easy so much of the time
shrewd lantern
^
vale pine
and mechanics who punish melees are way more severe to their output than for ranged dps
bleak night
they design like one fight a tier where ranged have to do more
daring marlin
meanwhile ranged thinks melee is piss easy
karmic harbor
it is funny when i ask why im still the only yellow
what guild aha
shrewd lantern
actual ranged in keys is the biggest joke
vale pine
and if that isn't the worse
swift tinsel
they design like one fight a tier where ranged have to do more
and you never heard the end of it
iron plover
meanwhile ranged thinks melee is piss easy
Wtf
swift tinsel
oh yeah tank movement can be so fucking bad
keen dome
They're both wrong, raid leading is the hardest thing to do.
bleak night
tbf tanks can fuck your damage as ranged too depending on the class
shut burrow
tanks nearly play your character for you as melee
swift tinsel
or awful positioning and you're scuffed
bleak night
like moving out of firestorm or stampede
vale pine
tanks most of the time don't give a shit if melees can attack the boss
swift tinsel
I had to yell at ours not to tank plexus with its ass on the laser wall
daring marlin
most tanks are braindead
keen dome
I had to yell at ours not to tank plexus with its ass on the laser wall
lmao, god, that drives me mad
swift tinsel
dude threw a fit
maiden oar
in lou i felt kinda silly playing melee bc i didnt have to do alot of mechs (sprocket drill, bandit dispels etc) but this tier it feels less strange
swift tinsel
all because i asked to move him like 1 second of S-key towards the middle
and you'd think I asked him to cut his dick off
keen dome
Pug some heroic Araz if you wanna see some tank stuff
vale pine
melees need to predict tank movement to keep decent uptime, so melees have more or less to not only adopt to the bosses design but also to each individuals tanking decision thats not good for melees
shut burrow
best tanks are also melee dps imo or at least were
bleak night
in lou i felt kinda silly playing melee bc i didnt have to do alot of mechs (spr...
sprocket was definitely one of those fights where melee was chilling
until a ranged randomly kills you
keen dome
Something I see a lot on heroic Araz is groups dropping the soak on the boss then pulling it away and just.. why
swift tinsel
our ranged die enough that melee gets more mechs lol
swift tinsel
Something I see a lot on heroic Araz is groups dropping the soak on the boss the...
um what.
maiden oar
Something I see a lot on heroic Araz is groups dropping the soak on the boss the...
2 second grace period before boss drs iirc
maiden oar
might not be 2s but theres some time to yank it
keen dome
Yeah there's a tiny window
wintry holly
!wa
wicked joltBOT
bleak night
i mean thats what my guild does in mythic
keen dome
But like.. Just drop the soak far enough away it doesn't DR at all.
keen dome
Yeah, but the key thing is this is heroic
bleak night
if it does its like a fraction of a second
swift tinsel
tbh I didn't soak a single on in heroic
bleak night
ive evolved
swift tinsel
or normal
keen dome
You should pug some Araz heroic 'cos it's hilarious how turbobad tanks are
shrewd lantern
best tanks are also melee dps imo or at least were
because no one good willingly chooses tank
keen dome
Just witnessing the strangest things
shrewd lantern
its a role someone plays once
vale pine
Pug some heroic Araz if you wanna see some tank stuff
thats the point i wanted to get to, tanking becomes way more of a hurdle if you pug as a melee.
As a ranged dps you have 40 yards to stand somewhere and are not sensitive to bad tank play
shrewd lantern
then gets stuck in it
shut burrow
because no one good willingly chooses tank
very few indeed
keen dome
thats the point i wanted to get to, tanking becomes way more of a hurdle if you ...
Yeah, absolutely. Your parse in a pug is easily fucked by a tank just doing some weird shit
shrewd lantern
no but really
healers
no healing to do: im bored
healing requirement: why are you making me play the game
vale pine
i mean we are in a organized guild
keen dome
"Please move the boss so he isn't IN THE FIRE"
swift tinsel
"Please move the boss so he isn't IN THE FIRE"
"more fire you got it boss"
keen dome
Legit had a tank move out for the charge, then never move back in. He died and goes "healers??"
Smolderon was another one you saw some wild shit on in pugs
swift tinsel
what a special lil guy
vale pine
but our tanks argued:
- You can't put the charge in a way to minimize melee uptime.
- If the "safe zone" was away from the boss, that can't be tanked better...
- It's fine for melees to sometimes not be able to reach the boss because of movement.
keen dome
Ovi'nax is still the peak of absolute insanity in pugging though
vale pine
all 3 ended upr refutable
but in the end, the tanks basically did say
"if you melee, your problem, we won't care"
in mythic progress
keen dome
wild
keen dome
So much of tank gameplay is good positoning and being aware 'cos you ain't got much else to do!
swift tinsel
100%
vale pine
so like, if this is how tanks in a guild argue/play
swift tinsel
and they complain about being bored
vale pine
i don't want to know how its wirh pugs
swift tinsel
outside of the 1 or two tank fights a tier
shrewd lantern
everything else is cruise control
from my experience healers complain more
and get pissy easier
keen dome
I get to play with an extremely good tank who goes so far out fo their way to position stuff for maximum uptime andi t owns
swift tinsel
thats because you can drop a healer if its easy for them
vale pine
tanking is easy
swift tinsel
it really is
keen dome
Raid tanking is so insanely easy yeah
swift tinsel
at least in raid
vale pine
if your only objective is to survive
swift tinsel
and you know exactly what can kill you unless you turn your brain off
bleak night
i was gone for 3 weeks of dh prog
vale pine
it becomes more difficult if you actually try to make it so your dps have a easy time
shrewd lantern
ngl is it weird my favorite tank to play with
would regularly say
"healers arent people"
XDDDD
bleak night
when i got back my raid leader was actually planning on having me do the dispel mechanic
before he was told it naturally goes to ranged
swift tinsel
hardest part of healing is sniping from other healers when it isn't your ramp/cd
vale pine
just try to survive
bleak night
my life trying to get uptime is cursed
keen dome
hardest part of healing is sniping from other healers when it isn't your ramp/cd
it's using lifegrip to kill annoying people
vale pine
ngl is it weird my favorite tank to play with
i think tank/healer dynamic is weird atm
keen dome
One of the healers I regually pug with is a godsend 'cos they lifegrip people into or out of mechanics. They saved so many Ovinax pulls by putting people on the right egg or getting them off the wrong one lmao
swift tinsel
One of the healers I regually pug with is a godsend 'cos they lifegrip people in...
this was one of ours but he hasn't played since Raz
vale pine
healers can make up for a lot of problems and mistakes, way more than they should be able to
and tanks can essentially not die
swift tinsel
guy was easily the best healer I've ever played with, his game sense was insane
keen dome
Lifegripping people out of the safe lane on Fractilus lmao
vale pine
tho the second one is funny
swift tinsel
hpriest main that just shat hps everywhere
vale pine
because tanks die harder
swift tinsel
clutch grips
vale pine
people start to gear/play them more like dps
keen dome
Yeah
vale pine
and suddenly, they can die very easy
if you use damage trinkets or don't skill in extra survivability
swift tinsel
then again he's a rocket scientist so it tracks he'd be smart
keen dome
Tanking is alot more making informed choices about what tools you need in every fight
swift tinsel
yeah just good leveraging
both of our main tanks are pwars though so they have plenty of tools
bleak night
Double pwar holy
swift tinsel
both warrior onetricks
bleak night
That's so based
swift tinsel
so no alt tanks lol
keen dome
I'm getting tired of one of ours, a DK, who complains non-stop about mobility on (heroic) fights.
Just plan your movement!
vale pine
XD
swift tinsel
oh no poor mobility lemme cry while I negate 3/4 of all mechanics
DA exists cry harder lil baby
swift tinsel
I have zero sympathy for dks or paladins
you have horse, you have deaths advance
you know when you're gonna have to move
take wraith walk if you're that concerned
bleak night
There can be fights where movement is an issue for them
But normally you just need burst movement
And horse is insane for that
swift tinsel
or you have roar/wrt/shroud sprint
swift tinsel
yeah there's plenty
tigers lust
freedom with sprint
the wheelchair meme can die
lilac stag
donāt worry @bleak night Iāll give you speed on my arms war
keen dome
Yeah, there's so much you can plan for
swift tinsel
yeah just having a modicum of awareness
vale pine
i honestly have no idea about midnight outside of rogue
keen dome
And I think a big part of it is people aren't willing to plan stuff out for raid fights or think about what's coming
keen dome
i honestly have no idea about midnight outside of rogue
Same. I've only looked at rogue and general system changes.. A lot of them look real good.
swift tinsel
I think only me and our dh actively look at timers and logs
the rest just kinda yolo stuff or do whatever Dratnos/Ready Check Pull vids tell them to
bleak night
I think its probably 50/50 in my guild but I don't really pay attention to what everyone else is doing ngl
lilac stag
tbf movement cds usually get planned out in guilds that are pushing CE.
keen dome
So few people actually learn what mechanics do
swift tinsel
honestly after every wipe ours learn a new one lol
lilac stag
we yolo the dps until we realize we need someone to save something for x or y
swift tinsel
someone will call out what killed them from the death log and it gets linked into raid chat
keen dome
We're however many weeks in and Fraciltus is still a shitshow where people clearly don't know how the fight works.
bleak night
Idk how the fight works either I turn my brain off and follow the weak aura
lilac stag
We're however many weeks in and Fraciltus is still a shitshow where people clear...
Itās simple. Just go where liquid wa tells you
keen dome
Four lanes! Four walls! Solved.
swift tinsel
we can't use the WA bc half the raid refuses to use it
keen dome
good
swift tinsel
and also they change the marks every week
so it wouldn't work anyways
unless people memorize which lanes are which symbols
lilac stag
I donāt miss early mythic raiding.
swift tinsel
which maybe a third could handle lol
lilac stag
the WA literally has a pie chart and lights up. No need for markers
keen dome
Best part of raid leading is I have to actually learn all the mechanics. It's great for being able to just do the fights
swift tinsel
I use lorrgs and timeline reminders to learn what everything does
since they have all the tooltips in those
keen dome
That's a good idea
swift tinsel
its def helpful
mythictrap.com is also a good resource bc it shows videos of every mechanic
for the more visually aligned
keen dome
Mythictrap is extremely good and what I use week 1
It's my favourite resource for heroic pugging, honestly
Their suggested solves for mechanics tend to be pug friendly
swift tinsel
same, I usually give it a good once-over before we start
yeah that part is super nice and very handy
vale pine
So few people actually learn what mechanics do
think thats a big issue in normal
first week of raid normal is completely irrelevant, you just roll over it
and it can make your heroic clear harder because nobody knows shit about the normal mechanics
swift tinsel
hell we still have people learning heroic mechanics in mythic
bleak night
i pride myself on not knowing the mechanics for as long as possible
keen dome
The amount of people who fail normal Plexus mechanics in a Mythic pug is fascinating to me
swift tinsel
should have seen our vexie kills. one-shot our first try on mythic then had to prog it again every week after
swift tinsel
idk apparently fueling and then riding the bikes was really, really hard
same with clearing oil
just could not put it together apparently
bleak night
it normally took us a couple pulls to do vexie on reclear
swift tinsel
same with bomb and frontal position on cauldron
bleak night
keen dome
I really like that Plexus is way harder
keen dome
Mechanically simple but actually harsh on DPS / heal check
Which in a pug setting is very very good
bleak night
my first time doing plexus on hunter i disengaged into the soak, got bounced out the other side, and flew into the wall
keen dome
lmao, nice
I tried to get a friend a kill. He got the soak, ran off with it, and blew the raid up.
The raid did not survive that
bleak night
we had people do that in mythic
we actually really struggled with plexus
for the first couple weeks
twin quartz
We had a trial that did that like 3 times
Caused us to take 5 pulls to kill the boss
swift tinsel
It's a normal mechanic!!! hooow, hoooooow do people fail ittttt
just wait, had to explain to one of our destro locks to havoc the tangle on loom
keen dome
Hahaha
I've yet to do a Heroic pug kill of Loom where someone doesn't die from the tank frontal
swift tinsel
he was doing like negative damage until then
ours aim them in very interesting/confusing ways
sometimes they aim it right down the lane between the middle pool and outer webs
and nuke everyone
keen dome
The tank should be trying to kill as many people as possible with them imho
It's a way to add excitement
keen dome
this is why blizz won't give me a rogue tank spec
they know I'd be an absolute menace in pugs
swift tinsel
also watching people nuke themselves into oblivion with myth loom beams
instead of just
walking out or calling for a swap
swift tinsel
our feral dying every time
keen dome
Almost dead, on fire. "I CAN TAKE IT"
swift tinsel
or I'll call for solo soak bc cloak and they swap in as soon as I cloak
keen dome
Hahaha
swift tinsel
my brother in christ I am so immune right now
like I could not be taking less beam damage
literally had to tell one of our dks to go away and shoo constantly
swift tinsel
idk it bugs me when people try and take my mechanics lol
keen dome
I used to be really big on solo soaking, but experience in pugging is that solo soaking kills people
swift tinsel
I don't always get to contribute during my downtimes so when I do, its mine
keen dome
Because, for whatever reason, the only time people want to move and help soak is when someone is trying to solo soak it with an immunity.
swift tinsel
yuuuuup
and you see them run it out and one person chasing them
no buddy system here
scram
keen dome
That person who has never soaked a mechanic in their life chasing them down suddenly
swift tinsel
lmao its always them too!!!
"gotta make up for it now and be the only one to help!"
keen dome
Maybe they're just trying to be consistent
analog granite
What are some ways to use vanish to cheese m+mechanics this season if any?
wet echo
anything channeled on you gets cancelled
or if you're getting targeted with a long cast
otherwise not too impactful
wet echo
you can skip some stealth-detecting mobs with vanish if you know how (for example the big guys at the end of gambit)
analog granite
vanishing first boss of streets so it becomes someone else's problem
Do you mean when he targets you with the root? Does it go to someone else?
analog granite
anything channeled on you gets cancelled
Does it work on the sparks? I remember vanish working on a lot of fixates in the past
wet echo
Does it work on the sparks? I remember vanish working on a lot of fixates in the...
which spark?
but yea, it often cancels fixates too
bleak night
Floodgates last boss I assume
analog granite
it picks someone else
I love this
wet echo
i don't remember testing it on sparks
bleak night
Cloaking the jail on first boss streets works
But vanish yeah just fucks over someone else
wet echo
i assume since every1 has their own spark it's not considered a "fixating mob" so it could also just not work
analog granite
If you cloak does it not go to another person?
analog granite
I'll just vanish in that case
left jungle
Is there ever going to be a rework of subtlety being rolled back? I love the current style, but I don't understand why the developers have to force me to change it. The directions of the patch they do every time makes the rogue boring
wet echo
unlikely they roll it back but they could make the rework better
or they could rework the rework
left jungle
Anyway, from what they're doing now, it seems certain that subtley rogue will be doomed. subt will be a colorless, odorless dealer
maiden oar
Anyway, from what they're doing now, it seems certain that subtley rogue will be...
dealer....
wanna buy some black powder
shrewd lantern
wanna buy some black powder
what if i want white powder
analog granite
So how does a rogue throwing black sand in someone's eyes actually hurt them enough to kill someone
left jungle
The black powder will explode
analog granite
Do you think sub rogues throw these but in black? 
tepid trellis
why is it called blackpowder when its purple?
analog granite
The plot thickens
crystal atlas
T_T
alpine wraith
<@131174440183529472> watching the market today?
had a crazy nap nope
sleek musk
!macro
wicked joltBOT
Subtlety Macros:
We do not recommend macroing your cooldowns together because most of them result in performance losses compared to using them manually.
The following macros are an exception:
/cast Shadow Dance
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null```
```yaml
/cast Shadow Blades
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Ancestral Call
/use Araz's Ritual Forge
/use Unyielding Netherprism
/use Lily of the Eternal Weave
When using diffrent macros, make sure to keep the cooldowns on a seperate key as well.
lilac stag
had a crazy nap nope
$BYND
hushed roost
717forge vs 730 antenna for nexus/dimensius?